Transcript: Healthy People, Karen Mock | Feb 23, 2004

(music plays)

In animation, against a backdrop of colourful squares in hues of purple, blue and orange, words fly by as clips show people performing different activities: More to Health, More to Education, More to Science, More to Money, More to Family, More to Ontario. Finally, the title of the show reads "More to life."

Mary Ito sits in a studio made of translucent panes that mimic the animated presentation of the show.

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair and bangs. She's wearing a brown jacket.

Mary says HELLO. I AM MARY ITO. WELCOME TO MORE TO LIFE. ON MONDAY WE TRY TO UNCOVER SOME OF THE MYSTERY OF HEALTH. ONE QUESTION THAT WE HAVE ASKED BEFORE THAT SOUNDS STRAIGHTFORWARD IS WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE HEALTHY AND OTHERS NOT. AND THE SWRS TO THAT QUESTION ARE THE MOST INTRIGUING THAT WE HAVE HEARD. WE ASK ASKED THAT GUEST, DON JOHN FRANK TO COME BACK FOR ROUND 2 ON THIS DISCUSSION. AN EP DEM YOL GIST AND THE DIRECTOR OF POPULATION AND PUBLIC HEALTH AT CANADIAN INSTITUTES FOR HEALTH RESEARCH. HE ALSO LECTURES AT UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, THE MINI MED SCHOOL AND STANDING ROOM ONLY IN THOSE GLASSES, SO HERE'S YOUR CHANCE FOR SOME ONE-ON-ONE WITH OUR DOCTOR...

John is in his late fifties, balding, with a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt and printed gray tie.

Mary continues MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW INCOME LEVEL OR YOU ARE HEALTHIER THAN THOSE AROUND YOU. YOU HAVE COMMENTS ABOUT THAT. SEND US AN E-MAIL. MORE TO LIFE AT tvo.org, OR GIVE US A CALL...

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Mary says HELLO, JOHN. THANKS FOR COMING BACK. LET'S JUST RECAP AND TALK ABOUT, WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE HEALTHY AND OTHERS ARE NOT.

The caption changes to "Doctor John Frank. Epidemiologist."

John says RIGHT, SO WE ALL COME INTO THE WORLD WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT ALREADY DECIDED. WE HAVE SOME GENES, THEY AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE. AND THE KP KINDS EVER HEALTH AND AND THEN THOSE EXPERIENCES ARE ACTUALLY IMPORTANT EVEN BEFORE WE'RE BORN. THE BIRTH WEIGHT YOU HAVE FOR EXAMPLE, HAS A LOT OF INFLUENCE, IT APPEARS OVER DISEASES.

Mary says HOW ABOUT INUT EREO.

John says VERY IMPORTANT. THE ENVIRONMENT, ALL OF IT, NOT JUST PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL BUT, SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT AROUND YOU, ALL OF THESE FACTORS HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY AS WE ACCUMULATE ALL OF THAT EXPERIENCE. GOING THROUGH LIFE. THOSE VERY SAME FACTORS DETERMINE WHAT ILLNESSES WE GET.

Mary says OKAY. NOW, BUT INTERESTINGLY LAST TIME YOU WERE ON, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE, THE SOCIAL FACTORS BEING REALLY HAVING A GREATER IMPACT THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE SUSPECT. WHAT ABOUT THAT, WHAT ABOUT WHERE YOU ARE BORN?

John says RIGHT. MOST PEOPLE HAVE A VERY CLEAR PICTURE OF BIOLOGY BEING IMPORTANT. THEY HEAR A LOT ABOUT THAT. THEY HEAR ABOUT INFECTIONS, THEY HEAR ABOUT VARIOUS KINDS OF DISEASES AND CERTAIN ORGANS OF THE BODY, BUT WHAT THEY OFTEN DON'T KNOW IS THAT THERE IS A PATTERN EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHICH IS THAT THE MORE SOCIAL PRIVILEGE, THE HIGHER THE RANK YOU HAVE ON A SOCIETY, THE BETTER YOUR HEALTH AND THE LONGER YOU LIVE, THERE ARE JUST A FEW CONDITIONS THAT DOESN'T HOLD TRUE FOR. ASTHMA, ALLERGIES, PERHAPS BREAST CANCER, BUT FOR THE MAJORITY OF ILLNESSES ACROSS THE BOARD, THE MORE EDUCATION YOU HAVE, THE HIGHER YOUR INCOME, THE HIGHER YOUR OCCUPATIONAL STATUS, THE LESS YOUR RISK.

Mary says I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE REVERSE, IS THAT ALSO TRUE THAT THE HEALTHIER YOU ARE TO START ENOUGH IN LIFE THEN THE BETTER YOU WILL DO ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY, LATER ON. WOULD THAT ALSO BE TRUE?

John says IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE A GOOD EARLY CHILDHOOD CONFERS BENEFITS ALL THE WAY THROUGH LIFE. SO, FAR EXAMPLE, HAVING A RICH STIMULATING ENVIRONMENT THAT MAKES YOUR BRAIN GROW WITH LOTS AND LOTS OF RICH CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE CELLS, AND GIVES YOU, SAY, A BETTER START IN SCHOOL, YOU DO BETTER IN SCHOOL, WE KNOW THAT PROTECTS YOU AGAINST ALZHEIMER'S, 70 OR 80 YEARS LATER. DO WE KNOW THAT FOR SURE. WE DO. A VERY FAMOUS STUDY SHOWED THAT THE ESSAY THAT WERE KEPT IN THE GROUP OF NUNS FROM THEIR HIGH SCHOOL YEARS WERE GRADED BY INDEPENDENT EXPERTS ACCORDING TO HOW SOPHISTICATED THE ABILITY WAS WITH LANGUAGE WAGE AND LOOKED AT RATES OF ALZHEIMER'S IN OLD AGE, ALL OF THE RECORDS HAD BEEN KEPT, THE MORE FLUENT AND THE MORE ARTICULATE WITH LANGUAGE, JUST ONE TEST OF YOUR MENTAL ABILITY, THE LOWER THE RISK OF ALZHEIMER'S AND QUITE A BIG DIFFERENCE. SUFFICIENT, FOR EXAMPLE, TO CHANGE THE AVERAGE AGE OF ONSET BY FIVE YEARS, JUST THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FINISHING HIGH SCHOOL AND FINISHING UNIVERSITY.

Mary says SO WHAT IS THAT... THAT WAS EARLY ON, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IN THEIR LIVES, WHAT ABOUT HOW WE SORT OF MENTALLY EXERCISE OURSELVES AS WE GO THROUGH THE YEAR, IS THAT PROTECTION AS WELL? AS WE GET OLDER, WE KEEP OUR MINDS ACTIVE AND CHESS AND NEW DANCE STEPS.

John says THERE'S NEW EVIDENCE SHOWING THAT MATTERS, USE IT OR LOSE IT, YOU HAVE TO KEEP DOING THINGS AND IF YOU ARE MORE STIMULATED, THERE'S IS THIS EVIDENCE IT WILL HELP SLOW DOWN THE WAY OF WHICH YOU ARE AFFECTED. IF YOU ARE AFFECTED, IT COULD DELAY IT.

Mary says NOW GETTING BACK AS WELL TO THE WHOLE HEALTHY AND NOT HEALTHY. YOU MAKE THE CON NENINGZ BETWEEN HEALTH AND SOCIAL ECONOMICS, RIGHT. THESE PEOPLE ARE USUALLY DOING WELL LATER ON IN LIFE, WHAT ABOUT NOW MAKING THE LINK TO ED KAING? DO THEY ALSO TEND TO BE THE MORE WELL EDUCATED?

John says YES, THEY DO. AND IN OUR SOCIETY, THE LENGTH OF LIFE YOU LEAD IS ACTUALLY RELATED TO HOW MUCH EDUCATION YOU HAVE AND IT IS KIND OF IN A STEP FAG. LIKE STAIRS, STAIR STEP. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU HAVE PRIMARY SCHOOL ONLY, YOU HAVE CONSIDERABLE SHORTER LIFE SPAN ON AVERAGE, THERE'S KPEPINGS, IT IS NOT A RULE, BUT STATISTICALLY, SECONDARY SCHOOL, YOU HAVE A HIGHER LEVEL OF LIFE EXPECTANCY, LIVE LONGER, POST SECONDARY, COMPLETED THAT EVEN LONGER LEVEL OF LIFE EXPECTANCY AND PRETTY MUCH TRUE NO MATTER WHAT INCOME YOU MAKE. THEY ARE BOTH INFLU ENS ANT BUT SOMEHOW IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

Mary says I HAVE HEARD THE ARGUMENT. TO ACHIEVE GOOD HEALTH, YOUR MONEY IS BETTER SPENT IN EDUCATION LIKE FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU PUT IN ED KAING, THAT'S WORTH MORE THAN A DOLLAR DIRECTLY INTO HEALTH CARE. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

John says I DON'T THINK IT IS A CHOICE WE HAVE. WE USUALLY PUT HEALTH CARE DOLLARS OUT ONLY WHEN WE NEED THEM, SO NOT MUCH OF A CHOICE, WHEN YOU ARE SICK YOU HAVE TO HAVE CARE. BUT FOR SOCIETY THERE IS AN ISSUE, THE ISSUE IS, WHEN WE REACH A CERTAIN POINT IN SPENDING MONEY ON HEALTH CARE AND CANADA IS PROBABLY CLOSE TO THAT POINT, AT CLOSE TO 10 PERCENT OF OUR GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT SGOING HEALTH CARE. SO 10 PERCENT OF EVERY DOLL AFTER MADE OR GAINED THROUGH GOODS AND SERVICES IN OUR SOCIETY IS SPENT ON HEALTH CARE CUFFLY RBLTION THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE YOU START TO GET VANISHING RETURNS, THE AMERICANS ARE SPENDING CLOSE TO 15 PERCENT AND THE HEALTH STATISTIC IS WORSE THAN OURS IN EVERY CAT GARY. IF WE START TO SPEND MORE THAN THAT, NOT ENOUGH MONEY LEFT FOR ED KAING, HOUSING, ASSISTING POOR ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WORKING POOR WITH CHILDREN. ALL OF THOSE ARE IMPORTANT INVESTMENT AND PROBABLY WILL GIVE US MORE BENEFIT, MORE BANG FOR THE BUCK, MORE MONEY ON HEALTH CARE OUT THERE AT THE MARGIN WHERE WE ARE AT RIGHT NOW.

Mary says LET'S JUST REMIND OUR VIEWERS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE HEALTHY AND OTHERS ARE NOT. MAKE YOU HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THIS SUBJECT AND YOU WOULD LIKE TO WEIGH IN ON THE DISKUING, GIVE US A CALL TODAY. THE NUMBER IS. AND LONG DISTANCE. AND E-MAIL QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS.

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Mary says ANN IS ON THE LINE FROM OWEN SOUND. HELLO, ANN. HI. GO AHEAD.

The caller says MY QUESTION WAS: IT WOULD SEEM THAT MY HUSBAND AND MY ELDEST CHILD ARE... MY ELDEST AND MY YOUNGEST CHILD ARE ABLE TO RESIST VIRUSES THAT MYSELF AND MY OLDEST CHILD ARE NOT.

Mary says RIGHT. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY IN THE SAME FAMILY SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO ILLNESS THAN OTHERS.

The caller says WE'RE VERY CAREFUL WITH DIET AND EXERCISE. THAT IS ME AND MY CHILDREN.

Mary says THAT A COMMON QUESTION. WHY DO SOME PEOPLE ALWAYS GET SICK AND OTHERS DON'T. WE'RE IN THE SAME FAMILY.

John says WELL, DON'T FORGET ALL OF THE CHILDREN CARRY A DIFFERENT MIX OF THE GENE OF THE PARENTS, SO NOT UNKBON FOR ONE CHILD TO, AS WE ALL KNOW, TO TAKE AFTER ONE PARENT AND ANOTHER CHILD TO TAKE AFTER ANOTHER PARENT, SOME OF THE THINGS CHILDREN TAKE AFTER THEIR PARENTS IN IS THEIR ABILITY TO FIGHT INFEKDZ, SO THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY TEST FOR THIS. USUALLY THERE ISN'T BUT ONE THING THAT SOMETIMES RELATES TO IT IT IS A TENDENCY TO HAVE ALLERGY, HAY FEVER, ASTHMA. THOSE THINGS TEND TO MAKE YOU MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO INFECTION OR THE INFEKS ARE WORSE WHEN YOU GET THEM. THAT MIGHT BE ONE EXPLANATION BUT MAY NOT BE A SIMPLE EPLA NAING. MAYBE SOMETHING IN THE GENETICS OF THE CHILD RELATED TO THE PARENTS THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

Mary says GENERALLY THOUGH, WHEN WE LOOK AT SOCIETY, WE ARE HEALTHIER, RIGHT? WE LIVE LONGER THAN 100, 200 YEARS AGO?

John says EVERY DEVELOPED COUNTRY HAS HAD INCREASES IN LIFE EXPECTANCY FOR EVERY YEAR FOR DECADES AND DECADES, AND BUT, OF COURSE, YOU CAN'T GO ON INDELVE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE STARTING TO REACH THE POINT, THE VANISHING RETURN, THAT IS, IT IS NOT SO CLEAR THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO EXPECT THAT HUMAN BEINGS WILL JUST LIVE LONGER AND LONGER ON AVERAGE.

Mary says WHY NOT?

John says BECAUSE CELLS, THE CELLS OF ALL LIVING THINGS WITH A FEW KPEPINGS IF YOU LISTEN... A GREAT PROGRAM.

Mary says IS THAT WITH WHERE YOU GET YOUR INFO?

John says A GREAT PROGRAM ON HOW CELLS REGULATE THEIR DECLINE AND THEIR DEATH AND THEY HAVE LITTLE MECHANISMS TO DO THAT. YES, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THERE ARE SOME PRIMITIVE ANIMALS ACCIDENT LITTLE WORMS IN THE SOIL THAT APPEAR TO BE ABLE TO LIVE LONGER IF WE MANIPULATE CERTAIN GENES BUT FOR BIG ANIMALS, COMPLICATED LAN MALS, WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THAT YET.

Mary says IT IS THAT ON-OFF CELL.

John says DETERMINES WHEN OUR CELLS BEGIN TO GET OLD AND DIE.

Mary says IT IS STILL FINITE. WE COULD WHAT POTENTIALLY?

John says THAT A MATTER OF GREAT DEBATE. WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET THE AVERAGE AGE DEATH UP CLOSE TO 90. THE JAPANESE ARE STILL VERY CLOSE TO THE BEST LIFE KPEX ANSY IN THE WORLD AND SITTING AROUND 83 OR 84 FOR WOMEN.

Mary says WE'RE CLOSED AREN'T WE 81.

John says 82, SOME WHERE IN THERE. THE FARTHER UP YOU GET, THE HARDER IT IS TO MOVE EVEN A WE BIT. THE REASON FOR THAT, EVEN IF YOU DO WELL AT PREVENTING WOB CAUSE OF DEATH BY PREVENTIVE MEASURES A WHOLE MUCH OF OTHER DISEASES CHASING US THE OLDER WE GET.

Mary says LET'S TALK ABOUT THE JAPANESE. WHY ARE THEY SO LONG-LIVED.

John says THEY DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DOES ANYBODY ELSE.

Mary says UP TEEN BOOKS, THEIR DIET, THEY EAT FISH AND VEGETABLES.

John says NOBODY THINKS IT IS GENETICS BUT THE LIFE EXPECTANCY WAS BELOW AVERAGE FOR THEIR INCOME LEVEL ONLY 40 YEARS AGO. SO, THEY HAVE... THE GENES HAVEN'T CHANGED.

Mary says DID GET CHANGE?

John says NOT IN A GOOD WAY. BY IF LARGE THAT THE DIETS GOT WORSE. CERTAINLY INCREASED IN FAT AND ANIMAL PROTEIN OTHER THAN FISH PROTEIN FERMENT THERE ARE A LOT THING ILL AM AM AND THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES GOTTEN SO MUCH BETTER, NOT IN THE RIGHT DREK.

Mary says WHAT ARE PLAUSIBLE THEORIES HERE?

John says THEY LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE A GREAT EFFORT MADE NOT TO HAVE TOO STEEP A DIFFERENCE, TOO BIG A DIFFERENCE IN NNING. THIS IS REFLECTED BY THE FACT THAT WAGES ARE IN THE KEPT TOO FAR APART, THE TOP TIER AND BOTTOM TIER, RESISTANCE TO HAVING HUGE DISPARITY OF INCOME IN THE SAME WORK PLACE. THAT'S THE OPPOSITE TO OUR TRENDS, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER SALARIES UP THROUGH THE ROOF AND AVERAGE PERSON SALARIES HAVE NOT. SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF DISPARITIES IN OUR SOCIETY AND THEY SEEM TO TOLERATE LESS. CULTUREALLY THEY FEEL IT IS DEVICEIVE AND REDUCES MORALE.

Mary says HOW DID THAT TRANSES LATE.

John says IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY NOT A GOOD THING AND THEREFORE FOR THEIR HEALTH TO SEE VERY DIG DIFFERENCE IN STATUS AND IN THEIR INCOME. ALL AROUND THEM. THAT ISN'T A PROVEN THING, THAT'S SUBJECT TO A LOT OF RESEARCH RJS ONE OF THE MOST ENTICING NEW PIECES OF RESEARCH, THAT HAVING A BIG GAP BETWEEN THE RICH AND THE POOR APPEARS TO RELATE OR TO BE STRONGLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE EXPECTANCY, THE LIFE EXPECT ANS OF A WHOLE US STATE OR CITY, BUT NOT IN CANADA, NOT IN AUSTRALIA AND NOT IN SWEDEN, ONLY IN THE FIVE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN STUDIED, HAVING A VERY UNEQUAL INCOME DISTRI BUG, LOTS OF DISPARITYITYS RELATES TO THE HEALTHYNESS EFER ALL, THE LIFE EXPECTANCY IN CITIES OR STATES OR PROVINCES ONLY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, ENGLAND AND IN THE UNITED STATES. NOT IN THE OTHER COUNTRIES. SO THAT MEANS WE DON'T UNDERSTAND IT VERY WELL YET.

Mary says MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE.

John says MORE RESEARCH.

Mary says ALSO, WHEN I HEAR THESE STUDIES, WHEN PEOPLE HEAR THESE STUDIES, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE WANT TO DRAW A CAUSE AND EFFECT. IT IS SUCH A DIFFICULT THING TO DO. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ASSOCIATION BETWEEN TWO THINGS WITH SO MANY FACTORS THAT INFLUNS THOSE OUTCOMESS. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY ACCOUNT FOR ALL OF THOSE KIND OF FACTORS, YOU ARE TALK BEING A WHOLE STATE AND DISPAIR SKPIT INCOME. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY.

John says IT IS USEFUL TO THINK OF EXAMPLE TAKEN QUITE A LONG TIME BUT NOW ACCEPT THAT CAUSE AND ERK EFFECT IS THROUGH. AND THE EFFECT ON HEALTH, WOULD BE A GOOD EFFECT. IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DRAW THE LINK VERY CHRERLY UNTIL 1950. IN 1950, PEOPLE FROM MY DISCIPLINE, WOING IN THE UK AND IN THE UNITED STATES, THEY STUDIED PEOPLE WHO SMOKED AND DIDN'T SMOKE AND DID AND DID NOT HAVE CERTAIN KINDS OF DISEASES THOUGHT TO BE LINKED TO SMOKING LIKE LUNG CANCER AND HEART DISEASE AND SHOWED FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT THERE WAS THIS HUGE INCREASE IN THE RISK IF YOU SMOKED AND THEY QANT FIED. 10 TIMES AS MUCH LONG CANCER IN YOU SMOKE AND 20 TIMES IF YOU SMOKE TWO PACK.

Mary says THAT TOOK A LOST STUDY AND A LONG TIME.

John says IN FACT, YOU REALLY... WE DIDN'T GET WIDE SPREAD ACCEPTANCE UNTIL MORE THAN 15 OR 20 YEARS LATER, US SURGEON GENERAL REPORT IN THE 60'S, AND THEN, WE HAD TOBACCO COMPANIES SAYING THAT THE EVIDENCE WAS NOTED VALID. UNTIL REALLY THE 90'S. THE TOBACCO PAPERS AND THE BOOKS THAT FOLLOWED IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE LAWSUIT TO GET BACK MONEY FOR THE STATES FROM TOBACCO AND THE DUMPS SAID IT WAS TA CYSTIC. NO BUT PEOPLE IN MY DISCIPLINE HAVE A BUNCH OF RULES FOR WHEN WE THINK THERE AR CAUSAL, A ACTUAL CAUSATION. AND IT EASILY MEETS THE CRITERIA.

Mary says BUT THAT'S JUST ONE. LOOK AT HOW MANY THINGS YOU ARE STUDYING. FOR INSTANCE. YOU TAKE IT STUDY WITH THE UNITED STATES AND THESE STATES AND DISPARITY OF INCOME. MORE RESEARCH... I MEAN, SO WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?

John says YOU DON'T TELL POLICY MAKERS TO GO AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT INCOME AND EQUALITY BECAUSE THEY SHOULD EXPECT DIRECT AND MEDIAN IMPACT ON THE HEALTH OF THE COUNTRY. THERE MIGHT BE OTHER REASONS FOR DOING THAT. FOR EXAMPLE, THE PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE INCOME DISTRI BUG, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE POOREST ACTUALLY ARE, ARE SUFFERING BECAUSE OF IT AND A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT WOULD BE THE CHILDREN OF POOR FAMILIES WOULD HARDLY SEEM TO BE... THEY HARDLY SEEM TO DESERVE THEIR LOT IN LIFE AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE LOOK AT, THE EXTENT TO WHICH CERTAIN COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BUFFER THE CHILDREN OF POOR FAMILIES FROM THE EFFECTS OF THE POOR. FOR EXAMPLE, BOO BY HAVING GOOD DAY CARE PROGRAM THAT SIMULATE KIDS AND WE HAVE GOOD EVIDENCE THAT SOME COUNTRIES LIKE SWEDEN, NORTHWESTERN EUROPE, LESS SO THE UK BUT THAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ABLE TO BUFFER BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE IN THEIR SCHOOL RESULTS IN GRADE, TWO, THREE OR FOUR. NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ARIINGT MI TICK OR THE READING AND SPEAKING SCORES.

Mary says WHERE AS HISTORICALLY THERE WOULD BE A DIFFERENCE.

John says IN NORTH AMERICA, THERE'S QUITE A BIG DIFFERENCE. WE CAN'T FLATTEN THE PLAYING FIELD, CAN'T MAKE IT EVEN THE CHANCES IN LIFE, WITH OUR SYSTEM, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPORTS IN PLACE THAT HELP KIDS GET A HEAD START, YOU KNOW, REPEAT HEADLY CALLED FOR AN INVESTMENT IN PROVIDING STIMULATING ENVIRONMENTS SO EVERYBODY'S BRAIN GETS A CHANCE TO BE WIRED IN A RICH AND PRODUCTIVE WAY THAT WILL LAST THEM THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFE, BUT, THE INVESTMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN FORTH COMING, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ENOUGH POLITICAL WILL TO SPEND THE MONEY AND HAVE A NETWORK RECOMMENDED IN THE MUSTARD.

Mary says AND THE INVESTMENTS TAKE MORE THAN FIVE YEARS.

John says THEY TAKE A LANGUAGE TIME AND POL TIINGS DON'T LAST A LANGUAGE TIME, SO TOUGH TO INVEST IN SOMETHING 20 YEARS FROM NOW.

Mary says SO SWEDEN HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR AWHILE.

John says A LONG TIME.

Mary says LONG TIME AND CONSISTENTLY SEEN THE RESULTS?

John says DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PEOPLE FROM RICH AND POOR BACK GOUND WHS THEY LOOK THROUGH HEALTH STAT US AND CHILDREN, EDUCATIONAL STATUS, HOW MUCH THEY HAVE ACCOMPLISHED ON TEST IS NOT VERY DIFFERENT.

Mary says IF THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IT A LONG TIME. DID THOSE RESULTS CARRY ON THROUGH THEIR SCHOOL YEARS DID THOSE POOR CHILDREN, END UP STICKING THROUGH SCHOOLS, GRADUATING AND GETTING GOOD JOBS AND HEALTH WAS BETTER.

John says WE KNOW ALL THE WAY THROUGH LIFE, THEIR HEALTH STATISTIC A VERY SMALL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RICH AND POOR COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRY, COMPARED TO THE UNITED KING DIAGRAM OR UNITED STATES, WITH BIG, BIG DIFFERENCES ALL THROUGH LIFE IS IT N A POOR CHILD AND RICH CHILD, THE DIFFERENCES TEND TO BE PLAYED OUT IN THEIR HEALTH THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE LIFE.

Mary says DOES THAT MEAN LESS OF A BURDEN ON THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

John says WELL, EXACTLY. ED MESSAGE WOULD BE THAT IF WE COULD SPEND MORE ON CHILDREN FROM DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUNDS AND GIVING THEM A STIMULATING ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THEY COULD SPEND TIME BEFORE AND AFTER SCHOOL, WE HAVE GOOD STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT CHANGES HOW WELL THEY DO AND HOW LONG THEY STAY IN SCHOOL AND HOW SUCCESSFUL THEY ARE AS CITIZENS.

Mary says LET'S TAKE CALLS HERE. SMIK ON THE LINE FROM SKRAR BRO. HI. GO AHEAD.

The caller says I HAVE A QUESTION. I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS IDEA OF LONGEVITY FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND THE, THE BARRING ANY REAL DANGEROUS LIVING OR STRESSFUL LIVING IT SEEMS ALMOST THE QUESTION DEPENDS ON... ON GENETICS AND I AM JUST WONDERING WHY THERE SMNT MORE RESEARCH BEING DONE IN GENETICS TOWARDS LONGEVITY, IF WE ARE INTERESTED IN THAT. FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU LOOK AT POP LAYING OF THE PLANET AS IT STANDS, REALLY LOOKING INTO LONGEVITY IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THAT USEFUL OF AN ENDEAVOR, WE ARE RYING TO MINIMIZE POPULATION.

Mary says LET ME JUST INTERRUPT YOU. I JOHN TO RESPOND, HE BELIEVES JE JETICS, AND MIKE, THERE ARE...

John says THE CUP IS PARTLY FULL IN TERMS OF JE NET IBS AND THE PART THAT'S FULL IS THAT IF YOU STUDY WHAT DETERMINES PEOPLE LIVING, SAY, TO 90, AS OPPOSED TO 80 OR CERTAINLY TO 100 AS OPPOSED TO 80 ON AVERAGE, YOU WILL FIND A HUGE RULE FOR GENETICS, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. IF YOU STUDY WHAT ARE THE FACTORS THAT DETERMINE GETTING THE MAIN DISEASES THAT KILL US, WHICH ARE HEART DISEASE, STROKE, CANCER, RES STORY DISEASE, DIABETES, IF YOU STUDY THOSE THINGS, YOU WILL FIND THAT THE MAIN DETERMINANTS ARE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCES AND PRACTICES, SOMETIMES WE CALL THESE LIFESTYLE THINGS BUT ROOTED AND ALSO OUR CHILD HOOT AND WHAT KIND OF HABITS WE HAVE BY THE TIME WE'RE TEENAGERS. SO YOU CAN SEE, THEREFORE, THAT... AND ALSO DOESN'T REALLY EXPLAIN MOST OF THE MAIN ILLNESSES THAT WE FALL PRAY TO.

Mary says BUT THEN ISN'T SCIENCE ACTUALLY LOOKING MORE TOWARD JE NET IBS FOR THE ANSWERS TO THESE DISEASES?

John says WELL, JUST EXACTLY IN THE SAME WAY I EXPLAIN THE DISEASES THAT ARE COMMON ACCIDENT ALMOST ALL OF US WILL GET ONE OR TWO OF BEFORE WE DIE, THOSE DISEASES WE KNOW YOUR CHANCE OF GETTING THEM IS A FUNCTION OF BOTH YOUR GENETICS AND WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU.

Mary says RIGHT.

John says IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT CHOICES, BUT IF YOU ARE A PERSON WHO HAS HAD A VERY ROUGH CHILDHOOD, MUCH MORE LAKELY TO SMOKE, BE DEPRESSED, MUCH LIKELY TO UNABLE TO CONTROL YOUR FOOD INTAKE, NOT JUST ABOUT CHOICE BUT A LOT THAT COMES FROM YOUR EARLY LIFE. OTHERWISE WE WOULDN'T HAVE SMOKING HABITS ENTIRELY SET BY AGE 17, 18, 19, THE WAY IT IS SET. SO, WHEN YOU TAKE A STEP BACK AND YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE THING, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT DETERMINES OUR LENGTH OF LIFE OR QUALITY OF LIFE OR OUR HEALTH BY GENETICS, IT WILL BE... IT WOULD REQUIRE INFORMATION ABOUT BOTHER THE GENETICS OF THE INDIVIDUAL AND ALL OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN TO THEM THROUGH THEIR LIFE.

Mary says SO HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT ALL OF THE MONEY BEING PUT INTO GENETIC RESEARCH?

John says WE HAVEN'T THE CHOICE OF JUST STANDING STILL ON THAT. WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHICH GENES ARE IMPORTANT FOR CONFERRING RISK AND WE NEED TO KNOW WHICH GENES ARE PARTICULARLY RIFBY IF WE LIVE CERTAIN WAYS. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME PEOPLE WHO END UP SMOKING WILL NOT GET SMOKING RELATED DISEASES. AND SOME...

Mary says GEORGE BURNS?

John says GEORGE BURNS DIDN'T GET A SMOKING RELATED...

Mary says HE SMOKED AND DRAFERN?

John says A LOT WE BELIEVE IS GENETIC. BUT ON BALANCE IS IT BETTER TO SMOKE OR NOT TO SMOKE? IT IS BETTER NOT TO SMOKE. FIRST OF ALL, WE CAN'T IDENTIFY THE GENES, ALL OF THEM. WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO TEST FOR THEM. SECONDLY, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE GENES, SMOKING WILL STILL CAUSE NEGATIVE EFFECTS IN A LARGE FRACTION OF PEOPLE. SO, IT IS A BIT OF BOTH. IT IS... WITHOUT KNOWING A BIT, ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE EXPERIENCES OVER A LIFETIME AND WE WON'T BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

Mary says THESE ARE FOR CERTAIN DISEASES, WE KNOW SOME DISEASES ARE LARGELY INFLUPSED BY GENETICS.

John says ONLY ON COMMON DISEASES, DISEASES THAT WE SCREEN FOR AT BIRTH, A DISEASE CALLED PKU THAT WE SCREEN FOR, ALL NEW BORNS IS A VERY IMPORTANT DISEASE TO DETECT BECAUSE BY JUST CHANGING THE CHILD DIET, WE CAN PREVENT MENTAL RETARDATION AND SCREENED FOR AND DETECTED, IT IS ONE IN 5 OR 10,000 BIRTHS OR LESS, WE FIND IT AND WE SAVE THAT KID FROM A TERRIBLE FATE, BUT DID YOU HEAR HOW RARE IT WAS?

Mary says YEAH.

John says SAME THING, AND YOU HAVE TO GET TO A VERY UNUSUAL SITUATION BEFORE A COM PLEATLY GENETIC DISEASE IS VERY COMMON. SO I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. IN MOST OF... SICKLE CELL IS REASONABLY COMMON. IT IS A DISORDER WHERE YOU HAVE ATTACKS OF YOUR BLOOD COAGULATING ALMOST IN YOUR VEIN AND ARTERY BECAUSE THE CELL UNDER STRESS TAKES THE WRONG SHAPE, THE RED BLOOD CELLS AND GENETIC, GENETIC DISEASE BUT HIGHLY VARABLE, NOT EVERYBODY GETS EQUALLY SEVERE ATTACK AND COMMON IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD FOR A REASON, AND THAT IS THAT THE CARRY YERS ARE PROTECT FRIDAY MALARIA. MALARIA PARASITES CAN'T EAT THOSE CELLS AS ORDINARY RED BLOOD CELLS.

Mary says WHICH IS THE WORST TO HAVE.

John says MALARIA KILLS ONE BABY IN 10 IN COASTAL WEST AFRICA, IN EAST AFRICA. SO THOSE THAT SURVIVE, YOU KNOW, HAVE SOME IMMUNITY. BUT MALARIA IS A TERRIBLE SKURJ AND CAUSES LIFELONG RECURRENT ILLNESS. I USED TO LIVE IN EAST AFRICA. MOTHER NATURE HAS CREATED A BALANCE AND THE BALANCE IS ONE THAT WORKS FOR THE SPECIES AS A WHOLE, BUT SOME PEOPLE PAY THE PRICE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TWO GENES FOR SICKLE CELL AND A SHORT AND TERRIBLE LIFE. ALTHOUGH OUR TREATMENTS ARE IMPROVING, THEY'RE NOT AVAILABLE TO MOFERT PEOPLE IN AFRICA.

Mary says NOW YOU, DOES THAT NOT WORRY YOU THAT SOMETHING MAY APPEAR TO BE BAD REALLY ISN'T BAD IN THE LONG RUN? RIGHT? ONCE WE START GOING IN AND MED ELING WITH THINGS...

John says IN FACT, THINGS THAT CAN BE VERY BAD FOR READ INDIVIDUALS IN THIS CASE HAVE A SMALL NUMBER OF THEM WITH THIS JET NETIC ISSUE GOOD FOR THE SPECIES FOR MANKIND IN THAT HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM THERE. IF GU IN AND YOU MESS WITH A MALARIA, FOR EXAMPLE, BY, FOR EXAMPLE, BY SPRAYING LARGE AREAS WITH INSECTICIDES TO CONTROL THE MOSQUITO VEKTOR OF MALARIA, THERE WILL BE A PROBLEM IF YOU STOP IT AND THE PROBLEM WILL BE THAT BEFORE YOU SPRAYED, THE POPULATION THAT CONTINUED TO LIFE AFTER INFANCY, THEY ARE PARTLY IMMUNE. IF THEY STOP GETTING MALARIA FOR FIVE OR 10 YEARS THEN THEY BECOME DEPENDENT BECAUSE THEY ARE NO LONGER SEMIIMMUNE AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY CAUSE MORE HARM IF YOU GO AND CHANGE THE SITUATION BUT DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO KEEP IT UP. IF YOU GO IN THERE AND MAKE CHANGES AND YOU HAVE TO PULL OUT, YOU MAY HAVE CAUSED MORE HARM THAN GOOD. MOST THINGS ARE IN THAT BALANCE AND BEFORE YOU BESS WITH THE SENTENCE.

Mary says WITH GOING BACK TO THE JAPANESE, RIGHT, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU MOVE POP LAYINGS OF PEOPLE LIKE THE JAPANESE OUT OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT. RIGHT. THEN YOU SEE WHAT TACTOR DOES GENES REALLY PLAY?

John says YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY READ SOME FAIR FAMOUS STUDIES OF WHEL GROUPS OF AND WITH VERY DIFFERENT LEFERLS OR RISKS OF THE SAME DISEASES LIKE THE CANCERS OR HEART DISEASE. WHAT WE KNOW HAVE OF THE BEST IN JAPANESE THAT MIGRATED FROM JAPAN, STOPPED SOME OF THEM AND STAYED FOR A LANGUAGE TIME IN HONOLULU AND THE HAWAII ISLANDS, SOME WENT ON AND LIVED IN THE WEST COAST LARGELY OF NORTH AMERICA. A VERY FAMOUS SERIES OF STUDIES, THEY CAN'T MARRYING WITHIN THEIR OWN PEOPLE SO QUESTION OF GENETICS CHANGING. BUT AS THEY MOVED, THE LEVELS OF MOST CANCERS OF HEART DISEASE AND OTHER COMMON ILLNESS LIKE DIABETES, MOVED STEADLY TOWARDS THE LEVELS OF THE NEW SOCIETY WITHIN ONE TO TWO GEN RAINGDZS.

Mary says ISN'T THAT FAST.

John says WHAT DOES IT TELL UTS. THE JEENTS DIDN'T CHANGE AT ALL. IT WAS THEIR IRMENT. EVERYTHING FROM THE AMOUNT OF BREAST FEEDING TO THE KINDS OF FOOD THEY OUGHT. AND THE LEVELS OF EXERCISE KP CULTURE. ALL CRITICALLY MANT HOW MUCH CANSY, HEART SDEERZ, THERE ARE.

Mary says DOES IT WORK THE OTHER WAY, IF WE MOVE TO JAPAN, WILL WE GET LESS OF THOSE THINGS IF WE LIVE THERE FOR AWHILE.

John says IT DEPEND OS THE DISEASE, SOMETIMES YOU CARRY WITH YOU THE RISK SET EARLY IN LIFE AND THEN OTHER DISEASES, YOU CAN CONTINUE TO REDUCE YOUR RISK BY MOVING LATER IN LIFE. BUT IN SOME DISEASES, MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS APPEARS TO BE SET EARLY.

Mary says SO FOR THE DISEASES WHERE IT IS NOT SET EARLY, IS THAT VERY HOPEFUL THOUGH, IF YOU I MEAN IT IS NOT DEFTENED IS IT? THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE CAN CHANGE.

John says WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INDIVIDUALS, GREAT DEAL OF THE RISK IS VE VERSE IBL. AND AND YOU CAN ALMOST REVERSE THE STAGE JUST BEFORE DOOIBS. YOUR SUGAR IS OUT OF WHITE. NOT FLU BLOWN DIABETIC, ALMOST COMPLETELY REVERSE IT BY A COM COM BINAING OF DIET AND EXERCISE.

Mary says NO DAMAGE DONE?

John says NOT IF YOU CATCH IT BEFORE FULL-BLOWN DIABETES. YOU DON'T EVEN NEED DRUG TREATMENT BUT, OF COURSE YOU NEED TO BE COMMITTED TO CHANGING YOUR LIFE. YOU NEED TO MASSIVELY CHANGE WHAT YOU EAT AND HOW MUCH YOU EXERCISE. AND SINCE A LARGE FRACTION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST PREDIABETES, TALKING ABOUT ADULTS BUT NOT CHILDHOOD, THE KIND THAT OLDER PEOPLE GET, MANY ARE SOMEWHAT OVERWEIGHT, THE FIRST THING THEY HAVE TO DO IS GET THE WEIGHT OFF IN A HEALTHY SUSTAINABLE WAY. IT IS POSSIBLE, THE BAD NEWS IS YOU HAVE TO BE PRETTY COMMITED AND IN MY EXPERIENCE AND IN 23 YEARS OF FAMILY MEDICINE ON AND OFF THE ONLY TIME COMMITTED THEY GET SCARED. THEY CAN BE IF THE DOCTOR SPEAKS TO THEM AND OPEN AND THE RISKS, IT AN OPPORTUNITY, IT'S A WINDOW.

Mary says AND YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE.

John says MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN NORTH AMERICA ARE PREDIABETIC, MILLIONS EVER PEOPLE.

Mary says JUST THROUGH DIET AND EXERCISE ALONE THEY CAN CHANGE THAT?

John says ABSOLUTELY.

Mary says WE HAVE AN AERX MAIL.

Text on screen reads "More people in the workforce sit at desk jobs, rather than perform physical labour. So this creates a larger group of people who need to find the time to exercise rather than having it part of their job. Also, life is more rushed. We don't have time to make, enjoy or properly digest healthy meals. Would these factors be a major problem to the health of the population?"

John says I THINK SO SOCHLT THE BEST MARKER OF THAT IS THAT, WE NOW HAVE ONE HALF OF ALL ADULTS IN CANADA OVER WEIGHT AND ONE THIRD OF CHILDREN AND WE KNOW THAT THIS IS... AS ALMOST DOUBLED IN ABOUT 20 TO 25 YEARS. AND THAT, THAT THESE FACTORS THAT THE, THAT THE WRITER HAS MENTIONED, HAVE, HAVE REALLY TAKEN HOLD IN OUR SOCIETY, IT IS EASY TO SEE HOW MOST PEOPLE FIND IT DIFFICULT TO EXERCISE AND MOST PEOPLE FIND IT DIFFICULT TO PREPARE AND EAT HEALTHY FOODS, ON THE OTHER HAND, LOOK AT ALTERNATIVE WE FACE. ONE IN THREE OF ALL OF US WILL BE DIABETIC BEFORE WE DIE AT CURRENT RATES. ONE IN THREE. SO, THAT'S NOT MUCH OF A CHOICE. AND IT REALLY, WE'RE REALLY ON THE EDGE OF A CLIFF FWE DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AND THAT MEANS NOT JUST VOICE BUT CHANGING OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE SO THERE'S MORE OPPORTUNITIES CLOSE TO THEIR WORK PLACE, NOT EXPENSIVE OPPORTUNITYS TO EXERCISE, YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T MUCH SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF MONEY THAT SAY THEY CAN'T EXERCISE. THEY CAN AFFORD TO THE G TO THE BEST GYMS OR BEST POOLS, BUT, WE DON'T MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN A PUBLIC HOUSING UNIT WHERE THERE MAY BE A SECURITY PROBLEM AND MAY NOT BE SAFE TO RUN ON THE STREET OR EVEN WALK ON THE STREET, WE DON'T MAKE IT EASY FOR EVERYBODY KPO EXERCISE AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE HAVE TO CHANGE, WE ALSO HAVE TO CHANGE WHAT HAPPENS TO CHILDREN, WE HAVE REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF PHYS ED TO THE POINT WHERE IT IS REALLY AN OPTION BY GRADE 10 IN MANY HIGH SCHOOLS IN ONTARIO.

Mary says KIDS COME HOME, THEY'RE NOT GOING OUT. IT IS DANGEROUS TO GO OUT AND PLAY.

John says AND ALSO THE COMPUTER AND THE TV AND THEY HAVE THEIR FRIENDS ON THE PHONE. WE HAVE TO MAKE IT EASY AND WE HAVE TO MAKE IT FAIR, FAIRLY ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE DEPEND OF ITEM AND MAKE THE CULTURE, FIBD IT FUN, IT HAS TO BE FUN TO DO EXERCISE, I THAT WILL REQUIRE LOCAL COMMUNITYS TO GET PROGRAMS IN PLACE THAT ARE FUN FOR KIDS, IT CAN'T JUST BE TEAM SPORTS, NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TEAM SPORTS.

Mary says YOU KNOW GOING BACK, I REMEMBER ONE EXPERT WAS SAYING THAT NO SOCIETY HAS EVER BEEN THIS LARGE, RIGHT FERMENT THIS HEAVY, EVER IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN KIND SNOOFERMENT AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL. I REMEMBER HIM SAYING NEXT GENERATION MAY BE THE FIRST THAT IS NOT AS LONG LIVED. IS THAT REASONABLE?

John says THE EPIDEMIC OF OBESE SKPIT OVERWEIGHT, OBESITY IS THE MORE EXTREME VERSION, THE EPIDEMIC ONLY 15 TO 20 YEARS OLD AM YOU WE KNOW THAT? WE HAD SURVEY DATA GOING BACK THAT FAR AND THAT'S NOT TIME FUF FOR IT TO RESULT IN INCREASED DEATH RIGHTS AND THIS CONTINUE TO SHOW US INCREASED RATE OF HEART DISEASE AND OTHER CONDITIONS THAT FOLLOW FROM THAT. AND SO, WE ARE JUST BEGINNING TO COME THROUGH THE FIRST PERIOD AND WE'RE JUST STARTING TO SEE THE EFFECTS OF ACTUAL HEART, KIDNEY BRAIN ACCIDENT ALL OF THESE DISEASES THAT COME LATER AFTER YOU HAVE OVERATE, HEAVY AND UNFIT PEOPLE. WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT EPIDEMIC TAKE OFF NOW BECAUSE IT IS REALLY, IT WOULD BE A MIRACLE TO GET THE HALF OF OUR ADULT POPULATION AND THE THIRD OF OUR CHILD POP LAYING WHO ARE ROEFER WEIGHT TO GET THEM QUICKLY INTO SHAPE. BUT, YOU KNOW, I AM NOT A PESSIMIST. LET'S HOPE WE CAN DO SOMETHING. WU IN THE INTERIM, AN EPIDEMIC OF EARLY DEATH FROM DIABETIC COMP KAING, HEART DISEASE, KIDNEY DISEASE, STROKE. AND THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO HEAD OFF. THE EFFECT, WE MAY SEE A FAILURE TO INCAREER THE SOCIETY AND SEE A DECLINE IN LIFE EXPECTANCY.

Mary says I GUESS JUST PURE ED KAINGD, I MEAN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS. PEOPLE READ THINGS, HEAR ABOUT TRANCE FATS, MY GOODNESS, LET'S READ LABELS, THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DOING IT. IT IS NOT ENOUGH.

John says IT HELPFUL, BUT, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T EXPECT ANYONE TO BE GOOD AT READING LABELS, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE TRIED TOED ARE THE LABELS COMING OUT NOW, YOU NEED A LOT OF ED KAING TO READ THOSE LABELS AND I DON'T THINK THAT IS FAIR. I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A MORE TRANSPARENT SYSTEM OF LABELING FOODS AS BEING, YOU KNOW, WE COULD MAYBE HAVE THREE. GREET FOR GREAT, ORANGE FOR BE CAREFUL DON'T EAT TOO MUCH AND RED LIGHT. MANUFACTURERS DON'T PROBABLY BONT WANT THEM WITH RED LIGHT STICKER ON IT. I AM NOT SURE WE ARE DOING THE JOB AS A SOCIETY, I LOT LOT OF THEED.S PIE 14 YAER OLD OR 13 YEAR GOING IN TO BUY A SNACK AFTER SCHOOL, ARE THEY OF LEGAL AGE OF CONSENT? ARE THEY REALLY RATIONAL THINKING ADULT WHO IS MAKING A BALANCED DECISION.

Mary says YOU HAVE TEENS.

John says I HAVE THREE TEENS, I DON'T THINK WE ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, AND PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING WHEN THEY EAT A FOOD, WHAT KIND OF LIGHT IS THAT, RED, GREEN OR ORANGE. WE'LL ALL EAT ORANGE, MIGHT EVEN RED LIGHT FOODS FROM TIME TO TIME.

Mary says YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE GLYCEMIC INDEX.

John says AMOUNT OF SALT, A BIG STORY ABOUT SALT ALMOST EVERYBODY EXCEPT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD MEDICAL DIRECTIONS TO LIMIT THEIR SALT, EVERYBODY'S OVER THE SALT LIMIT. THE RECOMMENDED LIMIT. AND THE PRICE WE PAY, PEOPLE WHO ARE GENETICALLY SENSITIVE GET HYPERTENSION AND CONSEQUENTLY HEART DISEASE AND STROKE AND OTHER PROBLEMS. SO IT IS A QUESTION OF, SINCE WE CAN'T TEST FOR THAT. WE CAN'T TELL YOU WHO IS GENETICALLY SUSCEPT IBL, JUST WAIT TO GET THE PROBLEMS OR TAKE ACTION ON SACHLT CABLE THE FOOD IN A SIMPLE WAY. THESE PRETZELS HAVE A RED LIGHT, MUST BE A PROBLEM THERE. I AM NOT GOING TO EAT TOO MANY OF THESE.

Mary says BUT THE CHALLENGES ARE HUGE WITH MANUFACTURING.

John says BIG CHALLENGES.

Mary says OKAY. UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME AGAIN. BUT YOU WILL HAVE TO COME BACK AND WE'LL CONTINUE IT ONE MORE TIME. THANKS FOR COMING IN. DIRECTOR UPON POF LAINGZ AND PUBLIC HEALTH AT THE CANADIAN INSTITUTES FOR HEALTH RESEARCH KP HE'S ALWAYS A LECTUREURE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO MINI MED SCHOOL, FOR MORE INFORMATION OR TO APPLY FOR THE SPRING SESSION, YOU CAN GO ON LINE...

A slate reads "University of Toronto's Mini-Med School, www.mini-med.utoronto.ca, 1-888-512-8173."

It changes to "General Health Education, healthyontario.com."

Mary says AND EARLIER THIS SEASON, I INTERVIEWED ANTIRACISM EDUCATION KATEOR KAREN MOCK, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN RACE RELAYINGS FOUNDATION. KAREN IS ALSO ONE OF THE COUNTRY FOREMOST AUTHORITIES ON HATE CRIMES. AND THIS IS HER STORY.

A clip plays in which Mary and Karen talk.
Karen is in her late fifties, with short chestnut hair. She's wearing a gray blazer and a lavender turtleneck.

Mary says WELCOME, THANKS FOR COMING IN TODAY, YOU HAVE WORN SO MANY HAT DURING YOUR CAREER. I UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A COMMON GROUND THAT ALL OF THESE PATHS HAVE TAKEN. HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU DO?

The caption changes to "Karen Mock. Canadian Race Relations Foundation."

Karen says IT IS INTERESTING, WHEN I FILL OUT FORMS THAT ASK FOR OK PAING, DO I PUT PSYCHOLOGIST, EDUCATOR, I DON'T WANT TO PUT ADMINISTRATOR. AND SO...

Mary says EVEN HATE HUNTER.

Karen says ONE OF MY NICKNAMES THAT THE PRESS GAVE ME. I HAVE COME TO REALIZE THAT I WRITE DOWN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST.

Mary says ALSO, YOU STARTED AS A TEACHER, RIGHT?

Karen says YES.

Mary says YOU ARE STILL TEACHING REALLY, THAT I SAID IN MY INTRODUCTION.

Karen says MY FIELD WAS TEACHER ED KAING PRIMARILY. I DID TEACH YOUNG CHILDREN FOR A BIT AND THEN WITH MY DEGREE IN EDUCATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY, SPENT MANY YEARS TEACHING EDUCATORS IN THE FACULTIES OF EDUCATION.

Mary says HOW WAS IT THAT YOU BECAME A HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE?

In a picture Karen poses with six young men and women.

Karen says I BELIEVE THOSE SEEDS WERE PLANTED WHEN I WAS VERY, VERY YOUNG. AND IN MY COMMUNITY, I AM JEWISH BY BACKGROUND, PART OF OUR CULTURE DICTATES TO MANDATES WITH A TREMENDOUS INFLUENCE ON MY LIFE. LOOK AFTER ONE ANOTHER. AND TO, HEAL THE WORLD, AND EVEN THROUGH MY YOUTH GROUP ACTIVITY SKM HIGH SCHOOL LIFE DWRO GROWING UP IN THE 50 SKPAE THE 60'S WITH THE INFLUENCE OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THE HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT HAD A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON ME.

Mary says NOW YOU GREW UP ON MARKHAM STREET IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO.

Karen says THAT'S RIGHT. WAS THERE A LOT OF RACISM IN THAT TIME IN THE AREA YOU GREW UP IN. CERTAINLY, WE DIDN'T FEEL IT. IN THOSE DAYS GOING TO KING EDWARD SCHOOL AND HARVARD COLLEGEATE. PEOPLE IN THE MULTI CULTURAL COMMUNITY LIVED AND WORKED TOGETHER. WE DIDN'T REALIZE THOSE OF US IN MINORITY GROUPS THAT THERE WAS THIS REAL PUSH TOWARDS ASSIMILATION AND, YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND AS CHILDREN GROWING UP WHEN WE WERE CLOSE TO EACH OTHER AND BLACKS AND JEWS AND PEOPLE OF ALL DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS LIVING AND WORKING TOGETHER. AND IN THE SAME COMMUNITY, WE DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM WAS ONLY PUSHING ONE SET OF HOLIDAYS AND MAKING SOME PEOPLE, I BELIEVE, SCRAP FOR INSURING THAT THEIR IDENTITY WAS REALLY VALIDATED, THAT WE HAD TO GET AT HOME AND FROM EACH OTHER. I REMEMBER FINDING A NEWS LETTER RECENTLY WHEN I WAS CLEANING OUT THE BASEMENT THAT I WROTE FOR OUR YOUTH GROUP WHEN I WAS 15 AND INVOLVED WITH THE SOCIAL ACTION COMMITTEE OF THE YOUTH. AND RIGHTING ABOUT HOW, IT IS A STHAUL WORLD AND IF WE DON'T LOOK AFTER OTHERS WHO ARE, WHO ARE IN POVERTY SWAINGS AND WE DON'T COUNTER RACISM, THEN WHO ARE WE, WE CREATE OUR OWN SMALL WORLD WITH, WITH TUNNEL VISION.

Mary says YOU WERE 15 WHEN YOU WROTE THAT.

Karen says I WAS 15. IT DID START YOUNG.

Mary says DID IT START YOUNGER, DID IT START AT HOME, I HAVE READ YOUR GRANDFATHER WAS A BIG INFLUENCE IN YOUR LIFE AS WELL.

Karen says I GREW UP IN MY GRANDFATHER'S HOME, JUST AFTER THE WAR, MY PARENTS HAD THE COUPLE OF ROOMS ON THE SECOND FLOOR. MY DAD HAD JUST COME BACK FROM THE WAR. AND...

A picture shows Karen in her youth with a beehive hairdo posing next to an elderly man in a suit.

Mary says OH, WHAT A GREAT SHOT. THAT'S A SHOT OF YOUR GRANDFATHER AND YOU.

Karen says YES, THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S MY GRANDFATHER AT OUR HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATION. AND HE GAVE ME THAT SENSE OF HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS TO, TO UNDERSTAND YOUR ROOTS, HE WOULD CONSTANTLY TELL ME STORIES OF, OF HIS MOTHER, MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER FOR WHOM I WAS NAMED, YOU KNOW, WHO, WHO HAD TO BE SEVERAL SUFFICIENT IN POLAND AND, EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A PATRIARCHAL KIND OF A, AN ATMOSPHERE, YOU COULD SAY, THERE WAS ALWAYS THAT NOTION. I DIDN'T REALIZE THE IMPACT OF IT UNTIL LATER IN LIFE, THAT I COULD AND SHOULD GROW UP TO BE WHATEVER I WANTED TO BE AND THAT A WOMAN CAN AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT AS WELL. SO THERE WAS REALLY...

Mary says THAT'S PRETTY NEAT. QUITE A FEMINIST OUTLOOK, DIDN'T HE?

Karen says I DON'T THINK HE KNEW IT.

Mary says AND THEN AND THE GRADUATION FROM...

Karen says THE GRADE WAINGZ FROM GRADE 13.

Mary says I WAS GETTING MIXED UP. AT THE PROM THAT YOU MET YOUR HUSBAND, WASN'T IT?

A black and white picture shows Karen at a similar age, posing with a young man in a black suit.

Karen says WE WERE AT SCHOOL TOGETHER. I WAS ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES THAT MARRIED MY BEST FRIEND AND WHEN DAVID AND I DIDN'T HAVE DATES LINED UP FOR THE PROM, I SAID TO HE HIM SO THE PROM IS IN THREE WEEKS, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO ASK ME? HE ALMOST CHOKED ON HIS LUNCH. AND THE REST WAS HISTORY. WE WENT TO THE PROM TOGETHER AND HE REALIZED I WASN'T JUST ONE OF THE GUYS AND 36 YEARS LATER... WELL, NO 40 YEARS LATER BECAUSE WE WERE MARRYED IN SKEFERN AND 36 YEARS LATER, HERE WE ARE.

In a recent colour picture Karen and a bearded man hold up a cake with an illegible inscription on it.

Mary says IS THIS FOT EE... IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE CELEBRATING SOME OKAING.

Karen says THAT'S OUR 36TH WEDDING ANNIVERSARY.

Mary says AND DAVID IS ALSO A... WELL A DOCTOR OF ANOTHER KIND.

Karen says HE'S THE DEAN OF THE FACULTY AT DENTISTRY OF UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

Mary says TELL ME, WHAT WITH... WITH THE FOUNDATION ACCIDENT I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN WITH HIM. TWO YEARS FOR THE CANADIAN RACE RELATION FOUNDATION. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

Karen says THE CANADIAN RACE RELATION FOUND EGG WAS FOUNDED AS PART OF THE NATIONAL JAPANESE REDRESS AGREEMENT. WHEN NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF JAPANESE CANADIANS WAS NEGOTIATING WITH THE GOVERNMENT FOR REDRESS, THE GOVERNMENT DEMANDED HARD DATA, RESEARCH IN OTHER WORDS TO PROVE THE ECONOMIC CASE, BUT WOULDN'T FUND THEM TO PROVE THAT CASE, IT WAS A PRIVATE COMPANY, PRICE WATERHOUSE THAT CAME TO THEIR AID, DID THE RESEARCH BUT WHEN ART MCGEE AND THE ASSOCIATION WERE NEGOTIATING THE AGREEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE JAPANESE COMMUNITY, THEY BUILT IN TO THE AGREEMENT. THE CREATION OF INDEPENDENT ARM'S LENGTHHUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. SO THAT, NEVER GEN WOULD THAT HAPPEN. NEVER AGAIN ON TWO COUNTS. NEVER AGAIN WOULD THE COMMUNITIES THAT NEEDED RESEARCH SUPPORT TO IMPACT POLICY BE OUT ON THEIR OWN AND NOT BE ABLE TO FIND SUPPORT BUT ALSO, ALSO THERE WOULD BE A WATCH DOG KIND OF AN ORGANIZATION. SO THAT NEVER AGAIN COULD HUMAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS BE SO GROCERY VIOLATED AS THEY WERE.

Mary says SO HOW DO YOU... HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT?

Karen says WELL, WE WORK VERY COOPERATE TIFLY, WITH NONGOVERNMENT ORGANIZES. WE ARE... OUR ROLE IS TO FACILITATE THE NATIONAL STRUING WILL OR THE NATIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR THE FIGHT AGAINST RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY, OUR MANDATE INCLUDES DOCUMENTS THE HISTORY OF THE RACISM. EXPOSING ITS CURRENT MANIFEST NAEINGS, NOT ACCIDENT AFRAID TO SPEAK OUT, TAKE ON SOME OF THE TOUGH ISSUES, OBVIOUSLY, WE HAVE TO WORK IN PARTNERSHIP, AND WE WORK IN PARTNERSHIP WITH GOVERNMENTS, EVEN WITH POLICE WHERE WE DO A LOT OF TRAINING, CERTAINLY WITH SCHOOL SYSTEMS. IN IS... IT IS A STRUGGLE. THE ORGANIZE IS FAIRLY NEW, THE ACT WAS PASSED IN 1990 BUT IT WAS NOT PROCLAIMED UNTIL 96 AND THEY DIDN'T OPEN THEIR DOORS UNTIL NEFERN. AND SO, TO BECOME KNOWN TO HELP EMPOWER GROUPS TO INKROOES THEIR ACCESS TO BE MONITORING THE MEDIA, TO BE MONITORING ISSUES, TO BE CREATING THAT NETWORK, A VERY IMPORTANT INITIATIVE THAT WE THINK WILL REALLY HELP AND WE HAVE BEEN ASKED TO WORK ON, BY THE YOUNG PEOPLE THEMSELVES IS THE CREATION OF A NATIONAL ANTIRACISM YOUTH NETWORK.

Mary says I SEE. YOU TALK ABOUT TACKLING THE TOUGH ISSUES, WHAT ARE THE TOUGHEST ISSUES THAT WE FACE TODAY REGARDING RACISM IN CANADA?

Karen says I THINK IF I COULD SAY GENERICALLY, THE TOUGHEST ISSUE IS THE DENIAL THAT THERE IS RACISM. OR THAT THAT IS A PROBLEM OF THE, OF THE MINORITIES THEMS. CANED... IF WE DIDN'T HEAR THIS KIND OF RHETORIC. OH, WELL, WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM HERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT SO MANY MINORITIES MAY SAY SOMEONE IN A SMALLER COMMUNITY. AS IF, AS IF THE RACISM IS THE VICTIMS. FAULT, WHEN IT IS EXPOSED AND SYSTEMIC IN A SCHOOL SYSTEM OR INCIDENTS OF RACIAL PROFILING. AND IN THE POLICE OR SECURITY AGENCIES OR AS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON RECENTLY WITH THE ZERO TOL LANCE POLICIES AND SCHOOLS, PEOPLE FEAR OR PEOPLE INTERPRET THAT WHEN YOU USE THE TERM RACISM, OR YOU SAY THAT SOMETHING IS RACIST, YOU ARE ACCUSING THEM OF WEARING THEIR BED SHEETS OUT AT NIGHT AND BURNING CROSSES. THE MOST SERIOUS PROBLEM IS HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE MANIFESTATION OF RACISM.

Mary says AND WHICH GROUPS WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE MOST VULNERABLE TO HATE CRIMES?

Karen says AND ALL OF THE DATA SHOW FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THE DIFFERENCE POLICE SERVICES THAT GATHER HATE CRIME STATISTICS THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR, PRIMARILY BLACK-CANADIANS ARE IN THE HIGHEST TARGET GROUP. SECOND JEWISH VICTIMS. INCIDENTS OF VANDALISM, HARASS FAMENT AND SO ON. AND THIRD, HIGHEST IS THE GAYS AND LESBIANS, THE PERCENTAGES ARE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD JUST OVER 50 PERCENT FOR BLACK CANADIANS, APPROXIMATELY 35 PERCENT OF THE crimes AGAINST JEWISH PEOPLE AND SNUINGS AND ABOUT 10 PERCENT. NOW, THAT DATA, AT 10 PERCENT OF THE CRIME GAY BASHING AND SO ON. AND NOW, HAVING SAID THAT, RIGHT AFTER SEPTEMBER 11TH, WE SAW HOW CLOSE RACISM REALLY WAS TO THE SURFACE IN THIS COUNTRY. AND THERE WAS A HUGE INCREASE OF INCIDENTS AND HATE CRIME AND HORRIFIC AGAINST MUSLIMS AND ARAB KA AID YANS OR PEOPLE THOUGHT TO BE THEM. THAT HAS... CANADIANS. THAT CONTINUED FOR A FEW MONTHS, REALLY PEAKING THE INCIDENT FOR THAT YEAR. AS WELL AT THE SAME TIME A VERY DRAMATIC INCREASE IN ANTIZ MANTIC BECAUSE OF THE SCAPEGOATING. IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES IN GENERAL SO, PEOPLE OF ALL RACIAL BACKGROUNDS, RIGHT AFTER SEPTEMBER 11TH.

Mary says THAT HAS DIED DOWN?

Karen says THOSE INCIDENTS ACCORDING TO THE HATE CRIMES DATA OF THE POLICE HAVE GONE DOWN TO BASELINE LEVEL OF BEFORE SAEFERNT. HOWEVER, THE - SEPTEMBER 11TH, HOWEVER, THE SYSTEMIC, THE RACIAL PROFILING AT THE BORDERS, THESE WOULDN'T BE CALLED HATE CRIMES ALTHOUGH THERE IS A TENDENCY. I THINK IT MAY EVEN BE CAUSING A PROBLEM IN OUR FIELD, YOU KNOW, HATE CRIME IS A SPECIFIC KIND OF CRIME DEFINED BY THE CRIMINAL CODE. INCIDENTS OF OTHER FORMS OF RACISM AND BIAS, SYSTEMIC DISCRIMINATION. HARASS., ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DEALT WITH AND HAVE A TERRIBLE IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S LIVES, ON THEIR RIGHTS, AND WE ALL, ALL OF US, ALL OF THE GROUPS HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER WITH GOVERNMENT, WITH POLICING SERVICES, WITH CUSTOM AND REVENUE, YOU NAME THE AGENCY AND, AGAIN, I'LL GET BACK TO YOU. IT ISN'T REALLY A BIAS. I'LL GET BACK TO EDUCATION AS WELL. PUBLIC EDUCATION, CLASSROOM EDUCATION, PROFESSIONAL ED KAING, AT EVERY LEVEL OF THE SYSTEM, TO COUNTER THAT'S FUNDAMENTAL.

Mary says YOU KNOW WHAT? ANOTHER SIDE AS WELL. I WONDER, YOU MENTION ANTISEMITISM. CAN CRITICISM BE SOMETIMES MISCONSTRUED FOR RACISM. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE HIGHLY CHARGED SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, COULD IT BE SEEN THAT WHEN THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A CRITICISM OF LET'S SAY ISRAELI POLICY, IT'S MISCONSTRUED AS RACISM. THAT PERCEPTION?

Karen says THAT CAN TRNLY HAPPEN. I THINK IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO SIT DOWN AND REALLY TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND UNDERSTAND THEM BECAUSE OF COURSE IT IS LEGITIMATE TO CRITICIZE ANY GOVERNMENT AND ANY GOVERNMENT POLICIES. IT'S LEGITIMATE FOR ME TO CRITICIZE CERTAIN CANADIAN POLICIES, IT DOESN'T MAKE ME ANTICANADIAN. SIMILARLY, I CAN CRITICIZE POLICIES OF ISRAEL, SO CAN YOU. AND IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE ANTI-SEMITIC. YOU HOWEVER, THERE ARE TIMES WHEN PEOPLE USE THAT IN AN ANTI-ISRAEL BIAS GENERALIZE TO ALL JEWS AND THAT DOES CROSS THE LINE TO ANTISEMITISM. WHAT HAPPENED FOR EXAMPLE AT THE WORLD CONFERENCE AGAINST RACISM. THE CONFERENCE ITSELF AND THE GOVERNMENT, THE BIAS THERE, IF THE NORM IN THE UN IS IN THESE DOCUMENTS, NOT TO SINGLE OUT THE SPECIFIC COUNTRY. BUT TO WRITE A GENERIC BLUE PRINT AND ONLY ONE COUNTRY THAT HAS SINGLED OUT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION. THAT ACTUALLY IS BIAS. TO NAME ONLY ONE. THAT'S CALLED DIFFERENT IAL TREATMENT. IF IT IS ON THE BASIS OF RACE, RELIGION, IT CAN BE CALLED SOMETHING. OR IF YOU ARE WALKING ALONG THE STREET AND SOMEONE IS A VISIBLE JEW, AND SOMEONE BEGINS TO YELL AT THEM, AS THEY DID SOME OF THE NGO N OR IN STREETS IN CANADA, YOU KILLED MY PEOPLE. THAT IS TARGETING AND THAT'S GENERALIZATION. AND THAT'S... WE HAVE TO SAY THAT IS THE SAME FOR ALL GROUPS. THERE ARE TIMES WHEN ONE CAN CRITICIZE A PERSON'S PERFORMANCE, IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE RACIST. WHAT WE HAVE TO WATCH FOR ARE THE PATTERNS AND WE HAVE TO WATCH THAT QUOTES ANTIZIONISM DOESN'T CROSS THE LINE INTO ANTISEMITISM OR LOOK AT A POLICY LIKE ZERO TOLERANCE. DIFFERENT IAL IMPACTING ON ONLY ONE GROUP. THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM. THAT HYPER VIGILANCE IS PREJUDICE.

Mary says DOES THAT MEAN BEING OVER SENSITIVE TO A SWAING?

Karen says IF I AM EXPECTING YOU, IF I AM WATCHING YOU AND EXPECTING YOU TO DO SOMETHING OR TO MESS UP OR, YOU KNOW, HMM, PEOPLE COMING IN, I AM GOING TO WATCH THEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO SHOP LIFT BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO LIKES... HYPER VIGILANCE. THAT'S PREJUDICE. WE HAVE TO HAVE...

Mary says YEAH.

Karen says AN INCREDIBLE KNEE JERK REAK. IF YOU BEGIN TO POINT OUT USING REALLY QUALITY RESEARCH, BIASS, THAT SUDDENLY YOU ARE... YOU ARE TARING EVERYBODY WITH THE SAME BRUSH THAT IS NOT THE CASE. PUBLIC EDUCATION, DIALOGUE. TAKING A DEEP BREATH AND CUTTING THROUGH THE DENIAL. IT IS LEGITIMATE TO CRITICIZE POLICIES, IT IS LEGIT NAT TO CRITICIZE PRACTICES AND IT DOESN'T THEN MEAN THAT SOMEONE IS BIAS OR ANTI-SEMITIC OR ANTIPHOBIC.

Mary says WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME, KAREN, WHERE DO YOU THINK YOUR WORK HAS HAD THE GREATEST IMPACT?

Karen says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

Mary says THE BEST OF LUCK AND CONTINUED SUCCESS WITH YOUR WORK. THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

Karen says THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Mary says THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE CANADIAN RACE RELAYINGS FOUBDATION. NOW FOR MORE INFORMATION, YOU CAN CONTACT THEM, THE NUMBER IS. OR YOU CAN GO ON THE NET AT...

A slate reads "Canadian Race Relations Foundation, 1-888-240-4936, www.crr.ca."

But that's it for our show today. Thank you for watching. And please join us each weekday, Monday to Friday, for More to Life at 1 o'clock.

A slate reads "The advice given in the preceding program is of a general nature only. Viewers should consult their own medical professional for medical advice specific to their circumstances."

Watch: Healthy People, Karen Mock