Transcript: Who's In Charge, Zero Tolerance (Oct 1/2003) | Oct 01, 2003

(music plays)

In animation, against a backdrop of colourful squares in hues of purple, blue and orange, words fly by as clips show people performing different activities: More to Health, More to Education, More to Science, More to Money, More to Family, More to Ontario. Finally, the title of the show reads "More to life."

Mary Ito sits in a studio made of translucent panes that mimic the animated presentation of the show.

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair and bangs. She's wearing a purple suit and a pendant necklace.

She says HELLO. I'M MARY ITO. WELCOME TO "MORE TO LIFE." LAYER IN THE SHOW, WHAT TO DO ABOUT KIDS WHO CUT CLASS? BUT FIRST, AS A PARENT, IT'S EASY TO THINK THAT A HAPPY CHILDHOOD IS THE FOUNDATION OF RESPONSIBLE ADULTHOOD. BUT THE FACT IS THAT WHEN IT COMES TO BUILDING A GOOD ADULT, THERE IS SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED. AND PARENTS HOLD MOST OF THE POWER TOOLS. KEY IS... IS IN KNOWING HOW TO USE THEM. HERE TO TELL US IS A PARENTING EXPERT, CATHY LYNN. IS A HOST OF A POPULAR PARENTING PROGRAM IN BRITISH COLUMBIA AND SHE'S THE AUTHOR OF "WHO'S IN CHARGE ANYWAY? HOW PARENT CAN TEACH CHILDREN HOW TO DO THE RIGHTS THING."

Kathy is in her sixties, with short blond hair. She's wearing glasses, an aubergine coat and a pendant gold necklace.
A picture of her book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of five children laughing.

Mary says WE HAVE THREE COPIES TO GIVE WAY TO CALLERS, SO PLEASE CALL IN WITH YOUR QUESTIONS. MAYBE YOU'RE WONDERING HOW TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH THE TEEN OR HOW TO TEACH GOOD MANNERS TO A VERY SHY CHILD. GIVE US A CALL TODAY. IN...

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Mary says WELCOME.

Kathy says THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Mary says THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

Kathy says IT'S FABULOUS TO BE HERE.

Mary says LET ME START, FIRST OF ALL WITH YOUR TITLE. WHO'S IN CHARGE THESE DAYS, ANYWAY? PARENTS ORCHIDS?

The caption changes to "Kathy Lynn. Parenting Expert."

Kathy says THE REASON THAT I WROTE THE BOOK IS WHEN I'M OUT SPEAK TO GO GROUPS OF PARENT. I DO A LOT OF SPEAKING LIKE THAT, I START TODAY SEE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT MORE AND MORE AND MORE THAT KIDS WERE IN CHARGE. AND I'LL GIVE YOU A PERFECT EXAMPLE. A PARENT OF A PRE-SCHOOLER WAS TALKING ABOUT HIS 3-YEAR-OLD HAVING A TOTAL MELTDOWN AT THE MALL. WELL, WE CAN ALL RELATE TO THAT. WE'VE SEEN IT, RIGHT?

Mary says SURE. AND WE HAVE THE MELTDOWN USUALLY AFTERWARDS.

Kathy says EXACT LIB. LATER ON. AND SO, YOU KNOW, I WENT THROUGH THE WHOLE DON'T TAKE THEM WHEN THEIR TIRED AND DON'T TAKE THEM WHEN THEY'RE HUNGRY AND ALL OF THAT GOOD STUFF. BUT, YOU KNOW BE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AND HE SAID, THEN WHAT DO I DO? AND I SAID TUCK HER UNDER HER ARM AND GO HOME. DON'T TRY AND TALK TO HER. SHE CAN'T HEAR AND SHE'S SHREIKING. AND THEN HE SAID, WHAT IF SHE CRIES? AND I JUST THOUGHT, WOW, HAS SHE GOT THE POWER IN THAT HOUSE. WHO'S IN CHARGE ANYWAY? WELL IN, THAT HOUSE, SHE IS. A FEW TEARS, SHE GETS WHAT SHE WANT. BECAUSE HER FATHER BELIEVES THAT SHE SHOULD NEVER BE UNHAPPY. AND... AND I'VE HAD LOTS OF EXAMPLE THAT IS.

Mary says THAT'S INTERESTING. FACT THAT YOU HAVE HAD LOFTS EXPERIENCES OF THAT. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS? WHAT'S GOING ON?

Kathy says WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THAT IT STARTED WITH... STARTED WITH US DECIDING THAT WE WOULD NEVER SAY BECAUSE I SAID SO. YOU KNOW? THOSE OF US WHO GREW UP, NEVER BEING...

Mary says THAT'S ALL WE HEARD FOR A CERTAIN GENERATION.

Kathy says THAT'S RIGHT AND NOTHING WAS EVER EXPLAINED TO US. THAT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA. BUT WE'VE GONE WAY TOO FAR THE OTHER WAY AND NOW WE EXPLAIN AT LENGTH. WE NEGOTIATE. AND WE WANT THE KIDS TO UNDERSTAND. YOU KNOW, IT TAKES HOURS AND HOURS. AND WE'VE GOT THESE LITTLE KIDS WHO ARE WAITING TO SEE WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO. WE'VE GOT THESE LITTLE KIDS WHO CAN'T LISTEN WHILE WE DO ALL OF THIS STUFF. O OR WE DO ALL OF THIS EXPLAINING AND WE DON'T TELL THEM WHAT WHEN... WHAT WE EXPECT THEM TO DO ABOUT IT AND THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A CLUE WHAT'S EXPECTED. SO THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED.

Mary says IS IT ALSO TIED IN THIS BIG THING ABOUT DON'T SAY NO TO YOUR CHILD. THERE ARE 50 MILLION OTHER WAYS TO SAY IT. BUT TRY NOT TO SAY NO SO WE'RE TRYING TO FIND ALL OF THESE OTHER WAYS. WITHOUT HAVING TO SAY NO. YOU CAN'T.

Kathy says BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT I ACTUALLY THINK, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF NO. OTHERWISE WE GET THESE TODDLERS AND THAT'S THE ONLY WORD THEY CAN SAY. BUT WHEN WE'RE SAYING YES, WE HAVE TO BE, WE HAVE TO BE DIRECTING THEM TO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO. NOT, NOT DON'T SAY NO, THEREFORE THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT. IT'S... IT'S TRY TO FIND WAYS TO ACTUALLY SAY NO. WITHOUT... SO IT'S THINGS LIKE, THAT'S NOT A TOY. YOU KNOW? THE PLANT, FOR EXAMPLE. THIS IS A TOY. SO... SO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE STILL TEACHING THEM THAT YOU DON'T PLAY IN THE MUD IN THE PLANT. BUT YOU DO PLAY WITH A BLOCKS. SO YOU'RE STILL DOING WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. INSTEAD OF SORT OF GOING, WELL, I KNOW YOU REALLY LIKE THE PLANT AND YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU PLAY WITH THE PLANT YOU MIGHT KILL IT A 2-YEAR-OLD DOESN'T GET THAT.

Mary says SO WHY CAN'T WE SAY JUST DON'T PLAY IN THE PLANT?

Kathy says YOU CAN SABRE THAT...

Mary says CAN I SAY THAT?

Kathy says YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. BUT IF YOU USE THE WORD NO ALL THE TIME, IT'S WHAT... I MEAN, OUR KIDS ARE... AREN'T SO MUCH LISTENING TO US AS WE LECTURE AND BLATER AWAY. HE THEY ARE WATCHING, AND LEARNING FROM HOW WE, WE MODEL OUR BEHAVIOUR. BUT, BUT, YOU KNOW, IF A MODELING IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT GOES ON WE SAY NO, THEY BE, THEN THAT'S... THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO SAY.

Mary says THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. BECAUSE I WANT TODAY BRING THAT FRONT AND CENTRE.

Kathy says YOU'RE WELCOME.

Mary says WELL, THE THING IS, I MEAN, WE CAN TEEVEN AND TALK TO... UNTIL WE'RE BLUE IN THE FACE. RIGHT? WE SAY DON'T PUT THE ELBOWS ON THE TABLE. DON'T DO THAT. DON'T BELITTLE YOUR TEACHER. MEANWHILE, WE PUT THE ELBOWS ON THE TABLE AND WE BELITTLE THE TEACHERS AT SCHOOL. DOESN'T IT START WITH US FIRST? DON'T WE HAVE TO EMBODY?

Kathy says ABSOLUTELY... ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE TO MODEL WHAT THE KIDS NEED TO DO. WE NEED TO MODEL AND SUPERVISE AND WE NEED TO DEMAND AND EXPECT. IF WE DO ALL OF THAT AROUND THE STANDARDS THAT WE WANT TO SET FOR OUR CHILDREN'S BEHAVIOUR, THEY'LL LEARN TO DO WHAT'S RIGHT. RATHER THAN WHAT'S EASY. AND THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK'S ALL ABOUT.

Mary says UH-HUH. YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT OLD ARGUMENT AS WELL ABOUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISCIPLINE AND PUNISHMENT? NOW, WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT STPHISH PUNISHMENT VERSUS DISCIPLINE.

Kathy says I'M OPPOSED TO PUNISHMENT AND IN FAVOUR OF DISCIPLINE. PEOPLE DO CONFUSE THEM ALL THE TIME. PUNISHMENT IS ABOUT IN SOME WAY CAUSING PAIN OR DISCOMFORT. IN ORDER TO... TO GET THE OTHER PERSON TO CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOUR. SO ARE IT... SO IF I HURT YOU ENOUGH, YOU WILL STOP DOING WHATEVER IT IS YOU'RE DOING. BUT YOU STOP BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID OF THE PAIN. AND YOU ALSO THEN CAN VERY EASILY BECOME AFRAID OF ME IF I'M THE ONE THAT'S HITTING YOU IF YOU'RE MY LITTLE KID AND YOU'RE ALSO NOT LEARNING ANYTHING EXCEPT WHEN MOMMY'S MAD, SHE GETS TO HIT ME. AND... AND IF I DON'T DO THAT AGAIN, THEN I WON'T GET HIT AGAIN.

Mary says NOW, ARE YOU AEQUATING PUNISHMENT SPECIFICALLY WITH SPANKING.

Kathy says NO, I'M EQUATING ANYTHING THAT WE DO THAT'S DESIGNED TO HURT OR CAUSE DISCOMFORT FOR THE OTHER PERSON. IT'S SORT OF THE NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT, RIGHT? WHERE DISCIPLINE IS ABOUT TEACHING AND TRAINING AND GUIDING OUR CHILDREN SO THAT THEY LEARN WHAT'S RIGHT. THEY LEARN... THEY LEARN WHY THERE'S RULES. BUT THAT DONE MEAN WE DO NOTHING. BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT WHATEVER THE CONSEQUENCES ARE OF WHATEVER IT IS THEY'RE DOING, THEY'RE LOGICALLY RELATED TO WHAT IT IS THAT THEY DID WRONG. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, YOUR CHILD COMES HOME, AND DROPS THEIR BIKE ON SIDEWALK. AND JUST LEAVES IT THERE. OKAY? SO... SO NOW YOU CAN GRAB THE BIKE AND SMACK THE KID AND YELL AT THE KID ABOUT HOW, OH, MY, DON'T YOU KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY IT TOOK FOR ME TO BUY THAT. I WORK REALLY HARD. DON'T YOU CARE? AND MAYBE THEY WON'T DROP THE BIKE AGAIN BECAUSE OF ALL OF THAT. BUT THEY DIDN'T LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT, ABOUT WHY IT IS WE SHOULD MAYBE PUT OUR BIKE AWAY. ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU COULD JUST LEAVE THE BIKE. AND HAVE THE CHILD HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT IT MAY BE STOLEN. OR RUN OVER. OR RUSTED IN THE RAIN. OR... IF YOU CAN'T STAND DOING THAT, YOU COULD ACTUALLY PUT IT WAY YOURSELF. LOCK IT UP. AND GO TO YOUR CHILD AND SAY, IS HAVING A BIKE IS A PRIVILEGE. THAT CARRIES WITH IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LOOKING AFTER IT. I WILL HANG ON TO THE BIKE FOR TWO DAYS. AND THEN YOU MAY HAVE YOUR BIKE BACK AND TRY AGAIN AND THEN NEXT TIME, YOU WILL HOPEFULLY REMEMBER TO LOCK IT UP.

Mary says WOW. THAT WOULD TAKE ME A WEEK TO COME UP WITH THAT SCENARIO.

Kathy says YOU KNOW, I KNOW. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT... WHAT'S INTERESTING, MARY. IS THAT WHEN YOU START THINKING LIKE THAT, IT ACTUALLY GETS EASY. THE FIRST TIME...

Mary says YOU CAN TELL I HAVEN'T BEEN THINKING LIKE THAT.

Kathy says I KNOW. AND THE FIRST TIME OR TWO, YOU REALLY... BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF SAYING, WHAT... WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM? AND WHAT IS IT THAT I WANT MY CHILD TO LEARN.

Mary says RIGHT. YOU KNOW, LET ME GO BACK TO THE SECOND SCENARIO YOU PRESENTED ABOUT JUST LEAVING THE BIKE THERE. AND THE CHILD HAS TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES T GETS STOLEN OR RAINED ON OR RUSTED OR WHATEVER. BECAUSE THERE'S THAT WHOLE SCHOOL OF PHILOSOPHY OF DEAL WITH THE QUESTIONS OF YOUR OWN ANGLES. HOW DO YOU DEAL ABOUT... HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT THINKING?

Kathy says I SEE IT AS STAGES. THERE'S THREE... THERE'S THREE STEPS THAT YOU TAKE TO DISCIPLINE. FIRST ONE IS THAT WE TRY TO PREVENT MISBEHAVIOUR. BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES WHEN KIDS ARE MISBEHAVING, ESPECIALLY LITTLE GUYS, IT'S BECAUSE SOMETHING ISN'T WORKING FOR THEM. I MEAN, LET'S GO BACK TO THE KID IN THE MALL F YOU TAKE A TODDLER TO THE MALL AT NAP TIME, IT'S AN INVITATION FOR A PROBLEM.

Mary says RIGHT.

Kathy says SO YOU CAN PREVENT THAT PARTICULAR TANTRUM BY SIMPLY TIMING THE TRIP FOR A DIFFERENT TIME. AND MEETING THE REAL DEVELOPMENTAL NEEDS OF YOUR CHILD, RIGHT? PREVENTION IS STEP ONE. STEP TWO IS TO SAY TO OURSELF... YOURSELF, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I DID NOTHING? WHAT THAT DOES IS IT DOES A COUPLE OF THINGS? NUMBER ONE IT, REALLY LETS YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS THAT CHILD NEEDS TO LEARN. YOU KNOW? WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM ? WHAT IS THE LESSON WE'RE TRYING TO TEACH THE CHILD? BECAUSE THAT'S OUR JOB. IS TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN. TO DO THE RIGHT THING. THE OTHER THING IT DOES IS LET US DETERMINE AS TO WHETHER THE FACT WE COULD REALLY JUST LET THEM DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES AND LEAVE IT ALONE F WE CAN'T. PARTICULARLY IF IT'S DANGEROUS, OR IF A CHILD HE'S HEALTH OR SAFETY OR IF THEY'RE BREAKING THE LAW, YOU KNOW IN, THOSE CASES, WE ABSOLUTELY INTERVENE. BUT WHEN WE DO INTERVENE, WE LOOK AT THE CONSEQUENCES, AND WE SAY, WHAT COULD WE DO THAT IS AS CLOSELY RELATED TO WHAT WOULD HAPPEN NATURALLY AS POSSIBLE? AND THEN THEY'RE LEARNING THE REAL LESSON, WHICH IS WHY IS LEAVING MY BIKE ON THE SIDEWALK A PROBLEM?

Mary says UH-HUH. I HAVE TO ASK YOU, WERE THERE ANY PARENTSING GURUS OR PEOPLE THAT YOU LOOKED UP TO WHILE YOU WERE PARENTSING?

Kathy says WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE WASN'T. UM, AND THIS... THIS IS PROBABLY WHY I GOT INTO THIS BUSINESS. I... I REALLY WAS ON MY OWN. AND THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT HAPPENING. UM, PARENT EFFECTIVENESS TRAINING WITH THOMAS GORDON OUT OF THE STATES WAS STARTING TO HAPPEN. BUT, BUT THERE REALLY WASN'T MUCH. I MEAN, I JUST SOAKED UP EVERYTHING THAT I COULD FIND. AND... AND THEN WHEN MY KIDS WERE IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, I ACTUALLY NET A WOMAN. SHE'S ONE OF THE PEOPLE TO WHOM I DEDICATED THE BOOK. SHE WAS TRAINING SOCIAL WORKERS AROUND PARENTING EDUCATION ISSUES. BUT SHE WANTED TO TRAIN SOMEBODY TO WORK IN THE COMMUNITY. AND WE MET. ACTUALLY IN A FRENCH CLASS. IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT. AND... AND SHE'S THE ONE WHO TRAINED ME SPECIFICALLY TO PARENTING EDGE INDICATION... EDUCATION AND SHE'S STILL A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE. SHE'S A FABULOUS ROLE MODEL AND MENTOR. THAT'S... SO THAT'S THE WAY THAT KIND OF ALL HAPPENED. BUT, BUT YEAH, IT WAS REALLY HARD. I WAS KIND OF MAKING IT UP, IN A WAY. ALTHOUGH I WAS READING EVERYTHING THAT I COULD GET MY HANDS ON. BUT A LOT OF COURSES AND... AND LECTURES WHY... WERE REALLY BAD.

Mary says DO YOU THINK THAT... THAT A LOT OF IT IS BECAUSE OF JUST OUR LIFESTYLE TODAY? AND WE DON'T EVEN HAVE THE TIME TO PARENT? TIME IS SO SHORT, RIGHT? JUST A LITTLE... IN LITTLE PIECES FOR US.

Kathy says YOU KNOW, THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS. RETURN IS THAT I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO IN SOME CASES BE SHIFIKT OUR PRIORITIES. UM IF YOU'VE GOT NO TIME FOR KIDS, WHY DID YOU HAVE KIDS? YOU KNOW? I MEAN, THAT'S... THAT'S...

Mary says YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, FORGET THE TERM QUALITY TIME.

Kathy says QUALITY TIME IS A CROCK IN MY VIEW. QUALITY TIME WAS DEVELOPED ON... ON THE PREMISE THAT, YOU KNOW IF WE DID IT RIGHT, WE DO... COULD DO IT IN LIMITED TIME AND THEN LET OTHER PEOPLE TAKE CARE OF ALL THE NASTY STUFF. A 1 A-YEAR-OLD BOY, I DID A NEWS LETTER AND I HAD AN ARTICLE REALLY ABOUT QUALITY TIME N WHICH I CALL IT A CROCK. THIS KID PICKED UP THIS THING BECAUSE I HAD JUST BEEN TO THE PRINTERS AND HE WAS READING IT AND HE SAID, YOU DIDN'T ASK KIDS AND I SAID, NO, I DIDN'T. SO WHAT'S QUALITY TIME? HE SAID IT'S A WAY FOR PARENT WHO DON'T WANT TO SPEND MUCH TIME WITH THEIR KIDS TO... TO DO SO AND NOT FEEL GUILTY. OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF BABES. HE WAS A PRETTY BIG GUY. BUT 15. AND, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT WAS... HE HAD IT RIGHT THERE. NOW, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN IS THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT... THAT WE NEED TO BE HOVERING OUR O... OVER OUR CHILDREN 24-7. WHAT IT REALLY MEANS IS THAT THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT WE'RE... THAT THEY ARE IN OUR THOUGHTS. THAT... THAT THEY ARE ON THE TOP OF OUR PRIORITY LIST AND THAT IF THEY DID NEED US, WE WOULD BE THERE. THAT'S WHAT THEY NEED. AND... AND THEN WHEN WE TO HAVE TIME WITH THEM IT, DONE HAVE TO BE THIS... THIS FANCY DANCY TIME. YOU KNOW, SITTING TOGETHER IN A ROOM, YOU'RE READING A NEWSPAPER AND THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE COMICS, THAT CAN BE QUALITY TIME.

Mary says RIGHT. YEP. OKAY. LET'S TAKE CALLS HERE. WE'RE LOADED WITH CALLS. JOANNE IS ON THE LINE FROM TORONTO. HI, JOANNE.

The caller says HI.

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD.

The caller says I'M CURIOUS IF YOU THINK IT'S EVER TOO LATE TO CHANGE CHILDREN'S BEHAVIOUR. I'M THINKING IN THIS CASE OF TEENAGERS. AFTER A HISTORY OF, UM, OF BEING TOO LENIENT OR INCONSISTENT IN DISCIPLINE. UM, I'M ACTUALLY A CONCERNED AUNT TALKING ABOUT HER NEPHEW WHO RIGHT NOW REFUSES TO GO TO SCHOOL. HAS A WHOLE SLOUGH OF ISSUES AND ATTITUDES AND PROBLEMS. AND IT SEEMS NO MATTER WHAT MY SISTER DOES OR WHERE SHE TURNS TO TRY AND GET SOME HELP, SHE'S JUST STYMIED.

Kathy says IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT. BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE. I HATE TO THINK THAT WE WOULD EVER GIVE UP ON A KID. NOW, IF HE'S REFUSING TO GO TO SCHOOL, I WOULD FIRST OF ALL WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON AT SCHOOL. DOES HE HAVE LEARNING DISABILITY? IS HE IN THE WRONG SCHOOL? TAKING THE WRONG COURSE INSIDE AND IT MIGHT BE THAT WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO FOR A WHILE IS GET A PART TIME JOB OR A JOB, AND FIND OUT WHERE HE WANT TO BE. AND THEN HE'LL GO BACK TO SCHOOL WHEN HE'S READY TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL. UM, I WOULD REALLY WANT TO SEE HIS PARENTS SIT DOWN AND TALK TO HIM ABOUT NOT, NOT SORT OF THE LECTURES OF, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO GO TO SCHOOL AND IF YOU DON'T GO TO SCHOOL YOU'LL NEVER GET A JOB AND WHAT KIND OF KID OF YOU ARE YOU... ARE YOU ANYWAY AND SAY, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING FOR YOU AND WE WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT WHAT YOU NEED? BECAUSE IN THIS CASE, WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON FOR THIS CHILD. AND IT WILL TAKE A WHILE. BECAUSE HE HE BONE TRUST THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO LISTEN TO HIM AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LISTEN WITHOUT JUDGING FOR A WHILE. SO THAT THEY CAN FINDS OUT WHAT'S GOING ON. AND THEN THEY CAN START HELPING HIM. BACK ON A PATH THAT MAKES SENSE.

Mary says HMM. YOU KNOW, WHAT I HEAR FROM PARENTS OF TEENS SO OFTEN IS THAT MY TEEN DOES NOT TALK TO ME. AND THIS COULD EVEN BE THEY HAVE BEEN A GOOD RELATIONSHIP. RIGHT? IT'S NOT EVEN THAT IT'S A BAD RELATIONSHIP. JUST THAT YOU KNOW, HOW'S SCHOOL, FINE. YES. NO. VERY LITTLE INFORMATION COMING THROUGH. SHOULD PAIRP BE CONCERNED AT ALL? OVER THAT... O OVER THAT KIND OF...

Kathy says NO, IT'S SUCH, SUCH TYPICAL BEHAVIOUR THAT WE REALLY DON'T WANT TO... ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG TEENS. THEY GO THROUGH A STAGE AT 13 WHERE, HMM, LIKE, THEY DON'T SAY ANYTHING TO YOU FOR A WHILE AND YOU NEED TO RESPECT THAT. YOU NEED TO RESPECT THAT. AND YOU CAN CERTAINLY DEMAND THAT THEY'RE POLITE TO YOU AND THAT THEY RESPOND TO YOU. LIKE, YOU DON'T ALLOW THEM TO BE RUDE TO YOU OR GUEST INSIDE YOUR HOME. BUT, BUT THE OTHER THING IS THAT WE TEND TO INTEGRATE. YOU KNOW? AH...

Mary says WE WOULD... WE HE NEED ANSWER. THAT'S WHAT...

Kathy says WE WANT INFORMATIONUE NEED ANSWERS ABOUT WHERE ARE THEY GOING AND WHO ARE THEY WITH, AND THAT KIND OF THING. BUT, YOU KNOW, HOW DID IT GO IN SCHOOL TODAY. AND THEY GO AH, AH, AH. I FIND WHAT WORKS BETTER IS FIRST OF ALL TO BE SITTING AROUND THE TABLE AND THEN YOU START BY GOING, YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED AT WORK TODAY. I HAD THE COOLEST DAY. ON THE FUNNIEST THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY HOME IN THE CAR. THEN WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS MODELING CONVERSATION AND RATHER THAN INTEGRATION. THIS WORKS WITH KIDS OF ALL AGES.

Mary says YOU KNOW WHAT I FINDS ACTUALLY MYSELF, I FIND THAT IF I'M IN THE CAR WITH ONE OF MY KIDS, THEY'RE SORT OF TRAPPED AND THEY END UP TALKING TO ME.

Kathy says YOU KNOW WHAT? THEY DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT YOU.

Mary says IS THAT WHY?

Kathy says SERIOUSLY.

Mary says THAT'S VERY GOOD.

Kathy says SERIOUSLY. YOU'RE BOTH LOOKING FORWARD AND THEY ALSO KNOW WHAT IT WILL BE OVER. THEY'RE NOT TRAPPED FOREVER. RIGHT? THE... I'VE ALSO TALKED TO PARENT WHO TELL ME THEY HAVE FABULOUS CONVERSATIONS WHILE JOGING WITH THE KIDS. BECAUSE THE KIDS CAN JOG ALONGSIDE THEM WHEN THEY TALK AND WHEN IT'S GETTING TOO CLOSE THE KID CAN PULL BACK OR RUN FORWARD. USUALLY RUN FORWARD. BECAUSE THEY CAN RUN FASTER THAN THE PARENT. THEN THEY CAN SLOW UP AGAIN. WE NEED TO FIND THE TIMES. OTHER THING THAT WORKS REALLY WELL IS GETTING INVOLVED IN A PROJECT. PAINTING THE FENCE TOGETHER, DOING GARDENING TOGETHER. WORKING TOGETHER AND THE CONVERSATION AT FIRST IS ABOUT THE WORK YOU'RE DOING. THEN IT BECOMES INCONSEQUENTIALAL CONVERSATION AND THEN IT BECOME MORE IMPORTANT.

Mary says THAT'S... THE RUNNING THREAD I SEE THROUGH THIS IS THAT THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON WHILE YOU'RE DOING THE TALKING.

Kathy says EXACTLY. THINK ABOUT IT. SOME OF THE BEST CONVERSATION THAT IS YOU HAVE WITH OTHER PEOPLE ARE... YOU'RE IN A PROJECT TOGETHER. YOU'RE WORKING TOGETHER. SUDDENLY... YOU'RE HAVING THIS FABULOUS CONVERSATION.

Mary says UH-HUH. OR OVER DINNER. WHILE YOU'RE EATING.

Kathy says WHERE AS IF I CAME UM... CAME UP AND SAID MARY, WE NEED TO HAVE A CONVERSATION. YOU WOULD NEEDILY GO, OH, MY GOSH WHAT IS... WHAT AWFUL THING IS SHE GOING TO SAY?

Mary says THAT'S TRUE. NOW TO CHAIR MAIN FROM MISSISSAUGA. HELLO... CHARMANE FROM MISSISSAUGA. HELLO.

The caller says HI.

Mary says HELLO.

The caller says I HAVE A 1 A-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER AND I JUST READ THE DIARY AND SHE WANT TO GIVE UP THE VIRGINITY. WHAT SHOULD I DO TO STOP HER.

Kathy says NUMBER ONE, YOU MAIN APPRECIATE IN AND WON'T BE SURPRISED, WE SHOULDN'T READ THE KID'S DIARY. YOU BETTER NOT TELL HER YOU DID IT, BECAUSE IF YOU DO, YOU'RE GOING TO... SHE'LL NEVER TRUST YOU AGAIN. BECAUSE YOU INVADED HER PERSONAL SPACE. WE SHOULDN'T READ OUR KID'S DIARIES OR GO THROUGH THE BACK PACKS OR READ THEIR E-MAIL FOR THAT MATTER. NOW, THE O OTHER PROBLEM IS THE WHOLE VIRGINITY ISSUE. THAT'S ONE YOU CAN BE DEEKL WITH SEPARATELY ALREADY. BECAUSE IF YOU'RE NOT TALKING TO HER ALREADY ABOUT SEXUAL HEALTH, YOU SHOULD BE. THAT CAN BE JUST BE SOMETHING WHERE YOU SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT? IT OCCURS TO ME THAT WE REALLY HAVEN'T HAD A CONVERSATION FOR QUITE A WHILE ABOUT YOUR SEXUAL HEALTH. WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE FACTS OF LIFE. BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO KNOW... YOU NEED TO KNOW SOME OF MY CONSIDERATIONS AND. THERE'S A REALLY GOOD BOOK CALLED "MORE SPEAKING OF SEX." AND THE AUTHOR IS MEG HICKLEY.

Mary says WE'VE HAD HER ON.

Kathy says SHE'S FABULOUS. SHE'S RETIRED NOW.

Mary says NO! SHE'S GREAT.

Kathy says AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DO WANT TO TELL YOU, AND I'LL PROBABLY MENTION A BOOK OR TWO IS THAT THEY'RE ALL LISTED ON MY WEBSITE AND MY WEBSITE IS EASY. IT'S PARENTINGTODAY.CA. AND THAT WAY INSTEAD OF PEOPLE WRITING FURIOUSLY, THERE IS A SECTION WHICH HAS RECOMMENDED READING. SO... SO...

Mary says PARENTSTODAY.CA. ANOTHER LINE THAT I HEAR... I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT LINE STARTS WITH KIDS WHO ARE GETTING A LITTLE OLDER IS, WELL, EVERYBODY GETS TO DO IT. WHY CAN I? AND THAT... THAT GOES RIGHT... I MEAN, TALK ABOUT MAKING A PARENTS FEEL GUILTY, RIGHT? WHY WOULD I WANT MY CHILD BEING THE ONLY ONE LEFT OUT?

Kathy says I KNOW. WELL, KIDS HAVE BEEN USING THAT FOREVER. YOU KNOW? AND THAT'S THE WHOLE OF EVERYBODY WAS GOING TO JUMP OFF THE BRIDGE, WOULD YOU, TOO?

Mary says I SAY CLIFF.

Kathy says BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT? ALL THE KIDS DO THEN IS GOING, BEING SARCASTIC, FORGET IT? SO YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. SO YOU REALLY NEED TO SIT DOWN WITH YOUR KIDS AND CLARIFY WHAT YOUR HOUSE RULES ARE. WON YOU HAVE YOUR HOUSE RULES CLARIFIED. GENERAL, THE OLDER THE CHILD, THE MORE YOU YOU VOUF THEM IN THE CONVERSATION. WITH THE LITTLE KID, THESE ARE THE RULES. YOU KNOW? WITH THE KIDS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, HERE'S SOME RULES THAT WE DON'T NEGOTIATE. HERE'S A COUPLE THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THE PROCESS SHIFTS. BY THE TIME THEY'RE TEEN ABLE TOERS, YOU HAVE GOT FEWER RULES THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE, LIKE, NEVER GET IN A CAR WITH SOMEBODY TWHOZE BEEN DRINKING. THAT'S A NON-NEGOTIABLE RULE. BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS. SO... SO YOU WANT TO GET THE RULES STRAIGHT. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT I RECOMMENDED IS GET TO KNOW YOUR KIDS' FRIENDS PARENT. BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN, THEN YOU CAN WORK TOGETHER. YOU SEE? AND YOU CAN... PHONE UP AND SAY, WELL, WHICH FRIEND-OF-YOURS ARE DOING IT. PHONE UP THE PARENT AND SAY, YOU KNOW, I'M JAMIE'S MOM.

Mary says YOU KNOW WHAT? AT A CERTAIN ABLE TO THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. YOUR KID. THEY'RE A TEENAGER, THEY WOULD BE MOTHER FIDE IF YOU DID THAT. YOU KNOW, IT'S EASIER WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG... MORTIFIED IF YOU DID THAT. IT'S EASIER WHEN THEY'RE YOUNG. BECAUSE YOU PICK UP THE CHILD AND GOING TO PARTY AND THAT BUT THEN AT A CERTAIN POINT, YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE PARENT ARE.

Kathy says YOU CAN STILL DO IT. NUMBER ONE. THE HOUSE IS WHERE THE KIDS ARE COMFORTABLE, THEY'LL COME TO YOUR PLACE. BECAUSE THEY'RE ALWAYS ONE OR TWO PLACES... PLACES WHERE THE KIDS HANG OUT. THE PLACE THAT IT TAKES FOR YOU TO BE THE PLACE IS THEY'RE WELCOME AND THEY CAN LISTEN TO THEIR OWN MUSIC AND ALWAYS LOTS OF SNACKS. WHERE YOU DON'T, YOU DON'T SIT THERE TRYING TO JOIN THEM, BEING A, YOU KNOW, A MIDDLE AGED TEENAGER. WHICH LOOKS REALLY DUMB. UM, ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU DO DROP IN FROM TIME TO TIME JUST TO KIND OF MONITOR WHAT'S HAPPENING AND THE WAY DO YOU THAT IS BY BRINGING MORE FOOD. YOU ALWAYS... YOU'RE ALWAYS WELCOME IF YOU BRING MORE FOOD. THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS.

Mary says YOU GOT IT DOWN, BOY.

Kathy says YOU KNOW? BUT THE BOTTOM LINE YOU IS NEED TO LOOK AT YOUR CHILD AND SAY, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE THE RULES IN OUR HOUSE. IT'S TOO BAD IF YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE. IF YOU'RE REALLY HEARING THAT AT LO, MAYBE ASSESS AND TALK TO FRIEND AND MAYBE HE SEE IF YOU'RE TREATING YOUR 15-YEAR-OLD AS IF HE'S 12. SOMETIMES THE KID HAVE THE POINT TO MAKE. I MEAN, THEY'RE STILL OUR BABIES. YOU KNOW? 6 FOOT TALL WITH HIS VOICE CHANGING, HE'S STILL MY BABY, YOU KNOW?

Mary says WOULD WE TEND TO KNOW THIS... TO DO THIS MORE WITH THE FIRST BORN. OR THE LAST BORN? IS THERE A TENDENCY TO DO MORE OVER PROTECTING WITH A CERTAIN...

Kathy says IT... IT REALLY DEPEND. I THINK THAT WE DO... ARE ARE MORE LIKELY TO KEEP OUR YOUNGEST THE BABY. BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BABY OF THE FAMILY.

Mary says RIGHT. RIGHT. YES.

Kathy says YOU KNOW? BUT WITH OUR OLDEST, IT'S HARDER TO FIGURE OUT WHEN TO LET THEM GO. SO... SO, YOU KNOW...

Mary says LET ME ASK YOU THIS. LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF KIDS. THREE KIDS, WHATEVER. UM, DO YOU THINK THAT... THAT YOU CAN HAVE DIFFERENT RULES TO ARE... FOR EACH CHILD? BECAUSE YOU GET THAT WELL, THAT'S NOT FAIR. RIGHT?

Kathy says THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME BOTTOM LINE RULES. AND CERTAINLY RULES VARIOUS BY AGE. BECAUSE DIFFERENT AGE KIDS NEED DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF SLEEP.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT GIRL AND BOY?

Kathy says YOU KNOW, THAT'S A DICEY ONE. I HAVE... I HAVE A SON AND A DAUGHTER. WHAT I REMEMBER THE POINT AT WHICH THAT... THAT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS, IT WAS OUR DAUGHTER CAME TO US AND SAID, IT'S NOT FAIR. SHE SAID, WHEN I'M COMING HOME AT NIGHT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE MUCH PICKIER THAN WHEN MY BROTHER'S COMING... COMING HOME AT NIGHT. I HAD TO LOOK AT HER AND SAY, YOU'RE RIGHT. IT'S NOT FAIR. WE LIVE IN THE CITY. IT'S LIFE. YOU ARE FEMALE. I SAID, ON THE OTHER HAND, WE WILL EN CURRENTLY AND HELP YOU TO GET YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BECAUSE ONCE YOU CAN DRIVE YOURSELF, THEN YOU'LL BE SAFER. AND SHE SAID, WELL, FAIR ENOUGH. YOU KNOW? BUT WE WOULD DO THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD PICK HER UP AT THE BUS STOP AND PARK AROUND THE CORNER SO... SO, SO SHE COULD GET OFF THE OFF AND HER FRIEND WOULDN'T SEE US THERE AND SHE... IF SHE WANTED TO TELL THEM WE WERE THERE, FINE. IF SHE DIDN'T, FINE SO YOU PROTECT THEM, YOU PROTECT THEIR SORT OF IMAGE WITH THE ORCHIDS. BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO PROTECT THEM AND KEEP THEM SAFE. SO... SO IT'S... IT'S A LINE. IT'S TOUGH. BUT WE ALSO HAD BABY SITTERS WHEN MY KIDS WERE LITTLE AND THEY WERE TWO TEENAGE GIRLS ABOUT 18 MONTH APART IN AGE. YOUNGER ONE WAS ALLOWED TO BABY SIT UNTIL MIDNIGHT ON SCHOOL NIGHTS AND THE OLDER ONE HAD TO BE HOME AT 10. IT'S BECAUSE THE YOUNGER ONE NEEDED LESS SLEEP... AND THE MOTHER OF THESE TWO GIRLS SAID TO ME, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO POINT IN ME SENDING THE OLDER ONE TO YOU BECAUSE SHE NEEDS THE SLEEP AND WE CAN'T... SHE AGREES WITH US. SHE'S TIRED AT 10 KHK. THE OTHER ONE IS UP UNTIL MIDNIGHT ANYWAYS, AND MAY BE AT YOUR PLACE. I THOUGHT THAT WAS VERY PRACTICAL AND THAT JUST MET THE NEEDS OF EACH OF THE KIDS. GIRLS RESPECTED THAT. BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT ABOUT THEMSELVES.

Mary says HMM. VERY INTERESTING. VERY INTERESTING LE LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL HERE. J O OYCE IS ON THE LINE FROM AYAX. HI.

The caller says MY HE QUESTION IS THAT I HAVE AN 11-YEAR-OLD GIRL TWINS. UM, AND THE SIBLING RIVALRY I FEEL IS, YOU KNOW, RIGHT OUT OF HAND. UM, AND IT'S... THEY SCREAM AT EACH OTHER AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS. UM, AND SOMETIMES IT... IT DOES GET PHYSICAL. AND THEY... THEY KNOW THAT... THAT IT IRRITATES, UM, THE TWO OF US. IMMENSELY... AND, UM, AND I MEAN, THEY CAN DO THIS IN PUBLIC AS WELL. UM, AND WE TRIED ANYTHING. EVERYTHING. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

(LAUGHING)

Kathy says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IN THE HOUSE, YOU HAVE TO MAKE RULES ABOUT, ABOUT, UM, ABOUT NO HITTING. UM, NOBODY HITS ANYBODY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. AND IF YOU'VE GOT THAT RULE, THEN YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE... DON'T EVEN HAVE TO GET INVOLVED IN WHO DID WHAT TO WHOM. THAT'S NOT ON THE TABLE N OUR HOUSE, NOBODY HITS ANYBODY. AND SO IF YOU'RE HURTING EACH OTHER, YOU BE NEED TO BE IN SEPARATE SPACES. FINE. DON'T SEND THEM TO PLACES. JUST SAY, FINE, TWO SEPARATE PLACES TO BE IN UNTIL YOU CAN BE TOGETHER WITHOUT HITTING EACH OTHER. THAT WORKS REALLY WELL.

Mary says REALLY? THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO FIGURE OUT WHEN THEY WON'T HIT EACH OTHER? AND GET BACK TOGETHER AND START SLUGGING EACH OTHER AGAIN?

Kathy says PROBABLY NOT.

Mary says NO?

Kathy says YOU YOU NEED TO UNTHAT PART OF WHAT THEY'RE... WHAT IS A IS GOING ON HERE IS THAT THEY'RE DOING IT TO INVOLVE YOU, YOU SEE? BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT GETS THE PARENT GOING. AND SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS GET PAST THE FIGHTING. AND... AND JUST HAVE RULES ABOUT, ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOURS. AND THAT'S... THAT SEPARATES IT ALL OUT. THEN WHAT WE'VE GOT IS A SITUATION WHERE, WHERE KIDS ARE LEARNING, IT'S NEVER OKAY TO YELL AT SOMEBODY. IT'S NEVER OKAY TO HIT SOMEBODY. BUT THE OTHER THING THAT I WOULD RECOMMEND IF THEY'RE NOT DOING IT NOW IS THAT... IS THAT EACH OF THOSE GIRLS HAVE SOME ACTIVITY THAT THEY DO SEPARATE FROM EACH OTHER. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, THAT THEY'RE NOT IN THE SAME CLASS AT SCHOOL, THE SAME CLASSROOM, UM, AND THAT THEY ALSO IN THE HOUSE HAVE SOMETHING THAT... THAT THEY DO THAT IS SPECIAL. I MEAN IT, CAN BE SOMETHING LIKE WHENEVER WE HAVE A SPECIAL DINNER ONE KIDS ALWAYS MAKES THE CAESAR SALAD AND ONE KID ALWAYS BAKES A PIE. THE THING IS THAT THEY NEED SOME THINGS THAT... THAT THEY CAN SAY THAT THIS IS WHAT I BRING TO THE FAMILY. IT WORKS WELL WITH ALL KIDS. BUT MORE IMPORTANT WHEN YOU HAVE TWO THE SAME AGE TRYING TO BUILD SEPARATE IDENTITIES. SO THOSE THINGS WILL PROBABLY HELP A LOT.

Mary says OKAY. ANOTHER CALL HERE. ON THE LINE FROM TORONTO. HI.

The caller says HI. I HAVE A 5-YEAR-OLD SON. AND, UM, AND MY SON IS... IS A LITTLE BIT SENSITIVE.

Kathy says UH-HUH.

The caller says AND, UM, AND HE'S... HE THINKS LIKE, HE HAS FIGURED OUT THAT WHEN I DID... WHEN HE GOES TO SCHOOL OR ANYTHING, HE WANTS EVERYONE, UM, OR IF EVEN SOMEONE COME TO O OUR HOUSE, HE WANT EVERYONE TO PLAY WITH HIM AND HE EXPECTS EVERYONE WILL LIKE HIM. BUT IN REALITY, WE TELL HIM OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THAT... THAT IF YOU GO TO SCHOOL THERE'S 20 CHILDREN, YOU'LL BE FRIENDS WITH MAYBE FIVE CHILDREN AND THAT'S OKAY. THAT'S OKAY. IF YOU YOU... IF YOU, YOU KNOW, IT... IT IS NOT THAT EVERYONE WILL COME TO YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU. SO... SO, YOU KNOW, SO... SO... AND WE KEEP ON TELLING HIM OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THAT'S HIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HIS... HE THINKS THAT EVERYBODY WILL BE NICE WITH HIM AND WILL PLAY WITH HIM. AND...

Mary says LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. MAKING FRIENDS AND...

Kathy says THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT... IS THAT SHE'S DOING THE RIGHT THING. UM, SHE'S NOT BECOMING... SHE'S NOT GETTING SUCKED INTO... INTO SORT OF WORRYING ABOUT HIM MEETING, YOU KNOW, SHE KNOWS THAT... THAT HIS EXPECTATIONS ARE... ARE UNREALISTIC. SHE'S REALLY JUST GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP REASSURING HIM THAT IF HE'S GOT ONE GOOD FRIEND OR TWO GOOD FRIEND IN KINDER GARTEN, THAT'S FINE? YOU KNOW? IF SHE JUST KEEPS REASSURING HIM THAT HE'S OKAY, HE'S GOING TO LEARN THAT THAT'S THE REALITY SO MANY... SO THAT'S ACTUALLY DOING THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT THING. UM, SOME KIDS ARE THE TYPE OF KIDS WHO HAVE ONE OR TWO VERY CLOSE FRIEND. AND SOME KIDS ARE KIDS WHO ARE POPULAR WITH EVERYBODY. NEITHER IS WE ARE OR... NEITHER IS BETTER OR WORSE THAN THE OTHER T HAS TO DO WITH PERSONALITY STYLES. BUT, YOU KNOW, BUT TOO EXPECT THAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO LIKE YOU, IS UNREALISTIC SO MOM IS DOING THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT THING. SHE'S JUST, SHE'S BEING REALIST REALISTIC WITH HIM. STILL, YOU KNOW, STILL YOU COULD TELL FROM HER VOICE THAT THAT... THAT SHE'S CARRYING. NOT NASTY ABOUT IT. BUT SHE'S CLEAR L HAVE TO KEEP SAYING IT. BECAUSE IT WILL TAKE HIM A WHILE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

Mary says WHERE DO PARENT START WHEN THEY FEEL THEIR CHILD HAS NO FRIENDS?

Kathy says WHAT THEY DO IS TALK TO THE FREE SCHOOL TEACHER AND THE CHILD CARE PROVIDE AND ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER. BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WITH YOUR KIDS IN SOCIAL SETTINGS. AND... AND TALK TO THEM. SAY, WE'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS. WHAT ARE YOU SEEING? BECAUSE YOU MAY FIND OUT THAT... THAT, IN FACT, EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE WHEN HE'S AT SCHOOL. YOU KNOW? OR YOU MAY FIND OUT FROM YOUR TEACHER THAT... THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT? WHAT WE'RE NOTICEING IS THAT LITTLE ROGER REALLY GETS ALONG WELL WITH JIMMY. AND SO THEN YOU CAN, YOU CAN TRY TO GET TO KNOW JIMMY'S PARENT AND STARTING ARRANGING FOR THOSE TWO KIDS TO HAVE TIME TOGETHER. THAT'S ONE WAY TO GO. THE OTHER IS TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR CHILD'S INTERESTS ARE INTERESTS... CHILD'S INTERESTS ARE. AND SEE IF THERE'S AN EXTRA CURRICULAR ACTIVITY OR SPORT. SOMEWHERE WHEN A CHILD HAS SO MUCH FUN THAT THEY'RE A PART OF THE GROUP. THOSE ARE SOME WAYS TO ADDRESS THAT.

Mary says NOW AN E-MAIL...

Text on screen reads "I have started to see changes in my son, 14, who is in grade 9. He has begun to skip class and talk back to teachers. He didn't do this before and I'm starting to get worried he might get worse. How do I help him go in the right direction? Vicky."

Kathy says YEAH, THAT'S A TOUGH ONE. BECAUSE IF... BECAUSE IT'S A CHANGE. YOU KNOW? I MEAN, THAT'S THE ISSUE THERE. IS THIS IS A CHANGE. AND THAT'S ANOTHER THING. AND AT THIS POINT, AND I WOULD BE GO TO THE SCHOOL QUICKLY. TALK TO THE TEACHERS AND THE GUIDANCE COUNSELLOR. FIND O OUT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING. AND I WOULD PROBABLY WANT TO GET SOME COUNSELLING FOR THIS BOY RIGHT AWAY. BEFORE THIS GETS OUT OF HAND. BECAUSE, BECAUSE LIKE THE OTHER OTHER... LIKE THE AUNT THAT PHONED, WE NEED TO FINDS OUT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH HIM? WHY THIS CHANGE? PART OF IT COULD BE PUBERTY.

Mary says GRADE 9.

Kathy says BUT THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE TONE THAT HAVE E-MAIL THAT SAYS THAT THIS IS REALLY QUITE A SHIFT. SO... SO I WOULD WANT TO SEE THEM DEAL WITH IT RIGHT AWAY. BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND.

Mary says WHAT... WITH TEENAGE YEARS, IT'S SO HARD, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? BECAUSE OF PUBERTY THAT JUST THROWS THE KIDS INTO A LOOP. IT'S HARDS TO... HARD TO SORT THINGS OUT. WHAT IS BAD OR UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR? OR THIS TERRIBLE MOODINESS FROM BEING A TEENAGE SENIOR.

Kathy says I'M GOING TO RECOMMEND ANOTHER BOOK SO MANY I'M GOING TO DRIVE EVERYBODY CRAZY. BECAUSE THESE AREN'T MY BOOKS. BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF STUFF ABOUT TEENS IN MY BOOK. I HAVE SOME. THERE IS A BRAND NEW BOOK OUT. IT'S CANADIAN. AND IT'S CALLED "RAGE, REBELLION AND RUDENESS." AND PARENTING TEENAGERS IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM. BUT THAT'S A... "RAGE AND REBELLION AND RUDENESS." VERY EASY TO REMEMBER. THE AUTHOR IS SCOTT WOODING. AGAIN, UM, THERE'S INFORMATION ON MY WEBSITE ABOUT IT. BUT THAT'S A FABULOUS BOOK FOR PARENT OF TEENS. AND IT'S IN PAPER BOOK OF IT'S NEW AND IT'S CANADIAN.

Mary says ALL RIGHT. UM, THE FAMILY DINNER. I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY FAMILY I KNOW WHO GET STRESSED OUT OF TRYING TO GET EVERYBODY TOGETHER. FOR DINNER.

Kathy says YEAH.

Mary says AND I KNOW, YOU KNOW, EXPERTS I'VE HAD ON THE SHOW THEY SAY, WELL, THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT TIME AND IT'S SPECIAL AND YOU SHOULD TRY TO SIT DOWN TOGETHER IF YOU CAN. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE FAMILY DINNER?

Kathy says I LOVE FAMILY DINNERS.

Mary says WE ALL LOVE THEM.

Kathy says I'M ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE...

Mary says BUT CAN WE DO THEM?

Kathy says THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF THING F WE WANT TO HAVE FAMILY DINNERS, WE NEED TO BE SCHEDULING THEM AHEAD OF TIME. AND WE NEED TO HAVE THE EXPECTATION. I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE SAYING, OKAY IT'S REALLY HARD TO GET EVERYBODY TOGETHER.

Mary says YOU KNOW, CLUBS, LESSONS, WORKING LATE AND... AND BLAH, BLAH.

Kathy says SEE, IF BEFORE YOU GET THIS SEASON'S EXTRA CURRICULAR ACTIVITIES IN PLACE, YOU ALSO HAVE TO SAY TO YOUR KIDS, NOW, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE DINNER TOGETHER EVERY SUNDAY AND... AND SOMETHING ELSE. YOU KNOW? AND SO... SO WE NEED TO WRITE THAT INTO YOUR SCHEDULES. AND, OH, GEE, WELL, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE... TO HAVE TO WAIT AND DO THAT ACTIVITY NEXT TERM. YOU KNOW? THE OTHER THING IS THAT I... I REALLY BELIEVE THAT... THAT KIDS ARE GETTING INVOLVED IN TOO MANY ACTIVITY. AND... AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT... THAT ONE TEAM SPORT AND ONE ACTIVITY IS MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR ANY CHILD.

Mary says ONE TEAM SPORT OR SOMETHING... LIKE MUSIC OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

Kathy says SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THAT'S A LOT. AND THEY CAN WAIT TO DO THE REST. AND IT'S NOT A BAD THING TO HAVE HAVE TO MAKE CHOICES. AND IT'S NOT BAD THING TO... TO PLAY SOCCER NOW AND PLAY BASEBALL IN THE SPRING. THIS IS NOT BAD. YOU KNOW? OUR KIDS ARE GETTING SO OVER SCHEDULED. THEY NOT ONLY DO... DON'T HAVE TIME FOR FAMILY DINNER, THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TODAY DREAM. THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ. THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO RELAX. WE'RE SEEING KIDS THAT ARE TIRED AND STRESSED OUT. THAT IS NONSENSE. SHOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE IN OUR SOCIETY.

Mary says WE ARE SEEING A LOT MORE OF KIDS COMING IN WITH STRESS PROBLEM, AREN'T WE? STOMACH ACHES AND HEADACHES AND ALL KIND OF THINGS.

Kathy says THEY HAVE TOO MUCH ON THEIR PLATE. WHAT'S THAT ABOUT? YOU KNOW? WE NEED TO... SOME THINGS CAN WAIT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO START POTTERY WHEN YOU'RE 6. YOUR LIFE WON'T END. YOU KNOW?

Mary says YEAH, RIGHT.

Kathy says SOME THINGS, SOME THINGS YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU'RE AN DRLT TO START. IT'S NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

Mary says ADULT EDUCATION, CONTINUES FOREVER.

Kathy says ABSOLUTELY.

Mary says OKAY. MANNER. HOW DO YOU FEEL WE'RE DOING IN THE MANNERS DEPARTMENT?

Kathy says NOT WELL AT ALL. UM, AND THAT'S ANOTHER... THAT'S ANOTHER ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S BEEN EATING AT ME FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS. WE, FOR PART OF IT IS THAT WE SEE THESE RUDE PR... PR... PRECOCIOUS CHILDREN ON TV.

Mary says EVEN IN WALT DISNEY MOVIES.

Kathy says AND WE TEND TO THINK IT'S THE NORM. IT ISN'T. I DON'T EXPECT LITTLE GIRLS TO WEAR WHITE GLOVES THE WAY I WAS EXPECTED TO DO. BUT I DO THINK THAT WE NEED AGAIN, MODELING, DEMANDING, EXPECTING OUR CHILDREN TO HAVE GOOD MANNER SO FIRST THING IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE THEM. IF YOU ONLY EXPECT YOUR KIDS TO SAY PLEASE AND THANK YOU WHEN YOU'RE OUT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO. THEY WON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. IF THEY'RE NOT BEING ASKED TO DO IT AT HOME. IF THEY'RE BEING ASKED TO DO IT AT HOME AND YOU DON'T DO IT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT AGAIN, BECAUSE, THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT YOU AND SAY, YOU DEPONENT HAVE TO SAY PLEASE AND THANK YOU. WHY SHOULD I? SO IT'S VERY SIMPLE. WE REALLY DO, AND I DO HAVE A LOT OF STUFF ON THAT.

Mary says ALL OF LOT.

Kathy says BECAUSE, BECAUSE...

Mary says TELEPHONE MANNER. ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

Kathy says BECAUSE I THINK... BECAUSE I REALLY THINK IT'S DOING OUR CHILDREN A DISSERVICE. HOW ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO... TO GROW UP, GO IN FOR JOB INTERVIEWS AND... AND MEET WITH, WITH POTENTIAL, YOU KNOW, SENIOR PEOPLE, UM, AND... AND NETWORK AT NETWORKING IF THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE BASIC MANNERS? IF HE THEY DENT KNOW...

Mary says MEETING UP WITH OTHER PEOPLE, EVEN. JUST GOING OUT.

Kathy says EXACTLY. A LOT OF THEM DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHAKE HAND, YOU KNOW? A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO SHAKE HAND. I'VE HAD A LOT OF BAD HANDSHAKES. YOU KNOW? I MEAN, I... I TRY NOT TO DO T BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT HOW SOMEBODY SHAKES MY HAND, RIGHT AWAY I... I CREATE AN IMPRESSION. I MEAN, IT'S... YOU KNOW, LIKE IT OR NOT. IT'S ALSO FOR KIDS, AN EASY WAY...

Mary says WE HAVE TO GO. SORRY. WE'RE OUT OF TIME. I KNOW, WE COULD GO ON. BUT WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN.

Kathy says THERE'S AN EVENT.

Mary says I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT. KATHY LYNN, FIRST OF ALL, SHE'S A PARENTSING EXPERT. RADIO HOST AND THE AUTHOR OF "WHO'S IN CHARGE ANYWAY? HOW PARENTS CAN TEACH CHILDREN HOW TO DO THE RIGHT THING." PUBLISHED BY WHITE CAP BOOKS AND CHECK OUT THE PARENTING TODAY WEB SITE AT...

A caption reads "parentingtoday.ca."
Then, a slate reads "Kathy Lynn. Mitchell Field Community Centre. 416-410-2667 extension 1."

Mary says THE WINNERS OF THE BOOK... THREE WINNER. CONGRATULATIONS. KATHY LYNN IS SPEAKING TONIGHT. IN WILLOWDALE. AND IF YOU SHARE CHILD REARING RESPONSIBILITIES WITH YOUR OWN PARENTS, YOU MIGHT FREQUENTLY ASK YOURSELF, WELL, WHO'S REALLY IN CHARGE HERE? PLANET PARENT TOOK A LOOK AT ONE MULTI-GENERATIONAL HOUSEHOLD FOR A REALITY CHECK ON KEEPING IT ALL IN THE FAMILY.

A clip plays in which a woman stands in a kitchen as other people stand in the background.
A caption reads "Christine Diakos. Mom."

Christine, in her thirties, with wavy blond hair, says THIS IS MY FAMILY. AND WE AIL LIVE TOGETHER. NOW, THERE ARE PLAN OF ADVANTAGE TO LIVING WITH MY MOM. THERE'S A LOT OF BUILT IN BABYSITTING OPPORTUNITY.

As she leaves the house, Christine says BYE.

Her mother, an elderly woman with curly white hair, holds a toddler girl and waves as she says BYE!

Christine says HEY. I GET TO ENJOY HER COOKING A COUPLE OF TIMES A WEEK. MMM. YUMMY. AND SHE TAKES CARE OF ME WHEN I'M FEELING UNDER THE WEATHER.

As her mother tucks her in bed, Christine says THANKS, MOM. I DON'T FEEL SO GOOD. COZY.

Christine says IN FACT, LIVING WITH MY MOM IS PRETTY FABULOUS. EXCEPT FOR ONE MAJOR PROBLEM: WE DON'T ALWAYS SEE EYE-TO-EYE WHEN IT COME TO THE REAL BOSS OF THE HOUSE... 3-YEAR-OLD ISABELLA. MY AUTHORITY IS UNDER MINED ALMOST EVERY DAY BY YAH-YAH. THAT'S GREEK FOR GRANDMA.

In the kitchen, Isabella says CHOCOLATE...

Christine says AH, NO!

Yaya hands Isabella a piece of chocolate.

Christine says NOW, IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS YAH-YAH CAVING INTO ISABELLE'S DEMAND FOR ONE MORE CHOCOLATE. OR WHAT ISABELLE AND I HAVE A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT BED TIME...

She approaches her daughter and says ISABELLA, TIME FOR BED...

Isabella says NO!

Mary says YOU CAN BET THE NEXT LINE IS GOING TO THE GRANDMA. GRANDMA WILL SPEND 1 A MINUTES WITH HER DELAYING BED TIME WON AGAIN.

Isabella rushes over to Yaya and says CAN WE PLAY HIDE AND SEEK?

Yaya says HE YES, WE CAN.

Christine says AND THEN THE SUBTLE AND CONSTANT QUESTIONING OF MY PARENTSING SKILLS.

A montage of clips show the family in different ituations.

Yaya says I BET YOU, YOU SHOULD WEAR A HAT TODAY. IT'S COLD OUT.
IS THAT ALL SHE'S GOING TO EAT?

Christine says WHETHER WE LIVE WITH MY MOM O OR MY MOM LIVES WITH US, I'M QUICKLY LEARNING THAT THE BENEFITS OF LIVING TOGETHER FAR OUTWEIGH THE NEGATIVES. SHE GETS LOTS OF LOVE. PLUS, MY DAUGHTER IS LEARNING TO RESPECT AND APPRECIATE YAH-YAH'S GENERATION SO MANY IF ALL OF THIS MEANS THAT ISABELLA GETS AN EXTRA TREAT NOW AND AGAIN AND I MIGHT HAVE A SPOILED CHILD TO CONTEND WITH A FEW YEARS, I CAN LIVE WITH THAT. AND I HOPE MY MOM CAN, TOO.

The clip ends.

Mary says THAT'S A SEGMENT FROM PLANET PARENT, CAN I... WHICH CAN BE SEEN HERE ON TVO EVERY WEDNESDAY NIGHT AT 7:30.

Music plays as an animated slate reads "More to Education."

Mary says SKIPPING CLASS. IT'S SOMETHING YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT OF AS FUN WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGEER. BUT FOR SOME STUDENTS, IT'S AN ACT THAT... THAT CAN GET OUT OF HAND. CHRONIC TRUANCY IS A PROBLEM THAT LEADS TO DROPPING O OUT. IN THIS ZERO TOLL RAN ATMOSPHERE, ONE ONTARIO SCHOOL BOARD HAS DECIDED TO TAKE TRU. ANT KIDS TO COURT AND JAIL S THIS A CRIMINAL ISSUE? BHEALZ THE BEST... WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THE TRUANT KIDS. HERE TO TALK WITH US IS THE SUPERINTENDENT OF INSTRUCTION WITH THE WATERLOO SCHOOL BOARD. WILIE LIEBERMAN IS HERE. THE PUBLISHER AND EDITOR OF "TEACH" MAGAZINE. AND A COLUMNIST...

Dawn is in her sixties, with long curly brown hair. She's wearing a spotted black jacket over a purple blouse.
Wili is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short dark hair. He's wearing a blue denim shirt.

Mary says THANK YOU FOR COMING IN, WILIE AND DAWN. HAS THIS CHRONIC TRUAN. Y... TRUANCY BEEN A GROWING PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "Dawn Paxton. Waterloo District School Board."

Dawn says IT HAS BEEN WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE NUMBERS IN TRUANCY, ABOUT... WE HAD 700. THIS PAST YEAR, 1 50 O YEAR AGO THAT WE LOOKED AT.

Mary says IN THE REGION OF WATERLOO.

Dawn says YES. 60,000 STUDENT.

Mary says THAT'S DOUBLE.

Dawn says DOUBLE.

Mary says UM, NOW YOUR BOARD HAS CHOSE TONE PROSECUTOR THESE STUDENT WHO... WHO ARE... CHOSEN TO PROSECUTE THESE STUDENT WHO ARE KRON WITH THIS PROBLEM?

Dawn says THAT'S RIGHT.

Mary says WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO GO THAT ROUTE?

Dawn says FOR MANY REASONS. ANY BOARD CAN DO BECAUSE IT'S ALL UNDER THE EDUCATION ACT. WE TRY MANY THINGS PRIOR TO TAKING THE STUDENT TO COURT. THEY'LL ENCOURAGE KIDS TO COME TO THE RESOURCE CENTRE F THE WRITING IS AN ISSUE, THEY'LL USE A SCRIBE. BEFORE WE GET TO LOOKING AT THE ATEN DAN, WE TRY TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN O ON BEHALF THAT HAVE STUDENT. BUT IF WE TRY TO... TRY TO MODIFY THE PROGRAM TO CHANGE SCHOOLS AND OFFER UP EXTRA SUPPORT AND THE STUDENT STILL DOESN'T COME AND THEY HAVE ATTENDANCE AND ATTITUDE TOWARDS SCHOOL, THEN WE HART... START TO, WHAT WE WOULD SAY, GET ENGAGED MORE DEEPLY AND GETTING ENGAGED MORE DEEPLY MEANS THEY'RE WORKING WITH AN ATTENDANCE COUNSELLOR CLOSER... CLOSELY. SO THE FAMILY. WE PROCEED TO CHARGE. PRIOR TO CHARGING STUDENT, WE HAVE SOMETHING THAT WE CALL A STUDENT PROGRAM REVIEW. OUR PROGRAM REVIEW ENTAILS MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY WHO HAVE A BACKGROUND WITH CHILDREN, TRUSTEES AND THE SPECIAL EDUCATION STAFF. WE ASK THE CHILD AND THAT PARENT TO COME INTO PROGRAM REVIEW. WE TALK ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES.

Mary says WHAT ARE THESE KIDS BEING CHARGED WITH?

Dawn says TRUANCY.

Mary says SO YOU CAN CHARGE A CHILD, AND THIS IS UNDER 16?

Dawn says BETWEEN 12-16.

Mary says BETWEEN 12-16 WITH TRU TRUANCY. LET ME ASK YOU A FEW FACT HERE. UM, WE TALK ABOUT TRUANCY. THIS MEANS, I GUESS WHAT? ABSI... ABSENTI-ISM. WITHOUT A NOTE.

Wili says I'M NOT SURE THE PARENT ARE WARE WHAT'S GOING ON NECESSARILY. BUT IT'S CHARACTERIZED BY 15 CONSECUTIVE DAYS OF BE A SENSE X THEN YOU'RE CONSIDERED TO BE TECHNICALLY TRUANT.

Mary says SO 15 DAYS.

Wili says RIGHT. THAT'S THE CUT OFF POINT.

Mary says THAT'S THE CUT OFF. NOW, EARLIER, YOU WERE SAYING, DAWN, AT 12-16 BEING THE AGE, BECAUSE AT 16, LEGALLY, RIGHT, YOU COULD DROP OUT OF SCHOOL. IT'S NOT AN ISSUE AFTER 16.

Wili says TECHNICALLY, NO, IT'S NOT AN ISSUE.

Mary says WHAT'S YOUR OPINION AS FAR AS THE OTHER MEASURES TAKEN ABOUT BEFORE, YOU KNOW, WHAT SOME CONSIDER THIS A DRASTIC MEASURE WHAT ABOUT OTHER MEASURES TAKEN? WHY ARE THEY NOT WORK IN.

The caption changes to "Wili Liberman. Education Columnist."

Wili says YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THAT PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL THAT PARTICULAR CHILD. WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THEM PERSONALLY? WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE HOUSEHOLD. WHAT... WHAT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEMS ARE BEFORE YOU CAN REALLY ADDRESS SOLUTIONS. I THINK THAT'S... THAT'S WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN. YOU I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, THOUGH, THAT IN THE CASE WHERE YOU'VE GOT A SITUATIONS LIKE IN THE WATERLOO, WHERE YOU'VE GOT SIGNIFICANT INCREASES WITH KIDS WHO ARE BEING TRUANTT... TRUANT. SO THIS ISN'T PARTICULAR TO WATERLOO. I THINK IT'S HAPPENING ACROSS THE PROVINCE. UNFORTUNATELY, I DON'T THINK THE RESOURCES ARE THERE TO DO THOSE KINDS OF ASSESSMENTS. WHERE YOU CAN TAKE A CHILD INDIVIDUALLY... INDIVIDUALLY AND DO A COMPREHENSIVE ASSESSMENT AND COME UP WITH A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN TO HELP SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Mary says I'M WONDERING, TOO, WHETHER THAT COMPREHENSIVE ASSESSMENT INCLUDES THE... THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WHY IS THIS CHILD DOING THIS? IT'S BEYOND AN EDUCATIONAL ISSUE S THIS A HOME ISSUE? A SOCIAL ISSUE? IS IT PERHAPS A LEARNING DISABILITY ISSUE?

Wili says THAT'S RIGHT. ABSOLUTELY.

Mary says HOW...

Wili says IT'S A... IT'S MANY FACTORS.

Mary says DO WE CAREFULLY LOOK INTO THOSE ISSUES?

Dawn says WE DO. WE DO A COMPLETE SOCIAL WORK ASSESSMENT. OUR SOCIAL WORKERS GO INTO THE HOME AND WORK WITH PARENTS. OFTEN, OFTEN IT'S AN ISSUE THAT WE NEED TO REFER TO AN OUTSIDE AGENCY. O OR GET A COUNSELLING SERVICE. IT'S MORE THAN JUST TRUEN C Y. WE TRY TO... TO, UM, I MAKE SURE THAT WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN POSSIBLY THINK OF IN TERM OF HELPING THAT STUDENTS GET BACK TO SCHOOL AND THERE ARE LOTS OF OPTIONS FOR STUDENT NOW. IN TERM OF TAKING EAR KIND OF CORES AND SELF DIRECTED AND ALTERNATIVE. THERE'S JUST MANY KIND OF OPTION SO MANY WE REALLY TRY HARD AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE GETTING SOME OPTION.

Mary says TAKE ME THROUGH THE PROCESS, THEN SO IF A CHILD DOES GET CHARGED AND HAS TO GO TO COURT...

Dawn says RIGHT.

Mary says YOU SAID IT FALLS UNDER THE EDUCATION ACT SO THAT... DOES THAT DETERMINE WHICH COURT THE CHILD GET TRIED IN.

Dawn says THAT'S RIGHT. THEY GO TO THE PROVINCIAL COURT. THAT'S USUALLY UNDER A JUSTICE OF THE PEACE. WE'VE HAD VERY, VERY GOOD EXPERIENCE WAS BOTH JUDGES AND JUSTICES OF THE PEACE. THEY'VE BEEN VERY SUPPORT TIFER. AS A MATTER OF FACT, TO DATE, WE HAVEN'T LOST A CASE THAT WE'VE TAKEN FORWARD. WE WORK CLOSELY WITH THEM AND PROBATION. BECAUSE OUR GOAL IS TO GET THE CHILD BACK TOO SCHOOL. OUR GOAL IS NOT IN DOING ANY KIND OF PUNISHMENT. SO...

Mary says MAYBE THAT IS PUNISHMENT FOR THE CHILD? THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL.

Dawn says SOMETIMES.

Wili says THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. THEY HAVE TO GO TO SCHOOL...

Mary says I'M BE I CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER, WHETHER... WHETHER, FOR, I DON'T KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN IT WOULD BE, THAT SCHOOL IS JUST NOT FOR THEM. AND SO BY CONSTANTLY TELLING THEM, YOU GOT TO GO BACK, YOU GOT TO GO BACK, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO BACK. MAYBE THEY'RE JUST NOT MEANT TO GO TO SCHOOL.

Wili says I THINK IT'S A VERY... WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE. IT'S PROBABLY IN THE ORDER OF ROUGHLY MAYBE 1 percent.

Dawn says I WOULD AGREE.

Wili says MAYBE EVEN LESS THAN THAT. SO THESE ARE, THESE ARE KIDS WHO REALLY, REALLY ARE STRUGGLING. AND... AND, UM, AND IT'S...

Mary says MAYBE THEY NEED TO BE MOTIVATED BY SOMETHING ELSE AND MAYBE SCHOOL ISN'T IT. THEY JUST CAN'T SIT IN THERE IN CLASS FOR A MULTITUDE OF REASONS.

Wili says EYE THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

Mary says BUT MAYBE NOW THIS A LEGAL ISSUE. BECAUSE THEY'RE REQUIRED TO GO TO SCHOOL S THAT IT?

Dawn says WON THEY'RE ON PROBATION, THEY MUST GO TO SCHOOL. SOMETIMES THE PARENT NEEDS HELP AND THE PROBATION OFFICER HELP THE FAMILY GET THAT CHILD TO SCHOOL. UM, BUT NOW WE HAVE MANY MORE OPTION INSIDE TERMS OF SITTING IN CLASS ALL DAY. AS YOU MENTIONED. WE CAN SAY TO KIDS, OKAY, WE WANT YOU TO TAKE THE FOLLOWING THREE CLASSES AND YOU CAN WORK HALFTIME SO MANY THERE ARE LOT OF OPTIONS NOW. IT'S NOT AS IF IT'S ONLY SCHOOL. AND YOU HAVE TO SIT IN SCHOOL ALL DAY LONG. WE DON'T DO THAT.

Mary says BUT THIS... IS IT LIKE A CO-OP DEAL?

Wili says IT COULD BE. CO-OP COULD BE PART OF THAT. UM, I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT I'VE SEEN, THOUGH; THAT CO-OP PROBABLY ISN'T OFFERED EARLY ENOUGH. AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL IT TENDS TO BE, UM, GRADE 12 OR, AND FORMERLY OAC WHEN KIDS DO... DO A CO-OP YEAR.

Mary says NOT AT 12?

Wili says WHY NOT.

Mary says SEND THAT KITED OUT TO... KID OUT TO WORK.

Wili says PUT THAT DOWN A LITTLE BIT TO EARLIER GRADES AND I THINK MAYBE IT MIGHT HAVE MORE OF AN IMPACT SO THOSE KIDS WOULD HAVE SOMETHING THAT WOULDN'T BE AS FRUSTRATING. SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN PUT THEIR MIND TO. AND THAT WOULD KEEP THEM IN SCHOOL. KEEP THEM INVOLVED IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM. SOMETHING... THOSE KIND OF THINGS THAT COULD BE VERY EFFECTIVE.

Mary says MAYBE EVEN IF THEY MADE A BIT OF MONEY...

Dawn says A LITTLE MONEY IS GOOD. A LOT OF MONEY ISN'T GOOD. THERE HAS CONTINUE A BALANCE BETWEEN MAKING A LITTLE BIT. BUT WON YOU START TO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY, YOU'RE THEN SEDUCED BY THE MONEY. WE SAY TO PARENTS, BE CAREFUL HERE. HOW MANY HOURS YOUR STUDENT IS WORKING. BECAUSE NUMBER ONE, THE KIRK I AM LUM IS VERY VIGOROUS AND NUMBER TWO, THEY CAN'T... THE CURRICULUM IS VERY VIGOROUS AND NUMBER TWO, THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE WORK LOAD AND BEING AT WORK.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT NON-TRADITIONAL WAYS OF LEARNING, SUCH AS THE INTERNET?

Dawn says THERE'S ALL KIND OF OPENINGS FOR THOSE THINGS. DISTANCE LEARNING AND E LEARNING AND THE IOC'S. JUST SO MANY OPENINGS TO BRING KIDS BACK INTO THE SCHOOL SYSTEM. WE HAVE A WONDERFUL WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR EMPLOYERS ALSO. AND... AND THEY'RE WILING TO LET THE KIDS WORK AND... AND GET ON THE COMPUTER AND TAKE SOME COURSES SO WE'RE STARTING TO BUILD IN ALL KIND OF OPENINGS FOR KIDS AM MAIN POINT IS LET'S GO TO SCHOOL. WE REALLY NEED TO DO THIS.

Mary says SO TELL ME, AT THIS POINT, HOW MANY CHILDREN HAVE YOU HD TO... HAVE YOU HAD TO PROSECUTE?

Dawn says UM, WE HAVE ABOUT 330 CASE YEAR. WHETHER IT'S 15... 30 DAYS AS YEAR. WHETHER IT'S 1500 CASE WE'RE LOOKING AT OR WHETHER 1200. WE'RE VERY SUCCESSFUL... FOR EXAMPLE TWHRX WE HAVE 1200 CASE THAT IS WE'RE LOOKING AT, 11 70 CASE... OF THOSE CASES WILL TURN AROUND. WE HAVE 30 LEFT THAT WE TRIED EVERYTHING WITH...

Mary says SO THE 11 70, THAT'S BEFORE YOU PROSECUTE.

Dawn says THEY'VE ALREADY TURNED THEMSELVES AROUND.

Mary says THEY TURNED AROUND THROUGH VARIOUS OTHER MEANS.

Wili says THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO THE BOARD BECAUSE OF CHRONIC PROBLEMS.

Mary says RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT.

Dawn says SO OUR SOCIAL WORKERS WORKED WITH THEM AND THE GUIDANCE COUNSELLORS AND ATTENDANCE COUNSELLORS WORK WITH... WORK WITH THEM AND THEY TURN THEMSELVES AROUND S AND THEY HAVE THE LAST 3 0. IT'S INTERESTING WHEN YOU GO TO PROSECUTE. SOMETIMES THE PARENT SAY, HELP ME OUT. WHAT IS TAKING YOU SO LONG.

Mary says SOME ARE AT THE WIT'S EN.

Dawn says YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO AND YOU'LL DO IT. HELP ME GET SOMEONE TO HELP ME GET MY CHILD TO SCHOOL. AND SOME SAY THAT I WATCHED THEM WALK THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR. WE SAY, UNFORTUNATELY THEY WENT RIGHT OUT THE BACK DOOR.

Mary says SO...

Dawn says YOU KNOW, THE PARENT REALLY OFTEN REQUEST THAT... THAT WE HELP THEM. IN TERMS OF A CHILD.

Mary says DO YOU HAVE SOME PARENTS WHO ARE TOTALLY OUT OF IT? THEY DON'T EVEN REALIZE HOW SERIOUS THE PROBLEM? IS AND MAYBE... MAYBE THEY DON'T EVEN CARE?

Dawn says TRULY, MARY, SOME PARENTS DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THEY COULD BE CHARGED. DIN REALIZE THAT THERE ARE ATTENDANCE ISSUES UNDER THE ACT THAT WE COULD FOLLOW THROUGH ON. SO THEY DIDN'T NOW ABOUT THAT.

Wili says THERE'S AN INTERESTING CASE, ACTUALLY, REPORTED WHERE, WHERE, UM, WHERE A GIRL WHO WAS NOT GOING TO SCHOOL AND TOLD THE MOTHER THAT SHY DIDN'T HAVE ANY MORNING CLASSES AND, UM, APPARENTLY SHE, SHE WAS SPENDING HER DAYS WORKING AS A PROSTITUTE. UM, AND FINALLY THE MOTHER FOUND OUT ABOUT IT... WHEN THE TEACHER CALLED TO REPORT THE FACT THAT SHE WASN'T SHOWING UP TO SCHOOL SO MANY YEAH, THAT'S EXTREME. NO QUESTION. BUT THERE ARE, BUT THERE ARE CASES WHERE, YOU KNOW, PARENTS MAY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. OR IT COULD BE PARENTS HAVE SIMPLY LOST CONTROL IN HAD A HOUSEHOLD. THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE, TOO.

Mary says NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS MEASURE? ABOUT FOR THOSE 30 KIDS, YOU PROSECUTE. AND... AND YOU SEND THEM OFF TO... TO... WELL IS IT JAIL? WHERE DO THEY GO?

Dawn says THEY GO TO A DETEN CENTRE. A CUSTODIAL GROUP HOME. NOT JAIL. NORMALLY PROBATION.

Mary says HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

Wili says I'M TORN. IT'S... IT'S A DIFFICULT ONE TO RESOLVE. AS PARENTS, OFTEN YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE YOUR CHILD IN THAT SITUATION, DON'T WANT TO SEE THEM GOING THROUGH A CUSTODIAL ENVIRONMENT. UM, HOWEVER, KIDS, I THINK EVEN AT A YOUNGER AGE, AT 12 AND 13 HAVE TO LEARN THAT THEY HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ANGLES AND I THINK THAT IF THERE'S BEEN A SINCERE EFFORT TO TRY AND TRY EVERY POSSIBLE OPTION, THAT... THEN, UM, THEN, UM, SOMETIME IT'S... IT'S REALLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY IS A SORT OF LAST RESORT. MY, MY WISH WOULD BE, IDEALLY, TO... TO, UM, TO PUT ALL OF THE RESOURCE INTO PREVENTION. RATHER THAN DEALING WITH IT...

Mary says ADDRESSING THE WHY FIRST.

Wili says ADDRESSING THE WHY. LOOK AT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM. SAY, CAN WE SOLVE IT? IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT DOON IN A'S SAYING IS THAT THEY MADE EVERY EFFORT TO DO THAT. THAT WOULD BE, I THINK, MY IDEAL WISH. FOR THAT TO HAPPEN FIRST. CERTAINLY.

Mary says YOU NOW, DAWN, YOU SAY THAT IT HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, RIGHT? I MEAN, WITH THESE 30, EVERY YEAR, I MEAN, HOW MANY OF THOSE KIDS ACTUALLY GET TURNED AROUND?

Dawn says UM, ABOUT A THIRD.

Mary says A THIRD.

Dawn says SO... SO ABOUT... WE END UP WITH ABOUT A THIRD SUCCESS RATE.

Mary says THEY GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

Dawn says THEY GO BACK TO SCHOOL. IT'S VERY, UM, INTIM P TIM DATING... INTIMIDATING GOING INTO COURT. YOU'RE EXPECTED TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF THE JUSTICE AND IT'S QUITE A POWERFUL SITUATION AND WHAT I HAVE NOTICED IS THAT THE JUSTICES SPEAK RIGHT TO THE KIDS. WHY AROUND YOU YOU IN SCHOOL? WHAT'S GOING ON? HOW CAN WE HELP? THEY REALLY GET INVOLVED. IT'S NOT AS IF THEY SIT THERE AND ARE NOT INVOLVED. HAD THEY NOT BEEN AS SUPPORTIVE AS THEY HAVE BEEN, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WOULD HAVE CONTINUE ON THIS ROUTE. BUT THEY'VE BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE. TAKING A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AND INTEREST FOR OUR STUDENT.

Mary says IT ALSO MAKES ME WONDZ PERFECT THIS METHOD IS SO SUCCESSFUL, WHY AROUND OTHER BOARDS ADOPTING IT?

Dawn says THAT SEEM TO BE THE QUESTION. UM, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL FOR US IS NUMBER ONE, OUR ATTENDANCE COUNSELLOR ARE INCREDIBLY DEDICATEED AND THE SCHOOLS REALLY DO COUNT O ON THEM FOR IDEAS OF TURNING KIDS AROUND WITH ATTENDANCE. SECOND THING IS THAT, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THE COURT SYSTEM HAS BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE OF US. IF WE FELL THAT WE WERE TAKING TIME FOR NOT BEING SUPPORTED BY THEM, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT OTHER METHODS. BUT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN LIKE THAT. IT'S GOT A LOT OF PRESS. GOT... GOT AT LOVE PRESS.

Mary says WHAT'S STOPPING OTHER BOARDS?

Wili says I DON'T THINK YOU'LL FIND NECESSARILY THAT SUPPORT IS UNIVERSAL ACROSS THE PROVINCE. WHERE CROWN ATTORNEYS ARE RELUCTANT TO GET INVOLVED AND RELUCTANT TO PROSECUTE. FEEL IT'S MORE OF A SOCIAL ISSUE. SOCIAL SERVICES TYPE OF ISSUE. RATHER THAN A... RATHER THAN A JUSTICE ISSUE.

Mary says IS IT GOING TO TAKE UP A LOT OF TIME AND RESOURCE?

Dawn says IT DOES.

Wili says SURE, THE BOARD. THE COURTS. UM, AND LAWYERS. GET INVOLVED. SO... SO YEAH, A LOT OF RESOURCES GETTING EATEN UP. SO I THINK THEIR INTEREST IS PROBABLY THAT IT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH REALLY AS SOCIAL ISSUE.

Mary says RIGHT AND... AND I FORGOT TO ASK YOU, EVEN, I MEAN, LET'S SAY THE KIDS DO END UP GOING TO THAT DETENTION CENTRE, DO THEY STILL GO TO SCHOOL THERE?

Dawn says THEY HAVE TO.

Mary says THEY NEVER GET OUT OF IT. YOU SEE. KIDS, IT DONE MATTER. IF... YOU NEVER GET OUT OF IT.

Wili says WON, WON THEY'RE 16, THAT... THAT IS SORT OF IT. THEY'RE ON THEIR OWN AND YOU HAVE NO CONTROL AND LEGALLY THEY CAN DROP OUT OF SCHOOL. AND... AND THAT'S AN UNFORTUNATE SITUATION.

Mary says RIGHT. BUT THERE'S NO FAST TRACKING OUT OF SCHOOL.

Dawn says THERE IS NOT. AND THERE SHOULDN'T BE. YOU KNOW? BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF STUDENT THAT COME BACK LATER, TOO AND THEY'RE SORRY THAT THEY WENT THROUGH THAT PERIOD OF TIME. AND THAT... THAT...

Mary says IF ONLY THEY HAD THAT 20-20 HINDSIGHT. THAT'S THE KEY, ISN'T IT?

Wili says THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES WITH... THAT DONNA MENTIONED THAT KIND OF SKUS THE DROPOUT RATE NUMBER S THAT DROPOUT RATE SEEMS HIGH. BUT WHAT IS NOT REALLY TRACT... TRACKED AS STRINGENTLY IS THE NUMBER THAT DIDN'T COME BACK. KIDS DROPOUT AND FIND IT FRUSTRATING. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DO WITH A... WITHOUT A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION AND IT'S LIMIT WHEN HAD A... WITH A HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION AND THEY SAY, OKAY, IT'S TIME TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

Mary says LATER ON THEY COULD SAY, WOW, THAT'S A DUMB THING. THAT WAS A MISTAKE THAT I MADE AND I WANT TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL. WHAT'S ON THEIR RECORD?

Dawn says WELL. THEY DO WHAT THEY'RE TOLD TO DO BY THE COURT... AGAIN, THEY HAVE A COMPLETED WHAT'S CALLED THEIR PROBATION PROBATIONARY TERM F THEY DON'T DO THAT, IT'S CALLED BREACHING. AND SO THEREFORE THEY WOULD HAVE A RECORD WITH A CANADIAN POLICE INFORMATION CENTRE.

Mary says THAT'S A CRIMINAL RECORD?

Dawn says IT CAN BE A CRIMINAL RECORD FOR THEM SO THEY REALLY NEED TO UNTHAT... THAT IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THE ORDERS THAT YOU WERE GIVEN, COULD YOU HAVE A RECORD WITH A CANADIAN POLICE INFORMATION CENTRE.

Mary says HMM. FINALLY, I WANT TO END OFF, CAN YOU GIVE SOME ADVICE TO PARENT? I MEAN WHAT... WHAT CAN THEY DO? ABOUT CHRONIC TRUANCY? ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN HELP THEM WITH?

Dawn says THERE'S A NUMBER OF STEPS. NUMBER ONE, I THINK THAT YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS SCHOOL IS REALLY IMPORTANT AS PARENT. IF YOU HAVE HIGH EXPECTINGS AND YOU... AND YOU EXPECT THAT YOUR CHILDREN WILL GO ON AND COMPLETE THEIR HIGH SCHOOL AND UNIVERSITY EDUCATION, THEY WILL. THAT'S NUMBER ONE. NUMBER TWO, REALLY WATCH WHO THEIR FRIEND ARE. ESPECIALLY YORE YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE DATING BOYS THAT ARE OLDER. AND THEY'RE NOT IN SCHOOL. YOU CAN BET YOUR DAUGHTER WOULD NOT BE IN SCHOOL, EITHER. SO WATCH WHO THE KIDS ARE WITH. TAKE AN INTEREST. TAKE A REAL INTEREST IN WHAT'S GOING ON. ASK THEM TO TEACH YOU ABOUT THE THINGS THEY LEARNED THAT DAY. AND MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHO THE CROWD IS. WHETHER OR NOT OTHER STUDENT ARE ARE... OR ORCHIDS IN THAT CROWD ARE NOT ATTENDING SCHOOL SO... SO JUST BE VERY AWARE OF THOSE THINGS. UM, AND... AND I... THINK IT'S THE ATTITUDE. I THINK IF PARENTS HAVE A GOOD ATTITUDES TOWARDS LEARNING AND SCHOOL, THE KIDS WILL HAVE A VERY GOOD ATTITUDE TOWARDS IT, TOO.

Mary says SORRY. ONE REALLY IMPORTANT THING THAT I FORGOT TO BRING UP. APPARENTLY, I GUESS A LOT OF THESE KIDS WHO... WHO HAVE CHRONIC TRUANCY AS A PROBLEM, THEY ACTUALLY DO HAVE THE ANT TO DO SCHOOL. DON'T THEY? IT'S NOT THAT THEY CAN'T DO IT A LOT OF THEM.

Dawn says IT'S AN INTERESTING MIXTURE. IT COULD BE A LEARNING DISABLE. IT COULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM. OR THEY COULD BE INCREDIBLY BRIGHT AND THEY'RE BORED. IT... IT BECOMES A GAME. THEY CALL IT BAGGING CLASSES. SO... SO, YOU KNOW BE IT'S A GAME THAT THEY'RE PLAYING SOMETIME. THESE KIDS CAN BE... CAN BE INCREDIBLY BRIGHT.

Wili says AGAIN AS YOU WERE MENTIONING. YOU REALLY HAVE TO FIND THAT HOOK FOR THOSE KIDS WHO ARE HAVING PROBLEMS. THERE IS SOMETHING THERE. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF COVERING T ONCE IT'S UNCOVERED, KIDS CAN REALLY TAKE OFF AND BLOSSOM. IT'S JUST THE PROCESS AND THE EFFORT THAT IT TAKES TO FIND WHAT IT IS. AND A LOT OF KIDS GET RESENTFUL AND SO THEY'RE REBELLIOUS AND DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH. YOU HAVE TO PENETRATE THAT AND FIND WHAT IT IS THERE THAT WILL MOTIVATE THEM. SOMETIMES IT'S JUST PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS... TO THEM.

Dawn says I AGREE.

Wili says SOMETIMES IT'S JUST PAYING ATTENTION.

Mary says GREAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN.

Wili says YOU'RE WELCOME.

Mary says DAWN PAKS SASKATOON IS THE SUPERINTENDENT OF INSTRUCTION WITH THE WATERLOO DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD AND WILIE LIBERMAN IS THE EDITOR OF THE "PARENT"... OF "TEACH" MAGAZINE and he's also More to Life's resident Education Columnist. Now, you can read Teach online at www.teachmag.com.

A picture shows the Teach magazine.

But that is it for our show today. Thank you for watching. And please join us each weekday, Monday to Friday, for More to Life at 1 o'clock.

Watch: Who's In Charge, Zero Tolerance (Oct 1/2003)