Transcript: Gardening: Martha Kumsa | Jun 24, 2003

(music plays)

A title appears inside the shape of a house: More to Life. Words spin against a red and orange background: Health, Family, Home, Money, Fitness, Life. Fast clips show images related to the previous concepts, such as a dollar bill, a wheat field, and strands of DNA.

In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: "More to life."

Then, Mary Ito sits in a studio with textured yellow walls and plants in the background.

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair and bangs. She's wearing a pale pink cardigan and blouse, and a silver necklace.

Mary says GOOD AFTERNOON. I AM MARY ITO. WELCOME TO MORE TO LIFE. LATER IN THE SHOW, ONE WOMAN STORY OF INJUSTICE AND FREEDOM. BUT FIRST, STOP WATCHING THE TV AND GET OUT OF YOUR GARDEN. YOU REALLY SHOULD HEAR WHAT MY NEXT GUEST HAS TO SAY BEFORE YOU RUN OUT TO DIG AND PLANT. MARK, CANADA'S BEST KNOWN GARDEN EXPERT AND HORT CULTURIST, ONTARIO GARDENING, BACK HERETO TAKE YOUR CALLS TODAY.

Mark is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He's wearing a white polo shirt.
A picture of his book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of Mark crouching outdoors surrounded by plants and flowers.

Mary continues IF YOU ARE WONDERING ABOUT PLANTS FOR SUN OR SHADE OR GARDEN DESIGN IDEA, HOW TO SEW SEEDS OR GROW THE BIGGEST TOMATOES ON YOUR BLOCK. GIVE US A CALL. THE NUMBER IS 416-484-2727. TOLL FREE.

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Mary continues WELCOME BACK, MARK. YOU KNOW, IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE THE LAST TIME YOU WERE ON, I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THAT WEEKEND, I HEARD THE BIG NEWS REPORT THAT YOU HAD SOLD ALL OF YOUR GARDEN CENTRES.

Mark says YES.

Mary says THAT IS A HUGE DEAL.

Mark says YEAH, IT WAS A HUGE DEAL.

Mary says I HAVE TO ASK YOU, THAT'S ONE OF YOUR BABIES, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN TOUGH.

The caption changes to "Mark Cullen. Gardening Expert."

Mark says IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT DECISION. MARY, YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND, THE GARDEN CENTRE WAS THE THIRD GENERATION TORONTO BUSINESS. IT WAS STARTED IN 1922 BY JOHN A WIELD AT THE BEACHS AND A LITTLE STORE FRONT WHERE HIS WIFE HAD A FLOWER SHOP ASK AT AND HE MET MY FATHER AND SOLD THE BUSINESS TO HIM 30 YEARS LATER. IT WAS ACTUALLY 1947 WHEN MY CAD DAD ACQUIRED IT. IT HAD A HISTORY AND A PEDIGREE AND, MAKING THE DECISION TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION WAS VERY DIFFICULT. IT TOOK TIME, TWO YEARS OF DISCUSSION REALLY. BUT WE KNEW, WE KNEW THAT IS BILL, THE PRESIDENT OF THE SHERIDAN NURSERYS KNEW THAT VERY EARLY ON IN THE DISCUSSION, THERE HAD TO BE A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER BECAUSE TWOT COMPANIES WERE RUNNING DOWN A PARALLEL PATHS AND GEOGRAPH WEALICALLY, LOCATIONS THAT COMPLIMENTED ONE ANOTHER. THEY TENDED TO DOMINATE IN THE WEST END, WE DOMINATED IN THE EAST BE. SO BRINGING THEM TOGETHER SEEMED LIKE A VERY NATURAL THING TO DO IN THE END. AND YOU STILL GET TO BE THE VOICE, RIGHT, FOR THEM. YOU ARE THE SPOKESPERSON.

Mary says THAT'S THE EXCITING PART FOR ME. I AM THE SPOKES PERSON.

Mark says WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR YOU THEN? A LOT OF STUFF. I GUESS IT DOES. WHAT WILL YOU CONCENTRATE ON. TALK MORE AND WORK LESS.

Mary says IS THAT RIGHT?

Mark says ALL THE FUN FOR YOU. THE DAY-TO-DAY CONCERNS OF RUNNING A 6 STORE RETAIL CHAIN TIKES TIME AND IT DEMANDS ATTENTION AND IT MEANS YOU GOT TO BE ON THE PHONE AND TO BE AT THE OFFICE AND GOING TO SPEND LESS TIME DOING THOSE THINGS, MORE TIME WITH MY FAMILY, REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

Mary says YOU HAVE FOUR KIDS.

Mark says I HAVE FOUR KIDS, YEAH. AND THEY ARE STILL FORTUNATELY YOUNG ENOUGH THAT I COULD GO HOME AND IT MIGHT MATTER TO THEM THAT I'M THERE. THEY HAVEN'T ALL FLOWN THE COOP QUITE YET.

Mary says THAT'S GREAT.

Mark says I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT AND LOOKING FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THE PEOPLE AT THE NURSERY TO SEE WHAT I CAN DO TO HELP ENHANCE THEIR BUSINESS. I AM STILL IN LOVE WITH THE BUSINESS. I ALWAYS LOVE RETAIL, I LOVE HIGH SERVICE BUSINESS, I LOVE THE WHOLE IDEA THAT WE PROVIDED TO THE PEOPLE AND NOW AT GREATER TO RONTY, THE GREATER SHERIDAN NURSERYS.

Mary says AND YOU HAVE A MISSION. YOU HAVE ALWAYS HAD THIS MIING. LET'S GET MORE PEOPLE OUT THERE GARDENING.

Mark says THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S MY MIINGZ MISSION. WHY YOU HAVE WRITTEN THE LATEST BOOK ABOUT GARDEN NOTHING ONTARIO. WHAT STRUCK ME, WE HAD TOURISM PEOPLE IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO AND THE ONTARIO TOURISM WOMAN WAS SAYING, HOW PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THE PROVINCE, DO NOT REALIZE HOW VAST IT IS. YOU KNOW FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH. SO, I GOT TO ASK YOU, HOW FAR NORTH IS IT POSSIBLE TO GARDEN IN ONTARIO?

Mary says WELL, ANYWHERE, YOU CAN GUARDEN ANYWHERE.

Mark says WHAT, THE FROZEN PART, UP NORTH.

Mary says THE PERMA FROST.

Mark says THEY DO GARDEN. THEY GARDEN WAY UP IN THE NORTHWEST TOR TORES, WAY NORTH OF WHERE ONTARIO EVEN EXTENDS, IT CAN BE DONE. IT'S TRICKY. BUT IT'S VERY GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE YOU HAVE, ON THE OP IS THE SIDE OF THAT SCALE, THE NIAGARA PENINSULA WHERE THEY GARDEN IN ZONE 7. NOW IF YOU LIVE IN VICTORIA AS MILD AS IT GETS IN CANADA, THAT'S THE MILDEST SPOT. ZONE 9. SO JUST TO PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE. ZONE 9 IN VICTORIA, ZONE 7 IN THE NIAGARA PENINSULA. THEY'RE GROWING BEAUTIFUL PEACHS AND GRAPES AND THEN YOU HAVE TORONTO ZONE 6. WHERE I AM AT UNIONVILLE, ZONE 5.

Mary says AND THEN YOU... UNIONVILLE IS A DIFFERENT ZONE FROM TORONTO?

Mark says YES. I KNEW YOU GUYS WERE DIFFERENT ALL ALONG.

Mary says WE ARE. WE ARE. NORTH OF HIGHWAY 7 IS ACTUALLY GENERALLY SPEAKING, NORTH OF HIGHWAY 7 IS A ZONE APART FROM DOWNTOWN TORONTO.

Mark says BECAUSE I LOOKED AT YOUR MAP AND I AM SURE. THAT NORTHERN AREA, IT IS LIKE 0 OR SOMETHING. 0 OR 1.

Mary says YOU CAN GET TO 2. LIKE IN ONTARIO, TO BE REASONABLE ABOUT THIS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE ACTUALLY LIVE.

Mark says RIGHT.

Mary says YOU COULD GO AS FAR NORTH AS... WHAT'S THE NORTHERN MOST PART OF ONTARIO, MOOSE FACTORY.

Mark says MOOSE FACTORY. BE A ZONE 2, YEAH OR SO. UP THERE AND THEN, WHICH IS MORE OR LESS... CALL IN, THE NORTHERN MOST POINT, PLEASE CALL IN AND LET US KNOW.

Mary says IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING. EDMONTON IS ZONE 2, TOO. YOU NL THE MOST PASSIONATE GARDERNERS ARE IN EDMONTON.

Mark says THEY ARE.

Mary says HOW DID YOU COME TO THAT DECISION?

Mark says TRAVELING THE QUNT REE. WELL, NUMBER 1...

Mary says THAT'S INTERESTING.

Mark says AND I GO THERE AND THE ENERGY AND THE ENTHUSIASM AND THE PASSION IS SO GREAT, YOU CAN FEEL IT. YOU CAN ALMOST TOUCH IT. I MIGHT SAY, THAT CALGARY COMES VERY CLOSE SECOND. THE LARGEST HORTICULT UR CLUB IN THE COUNTRY VEE IN CALGARY. 4500 MEMBERS IN THAT CLUB, IN A CITY THAT'S WHAT, MAYBE 800,000 PEOPLE. GIVE OR TAKE.

Mary says AND A GUESS I WOULD HAVE JUST... I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT MAYBE VICTORIA.

Mark says NO. WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THEY'RE NOT PASSIONATE, THEY ARE. BUT THEY DON'T COME TOGETHER THE SAME. WHEN I TALK ABOUT HORTICULT URAL CLUBS OR GARDEN CLUBS AND THE SOCIETIES THAT ARE TALKING ABOUT TO SOME DEGREE THE SOCIALIZING OF GARDENING. NOT JUST THE DOING. NOW THEY DO HAVE A LONG WINTER IN THE PRAIRIES, RIGHT. WE HAVE A LONG WINT NER ONTARIO, TOOCHLT OVER 600 ACTIVITY HORTICULT UR CLUBS IN ONTARIO.

Mary says 600?

Mark says YES, YES. AND THEY ARE... THEY ARE NOT ONLY ACTIVE BUT THEY'RE GETTING YOUNGER, TOO. SOME OF THEM ARE VERY DINAM SKPIK RUNNING SOME WONDERFUL FUND RAISERS, THEY'RE DOING GARDEN TOURS, THIS TIME OF YEAR, FINDING THEM RIGHT THROUGHOUT THE SUMMER IN THE EARLY FALL.

Mary says THAT'S VERY... THAT'S GREAT TO HEAR AND VERY ENCOURAGING THEY ARE GETTING YOUNGER. SO WHAT IS, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW THIS. WHAT WOULD BE THE BIGGEST AGE GROUP THAT'S COMING INTO THESE, THESE CLUBS. WHAT AGE GROUP IS THE NEW AGE GROUP THAT IT IS MIT HITTING?

Mark says MOSTLY WOMEN. MOSTLY WOMEN. AND THEY WOULD BE 35 YEARS, BY FAR THE MAJORITY. NOW THERE ARE A LOT IN THEIR 20'S. DON'T GET ME WRONG. A LOT IN THEIR 20'S THAT ARE MOVE NOTHING TO THE CLUBS BUT, BUT THE MASSIVE PEOPLE WOULD BE WOMEN 35 PLUS.

Mary says AND GENERALLY, AS FAR AS GARDENING IN ONTARIO, IS IT MOSTLY WOMEN WHO GARDEN OR MIXED? EQUAL?

Mark says WELL, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY GARDEN, THAT GET THEIR KNEES DIRT, TEND PREDOMINANTLY TO BE WOMEN. SEVEN PERCENT WOMEN. BUT, THERE ARE AREAS IN THE GARDEN THAT ARE STILL RESERVED FOR MEN, GENERALLY, THE LAWN. THAT IS STILL VERY MUCH A GUY THING.

Mary says OKAY. AND NEVER MIND THAT IT IS THE YEAR 2003.

Mark says IT'S A STILL GUY THING.

Mary says GUYS LIKE THEIR LAWNS. LAWNS AND BARBECUES.

Mark says LAWNS, BARBECUES AND TOMATOES,

Mary says TOMATOES?

Mark says YEAH. IS THAT RIGHT? MANYOR OUT THERE DOING THE TOMATOES. SNU WON'T FIND TOO MANY MEN REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT THE HERB GARDEN BUT A LOT THAT LOVE THEIR TOMATOES OR MAYBE A FEW VEGETABLES BUT TOMATOES ARE THE PRIMARY ATTRACTION. AND IF YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE COMPETITIVE NATURE OF GARDENING, YOU WOULD FIND THAT, YOU WOULD FIND MORE MEN TEND TO, TEND TO APPROACH GARDENING FROM A COMPETITIVE POIBT OF VIEW THAN WOMEN DO.

Mary says WOMEN ARE... THEY ENTER CONTESTS OR WHAT?

Mark says YEAH.

Mary says OR MY TOMATO IS BIGGER THAN YOURS, SORT OF THING.

Mark says MY TO MATE SO A BIGGER THAN YOURS AND A RED TOMATO BEFORE YOU DID. THAT IS A BIG DEAL.

Mary says THE GENDER POLITICS OF GARDENING, THIS IS GOOD. LET'S TAKE A CALL HERE. DOR IS IS ON THE LINE FROM HAMILTON. HI.

The caller says HELLO.

Mary says HOW IS YOUR GARDEN?

The caller says I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT A SHADY SPOT IN THE CORNER OF MY YARD. IT'S A HILL SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO CUT THE GRASS ON AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO PUT SOME SORT OF EASY CARE GROUND COVERING ON IT. DO YOU HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR THAT?

Mark says YOU SAID SHADY, DIDN'T YOU? OR DUH NOT?

The caller says SORRY.

Mark says SHADY?

The caller says YES, IT IS SHADY.

Mark says SO IT IS SHADY, IT'S A HILL AND YOU DON'T WANT TO CUT THE GRASS ANYMORE. TRY GROWING GRASS THERE. NUMBER OF THINGS YOU CAN DO. I'LL PUT THIS AT THE TOP OF MY LIST. PACK SANDRA, KNOWN AS JAPANESE SPURX URGE. BUT IF YOU JUST WRITE DOWN JAP SNEEZE SPURGE. YOU HAVE A GREAT GROUND COVER HERE, YOU WILL PLANT THEM ABOUT 15 CENTIMETERS APART. 6 INCHES APART. YOU ARE GOING TO PUT THEM ON A GRID ON THE HILL AND THE BEAUTY OF THIS, IS THAT THEY ARE EVER GREEN SO YOU WILL SEE THEM ALL YEAR LONG. WHEN THE SNOW BHELTS, THERE THEY'RE, STANDING UP, LOOKING GREAT AND THEY ARE HOLDING THAT SOIL IN PLACE. SO SOIL EROSION IS A BIT OF A PROBLEM ON THESE HILLS. SO THIS IS A GREAT PLANT FOR THAT. NEVER. PULL A FEW WEEDS UNTIL THEY BECOME KNIT TOGETHER AND THEY MOVE AS THROUGH THE SOIL SO THEY SELF PROPAGATE BY ROOT. AND NOW, THAT WOULD BE THE TOP OF MY LIST. LILY OF THE VALLEY, PERHAPS ONE OF THE MOST UNDERRATED NATIVE PLANTS WE HAVE IN ONTARIO BECAUSE IT'S SO INCREDIBLE HEARTY, INSECT AND DISEASE RI CYST SKPANS A BEAUTIFUL FLOWER IN JUNE, AND IT, TOO, WILL FORM A COMPLETE MAT ON THAT HILL IN TIME. PLANT THEM, SAME DISTANCE APART, SIX INCHES OR 15 CENTIMETERS.

Mary says YOU ARE RIGHT. I DON'T HEAR TOO MANY OF MY NEIGHBORS TALK ABOUT LILY OF THE VALLEY. WHY?

Mark says IT'S TOO EASY. IT'S TOO EASY. IT IF YOU IF YOU CAN'T FUZZ OVER IT, WHY HAVE IT? THERE IS A GREAT PLANT FOR COTTAGERS, YOU PLANT THE LILY OF THE VALLEY AND GO NORTH. IT WILL BE THERE WHEN YOU GET BACK AT THE END OF THE SUMMER. LOVES THE SHADE SKPPLT MY DOG TRAPS THROUGH OURS ALL OF THE TIME, NEVER ANY DAMAGE TO THE PLANTS.

Mary says HOW IS YOUR GARDEN, BY THE WAY? YOU SHOIED US LOVELY PICTURES OF YOUR HOME LAST TIME.

Mark says GREAT. I AM SO THRILLED. IT IS LOOKING GREAT THIS YEAR.

Mary says I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE THRX SENTIMENTAL FAVORITES IN YOUR GARDEN? YOU KNOW THERE'S ONE TREE THAT WE HAVE, AND BY THE WAY, I THINK THIS IS A LOVELY IDEA, WHEN MY FIRST SON WAS BORN, ONE OF OUR RELATIVES GAVE US A JAPANESE MAPLE TO HONOR HIS BIRTH.

Mark says WONDERFUL.

Mary says WE PLANTED IT AND THEN WE MOVED ACTUALLY JUST ABOUT A YEAR AFTER THAT, SO WE HAD TO MUFT TREE. WE MOVED THE TREE WITH US AND IT HAS NOW BEEN THERE, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL, JUST GROWN INTO A GORGEOUS TREE AND EVERY TIME I LOOK AT IT, I HAVE THIS, SENTIMENTAL FEEL BEING IT. IS THAT A GREAT IDEA TO GIVE A TREE OR A PLANT, YOU KNOW, TO HONOR THE BIRTH OF A CHILD.

Mark says JUST ONE THING, MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU ARE THE GIVER, MAKE SURE WHAT YOU ARE GIVING IS WINTER HARDY BECAUSE, YOU DON'T WANT TO GIVE THAT PLANT, HAVE IT DIE.

Mary says YEAH. THAT'S VERY TRUE.

Mark says NOT A GOOD THING. RIGHT, SO MAKE SURE. ESPECIALLY TO HONOR THE BIRTH OF A CHILD OR THE MEMORY OF SOMEONE THAT'S SINCE MOVED ON. YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IS A GOOD HEARTY PLANT. JAPANESE MAPLE, GOOD CHOICE FOR TORONTO WHERE YOU ARE BUT DON'T PLANT THAT IN NORTH BAY. NOT GOING TO WORK IN OTTAWA, RIGHT. RIGHT. SO IT'S A GREAT IDEA, MAKE SURE IT'S WINTER HEARDY THOUGH.

Mary says HOW LONG HAVE YOU LIVED IN YOUR HOME?

Mark says 15 YEARS.

Mary says SO YOU HAVE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE, WELL FOR SURE FOR 15 YEARS, RIGHT.

Mark says I HAVE KILLED A FEW, TOO.

Mary says HAVE YOU REALLY?

Mark says YEAH. IT'S GREAT TO BE ABLE TO FAIL AT THIS. IT'S ONE OF THE FEW THINGS WE CAN FAIL AT AND FEEL GOOD ABOUT BECAUSE YOU LEARN. YOU LEARN AND YOU MOVE ON.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL HERE. LINDA IS ON THE LINE, HI, LINDA.

The caller says HI.

Mary says GO AHEAD.

The caller says YES, I HAVE A JAPANESE TREE I JUST PLANTED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, NOW I'M SORT OF CONCERNED ABOUT THIS HOT WEATHER AND HOW TO TAKE CARE OF IT IN THE FALL AND THE WINTER.

Mark says BEAUTY OF JAPANESE TREE IS THAT YOU DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. IF YOU PLANTED IN THE RIGHT SPOT, YOU PLANTED IT IN GOOD SOIL, JAPANESE TREE IS REALLY HEARTY. UP IN OTTAWA, NO PROBLEM WITH, DON'T BOTHER TRYING TO WIBTERIZE IT NECESSARILY. THE BEST THING TO DO FOR IT. GIVE IT LOTS OF SPACE, NOT A LOT OF COMPETITION, LOTS OF SUNSHINE, SO HOFL HOPEY THE PLANT IT IN A SPOT THAT'S NICE AND OPEN, AND ONCE A YEAR, PUT AN INCH OF FINISHED COMPOST ON ITS ROOTS IN THE FALL. SO WHEN YOU ARE GATHERING UP YOUR LEAVES, TAKE THE COMPOST THAT'S FINISHED IN YOUR COMPOSTER AND PUT A MULCH OF ONE INCH AROUND THE ROOTS, THE CHINESE AS WELL. AS WELL AS THE JAPANESE TREE. AND THAT'S REALLY UL YOU NEED TO DO.

Mary says WELL, I HAVE TO ASK YOU. PEOPLE ARE STARTING OUT AS FAR AS BASICS GO. DO THEY TEND TO FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS OR NOT? WHEN YOU GET THOSE STRUCKS?

Mark says THEY DON'T TEND TO RED INSTRUCTIONS, NO. THAT'S HUMAN NATURE.

Mary says AND SO, HOW MUCH OF A PROBLEM IS THAT? I MEAN IF PEOPLE ARE, THEY ARE REALLY EAGER, GO OUT AND BUY THE SPEED E SEEDS AND DON'T READ THOSE STRUCKS, DO YOU FIND THAT YOU ARE GETTING INTO LOTS OF PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WITH QUESTIONS THEY ASK YOU, THEY COME TO SEE YOU.

Mark says YEAH. YEAH. LOTS OF PROBLEMS, YET YES, YOU KNOW PEOPLE FRANKLY LISTEN BETTER THAN THEY READ. AND I THINK THAT, IT TAKES ME BACK A LITTLE BIT TO THE CLUB SITUATION, THE HORTICULT URAL SOCIETY AND THE SOCIALIZING, AND I THINK THAT THROUGH SOCIALIZING, OVER THE SUBJECT OF GARDENING AND, YOU KNOW, A CURE SHYNESS, CURES SHYNESS, GET NEIGHBORS CALKING ABOUT VERY FEW OTHER THINGS OTHER THAN KIDS WON'T GET NEIGHBORS TALKING. GARDENING AND KIDS, AND IT IS THROUGH THAT KIND OF COMMUNICATION, I THINK PEOPLE LEARN, LIKE AN ACID SOIL AN ALKALINE SOIL. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? HOW DO I TUS. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE READING ALL THAT. MANY DO, DON'T GET ME WRONG BUT THE MAJORITY DO NOT READ DIRECTIONS VERY WELL. PUT MYSELF IN THAT SAME CATEGORY. IF PUTTING TOGETHER A BARBECUE, AM A GOING TO READ, THE FIRST THING I LOOK HOW LONG ARE THOSE INSTRUCTIONS. I IS A THRESH HOD. MORE THAN I WANT TO DEAL WITH.

Mary says JUST PUT IT ASIDE.

Mark says PUT IT TOGETHER WITHOUT ALL OF THAT.

Mary says THAT MAKES SENSE.

Mark says AM I ALONE?

Mary says NO.

Mark says IS THAT A GUY THING?

Mary says JUST GOING BACK TO SEEDS, IS THERE A PREFERENCE WITH PEOPLE STARTING OUT. DO THEY TEND TO GO FOR THE PLANTS RATHER THAN SEEDS, SEEDS ARE INTIMIDATING FOR NOVICE GARDENERS.

Mark says AND PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THEIR OWN ABILITY TO GET SEEDS TO GERM NAT AND GROW IN THE GARDEN. BUT YOU START WITH A SUN FLOWER OR SOME MORNING GLORYS OR SOME KARTS AND EXCUSE ME, THE BEST THING OF ALL, RADISHES, YOU CAN'T GO WRONG. ONCE YOU HAVE DONE IT, YOU GO, I DID THAT FOR 89 CENTS I GOT THIS GARDEN SIZE OF THIS TABLE FULL OF RADISHES FOR 89 CENTS, MAYBE I CAN GRE A FEW STORES AND OFF PEOPLE GO UNTIL THEY TAKE THAT LEAP, LOOKING FOR RADISHES IN LITTLE CELL PACKS, THAT'S NOT FAIR. THAT'S NOT WEAR YOU SHOULD. LIKE BUYING CORN IN CELL PACKS, SO I'M AFRAID OF SEEDS, WHEN'S THE TRICK WITH SEED SNS

Mary says JUST DO IT.

Mark says THE TRICK IS TO BUY IT AND DO IT. WATER. WATER IS... ONCE THE SEEDLING IS PUT DOWN A ROOT AND PUP PUTT UP A TINY SPROUT, IT'S VERY SENSITIVE TO MOISTURE SPERXLY LACK OF MOISTURE, SO YOU CAN'T LET IT DRY OUT. SO THERE IS A LITTLE BIT, YOU ARE A MOTHER, OKAY?

Mary says YES. I TRY TO BE.

Mark says YOU HAD NEW BORNS, RIGHT?

Mary says YES.

Mark says YOU HAD THREE NEW BORNS SO YOU KNOW JUST HOW MUCH, HOW IT TENDS... THE ATTENTION WAS IN THE VERY PINNING, YOUR ATTENTION ON THE NEW BORNS VERY THE SAME SORT OF SITUATION. NOT THAT I WAS EVER A MOTHER.

Mary says WELL, YOU AR A DAD, SAME THING. DO I START INDOOR OR OUTDOOR FIRST WITH THE SEEDS.

Mark says START WHEREVER YOU WANT TO START, LIKE, IT'S NOT TOO LATE NEAR THE END OF JUNE TO START OUTDOORS. YOU COULD, I SOD SOME SWRIN IA SEEDS JUST FIVE DAYS AGO AND THEY'LL BE IN FULL BLOOM FOR THE END OF AUGUST. THE BEAUTY OF THE THING, WE HAVE HEAT, WE HAVE GOT LONG, LONG DAYS, LONG EFFORT DAYS OF THE SEASON ARE NOW, AND SO, PLANTS ARE GROWING FASTER NOW THAN THEY WILL ANY ILL OTHER TIME OF THE YEAR. AND SO, THEY WILL GERM NAT AND MATURE MORE QUICKLY, TOO.

Mary says OKAY. I'M INSPIRED. FRAN FROM ALLISON IS ON THE LINE. HI. GO AHEAD.

The caller says YEAH, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT SHOULD I SPRAY MY CLIMBING ROSES WITH FOR INSECTS AND DISEASE.

Mark says VERY GOOD QUESTION. YOU KNOW, THE ROSES ARE COMING IT TO BLOOM NOW AND THEY'RE LOOKING GREAT IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO AND ANOTHER WEEK IN NORTHERN ONTARIO, IN FULL BLOOM. AND AS THEY ARE... THEY ARE BLOOMING, DON'T SPRAY THEM WITH ANYTHING. YOU DON'T WANT TO AFFECT THE POLLINATING INSECTS THAT VISIT THE FLOWER OS YOUR ROSES, THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF A FLOWER... KEEP THIS IN MIND... THE WHOLE PURPS TO ATTRACT POLLINATEORS, DON'T INTERRUPT WITH THAT EXERCISE THAT MOTHER NATURE HAS DESIGNED INTENINGALLY. THEN SPRAY WITH A COMBINATION OF GARDEN SULPHUR AND AIM INSECTICIDE. A BO NT TAN KAL INSECTICIDE MADE BY GREEN EARTH. IT'S MADE BY GREEN EARTH, IT'S COMPLETELY SAFE FOR USE AKROUND CHILDREN AND PETS AND MORE EFFECTIVE THAN SAY, INSECT I'DAL SOAP. WHICH 10 YEARS AGO, EVERYBODY WAS USING SOAP AND THEY ENDED UP WITH VERY CLEAN INSECTS. WHAT THE PROBLEM OF COURSE WAS, IT DIDN'T REALLY WORK ALL THAT WELL. AIM IS JUST I LITTLE MORE EFFECTIVE BUT STILL VERY, VERY SAFE. MIX THEM TOGETHER, SPRAY THEM ON AND WAIT FOR THE BLOOMING TIN TO FIN INNER.

Mary says ROSES, THOSE INTIMIDATE ME AS WELL. I THINK ABOUT OVERWINTERING, WHAT ABOUT ADVICE IN THAT AREA. OVER WINTERING ROSES.

Mark says THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT FAMILIES OF ROSES AND THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE TENDER EVEN IN NIAGARA. THAT SUCH A MILD PART, MOST ROSES NUP THE FALL, ABOUT SO HIGH, ABOUT 30 CENTIMETERS WITH TOPSOIL OR COMPOST BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF VERY HEARTY SHRUB ROSES THAT UP IN OT WHERE.

Mary says YOU WON'T HAVE TO WINTERIZE? LIKE WHAT FOR INSTANCE?

Mark says THE WHOLE FAMILY OF EXPLORERS FOR INSTANCE. NAME A CANADIAN EXPLORER. DAVIS, HUDSON, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THOSE GUYS HAVE ROSES NAMED AFTER THEM. AND THAT'S ALL PART OF THE SOMETHING THAT THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT STARTED AND THEN SOLD OFF, IN TWPING THESE NEW ROSE VARIETIES THAT WERE HEARTY IN THE PRAIRIES, NOW THEY'RE HARTY IN THE PRAIRIE, THEY'RE HEARTY ANYWHERE IN ONTARIO. RULE OF THUMB. CERTAINLY IN OTTAWA. NO PROBLEM. THE EXPLORER SERIES, BEAUTIFUL, HOW ARE THEY...

Mary says HEART NE THE PRAIRIES, DID YOU SEE A LOT OF ROSES IN KAL GAER OR EDMONTON.

Mark says THE FORTUNATELY FLOWER FOR ALBERTA IS THE PRAIRIE ROSE.

Mary says RIGHT. RIGHT.

Mark says SO ROSES, ROSES INTIMIDATE A LOST PEOPLE, MARY, LIKE YOU. BUT I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY WARRANT THAT REPUTATION, A LOT OF THEM ARE SO EASY TO GROW. YOU SHOULD TRY IT.

Mary says HERE, WE HAVE A CALL FROM DORENE.

The caller says HI. ENJOY YOUR SHOW VERY MUCH.

Mary says GREAT. THANK YOU.

The caller says I HAVE A QUESTION FOR MARK. MY TOMATO PLANTS, MIRACLE GROW, BUT MY BIG ET PROBLEM EVERY YEAR IS THE TOMATO WORMS AND I DON'T WANT TO USE PESTICIDES, CAN YOU SUGGEST ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE SAFE TO USE.

Mark says YEAH, YOUR FINGERS. IF WE'RE TALK BEING THE TOMATO HORN WORM PROBABLY THE UGLIEST WORM KNOWN TO NATURE KIND. IT IS AS THICK AS YOUR THUMB AND ABOUT THAT LONG. IT IS TRULY UGLY.

Mary says I HAVEN'T SEEN THOSE.

Mark says IT DOESN'T MANY TO DEVASTATE A TOMATO PLANT FERMENT ONE. BUT PUT ON A PAIR OF GLOVE FIST YOU LIKE AND JUST TAKE IT OFF THE PLANT, DROP IT INTO A CONTAINER FILLED, HALF WITH WATER WITH A LITTLE BIT OF OILER AND IT WILL MEET ITS MAKER THERE. IN THAT OIL. AND YOU CAN USE VEGETABLE OIL IF YOU LIKE OR GASOLINE, OR KEROSENE OR WHATEVER. AND IF IT IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF WORM, THEN YOU COULD TRY THE AIM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT COULD BE. WORMS ARE... WORMS ARE REALLY THE LA RVA E OF A BUTTER FLY OR MOTH ALMOST ALL OF THE TIME, NOT TALKING ABOUT EARTH WORMS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LA RVA E. IF IT IS SOMETHING THAT'S SMALLER AND GREATER IN NUMBERS AND PICKING BY HANDS MAKES NO SENSE, THEN TRY THE AIM. AND THIS IS THE SECRET. GET ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE LEAVES, YOU REALLY HAVE TO. THAT'S WHERE MOST INSECTS HARBOR.

Mary says SO JUST SAY THAT AGAIN, YOU TAKE THE WORM OFF AND IN A SLUING OF...

Mark says WATER WITH A LITTLE BIT OF OIL.

Mary says OIL FLOATING ON TOP?

Mark says IT MAKES THE BARRIER SO THE INSECOND ENTED UP.

Mary says WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF YOU SPRAYED THAT ON THE PLANT.

Mark says NOT MUCH. YOU WOULD END UP WITH A SLIPPERY INSECT, I THINK.

Mary says OKAY. SO NOT THE OIL, AND...

Mark says IF YOU WERE USING A PETRO PRODUCT LIKE KEROSENE OR GASOLINE.

Mary says YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

Mark says NOT ON YOUR PLANT.

Mary says VEGETABLE OIL?

Mark says NO. IN FACT, I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD WORK. NO.

Mary says I HADN'T HEARD OF THOSE WORMS, THEY SOUND VERY UGLY.

Mark says THE TOMATO HORNED WORM. AND PROBABLY A LOT OF BUGS YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF. I JUST LEARNED OF ONE CALLED THE BUFFALO LEAVE HORP. YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT THAT IN ONTARIO.

Mary says DO WE SEE THOSE HERE?

Mark says THEY ARE SO SMALL YOU CAN'T SEE THEM BUT CAUSING A LOT OF DAMAGE ON THE CORK SCREW HAZEL.

Mary says WHAT'S HAPPEN SNING?

Mark says THEY ARE DEFOIL YATING THE PLANTS AND SEEING A LOT AROUB THE GREATER TORONTO AREA. PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE WINTER DAMAGE ON THEIR CORK SCREW HAZEL. IT'S THE BUFFALO LEAVE HOPPER.

Mary says WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST FOR THAT?

Mark says SPRAY IT AGAIN WITH THE AIM. YUP, YUP. NOW IN THAT CASE, A DORMANT SPRAY IN THE MIDDLE OF APRIL WOULD BE VERY, VERY HELPFUL.

Mary says YEAH, OKAY, CON Z ON THE LINE FROM MARKHAM. HI. AN E-MAIL.

Text on screen reads "Can Mister Cullen recommend deer proof plants? Connie, Markham."

Mark says I CAN ACTUALLY. INTERESTING THAT YOU VALID DEER IN MARKHAM. I KNOW YOU ARE THERE UNIONVILLE IS JUST DOWN THE ROAD FROM MARKHAM. TECHNICALLY IN MARKHAM. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? IF YOU VISIT MARKHAM.COM AND YOU GO TO DEER, THERE ARE DEER RESISTANT PLANTS LISTED THERE ON MARK CULLEN.COM. SO RATHER THAN ME TRY TO RECITE SOME OF THE PLANTS THAT ARE THERE, THERE ARE ABOUT 25 THAT ARE PRUFERN DEER RESISTANT PLANTS, GO TO THE SKPLS THEN ONCE YOU KNOW IF YOU WANT PE REIN IALS OR SHRUBS OR ANNUALS, YOU CAN...

Mary says HEY, THAT'S GREAT. I WILL GIVE THAT WEB SITE AGAIN AT THE END OF THE SHOW. DO YOU MEAN TO SAY, YOU HAVE IT SET UP, IF I LOOK FOR A CERTAIN ANIMAL, THEN UL HAVE THE PLANTS UNDERNEATH IT THAT WILL BE RESISTANT TO IT?

Mark says A DEER ARE A PECULIAR PROBLEM. I GET THAT QUESTION A LOT, WHAT PLANTS ARE DEER RESISTANT? HOW DO KEEP RACCOONS OUT OF THE YARD? SKUNKS.

Mary says SKIRLS.

Mark says WE COULD WRITE SEVERAL BOOK OS KEEPING SQUIRRELS OUT OF THE YARD. COME TO THE CONCLUSION, THEY ARE A HIGHER LIFE FORM AND NOT KEEPING THEM OUT OF THE YARD. IT IS NOT GO TO HAPPEN. BUT IT HAS THE EQUIVALENT OF 3,000 NEWSPAPER ARTICLES IN IT AND ALL CROSS REVERENCED SO GO IN THERE WITH THE QUESTION, ARE IF INSTANCE AND THE ANSWER WOULD BE THERE FOR YOU.

Mary says GREAT. OKAY. DENISE IS ON THE LINE FROM INNISFIL.

The caller says HI.

Mary says DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION?

The caller says I HAVE A PLABT THAT HAS BEEN IN THE GROUND, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG. AT LEAST 8 OR NINE FEET TALL. I HAVE NOTICED THIS YEAR, NORMALLY IT HAS THE BIG WAXY FLOWER THAT COMES OUT IN APRIL AND THEN THOSE DROP OFF AND THEN THE LEAVES COME, THIS YEAR, ONE BRANCH ON THE BOTTOM OF THE TWO PLANTS HAD FLOWERS AND LITTLE BUDS WERE ON THE WHOLE REST OF THE TREES BUT NOTHING FLOWERED AND THEN ABOUT FIVE WEEKS LATER THE LITTLE LEAVES STARTED TO COME OUT ON THE REST OF PLANT AND ALL OF THOSE LITTLE BUDS DRIED UP AND FELL OFF. I AM WONDERING IS IT GOING TO FLOWER AGAIN OR DO I NOW HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SPECIAL TO IT, CUT IT DOWN BECAUSE IT NEVER FLOWERED THE REST OF THE PLANT.

Mark says So the TOP LARGEST PORTION OF THE PLANT IS NOT PRODUCING LEAVES OR FLOWER BUDS? SO I WOULD CUT ALL THAT OFF. SOMETHING CONFUSE BEING THIS CALL IS THE SUGGESTION THAT ROSE OF SHARON PRODUCE A FLOWER IN EARLY SPRING. THAT'S NOT SO, THEY ARE A FALL BLOOMING PLANT. I HOPE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT PLANT. I HOPE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ROSE OF SHARON, A HEARTY HIBZURX SCUS. YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE IN OTTAWA WITH ROSE OF SHARON AND ALL OF US ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH ROSE OF SHARON. IT LEAFS OUT SO LATE IN THE SEASON ANYWAY AND THIS YEAR WITH THE SEVERITY OF THE WINTER, IT IS LEAFING OUT EVEN LATER THAN USUAL. SO ROSE OF SHARON PLANTS OUT THERE AND CERTAINLY TORONTO GARDENS THAT ARE STILL ALIVE WITHOUT LEAFS ON THEM. WE HAVE GIVEN THEM THE THUMB NAIL TEST AND I HAVE DONE THIS AS RECENTLY AS LAST WEEK ON A FRIENDS ROSE OF SHARON, UNDERNEATH THE BARK THERE IS GREEN, IF IT IS GREEN, YOU KNOW IT IS LIFE. IF IT BROWN AND THE BARK IS TIGHT TIS DEAD AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL CUT DOWN INTRO THE GREEN AND THAT WILL FORCE IT INTO LEAF SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

Mary says ALL RIGHT. BUT SO FOR HER, YOU SAID TO CUT OFF THE TOP PART.

Mark says THE PART THAT HAS NOT PR DUCE KBD LEAF LEAVES, CUT THAT OFF.

Mary says AS FAR AS PE REIN IAL, BETTER PLANTED IN THE SPRING OR THE FALL?

Mark says IT DEPENDS ON THE PE REIN IAL BUT GENERALLY PEEK TING DOESN'T PARTY PROVIDING A CONTAINER GROW PLANT. SO NURSERYS NOW ARE PRODUCING ORIENTAL LIL ES, ALL OF THOSE PE REIN IALS WE ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH ARE BEING PRODUCED IN CONTAINERS, THE ROOTS ARE RESTRICTED TO THE SIZE OF THE CONNECTICUT TABER ITSELF. SLIDE THE PLANT OUT AND PUT IT INTO THE GROUND ANY TIME RIGHT THROUGH THE SUMMER. EVEN ON A HOT, HOT DAY LIKE WHATEVER. YOU CAN PUT IT IN THE GROUND AND THE PLANT IS GOING TO BE FINE.

Mary says DOW THINK THOUGH JUST FROM HABIT, PEOPLE ARE STUCK WITH PLANTING IN THE SPRING. MAYBE THERE IS NOT ENOUGH PLANTING IN THE FALL THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

Mark says WELL, ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S HUMAN CONDITIONING MORE THAN ANYTHING AND FOR GENERATIONS BEFORE WE HAD CONTAINERIZED PLANTS, THE TIME TO PLANT WAS UP TO THE MIDDLE OF MAY AND THEN MAY 24TH WHFS YOU PLANTED YOUR ANNUALS AND BY FATHER'S DAY YOU WERE DONE. THAT WAS IT. THE BUSINESS IS CHANGING AND A LOT OF BUSINESS NOW IN THE SUMMER AND TRYING TO KEEPT CONTAINERS UP, AND BECAUSE, THERE'S NO, VIRTUALLY NO TRANSPLANT SHOCK, IT'S NOT LIKE THE NURSERY IS CUTTING THOSE ROUTES TO GET IT INTO A POT TO GET IT TO YOU. THE ROOTS THAT IT GREW AND IN THE LIFETIME ARE ALL CONTAINED IN THAT SOIL MASS AND NO TRANSPLANT SHOCK AS LONG AS THE SECRET, GOOD SOIL PREPARATION AND WATER.

Mary says YOU KNOW WHAT I HEARD, SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT FLOWERS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM ANNUALS AFTER YOU GET THEM FROM A LOCAL NURSERY BECAUSE THIS PROMOTES ROBUST GROWTH. HAVE YOU HEARD THAT. I HAVE HEARD IT MANY TIMES, IS THERE ANY TRUTH TO THAT?

Mark says I STILL HAVE AN AUNT, GLOD BLESS HER, 84 YEARS OLD THAT PINCHS THE PE TUNE IA.

Mary says WHAT ELSE DOES SHE PINCH?

Mark says I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T GO THERE TO BE HONESTY HONEST EFFORT WU. THE CONCEPT OF PINCHING BACK AN ANNUAL PLANT IN ORDER TO ENCOURAGE IT TO BLOOM IS AN OLD NOTION AND REALLY, IT GOES BACK TO A TIME WHEN ANNUALS FLOWERED AT THEIR BEST ONCE, ONLY AND THEN THEY WENT TO SEED AND THEN THEY FINISHED. PE TUNE IA FOR INSTANCE, THE WAVE PE TUNE IA AND THAT THAT ARE CALLED SUPER PE TUN YOO. HYBRID PE TUNE IAS THAT DON'T NEED PINCHING EVER, THE DAY YOU PUT IT IN THE GROUND, RIGHT UP UNTIL THE FALL. AND THEN THEY DO BLOOM, 4 TIMES MORE AGGRESSIVELY THAN THE OLD, THE OLD ONES THAT I KNEW WHEN I FIRST GOT INTO THE BUSINESS 25 YEARS AGO. OKAY. SO NOW... NO, PLANT THEM AND ENJOY THEM.

Mary says BARBARA IS ON THE PHONE. HI, BARBARA. HI. GO AHEAD.

The caller says COULD YOU TELL ME IF THE WISH BONE FLOWER IS GOOD TO ATTRACT HUMMINGBIRDS?

Mark says IT WOULDN'T BE MY FIRST CHOICE. BECAUSE THE FLOWER KIND OF HAS A CRIMP IN IT. IT IS NOT QUITE AS OPEN AS OTHERS. AND IT... BUT IT'S... IT SHOULD WORK. IT SHOULD WORK. KEEP THIS IN MIND, THEY LIKE THE BRIGHT COLORS, OF THE WISH BONE FLOWERS, SO, ANYTHING IN THE RED, THE HOT COLORS LIKE THE REDS, THE ORANGES, YEL OS, AX TRACT HUMMINGBIRDS MORE SO THAN SAY A BLUE FOR INSTANCE. AND THEY ARE LIKE ANYTHING THAT IS SHAPED LIKE A TRUMPET. THAT ACCIDENT YOU KNOW, THEY GO IN WITH THEIR BEAK AND A LITTLE BIP LIP IT ON IT LIKE A SNAP DRAG ONE WOULD WORK GREAT EXCEPT THE LIP AND SO. SORRY THE HUMMINGBIRD IS NOT THAT INTERESTED. AND TRUMPET NICOTINE, WHICH IS A NEGLECT RAR RICH FLOWER, THE OLD FASHION, GREAT FOR ATTRACTING HUMMINGBIRDS TO YOUR GARDEN.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT BUTTER FLIES? WHAT ARE THE BEST PLANT SNS.

Mark says THEY ARE AN INTERESTING INSECT. UNLIKE THE HUMMINGBIRD, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, HOVERS LIKE A HELICOPTER AND MOVES IN. LIKE THIS. THE BUTTER FLY NEED A PLATFORM, SO THEY LIKE FLOWERS ALSO HOT COLORS BUT THEY LIKE A PLATFORM, THEY LIKE AN NR LIKE, QUEEN ANN'S LACE LOOKS LIKE. THE KART FAMILYY AND IT HAS THAT FLOWER AND A BUTTER FLY CAN, CAN LAND ON THAT NICELY. YOU GET A NICE A NICE NEGLECT AR RICH FLOWER IT'S THAT. IT'S THAT PLATFORM THAT YOU AND THE BRIGHT COLORS. AND THE BRIGHT COLORS.

Mary says ALL RIGHT. JOYCE IS ON THE LINE. HIGHWAY, JOYCE.

The caller says HI. MY QUESTION IS, WE BUT BOUGHT THIS HOUSE AND INNER HAD ETITYED THIS SNOW BALL TREE, IN THE SHADE JUST NOW SKPPLT IN THE LAST YEAR AND THIS YEAR, IT HAS THIS BLACK WORM AND IT EATS ALL OF THE FOILAGE OF THE TREE. MY HUSBAND WENT TO A NURSERY AND THEY GAVE HIM A FEW OTHER... FEW DIF RINT KIND OF POISON BECAUSE EVERYBODY SAID IT WAS A DIFFERENT THING. AND I WOULD LIKE TO USE SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE NATURAL. WILL LADY BUGS DO ANYTHING OR NO.

Mark says LADY BUGS MIGHT, IF IT'S THE SOFT FLY LA RVA E. A PROBLEM WITH SNOW BALL BUSHES AND WITH HIGH BUSH CRANBERRY BOTH MEMBERS OF THE FAM LEECHLT AND THE SOFT FLY IS ATTRACTED TO THE FAMILY OF FLOWERING SHRUBS AND THEY CAN DEVASTATE THE PLANT WITHIN 48 HOURS. SO YOU NEED TO WATCH VERY CAREFULLY WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE PLANTS, WHEN YOU GET HOME FROM WORK, GET OUT THERE AND HAVE A WALK AROUND THE YARD BEFORE YOU SETTLE INTO THE EVENING AND JUST SEE IF THERE'S ANY INSECT ACTIVITY. THIS IS ONE YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR. ED AND THAT THE FIRST SIGN, THEN SPRAY WITH THE AIM THAT I MENINGED EARLIER ON AND REMEMBER THIS THIS IS THE SAME ROLE ABOUT THE UNDERSIDE OF THE LEAVES, THAT'S WHERE THEY HARBOR AND WITH YOU NEED TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THEM AM THE AIM IS A BOTANICAL, A GREEN EARTH PRODUCT THAT HELPS, TO, THAT HELPS TO REDUCE THE INTEKT PROBLEM BUT CERTAINLY THE SAME TIME, IT'S SAFE FOR USE AROUND CHILDREN, PETS. IT'S BENIGN TO THE ENVIRONMENT. SO IT WILL WORK. FORGET ABOUT THE CHEMICALS YOUR HUSBAND PICKED UP.

Mary says OKAY. IT'S FUNNY, ONLY GOTTEN INTO GARDENING RECENTLY AND ONE DAY, I WAS, ON MY WAY TO WORK AND I STEPPED OUT OF THE HOUSE AND I STOOD IN THE MIDDLE OF MY LAWN TO FACE MY CAR AND I JUST STOOD THERE MOLINGZLESS AND MY NEIGHBOR ACROSS THE STREET, I DIDN'T REALIZE, WATCHING ME. SHE RUSHED OVER. I THINK SHE WAS STILL IN THE HOUSE COAT, YOU GOT THE SICK NTS NOW. I KNOW, BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS ON THE GO, SHE HAS NEVER SEEN ME JUST STAND THERE MOTIONLESS FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, JUST STARING AT MY GARDEN.

Mark says AND JUST ADDED ABOUT FIVE HOURS TO YOUR LIFE BY DOING THAT.

Mary says DID I?

Mark says I THINK IF THE GARDEN CAN DO ONE THING FOR YOU, IF IT CAN CAUSE YOU TO STOP FOR A MOMENT AND CONTEMPLATE WHAT'S GOING ON THERE, THEN THAT HAS GT TO BE GOOD FOR YOU. IT'S A FORM OF THERAPY, I THINK, MARY. AND THE MORE DOW IT, I THINK THE BETTER FOR YOU, TOO.

Mary says I TOTALLY AGREE. HEY, WE GOT A CALL FROM NORTH BAY HERE. LET'S HEAR ABOUT THEIR GARDEN. BONNIE IS ON THE LINE FROM NORTH BAY.

The caller says HI.

Mary says HOW IS YOUR GARDEN?

The caller says WELL, ACTUALLY THE QUESTION I HAVE IS REGARDING RUBARB. WE HAVE IT PLANTED IN A BED THAT FACES SOUTH AND IT GETS FULL SUN, AND NO MATTER WHAT WE ADDED TO THE GROUND IN LIKE MANURE OR FERTILIZER AND LIME AND OTHER THINGS, WATER, IT JUST SIMPLY DOESN'T TAKE OFF AND IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN ALL OF MY LIFE I NEVER HAD RUBARB. I WAS WONDER FIGURE THERE'S SOMETHING WE COULD BE ADDING OR IF WE SHOULD BE MOVING IT TO ANOTHER LOCATION.

Mark says IT LOVES THE SUN. LOVES THE SUN SO NO AMOUBT OF SUN IS GOING TO HARM IT. IT WILL SUCK IN THE ENERGY OF THE SUN AND PUSH THAT ENERGY DOWN INTO ITS ROUTE ROOTS IN THE FORM OF PLANT SUGAR AND THAT'S WHY RUBARB HAS THIS MASSIVE FLESHY ROOT. EVER DIG ONE UP.

Mary says I THOUGHT THEY WERE HEARTY.

Mark says THEY ARE HEARTY AND WHILE, YOU SHOULDN'T REALLY SAY THIS, QUITE EASY TO GROW. HOWEVER, YOU SHOULD, YOU SHOULD PUT IT IN SOME SANDY SOIL. MY RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE NOT HAPPENING AND YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING RIGHT, THEN YOU SHOULD LIFT IT FROM THE SOIL, DIG A HOLE THE SIZE OF A BUSHEL BAFERK ET AND BACK FILL WITH TOP SAIL OR TRIPLE MIX AND MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S SAND IN THAT SOIL MIXTURE. THE SAND WILL PROVIDE THE DRAINAGE THAT WILL MAKE THOSE ROOTS SO HAPPY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GOING G LIKE THAT. YOU WANT ROOTS THAT GO THROUGH THE SOIL AND MOVE THROUGH THE SOIL NATURALLY AND WITHOUT ANY INHIBITION. IF YOU CAN GET THE RUBARB TO DO THAT BECAUSE THE TOP OF ANY PLANT IS ONLY AS HEALTHY AS THE ROOTS, RIGHT. ULTIMATELY, UL HAVE GOOD RUBARB. WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE WOULD HOLD TRUE HERE, ONE INCH, FINISHED COMPOST AROUND THE ROOTS OF YOUR RUBARB ALL THEY NEED. NO CHEMICAL FERTILIZER, VERY SELDOM INSECT PROBLEMS SO YOU SHOULDN'T BE SPRAY TING AND, THE PLANTS SHOULD LAST 50, 60 YEARS IN ONE LOCATION.

Mary says BOY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME. ALREADY.

Mark says THAT'S TOO BAD.

Mary says I LOVE LISTENING TO YOU.

Mark says THANK YOU.

Mary says AND HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY IN STOTLEMYRE LAND. AT THE TOWN OF CULLEN.

Mark says YEAH, WE ARE GOING TO CULLEN. THE CITY OF ROSES.

Mary says LOOK FORWARD TO THAT. AN HOUR SPECIAL ON THAT TOWN. AND THANK YOU, MARK. HOPE YOU COME BACK AGAIN.

Mark says I HOPE SO, TOO.

Mary says A GARDEN EXPERT AND ALSO THE AUTHOR OF MARK KINL'S ONTARIO GARDENING. FOR MORE GARDENING INFORMATION, YOU CAN VISIT HIS WEB SITE AT...

A caption reads "www.markcullen.com."
A still shot shows Mark's book sitting on a table.

Mary says IN OWEN SOUND ACCIDENT A COMBINATION. BOOK STORE, PUBLISHING HOUSE HAS BECOME THE LITERARY HEART OF THE COMMUNITY. IT'S CALLED THE GINGER PRESS AND IT'S EXCLUSIVELY DEVOTED TO PUBLISHING LOCAL AUTHORS. LAUNCHED BY MARY ANN THOMAS MORE THAN 15 YEARS AGO. IT HAS TURNED THE COMMUNITY INTO A HAVEN FOR BOOK LOVERS AND WRITERS. TVO IMPRANT PAID A VISIT TO A FEW LONG COLD MONTHS AGO.

A clip plays.

Tranquil music plays as we travel down a snowy road on a cold winter day.

A female voice says THE OWEN SOUND DISTRICT IS PHYSICALLY A VERY BEAUTIFUL PLACE AND YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS WRITE TING CERTAINED THERE'S NOTHING MISSING HERE. WE GOT IT ALL.

The woman speaking sits inside a bookstore.
A caption reads "Maryann Thomas. Ginger Press."

Maryann is in her forties, with short feathery brown hair. She's wearing glasses and a red sweater.

She continues I THINK ABOUT THE GINGER PRESS, THE LITTLE ONE LINER THAT I USE IS THE GINGER PRESS GIVES VOICE TO THE COMMUNITY. AND I THINK THAT IF, YOU KNOW, IF THE TREE FALLS IN THE FOREST AND NOBODY HEARS IT. DOES IT MAKE A SOUND. SO IF YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY AND THINGS ARE HAPPENING AND THEY DON'T GET RECORDED. 100 YEARS LATER, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT. YOU DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF LITERARY HERITAGE YOU WOULD HAVE HAD OTHERWISE. WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS CREATE A COMMUNITY BASED SKPBS, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF IT AS A CULTURAL BUSINESS, A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN COME AND GET THINGS HAPPENING AND I THINK THAT, SOME OF THE CONNECTIONS THAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE HAVE CREATED PROJECTS AND PRODUCTS THAT HAVE REALLY ENHANCED THE LITERARY COMMUNITY HERE. ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF THE GINGER PRESS, WE'RE NOT IN A LARGE URBAN CENTRE. WE CAN DO A LOT MORE THINGS, SORT OF UNDER THE RADAR.

Fast clips show Maryann talking to several people at an event, where people share books and read.

A woman sits on a couch holding a book titled "Saving your Life." T

The woman is in her sixties, with short curly auburn hair and glasses.

She says I'm Glenys Stow. THIS IS MY BOOK SAVING YOUR LIFE. A GUIDE TO WRITING YOUR LIFE STORY. AND IT IS IN ONE WAY AN ANTHOLOGY OF MANY, MANY PEOPLE IN THE OWEN SOUND COMMUNITY HAVE THA HAVE TAKEN MY COURSE ON WRITING YOUR MEMOIR. THE VALUE OF THE GINGER PRESS IN THIS KIND OF PROCESS AND MARY ANN'S WORK IS THAT. SHE'S SUCH A WONDERFUL PUBLISHER IN PICKING UP WHAT WILL BE REALLY VAUABLE TO THE COMMUNITY. SHE PICKS UP STORIES THAT RELATE TO OWEN SOUND ITSELF AND ALL OF THE VARIETY OF LIFE THERE IS HERE. AND IN MY CASE, OF COURSE MY BOOK IS AN ANTHOLOGY OF MANY DIFFERENT KIND OF LIFE THAT HAVE BEEN LIVED IN THIS AREA AND CONTINUING TO BE LIVED IT'S AN OPEN-ENDED THING.

Fast clips show frozen landscapes and anchored ships.

Maryann says ONE OF THE STRONGEST WRITE ZRS RICHARD THOMAS WHO WRITES MYSTERY STORE ES BASED IN OWEN SOUND IN THE EARLY 1920'S. WHAT HE DOES IS GOES TO THE LIBRARY AND CHECKS OUT THE MICROFILM FOR WHATEVER PERIODS OF TIME MOST RECENT ONE IS 1923.

The caption changes to "Richard J. Thomas. Four Deuces North."

Richard, in his late thirties, with a goatee and short gray hair, says WHENEVER I WRITE A NOVEL. WHEN I HAVE A PLAT IDEA TORX GO TO THE MICROFILM RECORD OF OWEN SOUND HERE IN THE OWEN SOUND NORTH BAY PUBLIC LIBRARY AND I AM NOT A HISTORIAN AND I RECOGNIZE THAT. WHAT I DO IS PICK A WEEK OR SO AND RESEARCH THAT WEEK VERY THOROUGHLY AND I SET MI MYSTERY IN PART OF OR ALL OF THAT WEEK.

Maryann says HE'S ALSO A SUPPORTIVE THE LITERACY PROGRAM. HE'S SAY, WELL IN THIS NOVEL, WE NEED TO NAME THE CHARACTERS AND REALLY, HE HAS NO VEST INTERESTED IN WHAT THOSE CHARACTER NAMES ARE GOING TO BE. HE SAID, HOW ABOUT IF WE SELL THOSE NAMES, SO, HE'S TAKEN THE VARIOUS CHARACTERS IN HIS BOOKS AND SOLD THOSE NAMES FOR LITERACY.

Richard says ALL OF THE MONEY I RAISED THROUGH DOING THAT, IT GOES TO THE ADULT LEARNING CENTRE AT THE OWEN SOUND NORTH BAY UNION PUBLIC LIBRARY AND TIM NICHOLS HERE IS THE DIRECTOR OF THAT PROGRAM.

Tim stands next to Richard.

Tim is in his early thirties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says WE'RE REALLY FORTUNATE THAT RICHARD CAME UP WITH THE CONCEPT IN HAS DONE SUCH A GREAT JOB PROMOTE TING. HE GETS PEOPLE ALL OVER THE COMMUNITY CLAMORING TO HAVE THEIR NAME IN THE BOOK. AND THEN HE DOES STRANGE AND WONDERFUL THINGS WITH THOSE PEOPLE BUT, THEY PAID THE MONEY AND WE USE IT TO BUY MATERIALS AND RESOURCES TO HELP OUT. AND FINISH THEIR EDUCATION.

Inside a radio studio a man in his seventies speaks into a microphone and says DID YOU KNOW THAT SOME DOZEN LOCAL AUTHORS WILL BE AUTOGRAPHING THEIR LATEST BOOK AT JIRJ GINGER PRESS IN DOWNTOWN OWEN SOUND FROM 11 UNTIL 3 THIS SATURDAY. JUST IN CASE YOU THINK THAT THIS IS QUITE A PLUG FOR THE GINGER PRESS AND THESE AUTHORS, WELL, I CERTAINLY HOPE SO. IF ANYBODY IS GOING TO GET RICH, IT WILL BE US READERS AS WE DISCOVER THE DIVERSITY AND QUALITY OF LOCAL WRITING AND PUBLISHING.

The caption changes to "Jake Doherty. The Rankin Files."

Jake says SMALL TOWNS HAVE TO TELL THEIR STORIES. IT'S THE ESSENCE OF SMALL TOWNS AND I THINK THAT IT IS ALMOST THE ESSENCE OF CANADA, INTO CHANGE, RAPID CHANGE, PEOPLE ARE MOVING, WE'RE IN TRANSIT ALL OF THE TIME. AND IF WE DON'T TELL OUR STORE, WE'LL LOSE THAT SENSE OF IDENTITY. AND MARY ANN IS UNIQUE. SHE GIVES PEOPLE LIKE ME A CHANCE TO GET STARTED. YOU KNOW, TO GET STARTED WITH FRIENDS, IT'S LIKE LURNING HOW TO READ, LEARNING HOW TO WRITE IS LEARNING HOW TO READ. SOMEBODY TO PUT THEIR ARMS AROUND YOU.

Maryann says I THINK I'M A NURTURER, THE PROCESS OF HELPING SOMEBODY THROUGH THE CREATIVE PROCESS IS MY LOT IN LIFE. AND IT IS WHAT BRINGS ME GREAT PLEASURE. THE EXPERIENCE OF WORKING WITH SOMEONE LIKE SET, EL, A WHO WAS BORN IN 1917 IN THIS COMMUNITY AND HERE IN 2003. SHE'S ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER, YOU KNOW, HER STORY.

The caption changes to "Stella Keenan-Mcpeak. Author."

Stella, in her eighties, with curly blond hair in an updo, says I WAS BORN IN OWEN SOUND IN 1917 ON THE SEARCHTH DAY OF OCTOBER. ED AND ON A SUNDAY. MY OWN SOUND WAS ROMANTIC, GLAMOROUS, JOYFUL. WONDERFUL WITH ANTICIPATION. OF GROWING UP AND BEING SOMEBODY. BECOMING SOMEBODY. DOING WHAT THE THINGS THAT I WAS INTENDED TO DO. THAT'S WHAT I ALWAYS WANTED. EVERYTHING WAS BEAUTIFUL.

A young, clean-shaven man wearing glasses says I WAS BORN IN OWEN SOUND IN 1969. AND THE GINGER PEREZ HAS ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE COMMUNITY AND I BOUGHT LOTS OF BOOKS HERE AND MARY ANN HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE. IT'S BEEN GOOD.

At the event, Maryann says LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I WOULD LIKE TO WELCOME YOU ALL HERE TODAY, FIRST, POINT OF CELEBRATION, OF COURSE, IS THE HONORING THE AUTHOR OF THE FOURTH DB MURPHY MYSTERY, THE BOOK ITSELF IS CALLED FOUR DUCES NORTH. BEFORE WE INTRODUCE THE AUTHOR, WHAT I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUN TO DO IS INTRODUCE AS MANY CHARACTERS AS ARE HERE FROM THE BOOK. NOW HAVING READ IT ONCE OR 10 TIMES, I KNOW THAT JUDY ARMSTRONG IS IN THE BOOK AND DAVE STEVE IS IN THE BOOK AND... BILL VAN WIK IS HERE. HE'S A MAIN CHARACTER. WITH YOU RIGHT THE THE WAY THROUGH.

Richard says FROM THE VERY FIRST.

Maryann says IS THERE ANYBODY ELSE HERE?

Richard says OH, YES. SCOTT VINING IS HERE SOMEWHERE. SCOTTIE. AND THEN BACK OVER HERE.

Maryann says IT'S AMAZING HOW PEOPLE ARE REALLY CON NECKED IN OWEN SOUND. IF YOU LOOK AT THE ADULT LEARNING CENTRE AT THE LIBRARY, THE LITERACY PROGRAM.

As she speaks, pictures illustrate the people she mentions.

Maryann continues HE GOT INVOLVED IN THE THREE DAY OF NOEL CONTEST INN VOLVED RICHARD WHO MY WRITER, RICHARD WAS WRITHE THE THREE DAY NOF SKPEL CO INCIDENTALLY HE SENT HIS DRAFT IN OWEN SOUND, I READ THAT AND DECIDED TO PUBLISH IT. HE SHOWED HIS BOOK TO JAKE WHO IS THE PUBLISHER AT THAT TIME OF THE SUN TIMES, JAKE SAID I ALWAYS WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK. RICHARD SAID GO, AHEAD. JAKE HAD TO RETIRE FROM THE SUN TIMES BEFORE HE WROTE HIS NEW BOOK THE RANKINFILES SHOW TING TO HIS BUDDY, NORA SAID THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE I HAVE WRITTEN THIS BOOK BUT REALLY WOULD LIKE TO DO MORE WITH MY LIFE STORY. SO SHE TOOK THE GLEN IS SON CHORUS, SAVING YOUR LIFE, HOW TO WRITE AND SHE TOOK THE SELF-PUBLISHING COURSE FOR ME. I SAID THIS BOOK IS FABULOUS. REALLY, WE SHOULD TAKE THE OUTLINE FROM YOUR COURSE, BUT WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS PAD IT WITH EXAMPLES FROM WRIGHTING FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE TAKEN YOUR COURSE AND PUBLISH IT INTO A BOOK WHICH HOW WE GOT SAVING YOUR LIFE, A FABULOUS BOOK ON WRITING YOUR LIFE STORY WITH EXAMPLES FROM 37 OWEN SOUND WRITERS. I HAVE NEVER FELT THAT OWEN SOUND COULDN'T PROVIDE ME WITH THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT I WAS LOOKING FOR, EVERY TIME I WANT TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. YOU KNOW THE HUMAN RESOURCES, THE PHYSICAL RESOURCES ARE HERE, AND NOW WITH TECHNOLOGY, I CAN CONNECT WITH EVERY PART OF THE WORLD THAT I NEED TO. IT IS ALL HERE. IT'S ALL IN OWEN SOUND FOR THE GINGER PRESS.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Mary says WELL, IMPRINT CAN BE SEEN EVERY WEDNESDAY NIGHT AT SEARCH RIGHT HERE ON TVO. JUST IMAGINE A MORNING LIKE ANY OTHER, YOU WAKE UP AND GET READY FOR DAY AT THE OFERS. AND DISTRACTED BY THE DEMANDS THAT AWAIT YOU AND QUICKLY KICK KIS THE SMILING FACES OF YOUR CHILDREN AND YOU RUSH OUT THE DOOR. MARTHA STARTED HER DAY VERY MUCH LIKE THAT ONE MORNING IN 1980. BUT THE DIFFERENCE WAS BEFORE HE MADE IT TO WORK A LOCAL JOURNALIST IN ETHIOPIA. SHE WAS KIDNAPED AND IMPRISON FORWARD 10 YEARS, LIKE MANY JOURNALISTS, SHE WENT THROUGH UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE, SIMPLY BUYER DOING HER JOB. TODAY, MARTHA IS A FREE WOMAN, A LECTURER ON SOCIAL WORK AT THE UNIVERSITY IN WATERLOO AND HERE TODAY SHO THEY'RE HER STORY.

Martha is in her thirties, slim, with long black hair tied back. She's wearing a blue blazer.

Mary says THANK YOU FOR COMING in.

Martha says THANKS FOR INVITING ME.

Mary says IF WE CAN GO BACK TO THAT DAY IN 1980, WHY WAS IT THAT YOU WERE KIDNAPPED BY THOSE MEN?

The caption changes to "Martha Kuwee Kumsa. Journalist Imprisoned 10 Years."

Martha says WELL, IT'S PART OF IT IS PRACTICAL THE MAJORITY GROUP AND THE MAJORITY AND NOT UNLIKE IN CAN DACHLT THE MAJORITY WOULD BE THE DOMINANT IN ETHIOPIA THE MA YORT IS THE DOMINATED AND VERY INSIGNIFICANT MINORITY WERE THE DIAGRAM NANT GROUP IN TERMS OF POWER. AND JUST BEING FROM... BEING IN A POSITION TO, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU ARE IN MAJORITY AND IT IS REALLY SURPRISED. SUPPRESSED. YOU CAN'T FIND THOSE WORDS SOMETIMES AND THE HISTORY IS SUPPRESSED AND YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO BRING OUT THAT QUESTION THAT SUPPRESSED HIFT SKPREE CULTURE TO LIGHT. THEN YOU REALLY ARE A MARKED TARGET.

Mary says THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE DOING AS A JOURNALIST LIMP.

Martha says AND GIVING A VOICE TO THE VOICELESS. SO TO SPEAK. BECAUSE, I WENT INTO THE COUNTRY SIDE BECAUSE AS A JOURNALIST, YOU GO INTERVIEW PEOPLE AND YOU GO INTO THE CROWDS AND CREVICES OF PEOPLE'S LIVE, WAY INTO THE REMOTE AREAS AND YOU COME TO REALIZE THAT WHAT THOSE PEOPLE ARE, HOW THEIR LIVES ARE AND IT IS SO, I COULDN'T BEAR IT. I NEEDED TO BE THAT VOICE OUT FERMENT SO, THAT HAPPENED. AND SO...

Mary says IT'S EYE THROAT THE AM AND THEY HAD BEEN WATCHING YOU. THEY HAD BEEN SEEING WHAT YOU HAD BEEN WRITING, WHAT YOU HAD BEEN SAYING OBVIOUSLY FOR A TIME BEING. AND THEN I UNDERSTAND THAT MORNING, THAT THERE WERE FOUR MEN WHO CAME AND TOOK YOU AWAY. WHERE WERE THOSE MEN? WHERE DID THEY COME FROM?

Martha says THEY JUST WORE, JUST LIKE YOU AND ME, PLAIN CLOTHES MEN, THEY CALLED THEM. FROM THE SPECIAL BRANCH OF THE SECURITY...

Mary says OF THE GOVERNMENT?

Martha says OF THE MILITARY REGIME AT THE TIME. THE MILITARY REGIME THAT CALLED IT, CHOSE TO CALL ITSELF THE COMMUNIST REGIME. IT'S FROM THE, FROM THE SPECIAL BRANCH OF THE SECURITY AND THEY WERE... AND I CAME TO WORK AND I RECOGNIZED THEM, THE MOMENT I SAW THEM, BECAUSE A FEW DAYS EARLIER, THEY INTO A JOURNALIST FRIEND OF MINE, A CHROING WITH WHOM I WORKED IN THE SAME NEWSPAPER AND THE SAME OFFICE SHARED, THE SAME OFFICE, THEY TOOK HIM AWAY, THEY WERE THOSE SAME SHIRTS AND I RECOGNIZED THEM AND MY HEART RACED AND OH, WHO DID THEY COME FOR THIS TIME? AND I WAS NOT SURE, THEY CAME FOR ME AND I JUST WALKED TO THE ELEVATOR, THEY BLOCKED THE WAY TO THE ELEVATOR, MY WAY TO THE ELEVATOR AND STOOD THERE AND ASKED ME IF I WAS MARTA AND I SAID, YES. AND I WAS STILL, YOU KNOW, KIND OF SHIVERING BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WANTED THIS TIME. AND THEY SAID, WE WANT YOU FOR A FEW MINUTES QUESTIONING. I SAID OH, MY GOD. IT'S FOR ME. THEY ARE AFTER ME.

Mary says AT THAT POINT, YOUR HUSBAND HAD ALREADY BEEN TAKEN?

Martha says MY HUSBAND, HAD DISAPPEARED AT THAT POINT. MY HUSBAND WAS TAKEN AWAY LIKE IN A STRETCH OF SIX MONTHS ACCIDENT HE WAS TAKEN, TORTURED, RELEASED, TANEN TORT URD, RELEASED, THREE TIMES IN A STRETCH OF SIX MONTHS. AND WHETHER THEY CAME FOR HIM THE FOURTH TIME, THEY COULDN'T FIND HIM. THEY WENT TO HIS OFFICE, THEY COULDN'T FIND HIM. THEY CAME HOME, HE WASN'T HOME. AND I THOUGHT, THEY HAVE GOT HIM, BUT THEY NEVER CAME BACK AND I THOUGHT OH, MY GOD. THEY GOT HIM.

Mary says YOUR HUSBAND NOW, HE WAS... ONE OF THE FOUNDING...

Martha says ONE OF THE FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE OPPRESSION FRONT AND ALSO ONE OF THE FOUNDING MEMBERS OF THE NEWSPAPER I WORKED FOR. IT'S A PRIVATE NEWSPAPER. AND THEY COULDN'T TOLERATE THAT. ACTUALLY THEY CONFISCATED IT IN THE END, THE GOVERNMENT CONFISCATED IT IN THE END BUT AT THAT TIME, HE DISAPPEARED. AND THEN THERE'S THIS, THIS THING CALLED RED TERROR. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT IT. THE RED TERROR, PEOPLE GETS KILLED AND KILLED AND ESPECIALLY YOUTH WERE KILLED AND JUST, THE BODIES JUST DISPLAYED IN THE STREETS, IT'S 1978. AND THEY CALLED IT RED TERROR KP IT WAS JUST, THE GOVERNMENT AND... POLITICAL PARTIES WERE FIGHTING AGAINST EACH OTHER AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, MY HUSBAND WAS KILLED. AND THERE WERE NO CORPS THAT HAD NOT TURNED, I WAS NINE MONTHS PREGNANT WITH MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER. AND BECAUSE HE DISAPPEARED. I THOUGHT HIS BODY MIGHT, I COULD FIND HIS BODY ANYWHERE IN THE STREET. AND I SKBNT THERE WAS NO WHERE I COULD FIND HIM. BUT THEN I ALSO HEARD THAT, OH, SOMETIMES THEY JUST THEY PUSH THEM INTO A POOL OF QUICK LIME AND JUST DISSOLVE THEM. OKAY. THEN MAYBE I COULD NEVER SEE HIM AGAIN AND THERE WAS NO PLACE I DIDN'T TURN. AND THE CORPS WERE JUST SO DISFIGURED, I COULDN'T RECOGNIZE.

Mary says SO THEN, NOW HAPPENED WHA HAPPENED TO YOU THEN? I KNEW WERE BLINDFOLDED, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHERE YOU WERE BEING TAKEN. YOU ENDED UP IN A PRISON.

Martha says AN INVESTIGATION CENTRE. THEY CALLED IT THE CENTRAL INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT CID. AND THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT ME JUST SHOVED ME INTO A ROOM AND I SLAMMED THE DOOR BEHIND SKMEE DISAPPEARED. THERE WERE MANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM.

Mary says I AM YOU SAYING AT ONE POINT, I DON'T FINISH THAT WAS THE IN THE ROOM, YOU WERE IN A STHAUL CELL WITH 60 PEOPLE.

Martha says THAT'S THE, THAT'S WHERE WE SLEPT, WHERE WE WERE SUPPOSE TO SLEEP, THAT'S WHERE WE LIVED.

Mary says WHAT HAPPENED? WHAT HAPPENED DURING THAT... 10 YEARS? IT'S HARD TO PUT YOUR MIND AROUND IT. I AM SURE WHEN YOU ARE IN THERE, NO SENSE OF time, WAS THERE?

Martha says NO. THE DAYS ARE BUT, THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO LEARN IS AND TOTALLY AT SOMEBODY ELSE TAKING CONTROL OF YOUR WHOLE LIFE, YOU HAVE TO PEE. STOP IT, YOU HAVE TO STOP. GET UP, YOU HAVE TO GET IT UP. LIE DOWN, YOU HAVE TO LIE DOWN. YOU HAVE TO LEARN THAT REGIMENT AND YOUR LIFE IS NOT IN YOUR CONTROL FERMENT THEN THEY WILL NOT GIVE YOU THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU SAY OKAY. I CAN PLAN THE NEXT FIVE MINUTES, YOU CAN'T PLAN YOUR FIVE MINUTES BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE NEXT MINUTE.

Mary says AND WHAT DID THEY WANT FROM YOU?

Martha says THEY SAID I WAS A MEMBER OF THIS AND A MEMBER OF THAT. I NEVER WAS. AT THAT POINT. AND I ALSO, IT IS... THERE WAS A MAJOR CRACK DOWN AFTER THEM, MAJOR CRACK DOWN AND THEN COME WITH THIS LONG LIST AND READ ACCIDENT EVERY NOW AND THEN, IT WOULD COME IN AND CALL NAMES FROM THE LIST, AND YOU WOULDN'T KNOW WHETHER YOUR NAME IS ON THAT LIST OR NOT. AND I WOULD SIT THERE OH, MY GOD, HERE THEY COME. IS IT ME? IS MY NAME ON THE LIST? AND IF THEY SOMETIMES THEY CALL A FEW PEOPLE AND TAKE THEM AWAY AND YOU NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN. THEY GET EXECUTED. SOMETIMES, AND THEY TAKE THEM AND THEY ARE FREED. SO THERE'S NO PATTERN AT ALL TO WHAT THEY DO. THEY KEEP YOU GUESSING AND SECOND GUESSING. THERE'S NO PATTERN. WE CHAT WITH OTHER PRISONERS RIGHT FERMENT AND THEN YOU FIND THEM OUTSIDE, FREED.

Mary says WHAT?

Martha says YOU GOT FREED.

Mary says YOU EVENTUALLY WERE FREED. AFTER 10 YEARS, WHAT I FIND SO MIRACULOUS BY ABOUT THIS IS THAT YOU WERE FREED AFTER 10 YEARS. AND YOUR CHILDREN, WHO TOOK CARE OF YOUR CHILDREN DURING ALL OF THIS TIME?

Martha says A LOT OF MOVING AROUND. FAMILIES, MY HUSBAND'S SISTER.

Mary says THEY LITERALLY GREW UP WHILE YOU WERE THERE, YOU WERE ABLE TO REUNITE WITH THEM. AND YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR HUSBAND WAS RELEASED AS WELL.

Martha says HE DISAPPEARED. AND WE, I NEVER HEARD ABOUT HIM UNTIL I WAS RELEASED AND WHEN I... EVEN WHEN I WAS IN PRISON, WE HEARD A LITTLE BIT OF A STORY, MAYBE HIM, MAYBE NOT BECAUSE HE WAS GIVING AN INTERVIEW AND SOMEBODY KIND OF SMUGGLED IN THIS NEWS INTO THE PRISON. IT MAY BE HIM, YOU KNOW. IT'S SOUNDED LIKE HIM. OH, MY GOD. I WAS HOPING AND AGAIN, MAYBE HE'S ALIVE, MAYBE HE SURVIVED SKPCHL THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, LOOKING FORWARD TO.

Mary says AND ALL OF YOU CAME TO CANADA.

Martha says YEAH.

Mary says AND REBUILT A LIFE HERE. IT IS amazing.

Martha says IT'S A MIRACLE.

Mary says YOU SAID IT'S A MIRACLE. AND NOW, NOW YOU ARE A STUDENT ONCE AGAIN AND YOU ARE WORKING ON YOUR PHD AND ALSO A LECTURER AT UNIVERSITY.

Martha says YEAH. IT'S AMAZING. AND I HAVE NEVER HAD TIME TO STOP AND, YOU KNOW, CATCH MY BREATH AND LOOK BACK AND SAY, OH, THIS IS HOW FAR I HAVE COME. I HAVE BEEN RUNNING, SO, AND BUSY SURVIVING. SO, I THINK IT IS A MIRACLE.

Mary says WELL THANK YOU FOR SHARING SOME OF THAT MIRACLE WITH US. AND CONTINUED SUCCESS WITH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

Martha says THANK YOU FOR inviting ME.

Mary says MARTHA A JOURNALIST THAT SPENT 10 YEARS IN AN PRISON FOR SPEAKING OUT. FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WRITERS FORCED INTO SILENCE ARNTION ROUND THE WORLD...

A slate reads "PEN Canada, www.pencanada.ca, Human Rights Watch, www.hrw.org."

Mary says But that is it for our show today. Thank you for watching, and please join us each weekday, Monday to Friday, for More to Life at 1 o'clock.

Watch: Gardening: Martha Kumsa