Transcript: Coal Plants and Cabinet Shuffles | Jun 19, 2005

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON FOURTH
READING, STOKING THE POLITICAL
FIRE.

WE'RE MISSING OUR DEADLINE
BY A FEW MONTHS.

Steve says THE McGUINTY LIBERALS
BREAK THEIR PROMISE ON CLOSING
THE COAL FIRE ELECTRICITY PLANT.

Steve sits in the studio 4 guests.

Steve is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit and a gingham shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND WELCOME TO
"FOURTH READING."
JUST WHEN IT APPEARED DALTON
McGUINTY WAS ABOUT TO SHED HIS
IMAGE OF PROMISE BREAKER, THEY
ARE ANNOUNCING ANOTHER BIGGIE.
THEY PROMISED TO CLOSE ALL OF
ONTARIO'S COAL-FIRED POWER
PLANTS BY 2007 TO CUT DOWN ON
AIR POLLUTION.
HOWEVER, THIS WEEK IT DECIDED
THE DIRTIEST PLANT WILL REMAIN
OPEN UNTIL 20009.
THE GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGES
CLOSING IT SOONER COULD CAUSE A
ELECTRICITY SHORTAGES.

A clip rolls with the caption "Dwight Duncan. Ontario Energy Minister."

Dwight is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight brown hair. He wears a black suit, a white shirt, a striped tie and a pin.

He says THE PROMISE WAS A GOOD
PROMISE.
THE PROMISE IS BEING KEPT AND
OUR VIEW IS THAT BY TAKING THE
EXTRA TIME WILL ENSURE THAT WE
GET IT RIGHT AND ENSURE THAT
THERE IS NO INTERRUPTION TO...
TO THE POWER SUPPLY IN ONTARIO.

The caption changes to "John Tory. Ontario PC Leader."

John Tory is in his early late forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy light brown hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt and gold yellow tie.

He says THEY TRIED TO FOOL PEOPLE
AND THEY SUCCESSFULLY FOOLED
PEOPLE AT THE TIME OF THE LAST
ELECTION AND EVEN TODAY WHEN
THEY COME FORWARD AND SUCK IT
UP AND ADMIT THAT THEY, YOU
KNOW, THAT THE PROMISE THEY
ORIGINALLY MADE WASN'T A PLAN
AND WASN'T TO BE TAKEN
SERIOUSLY, THEY CAN'T ANSWER
BASIC QUESTIONS THAT LIE BEHIND
TODAY'S SO-CALLED PLAN, ABOUT
THE COSTS, AND LOOK AT THE
WORDING THERE.
WE'LL CLOSE SOME UNITS DOWN
MAYBE BY 2009.
THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF
WOOLLEY WORDING IN THERE THAT
TELLS YOU THEY DON'T REALLY
KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader."

Howard is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and striped tie.

He says TODAY IS A CONTINUING
DECEPTION BECAUSE THE ONLY
PLANTS THAT ARE GOING TO CLOSE,
THAT WE KNOW ARE GOING TO CLOSE
BUSINESS 2007, ARE TWO SMALL
COAL-FIRED PLANTS NEAR THE
MANITOBA BORDER THAT CONTRIBUTE
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SOUTHERN
ONTARIO'S AIR POLLUTION PROBLEM.

The caption changes to "Jack Gibbons. Ontario Clean Air Alliance."

Jack is in his late forties, clean-shaven and with very short receding white hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, blue shirt and striped tie.

He says EARLY 2009 WILL BE 100 percent
COAL-FREE.
WE'LL BE THE FIRST JURISDICTION
IN THE WORLD TO HAVE PHASED OUT
ITS COAL PLANTS TO PROTECT
PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE
ENVIRONMENT.
THIS IS A TREMENDOUS VICTORY.

The caption changes to "Tom Adams. Energy Probe."

Tom is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with very short gray hair. He wears glasses, a blue shirt and a blue tie.

He says LAST WEEK, ONTARIO IMPORTED
2,000 MEGAWATTS FROM THE U.S.
WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT WAS
COMING FROM?
A LOT OF THAT POWER WAS COMING
FROM COAL-FIRED GENERATING
STATIONS.
SO, THIS IS A POLITICAL GAME,
BUT FROM AN ENVIRONMENTAL POINT
OF VIEW AND FROM A POWER SYSTEM
RELIABILITY POINT OF VIEW, FROM
A COST POINT OF VIEW, NOT
CREDIBLE.

Steve says WELL, HERE WITH THEIR
COMPLETELY POLLUTION-FREE VIEWS
ON THE LIBERAL'S COAL-FIRED
DECISION, SEAN CONWAY, DAVE
COOK, AND THIS WEEK TONY
CLEMENTE.
WELCOME, TONY.

Tony says NICE TO BE HERE.

Tony is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with short slightly wavy graying hair. He wears glasses, a gray gingham suit and a pale gray shirt.

Steve says OK, SEAN.
THE FIRST QUESTION IS PRETTY
OBVIOUS.
IS THIS A BROKEN PROMISE?

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister."

Sean is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight light brown hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, lilac shirt and tartan tie.

He says WELL, I GUESS IN THE
STRICTEST SENSE OF THE TERM IT
IS, BUT I THINK THE PUBLIC OUT
THERE WILL GIVE THE GOVERNMENT
SOME CONSIDERATION ON THIS.
IT WAS A VERY AMBITIOUS
TIMETABLE THAT THEY SET OUT A
FEW YEARS AGO.
I THINK MISTER DUNCAN MADE PLAIN
IN THAT CLIP YOU SHOWED A
MOMENT AGO THAT THE PLAN IS TO
SHUT DOWN ALL BUT ONE PLANT BY
2007 AND THAT ONE APPARENTLY
CALLS FOR A REPLACEMENT BY
2009.

Steve says DOES IT DISTURB YOU
THAT THE WORST ONE IS LEFT OPEN
THE LONGEST?

Sean says LISTEN, I DON'T THINK
ANY OF US WOULD LIKE TO SEE
ELECTRICITY GENERATED BY THAT
WHICH POLLUTES.
THE REAL QUESTION THAT THIS
LEGISLATURE IS STILL GOING TO
HAVE TO START DEALING WITH IS
HOW IS THIS PROVINCE, A
PROVINCE THAT HAS DEPENDED ON
RELIABLE ELECTRICITY GOING
FORWARD, IT IS A VERY TOUGH SET
OF CHOICES THAT THEY FACE.

Steve says AND WE HAVE DEBATED
THOSE CHOICES MANY TIMES ON
THIS PROGRAMME.
NOT TODAY, THOUGH.
WE'RE TALKING THE POLITICS OF
IT.
TONY, THEY SAY IT IS KEEPING
THE PROMISE, IT IS JUST GOING
TO TAKE A LITTLE LONGER TO KEEP
THE PROMISE THAN THEY INITIALLY
INTENDED.
HOW FIRM IS THE GROUND THEY'RE
ON IN SAYING THAT?

The caption changes to "Tony Clement. Former PC Cabinet Minister."

Tony says WELL, I THINK IT IS
PRETTY QUICKSAND THAT THEY'RE
ON WHEN THEY START TO SAY THAT
THIS IS A PROMISE, A SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT PROMISE.
IT WAS VERY CLEAR WHAT THEY
SAID IN THE LAST PROVINCIAL
ELECTION, THEY WERE GOING TO
CLOSE IT ALL BY 2007.
THEY MOVED OFF THAT DATE IN
TERMS OF THE BIGGEST COAL
POLLUTERS WE HAVE IN THE
PROVINCE.
SO, TO ME, IT IS VERY CLEAR.
THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT
FURTHER AHEAD IF THEY SAID YOU
KNOW WHAT?
WE MADE A MISTAKE HERE, WE
KNOW THE FACTS AND HERE IS THE
PLAN.
SO, THEY MADE TWO MISTAKES.
FIRST OF ALL, THEY SAID THEY
HADN'T BROKEN A PROMISE WHEN
THEY HAVE.
AND SECONDLY WHEN THEY RULED
OUT THEIR PLAN, IT IS NOT MUCH
OF A PLAN AT ALL.
IT'S A HOPE THAT MAYBE WE'LL
GET OUR ACT TOGETHER BY 2009.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOOD
ENOUGH FOR THE CONSUMERS IN
ONTARIO.

Steve says YET THERE IS JACK
GIBBONS FROM THE CLEAN AIR
ENVIRONMENT SAYING THE LIBERALS
ARE FULFILLING THEIR COMMITMENT.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

The caption changes to "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Dave is in his early late forties, clean-shaven and with short receding brown hair. He wears a dark gray suit and a light gray shirt.

He says THEY ARE CLOSING THE
PLANTS.
I GUESS I INTEND TO AGREE WITH
SEAN THAT PEOPLE WILL FORGIVE
THEM.
AND THEY'VE BEEN SORT OF
PLAYING THIS FOR QUITE SOME
TIME.
SO, I THINK THE SOIL HAS BEEN
PREPARED...

Steve says DROPPING HINTS.

Dave says EVERYBODY KNEW THEY
WOULD HAVE TO BACK OFF THIS
PROMISE TO SOME EXTENT.
AGAIN, THOUGH THE END RESULT
IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WILL BE
JUDGED ON, AND IF THEY GO TO
THE POLLS IN 2007 AND PRICES
HAVEN'T GONE DRAMATICALLY
HIGHER, THAT IS A BIG QUESTION
MARK, AND SUPPLY HAS BEEN
RELIABLE, THEN PROBABLY PEOPLE
WILL FORGIVE THEM IN THE 2007
ELECTION.
BUT PRICING IS STILL A BIG -- A
BIG QUESTION.

Steve says LET ME PURSUE THAT
WITH SEAN.
BECAUSE EVERYONE, AND I MEAN
EVERYONE, EVERYONE TOLD THE
LIBERALS BEFORE THE 2003
ELECTION, THIS IS A PROMISE
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP.
DON'T MAKE IT.
THEY MADE IT ANYWAY.
WHAT ARE WE TO INFER FROM THAT?

Sean says WELL, I THINK POLITICIANS AT
ELECTION TIME PUT PROGRAMMES IN
FRONT OF PEOPLE THAT IN SOME
CASES ARE NOT AS CAREFULLY
THOUGH OUT FROM AN
IMPLEMENTATION STAGE AS WE
MIGHT LIKE.
AND, GEE WHIZ, THAT'S NEWS I
SUPPOSE.
AND IF YOU WANT ME TO RECITE
THE LIST FROM, YOU KNOW, FROM
THE BEGINNING, I'M HAPPY TO DO
SO.

Steve says WHAT WOULD YOU SAY
ABOUT A PROMISE THAT...

Sean says THE PUBLIC OUT THERE,
I THINK, IS A BIT MORE
PRAGMATIC AND TOLERANT THAN
WOULD LIKE.
I HAVE MY OWN VIEWS ON THE
SUBJECT.
APPARENTLY, WE'RE JUST HERE TO
TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS.
THE PUBLIC I KNOW, THE PUBLIC
WILL BLOODY WELL CARE, NOT JUST
ABOUT CLEAN AIR, AND WE ALL
WANT CLEAN AIR, BUT THEY ARE
GOING TO WANT TO KNOW IN A
COUNTRY THAT HAS COLD WINTERS
FOR FOUR, FIVE MONTHS OF THE
YEAR, OUR BLOODY LIGHTS AND
HEATERS ARE GOING TO BE KEPT ON
AND THIS, IN SOME RESPECTS, IS
VERY MUCH AN INSIDE THE BELTWAY
ARGUMENT.

Steve says YOU DON'T THINK THEY
CARE ABOUT POLITICIANS KEEPING
THEIR WORD?

Sean says OF COURSE THEY DO.
THERE IS NO POLITICIANS THAT
CANADIANS HAVE ANY REGARD TO
FOR HIS INTEL HE CANS THAN
PIERRE TRUDEAU.
HE TOOK A POSITION ON WAGING
PRICE CONTROLS IN 1977 AND 13
MONTHS LATER TOOK PRECISELY THE
REVERSE POSITION.

Steve says FOUR YEARS LATER HE
WAS OUT OF A JOB.

Sean says AND EIGHT MONTHS
AFTER THAT, RETURNED TO HIGH
OFFICE.
YOU KNOW, THERE IS A
FRUSTRATION.
I, QUITE FRANKLY, FELT ON
OCCASION, PEOPLE I KNOW -- I'VE
DOESN'T IT MYSELF.
I'VE MADE SOME COMMITMENTS THAT
ONCE I GOT INTO THE SPECIFICS
OF TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I
WAS GOING TO IMPLEMENT THE
COMMITMENT, I WISH I HAD...

Tony says THIS IS NOT LIKE THAT.
I THINK THE ISSUE HERE -- IF
THIS WAS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT.
IF THE LIBERAL PARTY OF ONTARIO
IN THE 2003 ELECTION HAD MADE
200 PROMISES AND THEY KEPT 175
OF THEM, THIS IS ONE OF THE 25
THAT MAYBE THEY WANT TO REVISIT.
BUT YOU KNOW THAT ISN'T THE
CONTEXT HERE.
THE CONTEXT HERE IS THEY
WERE SERIAL PROMISERS AND NOW
THEY'VE BECOME SERIAL PROMISE
BREAKERS.

Sean says WELL, THERE WERE
SERIAL LIARS IN THE CAMPAIGN,
TOO, WHO SAID WE'RE GOING TO
BALANCE THE BUDGET.
WE HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET AND
WE NOW KNOW THAT WAS MANIFESTLY
NOT TRUE.
I GUESS IT POCKS OF ALL OF
THEIR HOUSES AND HAND THE
POLITICAL CLASS HEARD THAT IN
RECENT TIMES?

Tony says I THINK THE PROBLEM
HERE IS YOU HAVE A GOVERNMENT
IN PLACE RIGHT NOW, THAT MADE A
SERIES OF PROMISES, ON A LOT OF
MAJOR ISSUES.
NOT ONLY ON KEEPING TAXES AT
THE SAME LEVEL, BUT ALSO ON
HIRING NEW POLICE OFFICERS AND
BY A CERTAIN DATE AND DOING
SOMETHING FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
AND I THINK IT DOES HAVE AN
IMPACT ON...

Steve says ARE YOU PREPARED TO
SAY IT WAS AN OUTRIGHT LIE,
TONY?

Tony says I THINK THEY PROBABLY
KNEW THIS WASN'T VERY
IMPLEMENTABLE BUT DID IT ANYWAY.

Dave says ALL OF THAT IS
PROBABLY TRUE.
BUT WE'RE NOW HERE TO TALK
ABOUT THE POLITICS OF IT AS IT
IS TODAY.
I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THIS AS
AN ORDINARY CITIZEN IN THIS
PROVINCE, THE GOVERNMENT WAS
PREPARING THEM FOR THIS CHANGE
SO THEY'RE NOT SURPRISED.
AGAIN, I AGREE WITH SEAN THAT
THE TWO BASIC THINGS ARE GOING
TO BE SUPPLY, RELIABLE SUPPLY...

Steve says BEFORE YOU GO THERE,
I WANT TO KNOW IS THIS AN OUT
RIGHT LIE OR REAL NAIVETY ON
THEIR PART?

Dave says I THINK THERE WERE A
LOT OF THINGS IN THEIR
PLATFORM, HAD THEY EXAMINED
THEM MORE CLOSELY, THEY COULD
HAVE KNOWN THEY COULDN'T
POSSIBLY IMPLEMENT THEM.
I DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THEY
DELIBERATELY WENT OUT AND LIED,
BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT
THIS WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO.

Steve says EVERYONE TOLD THEM
THAT.

Dave says YEAH.
BUT IF WE'RE TALK ABOUT THE
POLITICS NOW, WILL THEY PAY A
PRICE?
I THINK A LOT OF THIS HAS BEEN
FACTORED INTO THE POLLS ALREADY.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE SPRING
SESSION, THEY WENT THROUGH THE
SPRING SESSION, HAD A PRETTY
GOOD SESSION, UP IN THE POLLS
AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE A
LITTLE MORE SATISFIED WITH THIS
GOVERNMENT.
BUT A LOT MORE SATISFIED WITH
THIS GOVERNMENT THAN THEY WERE
A YEAR AGO.

Steve says A MINUTE LEFT IN THE
SEGMENT.
HOW ABOUT WE DO THIS.
WHY DON'T WE DOUBLE THE COST OF
POWER, PEOPLE WILL FINALLY
CONSERVE, WE WON'T NEED TO SHUT
THIS PLANT BY '07.

Dave says TOUGH FOR THE
INDUSTRY.
ONE OF THE IMPACTS THAT'S
HAPPENING NOW IS THERE ARE
REGIONAL IMPACTS THAT ARE VERY
SERIOUS AND NORTHERN ONTARIO,
PULP AND PAPER IS IN REAL DIRE
CIRCUMSTANCES AND IF WE'RE
TRYING TO ATTRACT MORE AUTO
PARTS PLANTS AND MANUFACTURING
IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO, PRICING...
THIS IS WHERE THE POLITICS IS
GOING TO COME TO A HEAD OVER
THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO, I THINK.

Steve says OK.
LAST WORD ON THIS, TONY?

Tony says PULP AND PAPER IS A
19 BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY IN ONTARIO
AND THEY'RE NOT SURE THEY CAN
PAY FOR THAT INDUSTRY WITH
HIGHER ENERGY COSTS.

Steve says UNDERSTOOD.
THE OPPOSITION IS CALL ON
TRANSPORTATION MINISTER TO
RESIGN, PENDING A PROBE INTO
WHETHER HE BREACHED CABINET
CONFLICT OF INTEREST GUIDELINES.
THE TORIES HAVE RELEASED
PICTURES SHOWING HE MADE A
THREE-HOUR VISIT TO A COMPANY
HE OWNS IN MISSISSAUGA.
NOW AS A CABINET MINISTER, HE
IS REQUIRED TO KEEP ALL
INVESTMENTS IN A BLIND TRUST
AND AT ARM'S LENGTH.
THE OPPOSITION ALSO SAYS THE
COMPANY'S C.E.O. IS THE TRUSTEE
OF THE BLIND TRUST AS WELL AS
BEING THE CHIEF FINANCIAL
OFFICER FOR HIS RIDING
ASSOCIATION.
WATCH.

A clip from a session at the legislature rolls with the caption "Jim Wilson. PC Transportation Critic."

Jim is in his late fifties, clean-shaven and with short receding white hair. He wears a beige suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

He says GIVEN THE IFFY CIRCUMSTANCES

Others say OHHHH!

Jim says OF YOUR MINISTER'S ACTIONS,
GIVEN THAT HIS C.F.O. FOR HIS
COMPANY IS ALSO HIS INDEPENDENT
TRUSTEE, IS ALSO THE C.F.O. OF
HIS LIBERAL RIDING ASSOCIATION,
WILL YOU NOT ASK THE MINISTER
TO STEP ASIDE AND ASK THE
INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER FOR A
FULL INVESTIGATION INTO THIS
MANNER?

Dalton McGuinty is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight brown hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and polka dotted burgundy tie.

He says THIS IS A MEETING THAT HAD
TO DO WITH THE MINISTER'S
DAUGHTER'S EDUCATION.
SPEAKER, WE -- LAST WEEK
CONFIRMED BY THE TRUSTEE
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BLIND TRUST
THE MINISTER HIMSELF HAS
REFERRED THIS MATTER
TO THE -- COMMISSIONER.
THAT MATTER IS BEING ADDRESSED
IN AN EFFECTIVE AND THE BEST
WAY POSSIBLE THAT I KNOW OF.

John Tory says HE HAD A LUNCH MEETING AT
HIS OFFICE WITH HIS WIFE FOR
FOUR HOURS AT 8:00 IN THE
MORNING.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY LUNCH
MEETINGS PEOPLE HAVE AT 8:00 IN
THE MORNING OR WITH PEOPLE
TAKING FORMAL NOTES ABOUT THEIR
CHILDREN'S EDUCATION.
I HAVE LOTS OF FAMILY,
INCLUDING MINE, HAVE LOTS OF
DISCUSSION ABOUT OUR CHILDREN'S
EDUCATION.
WE DO IT AT THE SUPPER TABLE
AND KITCHEN TABLE.
WE DON'T HAVE PEOPLE TAKEN
CAREFUL HANDWRITTEN NOTES WITH
PAGES AND PAGES OF NOTES.
WE TALK ABOUT IT AS A FAMILY.
WE DON'T HAVE LUNCH HOUR AT OUR
HOUSE AT 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

Howard Hampton says HE HAS TO GO, BUT MOST OF
ALL, MISTER McGUINTY HAS TO
ESTABLISH SOME STANDARDS.
EVERYTHING THAT HE SAID TWO
YEARS AGO ABOUT HOW HE WAS
GOING TO RUN A MORE OPEN AND
TRANSPARENT DEMOCRACY AND THAT
THE STANDARDS WERE GOING TO BE
HIGHER THAN EVER?
WELL, NONE OF THAT -- HE NOW
DISAVOWS THAT AND SAYS HE
DIDN'T MEAN ANY OF IT.
HE HAS TO FIND SOME STANDARDS.

Steve says OK.
YOU THREW, WATCHED THE MONITOR
IN THE STUDIO AND EVERYBODY AT
HOME WHO MAY NOT HAVE SEEN
THESE PICTURES YET, LET US SHOW
YOU A FEW OF THE PICTURES.
LET'S ROLL THESE.

A picture shows a man talking on the phone in front of a building. Another picture of the same man getting in a car appears.

Steve says THERE IS THE MINISTER OF
TRANSPORTATION IN FRONT OF HIS
COMPANY IN MISSISSAUGA, TALK ON
THE TELEPHONE.
THIS I GATHER IS ON THE WAY IN.
LET'S SEE THE NEXT ONE.
THERE HE IS AGAIN.
I THINK WE HAVE ONE MORE SHOT
AS WELL.
THIS IS A CONSERVATIVE RESEARCH
ASSISTANT I GUESS THAT ARRANGED
TO HAVE THESE PICTURES TAKEN
AND THERE HE IS CAUGHT ON SITE
AS IT WERE.
DID HE DO ANYTHING WRONG, SEAN?

Sean says NOT TO THE BEST OF MY
KNOWLEDGE.
AND I'M NOT AWARE OF ALL OF THE
FACTS, BUT A VERY EMINENT JURIST
WHO HAPPENS TO BE THE JUDGE OF
THE PROVINCE, IS, IN FACT,
GOING TO MAKE THAT JUDGMENT AS
HE SHOULD.
I WILL SAY THIS.
I MEAN, TWO WEEKS AGO -- OR
THREE WEEKS AGO, WE HEAR OF A
FEDERAL...

Steve says HOLD ON.

Sean says I'M NOT GOING TO HOLD
ON.

Steve says IT' ON MY LIST.
NIGH YOU WERE GOING TO GO THERE.
TONY, DID HE DO ANYTHING WRONG?

Tony says I SHOULD SAY FOR THE
RECORD, HE IS A FRIEND OF MINE.
WE KNEW EACH OTHER SOCIALLY IN
POLITICS BEFORE HIS ELECTION.
SO I WANTED TO SAY THAT.
BUT I ALSO SAY TO HIM IF HE
WERE HERE, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE NOT
ONLY GOT TO DO THE RIGHT THING
T YOU HAVE TO BE SEEN TO DO THE
RIGHT THING AND PROBABLY WAS A
LAPSE OF JUDGMENT IF YOU ARE
GOING TO HAVE ANY KIND OF
FAMILY MEETINGS TO HAVE THEM AT
THE PLACE OF BUSINESS RATHER
THAN IN HIS HOME.
LET THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
DECIDE THAT.
WHAT HE'S DONE BY THAT
ACTIVITY, WHETHER INNOCENT OR
NOT, HAS PLACED ON THE TABLE
AND THE QUESTION AND THAT
ALLOWS THE OPPOSITION TO TRY TO
GET HIS HEAD ON A SPIKE.

Steve says THE INTEGRITY
COMMISSIONER WILL DETERMINE IF
HE BROKE ANY CONFLICT OF
INTEREST GUIDELINES.
BUT DID HE DO SOMETHING POLICE
CLI SILLY?

Dave says I THINK HE DID SOMETHING
REALLY POLITICALLY SILLY.
GOING THERE AND THIS NOT BEING
THE FIRST TIME WAS JUST PLAIN
STUPID.
I THINK WHAT USEFULLY MIGHT
COME OUT OF THIS IS THAT THERE
NOW SHOULD BE SOME REAL
QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT A BLIND
TRUST REALLY IS.
AND I THINK THE ORDINARY
CITIZEN IN THIS PROVINCE WOULD
HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME
THINKING THAT THIS COMPANY WAS
PUT INTO A BLIND TRUST WHEN HIS
WIFE IS NOW THE C.E.O., WHEN
HIS TRUSTEE IS, IN FACT, HIS
C.F.O., HIS FINANCIAL OFFICER
FOR HIS RIDING ASSOCIATION, AND
USED TO BE THE C.F.O. FOR THE
CORPORATION...

Steve says HIS BLIND TRUST HAS
20-20 VISION IS WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING.

Dave says RIGHT.
THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
MAYBE IT MADE SENSE 25 YEARS
AGO WHEN SOME OF RULES BEGAN TO
DEVELOP, WHEN SPOUSES, IN
PARTICULAR, WOMEN DIDN'T PLAY
AS BIG A ROLE IN BUSINESSES AS
THEY CLEARLY DO NOW AND SHOULD.
THESE THINGS NEED TO BE
RE-EXAMINED BECAUSE YOU CANNOT
SAY THAT THIS -- I MEAN, THE
FACT THAT HE HAD A MEETING HERE
IS IRRELEVANT WHEN I READ THE
REST OF IT AND THOUGHT, WELL,
THEY'RE AT HOME TOGETHER EVERY
NIGHT AND SHE IS RUNNING THE
CORPORATION, HE IS THE MINISTER
OF CORPORATION AND THIS IS A
TRANSPORTATION BUSINESS.

Steve says OK.
SHOULD WE INDULGE IN SEAN'S
DESIRE TO PUT THE GREYMONT
CARDS ON THE TABLE?

Sean says DON'T PRESUME WHAT I
HAVE TO SAY HERE, BECAUSE I
THINK TONY AND DAVID MAKE GOOD
POINTS.

Steve says YOU DON'T LIKE THE
IDEA OF PEOPLE SPYING ON
CABINET...

Sean says TOM TORY ASKED THE
LEGISLATURE AND GOT UNANIMOUS
SUPPORT FOR LET'S TRY TO
IMPROVE THE TONE AND NOW WE'RE
CONFRONTED WITH THE REALITY
THAT WE HAVE PEOPLE GOING OUT,
SURREPTITIOUSLY TAKING
PHOTOGRAPHS AND WE'LL LET
OSBOURNE DECIDE ON THIS ONE.
I CAN TELL YOU THAT IF I SET
ABOUT TO START SURREPTITIOUSLY
PHOTOGRAPHING MY COLLEAGUES AND
MY OPPONENTS IN POLITICS OVER
TIME, I SUSPECT THAT I COULD
PRODUCE SOME RATHER INTERESTING
RESULTS.
AND I JUST DON'T KNOW WHETHER
THAT'S WHERE THE POLITICAL
CLASS WANTS TO GO.

Steve says TONY, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
AS MUCH AS HE MAY BE NOT ON
SOLID FOOTING FOR WHAT HE DID,
ARE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE
MEANS BY WHICH WE NOW HAVE THIS
INFORMATION?

Tony says WELL, I THINK THAT
THEY HAVE TO, AS AN OPPOSITION,
TRY TO CATCH THE TARGET WITH
SOME EVIDENCE.
YOU CAN'T -- THE WORST THING TO
DO FOR JOHN TORY WOULD BE TO
MAKE AN ALLEGATION WITHOUT ANY
FOUNDATION OR WITHOUT ANY
EVIDENCE.
SO, I THINK THEY WENT ABOUT
COLLECTING THEIR EVIDENCE.
I THINK JOHN TORY WOULD TELL
YOU HE IS TRYING TO EXERCISE A
LITTLE BIT OF DISCRETION IN THE
PARLIAMENT AND LEGISLATURE.
CAN I SAY THIS, TO HAVE AN
OPPOSITION PARTY, CONSERVATIVE
PARTY, ACTUALLY GET A TIP,
DEVISE A PLAN, EXECUTE THE
PLAN, AND COME UP WITH THIS
COUP IN THE LAST DAYS OF THE
LEGISLATIVE SESSION, THAT SHOWS
A LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION THAT
I'M GLAD THAT THE TORY PARTY
ACTUALLY HAS.
SO, I'M LOOKING AT IT WITH A
SILVER LINING AROUND THE CLOUD,
PERHAPS.

Steve says I WANT TO ASK ABOUT
BECAUSE YOU'VE ALL THREE
BEEN MINISTERS AND KNOW HOW
THIS WORKS.
THIS GOVERNMENT, 21 MONTHS IN
OFFICE, HAND LOST A MINISTER
YET.
THEY'VE BEEN EITHER PRETTY GOOD
OR PRETTY FORTUNATE IN THAT
REGARDS.
DAVE, I WONDER WHETHER OR NOT
AND YOUR GOVERNMENT LOST A
LOT OF MINISTERS, SOME PEOPLE
THOUGHT BECAUSE BOB RAE, YOU
KNOW, PULLED THE GUN OUT OF HIS
POCKET EVERY TIME EVERY LITTLE
THING CAME ALONG AND WAS TOO
TOUGH.
DAVID PETERSON WAS THE SAME, I
HEARD.
MAYBE BOB RUNSMAN AND SOME
PEOPLE THOUGH HE SHOULD HAVE
LOST MORE.
I GUESS WHERE I'M GOING WITH
THIS, IF YOU HAVEN'T LOST ANY,
DO YOU FIGHT TO KEEP THE STREAK
ALIVE AND WILL McGUINTY GO TO
BAT HARDER FOR THIS GUY OTHER
THAN HE OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE.

Dave says I THINK THERE WOULD
BE A LOT MORE PRESSURE IF THE
HOUSE WERE STILL IN SESSION.
I HAVEN'T HEARD THE OPPOSITION
PARTIES, EITHER, SAYING THERE'S
BEEN ANYTHING ILLEGAL HAPPEN.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.
AGAIN, IT IS BAD JUDGMENT AND I
COME BACK TO QUESTIONING THE
RULES CURRENTLY IN PLACE AND
MAYBE THEY NEED TO BE REVIEWED.
SO, IS HE DEFENDING WHAT HE
SHOULDN'T?
I DON'T THINK SO.
IF YOU CAN KEEP A CABINET
MINISTER IN YOUR CABINET AND
AVOID A LOSS, THEN POLITICALLY,
YOU'VE SCORED ONE.

Steve says TONY?

Tony says YOU ALWAYS KNOW IN
GOVERNMENT THAT IF YOU LET
CABINET MINISTERS GO TOO
EASILY, IT ONLY ENCOURAGES THE
OPPOSITION.
THE GREATEST THRILL IN
OPPOSITION, SOMETIMES THE ONLY
THRILL IN OPPOSITION, IS TO
HAVE A MINISTER'S HEAD ON A
STICK.
IF YOU LET THAT GO TOO EASILY,
THEY'LL COME BACK NEXT WEEK
WITH ANOTHER ALLEGATION, IN
YOUR VIEW, SPURIOUS ALLEGATION
AND YOU TRY TO DEFEND AS BEST
YOU CAN.

Sean says I THINK THIS
OBSERVATION.
IF ONE EXPECTS TO BE A
PERMANENT OPPOSITION PARTY,
THEN I THINK ONE JUST GOES FULL
BORE FOR WHATEVER.
I THINK ONE OF THE HAPPY
SITUATIONS WE'VE GOT IN ONTARIO
TODAY IS EACH OF THE THREE
MAJOR PARTIES HAS HAD A RECENT
EXPERIENCE IN GOVERNMENT.
AND ANY ONE OF THE REALITIES OF
THAT EXPERIENCE, ONE OF HAPPY
BENEFITS FOR THE SYSTEM, IS
THAT IF YOU'VE BEEN IN
GOVERNMENT, YOU UNDERSTAND HOW
SOME THINGS THAT DON'T LOOK
QUITE KOSHER, HOW THEY HAPPEN.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF
ANYTHING ABOUT THE...

Dave says THE THREE PARTIES
DIDN'T HAVE INPUT.

Sean says I CAN REMEMBER MY
LIFE AS A MINISTER AND WHAT
RULES WHERE.
BUT IN THE HURLEY BURRLY OF THE
MOMENT, VERY CLOSE TO DOING
SOMETHING STUPID.
NOT BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW
THEORETICALLY, BUT IT WAS A
MATTER OF DISCIPLINING MYSELF.
I GOT SOME SYMPATHY FROM NEWLY
ELECTED MEMBERS WHO BECOME
NEWLY ELECTED MINISTERS.
THAT DOESN'T, AT THE END OF THE
DAY, EXCUSE THE PROCESS.

Steve says A ROOKIE AND HAND
SPENT HIS LIFE IN POLITICS,
THAT'S FOR SURE.

Sean says THAT'S RIGHT.
I DO AGREE WITH DAVID THAT'S
TIMELY.
IT IS ALWAYS TIMELY TO LOOK AT
RULES.
AT THIS POINT, NO ONE IS
ALLEGING THAT THE MINISTER IN
QUESTION HAS DONE ANYTHING
WRONG AND HAPPILY WE MADE
CHANGES YEARS AGO TO CREATE A
RESPECTIVE JURIST WHO WOULD
ARBITRATE THOSE QUESTIONS AND
THAT THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
WILL DO IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.

Steve says IN THE MEANTIME,
SUZANNE AND ROBERT ARE STANDING
BY.
THANK YOU FOR PINCH HITTING.
DAVE, SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
POLITICIANS ARE OFTEN
CRITICIZED FOR APPOINTING ONLY
THEIR PARTISAN FRIENDS TO
GOVERNMENT POSITIONS.
WHEN IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, WE TEND
TO TAKE NOTICE AND SUCH IS THE
CASE THIS WEEK.
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS HAVE
APPOINT ADD FORMER PROMINENT
CONSERVATIVE TO GIVE THEM
ADVICE ON AN ISSUE THAT'S GIVEN
THEM NOTHING BUT HEADACHES.
HERE ARE SUSANNAH KELLY AND
ROBERT FISH WEATHER THIS WEEK'S
EDITION OF "BACK ROOM 4-1-1."

(music plays)

A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says, ROBERT AND
SUSAN WELCOME BACK.
YOU ARE NOW GOING TO, DRUM ROLL
PLEASE, TELL US THE NAME OF THE
LATEST LIBERAL EMPLOYEE WHO
WHO'S NOT A LIBERAL.

A caption reads "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

Susanna is in her forties, with short blond hair in a
Bob and bangs. She’s wearing a patterned dress, a sheer black blouse and a gold pendant necklace.

She says HIS NAME IS DR. ROBERT ALGAE
AND HE WILL BE THE CHAIRMAN OF
THE GREENBELT ADVISORY COUNCIL,
OVERSEEING THE IMPLEMENTATION
OF THE GREENBELT, WHICH WILL BE
A VERY CHALLENGING THING.

Steve says NOTHING CONTROVERSIAL
ABOUT, THAT RIGHT?

Susanna says RIGHT.

Steve says WHAT IS ON HIS PLATE
FOR STARTERS?

Susanna says JUST FOR STARTERS IS THERE
IS A MAJOR LAWSUIT THAT'S BEEN
LAUNCHED ABOUT THAT -- ABOUT
THAT AGRICULTURAL PRESERVE OUT
IN PICKERING THAT WAS PUT INTO
THE GREENBELT AMIDST GREAT
CONTROVERSY, THE DEVELOPERS WHO
OWN PARTS OF THAT WANT TO BE
ABLE TO DEVELOP IT.
SO, THAT IS SEEN AS A TEST CASE
OF WHETHER THE GREENBELT
BORDERS WILL HOLD OR NOT.
THOSE BORDERS ELSEWHERE ON THE
GREENBELT ARE VERY FLEXIBLE
BECAUSE THE MINISTER CAN CHANGE
THEM AT WILL.

Steve says AND THE KEY, OF
COURSE, IS WHAT'S IN THE
GREENBELT YOU CAN'T DEVELOP,
WHAT'S OUT YOU CAN.

Susanna says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says THAT IS WHY IT'S A
POLITICAL HOT POTATO.
PEOPLE WHO REMEMBER THIS
PROGRAMME, MAY REMEMBER BOB
ALGAE, EVEN THOUGH HE'S BEEN
OUT OF POLITICS FOR 20 YEARS.

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.
He’s wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and striped black and white tie.

He says WE COVERED HIM WHEN HE WAS
IN CABINET, A VERY FINE MAN.
THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING
APPOINTMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT.
HE IS WELL-RESPECTED ON BOTH
SIDES OF THE GOVERNMENT AND WAS
A CONSERVATIVE LABOUR MINISTER.
INTERESTING THAT TORY LABOUR
MINISTERS ARE NEVER VERY
POPULAR WITH LABOUR, BUT ALGAE
WAS THE EXCEPTION.
HE BALANCED THE BAY STREET AND
THE FELLAS ON THE SHOPPE FLOOR.
THIS IS A DIFFERENT
APPOINTMENT, BUT ONE HE HAS TO
GET THROUGH.
THEY TALK ABOUT THE GREENBELT
PLAN NOT BEING BRAIN SCIENCE,
ROCKET SCIENCE, WHATEVER YOU
WANT TO CALL IT.
IN FACT, ALGAE IS A BRAIN
SURGEON AND A LAWYER.
HE BRINGS A LOT OF VERY GOOD
SKILLS.
BUT MOST GOES BACK TO THE ONE
WITH RESPECT.
HE HAS THE RESPECT OF SO MANY
PEOPLE.

Steve says IN FACT, HE LIVES ON
LAKE SIMCOE AND YOU HAVE A
STORY COMING OUT OF THERE.
ANY SCOOP FOR US?

Susanna says YES.
THERE IS A NEW CAMPAIGN ABOUT
TO BE LAUNCHED NEXT WEEK CALLED
CAMPAIGN LAKE SIMCOE BY THE
ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENCE FUND AND
THE FEDERATION OF ONTARIO
NATURALISTS AMONG OTHERS.
IT WILL BE TO TRY AND PROTEST
SOME OF THE LAND THAT WAS LEFT
OUT OF GREENBELT ON THE WEST
SIDE OF LAKE SIMCOE.
THERE IS TREMENDOUS DEVELOPMENT
PRESSURES FOR HUGE COMMUNITIES
BEING PLANNED UP THERE AND
THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON
LAKE SIMCOE.
SO, THESE GROUPS ARE HOPING TO
GET SOME PROTECTION UNDER THE
PROVINCE'S PLACES TO GROW
PROGRAMME.
BUT THERE IS A LOT OF
GRUMBLING, QUITE FRANKLY,
BEHIND THE SCENES.
A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE
ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY ARE
UNHAPPY WITH SOME OF THOSE
GROUPS THAT WORKED BEHIND THE
SCENES WITH THE LIBERALS DURING
THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE
GREENBELT, THOUGHT THAT THEY
REALLY WERE COWED BY THE
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT WHO SAID TO
THEM, LOOK, YOU BE HAPPY WITH
WHAT YOU'RE GETTING, DON'T
COMPLAIN IN PUBLIC OR YOU WON'T
EVEN GET THAT.
AND BECAUSE OF THAT, A LOT OF
PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR A FLAWED
AGREEMENT THAT LEFT A LOT OF
FARM LAND OUT.

Robert says LIBERAL IS A RED, THEY LOVE
TO BE THOUGH OF AS BEING GREEN,
OK?
YOU HAVE A LOT OF
ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES, STEVE,
RIGHT ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
IN NORTHERN ONTARIO THIS WEEK,
FOR EXAMPLE, DAVID RAMSEY,
RESOURCES MINISTER, UNDER A LOT
OF PRESSURE TO SAY TO THE
NORTHERN PEOPLE, WE'RE
CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT'S
HAPPENING TO THE FOREST
INDUSTRY HERE.
MAYORS IN THE NORTH ARE SAYING,
WAIT A MINUTE, YOU ARE PUTTING
ALL YOUR MONEY AND ATTENTION IN
THE AUTO INDUSTRY.
WE'RE THE SECOND BIGGEST
INDUSTRY IN THIS PROVINCE, WE
WANT SOME PROTECTION.
THEY'RE TRYING TO BALANCE IN
ALL OF THIS STUFF.
AND IN SOME CASES THEY'RE
WINNING AND SOME CASES THEY'RE
NOT.
AND A LOT OF PRESSURE ON OTHERS
TO HANDLE THIS THING.

Susanna says SO, IT IS THOUGHT THAT THE
ENVIRONMENTALISTS ARE VERY,
VERY IMPORTANT OVER THE NEXT
LITTLE WHILE AND I THINK SOME
PEOPLE HAVE FELT THE MAYORS OF
THE WORLD AND THE CONSERVATIVES
HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT THERE A
LITTLE BIT ON THEIR OWN TO
WORRY ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.

Steve says WE MENTIONED EARLIER
IN THE PROGRAMME THE LIBERALS
HAVE BEEN LUCKY WITH THEIR
CABINET MINISTERS OVER THE
FIRST 21 MONTHS IN POWER.
NO ONE'S HAD TO QUIT YET.
BUT THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS
HAVE BEEN TOUGH FOR A COUPLE IN
PARTICULAR.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THIS?

Robert says LIBERALS WERE RIDING HIGH
AFTER THE BUDGET.
PEOPLE VERY HAPPY.
THE FIRST BUDGET.
YOU KNOW THE TURMOIL THAT
CAUSED.
SECOND BUDGE, VERY GOOD
REACTION, VERY GOOD RESPONSE.
THEY SEEMED TO DO THINGS THAT
FOR THE FIRST TIME LIBERAL
GOVERNMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.
ALL OF A SUDDEN, BANG, THEY
HAVE JOE CORDIANO, THE
TRANSPORTATION MINISTER GOING
OFF TO A BUSINESS, SUPPOSED TO
BE IN A BLIND TRUST AND THE
PREMIER STANDING BY.
A LOT OF LIBERALS UPSET WITH
THAT.
IT PUT A PIN IN THEIR BALLOON
AFTER THE BUDGET.
THE PREMIER IS STANDING BY BOTH
MINISTERS.
THEY WILL BOTH BE IN CABINET
EVEN AFTER THE SHUFFLE.
BUT IT'S LEFT A BITTER TASTE IN
THE MOUTH OF MANY OF THE
LIBERALS AND UPSET A LOT OF
PEOPLE THINKING IT WOULD BE NEW
AND DIFFERENT, HE WOULD SET THE
BAR HIGHER.
IN THESE TWO PARTICULAR CASES,
THERE IS QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

Steve says ALMOST GOT TO THE
SUMMER BREAK.

Robert says ALMOST.

Susanna says I THINK THAT THOSE TWO
INSTANCES WERE OBVIOUSLY QUITE
UNPLANNED.
ONE OF THINGS THAT WAS PLANED
THIS WEEK WAS THE CLIMB DOWN ON
THE COAL-FIRED NANTICOKE
STATION, THAT THEY WERE GOING
TO BREAK THE PROMISE ON THAT.
MY SOURCES SAY THEY WERE GOING
TO CLEAR THE DEX ON THAT.
THEY WANTED TO GET SOME BAD,
BROKEN PROMISES OUT THERE
BEFORE THEY BREAK -- OR BEFORE
THEY GO ON TO A CABINET
SHUFFLE, BREAK FOR THE SUMMER,
AND BRING IN POSSIBLY A THRONE
SPEECH AND GO INTO FULL
PRE-ELECTION MODES IN SEPTEMBER.

Steve says WITH JUST A MINUTE TO
GO HERE, TALK TO ME ABOUT ONE
OF THE PREMIER SENIOR MOST
ADVISERS WHO STILL, MORE THAN
TWO YEARS AWAY FROM AN
ELECTION, HAS DECIDED TO LEAVE.

Susanna says YES.
DAVID McNAUGTON HAS GONE BACK
TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, TO
STRATEGY CORP.
HE WAS SEEN, VERY INTERESTING,
VERY WELL-RESPECTED, SORT OF
THE GO-TO GUY IN THE PROMERE'S
OFFICE TO GET A LOT OF STUFF
DONE.
HE IS SEEN AS A CENTRE-RIGHT
LIBERAL.
ON THE OTHER SIDE IN THE
PREMIER'S OFFICE IS GERALD
BUTTS WHO WAS CREDITED WITH
PUTTING TOGETHER A PLATFORM
THAT GOT THEM INTO POWER, A
PLATFORM NOW THAT CAUSES A LOT
OF ROLLING OF EYES AS PEOPLE
REALIZE IMPLEMENTING SOME OF
THESE PROMISES IS IMPOSSIBLE
AND THEY'VE HAD TO BREAK SOME
OF THEM.
SO, PEOPLE ARE WONDERING WHO
WILL COUNTERBALANCE MISTER BUTTS
IN THE PREMIER'S OFFICE NOW.

Robert says TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY ELSE
LEAVING CAMELOT.
FOR MISTER MCNAUGHTON, THERE IS A
TIME TO COME, THERE'S A TIME TO
GO.
AND FOR HIM, HE HAD TO STICK IT
OUT FOR THE NEXT ELECTION.
THIS IS A TIME TO LEAVE AND
MAKE BIG MONEY IN THE PRIVATE
SECTOR AND GET OUT OF QUEENS
PARK.

Steve says DO YOU THINK IT LOOKS
ODD WITH THE PREMIER'S TOP GUYS
NOT STICKING AROUND FOR ABOUT
ELECTION?

Robert says GUYS AND GIRL, LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN COME ALL TIME.

Susanna says AND HE OBJECT SAID HE WOULD
ONLY GO IN FOR A PART OF THE
MANDAY.

Steve says HE WAS HERE FOR A
GOOD TIME, NOT A LONG TIME.

Robert says HE WAS.

Susanna says AND HE WANTED TO MAKE MONEY.

Steve says GOOD STUFF.
THANK YOU FOR THE 4-1-1.
SEE YOU AGAIN SOON.

They say THANK YOU.

Steve says THAT IS OUR PROGRAMME
FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY, THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Daniel Kitts.

Editors, Elizabeth Payne.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2005, The Ontario Educational.

Watch: Coal Plants and Cabinet Shuffles