Transcript: Adoption | Jun 05, 2005

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says LEGISLATION DIVIDES ONTARIO'S
ADOPTION COMMUNITY.

Steve sits in the studio guests.

Steve is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit and a white shirt.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY I AM
STEVE PAIKIN WELCOME TO
"FOURTH READING."
WE HAVE ALL HEARD THE STORIES
CHILDREN ADOPTED DECADES AGO
FINALLY FINDING OUT WHO THEIR
BIRTH PARENTS ARE AND BOTH
FINDING ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHICH THEY HAVE ALWAYS
WONDERED.
WELL FOR THE FIRST TIME IN
ALMOST 80 YEARS THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT WANTS TO CHANGE
ADOPTION DISCLOSURE LAWS TO
GIVE ADOPTEE AND THEIR BIRTH
PARENTS THAT INFORMATION
AUTOMATICALLY.
ONCE THE CHILD TURNS 18.
AND THE LIBERALS PROPOSE NEW
RULES APPLY RETROACTIVELY TO
ALL ADOPT BACK TO 1927.
MOST CONTENTIOUS IS THE PROVISION
THAT THE ONLY WAY TO STOP
DISCLOSURE IS FOR PRESUMABLY
BIRTH PARENTS TO APPLY TO
BOARD AND PLEAD EXCEPTIONAL
SECTION SOME SAY BILL WILL
MAKE ONTARIO WORLD LEADER AND
OTHERS SAY IN CASE SUCH AS
RAPE OR FOR THOSE WHO HAVE
KEPT PREGNANCIES SECRET FOR DECADES,
THOSE INVOLVED ARE ABOUT TO
FACE MAJOR TRAUMA.
IN A MOMENT WE WILL TALK TO AN
MPP AND BIRTH MOTHER WHO
FAVOURS AND CHANGE AND
PROMINENT JOURNALIST WHO IS HIMSELF
AND WHO HAS SERIOUS
RESERVATION.
FIRST SOME REACTION.

A clip rolls with the caption "John Tory. Ontario PC Leader."

John Tory is in his early late forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy light brown hair. He wears a black suit, yellow shirt and patterned tie.
He says IF YOU SAID TO ME THAT A
VICTIM OF SEXUAL ASSAULT WHO
HAD A CHILD AS A RESULT OF
THAT SEXUAL ASSAULT IN ORDER
TO KEEP THEIR IDENTITY PRIVATE,
SHOULD HAVE TO GO AND APPEAR
IN FRONT OF SOME STRANGERS
WHOEVER THEY ARE AND HOWEVER
WELL MEANING THEY ARE, AND
TELL STORE STREET THEY MAY
HAVE NEVER HAVE TOLD ANY ONE
INCLUDING THE POLICE EVER, IN
ORDER TO KEEP THEIR IDENTITY
PRIVATE AND BEG FOR THAT
PRIVACY I WOULD SAY THERE
SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT.

The caption changes to "Marilyn Churley. NDP Environment Critic."

Marilyn is in her early fifties, with short slightly wavy blond hair. She wears a red top and jacket.

She says THEY ARE WHIPPING UP THESE
KINDS OF CONCERNS IF THEY LOOK
AT THESE OTHER JURISDICTIONS
WE ARE NOT REINVENTING THE
WHEEL HERE.
IT ALREADY EXISTS IN OTHER
JURISDICTION AND THOSE KINDS
OF SCENARIOS JUST ARE NOT
HAPPENING.

The caption changes to "Sandra Pupatello. Minister of Social Services."

Sandra is in her early forties, with long wavy blond hair with bangs in a low bun. She wears a red top and jacket and a pair of earrings.

Steve says IN THE END IT IS VERY
EMOTIONAL ISSUE I THINK FOR
SOME PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT
WE HAVE SUBMITTED AMENDMENTS
THAT STRIKES BALANCE THAT
COVERS OFF THOSE VERY EXTREME
CASES NO ONE ON ANY SIDE OF
THE HOUSE WANTS PEOPLE TO BE
HURT BY A LAW THAT WE MIGHT
BRING IN AND WE HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL AND MINDFUL OF THAT.

Steve says WE HAVE DEBATED SOME
PRETTY TRICKY ISSUES ON THIS
PROGRAM NONE I SUSPECT AS
DIFFICULT AS THIS BUN.
JOINING US IN STUDIO THIS
WEEK.
MARILYN CHURLEY AND YOU MAY
KNOW IS BIRTH MOTHER WHO GAVE
UP HER CHILD FOR ADOPTION AND
THEN REUNITED WITH HIM AND SHE
HAS CHAMPIONED THIS CAUSE AND
LORRIE GOAL STEIN IS HERE FROM
THE TORONTO STUN AND HIMSELF
AN ADOPTED CHILD.
WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO HERE
YOU KNOW FOLKS ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE TABLE.
SEAN CONNWAY AND JANET ECKHART.
AND FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER DAVE COOK.
OKAY WE SHOULD SAY OFF OF THE
TOP THAT WE HAD INVITED
MINISTER SANDRA PUPATELLO TO BE ON THIS
PROGRAM AND AT THE LAST MINUTE
SHE WAS WE ARE TOLD CALLED
AWAY TO A MEETING WE ARE
GRATEFUL MARILYN THAT YOU COULD COME IN AT THE
LAST MINUTE AND COME UP HERE
THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A CAUSE FOR
YOU FOR A LONG TIME.

Sean says WE TRADED UP.

Steve says LET'S START MARILYN WITH
YOU THE ADOPTION ACT HAS NOT
BEEN AMENDED IN A LONG TIME SO,
IT SEEMS APPROPRIATE TO UPDATE
THE QUESTION OBVIOUSLY IS
GETTING THE BALANCE RIGHT AND
I WANT YOU TO TELL US WHY YOU
THINK THIS GOVERNMENT BILL HAS
THE BALANCE RIGHT IN TERMS OF
THE RIGHTS OF PRIVACY STORE
BIRTH PARENTS VERSUS RIGHT FOR
ADOPTED KIDS TO KNOW WHERE
THEY COME FROM?

The caption changes to "Marilyn Churley, MPP. NDP, Toronto-Danforth."

Marilyn says WELL FIRST ALL IT IS NOT
QUITE CORRECT THAT LAW HAS NOT
BEEN CHANGED IN ALL OF THOSE
YEARS IN FACT IN 1978 WAS ROSS
NEW DEMOCRATIC WHO PUT FORWARD
PRIVATE MEMBERS BILL THAT
CREATED FIRST REGISTRY IN
NORTH AMERICA AND WE WERE
LEADERS AT THAT TIME.
AND THAT'S WHAT CREATED THE
EXISTING REGISTRY WHERE THERE
HAVE TO BE MATCHES MADE AND
THE LONG WAITING LISTS AND THE
PROBLEMS CREATED REAL
TWO-TIERED SYSTEM.
I PUT FORWARD FIVE COUNT THEM
FIVE PRIVATE MEMBERS BILLS WE
DID HAVE ONE WHEN WE WERE NO
THE GOVERNMENT AS WELL.
THAT TORIES FILIBUSTERED AT
THAT TIME.
AND HERE WE ARE NOW WITH THE
LIBERALS INTRODUCING THIS BILL
WHICH IS BASED UPON MY BILL.

Steve says HAVE THEY GOT
BALANCE RIGHT?

Marilyn says IT GOES A LITTLE FURTHER
THAN MINE IN TERMS THEY HAVE
SOME DISCLOSURE VETOES
THROUGH THE TRIBUNAL FOR BOTH
PARTIES.
WHERE AS MINE WAS MORE LIKE
THE BILL IN ENGLAND AND NEW
SOUTH WHALES AND SCOTLAND
WHERE THERE IS NOT EVEN
CONTACT VETO I DID HAVE THAT
IN MY BILL.
THIS BILL IS VERY SIMILAR.
AND THAT IT HAS CONTACT VETO
WHICH MEANS YOU CAN GET THE
INFORMATION BUT YOU DON'T HAVE
THE RIGHT TO MAKE A CONTACT
NOW YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND,
THAT WE ARE FINDING EACH OTHER
LEFT RIGHT AND CENTRE,
THROUGHOUT INTERNET AND
THROUGH OTHER MEANS.
MORE AND MORE THESE DAYS.
WHERE THERE IS NO CONTACT
VETO.
FOR INSTANCE I FOUND MY SON
NOT THROUGH REGISTRY BUT
THROUGH PARENT FINDERS AND
WENT THROUGH A LONG PROCESS
AND FOUND HIM.
AND THEN WE ARE VERY CAREFUL I
WAS DYING TO GO KNOCK ON THAT
DOOR.
BUT LIKE YOU WILL TALK TO ANY
ADOPTEES OR BIRTH PARENTS HAD
IS NOT ABOUT LEGISLATING THE
RIGHT TO A RELATIONSHIP OR
CONTACT.
IT IS NOT ABOUT -- IT IS ABOUT
BALANCING THE CONSTITUTIONAL
RIGHTS AS OPPOSED TO COMPETING
NEEDS OR WANTS.

Steve says LET ME GET LORRIE IN
ON THIS.
DO YOU KNOW WHO YOUR BIRTH
PARENTS ARE?

The caption changes to "Lorrie Goldstein. The Toronto Sun."

Lorrie is in his late forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair. He wears a gray suit, beige shirt and sand beige tie.

He says NO.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO KNOW.

Lorrie says IT IS NOT IMPORTANT TO ME IF
THEY WANTED TO FIND OUT I
WOULDN'T PERSONALLY OBJECT TO
IT AND I LIKE TO GET SOME
MEDICAL INFORMATION I THINK
THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR MY
CHILDREN WHAT I WANT TO SAY
FIRST OF ALL IS THAT I HAVE NO
COMPLAINTS WITH MARILYN.
SHE GOOD MP WE DISAGREE ON LOT
OF THINGS.

Steve says NOT YET SHE HOPES TO
BE.

Lorrie says SHE WILL BE.

Marilyn says THANK YOU.

Janet says YOU JUST GOT SUN
ENDORSEMENT.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

Lorrie says WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THAT
I RESPECT WHAT SHE DID.
BOTH IN HER PERSONAL LIFE AND
WHAT SHE DID POLITICALLY
THAT'S WHAT GOOD OPPOSITION MP
DOES WHAT I AM CONCERNED WHAT
GOVERNMENT HAS PROPOSED.

Steve says WHAT IN PARTICULAR?

Lorrie says A NUMBER OF THINGS.
THE FIRST THING IS THAT THE
GOVERNMENT HAS AN EXPERT ON ISSUES
OF PRIVACY NAMED ANNE --. SHE IS THEIR EXPERT ON
PRIVACY.
LIKE THE AUDITOR GENERAL WOULD BE THEIR
ON FISCAL MATTERS.
AN INDEPENDENT PERSON OFFICER
OF PARLIAMENT HAS TOLD THEM IN
NO UNCERTAIN TIMES BY NOT
ALLOWING BIRTH PARENT AND THE
ADOPTED CHILD TO HAVE A VETO
THEY ARE RISKING TERRIBLE
REPERCUSSIONS THAT THEY DON'T
REALIZE.
I THINK THAT'S PARTICULARLY
AGGRAVATED BY THE FACT THAT
THERE ARE VICTIMS ON BOTH
SIDES OF THIS.
THERE WERE YOUNG UNWED
MOTHERS WHO WERE PROMISE THEY
HAD WOULD MEET THEIR CHILDREN
ONE DAY AND THAT NEVER
HAPPENED AND THERE ARE ALSO
PEOPLE WHO COME FROM I WAS
ADOPTED 50 YEARS AGO WITH WAS
THERE ABSOLUTELY ASSURANCES
THAT THERE WOULD BE SECRECY
FOREVER.
AND TO DO THIS RETROACTIVELY,
WE ALL KNOW, YOU ARE ALL
EXPERIENCED WHEN YOU DO
RETROACTIVE LEGISLATION YOU
ARE IN A VERY DANGEROUS AREA.

Steve says THAT'S LEGITIMATE
CONCERN THAT WE HAVE HEARD
FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE.
SPEAK TO THAT IF YOU WOULD.

Marilyn says FIRST OF ALL, THIS BILL IS
ABOUT -- IT IS RETROACTIVE ON
PURPOSE.
ALL ADOPTIONS OR MOST ALL ARE
NOW OPEN.
SO THERE WOULD NOT BE A BILL
IF WEREN'T RETROACTIVE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER
JURISDICTIONS BOTH IN THE U.S.
AND IN NORTH AMERICA,
RETROACTIVE LEGISLATION IS
DESIRABLE WHEN IT IS TO
CORRECT A WRONG IN THE PAST.
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS ONE IS
ALL ABOUT.
AND YOU FIND REMEDIES FOR...
INDIAN ACT FOR INSTANCE WHEN
WOMEN WERE DISCRIMINATED
AGAINST WAS RETROACTIVE.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT.
AND YOU MAKE THOUGH CHOICES.

Steve says JANET IS NOT SURE ABOUT
THAT.

Janet says THAT'S AN ASSUMPTION THAT
IT WAS A WRONG.

Marilyn says WE ALL KNOW THAT.

The caption changes to "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister"."

Janet is in her late forties, with short straight blond hair. She wears glasses, a white top, a light gray jacket and a brooch.

Janet says FOR YOU IT MIGHT WELL HAVE
BEEN.
BUT THINK -- AND YOU KNOW I
HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS WHO HAVE
GONE THROUGH LOOKING FOR BIRTH
PARENTS AND FAMILY MEMBERS WHO
ARE ADOPTED AND SO I HAVE SEEN
YOU KNOW -- AT SOME LEVEL THE
ANGST AND THE ISSUES AROUND
IT.
BUT, I AGREE WITH LORRIE
THAT THERE IS FUNDAMENTAL
PRINCIPAL I THINK ABOUT
LEGISLATION.
AND YOU DON'T DO THINGS
RETROACTIVELY TO CHANGE THE
RULES ON PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE
AN OPPORTUNITY TO FIGHT FOR TO
LOBBY IT.
THEY DON'T HAVE AN INFLUENCE
ON AND SECONDLY IT MAY WELL
HAVE BEEN RIGHT DECISION FOR
LORRIE'S MOTHER 50 YEARS AGO
WE DON'T KNOW THAT.
AND SO TO SOMEHOW MAKE THAT
ASSUMPTION THE GOVERNMENT TO
MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION IT WAS
WRONG I THINK IS HEIGHT OF
ARROGANCE.

Lorrie says WHAT DRIVES ME NUTS WHEN
THE MINISTER SAID THAT REASON
THEY -- THEY HAVE CHANGING IT
NOW.
SO NOW THEY HAVE GOT THIS
THING OF THE THEY WILL GO
BEFORE SOME TRIBUNAL OF
GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS.
AND SHE WAS SAYING THAT WAS
FOR THINGS LIKE THE FEAR AND
CERTAIN CULTURES OF HONOUR
KILLINGS.
FOR GOD'S SAKE.
IF THE DISCLOSURE IS THAT YOU
LET OUT CHILD FOR ADOPTION
MIGHT LEAD TO YOUR DEATH, THEN
YOU BELONG IN POLICE
PROTECTION.
YOU DON'T BELONG BEFORE
GOVERNMENT TRIBUNAL THE ONE
THING THAT LIBERALS AND EVEN
THE TORIES HAVE MISSED IS
THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE
EXTREME CASES.
H IS NOT JUST ABOUT ABUSE AND
NOT JUST ABOUT -- THIS IS
ABOUT SHE SAID THAT -- OKAY.
WELL SHE WAS ASKED WHAT IF
JUST SOMEONE DOES NOT WANT TO
GO THROUGH THIS.
AND BASICALLY THE MINISTER
SAID THEY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A
BETTER REASON THAN THAT.
I AM SORRY THAT'S WHERE I GOT
ANGRY.
BECAUSE.

Marilyn says IT IS NOT FAIR.

Lorrie says MARILYN UNDERSTANDS THIS IS
NOT ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.
I AM NOT SURE THE PRIME
MINISTER -- THE PREMIER DOES.
HE SAID WHEN HE WAS ASKED
ABOUT THIS ISSUE, IN AND ALL
WE ARE ASKING FOR SLOW DOWN.
HE TALKED ABOUT FAMILY
UNIFICATION.
WAIT A MINUTE.
YOU KNOW DON'T GET FREE PASS
Marilyn says ON THAT.
BUT IT IS MINISTER.

Lorrie says I DON'T CARE WHEN THIS IS
ABOUT REUNION.
BUT IT ISN'T PROPONENTS OF
BILL SAY THAT PEOPLE LIKE ME
ARE IN 50S.
HIS TO ME THAT WAS AN
ARGUMENT THAT PERFECT FAMILY
IS THE WALTON FAMILY THEY ALL
GROW OUT MOUNTAIN TOGETHER
AND.

Marilyn says THIS BILL IS NOT ABOUT
THAT.
HE GOT IT WRONG AND SO YOU
SHOULD GET OFF THAT.

Lorrie syas YOU ARE NOT WORRIED THAT
PREMIER DOES NOT UNDERSTAND
THE BILL.

Marilyn says WELL THE FACT IS THAT...
BIT KNOW WHAT'S IN THE BILL.
DAVE GO AHEAD.

The caption changes to "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Dave is in his early late forties, clean-shaven and with short receding brown hair. He wears a gray suit, and gray shirt.

Dave says WELL I MEAN -- YOU KNOW
THIS HAS BEEN A LONG PROCESS.
I REMEMBER FIRST GET INTO
LEGISLATURE WHEN THIS ISSUE
WAS DEALT WITH.
AND IN FACT, WE -- MY MOM MET
HER SISTER LAST YEAR.
MY MOM WAS ADOPTED AT BIRTH.
WE HAVE BEEN TRYING KEITH
NORTON WHEN HE WAS MINISTER GOT
THE ADOPTION ORDER BUT WE
COULDN'T GET MUCH INFORMATION
AND COULDN'T EVEN GET HEALTH
INFORMATION.
AND THANKS TO AT LEAST
SOME OF THE RULES IN PLACE NOW
MY MOM FOUND THAT SHE HAD
STAIRS.
HER SISTER IS 38 YEARS OLD MY
MOM IS 78.
AND IT WAS A GREAT REUNION
IT IS NOT ABOUT REALLY MAKING
UP A NEW FAMILY.
MY GRANDMOTHER AND GRANDFATHER
WILL ALWAYS BE MY GRANDMOTHER
AND GRANDFATHER.
BUT IT IS -- I MEAN -- THE
DISCUSSION AROUND THIS WHEN
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT LAWS AND
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIVACY
ISSUES KIND MISSES THE POINT
THAT PEOPLE GO THROUGH THEIR
LIVES WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN
ADOPTED NOT KNOWING SOMETHING.
NOT -- AND IF WE TALK ABOUT
CHILDREN'S RIGHTS IN THIS
PROVINCE, FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE
IS NO MORE IMPORTANT
CHILDREN'S RIGHT THAN A RIGHT
OF CHILD TO KNOW WHO HIS OR
HER BIRTH PARENTS ARE.

Steve says DO YOU DISPUTE THAT?

Lorrie says LOOK, MY POSITION IS NOT
RADICLE POSITION.
IT IS THE POSITION OF THE
PRIVACY COMMISSIONER.
THINK THEY ARE WONDERFUL.
I RAGE THEM.
I HOPE THAT THEY GO ON AND I
HOPE THAT PEOPLE ARE HELPED.
ALL I AM SAYING IS TO DO WHAT
A LOT OF OTHER JURISDICTIONS
HAVE DONE BECAUSE IF BE ARE
GOING TO RESPECT THE CHILD'S
RIGHT, WE ALSO HAVE TO RESPECT
RIGHT CHILD IF THEY DON'T WANT
TO MEET THEIR BIRTH PARENT AND
ALL WE HAVE TO DO AND WE KNOW
THAT ONLY THREE TO 5 percent OF THE PEOPLE
AFFECTED WILL INVOKE VETO FROM
PAST EXPERIENCE.
3-5 percent.
95 TO 97 percent OF THE PEOPLE WILL
DO THIS.
3-5 percent WOULDN'T FOR THEIR OWN
GOOD REASONS AND I AM SAYING,
THOSE 3-5 percent SHOULD NOT HAVE TO
GO BEFORE A GOVERNMENT
TRIBUNAL OF BUREAUCRATS TO
EXPLAIN THEMSELVES.

Steve says GO AHEAD SEAN WHERE ARE
YOU.

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister."

Sean is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight light brown hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, pale blue shirt and striped burgundy tie.

He says I HAVE BEEN AROUND THIS
DEBATE FOR OVER 30 YEAR AND
LIKE DAVE COOK I REMEMBER YOU
KNOW AS NEWLY ELECTED MEMBER
THE MID 70S, THE PASSION THAT
ATTACHES TO THIS.
AND LIKE LORRIE AND OTHERS I
CERTAINLY COMMEND MARILYN WHAT
SHE HAS DONE SHE BEEN VERY
ACTIVE AND PATH FINDING ON
THIS AS WAS ROSS MCCULLUM AND
OTHERS.
I THINK WE HAVE MADE
SIGNIFICANT ADVANCES.
BUT I HAVE TO TELL YOU, THERE
IS A BALANCE HERE.
THERE IS A SOCIAL CONTRACT AS
IT WERE AND I AM ALWAYS
WORRIED ABOUT RETROACTIVITY.
AND I THINK IT IS A VERY
DANGEROUS THING I AGREE WITH
LORRIE ON THIS ONE.

Steve says MINISTER HAS COME FORWARD AND
SAID IT IS NOT IN LAW AND
NEVER WAS IF GUARANTEED TO
BIRTH PARENTS ONCE UPON A TIME
THAT THEIR SECRETS WOULD BE
KEPT FOREVER.

Janet says THAT'S A COP OUT.

Steve says I AM REPORTING IT.

Janet says AND LET ME -- AND I WAS.

Marilyn says I WAS THERE.
I WAS MADE IN FACT I WAS ONE
OF THOSE WHO WAS PROMISED THE
OPPOSITE.
I AM ALSO SPEAKING AS FORMER
REGISTERED GENERAL.
YES PEOPLE WERE TOLD DIFFERENT
THINGS.
BUT THERE WAS NO CONTRACT WE
SHOULD GET THAT OFF OF THE
TABLE.
THERE IS WITH A NO CONTRACT.
Janet says I WAS A MINISTER OF COMMUNITY
IN SOCIAL SERVICES AND
ACTUALLY YOU AND I DID SOME
GOOD THINGS WITH ADOPTION
LEGISLATION WORKING TOGETHER
FOR INNER COUNTY ADOPTION BUT
THERE ARE -- THERE WERE
EXPECTATIONS THERE ABOUT
UNDERSTANDINGS.

Marilyn says ON BOTH SIDES.

Janet says YES.
AND WHETHER THEY WERE RIGHT OR
WRONG, IS HISTORY.
AND WE CAN'T FIX THEM.
ARE THE TRO ACTIVELY THAT'S
NOT FAIR BUT THE OTHER THING
SUE GOT IT CONTROL YOU KNOW
WHEN OUR MY STAFF AND MINISTRY
WENT AGAINST SOMETHING IN THE
PRIVACY LEGISLATION, AND ANN
DID THEY ARE JOB AND STOOD UP
AND CRITICIZED THE GOVERNMENT
I GOT TO TELL THE LIBERAL
CAUCUS IN OPPOSITION WERE UP
ON SIDE OF ME AND DOWN THE
OTHER THAT WE MADE MISTAKE WE
HAD TO FIX IT.
HOW IN GOOD CONSCIOUS CAN YOU
STARE AT THE PRIVACY
COMMISSIONER WHO IS VERY, VERY
ADAMANT ABOUT THIS AND I MEAN
IS NOT JUST -- I CAN TELL
YOU -- ASK TELL HER SHE IS
WRONG.

Dave says I WATCHED HER ON DO TV
INTERVIEW AND I MEAN I
APPRECIATE THAT ROLE.
I APPRECIATE ROLE HAD A SHE
HAS TO PLAY BUT I DON'T
THINK -- I DON'T THINK THAT...
DON'T THINK ISSUE CAN BE PUT
IN THOSE TYPES OF TERMS.
WE HAVE LEGISLATION WE HAVE
PRIVACY.
I AGREE IT IS NOTHING ON THIS
IS BLACK AND WHITE.
AND SEAN SAID I REMEMBER THE
FIRST BILL AND I REMEMBER
HOW -- I THINK IT WAS JOHN
SWEENEY WHO ACTUALLY BROUGHT
AN AMENDMENT THAT GOT TIED IN
COMMITTEE IT WAS IN MINORITY
GOVERNMENT AND IT DID DIDN'T
GO FORWARD.
IT HAS BEEN EMOTIONAL WAY
THROUGH BUT TO TRY TO PUT IN
RETROACTIVITY TERMS, AND OTHER
TERMS MISS THE POINT.
THAT THIS IS HIGHLY EMOTIONAL
FOR THE ADOPTEES.
I WOULD PUT IN TERMS ALWAYS
THAT IT IS ADOPTEE THAT HAS
THE PRIMARY RIGHT.

Janet says NO.
YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

Lorrie says DO YOU DISAGREE WITH ME
THAT, I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID,
ALL PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE ASKING
FOR, AND OTHERS FEEL MUCH
STRONGLY THAT WE ARE GOING TOO
FAR BUT SIMPLE FLY THAT, THAT
ADOPTED CHILD, AND THAT
ADOPTED CHILD, IF THEY ARE
CONTACTED BY THE BIRTH PARENT
JUST AS BIRTH PARENT IF THEY
CONTACTED BY THE CHILD -- NOT
CONTACTED BUT COULD BE
CONTACTED HAS A RIGHT TO SAY
NO.
WITHOUT DEFENDING THEIR
DECISION TO ANY ONE?

Dave says I WOULD GIVE THE RIGHT MORE
TO THE ADOPTEE.
THAT THE CHILD HAS RIGHT.

Lorrie says WAIT, WAIT.

Marilyn says LET'S BE CLEAR ON THIS.
OKAY.
THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.
TO SAY NO.
TO CONTACT OR RELATIONSHIP.
YES.

Lorrie says WAIT A MINUTE.

Marilyn says YES THEY DO I KNOW THIS
BILL.

Lorrie says I KNOW IT, TOO.

Janet says I MEAN...

Steve says LET HER FINISH.

Marilyn says I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS
A LONG TIME.
THERE IS NO RIGHT TO CONTACT
OR RELATIONSHIP.
RIGHT IS TO GET FOR THE
ADOPTEE TO GET THEIR ORIGINAL
BIRTH INFORMATION AND FOR THE
BIRTH PARENTS TO GET IT AS
WELL.
LET ME BE CLEAR HERE.
RIGHT NOW AND YOU WOULD KNOW
THIS IN YOUR MINISTRY, PEOPLE
CAN GET SOMETHING CALLED NON
IDENTIFYING INFORMATION.
WHICH IS WHAT HELPED DAVE AND
I FIND OUR RESPECTIVE
RELATIVES.
AND ALREADY PEOPLE ARE
FINDING EACH OTHER THROUGH
THOSE MEANS.
AND OTHER MEANS ON SOME BIRTH
CERTIFICATES IN FACT BEFORE
1969, THE MOTHER'S NAME WAS ON
THE ADOPTION ORDER.
WHICH WAS GIVEN TO THE
ADOPTIVE PARENTS.
SO, IN FACT, IT WOULD BE
FAIRLY EASY I DON'T KNOW WHAT
HAPPENED WITH YOU THAT JUST
CHANGED IN 1969.
AND IT WAS STILL SOME GOT
NUMBERS AFTER 69 AND SOME GOT
THE FULL BIRTH NAME ON THE
ADOPTION ORDER.
AND SO PEOPLE -- I WILL
FINNISH ONE SECOND SO PEOPLE
ARE FINDING EACH OTHER ANY
AWAY.
WITHOUT A CONTACT VETO.
AND IN FACT WHAT THIS BILL
DOES IS FOR THE FIRST TIME
EVER, EVEN AS WE FIND EACH
OTHER OUTSIDE OF THE SYSTEM,
WE WILL SAY, YOU CANNOT...
THERE BE AN OFFENSE IF YOUR
MOTHER WERE TO GET YOUR
INFORMATION WHICH DOES NOT
EXIST NOW.

Lorrie says BEFORE THEY SORT OF PANICKED
AND PUT IN THIS TRIBUNAL,
WHICH THINK NOW THEY ARE
REGRETTING, WHAT -- LOOK HOW
THEY TREATED IT.
OKAY.
WE WILL GIVE YOU THE
IDENTIFYING INFORMATION SO YOU
ARE OPENING UP -- YOU ARE
LETTING AGAIN KNEE OUT OF THE
BOTTLE.
WE WILL TEST TELL YOU WHO ARE
THIS WE REALIZE MAY TROUBLED
PERSON YOU FEEL YOU NEED THIS
TO COMPLETE YOU.
BUT THEY HAVE SAID NO CONTACT.
SO, IF YOU DO CONTACT WE ARE
GOING TO FINE UP TO 50,000 DOLLARS.
NOW.
I JUST ASKED YOU TO CONSIDER.
IF SOMEONE IS SO -- AND I
RESPECT THIS BECAUSE I WAS
VERY FORTUNATE OTHERS WEREN'T.
IF THEY FEEL SO INCOMPLETE,
AND THEN THEY -- THEN IT HELD
OUT TO THEM HERE IS THE
PERSON -- IS HERE THE PERSON
AND THEN YOU SAY.

Steve says HE WILL DO IT ANYWAY.

Lorrie says WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO
FINE THEM THROW THEM IN JAIL?

Dave says I REALLY OBJECT TO USING
THE TERM SO INCOMPLETE.
I DON'T THINK IT IS A MATTER
OF SOMEONE BEING SO INCOMPLETE
IT IS A MATTER OF HAVING THE
RIGHT AND HAVING CURIOSITY.
WANTING TO KNOW WE DON'T
DISAGREE.

Lorrie says ALL I AM SAYING WHY IT
DOESN'T THE OTHER PARTY HAVE
EQUAL RIGHT TO SAY NO.

Sean says THAT'S ISSUE HERE IT HAS TO
BE A BALANCING OF RIGHTS.
I THINK MARILYN MAKES POWERFUL
CASE THAT TO THE GREATEST
EXTENT POSSIBLE YOU WANT THEIR
TO BE FULL ACCESS TO THE
INFORMATION.
BUT I THINK RESPONSIBLE
LEGISLATION HAS TO REALIZE
THAT THERE WILL BE
CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE IN
GOOD FAITH GIVEN WHAT THEY
UNDERSTOOD TO BE THE RULES AND
THE CONVENTIONS OF THE TIME,
MADE YOU KNOW AN HONOURABLE
FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW AN
HONOURABLE ARRANGEMENT THAT MAY
IN FACT NOW BE CHANGED YEARS
LATER AND I THINK THAT IS AN
IMBALANCE THAT MAY LEAD TO
PRACTICES THAT NONE OF US
WOULD LIKE.

Marilyn says WE HAVE DONE IT IN ENGLAND...
AND SINCE 70S.
I AM TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS
IS NOT NEW WE ARE WAY BEHIND
AND WE SHOULD LEARN FROM
THOSE.
AND IT IS ABOUT THE RIGHT TO
THE ADULT ADOPTEE AND I WOULD
SAY IN PARTICULAR, TO HAVE THE
INFORMATION AND IF YOU DO THAT,
YOU ARE STILL DISCRIMINATING
YOU ARE SAYING, FOR INSTANCE
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RAPE AND
INCEST YOU ARE SAYING BECAUSE
OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR
BIRTH, WE ARE GOING TO
DISCRIMINATE AGAINST YOU AND
NOT ALLOW YOU TO GET
INFORMATION THAT EVERYBODY
ELSE HAS RIGHT TO.
IT IS ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL
RIGHTS.

Steve says DOES THAT CREATE TWO CLASSES
OF ADOPTEES IN THAT I VINCE IN
THAT CASE?

Lorrie says YOU KNOW AND IF WE ARE
GOING -- THERE IS TWO
ARGUMENTS THAT I FIND
INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK
ARE SORT OF STRONG AND FIRST
ONE IT IS HAPPENING ANYWAY
THERE FOR THE GOVERNMENT -- WE
ARE GOING STEP IN AND WE ARE
HERE TO HELP YOU THAT'S HOW WE
GOT YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT.
THE SECOND ARGUMENT THAT...
THERE ARE TWO CLASSES OF
PEOPLE.
OKAY THEN.
WELL, YES.
THERE ARE TWO CLASSES OF
PEOPLE HERE.
THERE ARE ALSO TWO CLASSES OF
VICTIMS OF CRIME.
ONE ARE THOSE WHO ARE VICTIMS
OF SECTION ALL ASSAULT ASK ONE
THEM ARE ALL OTHER VICTIMS.
VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND I
AM SURE MARILYN WOULD AGREE
WITH THOSE REASONS ARE NOT
REQUIRED WE BREAK THE IDEA
THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT TO FACE
YOUR ACCUSER PUBLICLY.
FOR THEM.
IF WE DO IN THAT CASE AND IT’S
ON THESE VERY ISSUES: INCEST
ABUSE.

Steve says THAT'S INTERESTING.
MAYBE YOU SHOULD RESPOND.

Marilyn says I THINK THAT'S UNFORTUNATE
ARGUMENT TO BRING THAT INTO TO
THIS CASE.

Lorrie says TELL ME WHY IT IS WRONG.

Marilyn says THE CHILD THAT WAS BORN
UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, IS ESTIMATE
THE CHILD THAT WAS BORN AND
STILL LIKE ANYBODY ELSE
SITTING AROUND THIS TABLE,
WANT TO KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES
OF THEIR BIRTH AND WHO THEY
ARE.
AND TO SAY THEY CAN'T BECAUSE
OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT
IS TELLING THEM, THAT THEY ARE
DIFFERENT AND THAT DOE
HAVEN'T -- THEY DON'T HAVE THE
SAME RIGHTS AS --.

Lorrie says IT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
I HAD FAMILY COURT JUDGE RE
WELL-KNOWN FOLLOW ME AFTER I
WROTE THE ARTICLE AND HE SAID
MR. GOLDSTEIN I ISSUED CHILD
CUSTODY ORDERS ALL OF THE
TIME.
AND WHERE IN INCOMPETENT
PARENTS LOSS THEIR CHILDREN
FOR REASONS OF ABUSE.
AND PLAN TO ASK THE MINISTER,
HE SAID I WILL BET YOU HAVE
NOT EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT.

Marilyn says YES THIS HAVE.
IT IS PART OF BILL.

Lorrie says WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

Marilyn says AND IN FACT THE MINISTER IS
GOING TO BE BRINGING IN
ANOTHER AMENDMENT.

Lorrie says ANOTHER ONE.
THERE IS ANOTHER ONE COMING SO
YOU KNOW ABOUT ANOTHER
AMENDMENT.

Marilyn says MINISTER ANNOUNCED IN HOUSE
TODAY.
AND IT IS CHARGED WITH THE
LEADER OF YOUR PARTY.

Lorrie says I INTRODUCED IT IS NOT MY
PARTY.

Marilyn says SORRY WE MADE MISTAKE
THERE.

Sean says IT IS AN ENDORSEMENT, BE
CAREFUL.

Marilyn says AND THE BUT YES THERE IS A
CAUSE IN THE BILL TO DEAL WITH
THOSE PARTICULAR CASES.

Lorrie says NOW.

Marilyn says THERE WAS BEFORE.
BUT THERE SOME TALK ABOUT
TRYING TO STRENGTHEN THAT.

Lorrie says AND THAT'S ODD BECAUSE I
TALKED TO PARENT WHO WENT
BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, WHO
ADOPTED CHILDREN AND HOW SAID
LOOK FROM YOU GOING TO DO
ANYTHING, AT LEAST MAKE IT
IS THOSE PARENTS WHO
VOLUNTARILY GAVE UP THEIR
CHILDREN.
AND IN OTHER WORDS, DON'T MAKE
IT IN THESE CASES OF -- I MEAN
I TALKED TO FATHER HE HAS GOT
THREE YOUNG KIDS THEY ARE ALL
ADOPTED AND I GOT TO BE
CAREFUL.
ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP.
AND HE GOT THEM.
AND HE JUST LIKE BESIDE -- HE
JUST LIKE WHAT WHEN THEY ARE
18 OR 19 THEY HAVE TO GO
BEFORE GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS
TO SAY WHAT IF KIDS -- WHAT IF
TWO YEAR OLD KID DOES NOT THEY
WERE ABUSED?

Janet says WELL I THINK ONE OF THE
OTHER THINGS THAT CONCERNS ME
ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION AND
AGAIN GETTING BACK TO MAKE
GOOD POLICY, FOR SOME THING
THIS SENSITIVE AND THIS
COMPLEX AND WE ARE WATCHING
THE GOVERNMENT SORT OF -- WE
WILL HE AMENDMENT HERE AND WE
HAVE ONE THERE LET'S MAKE THIS
LITTLE CHANGE.
THAT CLEARLY IS INDICATING AND
I PREMIER SAYING ONE THEN AND
CHANGING THEIR MESSAGING ON
THE THING.
THAT WAS -- THIS IS NOT BEEN
WELL THOUGHT OUT AND OR WALKED
THROUGH AND CONSIDERED AND
THAT CAUSES ME CONCERN AS
WELL.
AND AGAIN, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE
WE HEARD MEMBERS OF THE
OPPOSITION STAND UP AND SAY TO
THE GOVERNMENT, THAT YOU KNOW
WHEN A PROGRAM CREATES PROBLEM
FOR ONE PARTICULAR PERSON, THE
VALUE OF THE BAD THING THAT
HAPPENED TO THAT ONE
PARTICULAR PERSON IS
CONSIDERED IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO
CHANGE THINGS TO STOP THINGS.
WE ARE RUNNING A RISK HERE.
THAT PEOPLE MAY WELL GET
HARMED BY RETROACTIVE
LEGISLATION.

Steve says YOU ARE FORMER MINISTER AND
YOU WELL KNOW THEN AT THE END
DAY OF THE GOVERNMENTS HAVE TO
DECIDE.
AND SO PEOPLE WILL WIN AND
SOME PEOPLE WILL LOSE.
AND THIS SHOW BUSINESS, RIGHT?
ISN'T THAT WHAT GOING TO
HAPPEN HERE.

Janet says BUT THE PRINCIPAL HERE -- THE
PRINCIPAL THAT YOU DECIDE ON,
THOUGH I THINK ARE IMPORTANT.
AND BALANCE OF RIGHTS YOU
CAN'T SAY ONE PERSON IS RIGHTS
TRUMP OTHERS THAT'S ONE
IMPORTANT PRINCIPAL.
I FIRMLY BELIEVE.
AND THE SECOND THING IS THAT
YOU DON'T CHANGE THE RULES
RETROACTIVELY ESPECIALLY IN
CASES WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL OUT
THERE MAY NOT BE ANY POSITION
TO VOICE THEIR VIEW OR DEFEND
THEIR INTERESTS.
THAT'S AN ABUSE OF GOVERNMENT
POWER.

Steve says WHAT'S WRONG WITH OLD
SYSTEM WHERE BY BOTH SIDES PUT
THEIR NAMES IN AND IF THERE
WAS A MATCH THEN THEY COULD GO
FIND EACH OTHER?

Dave says WELL FIRST OF ALL THE WHOLE
PROCESS WAS QUITE UNDERFUNDED.
AND UNDERSTAFFED AND WAIT WAS.

Steve says SO GIVE THEM MORE
RESOURCES.

Janet says SO FIX IT.

Dave says AND SECONDLY, I MEAN IS
THERE WAS PROVISION FOR ACTIVE
SEARCHING AS UNDERSTAND
BECAUSE THAT'S CERTAINLY HOW
MY MOM MET HER SISTER.
BUST I THINK IT -- I THINK
THAT THE PROBLEM WITH IT IS
THAT IT JUST -- IT DOES NOT
BASICALLY RECOGNIZE THE RIGHT.
AND THAT IT IS STILL IS EACH
PERSON HAS TO GET THEIR NAME
ON LISTED OR ANOTHER CHILD IS
I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENT
PHILOSOPHY THERE IS A
DIFFERENT RECOGNITION OF
RIGHTS AND I THINK THAT'S WHY
SANDRA IS MOVING THE NEXT
STEP.

Marilyn says WHICH IS -- WANT TO COMMEND
SANDRA AND I DON'T DO THAT
LOT.
THIS IS SANDRA PUPATELLO AND
THE PREMIER AND LIBERALS FOR
GOING FORWARD WITH THIS.
IT IS LONG TIME COMING.
AND THE MAJORITY OF THE ADOPT
ADOPTION COMMUNITY SUPPORTS IT
FROM ALL THREE SIDES.

Janet says AND -- BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT
MARILYN.
THERE ARE PEOPLE -- THERE ARE
PEOPLE -- I HEAR FROM THERE
TOO.

Lorrie says SINCE MARILYN KNOWS BILL
BETTER.
MAYBE YOU CAN HELP ME.
HOW ARE THEY GOING TO DO THIS?
OF.

Janet says WOULDN'T BE FIRST TIME SHE
KNEW IT BETTER.

Lorrie says FRANKLY WOULD FEEL
BEFORE HE WITH THEY SOME DATE
GOING OPEN THESE THINGS.

Marilyn says NO.
NO.

Lorrie says IF WOULD YOU WANT TO TAKEN
NEGATIVE OPTION BILLING YOU
HAVE TO TELL THEM YOU DON'T
WANT TO BE ON IT.

Dave says I REMEMBER DEBATE ON THIS
BACK AGAIN IN THE LATE 70S.
I REMEMBER THERE WERE COUPLE
CABINET MINISTERS IN DAVIS
GOVERNMENT THAT SAID IF YOU
MOVE FORWARD ON THIS, WE ARE
QUITTING CABINET.
AND -- THE TYPES OF -- ALL I
AM SAYING THIS PROGRESSIVE
THING.
THIS SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENS
OVER PERIOD OF TIME THE
REFORM.

Marilyn says BUT LORRIE WHAT HE IS
SAYING QUITE CORRECT AND READ
ANSWER BACK THEY WERE SAYING
THE SAME THING.
THEY WERE DOING SAYING THEM.

Lorrie says HOW ARE THEY GOING TO DO
IT?

Marilyn says THIS BY THE WAY IS NOT PUBLIC
INFORMATION.
AND IT IS ONLY -- IT IS STILL
PRIVATE IN THAT YOU CAN -- YOU
WILL BE ABLE TO YOU APPLY AND
GET YOUR ORIGINAL BIRTH
CERTIFICATE AND BIRTH
REGISTRATION.
THAT'S HOW THEY DO IT.

Lorrie says ARE THEY GOING TO SAY AWAY WE
GO?
THEY WILL -- THEY WILL PHASE
IT IN.

Steve says FOLKS FOR GIVE I AM GOING
TO JUMP IN BECAUSE WE ARE DOWN
TO OUR LAST MINUTE AND I WANT
TO GET COUPLE MORE THINGS ON
THE RECORD.
TWO LAST THINGS CLAYTON RUBY THE
WELL-KNOWN LAWYER IN TOWN SAYS
HE WILL CHALLENGE THE CONSTITUTIONALITY
OF THIS LAW BECAUSE OF THE PRIVACY
PROVISIONS IN IT ARE YOU
CONCERNED THIS WILL NEVER SEE
THE LIGHT OF DAY BECAUSE OF
THAT?

Marilyn says NO I THINK THE GOVERNMENT
IS GOING TO MOVE FORWARD.
WITH IT.
AND I GUESS HE IS GOING TO
JOIN THE LIEN.
BUT, I -- I THINK THAT'S A
RISK THAT YOU TAKE WHEN YOU
CARRY FORWARD THIS
LEGISLATION.
I THINK IT WAS TENNESSEE I AM
NOT SURE WHICH STATE, HAD A
CHALLENGE ON THIS VERY THING.
AND IN FACT, THE DECISION WAS
UPHELD.
THAT THERE COULD BE AND SHOULD
NOT BE A VETO ON THIS
DISCLOSURE.

Steve says SPERM DONORS.
SAME STORY?

Marilyn says WELL YOU KNOW THEY ARE LEFT
OUT OF THIS WHOLE EQUATION.
AND THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER ISSUE
THAT IS GOING TO BE BECOME
MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AND
RELEVANT.
THAT'S NOT PART OF THIS BILL.
BUT THEY ARE LOBBYING AS WE
SPEAK.

Steve says WOULD YOU FAVOUR THAT?

Marilyn says ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
I BELIEVE EVERY HUMAN BEING
AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL NOT
TALKING ABOUT LITTLE CHILDREN
HERE.
ADULTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW
WHO THEY ARE AND THEIR HEALTH
ESPECIALLY IN THESE DAYS OF
THE GENETIC REVOLUTION WHERE
WE KNOW THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF
DISEASES PASSED ON.

Steve says WE GOT TO JUMP OUT HERE:
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR A VERY
TOUGH BUT VERY CIVILIZED
DISCUSSION ON THIS AND I AM
REALLY GRATEFUL.
AND TO YOU THREE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
AND THAT'S "FOURTH READING."
FOR THIS WEEK.
I AM STEVE PAIKIN UNTIL NEXT
SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Editors, Empyreal Palmer.

Director, Sidney M. Cohen.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2005, The Ontario Educational.

Watch: Adoption