Transcript: John Tory | May 09, 2004

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows John Tory at a press conference.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON
"FOURTH READING."
TORIES IN.
JOHN TORY JOINS THE PC
LEADERSHIP RACE BUT WHAT
DIRECTION SHOULD THE PARTY
BE TAKING?

Steve, Ruth, Richard, and another panelist sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing glasses, a striped grey suit over an off white shirt.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY I AM
STEVE PAIKIN WELCOME TO
"FOURTH READING."
THE NEWEST FACE BEEN CLOSE
TO THE CENTRE OF POWER BOTH
PROVINCIALLY AND FEDERALLY
FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES.
JOHN TORY, LAWYER,
BUSINESSMAN AND LONG TIME
CONSERVATIVE BACK ROOMER HAS
ANNOUNCED HE WILL BE
CONDITION DATE WHEN CURRENT
LEADER ACTUALLY STEPS DOWN.
TORY JOINS FLAHERTY AND
KROES TWO CURRENT MPPS IN
THE RACE THE CONSERVATIVE
STILL BATTERED AND BRUISED
FROM THE LOGS LAST OCTOBER
MUST NOW DECIDE WHICH ROAD
TO TAKE.
SHOULD THEY MOVE CLOSER TO
THE POLITICAL CENTRE OR STAY
TRUE TO MIKE HARRIS'S COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.

A clip plays and Tory appears back at a conference for ToryforOntario.com. He’s in his mid-forties. He has short dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears glasses, a dark suit, white shirt and a contrasting striped tie.

John says I AM ANNOUNCING THAT I
WILL BE SEEKING LEADERSHIP.

Steve says AND TORONTO MAYOR
CANDIDATE JOHN TORY HAS
LAUNCHED HIS BID TO BECOME
LEADER OF THE ONTARIO PC
PARTY.

A caption reads "John Tory. PC Leadership Candidate."

John says I AM COMMITTED TO THE
KIND OF FRESH NEW APPROACH.
I AM COMMITTED TO A NEW
PLATFORM CONSISTENT WITH
CONSERVATIVE POLICIES AND
IDEAS AND VALUES.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME OPEN TO
AND INCLUSIVE TO THE IDEAS
OF OTHERS.

Steve says
ALTHOUGH HE IS NEVER HELD
POLITICAL OFFICE TORY IS A
LONG-TIME CONSERVATIVE.
HE WORKED AS PRINCIPAL
SECRETARY TO FORMER PREMIER
BILL DAVIS.
AND AS ADVISOR TO BOTH PRIME
MINISTER MULRONEY AND KIM
CAMPBELL LAST FALL HE CAME
OUT OF THE NOWHERE TO FILL IN
A STRONG SECOND.

The caption changes to "Christina Blizzard. Toronto Sun." She’s in her fifties. She has short blond hair and wears a black blazer over a white blouse.

Christina says I THINK HE IS VERY
STRONG.
HE THINK HE HAS ALL OF THE
RESOURCES, AND HE CAN RAISE
THE MONEY.
HE PROVED THAT DURING THE
MAYOR CAMPAIGN AND HE IS
WILL REPRESENTS AN URBAN
BASE WIT TORIES DESPERATELY
NEED TO RECONNECT WITH
TORONTO OTTAWA LONDON.
WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN
COMPLETELY SHUT OUT IN
OCTOBER 2 ELECTION.

Steve says
THEY ARE STRUGGLE WILLING TO
REBUILD THEIR PARTY.
AFTER BEING SWEPT FROM POWER
BY AFTER LIBERALS
LAST FALL.
THE PARTY IS MORE THAN 8.5
MILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.
ONTARIO PC LEADER AEAVES
EAVES SAYS HE PLANS TO STEP
DOWN AND SPECULATION IS THE
NEW LEADER WILL BE CHOSE
THEN SEPTEMBER.
TORIES TOUGHEST OWE OBSERVE
MEANT IS LIKELY TO BE FORMER
STORY CABINET MINISTER JIM
FLAHERTY TO CAME SECOND TO
EAVES LAST TIME.
AND HE SAYS THOSE IDEAS
STILL RESONATE WITH VOTER.

The caption changes to "Jim Flaherty. PC Leadership Candidate." He’s in his late forties. He has short dark hair in a neat cut and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, light blue shirt and a striped blue tie.

Jim says
PEOPLE OF ONTARIO BROADLY
DEFINE UNDERSTAND THAT
LIVING WITH OUR MEANS AS
GOVERNMENT THE REDUCING
TAXATION, AND LESS
GOVERNMENT, FOCUSING ON WHAT
WE NEED TO DO IN GOVERNMENT
AND HEALTH CARE AND
EDUCATION AND EXACTLY WHAT
THEY WANT FROM GOVERNMENT.
AND THAT'S WHEN WE SUCCEED.

Steve says
BUT OBSERVERS SAYS
FLAHERTY BRAND OF
CONSERVATIVEISM NOT WHAT
VOTERS ARE LOOKING FOR
ANYMORE.

Christina says
THEY RAN ON A VERY HARD
RIGHT PLATFORM IN LAST
YEAR'S ELECTION IT WAS
BASICALLY JIM FLAHERTY'S
LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN THEY RAN
ON THAT.
AND THE VOTERS OF ONTARIO
REALLY SAID THEY WEREN'T
READY FOR THAT.
IT APPEALED PERHAPS TO THE
CORE VOTE IN RURAL ONTARIO.

Steve says
FORMER CONSERVATIVE CABINET
MINISTER ALSO PLANS TO RUNS
HE SAYS HE WANT TO MOVE AWAY
FROM MIKE HARRIS-SOMETIME
CONSERVATISM.

The caption changes to "Frank Klees. PC Leadership Candidate." He’s in his late forties. He has short dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, light blue shirt and a contrasting tie.

Frank says
WHERE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM,
IS WHEN YOU IDEAL
POSITIONING TO OVERRIDE WHAT
MAKES RESPONSIBLE PUBLIC
POLICY.
DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE
IT IS RIGHT THING TO DO.
REFLECTING CONSERVATIVE
VALUES BUT THEN WHEN COMES
TO IMPLEMENTATION.
MAKE SURE THAT WE RECOGNIZE
THAT PUBLIC POLICY IS
WORKING IN PROGRESS AND
THERE ALWAYS NEEDS TO BE A
RESPONSIVENESS ON PART OF
GOVERNMENT TO THAT.

Steve says JOHN TORY SAYS HE KNOWS
HOW TO REACH OUT TO PARTY
FAITHFUL AND BRING NEW
MEMBERS IN.

John says I WILL WORK WITH EVERY
PARTY MEMBER AND ATTRACT NEW
SUPPORT AND REBUILD
RELATIONSHIPS WITH PARTNERS
WHO IDEAS AND ADVICE WE
NEED.
AND RECRUIT STRONG
CANDIDATES AND ENSURE OUR
APPEAL IN ALL PARTS OF THE
PROVINCE.

Steve says
WHALE BEST WAY FOR THE
CONSERVATIVE TO WIN SEATS
ALL ACROSS THE PROVINCE WHAT
DIRECTION SHOULD THEY TAKE?
HERE TO DISCUSS THAT TWO
TORIES FROM OPPOSITE ENDS
OF THE CONSERVATIVE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
GINA BRANNON AND ROB SAME
OFSON.
FORMER PC CABINET MINISTER
AND BLUE TORY BOTH OF THEM
AT THE MOST ARE UNALIGNED
HAVE NOT DECIDED WHO THEY
WILL SUPPORT.
OUR QUEEN'S PARK ANALYSTS
ARE ALSO HERE TO TAKE THEM
ON.
SEAN CONWAY.
JANET ECKER AND DAVE COOKE.
GINA, TO YOU FIRST.
JOHN TORY'S ENTRANCE INTO
THE RACE GIVES THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY A FORK IN
THE ROAD WHICH WAY DO WOULD
GO?
DO WE GO TOWARDS MODERATION
STICK TO COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION?
WHAT'S YOUR ADVICE?

The caption changes to "Gina Brannan. Ontario PC Activist." She’s in her late forties. She has straight blond hair down to the shoulders and wears a green blazer over a black turtleneck and glasses.

Gina says I PREFER NOT TO CALL IT A
FORK IN THE ROAD.

Steve says WHAT WOULD YOU
CALL IT.

Gina says I WOULD CALL AT THAT
CHOICE.
AND I THINK THERE WILL BE AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR PARTY
MEMBERS TO HAVE A CHOICE AP
VERY CLEAR CHOICE BECAUSE,
THEY KNOW EXACTLY THE
PLATFORM OF MISTER FLAHERTY.
THE PLATFORM OF PHRL TORY
THEY KNOW WHERE HE COMES
FROM.
AND THEY ARE GOING ENTIRELY
DIFFERENT.
THEY ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
INDIVIDUALS THEY COME FROM
DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS.
AND I THINK THAT HAVING THE
CHOICE IS A GOOD THING.
NOW, WE HAD THAT CHOICE BACK
WHEN MISTER MILLER--
I GUESS THE QUESTION THAT
BECOMES IS THE PARTY
PREPARED TO --

Steve says WHICH MILLER
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Gina continues
FROM FRANK MILLER RAN
WHERE WE HAD RIGHT AND THE
LEFT AND THE PARTY OR THE
RED TORIES AND BLUE TORIES
RUNNING AND I THINK THE
PARTY THIS TIME GOING TO
HAVE TO SIT BACK AND NOT
WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THE
PARTY ITSELF, BUT LOOK
BEYOND THAT.
TO THE NEXT ELECTION.
AND WHICH I THINK IS WINNABLE
ELECTION GIVEN WHAT'S
OCCURRED IN THE LAST FEW
MONTHS.
I THINK IT IS WINNABLE
ELECTION BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE
RIGHT DECISIONS.

Steve says WHAT IS THE RIGHT
DECISION?

Gina says
I THINK WE HAVE TO COME BACK
TO THE CENTRE.
I THINK THAT THE THREE
CANDIDATES HAVE TO RECOGNIZE
THAT.
I THINK THEY HAVE TO
RECOGNIZE THAT WHILE THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION MAY
BEEN RIGHT FOR ITS TIME, I
DON'T THINK IT IS RIGHT
ANYMORE.
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR
OUR PARTY TO RECOGNIZE THAT
WE HAVE TO GO BACK AND WE
HAVE TO NOT MAKE FRIENDS BUT
WE HAVE TO GO AND BILE THE
BRIDGES THAT WERE BURNED
WITH RESPECT TO OUR TEACHERS
AND OUR DOCTORS AND THAT
WHOLE SORT OF SOCIAL
SERVICES SIDE.
WHICH I THINK WE WERE ALWAYS
KNOWN FOR MANY YEARS AGO.

Steve says ROB, LET ME GO TO YOU ON
THIS.

The caption changes to "Rob Sampson. Former PC Cabinet Minister." He’s in his fifties. He has short grey hair and a moustache. He wears glasses, a grey suit, white shirt and a patterned tie.

Rob says I AM NOT TOO SURE IT IS
BLUE OR RED OR A LEFT OR
RIGHT OR CENTRE.
I HAVE HATE TO USE THIS
PHRASE.
IT IS USED ALL OF THE TIME
BUT, SOMEHOW WE HAVE TO
RECONNECT TO THE PEOPLE WHO
TRADITIONALLY SUPPORT THE
CONSERVATIVES AND THEN WE VP
NOT IN THE PAST.
WE DIDN'T IN THE PAST WE
DIDN'T CERTAINLY IN LAST
ELECTION THAT'S WHAT I FELT.
GOING DOOR TO DOOR PEOPLE
FELT WE WEREN'T JUST SPEAK
FOR THEM ANYMORE WE NEED
FIND OUT WHAT THAT IS.
AND I DON'T IT IS
PAINTED IN ANY PARTICULAR
COLOUR WHETHER BLUE OR GREEN
OR WHATEVER.
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE'S
VIEWS ARE LEFT AND SOME
ISSUES AND RIGHT ON SOME
ISSUES AND WE JUST NEED TO
FIND OUT WHERE THEY ARE AND
IDENTIFY WITH THEM SO THEY
CAN SAY WELL, LOOK THAT'S
THE PERSON I WANT IN
GOVERNMENT TO DO WHAT I WANT
TO DO THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR
ME TO KNOW
WHAT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM AT
THEIR HOME.
AS THINK SID AROUND KITCHEN
TABLE AND TAKE JOHNNIE TO
THE HOCKEY GAME OR SOCCER
GAME.

The caption changes to "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister." She’s in her fifties. She has short dark brown hair and wears glasses, and black blazer over a striped shirt.

Janet says I THINK ROB MAKES A GOOD
POINT BECAUSE OUR PARTY HAS
BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN
GOVERNMENT NOT WHEN WE HAVE
BEEN RUNNING TO A FAR LEFT
OR RUNNING TO A FAR RIGHT.
BUT WHEN WE HAVE BEEN ABLE
TO PRESENT A COMPREHENSIVE
SET OF VALUES.
AND PRINCIPLES AND APPROACH
THAT REST IS ON FAITH WITH
PEOPLE.
WHETHER YOU WANT TO CALL
POCKET BOOK ISSUES OR YOU
KNOW SOCCER MOM OR WHATEVER
THAT WAS WAVE HOW WE WON IN
59 BECAUSE MIKE MARIS WAS
ABLE TO PUT TOGETHER NOT
RIGHT WINGERS OR LEFT
WINGERS YOU CAN'T WIN FROM
ONE POLITICAL SPECTRUM BUT
HE ATTRACTED COALITION OF
PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO SUPPORT
THOSE SOLUTIONS AND THOSE
POLICIES.

Steve says BUT, WELL HANG ON A
SECOND.
I MEAN NO ONE WOULD MISTAKE
BILL DAVIS'S CONSERVATIVE
PARTY OR JOHN'S CONSERVATIVE
PARTY WITH MIKE HARRIS'S
CONSERVATIVE PARTY OR JIM
FLAHERTY'S THEY ARE
DIFFERENT.
VERY MUCH SO.
SO THERE A CHOICE THAT IS
HAD A TO BE MADE RIGHT NOW.
WHICH WITH A I DO WOULD GO?

Janet says
I DON'T SEE AS A BLACK
AND WHITE LEFT OR RIGHT.
BECAUSE FOR EXAMPLE ALL
THREE CANDIDATES, ARE FISCAL
CONSERVATIVES.
ALL THREE CANDIDATES HAVE
CREDENTIALS ON GRASS ROOTS
ACTIVITIES.

Steve says BUT THEY DON'T ALL FEEL
THE SAME ABOUT TAX CUTS.

Janet continues
BUT ALL THREE CANDIDATES
ARE TALKING ABOUT
COMPETITIVE TAXES KEEPING
THEM DOWN MAYBE REDUCING
THEM.
AND THEY ARE ALL TALKING
ABOUT THAT AS VERY IMPORTANT
PART OF THE ECONOMIC AGENDA.

The caption changes to "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister." He’s in his mid-forties. He has short dark hair in a neat cut and is clean-shaven. He wears a brown suit over a pale green shirt.

Dave says JOHN TORY TALKS ABOUT
THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT AND
SEES THAT THE ROLE FOR
GOVERNMENT IN OUR SOCIETY.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY
THAN MISTER FLAHERTY HORPL
TALKS ABOUT TAX CUTS AND NOT
ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF
COMPETITIVENESS BUT
MISTER FLAHERTY AND HIS BRAND
OF TORY POLITICS, TALKS
ABOUT TAX CUTS AS WAY OF
SHRINKING GOVERNMENT.
AND I THINK WE HAVE BEEN
THROUGH A LOT IN LAST NUMBER
OF YEARS.
PEOPLE NOW SEE 1995 KEEP IN
MIND AND IT IS STRANGE TO
HEAR TORY TALKING ABOUT
UNITY OF LEFT AND RIGHT
WITHIN THEIR OWN PARTY.
BUT, IN 1959 WE WERE IN MIST
OF A VERY DEEP RECESSION.
FAIR NUMBERS WERE
VERY HIGH.
AND I THINK THAT IT WAS
AN OPENING THING FOR THING
CALLED COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION NOW PEOPLE SEE
YOU LOWER TAXES TOO MUCH AND
YOU GET WALKERTON AND YOU
GET PROBLEMS IN THE PUBLIC
SCHOOLS AND YOU MAY GET
PROBLEMS WITH MEAT
INSPECTORS I THINK THERE HAS
BEEN REAL EDUCATION IN LAST
TEN YEARS ABOUT WHAT ROLE OF
GOVERNMENT IS JOHN TORY
SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO LINK TO
THAT WHERE AS I THINK
MISTER FLAHERTY'S BRAND OF
TORY POLITICS WOULD HAVE
MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TIME.

Rob says YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT
GOVERNMENT BECAUSE YOU WANT
TO GOVERNMENT -- GOVERNMENT
HAS TO BE THERE FOR A REASON
PEOPLE -- LIKE THE CSR HIT
HOT BUTTON BECAUSE PEOPLE
FELT THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO
KEEP THEIR JOB IF THIS PLAN
GETS IMPLEMENTED.
THAT'S PRETTY IMPORTANT IF
YOU ARE SITTING AROUND
LOOKING TO PAY --.

Dave says LOT OF ANGER
AS WELL.

Gina says IT DID IN IT DID IN WHAT
PARED HAPPENED TO OUR PARTY
THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT
WHEN MISTER HARRIS WON IT WAS
TEN YEARS AFTER HE HAD BEEN
IN SPOT THAT HE BEEN IN AND
HE HAD WATCHED WHAT
WAS HAPPENING AS DAVID
TALKED ABOUT IN THE PROVINCE.
OUR PARTY WAS SMART I MEAN
IT FOLLOWED THE PEOPLE.
RIGHT AND I DON'T HAVE ANY
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
AND THAT'S WHAT I HOPE WHEN
OUR PARTY COMES TOGETHER IN
THIS CONVENTION, THAT THEY
HAVE NOT THOUGHT ABOUT JUST
THE PULSE OF THE PARTY BUT
THOUGHT ABOUT THE PULSE OF
THE WHOLE PROVINCE IN
CHOOSING THEIR NEXT LITTER.

Dave says IT IS DIFFERENT IN
STYLE.
ARE REAL DIFFERENCE IN STYLE
THAT'S IMPORTANT AND
MISTER FLAHERTY.

Steve says WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

Dave says WHEN YOU HEAR JOHN TORY
TALK HE TALKS ABOUT THE
BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.
THAT'S QUITE A DIFFERENT
STYLE AND A DIFFERENT
APPROACH TO POLITICS.

Steve says SEAN CONWAY THIS IS
LONGEST YOU HAVE GONE IN ANY
PROGRAM WITHOUT SAYING
SOMETHING.

Janet says I HAVE KICKED HIM TWICE.

Steve says
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT LIBERALS
THINK ON THIS ISSUE?
WHO FEAR MORE
AS LEADER OF THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY?

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister." He’s in his fifties. He has short dark blond hair in a neat cut and is clean-shaven. He wears glasses, a dark suit, light blue shirt and a contrasting tie.

Sean says WELL, I THINK IT DEPENDS
WHERE YOU ARE.

Steve says THAT WAS HELL AFTER LONG
SPOUT WASN'T IT.

Sean continues THEY FEAR NO ONE.
NO LISTEN YOU CAN'T HAVE
BEEN DOING POLITICS IN
ONTARIO IN LAST 20 YEARS AND
NOT FEARED NEXT ELECTION.
AND WUFPBLT INTERESTING
THINGS I THINK BETWEEN JOHN
TORY AND THE OTHER TWO
CANDIDATES AT THIS POINT IS
THE JOHNER TO REAP IS THE
DOWNTIME TOWN TORY VERY
PROGRESSIVE I THINK IN TERMS
OF THE CONTINUUM IS AND VERY
TRADITIONAL RED TORY I
THINK AS MOST PEOPLE WOULD
AGREE AND HE IS GOING TO BE
AT THIS POINT RUNNING
AGAINST TWO EVIDENTLY OF
POLITICIANS JIM FLAHERTY AND
FRANK KROES AND I THINK
ONE OF THE REALLY
INTERESTING THINGS THAT'S
CHANGING IN THE ONTARIO
POLITICAL CULTURES WE ARE
INCREASINGLY POLITICAL
CALLTURE THE GROWTH IS ALL
IS THE SUBURBS WHETHER IT IS
AROUND TORONTO OR AROUND
OTTAWA OR AROUND KITCHENER
AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS I
WILL BE TROD SEE HOW DOES
JOHN TORY WHO IS THE
DOWNTOWN TORY THE DOWNTOWN
TORONTO TORY RELATE TO
AREAS WHERE CLEARLY FLAIR
FEE AND THEMSELVES ENJOYED
SOME SUCCESS.

Steve says THAT'S A REALLY GOOD
POINT I WANT TO PUT TO GINA.
HE HAS PROVEN HIS MUNICIPAL
ISSUES ON ISSUES THAT ARE
IMPORTANT TO THE CITIES.
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
TODAY IS NOT A CITY PARTY.
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY TODAY
IS BARELY SAW BUSHIAN PARTY
IS JOHN TORY OUT OF STEP
WITH THE VAST MAJORITY OF
MEMBERS OF THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY TODAY AND THEREFORE DO
MAKE IT HARDER FOR HIM TO
WIN?

Gina says
I AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT
ON WHERE JOHN TORY IS BEING
ON A LINE.
BUT I WILL COMMENT ON OUR
PARTY.
I THINK OUR PARTY IS OUT OF
THE STEP.
OUR PARTY HAS BECOME A RURAL
PARTY.
AND YOU WILL BECOME RURAL
RUMP FRANKLY.
AND I THINK THAT WHAT OUR
PARTY HAS TO DO DECIDE AND
LOOK RECOGNIZE IS THAT THE
PROVINCE IS MADE UP OF MORE
THAN RURAL ONTARIO MORE THAN
905 WE LIKE TO SEE SOME WINS
IN 416.
AND SOME WINS IN 705 UP
NORTH.
AND SOME WINS IN 519.
AND 613 FOR THAT MATTER.
AND I MEAN WE WOULDN'T -- WE
DON'T HAVE THAT WE DON'T
HAVE THAT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE,
OUR PARTY AND MY VIEW HAS
BEEN SO AS OPPOSED TO OPEN
THAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE
LIVING IN -- OUR PARTY IS IT
IN A FISHBOWL.

Steve says
MISTER TORY SPOKE TO THIS.
LET'S PLAY A BIT OF THAT
CLIP AND THEN COME BACK AND
TALK ABOUT IT.

A new clip shows Tory at a press conference.

John says
WE SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD TO
CONTINUE GO 0 FOR 15 IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO 0 FOR 272
IN CITY OF TORONTO.
HANDFUL OUT OF THE 60 BIG
AND SMALL CITY SEATS IN THIS
PROVINCE.
AND HOPE TO WIN AN ELECTION
AND IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE
NUMBERS NEEDED TO WIN.
IT IS NOT RIGHT THAT THAT
KIND OF DISCONNECTION CAN
EXIST BETWEEN OUR PARTY AND
THOSE PEOPLE.

The clip ends.

Steve says
ROB IS CLEARLY MAKE THE
ARGUMENT THAT THIS PARTY OF
YOURS NEEDS A MORE URBAN
LOOK TO IT.
IN LEADER’S ROLE THAN IT HAS
IN PAST EVEN WHEN MIKE
HARRIS WAS RACKING UP BACK
TO BACK MAJORITY GOVERNMENT.
DOES THAT NOT SPEAK TO THE
IMPORTANCE OF A GUY LIKE
TORY GETTING IN THE RACE
AND WINNING.

Rob says
WELL WHAT IT SPEAKS TO
IMPORTANCE OF SOMEONE THE
PARTY AND THE LEADER.
FIGURING OUT WHAT THE ISSUES
ARE RURAL ONTARIO WANTS A
LEADER -- A PREMIER TO DEAL
WITH AND ISSUES THAT URBAN
ONTARIO WANTS PREMIER TO
DEAL WITH.
THERE IS NO REASON WHY PBT
YOU CAN HAVE PREMIER SPEAK
TO BOTH OF THOSE GROUPS
THERE IS NO REASON WHY A
PARTY CAN'T ADOPT POLICIES
THAT CAN SPEAK TO THE
KITCHENS AND ONTARIO AS WELL
AS KITCHENS IN MISSISSAUGA.

Dave says ONE LEADER SO FAR THAT
CANDIDATE THAT'S GOT INTO
THIS AND I WOULD SAY
COMPARED TO EITHER THE
LIBERALS FEDERALLY OR
PROVINCIALLY OR THE NEW
DEMOCRATS THAT HAS
ARTICULATED -- WHEN I LISTEN
TO HIM, BOTH ON STUDIO 207
LAST NIGHT AND THE OTHER DAY
OF HE TALKS ABOUT URBAN
AGENDA, IN A WAY THAT HAS
THE SOPHISTICATION THAT WE
HAVE NOT HEARD FROM ANY
POLITICIAN.
HE DOES NOT JUST TALK ABOUT
TWO CENTS ON GAS TAX.
HE TALKS ABOUT GOVERNANCE
RESPONSIBILITY AND
MAN DATES AND TAXING POWERS.
AND I MEAN IT IS FRESH AIR.
I MEAN HE IS NOT MY PARTY
BUT I THINK --.

Rob says YOU WANT TO SIGN UP?

They all laugh.

Janet says HE IS NOT MY PARTY.

Dave continues
I THINK TO ADD TO THIS
DISCUSSION JUST TO GOING
WHAT SEAN SAID FOR A MINUTE
LET'S NOT OVERSTATE THE
ISSUE.
IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT LOT OF
THE AREAS OF 905 NOW I MEAN
LOOK WHAT HAPPENED IN
MISSISSAUGA AND YORK AND LAST
FEW -- CRIME SEEMS TO BE
MORE OF AN ISSUE.
GOING INTO THE SCHOOLS IN
PEEL AND THEY DON'T LOOK
LIKE SUBURBAN SCHOOLS.

Janet says
BUT THEY ARE LOOKED AUNT
9:00 AM.
LET'S GO BACK TO SOMETHING
GINA SAID WE DIDN'T LOSE THE
LAST ELECTION BECAUSE WE
WERE RURAL OR SAW BUSH OWE
LOST IT BECAUSE WE WERE NOT
ABLE TO PUT OUT A
COHERENT SET OF POLICIES OR
WHAT WE DID STAND FOR.
PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE
WERE STANDING FOR.
SO THAT'S -- IT WAS CONFUSED
MESS IF YOU WILL IN TERMS OF
THEM TRYING TO MAKE A
DECISION.
SO IT WAS NOT -- THE --

Steve says I
KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO
SAY IT WAS MORE OF JIM
FLAHERTY'S PLATFORM COMING
OUT OF EASTERN KNEE EAVES
MOUTH NO ONE BOUGHT THAT.

Janet says SO TO ME THAT IS WITH A
NOT COMMENT ABOUT WHETHER
JIM FLAHERTY'S PLATFORM WAS
GOOD OR BAD OR EAVES’
PLATFORM WAS GOOD OR BAD.

Rob says THEY DIDN'T SEE THE
CREDIBILITY THEY WANTED TO
SEE IN TERMS OF VOTING.

Janet says I AM NOT SURE IS THERE
CONNECT BETWEEN KNOWS
POLICIES AND WHAT PEOPLE
RURAL OR URBAN OR WHATEVER
THEY WANT GOOD SCHOOLS THEY
WANT GOOD HOSPITAL THEY WANT
LOWER TAX.
THEY WANT GOVERNMENT THAT IS
SOLVING PROBLEMS BUT NOT IN
THEIR FACE ALL OF THE TIME.

Sean says I HAVE REALLY GOT A
QUESTION FOR MY CONSERVATIVE
FRIENDS HERE BECAUSE THIS IS
A LEADERSHIP RACE.
THE SECOND
ELECTORATE IS GENERAL
ELECTORATE BUT ONE OF
QUESTIONS I WOULD HAVE TO
JANET AND ROB AND GENE THAT
WHAT IS MAKE UP OF THE PARTY
ELECTORATE GOING TO BE THAT
CHOOSES ONE OF THESE THREE
MEN?

Janet says THAT'S WHAT MEMBER ONE
VOTE SO EXCITING ABOUT.

Gina says THAT'S THE POINT I WAS
MAKING.
THE PARTY CANNOT BE WE
CANNOT GO IN THERE AND DO A
FIGHT BETWEEN THE RIGHT AND
THE LEFT.
WE CAN'T -- THAT WOULD BE
TOTALLY DEADLY WHAT WE HAVE
TO DO IS WE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND BEYOND OUR PARTY
WHAT IS GOING ON OUTSIDE OF
OUR PARTY SO WE PICK THE
LEADER WHO IS THE BEST
PERSON TO REPRESENT THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
VERY SIMPLE.

Sean says THAT'S VERY SENSIBLE AND
VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD THE
QUESTION IS HE THAT LIKELY
TO HAPPEN?
BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT
WHAT SOME PARTIES IN THEIR
FEDERAL LIBERALS WHO COME
THROUGH WHAT LOOKS LIKE A
PRETTY DIFFICULT LEADERSHIP
RAGS.
IN TERMS OF THE IN.

Gina giggles and says
WE DON'T DO STUFF LIKE
THAT.

Janet says WE ARE NEVER HAS
BLOODIEST AS THAT.

Steve says THIS IS
WHAT JOHN TORY SAID AT HIS
ANNOUNCEMENT WE KNOW WE HAVE
ATTRACT MORE WOMEN AND MORE
YOUNG PEOPLE, AND NEW
CANADIAN TO THE PARTY RANK
IFs WE ARE UNDERSTAND AND
REST NEEDS AND ASPIRATIONS
OF ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF
ONTARIO.
I DON'T THINK I EVER HEARD
MIKE HARRIS SAY THAT.
MIKE HARRIS WAS NARROW
CASTING TO HIS BASE AND IT
WAS ELECTION SUCCESSFUL THIS
IS DIFFERENT MESSAGE.
WILL THIS SELL AMONG THE
VAST SWATH OF CONSERVATIVE
IN THE PROVINCE?

Rob says I THINK THERE.
JOHN'S POINT IS VERY GOOD.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE
SURE THAT PEOPLE IN THE
PARTY REPRESENT THE PEOPLE
AT LARGE.
AND THE POINT IS THEY WILL
COME TO THE PARTY AND JOIN
THE PARTY AND BE ACTIVE IN
PARTY POLITICS IF THEY THINK
THAT THIS IS A GROUP OF
PEOPLE A LEADER POTENTIAL
LEADER OR GROUP OF LEADERS
WHO WILL SPEAK TO THEIR
INTERESTS.
AND THIS DISCONNECT VERY
IMPORTANT.
THERE WAS BIG DISCONNECT
BETWEEN WHERE ONTARIO IN
GENERAL WANTED TO GO AND
WHERE WE WITH A WERE TALK
TAKING THEM AS GOVERNMENT
YOU KNOW THE FAVOUR OF
HEALTH CARE.

Janet says
WELL WHAT DOES AT THAT MEAN
TO PERSON WHO WATCHING TV
SITTING IN THE COUCH.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO THEM?
AND LET ME TAKE ISSUE WITH
YOU, STEVE MY MAKE HER REST
DIDN'T WIN BECAUSE OF QUOTE
THE BASE.
THE TORY BASE IN THIS
PROVINCE IS HAPPEN 257 OR
27.

Steve says SURE.
FOR SURE.

Janet continues
HE GOT 45 OR 54 PERCENT OF THE
VOTE SO GETS BACK TO ROB'S
POINT AND LIKE WHETHER
PEOPLE ARE LEFT OR RIGHT,
THEY WANT GOOD SERVICES.
THEY WANT YOU KNOW BETTER
SCHOOLS.
AND I MEAN, AND THERE IS A
LOT OF THINGS THAT IF YOU
APPEAL TO THEM, WITH THOSE
ISSUES AND THEY HAVE KNOW
YOUR CREDIBLE AND HAVE TO
KNOW YOU HAVE SOME
PRINCIPLES AND VALUES THAT
DRIVE THEY HAVE TO KNOW
WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND WHAT
YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE.
AND THEY ARE PREPARED TO
FOLLOW YOU WHETHER YOU ARE
LEANING A LITTLE BIT TO THE
LEFT OR A LITTLE BIT TO THE
RIGHT.
AND IF THEY ARE SEEING THAT
CREDIBILITY AND
VALUES AND PRINCIPLES.

Dave says
BUT MIKE HARRIS HE USED
WEDGE POLITICS TO APPEAL TO
THE 40-45 PERCENT AND TO HAVE
PEOPLE LOOK AT SELF
INTERESTS.
AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I THINK I
HEAR FROM JOHN TORY THAT
TALKS ABOUT COMMUNITY
INTERESTS.
AND MUCH BROADER WHICH IS
AGAIN, A COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT APPROACH AND I
THINK IS A MUCH MORE
APPEALING APPROACH BECAUSE I
THINK THE PROVINCE IS
CHANGED IN LAST 15 YEARS.

Sean says
ONE OF THE INTERESTING
THINGS ABOUT MIKE HARRIS FOR
WHICH HE DOES NOT ALWAYS GET
CREDIT HARRIS FOR ALL OF HIS
RIG GORE ON THE ECONOMIC
AGENDA WHICH SOME WOULD SAY
IT WAS QUITE RIGHT WING WAS
QUITE FIRM ABOUT KEEPING A
LID ON THE VERY EXPLOSIVE
ISSUES IN SOCIAL
CONSERVATISM.
AND SOME OTHER CONSERVATIVE
PARTIES AROUND CONTINENT OF
LATE HAVE HAD A VERY REAL
PROBLEM STRUGGLING WITH THAT
THAT IT IS THE SOCIAL AGENDA
ON THE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT
THAT HAS FOREIGN SOME
POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS
APART.
ONE OF THE INTERESTING
THINGS FOR ME IN THIS RACE
IS GOING TO BE WHERE FOR
EXAMPLE DOES FRANK KLEES
COME TO REST.
I THINK HE MAYBE -- I DON'T
THINK HE IS GOING TO WIN
THIS RACE.
BUT FRANK KLEES MAYBE RATHER
MORE IMPORTANT AT THE FINAL
BALLOT THAN -- BECAUSE MY
SENSE OF FRANK IS THAT HE IS
GOING BUILD A FAIRLY STRONG
CONNECTION TO THE SOCIAL
CONSERVATIVES WITHIN THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY AS I
UNDERSTAND.

Gina says
LET ME SAY ONE THING AND
THIS WOULD BE A LITTLE
COMMERCIAL FOR THE
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY OF ONTARIO.
ONE MEMBER ONE VOTE, 1989.
TONY CLEMENT AND I
CHANGED -- BROUGHT THAT
CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE TO OUR
PARTY.
I THINK IT IS TIME FOR OUR
PARTY TO USE THAT ONE MEMBER
ONE VOTE BECAUSE, IF WE...
IF WE EXPAND OUR RANK AND
PEOPLE CAN TAKE -- HAVE A
STAKE IN HOT LEADER I DON'T
MEAN JUST TORIES.
I LIKE TO SEE MY FRIEND
DAVID COOK JOINT PARTY TO
CHOOSE OUR NEXT LEADER.

Rob says
I THINK HE IS HALF THERE.

Gina giggles and continues
BUT WHAT I AM SAYING IS
THAT IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT
YOUR STRIPE.
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOUR
POLITICS.
IT IS ONE MEMBER ONE VOTE.
AND EVERYBODY IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO IF THEY
WANT TO CHOOSE THE NEXT
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
LEADER OF THIS PROVINCE THEY
CAN JOIN THE PARTY.
AND DO THAT.
AND I WELCOME THEM TO.

Steve says
LET ME ASK NOR PRACTICAL
QUESTION IN TERMS OF WHAT
JOHN TORY HAS GOT TO DO
RIGHT NOW.
AEAVES GROSSMAN MILLER DAVIS,
JOHN ROBERTS.
EVERY LEADER OF THE
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY FOR LAST HALF CENTURY
HAS BEEN ELECTED.
HAS HAD A SEAT HAS BEEN MPP.
JOHN TORY NEVER BEEN
ELECTED TO ANYTHING.
DO YOU HAVE A DIFFICULT
TIME TRYING TO BE LEADER OF
POLITICAL PARTY WHEN YOU HAVE
NEVER WON ANYTHING SO FAR?

Rob says I -- I DON'T THINK SO.
I AM NOT GOING TO SAY I AM
SAME QUITE THE SAME
CATEGORY.
BUT I GOT INTO THE POLITICS
HAVING HAD NO INVOLVEMENT IN
POLITICS PRIOR THAT.

Steve says
BUT YOU RAN FOR A SEAT.

Rob says NO.
I WAS NOT CARD CARRYING
MEMBER.
SO I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY
REFRESHING FOR VOTERS TO
HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT
BEEN INVOLVED IN POLITICS
ELECTED OFFER TO BE ELECTED
AGAIN.
AND OFFER THEIR SERVICES.
THAT WAS REFRESHING TO SOME
OF THE PEOPLE.

Steve says I THINK THAT MIGHT BE
ADVANTAGE TO HIM.

Janet says
BUT, I THINK WHAT PEOPLE
ARE GOING TO LOOK FOR IS THE
APPROACH HE IS TAKING.
THE POLICIES HE IS PUTTING
FORWARD.
THE TRACK RECORD HE HAS THIS
IN TERMS OF WHAT HE HAS DONE
WITH HIS LIFE WHAT HE CAN DO
WITH HIS LIFE.
THIS IS A MAN WHO HAD
LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE NOT
ONLY IN BUSINESS BUT AS
COMMUNITY ACTIVIST.
AND IN THE POLITICS BEFORE.
AND YES IT WAS IN NOT AS
LEAKED HIGHWAY DONE
LEADERSHIP VERY, VERY WELL.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT
THEY ARE GOING TO LOOK AT
TRACK RECORD OF ALL THREE OF
THEM.

Steve says AND THE FACT THAT TWO OF
THEM WILL HAVE MORE OF TRACK
IN PUBLIC, REALLY TIRED OF THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION PER SE.
TAX CUTS, BALANCED BUDGETS
PROGRAM SPENDING IN CERTAIN
AREAS.
OR ARE THEY JUST FED UP WITH
TEN YEARS OF STRIFE WHICH
THEY SAW UNDER MIKE HARRIS?

Gina says
IN -- IN MY CIRCLE WHERE
I TRAVEL AND MY BUSINESS,
AND IN MY COMMUNITY WORK,
WHAT WAS CLEAR TO ME AS SOON
AS PEOPLE FIND OUT I WAS A
TORY WHAT WAS CLEAR TO ME
IS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE
THE COMBATIVE NATURE OF OUR
PARTY THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE
FACT THAT WE JUST COULDN'T
BUILD ANY CONSENSUS WITH
THOSE GROUPS TEACHERS
DOCTORS,.

Steve says SO IT MIGHT NOT BE THE
PLATFORM THEN?

Gina says
WELL I THEIR -- I THINK YOU
CAN HAVE -- BE BASICALLY
CONSERVATIVE.
AND YOU CAN DO THE STAND FOR
THE LAW AND ORDER ISSUES.
BUT, THE QUESTION IS HOW DO
YOU DELIVER THEM AND HOW DO
YOU -- HOW DO YOU BRING ALL
OF THOSE VARIOUS GROUPS
TOGETHER SO THAT EVERYBODY
IS PREPARED TO GET ON BOARD.
YOU CAN'T DO IT WHEN YOU ARE
COMBAT TI AND I THINK
TOWARDS THE END OF
MISTER HARRIS'S TIME IN
GOVERNMENT, THAT'S WHAT
PEOPLE WERE TIRED OF.
THEY WERE TIRED OF THE
FIGHTING.

Steve says TOO MANY RIOTS ONV
EVERY NIGHT.

Janet says
AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD
POINT BOUGHT GENIUS OF WHAT
MAKE REMEMBER HAD DID IN 95
WAS TO COME IN TELLING
PEOPLE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO
BE TOUGH.
THEY WERE GOING TO BATTLES
SO THE MORE BATTLES YOU HAD
THE MORE PEOPLE WENT RIGHT
HE IS DOING WHAT HE SAID HE
WOULD DO.
BUT WE’VE STARTED TO SET
IN WHEN YOU HAD FAMILY
MEMBER WHO WITH A NURSES OR
TEACHER OR YOU KNOW STARTED
FAMILY DEBATES STARTED TO
WEARING PEOPLE DOWN.
SO EVEN TO -- AND I KNOW
WHEN EASTERN KNEE WAS RUN
FOR LEADER I REMEMBER ONE OF
THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WHEN I
WAS BRIEFLY ALMOST A
LEADERSHIP CANDIDATE I WAS
CALLING RIDING PRESIDENTS IN
RIDING AND I KNEW THAT THEY
WERE BLUE TORIES IF YOU
WILL VERY, VERY SMALL
CONSERVATIVES.
AND THEY WERE SAYING TO ME
AND YOU KNOW IT IS TIME FOR
A BIT OF DIFFERENT APPROACH.
AND THEY WANTED TO -- THE
SAME PRINCIPALS SAME VALUES.
BUT THEY WERE INTO A SORT OF
A MORE CONSENSUS BUILDING SO
THAT EVERY THING WAS NOT A
FIGHT.

Sean says
BUT I THINK ONE OF THE
TRAGEDIES OF EAVES
LEADERSHIP WAS THAT FOR
THOSE OF US WHO NEW EASTERN
KNEE AND I THINK THAT'S DAVE
AND MYSELF AS WELL AS
OUR THREE PANELIST I THINK
MOMENT WHO KNEW HIM HE WAS
ESSENTIALLY RED TORY.
AND THE TRAGEDY OF HIS
LEADERSHIP WAS THAT HE
APPEARED TO BE PROJECTED
SOMETHING THAT MOST OF US
WHO KNEW HIM BELIEVED HE WAS
NOT.
SO IT IS THAT DISCONNECT
THAT BETWEEN WHAT YOU SAY
YOU ARE VERSUS WHAT PEOPLE
REALLY THINK YOU ARE.
AND I THINK THE NEXT LEADER.

Steve says
AND WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

Sean says
WELL I THINK PART IT MAY
BE.
BUT PART OF IT MAY BE THAT
EAVES I THINK JANET
DESCRIBED THE SITUATION
RATHER WELL BUT THE
DIFFICULTY WAS LEADERSHIP
HAD TO STILL CONNECT TO THE
MILITANTS IN THE PARTY.
AND THE MIKE HARRIS DID
CHANGE THE PARTY.
NOW IT MAY BE THAT IT WILL
CHANGE AGAIN IN THE COURSE
OF THIS RACE.
BUT I THINK THE CHALLENGE
THAT EAVES FACED WAS HOW DID
HOW COULD TAKE PARTY AS
MODERATE BACK TO WHERE A LOT
OF DIDN'T WANT TO GO THEN.
IT MAYBE DIFFERENT TWO OR
THREE OR FOUR YEARS FROM
NOW.

Gina says IN DEFENCE OF EASTERN
KNEE, HE SAT IN MIKE HARRIS
CABINET.
AND I THINK HE HAD BEEN THE
PROGRESS IN DAVIS
YEARS.
AND HE HAD GONE INTO THE
MIKE HARRIS CABINET AND HE
HAD YOU KNOW BOUGHT INTO THE
COMMENTS COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION AND THEN, COME
BACK OUT VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT.
VERY DIFFICULT.

Steve says AND HE SWITCHED.
WE COULD GO ON BUT THE CLOCK
SAYS WE CAN'T.
DAVE COOK AND ROB.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
JANET ECKER, SEAN CONWAY
THANK YOU.
WHAT GREAT POLITICAL NAME
JOHN TORY.

Steve concludes THAT'S "FOURTH READING."
FOR THIS WEEK.
I AM STEVE PAIKIN UNTIL NEXT
SUNDAY THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2004, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: John Tory