Transcript: Confidence Game & Ipperwash | May 22, 2005

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON "FOURTH
READING":
POLITICAL SQUEAKER.
THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT
SURVIVES, AFTER BELINDA STRONACH
CROSSES THE FLOOR.

Steve Paikin sit sin the studio with 2 guests.

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short curly brown hair. He wears a brown suit and a striped gray shirt.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY I AM
STEVE PAIKIN GLAD TO HAVE YOU
ABOARD FOR THIS WEEK'S EDITION
OF "FOURTH READING."
THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHAT
POLITICAL REPORTERS COVER IS
PREDICTABLE.
WE CONSIDER OURSELVES
FORTUNATE IF WE GET ONE TRULY
GREAT STORY A YEAR WHICH IS
WHY THIS PAST WEEK WAS
UNPRECEDENTED IN CANADIAN
HISTORY.
TWO ASTONISHING DEVELOPMENTS IN
JUST THREE DAYS. FIRST, WHAT
HEADLINE WRITERS WERE CALLING
BELINDA'S BETRAYAL WHICH LED
SECOND TO THE LIBERAL
GOVERNMENTS
AGAINST ALL ODDS SURVIVAL ON
THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE OF
COMMONS ON THURSDAY.
IT WAS A HELL OF A WEEK.

A slate reads "Tuesday, May 17th. Belinda Stronach crosses the floor."

Belinda Stronach sits next to a Paul Martin at a press conference.

Belinda is in her late thirties, with mid-length straight blond hair. She wears a gray blazer, a floral scarf and a pearl necklace.

Paul is in his mid-sixties, clean-shaven and with short straight white hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt and gray tie.

Paul says I AM VERY PLEASED TO
ANNOUNCE, THAT MS.
STRONACH WILL CROSS THE FLOOR
AND HAS AGREED TO JOIN THE
CABINET AS MINISTER OF HUMAN
RESOURCES AND SKILLS
DEVELOPMENT.

A caption reads "Belinda Stronach. Human Resources Minister."

Belinda says I CANNOT EXAGGERATE HOW
HARD THIS WAS FOR ME.
THE POLITICAL CRISIS AFFECTING
CANADA IS TOO RISKY AND
DANGEROUS FOR BLIND
PARTISANSHIP.
I WATCH AND LISTEN AND FEEL
THAT THE INTERESTS OF
INDIVIDUALS OR PARTIES ROCK
REPLACED -- BEING IS PLAYED
ABOVE NATIONAL INTERESTS.

The caption changes to "Stephen Harper. Conservative Leader."

Stephen is in his forties, with short wavy gray hair. He wears a blue suit, blue Shirt and striped blue tie.

He says A NUMBER OF OUR HEMS ARE
FEELING QUITE DID VERY STATED.
AND QUITE BETRAYED BY THIS.
BUT I WILL BE FRANK WITH YOU
AND SAYING THAT I TOLD MY WIFE
ONLY A FEW DAYS AGO, THAT I
THOUGHT IT HAD BECOME
OBVIOUS TO BELINDA THAT HER
LEADERSHIP AMBITIONS
WOULD NOT BE REACHED IN THIS
PARTY.
REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT
WE WON THE NEXT ELECTION.

A slate reads "Thursday, May 19th. The vote."

A caption reads "Peter Milliken. Speaker of The House of Commons."

Peter is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight white hair. He wears glasses and a court robe.

He says THE CLERK HAS ANNOUNCE
THERE IS AN EQUALITY OF VOTES
FOR AND AGAINST THE MOTION.
AND UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES
IT IS THE DUTY OF THE SPEAKER
TO BREAK THE TIE.
AT THIS STAGE IN THE DEBATE
ON THE BILL SINCE THE HOUSE
CANNOT MAKE A DECISION I CAST
MY VOTE FOR SECOND READING OF
BILL C-48 AND ITS REFERENCE
TO THE FINANCE COMMITTEE ALLOW
THE
HOUSE TIME FOR FURTHER DEBATE
SO IT CAN MAKE ITS OWN
DECISION AT SOME FUTURE TIME.

Paul Martin says WE ASKED THE OPPOSITION TO
JOIN WITH US IN A RENEWED
EFFORT TO MAKE THIS PARLIAMENT
WORK FOR THE PEOPLE OF CANADA.

The caption changes to "Honourable Stephen Harper. Leader of the Opposition."

He says AND GREAT DEAL OF THE EFFORT
HAS GONE INTO CREATING AN
OPPOSITION HERE THAT IS
UNITED THAT IS VIGOROUS AND
DETERMINED AT ALL TIMES TO
PROVIDE HER MAJESTY WITH A LOYAL
OPPOSITION AND A POTENTIAL
REPLACEMENT TO THE GOVERNMENT
AND WE
CONTINUE AND WILL CONTINUE TO
DO THAT WORK.

Back in the studio, Steve says AN AMAZING WEEK IN
THE POLITICAL HISTORY COUNTRY.
LOTS TO DISCUSS.
HERE AT OUR TVO STUDIOS TONY
CLEMENT, ONTARIO'S FORMER
MINISTER OF HEALTH, NOW THE
FEDERAL CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE
IN PARRY SOUND, MUSKOKA
WHO CHALLENGED BELINDA STRONACH
FOR THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
LEADERSHIP LAST YEAR.

Tony is in his late thirties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, white shirt and patterned orange tie.

Steve says AND DAVE COOK THE
FORMER NDP CABINET MINISTER.

Dave is in his early late forties, clean-shaven and with short receding brown hair. He wears a gray suit and a gray shirt.

Steve says AND ON THE LINE IN KINGSTON
THE FORMER LIBERAL CABINET
MINISTER SEAN CONWAY, AND THE
FORMER PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
MINISTER JANET ECKER WHO WORKED
AS AN ADVISOR ON BELINDA
STRONACH'S CONSERVATIVE
LEADERSHIP BID.

Sean is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight light brown hair. He wears glasses, gray trousers, a black blazer, white shirt and burgundy tie.

Janet is in her late forties, with short wavy light brown hair. She wears glasses, gray trousers, a hot pink turtleneck and a chocolate brown blazer.

Steve says THE HOUSE DID
NOT FALL YESTERDAY.
SO YOU ARE NOT OUT CAMPAIGNING
TODAY.
YOU ARE HERE WITH US.
SO THANK YOU FOR THAT.
WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN
CHUCK CADMAN DID WHAT HE DID?

The caption changes to "Tony Clement. Conservative Party Candidate."

Tony says I WASN'T SURPRISED WHEN I HEARD
THE POLLING RESULTS IN HIS OWN
RIDING THAT INDICATED A GRAND
MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN HIS RIDE
DOING NOT WANT AN ELECTION I
THOUGHT HE WOULD FOLLOW
THROUGH ON WISHES OF HIS
CONSTITUENTS WHEN IT WAS SO
OBVIOUS WHAT THIS WERE SO,
THAT WAS NOT AS BIG AFTER
SURPRISE.
I BASICALLY YOU ASSESSED THAT
BELINDA STRONACH MOVED TO THE
LIBERAL SIDE THAT PROBABLY
CHANCES OF US WINNING THAT
VOTE WAS FAIRLY SLIDE.

Steve says DID -- WHO DID YOU
GET NEWS THAT STRONACH HAD CROSSED
THE FLOOR.

Tony says MY EX PRESS SECRETARY GAVE
ME A SHARP E-MAIL JAB TO THE
SOLAR PLEXUS BY SAYING YOU WILL
NOT BELIEVE WHAT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN.
IN ABOUT FIVE MINUTES TIME
BELINDA STRONACH GOING TO BE
ON THE AIR AND THEN PUT AT THE
END OF THE E-MAIL THIS IS NOT
A JOKE BECAUSE SOME TIMES HE
DOES JOKE AROUND A LITTLE BIT.
BUT HE WANTED ME TO BE AWARE
THIS WAS SERIOUS.

Steve says WHEN YOU SAW HER ON
TELEVISION WHAT WAS YOUR
REACTION?

Tony says I WELL I WENT THROUGH STORIES
REEF ACTION THAT DAY SHOCK AND
DISBELIEF FOLLOWED PRETTY
QUICKLY BY ANGER AND THEN,
ULTIMATELY BY RELIEF.

Steve says BY RELIEF?

Tony says I THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS
SOMETHING THAT WAS GOING TO BE
HURTFUL TOWELS WHILE I WAS
GLAD IT WAS HAPPENING BEFORE
THE ACTUAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN
WAS OCCURRING.
AND MY VIEW HAS BEEN THAT
BELINDA HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT
DIVISIVE INFLUENCE IN THE
PARTY SINCE LAST LEADERSHIP
CONTEST BECAUSE OF HER
LEADERSHIP AMBITIONS.
SO IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A
SHOW DOWN AT THE OK CORRAL IT
WAS
BETTER TO GET IT DONE AND OVER
WITH.

Steve says JANET ECKHART YOU WORKED
WITH HER HOW DID YOU GET NEWS?

The caption changes to "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister."

On the upper left corner of the screen a caption reads "Kingston."

Janet says WELL I GOT A BLACKBERRY AND A
PHONE CALL.
FROM ONE FROM A FRIEND AND ONE
FROM A FORMER STAFFER.
AND MY REACTION WAS SIMILAR TO
TONY'S.
THE QUOTE THE ONE QUOTE I GAVE
ONE OF THE MEDIA WAS SORT OF
SPEECHLESS DUMBFOUNDED.
FOLLOWED BY LONG SILENCE.
IT WAS QUITE A A SHOCKER.

Steve says DID NOTION OF IN EVER CROSS
YOUR MIND AT ANY TIME?

Steve says NO.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
ABSOLUTELY NOT AND AS SOMEONE
WHO FOUGHT VERY HARD FOR THE
FEDERAL CONSERVATIVE PARTY,
PROVINCIAL CONSERVATIVE PARTY
AS SOMEONE WHO -- WE HAVE ALL
HAD DAYS WHEN WE MAY AGREE OR
DISAGREE WITH OUR LEADER OR
PARTY ON DIFFERENT ISSUE AND
WHATEVER.
MEAN, I WAS DISAPPOINTED.
I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THE
DECISION SHE MADE.

Steve says WHO DO YOU NOW FEEL ABOUT
THE FACT THAT YOU WORK FOR
HER?

Janet says WELL, IT IS NOT LEAVE
YOU WARM IF YOU CITY FEELING.
I THINK THAT I KNOW BOTH TONY
AND I HAVE HAD EXPERIENCES
WITH PAST LEADERS PAST PARTIES,
PAST POLICIES WHERE YOU
DISAGREE.
I HAVE ALWAYS FOUND THAT YOU
FIND AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE
YOUR CASE.
THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS TO
HANDLE THE ISSUE AND I WAS
VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT THIS
WAS ROUTE THESE SHOWS BUT IT
IS HER DECISION AND AT THE END
OF THE DAY WHETHER I OR TONY
AGREE OR DISAGREE BE THERE
VOTERS IN VAUGHN THAT MAKE
DECISIONS.

Steve says HE IS NEW MARKET AURORA.

Janet says SORRY ABOUT THAT.
SORRY ABOUT THAT.

Steve says THAT'S GOOD.
I WANT TO BRING YOU IN.
YOU HAVE BOTH SEEN IT
FIRSTHAND.
DAVE TO YOU FIRST I THINK WAS
ABOUT 20 YEARS THAT DAVID
RAMSEY SAY WAS COLLEAGUE OF
YOURS AND HE MOVED OVER TO
LIBERALS WHAT DOES THAT DO TO
A CAUCUS WHEN SOMEONE FLIPS?

The caption changes to "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Dave says IT DOES BRING ANGER RIGHT
AWAY.
AND NOT MUCH IN THE WAY OF
DIVISIONS IF ANYTHING, MY
RECOLLECTION BACK THEN WAS
THAT SORT OF BROUGHT US CLOSER
TOGETHER.
AND IT WAS A LONG TIME BEFORE
OF ANY US WERE EVEN GET IN
SAME ELEVATOR AS DAVID RAMSEY.
I MEAN, SO WE -- IT IS
CERTAINLY HAS THAT KIND OF A
IMPACT AND OF COURSE
DEPRESSIONS YOU.
I MEAN YOU ARE ALL WORKING
HARD TO TRY TO MOVE YOUR PARTY
FORWARD.
PUT POLICY -- AND YOU KNOW
HOPE WILL YOU DO BETTER IN
NEXT ELECTION AND SOMETHING
LIKE THIS HAPPENS OF COURSE IT
IS A DOWNER.
THERE IS NO WAY OF SPINNING
THAT IT IS POSITIVE.

Steve says HAVE YOU FOR GIVEN HIM YET?

Dave says WELL I MEAN THERE'S NO REASON
WHY HE NEEDS MY FORGIVENESS.
BUT I AM NOT ONE OF THAT
BELIEVES THAT THIS IS GOOD FOR
THE PROCESS.
AND I THINK IF THERE ANYTHING
THAT'S COME OUT OF THE LAST
SEVERAL WEEKS IS WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC
DEFICIT.
WHAT'S HAPPENED IN LAST
SEVERAL WEEK IN PARLIAMENT I
DON'T THINK FOR THE ORDINARY
JOE, HAS DONE ANYTHING TO GIVE
THEM CONFIDENCE EITHER IN
PARLIAMENT OR IN GOVERNMENT.
I THINK IT IS REALLY -- IT IS
NOT BEEN POSITIVE ANY WAY
SHAPE OR FORM.
WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF
JACK LAYTON.
WHO IS PROBABLY LOOKS MORE
POSITIVE THAN REST ON ALL OF
THIS.

Steve says SEAN LET ME GO TO YOU ON
WELCOMING FROM ANOTHER PARTY
INTO YOUR CAUCUS.
HOW -- WE SAW PICTURES ON TV
THIS PAST WEEK OF BELINDA
BEING WELCOMED BY THE DEPUTY
PRIME MINISTER AS A SORT OF
CONQUERING HERO.
HOW DO PEOPLE REALLY FEEL
PRIVATELY ABOUT SOMEBODY LIKE
THAT COMING OVER FROM ANOTHER
PARTY?

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister."

He says WELL, GENERALLY SPEAKING,
THERE IS SUSPICION.
IN THE CASE OF BELINDA
STRONACH SHE WAS NOT JUST
RECEIVED INTO THE GOVERNMENT
CAUCUS BUT SHE WENT TO FRONT
OF THE LINE RATHER QUICKLY AND
THEN BE A LOT OF MEMBERS IN
MISTER MARTIN'S CAUCUS I SUSPECT
WHO LOOK TO THAT RATHER SPEED
DEEM PROMOTION AND WONDERED
THAT WOULD HAVE AN AFFECT ON
THEIR FUTURE FOR CABINET
PREFERMENT.
IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT THING
TO DO.
I THINK IT IS MADE EASIER IF
IT APPEARS TO BE RELATED IN
SOME WAY TO SOME KIND OF A
PRINCIPAL.
OR SOME KIND OF AN ISSUE THAT
WOULD EXPLAIN IT.
WHEN IT APPEARS TO BE VERY
SUDDEN AND RATHER
OPPORTUNISTIC THAT MAKES BOTH
THE BELIEVING AND THE RECEIVING
AND I THINK QUITE
DISTRUSTFUL AND VERY TENTATIVE.

Steve says WELL IN YOUR OWN SITUATION CAN
YOU RECALL AT THE TIME WHETHER
LIBERALS REALLY TRUSTED I
THINK DAVID RAMSEY WAS ONE.
AND I THINK MAYBE TONY WAS
ANOTHER WHO WENT FROM ONE
PARTY -- FROM THE NDP --.

Dave says THAT WAS UNIQUE
CIRCUMSTANCES.

Steve says DO YOU REALLY EVER TRUST
THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CROSSED AS
FELLOW LIBERALS?

Sean says WELL IN THE CASE OF DAVID
RAMSEY, IT WAS RATHER EARLY IN
OUR MANDATE IN GOVERNMENT.
I THINK IT CAME EIGHT OR NINE
MONTHS INTO THAT FIRST TERM.
AND I WAS -- I MIGHT AS WELL
BE HONEST I WAS INVOLVED IN
THAT.
I DID SPEAK TO MISTER RAMSEY AS
HE THOUGHT ABOUT HIS DECISION.
I STRONGLY COUNSELLED HIM NOT
TO DO WHAT HE EVENTUALLY DID.
AND MY ADVICE OBVIOUSLY WAS
NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO CHANGE
HIS MIND.
BUT I THINK AFTER A WHILE, YOU
KNOW AS HE WON RE-NOMINATION AS
LIBERAL IN '87 AND THEN
RE-ELECTION IN 87 AND 90, TIME
CERTAINLY HEALS A LOT OF
THINGS AND I THINK THERE IS NO
ONE IN THE LIBERAL CAUCUS NOW
AT QUEEN'S PARK WHO WOULD NOT
ACCEPT DAVID RAMSEY AS A FULLY
FLEDGED MEMBER OF THE TEAM.
BUT IN THOSE EARLY DAYS, IT
IS -- IT IS TOUGH FOR SOME AND
THERE ARE QUESTIONS AND THERE
ARE SUSPICIONS THAT DAVE COOK
RIGHTLY TALKED ABOUT.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS BELINDA
SAID, TONY, WAS THAT SHE FELT
THAT YOUR LEADER STEVEN HARPER
AND YOUR PARTY THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY, DIDN'T
REALLY UNDERSTAND ONTARIO WELL
ENOUGH.
AND THAT WELL IN FACT I THINK
PROBABLY EVERY PUBLIC OPINION
POLL IN ONTARIO EXCEPT FOR ONE
IN PAST 12 YEARS HAS PUT THE
CONSERVATIVES IN A EITHER CLOSE
OR BAD SECOND PLACE IN THE
PROVINCE. DOES SHE HAVE A POINT?

Tony says WELL, I THINK SHE IS
FINDING SOME JUSTIFICATIONS
FOR HER ACTIONS.
IT TERMS OF HER MAKE THE POINT,
I WOULD SAY NO SHE DOES NOT
HAVE A POINT.
IN TERMS OF THE GENERAL
CHALLENGE FOR THE PARTY, I
THINK HARPER IS FIRST TOOK
KNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE GOT TO
MAKE UP SOME GROUND IF WE ARE
GOING TO FORM A NATIONAL
GOVERNMENT IN BOTH ONTARIO AND
QUEBEC.
THAT'S STATISTICALLY THAT'S TRUE
AND IT IS -- IT IS OBVIOUS.
SO, I THINK WE ARE AWARE OF
THAT AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS
THAT WE HAD WITH BELINDA
STRONACH BEING PART OF CAUCUS
BECAUSE OF HER SUPER NOVA
ABILITY TO COMMAND ATTENTION,
AND IT WAS NOT CLEAR TO
ONTARIO THAT THERE WERE OTHERS
WHO HAVE MODERN MODERATE
POLICIES IN THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY OF CANADA THAT ARE ALSO
PART OF TEAM NOW WITH HER MAKE
CHOICE THAT SHE MADE, IT WILL
BE VERY EVIDENT NEXT FEDERAL
ELECTION WHENEVER THAT IS THAT
ARE OTHER MODERATE
CONSERVATIVE WHO ARE PART OF
OUR TEAM IN ONTARIO WHO CAN I
THINK ALLAY SOME OF THE
CONCERNS THAT HAVE BEEN
EXPRESSED.

Steve says ARE YOU SECRETLY, PLEASED
THE ELECTION WAS NOT CALLED
YESTERDAY?

Tony says WELL, I COULD HAVE LIVED
WITH EITHER WAY.
CERTAINLY, WE WERE ALL GEARED
UP AND PARRY SOUND TO FIND AN
ELECTION TODAY.
TO MAKE THE BEST CASE OF NOT
ANN HAVING AN ELECTION SOME
ADDITIONAL TIMER TO SOME
CANDIDATES SUCH AS MYSELF TO
BE KNOWN BETTER IN THE
CONSTITUENCY AND TO
ORGANIZATION THAT WILL BE
USEFUL AS WELL.
SO I REALLY WAS -- EITHER WAY
I WAS CONTENT WITH FATE.
HANDING ME WHATEVER THE
PARLIAMENT DECIDE REALLY.

Steve says HOW ABOUT THE NOTION OF
THAT BELINDA PUT FORWARD
SUGGESTING
THAT SHE FELT VERY
UNCOMFORTABLE ALIGNING HERSELF
WITH THE BLOC TO PULL DOWN THE
GOVERNMENT.
IS THAT A LEGITIMATE CONCERN?

Janet says WELL I THINK PEOPLE ARE
QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE IN A WHOLE
RANGE OF AREAS ABOUT THE
STRENGTH OF A PARTY THAT IS
DEDICATED TO TEARING APART THE
COUNTRY.
PUT, AS I SAID, I -- THAT
WAS -- THAT WAS NOT MY CHOICE
TO PROCEED THE WAY SHE
PROCEEDED I THINK THERE A LOT
OF VENUES FOR HOW YOU CAN
DEAL WITH THOSE CONCERNS IF
YOU HAVE CONCERNS WITH YOUR
LEADER OR YOUR PARTY.
I MEAN POLITICS IS VERY MUCH A
TEAM SPORT.
AND PEOPLE -- YOU TRUST YOUR
COLLEAGUES YOU WORK HARD WITH
YOUR COLLEAGUES.
AND SO, IT MAKES IT VERY
DIFFICULT WHEN SOMEONE DOES
THIS.
BUT THAT BEING SAID, I THINK
ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS STEVE
THAT CERTAINLY BOTHERED A LOT OF
PEOPLE IN THIS DEBATE AND
CERTAINLY A LOT OF WOMEN WAS
THE OVER THE TOP RHETORIC THAT
STARTED TO BE USED VERY, VERY
QUICKLY.
TO CRITICIZE BELINDA STRONACH
FOR DECISIONS WHEN YOU MAKE
CONTROVERSIAL DECISION MALE OR
FEMALE WILL YOU GET CRITICIZED
FOR IT AND OUT HAVE TO TOUGH
SKIN IN THIS BUSINESS.
THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
BUT I THINK A LOT OF US WERE
QUITE APPALLED QUITE FRANKLY
AT SOME OF THE LANGUAGE THAT
WAS USED BY PEOPLE FROM NOT
JUST THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
FEDERALLY QUITE FRANKLY BUT
FROM OTHER CAUCUS AND IN THE
MEDIA AS WELL.
I DON'T THINK THAT HELPS THE
PROCESS.
AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT GOING
TO HELP ALL OF US ENCOURAGE
MORE PEOPLE MORE YOUNG PEOPLE
OF WHATEVER SEX TO GET INTO
POLITICS.
WHEN THEY SEE THAT KIND OF
THING.
IT WAS UNPRECEDENTED AND I THINK
FRANKLY, UNCALLED FOR.

Steve says I KNOW WE HAVE TALKED ON THIS
PROGRAM ABOUT SOME OF THE
THINGS THAT OTHER POLITICIANS
SAID.
BUT THERE WERE CARTOONS THAT
NEWSPAPERS PUBLISHED SUGGEST
THAT YOU KNOW PAUL MARTIN
DRIVING BY IN CAR AND BELINDA
WAS PROSTITUTE ON SIDE OF THE
CAR -- SIDE OF THE STREET
RATHER URGING HER TO GET IN.
PRESUMABLY AT LOVE PEOPLE
HAVE GOT RE-EVALUATE THE WAY THEY
LOOK AT THESE THINGS?

Sean says I THINK IT IS.
AND I AGREE WITH JANET AND
WHERE BELINDA STRONACH
CONCERNED REGARDLESS OF WHERE
YOU ARE ON HER DECISION TO
WEEK TO IN SUCH SURPRISING
CRITICAL JUNCTURE
CHANGE SIDES MY IMPRESSION FOR
LAST NUMBER OF MONTHS IS THAT
SHE PARTICULARLY IN THE YEAR
OF 2005, HAS BEEN SECONDED OUT
FOR SOME OF THE MOST
CONSISTENTLY SEXIST PRESS
COVER RAJ THAT I HAVE SEEN IN
A LONG, LONG TIME.
THERE ARE IS BEEN DAYS IN LAST
YEAR WHEN I THOUGHT WAYS BACK
IN THE MID 1970s.
AND I THINK JANET AND PEOPLE
LIKE JANET WHO ARE TRYING TO
DO MORE TO RAISE THE AWARENESS
OF POLITICAL LIFE FOR WOMEN,
HAVE A VERY VALID POINT.
I THINK SOME OF MY MALE
COLLEAGUES ON ALL SIDES OF THE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM WERE REALLY
OFF LINE THIS WEEK.
WITH SOME OF THE COMMENTS.

Steve says I WANT TO GO AROUND HORN ON
THIS ONE.
LAST ISSUE THE EVENTS OF PAST
FEW WEEKS AND LET'S TAKE A
LOOK AT THIS.
REVELATIONS OF THE GOMERY
INQUIRY.
BELINDA STRONACH'S CROSSING
THE FLOOR.
THE VIEW OF MANY OVER THE TOP
INTENSE ANGER DISPLAYED BY
STEVEN HARPER DURING THIS
TIME.
AND THE ATTEMPTS BY LIBERAL
PARTY BACK ROOM PEOPLE TO
PERHAPS BRIBE OR PURCHASE THE
VOTES OR THE DECLINING SHOW UP
FOR VOTING IN PARLIAMENT.
HAVE NO DOUBT LEFT MANY
CANADIANS COMPLETELY NAUSEATED
ABOUT THE STATE
OF POLITICS IN THE COUNTRY
TODAY.
AND I WANT DAVE STARTING WITH
YOU WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SAY TO
THOSE PEOPLE ARE TRYING FIND
SOME NOBILITY IN POLITICS BUT
FINDING PRETTY HARD TO DO NOW
A DAYS.

Dave says WELL I DON'T THINK IT
IS -- I DON'T THINK THERE IS
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW IT NORMALLY
OPERATES.
AND I THINK THE LEADERS OF THE
PARTIES HAVE TO RE-EXAMINE THE
ROLE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO
PLAY OVER.
WE WILL HAVE PARLIAMENT STAY
IN SESSION FOR A WHILE.
AND IT IS GOT TO START BEING
AN EXAMPLE OF HOW GOVERNMENT
CAN WORK AND HOW POLITICS AND
DEMOCRACY CAN WORK.
IT IS HAS BEEN -- TO ME
PERSONALLY IT HAS BEEN
DISGUSTING IN LAST FEW WEEKS.
I THINK THE PRIME MINISTER IN
PARTICULAR AND HIS OFFICE HAVE
GOT TO RE-EXAMINE HOW THEY
HAVE BEEN OPERATING, AND THEY
HAVE GOT START FRESH.

Janet says I AGREE WITH DAVE.
I MEAN I NEVER BEEN SO HAPPY
TO NOT BE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL
IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.
I THINK IT HAS BEEN HARD FOR
EVERYBODY TO KEEP TEMPERS AND
FEELING IN CHECK WHEN WE LOOK
WHAT THE GOMERY COMMISSION HAS
BEEN UNVEILING.
BUT I THINK ALL OF THEM NOW
HAVE TO STEP ASIDE, STEP
OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES AND ASK
SOME REALLY TOUGH QUESTIONS
ABOUT HOW DO WE GO FORWARD IN
A WAY THAT CAN REBUILD
CANADIAN TRUST IN THE PROCESS
AGAIN.
I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT
ALL OF THE PEOPLE FROM ALL
SIDES OF THE HOUSE HAVE TO
PLAY A ROLE IN IN DOING.

Sean says WELL, I WOULD MAKE IN
OBSERVATION, STEVE, THAT FOR
THOSE PEOPLE IN CANADA WHO
WANT MORE OF THE CONGRESSIONAL
STYLE POLITICS EVERY PERSON...
ONE PERSON ONE VOTE IN
PARLIAMENT, THIS CAN SOME TIMES
LEAD TO WHAT'S WE SAW THIS
WEEK WE HAVE GOT A VERY
FINALLY BALANCED SITUATION IN
PARLIAMENT POWER IS THE ISSUE.
I DON'T DISAGREE WITH DAVE AND
JANET IT CERTAINLY LOOKED VERY
UNSEEMLY.
I THINK PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO
DRAW BACK.
BUT, YOU KNOW DOES TAKE YOU
BACK TO THE IDEA THAT IN THE
OLD BRITISH SYSTEM WHERE YOU
HAVE GOT CLEAR MAJORITY
GOVERNMENT, IT IS NOT ALWAYS
ALL BAD.

Steve says LAST WORD TO TONY CLEMENT.

Tony says WE ARE SEEING SOME OF
IMPACTS OF THE INFOTAINMENT OF
CANADIAN POLITICS WHEN WE
CREATE STARS AND WE CREATE
THIS MEDIA GENERATED IMPACT WE
FORGET AND I WOULD SAY THAT TO
YOUR VIEWERS 90 PERCENT POLITICS JUST
HARD SLOGGING ON THE ISSUES YOU
CARE ABOUT YOUR CONSTITUENTS
CARE ABOUT IT IS NOT VERY
GLITZY BUT IT IS THE IMPORTANT
STUFF THAT HAS TO BE DONE AND
90 PERCENT OF POLITICIANS DO THAT FOR
THEIR CONSTITUENTS SO I WOULD
ASK YOUR VIEWERS TO REMEMBER
THAT.
AND ALSO TO CONSIDER THERE IS
GOING TO BE PARTISANSHIP IN
THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
IF YOU CAN'T HAVE A PART SAN
SHIP IN HOUSE OF COMMONS WHERE
IN GOD'S GREENHOUSE ARE YOU
GOING TO HAVE IT?
DON'T RECOIL FROM THAT.
IT DOES GO OVER THE TOP BUT
YOUR MEMBERS ARE ELECTED TO
DISPLAY THEIR PARTISANSHIP ON
THEIR SLEEVE THAT'S WHAT THEY
ARE THERE FOR.
SOME OF THE TIME.

Steve says THANK YOU FOR THIS
DISCUSSION.
WE HAVE ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT
STORY IN THE NEWS THIS PAST
WEEK WE WANT TO TELL YOU
ABOUT.
NEW EVIDENCE AT THE IPPERWASH
INQUIRY INTO THE SHOOTING OF
NATIVE PROTESTOR DUDLEY GEORGE.
GEORGE AND A GROUP OF NATIVES
OCCUPIED IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL
PARK SHORTLY AFTER THE MIKE
HARRIS GOVERNMENT CAME TO
POWER TEN YEARS AGO.
GEORGE WAS SHOT DURING
CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE
PROTESTORS AND ONTARIO
PROVINCIAL POLICE.
DALTON MCGUINTY GOVERNMENT
ESTABLISHED THE INQUIRY TO
DETERMINE WHETHER THERE WAS
ANY POLITICAL INTERFERENCE BY
THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT.
AND THIS WEEK THE INQUIRY
HEARD TAPED CONVERSATIONS
SUGGESTING THAT HARRIS
GOVERNMENT WAS ON A QUOTE TEST
REASON HIGH WHEN THE SHOOTING
OCCURRED.

A clip with protesters burning things rolls with the caption "September 1995. CTV News Report."

A reporter says SAYS THE ONLY THEY STAFF
PEACEFULLY IS IF ONTARIO
PREMIER MIKE HARRIS GETS
INVOLVED IN THE NEGOTIATIONS.

The caption changes to "Voice of Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

She says IRONICALLY, AT THE TIME,
STONEY POINT NATIVES OCCUPIED
IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK IN
THE 995, THEIR NATIONAL
SPOKESMAN WAS CALLING FOR
PREMIER MIKE MARIS TO GET
PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THE
SITUATION.
THIS WEEK, JUST THE IDEA THAT
HE MIGHT HAVE DONE SO, BY
DIRECTING THE OPP TO FORCE
NATIVES TO LEAVE THE OCCUPIED
PARK, PROMPTED OUTRAGE.

The caption hanges to "Sam George. Brother of Dudley George."

Sam is in his late fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight thinning brown hair. He wears glasses and a red polo T-shirt.

He says MISTER HARRIS HAS SAID FROM
TIME TO TIME THAT HE AND HIS
GOVERNMENT WERE NOT INVOLVED
BUT NOW WE NOTATED THAT HE WAS
NOT BEING TRUTHFUL TO US.

A picture of Dudley George appears on screen.

Susanna says SAM GEORGE'S BROTHER DUDLEY
WAS SHOT AND KILLED.
DURING A CONFRONTATION WITH
THE ONTARIO PROVINCIAL POLICE
ON SEPTEMBER 6TH, 1995.

Fast clips show images of a bus with bullet holes.

Susanna says AND NATIVES HAD EARLIER TAKEN
OVER A NEAR BY FEDERAL
MILITARY BASE SAYING IT HAD
BEEN TAKEN FROM THEM ILLEGALLY
DECADES BEFORE.
ON LABOUR DAY WEEKEND THEY
MOVED INTO THE PARK.
WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS
NATIVE BURIAL GROUND.
LOCAL RESIDENTS AND LOCAL
POLITICIANS, WERE UPSET.
WE ARE SCARED.
ALL RIGHT.

A man in his fifties says WE ARE SCARED OF OUR LIVES.
WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE
HERE.
ALL OF MY CLOTHES IS PACKED IN
THIS CAR.
RIGHT NOW.
BECAUSE I AM SCARED.

Another man in his fifties says THIS IS ME, IS A GROUP OF
TERRORISTS TERROR RICING OUR
COMMUNITY AND WE WANT IT TO
STOP.
BUT AFTER THE SHOOTING, NATIVE
SAID THEY HAD BEEN UNARMED.

A native man shouts at police officers COLD BLOODED MURDER.

The man says FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WE
TOLD EVERYBODY THAT THIS IS
PEACEFUL OCCUPATION.
WE TOLD THOSE COPS WHEN THEY
WERE HERE WE TOLD THEM.
WE WERE UNARMED.

Susanna says DESPITE THE FACT THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT HAD SAID IT WAS
POLICE MATTER, THERE WERE
REPEATED ACCUSATIONS HARRIS
HAD VIOLATED A CARDINAL
DEMOCRATIC RULE.
THE SEPARATION OF THE POLICE
AND POLITICAL POWERS.
WHEN THE LIBERALS FORMED A
GOVERNMENT, THEY CALLED A
PUBLIC INQUIRY.

The caption changes to "Michael Bryant. Ontario Attorney General."

Michael is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short straight brown hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and a polka dotted black tie.

He says TODAY I AM ANNOUNCING THAT A
FULL AND INDEPENDENT PUBLIC
INQUIRY WILL BE HELD INTO THE
EVENTS SURROUNDING THE DEATH OF
DUDLEY GEORGE.

Susanna says THIS WEEK THAT INQUIRY
HEARD TAPES OF A CONVERSATION
BETWEEN OPP OFFICER RON FOX
AND THEN WORK FOR THE QUEEN'S
PARK BUREAUCRATS AND THEN JOHN
CARSON THE INCIDENT COMMANDER
AT IPPERWASH.
FOX TELLS OF MEETING HE HAD
ATTENDED WITH NUMEROUS
BUREAUCRATS.
AND INCLUDING MIKE MARIS'S AID
DEPUTY HUTTON.

The caption changes to "Audio recording. Voice of OPP Officer Ron Fox."

Ron says THE PREMIER HAS MADE CLEAR
TO HER HIS POSITION.
AND BOTTOM LINE IS WANTS THEM
OUT AND I SAID YOU GOT TO
UNDERSTAND THAT THE PROVINCIAL
POLICE WILL NEVER SHIRK THE
RESPONSIBILITY BUT, READ THEIR
HANDS WILL GET DIRTY.
READ SO WILL THE GOVERNMENT.

Susanna says THE DAY OF THE SHOOTING, FOX
SPOKE TO CARSON ABOUT A
MEETING HE HAD I ATTENDED
EARLIER WITH HARRIS AND
SEVERAL SENIOR CABINET
MINISTERS.

The caption changes to "Audio recording. Voice of OPP Officers Ron Fox and John Carson."

Ron says JOHN WE'RE DEALING
WITH A REAL RED NECK
GOVERNMENT.
THEY ARE FUCKING BARREL FUCKERS
THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH GUNS.
THERE IS NO QUESTION THEY
COULD CARE LESS ABOUT CIVILIANS.

John says WE AREN'T PREPARED TO DO THAT
YET

Ron says THE PREMIER ADAMANT THIS
IS NOT AN ISSUE OF NATIVE
RIGHTS.
AND IN HIS WORDS, I AM MEAN WE
HAVE TRIED TO PACIFY HIM AND
PANDER TO THESE PEOPLE FOR TOO
LONG.
IT IS NOW TIME FOR AFFIRMATIVE
ACTION.

Susanna says THE CHIEF GOT ON THE LINE AND
WARNED FOX NOT TO PUT HIMSELF
IN A POSITION THAT COULD ALLOW
FOR POLITICAL INTERFERENCE.
BUT REST OF THE CONVERSATION
IS IN SECRETS.
BECAUSE THE CHIEF INSISTS HE
CALLED FOX BACK FROM ANOTHER
UNRECORDED LINE.

John says WELL, WHAT'S THE PHONE
NUMBER I GOT TO CALL YOU BACK
FROM ANOTHER LINE.

Susanna says STILL, CARSON ACE HE
PROMPTLY FORGET CALL FROM RON
FOX.
AND CONTINUED TO ACT
INDEPENDENTLY.

A clip rolls with the caption "Testimony of John Carson."

The interviewer says WHAT IF ANYTHING, DID YOU DO
AS A RESULT OF THIS CALL?

John says NOTHING.

Back in the studio, Steve says
AND SUSANNA KELLEY JOINS US
NOW.
LET'S GO INTO THOSE TAPES.
WHAT TRANSPIRED IN THAT
MEETING THAT WOULD PROPERTY
THOSE OFFICIALS TO BE
DESCRIBING HARRIS GOVERNMENT
AS BUNCH OF GUN TOTING RED
NECK?

Susanna is in her thirties, with short straight blond hair. She wears a red blazer with black rims and a pendant necklace.

She says WELL THERE WERE TWO PIECES
OF TAPE WE HEARD THAT TOOK
PLACE AFTER TWO DIFFERENT
MEETINGS.
THE FIRST ONE THAT I THINK YOU
ARE REFERRING TO THERE, WAS AN
INTERMINISTERIAL MEETING WHERE
PREMIER HARRIS'S AID DEB
HUTTON AND INDICATED THAT SHE
HAD A SAID PREMIER WANTED THE
NATIVES OUT OF THE PARK AND
NOTHING ELSE.
AFTER -- THE SECOND MEETING,
KNOW THE SECOND CALL, WAS VERY
INTERESTING.
MISTER CARSON HIMSELF, SAID THAT
MISTER FOX WAS VERY FRUSTRATED
IT WAS MORE OF A
PERSONAL FRUSTRATION THAT
WAS COMING OUT.
HE HAD JUST COME OUT AFTER
MEETING WITH PREMIER HARRIS
AND SEVERAL SENIOR CABINET
MINISTERS, WHERE SOURCES FROM
THAT MEETING TELL ME THE
PREMIER HAD CRITICIZED VERY
STRONGLY THE OPP.
AND SAID THAT THEY SHOULD
NEVER HAVE ALLOWED OCCUPATION
TO TAKE PLACE.
IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO HAVE
TAKEN PLACE BECAUSE THERE HAD
BEEN TROUBLE UP THERE.
ALL SUMMER WITH THE NATIVES.
AND HE FELT THAT THEY SHOULD
HAVE TAKEN CARE OF THIS
SITUATION LONG BEFORE.
ONCE THE NATIVES WENT INTO THE
PARK IT WAS MUCH MORE
DIFFICULT TO SOLVE THE
SITUATION AND GET THEM OUT.
SO MISTER HARRIS I THINK WAS
ANGRY.
I AM TOLD HE IS SAID SOMETHING
WORDS TO THE AFFECT YOU KNOW I
AM NOT ALLOWED TO DIRECT THE
OPP.
SO YOU KNOW WHAT?
GOOD LUCK.
TAKE CARE OF IT.
AND HE WAS QUITE ANGRY AND I
THINK THERE FOX CAME OUT OF
THAT MEETING PHONED MISTER CARSON,
MISTER FOX BEING AN OPP OFFICER
WAS VERY FRUSTRATED.
AND THAT WAS THE OTHER TAPE
THAT YOU HEARD.

Steve says WELL THAT SPEAKS TO MY NEXT
QUESTION WHICH WAS DOES THAT
COMMENT BY MISTER HARRIS
CONSTITUTE THE KIND OF
POLITICAL INTERFERENCE THAT
YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO AS
POLITICIAN TO POLICE SERVICES?

Susanna says I DON'T THINK SO MYSELF.
I THINK THAT ANYBODY WHO
LISTENED TO THOSE TAPES THIS
WEEK WOULD HAVE TO COME TO THE
CONCLUSION THAT THERE IS NO
SMOKING GUN ON THOSE TAPES.
THERE IS NO TAPE OF MIKE
HARRIS SAYING YOU KNOW OPP, GO
INTO THE PARK WITH GUNS AND
GET THOSE NATIVES OUT THEREOF.
THAT'S NO WHERE ON THE TAPE.
AND I THINK MISTER HARRIS'S
LAWYER MADE THAT POINT THIS
WEEK.

Steve says OKAY LET'S LOOK AT
IT THE OTHER WAY IS THERE ANY
EVIDENCE THAT POLICE TOOK THE
PRESUMED WISH OF THEIR
POLITICAL MASTERS INTO ACCOUNT
IN THE ACTIONS THAT THEY TOOK?

Susanna says WELL MISTER CARSON ACTUALLY
SAYS NO THAT HE DID NOT.
AND IS THAT HE PROMPTLY FORGOT
THAT PHONE CALL.
AND FROM MISTER FOX.
BUT, YOU KNOW I THINK THAT THE
QUESTION ALSO WILL BE ASKED
FROM SOME OF THE TESTIMONY
THIS WEEK FLIP IT AROUND.
WERE THE OPP -- WAS THERE ANY
EVIDENCE THAT THE OPP WERE
TAKING POLITICS INTO ACCOUNT
AND I THINK WE HAVE SOME
QUOTES FROM --.

Steve says LET'S PULL THEM UP NOW
HERE ARE THE TWO AFOREMENTIONED
PEOPLE JOHN CARSON AND RON FOX
HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS
TAPED CONVERSATION JOHN CARSON
SAYING:

A slate appears with the caption "Taped conversation OPP Officers John Carson and Ron Fox. Carson: Well, I’m hesitant to get too excited about moving on the part until we have some court injunction, like for a mere trespassing it was pretty flimsy grounds, you know to go start arresting people. Fox: Yeah. Carson: It’s not going to rate very good on Canada AM. I’ll tell you. Fox: Yeah, well that’s the whole point really."

Susanna says WELL THE WHOLE IS POINT WHILE WE
HAVE A STRICT SEPARATION OF
POWERS WHERE THE EXECUTIVE LIKE
THE PREMIER AND THE CABINET
ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DIRECT THE
POLICE, WE ARE ALSO SUPPOSED
TO HAVE A VERY STRICT RULE
WHERE THE POLICE ARE NOT
SUPPOSE TONIGHT TAKING
POLITICS INTO ACCOUNT INTO HOW
THEY ENFORCE THE LAW.
THEY ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO
ENFORCE IT FULL STOP PERIOD.
SO, I THINK THERE IS SOME
QUESTIONS AS TO WHETHER -- I
ALSO HEARD THAT SOURCES
TELLING ME THAT IN ONE OF THE
INTERMINISTERIAL MEETINGS RON...
FOX KEPT TALKING ABOUT
POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS OF
VARIOUS OPTIONS SO I THINK
PEOPLE THOUGHT LIKE WHY ARE
THEY WORRYING ABOUT THE
POLITICS.

Steve says GOT YOU.
LAST TEN SECONDS WILL WE SEE
SOME CABINET MINISTER AND
MAYBE EVEN THE PREMIER
TESTIFY?

Susanna says ABSOLUTELY.
OVER THE NEXT MONTH OR TWO, WE
HAVE SOME VERY SENIOR CABINET
MINISTERS ARE GOING APPEAR AND
THEN MISTER HARRIS WILL BE UP
EARLY IN THE SUMMER.

Steve says WALKERTON AND THIS ONE.
HIS SECOND TIME. AND OKAY.
THANK YOU.
FOR THE LATEST ON THE
IPPERWASH INQUIRY WHICH
TAKING PLACE WHERE?

Susanna says DOWN NEAR SARNIA.

Steve says OKAY.
THANK YOU FOR THIS.

Susanna says THANK YOU.

Steve says AND THAT'S "FOURTH READING."
ANOTHER THIS WEEK I AM STEVE
PAIKIN UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY,
THANK YOU.

Music plays as the end credits roll.

Queen’s Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

Editors, Doug Beavan, Julian Lannaman and Paul Spencer.

CEP LOCAL 72m.

Canadian Media Guild.

TNG Canada CWA.

A production of TVOntario.

Copyright. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 2005.

Watch: Confidence Game & Ipperwash