Transcript: Why Do Classics, Who's Your Daddy? | May 21, 2003

(music plays)

A title appears inside the shape of a house: More to Life. Words spin against a red and orange background: Health, Family, Home, Money, Fitness, Life. Fast clips show images related to the previous concepts, such as a dollar bill, a wheat field, and strands of DNA.

In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: "More to life."

Then, Mary Ito sits in a studio with textured yellow walls and plants in the background.

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair and bangs. She's wearing a pale green blazer and a silver pendant necklace.

Mary says HELLO, I'M AARY ITO AND WELCOME TO "MORE TO LIFE." LATER IN THE SHOW, WHO'S YOUR DADDY? WE'LL LOOK AT THE MYTH OF FEMALE MONDAY NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE ME. BUT FIRST, REMEMBER THOSE BOOKS THAT WERE SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS IN HIGHSCHOOL? AND COL'S NOTES MADE A KILLING OFF THEM? I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CLASSICS FROM HOMER TO DANTE TO SHAKESPEARE TO JOYCE, WE SHUDDER AT THE MERE THOUGHT OF THEM AND YET QUESTION WE FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT BECAUSE DEEP IN OUR HEARTS WE KNOW THEY SURVIVED FOR GOOD REASON. MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM. WE brought IN BRUCE MEYER, A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO AND ALSO THE AUTHORITY OF 20 BOOKS, HIS LATEST CALLED "THE GOLDEN THREAD" AND WE HAVE FIVE COPIES TO GIVE AWAY TO CALLERS WHO ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO MAKE IT TO AIR.

Bruce is in his late thirties, with short blond hair and a mustache. He's wearing glasses, a brown suit, white shirt and checkered red tie.
A picture of his latest book appears briefly on screen. The cover features a picture of shelves containing dozens of classic books.

Mary continues WHAT IS YOUR FAVOURITE CLASSIC? HOW DID IT IMPACT YOU? OR WHAT IS THAT ONE BOOK YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO READ BUT DIDN'T. PERHAPS YOU'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT A PARTICULAR CLASSIC. PROFESSOR MEYER CAN FILL YOU IN ON THAT GIVE US A CALL...

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Mary continues AND WELCOME, BRUCE. THANKS FOR COMING UP.

Bruce says GOOD AFTERNOON.

Mary says FIRST OF ALL, WHY SHOULD WE BOTHER READING THE CLASSICS?

The caption changes to "Bruce Meyer. 'The golden thread.'"

Bruce says WELL, I THINK TEAR IMPORTANT BOOKS BECAUSE THEY CONTINUALLY CONNECT TO US OUR OWN CULTURE. WE TEND TO THINK OF THINGS LIKE THE BIBLE OR ODYSSEY OR STEPHEN PLAYS OR METAMORPHOSIS...

Mary says YOU JUST NAMED YOUR TOP FIVE.

Bruce says RIGHT OFF THE TOP. AND WE TEND TO THINK OF THEM AS BEING OLD BOOKS BUT THEY'RE NOT OLD BOOKS, THEY ARE IN FACT BOOKS THAT ARE CONTINUALLY REMAINING US OF WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND US. THEY'RE PARTICULARLY ALIVE.

Mary says CAN I SAY TWO THINGS HERE? ARE WE SAYING UNIVERSAL AND TIMELESS?

Bruce says THEY'RE UNIVERSAL AND TIMELESS. FOR INSTANCE HAVE YOU EVER BOOKED A TRIP SOUTH?

Mary says SURE, YEAH.

Bruce says TO, YOU KNOW, CANCUN OR SOMEPLACE LIKE THAT BARBADOS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

Mary says YEAH.

Bruce says YEAH, YOU WERE SUCK ERRED BY SOMETHING THAT YOU SAW IN THE BOOK OF GENESIS. THE IDEA OF PARADISE. GETTING BACK TO A PLACE WHERE THERE'S NO TIME, WHERE YOU CAN RELAX, WHERE YOU CAN BE HAPPY. IN THE BIBLICAL CONTEXT, IT'S WHERE YOU CAN BE CLOSE GOD SO IN FACT WHEN YOU GO AND BUY YOUR HOLIDAY, YOU ARE IN FACT BUYING INTO A CONTINUING SORT OF IDEA THAT OUR TULT CULTURE HAS... PARADISE EXISTS SOMEWHERE.

Mary says YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN ANOTHER ACTION I DO LATER ON DURING THE SHOW BUT RARGD THE BIBLE... WE DIDN'T MENTION THAT ACTUALLY. THAT'S ONE OF YOUR...

Bruce says THAT'S THE TOP PICK. REALLY INFORMS US SO MUCH OF NOT JUST THE LITERATURE BUT OUR CULTURE, THE RELATIONSHIPS WE HAVE WITH OUR PARENTS, YOU KNOW? THE WHOLE IDEA OF HOW WE RECORD HISTORY. THE NOTIONS OF, I SUPPOSE, OUR ONGOING ROLL IN THE WORLD. IT'S ALL CONNECTED TO THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE'S A HISTORY OF TIME AND NOT JUST A HISTORY OF TIME BUT THE STORY OF MANKIND'S RELATIONSHIP TO GOD WITHIN THAT HISTORY OF TIME. YOU HAVE ONE CONTINUOUS CHARACTER AND THEN YOU'VE GOOD WHOLE HOST ALMOST, A PANORAMA OF CHARACTERSES WHO ARE ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, COMING AND GOING BUT THEY'RE EACH IN FACT PLAYING THE SAME ROLE. IN FACT RHEAUME, ACTING AS REPRESENTIVES FOR MANKIND AS THEY TALK TO GOD.

Mary says NOW YOUR CLASSICS ARE LIKE SORT OF THE CLASSICS OF CLASSICS. YOU'VE GONE RIGHT BACK, RIGHT? ARE THERE CERTAIN GUIDELINES THAT PERHAPS ACADEMICS USE TO JUDGE SOMETHING AS A CLASSIC? WHAT WOULD BE YOUR CRITERIA.

Bruce says I THINK IT'S THE SENSE IT'S LONG LAST, IT KEEPS INFORMING US AND IT KEEPS COMING BACK TO US IN SOME WAY SHAKESPEARE'S IMPORTANT. I WOULD SAY TO READERS IF YOU REALLY TO WANT GET A GRIP OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN LITERATURE OR CULTURE, READ SHAKESPEARE, AS WELL.

Mary says I'M ONLY GUESSING BUT DID YOU PICK HIM, THOUGH, BECAUSE HIS THEMES WOULD HAVE WITHIN EVEN... WE WOULD HAVE FIND THEM EARLIER ON AS WELL? ARE YOU TRYING TO PICK PROTOTYPES OF THE BOOKS?

Bruce says THESE ARE THE PROTOTYPES, YEAH. SHAKESPEARE OWES AN AWFUL LOT TO SOPHOCLESE. ROMEO AND JULIETTE OWES A LOT TO HIS PLAY ANTIGONY.. SHAKES SPIERS SBOR ROWS A LOT OF HIS STORIES, A MID-SUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM OUT OF THE METAMORE OF SIS. I'M GOING BACK TO THE TEXT...

Mary says SO IS EVERYTHING JUST PLAGIARIZED?

Bruce says NIGHT PLAGIARIZED. THERE'S A SENSE IS OF CONDITION HUMAN THAT'S AT WORK. THERE'S A TRADITION AND THAT EACH AUTHOR IS IN FACT LISTENING TO WHAT HAS GONE BEFORE HIM AND HER. THEY'RE TRANSLATING IT INTO THEIR OWN I HAD YOM, WAY OF TALKING ABOUT THINGS AND INTO THE CONTEXT OF THEIR OWN TIMES AND WHEN THEY DO THAT WHEN THEY'RE ACTUALLY THEY'RE GHIPG A WONDERFUL POOL OF INFORMATION, OF FOUR OR FIVE STORIES THAT KEEP REPEATING THEMSELVES.

Mary says THAT IS INTERESTING, I LOVE YOUR STORY BECAUSE STUDENTS ARE JOTTING WHAT DOWN TO TELL THEIR PROFESSORS BRST IT'S NOT PLAIJ JARISM, IT'S TRADITION.

Bruce says IF YOU COPY DIRECTLY FROM, IT IS PLAGAIRISM, IF YOU ALLUDE TO IT, IT'S IN FACT TRADITION, YOU SEE? AND THIS IS AN INTERESTING DISDISTINCTION. IF YOU LOOK AT THE GREAT RUN OF ENGLISH LITERATURE, SOMETHING LIKE MILT CONTINUE'S "PARADISE LOST" FOR EXAMPLE, WELL YOU HAVE TRACE IT BACK HE'S BORN HEAVILY FROM DANTE WHO IS BORN FROM MID-EVIL ROMANCE AND YOU THINK WHAT'S THE SOURCE FOR MID-EVIL ROMANCE, OF COURSE THE SOURCE... THE WORD ROMANCE MEANS A STORY IN THE ROMAN MANNER SO A STORY IN THE ROMAN MATTER IS REALLY THE EON DIMD BY VIRGIL, WITH IS THE... WHICH IS THE ROMAN STORE HE AUTO BUT YOU THINK WAIT A SECOND, THAT'S REALLY BORROWED FROM HOMER'S DAY ODYSSEY SO IT TAKES US BACK TO HOME SCOMPERT YEARS FOLLOWING THE TROJAN WAR, 1100 B.C. SO WHEN MILTON STARTS TALKING ABOUT MAN'S FIRST DISOBEDIENCE IN THE FRUIT OF THE FORBIDDEN TREE, HE'S ACTUALLY NOT JUST INVOKING THE HEAVENLY MUSE, HE'S INVOKING THIS GREAT SPIRIT OF THE CONTINUOUS TRADITION IN LITERATURE.

Mary says AND IF YOU WENT BEFORE HOMER YOU'RE PROBABLY LOOKING AT TRUE ORAL TRADITION.

Bruce says WELL, WHEN THEY DUG UP THE CITY OF UR AND THE LINE BRIEF ASHERBAMNERPAUL, THEY FOUND LITTLE CLAY TABLETS AND STARTED TRANSLATING THESE LITTLE PILLOWS AS THEY WERE, AND THEY SUDDENLY SAID MY GO, WE'RE HEARING THE STORY OF A HERO WHO GOES ON A LONG JOURNEY BUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STORY IT'S INTERRUPTED BY THIS NARRATIVE OF A FLOOD AND THE FLOOD EPIC ACTUALLY PRE-DATES CAN THE WRITING OF THE FLOOD NARRATIVE THAT WE HAVE IN GENESIS, THE STORY OF NOAH. SO WAIT A SEC, START THINKING ABOUT THIS WHERE ON EARTH DID ABRAHAM GET HIS STORY OF THE FLOOD WHEN HE WALKED OUT OF THE CITY OF UHR IN THE CITY... IN THE SEARCH OF THE PROMISED LAND, YOU REALISE HE CARRIED THE STORY WITH HIM AND IT GOT RETOLD AND RETOLD AND THE DESCRIBES IN THE BIBLE WROTE IT DOWN AND BUILT IT INTO THE BOOK OF GENESIS.

Mary says EARLIER ON YOU SAID THERE ARE PROBABLY FIVE OR SIX PLOT LINES.

Bruce says THAT'S IT AND THEY JUST KEEP BEING RETOLD AND RETOLD AND RETOLD.

Mary says SO WITH A ARE THEY?

Bruce says THERE'S THE STORY OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHERS AND SONS, WHICH RUNS THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE. BIG ISSUE IN THE BIBLE. IT'S ABRAHAM AND ISAAC BUT ALSO GOD AND JESUS, YOU KNOW? DAD'S UP STAIR, DAD'S WATCHING OVER ME. THERE'S THE ISSUE OF THE RLGS SHIP BETWEEN LOVER, YOUNG LOVERS. DAPHNES, YES WE FOR EXAMPLE BY LONGUS, THE STORY THAT A FAIT LOVER IS THE TURNS OF AN OVID CONTINUOUSLY.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT SIMPLE POSIOUS YUM.

Bruce says SIMPLE POEM POSIUM'S ABOUT DESIRE. PLATO'S SYMPOSIUM IS RAL STUDY ABOUT DESIRE AND THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT THE SYMPOSIUM, PEOPLE RECENTLY READING THE LISES STMD RATA, WHERE THE WAR IN IRAQ, AND ARISTOPHANESE TURNS IT UP AS A CHARACTER, HE'S A COMIC PLAYWRIGHT FROM THE TIME OF PLATO AND TURNS IT UP AS AN ACTUAL CHARACTER IN THE SYMPOSIUM AND HE GIVES US THE IDEA THAT EACH OF US HAS A SOUL MATE SOMEWHERE OUT THERE AND WE'RE CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR THE OTHER HALF OF OUR SOUL AND SOMEHOW AT SOME POINT IN TIME EARLY ON NON-OUR EXISTENCE, OUR SOULS WERE SPLIT AND THERE WAS A MALE AND FEMALE PART AND WE'RE LOOKING TO REJOIN THEM.

Mary says BUT IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT'S A MALE MALE RELATIONSHIP THERE THAT'S IDEALIZED.

Bruce says THAT'S RIGHT AND HE TALK THE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE HE SAYS THERE ARE SOME THAT IN FACT ENDED UP WITH MORE MALE AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THE OTHER HALF. WHICH IS FINE. SO REALLY THE IDEA OF SYMPOSIUM IS THE IDEA OF DESIRE AND LOVE AND HOW WE FIND IT...

Mary says I HAVEN'T HEARD YOU SAY THE BIG GUY, GOOD VERSUS EVIL.

Bruce says WELL THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE THAT COMES UNDER THE QUESTION OF HEROES. ONE OF THE GREAT STORIES THAT TURNS IT UP IN THE METAPHORE OF SIS, IT'S A LINEAGE OF HEROES. THE HOUSE OF PERCIOUS A MOTIF OR REPEATED IMAGE OF A HERO AND WHAT THE HERO DOES IS HE DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO BE A HERO BUT HE'S BORN WITH ALL THE EQUIPMENT AND EVENTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES FINE HIM, AND EVENTUALLY HE HAS TO PERFORM SOME GREAT DEED, WHICH IS USUALLY THE SLAYING OF AN EVIL CREATURE, THE EXPERIENCING OF A DEATH-LIKE CIRCUMSTANCE OR GOING TO THE UNDER WORLD, OR WHATEVER, SO HE HAS TO... THE THESIS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS TO SLAY THE MINOTAUR SO HE GOES THROUGH THE LABYRINTH WHICHIN FACT MET FORCALLY THE SAME THING AS THE DEATH WORLD. AND YOU KNOW, PERCENTIOUS GOES AND SLAYS THE GRACHIN AND SOMEBODY ELSE SLAYS MEDUSA, AND IF YOU'RE A MONSTER, YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE A HERO SHOW UP.

Mary says IT'S AMAZING THAT YOU CAN KEEP ALL THESE CHARACTERS STRAIGHT. A CAST OF THOUSANDS IN YOUR HEAD!

Bruce says WELL THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT THE HEROES, THOUGH IS THAT FACT THE STORY IS REALLY-TOLD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, ALMOST EXACTLY THE SISTERARY OF CHRIST GOING DOWN INTO THE UNDER WORLD, BATTLING DEATH AND OPENING THE JAWS OF HELL AND IN MEDIEVAL HIPOCRAFUL HISTORY, COMING OUT WITH THE SOULS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, BORN BEFORE THE TIME GRACE, SUB-JULOI AS THEY SAY.

Mary says SO DO WE FIND A LOT OF LINKS FROM THE BIBLE TO PREVIOUS STORIES.

Bruce says OH, OF COURSE. THE WONDERFUL THING ABOUT THE BIBLE IS THAT IT'S A MONDAY NEE KNOW THREEIST STICK VISION THE VERSION IT'S SURROUNDED BY A POLY THEISTIC WORLD THAT DOESN'T REALLY WANT THEM THERE AND SOMETHING LIKE THE BOOK OF JOB IS A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE MONOTHEISTIC JOB WHO BELIEVES HE WON'T CURSE GOD AND DIE, THERE'S A PURPOSE TO ALL HIS SUFFERINGS, HE'S HANGING ON TENACIOUSLY, DEFENDING HIS FAITHHIS BELIEFS, AND HE'S SURROUNDED BY ALL THE SEVEN COMFORT OTHERSES WHO ARE APPROXIMATELYTHEISTS WHO ARE SAYING JUST GIVE IT ALL UP, THE UNIVERSE IS A TRAGIC PLACE AND YOU HAVE THE TWO ANCIENT WORLDS SPEAKING TO EACH OTHER THROUGH THE BOOK OF JOB. IT'S ODD IT'S ONE OF THE LAST BOOKS OF THE NEW TESTAMENTS WRITTEN, IT'S ONE THE NEWEST PIECES OF LITERATURE AND IT'S ALMOST AS IF THE MONDAY KNEETHEISTS ARE ADREGS THE POLLYTHISTS AND SAYING WE CAN GO TOE-TO-TOE WITH YOU. WHEN WE GET TO THE NEW TESTAMENT, WE HAVE THE HERO WHO THE SON OF A GOOD WHO'S VERY MUCH LIKE HERECLES OR APOLO AND WHOSE STORY FOLLOWS VERY MUCH THE SAME PATTERN AND HE BEATS DEATH, JUST LIKE THE HEROES THAT YOU HAVE IN OVID'S METAMORPHOSIS IN THE HOUSE OF PERCIUS.

Mary says CATHERINE'S ON THE LINE FROM HALTON HILLS. CATHERINE?

The Caller says HELLO.

Mary says HELLO.

The Caller says IT'S FUNNY, I'VE ALWAYS LIKED MYTHOLOGY AS A CHILD BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I WENT TO UNIVERSITY AS A BIOCHEMISTRY AND CALCULUS MAJOR THAT ATOOK A COURSE IN GREAT WESTERN LITERATURE AND I FELL IN LOVE WITH THE CLASSICS AND PLATO'S REPUBLIC AND DANTE'S DIVINE COMEDY REALLY DID IT FOR ME SO I STWOICHD CLASSICS MARRIAGE I DON'T REMEMBER AND THEN DIVINITY BECAUSE I LOVED MEDIEVAL AND ANCIENT THEOLOGY.

Bruce says THE KING'S COLLEGE PROGRAMME IS WONDERFUL. YOU'RE VERY LUCKY TO HAVE TAKEN THAT.

The Caller says OH, YEAH, TO I LOVED IT VERY MUCH AND I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT WILL TO ANYBODY. ONE OF MY FUNNIEST STORIES, THOUGH, I REMEMBER I MET A BUSINESS STUDENT AT A PARTY ONCE AND THEY SAID WHAT ARE YOU STUDYING AND I SAID CLASSICS AND THEY SAID WHAT GOOD IS THAT THAT? THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NOW. AND I SAID WELL WHAT ARE YOU STUDYING? HE SAID BUSINESS, I SAID DO YOU LIKE IT? HE SAID WELL NO, BUT I'LL LAKE MA LOT OF MONEY. AND I SAID, I LIKE IT.

Bruce says IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH NOW. I ALWAYS THINK IF YOU REALLY TO WANT EQUIP YOURSELF IN THE WORLD WITH THE INFORMATION AND THE HUMANE VALUE THAT WILL ENABLE YOU TO BE A GOOD PROBLEM SOLVER IN THIS LIFE, THE TRICK IS TO READ THE CLASSIC, PREPARE YOURSELF. PEOPLE READ THEM FOR THOUSAND OF YEARS, KINGS, POLITICIAN, SO FARR, IT'S THE THING THEY NEED TO EQUIP THEMSELVES AND IT'S THE DIFFERENCE SAY BETWEEN JOHN F. KENNEDY AS A PRESIDENT, INSPIRATIONAL FIGURE CAN SAY THE CURRENT PRESIDENT. IT'S THE DIFFERENCE, IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION BUT THE WELL-ROUNDED INDIVIDUAL, SUCCESSFUL INDIVIDUAL AND THE INDIVIDUAL WHO CAN TAKE THEMSELVES THE FARTHEREST IS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS PREPARED BECAUSE THEY NOT ONLY KNOW THE BACKGROUND THAT ALL THESE BOOKS PROVIDE BUT HE UNDERSTAND HOW IT RELATES TO THEIR OWN TIME, THEIR OWN CONTEST.

Mary says WELL IT'S INTERESTING, SINCE YOU BRING UP LEADERS AND JOHN F. CONTENDER, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EONID WHICH IS ONE OF YOUR PICKS. IT ME THAT THAT SEEMS LIKE THE PERFECT STORY.

Bruce says SURE, IT'S ABOUT RELATION, THOUGH AND I ALWAYS THINK OF POOR BILL CLINTON. WHEN HE WAS IMPEACHED IT WAS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT MISDEMEANORS ABOUT CIGARS, HE WAS ON THE BLOCK BECAUSE HE FAILED TO LIVE UP TO THE AENIS COMPLEX. HE'S THE HERO OF OENID. HE'S ONE THE LAST SURVIVING PRINCES OF TROY AND HE KEEPS BEING PLUCKED OFF THE BATTLEFIELD IN THE OENID BY DIFFERENT GODESSES AND SO FORTH AND VENUS APHRODITE KEEPS PLUCKING HIM OFF THE BATTLEFIELD AS HE'S ABOUT TO BE KILLED. HE ENDS UP AT ONE POINT WITH A BROKEN LEG IN BED. "HOW I DID GET HERE?" WELL IT'S NOT YOUR TIME YET, SON. YOU HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO AND WHAT HE DOES IS GOES OUT AND FOUNDS A NATION BUT HE'S THE ARCHETYPEAL GENERAL HERO PRINCE SORT OF STATESMAN LEADER WHO IS IN FACT ALMOST STIFF AS A CHARACTER BECAUSE HE'S SO MORALLY PERFECT. HE'S THE MODEL FOR SIR GALAHAD, FOR EXAMPLE, THE LEADING KNIGHT OF CAMELOT AS A LEADER WHAT HE DOES IS REFOUNDS TROIS. HE GOES IN SEARCH OF THE LOCATION OF THE SEVEN HILL EXAMINES WHERE DOES HE FIND? VIRGIL NEVER ACTUALLY FINISHED THE OENID BUT IT'S IMPLIED HE'S GOING TO FOUND A PLACE WITH SEVEN HILLS WHICH WOULD BE ROAM AND ROAM IS IN FACT THE NEW TROY AND IT'S FORETOLD THE CITY WITH SEVEN HILLS WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD. SO ALONG COME THE FATHERS WAS THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO REALLY SORT OF START THIS NEW NATION, AND THEY SAID WHY DON'T WE MAKE THE UNITED STATES INTO A NEW TROY AND THEY LOOK AT NEW YORK CITYSAY NEW YORK, DOESN'T HAVE SEVEN HILLS NEITHER DOES PHILADELPHIA OR BOSTON AND THEY GO UP AND DOWN THE SEABOARD AND GEORGE WASHINGTON POINT OUT TO THEM, I SURVEYED A PIECE OF LAND UP THE PATOMEK RIVER, IT'S SWAMP BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE EVERYTHING BUT IT'S SURROUNDED BY THE SEVEN HILLS AND THEY PUT THE CITY OF THE WASHINGTON OF THE UNITED STATES INTO A SWAMP. PSYCHOLOGICALLY THE FOUNDING BOOK BEHIND THE AMERICAN NATION IS REALLY THE EONID AND REALLY ALL OF THE POPULOUS DEVOTERS ARE CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR A LEADER WHO'S GOING LIVE YOU WANT TO OENIS QUALIFICATIONS. DWIGHT EISENHOWER, SOLDDER, JOHN F. KENNEDY, WAR HERO AND SO FORTH, AND THEY HAVE TO BE HANDSOME, STRONG, MORALLY UP RIGHT, POUR RALLY CORRECT, AND SO FORTH. THEY CAN'T LET DOWN THE POPULOUS AND SO FORTH. AND THEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT WELL ISN'T THAT INTERESTING THAT THERE'S THIS DIFFERENCE THERE, AND IF YOU YOU LOOK AT WASHINGTON D.C. IT'S ESSENTIALLY ROAM REBUILT. THEY HAVE TEMPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. GO UP AND DOWN THE MALL AND NATIONAL GALLERY AND THINGS AND THEN YOU THINK WELL WHAT'S THE FOUNDING BOOK BEHIND CANADA IN AND IT OF COURSE IT'S THE QUEST OF THE HOLY GREAT. WE CAME OUT THE VAN ERA DURING THE REVIVAL OF A LOT OF THE MEDIEVAL IDEAS AND SO FORTH. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, IT'S ALL MEDIEVAL ARCHITECTURE BUT IN THE DIFFERENCE, THE ROMANCE STORIES, BASED ON THE OENID BUT DIFFERENCE IS YOU ONLY HAVE ONE PERFECT NIGHT, SIR... PERFECT KNIGHT, SIR GALAHAD AND HE'S A LONG SHOT AND BECAUSE HE'S A LONG SHOT, ALL THE OTHER NIGHTS ARE FALLABLE IN SOME WAY SO WE TEND TO ACCEPT FALL ABILITY IN OUR LEADERS BECAUSE THEY'RE FROM THE POOL.

Mary says I WAS GOING ASK YOU ABOUT FATAL FLAWS BUT LET'S HOLD THAT. WE'VE GOT ANOTHER CALLER HERE. MEGAN IS ON THE LINE.

The Caller says HELLO?

Mary says HI, GO AHEAD.

The Caller says WELL, ONE BOOK THAT PIF NEVER READ THAT I WANTED TO WAS YOU'LL HIS CEASE. THE COMMENT I WANTED TO MAKE WAS MORE AND MORE IN THE SCHOOLS THEY ARE NOT STUDYING THIS AND MY CHILD WANTED TO TAKE LATIN BECAUSE SHE FELT IT WAS THE ROOT, AND IT WASN'T OFFERED AND I SEE THIS AS A PART OF THE BREAKDOUVE OUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BECAUSE WHEN I TALK TO MY MOTHER ABOUT THE CLASSICS I STUDIED, IT WAS A LINK BETWEEN SOMETHING THAT MAYBE EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A GENERATION GAP WEKT TALK ABOUT BOOK WE BOTH STUDIED AND IT DREW US CLOSER AND IT'S TOO BAD SOME OF OUR SCHOOLS ARE NOT GIVING THAT OPPORTUNITY TO CHILDREN.

Mary says ABSOLUTELY. LET'S TALK FIRST OF ALL, BRUCE, ABOUT THE LATIN ASPECT. I THINK THREE OF YOUR PICKS WERE ORIGINALLY WRITTEN IN LATIN STB.

Bruce says THE OVIDSMAN, METAPHORE OF SIS AND VIRGIL, I MEAN, YOU CAN THROW IN THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE IS TRANSLATED BY St. JAROME TO LATIN. I THINK IT IS A SHAME, THOUGH, THAT WE REALLY AREN'T CONNECTING OUR STUDENTS TO IT THE ROOTS OF THEIR CULTURE I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING BEING LOST AND IT'S NOT SORT OF THE JUST THE ENTOMOLOGY YOU GET IN LATIN THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT A WORD AND USE IT FOR THE LATINAED WORDS, THESE RVELY COMPOUND WORD, THE ACT OF TRANSPORTATION, IT'S NOT JUST A FACT THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT A WORD AND UNDERSTAND IT, AND UNDERSTAND SAY LEGAL OR MEDAL VOLK BRIE, IT'S THE FACT THAT SOMEHOW AT THE ROOT OF ALL THIS WE'RE MISSING THE CONNECTION OF THE STORY, HOPING WE'RE GOING GET IT THROUGH CONTEMPORARY WORKS BUT THERE'S A SENSE WE'VE LOST THE CONTINUUM OR THE CONNECTION. IN FACT THESE ARE OLD STORE HES, THAT THEY'VE MEANT SOMETHING NOT JUST THEN BUT THEY MEAN SOMETHING NOW AND THERE'S A SENSE THEY CONTINUE TO MEAN SOMETHING.

Mary says I WANT TO ASK YOU AS WELL, I MENTIONED EARLIER WHEN WE WERE IN HIGHSCHOOL, GIVEN SOME CLASSICS AND MOST OF US, WE'D BALK AT. OH MY GOSH, I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THIS, NOT INTERESTED, NOT ACCESSIBLE. IN SOME WAYS DO YOU THINK THAT THE CLASSICS ARE WASTED ON THE YOUNG?

Bruce says I DON'T KNOW. I RE-READ THE ODYSSEY WHEN I GOT DOWN TO ST. LUCIA ON A HOLIDAY AND I WAS ALSO READING THE POETRY OF DEREK WALCOTT THE NOBLE PRIZE WIN.

Mary says HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Bruce says THIS WAS A FEW YEARS AGO.

Mary says PAST BEING A STUDENT.

Bruce says PAST BEING A STUDENT AND I SUDDENLY REALISED HEY, WALCOTT'S WRITING... HE'S BORROWED THE ODYSSEY BUT HE'S WRITING ABOUT WHAT HE SEES AROUND HIM. AND YOU THINK ABOUT JOYCE AND HER EXAMPLE WAS ULYSSES AND JOYCE IS WRITING ABOUT WHAT'S AROUND HIM, RE-TELLING THE STORY OF THE ODYSSEY ON JUNE 6th, 1985 AS LEOPOLD BLOOM WALKS AROUND DUBLIN IN THE COURSE OF A SINGLE DAY, AND HE'S SAYING THAT DUBLIN IS THE WORLD. AND IT PUTS A DIFFERENT SPIN ON THE WAY STUDENTS SEE THEIR OWN WORLD, THEIR OWN, INTERPRET THEIR OWN CONTEXTS AND LOCATIONS.

Mary says BUT AS MY POINT. YOU WERE OLERUD AND...

Bruce says I THINK AT A POINT IT'S A SHAME WE DON'T INTRODUCE THEM TO THE YOUNG.

Mary says IS IT THE WAY WE INTRODUCE IT THEN? IS THAT WHAT TURNS US OFF IN.

Bruce says I WAS LUCK TEA AT HIGH SKOORBLGS I TOOK A COURSE CALLED HUMANITIES AND ONLY OFFERED ONE YEAR, IT WAS AN EXPERIMENT AT SCHOOL AND WE DID THE ODYSSEY AND WE DID THE THEORIES OF BENJAMIN LEE WHATEVER AND ALL SORTS OF INTERESTING THINGS THAT GOT FLEEN THIS COURSE BUT I REMEMBER THAT TRIGGERING A LOT OF IDEAS BUT I GOT ALL THE WAY THROUGH A Ph.D IN ENGLISH AND I WAS ON A POST DOC AND I WAS BUSY TALKING TO A FRIEND OF MINE, WHO'S A PACK TANNI BRITISH BRAZILIAN WRITER WHO LIVES IN TEXAS AND WE WERE SITTING IN AUSTIN TEXAS, ETDZ YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN A GIFT FROM THE GODSES ON YOUR POST DOC. WHILE YOU'RE TRAVELLING AND DOING RESEARCH TAKE THE CLASSICS WITH YOU AND RE-READ THEM. AND I SAID WHY? AND HE SAYS YOU'LL SEE ONCE YOU START REREADING THEM AND EVERYTHING IN MY HEAD INDICATION STARTED TO COME TOGETHER AT THAT POINT. READING ALL THE THINGS THAT I HAD READ BUT HADN'T MADE THE CONNECTIONS WITH SUDDENLY SHAKESPEARE...

Mary says YOU MEAN CONNECTIONS ALL OVER, RIGHT? FROM ONE STORY TO ANOTHER, ONE BOOK TO ANOTHER?

Bruce says ONE STORY TO ANOTHER AND THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN HISTORY AND THE WORLD AND ARE CONTINUING TO HAPPEN IN SOCIETY.

Mary says I THINK THAT'S CALLED ENLIGHTENMENT, ACTUALLY.

Bruce says WELL I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS BUT IT WAS A MIND-BLOWING EXPERIENCE BECAUSE SUDDENLY I DIDN'T FEEL THERE WERE AS MANY GAPS IN MY EDUCATION AND I THINK STUDENTS FEEL COMING OUT OF THEIR EDUCATION THAT IT JUST WASN'T TIME SPENT, IT WAS TIME WELL-SPENT.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL. CAROL ON THE LINE FROM TORONTO.

The Caller says HI, HOW ARE YOU. I'M ENJOYING YOUR DISCUSSION.

Mary says OH, GREAT.

The Caller says I TOOK A COURSE IN UNIVERSITY, TOO, AND I NEVER WOULD HAVE READ THE CLASSICS AND I'M RE-READING THEM AND I'M GIVING THEM TO MY SON. WHEN HE WAS 1512 YEARS OLD I STARTED HIM WITH FRANKENSTEIN AND A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO HE READ ONE OF MY FAVOURITES, WHICH IS THE ONE I'M CALLING ABOUT, ROBINSON CARUSO, AND THAT WAS SORT OF THE STORY OF SURVIVAL THAT'S ON TV. YOU KNOW THE TV SHOW NOW? IT'S SORT OF BEFORE IT AIM ON AS A TV SHOW, MAN AGAINST NATURE, EXCITING, ONLY A FEW CHARACTERS BUT A REALLY GOOD CLASSIC FOR ADULTS AND CHILDREN. ENCOURAGES TRAVEL AND BEING INDEPENDENT AND TELLS YOU THAT YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT TO IF YOU PUT YOUR MIND TO IT AND IT SORT OF GOES AGAINST MATERIALISM THAT WE HAVE SOME OF IN THE WORLD NOW, AND IT JUST... IT SHOWS YOU THAT YOU DON'T NEED A LOT TO SURVIVE.

Mary says THAT'S A GOOD CONNECTION SHE MAKES. THERE WAS A THE SURVIVOR REALITY SHOWS LIKE ROBINSON Crusoe.

Bruce says WELL THERE ARE THESE WONDERFUL CONNECTIONS. WE THINK THAT WE'RE GETTING THINGS FIRST HAND WHEN WE TURN ON OUR TV AND WE'RE REALLY NOT. YOU KNOW, JUST BEFORE THE SHOW I WAS TALKING TO ONE OF THE PRODUCERS AND THEY SAID, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S A MODERN OEDIPUS STORY AND I SAID WELL PSYCHO, PSYCHE COAST NORMAN BATES IS OEDIPUS.

Mary says I DON'T THINK HE'S HEROIC, IS HE?

Bruce says NO, HE'S NOT HEROIC, HE'S psycho.

Mary says OKAY, HE DID LOVE HIS MOTHER, ALL RIGHT.

Bruce says SO THERE'S THESE WEIRD HE CAN COAST OF THINGS CAN THEN YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE OVID'S METAPHORE OF SIS AND THERE ARE HORRIFIC PORTIONS AND YOU THINK WHERE DO WE SEE THIS? WELL THE ROCK INDIVIDUAL ANDOS SO FORTH. LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE WESTERNS AND YOU THINK WHERE DOES THE WESTERN COME FROM? PARTIALLY IN THE OENID BUT ALSO IN THE STORY OF HERCULES. HERCULES IS BY THE WAY FIRST COWBOY WITH. HE RAISES CATTLE FOR A LIVING WHEN HE'S NOT OFF DOING HIS 12 LABOURS AND THINGS. SO THERE'S A WONDERFUL. SO THERE'S CONNECTION. I'D HATE TO SAY THIS BUT THERE REALLY ISN'T ALL THAT MUCH THAT'S ORIGINAL OUT THERE.

Mary says WELL AS I SAID, THE FIVE PLOTS.

Bruce says O WHERE ART THOU IS QUITE A BLATANT RETELLING OF THE ODYSSEY BUT ON A MUCH MORE FINITE POINT, THE VERSION OF THINGS WHEN YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE GOING ON A LONG QUEST OR JOURNEY, THERE'S CARTOONS THAT I WATCH, A BUNCH OF FROGS TRYING TO GET TO TOAD HOLLY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT WITH MY FIVE YEAR OLD DAUGHTER AND I LOOK THAT THE AND THAT'S THE QUESTION OF...

Mary says TOMD OAD HALL IS THAT WIND IN THE WILLOWS.

Bruce says NO, YOU I FORGET THE NAME ABOUT IT BUT I WATCH WITH MY DAUGHTER. IT'S A QUEST STORY OUT OF MEDIEVAL ROMANCE WHICH IS OUT OF... IT'S SHAME WE DON'T HAVE THEM BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF BEING ABLE TO WALK INTO AN ART GALLERY AND SORT OF SAY THAT'S A PICTURE OF SUCH AND SUCH. IT'S THE SENSE THAT SHOUN A MUCH MORE... NOT SO MUCH INSIDIOUS LEVEL BUT A MUCH MORE PERMEATING LEVEL THESE THINGS ARE ACTIVE IN OUR DAILY LIVES. WE DON'T REALISE.

Mary says I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE IDEA OF FLAW AS WELL. THE TRAGIC FLAW. DO ALL OR MOST OF THE BIG HEROES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, DO THEY HAVE A TRAGIC FLAW?

Bruce says THEY DO. IT'S A SHAPE. THEY HAVE COMMITMENT PROBLEMS. POOR THESIS, EVENTUALLY HE LEAVES ARIADNIE ON A ROCK. HERECLES JUST AS HE'S FINISHED HIS 12 LABOURS, HE COMES ALONG AND GOES COMPLETELY BERSERK, IS IS DRIVEN MAD BY THE GODS AND KILLS HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN. AND THEY'RE EITHER HOMICIDE AL OR...

Mary says WHAT ABOUT Oedipus.

Bruce says WELL OEDIPUS IS REALLY A WONDERFUL CASE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T KNOW HIMSELF AND IT'S THAT CENTRAL FLAW, THE TRAGIC FLAW THAT'S THERE THAT HE CAN'T QUITE OVERCOME. IT'S THE FLAW OF SELF KNOWLEDGE AND HE STARTS MAKING PRONOUNCEMENTS, YOU KNOW, WHO EVER MURDERED LERETESE AND SO FORTH, THE TOMORROW HE WERE KING, HAS TO BE BANNISHED AND SO FORTH AND SOMEONE COMES UP AND TAPS HIM ON THE SHOULDER AND SAYS BY THE WAY, YOU MARRIED YOUR FATHER, YOUR MOTHER, AND NOW YOU HAVE TO BE BAN NIRBED FROM YOUR KINGDOM AND THIS IS MUCH MORE THAN HIS MOTHER CAN STAND AND BE SHE GOES AND GOES OUT AND HANGS HERSELF. HE CAN'T STAND THE SORRY SPECTACLE, THE YOU KNOW THE WHOLE IDEA OF WHAT'S AT THE ROOT OF THE TRAGEDY, THAT YOU'RE WITNESSING SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SIMPLY LOOK AT, YOU TURN AWAY FROM, ACCORDING TO THE AIR STOL STOT TELL AND HE BLINDS HIMSELF WITH HIS WIFE'S MOTHER'S APPROACH. AND SUDDENLY HE REALISES HIS CHILDREN ARE ABOMINATIONS OF NATURE. HE'S GOT FOUR CHILDREN. TWO OF THEM GO AT EACH OTHER IN A CIVIL WAR THAT Des DESTROYS THE NATION. ONE CHILD STAYS BEHIND AND THE OTHER ONE, ANTIGONY LEADS HER BLIND TEAR THROUGH THE WORLD AND EVENTUALLY HERSELF BECOMES A TRAGIC HERRON... HY ROWINE.

Mary says I WOULD SAY THAT'S THE BEST-KNOWN OF ALL... BUT ALSO HEARD OF IT AS BEING A PERFECTLY STRUCTURED PLAY. WOULD YOU AGREE?

Bruce says IT ALL TAKES PLACE IN THE YOU KNOWTY OF TIME AND SPACE. ARISTOTLE SAYS THERE IS IS THIS UNITY OF TIME AND SPACE BUT THERE'S ALSO ALL THESE ELEMENTS THERE PLOT, CHARACTER, THOUGHT, SPECTACLE, SONG AND DICTION AND WHEN YOU PUT ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS TOGETHER THEY MAKE FOR THE PERFECT PLAY AND THEY'RE ALL PRESENT IN HE'S SOPHOCLES. LATER THEY START LOOK AT SOLVE ANDREES SAY IF THAT'S THE SIX ELEMENTS, WHAT CAN WE DO WITHOUT. SO WHEN SHAKESPEARE SITS DOWN TO WRITE HAMLET, YES, HAMLET HAS THE CENTRAL FLAW OF NOT BEING ABLE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH WHAT HE HAS TO DO, SX ACTION AND SO FORTH BUT WHAT SHAKESPEARE THROWS OUT ARE THINGS LIKE PLOT AND HAMLET END UP BEING ABOUT CHARACTER AND THOUGHT AND DICTION AND HE LEAVES THE SPECTACLE TO THE LAST ACT, YOU END UP WITH FIVE DEAD BODIES ON THE STAGE WHICH IS A PRODUCER'S NIGHTMARE, HOW DO YOU GET THE DEAD BODIES OFF THE STAGE. SO HE STARTS THROWING THEM OUT. LATER WRITERS START ELIMINATING THESE ELEMENTS TO SEE WHAT THEY CAN DO WITHOUT. SO THEY HAVE PLAYS WHERE THEY'RE JUST ABOUT DICTION, ABOUT PEOPLE SPEAKING AND SO FORTH AND IT'S ALMOST DRAMA BUT REALLY, SOPHOCLES' OEDIPUS IS ONE OF THE MOST DEFINING IN NATURE, BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT BLINDNESS, HUBEROUS AND NOT KNOWING WHO HER...

Mary says SORRY, AND HOW OFTEN DO WE HEAR REFERENCES TO THOSE IN THE NEWSPAPERS, IN POPULAR LITERATURE? WE HEAR THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT LEADERS TODAY, ALL THOSE QUALITIES, DON'T WE?

Bruce says YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT. AND YOU ALWAYS WONDER, WHEN SOMEONE IS VERY CLOSE TO THEIR MOTHER IS IT AN OEDIPUS COMPLEX, AND FREUD NAMES IT FOR THAT, PSYCHO ANALYSIS IN THE 20th CENTURY. SO THESE BOK BOOKS CONTINUE TO PERMEATE OUR SOCIETY.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL. SANDRA'S ON THE LINE FROM TORONTO.

The caller says HELLO. THIS CONVERSATION IS JUST FASCINATING TO KNEE, AS A STORY TELLER, I WORK AS A STORY TELLER IN SCHOOLS AND JUST GENERALLY OUT THERE BUT THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF US ACROSS CANADA RE-TELLING THE HELP PICKS AND I THINK THAT IT IS INCREDIBLY POWERFUL TO HEAR THE STORIES RETOLD. WE'RE RE-TELLING THE ODYSSEY HERE AT THOMPSON LIBRARY, 24 TERM, 24 BOOKS OF THE ODYSSEY AND WE'RE GOING TO BE TELLING FOR FIVE NIGHTS AND ONE FULL SATURDAY. FOUR BOOKS PER SAYS. IT'S AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE TO ACTUALLY BE PART OF THIS.

Bruce says THAT SOUNDS GREAT.

The caller says AND WE'VE DONE THIS IN THE PAST IN THE OUTDOORS AND CAMPED OUT AND DONE A WHOLE WEEKEND TELLING AND THE STORIES COME ALIVE IN A WAY THAT... I MEAN, WE'RE STANDING THERE WEEPING OVER THESE PASSAGE OF THE ELIAD, WE FORGET THESE ARE LIVE, TOLD STORIES IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM.

Bruce says ORIGINALLY THEY WERE SUNG ON A PERFORMANCE BASE SAYS.

Mary says YEAH, THE GREEK TRAJ DAY.

Bruce says PERFORMANCE PIECES THAT WOULD TAKE 24 HOURS, 16 TO 24 HOURS TO PRESENT AND THEY WERE AFTER DINNER ENTERTAINMENTS AND RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ODYSSEY, AROUND ABOUT BOOK EIGHT, AS KING AL SINUS IS ENTERTAINING THIS SHIPWRECKED SAILOR CAN WAUMPBED UP ON THE BEACH AND HIS OUR SAYS DADDY LOOK WHAT I FOUND WHILE I WAS OUT BEACH COMBING AND SHE SHOWS UP WITH ODESIUX WHILE THEY'RE SITTING THERE ENTERTAINING THEM A POET WALKS IN AND STARTS SAKE PASSAGE FROM THE ELIAD AND OEDISIS STARTS WEEP AND HE SAYS I'M THE GUY IN THE STORY AND IT'S A MARVELOUS AND MOVING MOMENT AND THE KING SAYS "CAN YOU TELL US THE STORY?" SO OEDISIUS LAUNCHES IN TO TELL THE STORY WHICH IS THE ACTUAL ODYSSEY.

Mary says WHY DID HOMER WANT THE ODYSSEY BURNED? WHY WAS HE NOT HAPPY WITH IT?

Bruce says I HAVE ENOUGH IDEA. IP NOT... I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT STORY.

Mary says I READ THAT, THAT HE WASN'T HAPPY WITH THE RESULT.

Bruce says NOBODY'S HAPPY. I MEAN VIRGIL...

Mary says NOBODY'S HAPPY.

Bruce says VIRGIL DIDN'T WANT THE OENID TO SURVIVE. HE WANTED IT BURNED AT THE TIME HIS DEATH...

Mary says OH, WAIT A SEB, MAYBE I'M GETTING IT MIXED UP. IT WAS VIGIL.

Bruce says HE WANTED IT BURNED AND HE WROTE 12 LINES EVERYDAY. ONE OF HIS FRIENDS SAVED IT AND SAID HEY, THIS IS GOD THEY STARTED MAKING COPIES OF IT AND STARTED CIRCULATING IT TO AUGUSTUS WHO HAD BEEN READING IT ALONG THE WAY.

Mary says AUGUSTUS CAESAR?

Bruce says AUGUSTUS CAESAR. HE SAID THIS IS GREAT. THIS IS THE THING WE NEED TO TEACH YOUNG ROMAN BOYS ABOUT, HOW TO BE ROMAN, MAIRG GONES, IT REALLY SETS UP AN IDEA OF LEADERSHIP THAT'S GOING TO BE CONTRADICTED BY MACHIAVELLI WHEN HE WAS GOING TO BE THE PRINCE BUT WHEN YOU THINK BACK OF HOW THE OENID REALLY IMPACTS ON THE UNITED STATES THINK OF WHAT'S ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH THE KENNEDY ERA. CAMELOT. CAM SLOT THE CENTRE OF A REBORN TROY. RE-BORN ROME, AS IT WERE AND THE ROMANCE STORIES ARE REALLY THE REITERATION OF THE ROMAN STORY.

Mary says I BET YOU THINK CLASSICS SHOULD BE MANDATORY FOR ALL POLITICAL LEADERS.

Bruce says FOR PLASTIC? PLZ FOR POLITICAL LEADERS.
OH, YES, YES.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL. JOE IS ON THE LINE FROM MISSISSAUGA. HI JOE.

The caller says HI THERE.
ONE POINT THAT'S ALWAYS STUCK WITH ME WAY BACK OVER THE YEARS WAS SHAKESPEARE, MACBETH AND PART OF IT, I'M SURE OF THE WAY IT WAS TAUGHT AND THE WAY THE TEACHER APPROACHED IT, SHOWING US POLANSKI'S VERSION OF IT AND SO ON BUT THE OTHER IS THAT THEME, QUEST FOR POWER AND THE STORIES YOU JUST MENTION, YOU QUOTE MACHIAVELLI AND OTHERS THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE TOLD THAT STORY OF THAT ALMOST RUTHLESS OR IMMORAL PURSUIT FOR POWER. SO IT'S QUITE INTERESTING BUT FOR SOME REASON MACBETH ALWAYS STANDS OUT FOR ME.

Mary says I'D LIKE TO KNOW YOUR ANSWER TO THAT. THAT'S A GOOD POINT BECAUSE WE HAVE PROFESSOR ALEXANDER LEGGATT ON, AN AUTHORITY ON SHAKESPEARE HE'S SAYING THAT THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST POPULAR OF PLACE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. WE TAKE IT UP IN HIGHSCHOOL AND LOVE IT.

Bruce says I REMEMBER DOING MACBETH AT JUNIOR HIGHSCHOOL AND ALL THE WITCHES WERE DRESSED UP IN GLAD GARBAGE BAGS, YOU KNOW? AND I THOUGHT WELL, SHOULD BE SCOTTISH AND ENDED UP IN MY MOTHER'S SKATING SKIRT. A BIG MISTAKE.

Mary says WAS IT A KILT?

Bruce says IT WAS A KILT, YEAH. KIDS, IF YOU'RE GOING DO MACBETH, DON'T USE YOUR MOTHER'S SKATING SKIRT. ANYWAY, THE IT'S ABOUT THE STRUG GELG BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, HOW EVIL GETS THE BALL ROLLING AND ONCE IT STARTS ROLLING YOU CAN'T TOP AND SLEERBL IT'S THE HEART OF BAD LEADERSHIP. HE TRIES TO BE A GOOD LEADER, BUT EVERYTHING'S STACKED AGAINST HIM. THAT LINE, A TALE TOLD BY AN IDIOT FULL OF SOUND AND FURY, SIGNIFYING NOTHING. AND IT'S POTENTIALLY ABOUT A SOCIETY THAT SEEM TO BE EMPTY AT THE CORE, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING IT AREN'T DOING IT FOR THE BEST INTENTION, THEY'RE DOING IT FOR PERSONAL INTENTIONS. A SCOTTISH TRAGEDY.

Mary says AND TELL ME HOW THAT PLAY INFLUENCED FUTURE GENERATIONS OF WRITER. CAN YOU MAKE A LINK NOW TO PRESENT DAY MODERN WRITING AND.

Bruce says WHENEVER WE SEE BAD GUYS, THE OTHER PLAY VERY CLOSE TO THAT IS RICHARD III WHICH IS BASED ON THOMAS MOORE WHO WROTE OUT OPEN TOIA. HE WAS A POP GAND DAIST FOR THE TUDOR GOVERNMENT FOR HEN REEM TU. DOR. HE WRETT A RUFFLE... ACTUALLY NOT WONDERFUL, RAL TRASH JOB ON RICHARD THE 3rd AND THAT'S WHAT SHAKESPEARE USED. WHEN SHAKESPEARE WANTED TO WRITE A PLAY ABOUT THE "MACHIAVELLI-TYPE LEADER, SOMEONE WHO WAS WILLING TO BUCK ALL THE MORAL PRE ACCEPTS IN SOCIETY OR WILLING TO BUCK THE OENIS SOCIETY, AS IT WERE IN THE EXPECTATIONS OF A LEADER HE TURNED TO MOORE'S DESCRIPTION OF RICHARD THE 3rd. WELL THEN IN FACT MACBETH TURNS IT UP AS THE ARCHETYPE PAL MACHIAVEL BUT RICHARD THE THIRD HAS INTENTION DRIVE HIM. MACBETH SEEMS TO BE ALMOST PULLED ALONG BY EVENTS HE'S SET IN MOTION AND HE HAS HIS OWN DOUBTS ABOUT IT AND SO FORTH AND HE THINKS WELL, I'M HOME AND SAFE BECAUSE VERNON WOOD'S NOT GOING TO COME AND SUDDENLY THE BUSHES START MOVING, AND HE'S LIKE OH, DAMN.

Mary says HERE WE GO.

Bruce says HERE WE GO. THIS IS NOT GOOD.

Mary says I GOT TO ASK YOU, WHAT ABOUT MODERN LITERATURE? ARE YOU A FAN...

Bruce says I'M A FAN OF MODERN LITERATURE. I DID MY DOCTORATE IN THE 20th CENTURY BRITISH LITERATURE AND I STARTED READING BACKWARDS AS A RESULT, AND AS SAY SAY TRYING FILL IN THE HOLES IN MY OWN EDUCATION.

Mary says IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A MODERN DISPLAVEG.

Bruce says I THINK THERE ARE. JOYCE'S ULYSSES, TONY MORRISON'S "JAZZ" IS A TREMENDOUS BOOK.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT Catcher IN THE RYE?

Bruce says Catcher in THE RYE IS INTERESTING BECAUSE EVERY TIME I RE-READ IT I'M PUZZLED BY IT BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT SOMEONE WHO'S SORT OF SO DEDISPACHD LOOKING IN AT SOMEONE, ALMOST AS IF SALINGER STOOD BACK AND SAID I DON'T WANT TO WRITE ABOUT A HERO I WANT TO WRITE ABOUT AN ANTI-HERO AND THE ANTI-HERO IS REALLY SOMEONE WHO TURNS YOU WANT IN 20th CENTURY THROUGH SOMEONE LIKE LEOPOLD BLOOM AND YOU'LL LIES CEASE, BUCKING THE TREND OF WHAT WE EXPECT FROM HERO. DEATH OF A SALESMAN IS THE ARCHETYPEAL ANTIHERO. HE'S SOMEONE WHO IS NOT PARTICULARLY IN THE BOLT OF PERFECTION AFFECTION.

Mary says DOUNGHT ANTI-HEREARY WILL SUR SFLIVE.

Bruce says THING WILL. AS ARTHUR MILLER POINT OUT IN A WONDERFUL ESSAY ON THE NOTION OF TRAGEDY AND ON "DEATH OF A SALESMAN" HE SAYS WE IDENTIFY WITH THE ANTI-HEROES BECAUSE THEY LACK MORE LIKE US. THE NOTION OF THE GOLD-PLATED GALAHAD-TYPE HEREARY REALLY VANISHED OF WORLD WAR ONE AND VANISHED IN THE TRENCHES AND YOU CAN SEE IT VANISHING IN THE POETRY OF WILFRED OWEN, WHERE THE TWO CHARACTERS OF THE POEM MEET UP IN HELL AND THEY'RE TALKING TO EACH OTHER IN WHAT SHOULD BE THAT SORT OF HAIR ROGUE... THEY'RE SUPPOSEDED TO BE RESURRECT ASKED THEY'RE NOT AND THERE'S A SENSE THAT SOMEHOW I THINK WE SEE OURSELVES IN CHARACTERS WHO ARE MOST LIKE US AND THINK THAW REASSURES US AND LOCATES US NOT ONLY IN LITERATURE IN THE PAST, IT TAKES US TO THE PRESENT.

Mary says WONDERFUL DISCUSSION. CAN'T COVER IT ALL IN 40 MINUTES, THOUGH, BRUCE. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME BACK.

Bruce says LOVE TO.

Mary says THANKS SO MUCH. BRUCE MEYER THE PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, HIS LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "THE GOLDEN THREAD, A READER'S ADJOURN NEA THROUGH THE GREAT BOOKS." AND EVERYBODY WHO MADE IT AIR TODAY GETS A COPY OF THE BOOK. CONGRATULATION. IF YOU'D LIKE MORE INFORMATION...

A slate reads "Great Books. 416-926-7254. www.utoronto.ca/stmikes."

Mary continues AND IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE-FOR-ING YOURSELF FOLLOW READ THE CLASSICS, IMAGINE BEING A TEEVEER. EVERY YEAR 3400 FRAZZLED TEACHERS FROM ONTARIO GATHER FOR A CONFERENCE CALLED READING FOR THE LOVE OF IT. THEIR CHANCE TO SHARE NEW WAYS TO GET KIDS EXCITED ABOUT BOOKS BUT THERE'S ALSO TIME FOR SOME COMIC RELIEF AND THAT'S WHERE WRITER LYNNWOOD BARCLAY COMES IN. TVO'S IMPRINT WAS THERE TO SEE HIS PERFORMANCE.

A clip plays on screen. At a large dinner gathering, hundreds of people sit around large round tables and look towards a stage. Linwood stands behind a lectern on the stage and speaks. He's in his forties clean-shaven, with short gray hair.

He says NOW I SUPPOSE I SHOULD EXPLAIN WHY SOMEONE LIKE ME IS SPEAKING TO FOLKS LIKE YOU. I DON'T HAVE ANY OF YOUR EXPERTISE. I'M NOT A TEACHER I DO HAVE A COUPLE OF QUALIFICATIONS, I SUPPOSE. FIRST OF ALL, I AM MARRIED TO A TEACHER MY WIFE IS A KINDER GARLT TEN TEACH, AND I ALWAYS THOUGHT MY WIFE, SHE WOULD MAKE A FANTASTIC SCIENCE FAIR EXPERIMENT BECAUSE SHE STARTS THE WEEK OUT SOLID... (LAUGHING) AND THEN ON FRIDAY HER PRINCIPAL JUST SENDS HER HOME IN A BUCKET.

The audience laughs hysterically.

After the talk, Linwood gives an interview.
A caption reads "Linwood Barclay. Author and Columnist."

Linwood says IT MEANS A LOT TO ME. I MAKE MY LIVING FROM WRITING AND IF PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO READ I'D BE IN A LOT OF TROUBLE, AND IT'S FIRST TO COME TO HONOUR TEACHERS WHO ARE SO INVOLVED IN THAT, BECAUSE I MEAN, WHAT MORE... WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN GETTING KIDS INTERESTED IN BOOKS?

The caption changes to "Deborah Chisholm. Conference Organizer."

Deborah, in her forties, with short blond hair, says READING FOR THE LOVE OF IT CON FRENS A CONFERENCE THAT PROVIDES QUALITY PROFESSIONAL DOFTMENT FOR TEACHERS. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR TEACHERS TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS WHERE THEY CAN COME DOWN AND HAVE A RELAXING TIME AND ABSORB NEW IDEAS AND THEN TAKE THEM BACK AND TRY THEM OUT IN CLASSROOMS.

The caption changes to "Marguerite Campbell. Teacher."

Marguerite, in her thirties, with short black hair and glasses, says THE BOTTOM LINE IS TO COME TO CONFERENCES LIKE THIS TO GET NOT ONLY THE NITTY GRITTY, HOW TO DO READING IN MY CROSS ROOM, WHAT'S A BALANCED LITERACY PROGRAMME LOOK LIKE, BUT TO REALLY BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT WE BELIEVE IN ABOUT READING.

The caption changes to "Sharon Morris. Conference Organizer."

Sharon, in her forties, with short brown hair, says TEACHERS COULD USE A PROFESSIONAL TONIC AND THIS HAS BECOME A PROFESSIONAL TONIC FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

In his speech, Linwood says LET'S SUPPOSE YOU HAD SOMEONE COME INTO YOUR CLASSROOM OR SAY YOU WORKED IN A LIBRARY AND YOU HAD SOMEONE COME IN WHO WAS TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH THE CONCEPT OF READING A BOOK. LIKE SAY, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE A RECENTLY RETIRED PROVINCIAL PREMIER, SOMEBODY... (LAUGHING) AND SO, YOU'D BE ABLE TO TELL THEM HOW TO GO ABOUT IT. SO I BROUGHT ALONG A COPY OF MY LAST BOOK WHICH IS TOTALLY APPROPRIATE AND INCREDIBLY SELF-SERVING AND I'LL JUST USE THIS TO DEMONSTRATE WHAT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, ABOUT HOW TO READ A BOOK. SO WHAT YOU EXPLAIN TO INDIVIDUALS IS THAT BOOKS ARE NOT AS DIFFICULT TO OPERATE AS THEY MIGHT FIRST APPEAR. FIRST OF ALL, YOU HOLD THE BOOK BY THE SPINE, WHICH IS THE SIDE WHERE THERE'S NONE OF THE WHITE STUFF. IT'S THE SIDE WITH SOME LETTERS ON IT. YOU HOLD IT BY THE SPINE, HAVE IT OUT ON YOUR LEFT, THEN YOU MOVE ON AND BY THIS POINT YOU'LL GET TO SOMETHING CALLED CHAPTER ONE OR PROLOGUE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND HERE'S THE REALLY REALLY NEAT THING. THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE PAGES TO DOWNLOAD. IT'S THERE, OKAY? THEN YOU GO TO THE NEXT ONE, WATCH IT THIS OKAY?

The audience laughs.

He flips a page of his book and says IT'S THERE. IT'S FASTER THAN CABLE, OKAY?

The audience laughs hysterically.

The caption changes to "Andrew Little. Teacher."

Andrew, in his late thirties, bald, with a goatee, says WE'RE SITTING HERE TALK SHOP, TALKING ABOUT READING, LEARNING, ALL THE ADVENTURES OF BEING WITH CHILDREN, IT REALLY REINFORCES THE PROFESSION AND I'M GOING TO GO BACK REENERGIZED TO THE CLASSROOM ON MONDAY.

Linwood says THERE'S THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT THOINGS DISTRACT KIDS FROM READING, AND JUST TO BE ABLE TO STILL SIT WITH A BOOK IS A VALUABLE EXPERIENCE AND I HOPE KIDS NEVER LOSE THAT.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Mary says IT'S A COMMON BELIEF THAT WOMEN ARE MORE FAITHFUL THAN MEN. IT'S AN EVOLUTIONARY NOTION BASED ON OUR REPRODUCTIVE ROLE THAT WE'RE MORE CHOOSEY ABOUT OUR PARTNERS AND WE NEED THOSE GUYS TO STICK AROUND AND HELP OUT BUT SCIENCE IS REVEALING THAT WOMEN AREN'T NECESSARILY MONOGAMOUS AT ALL. IN FACT THEY'RE OFTEN BETTER AT CHEATING. ADVANCES IN GENETIC TESTING NOW MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO FINE OUT A FEW THINGS THAT MOM WOULD RATHER KEEP SECRET, LIKE THE REAL IDENTITY OF DAD. HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE, CHERYL SHUMAN FROM THE HOSPITAL FOR SICK CHILDREN IN TORONTO AND BERNARD DICKENS, A SPECIALIST IN MEDICAL ETHICS FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.

Cheryl is in her forties, with curly chin-length blond hair. She's wearing a black suit, a red blouse and a beaded necklace.
Bernard is in his sixties, clean-shaven and balding. He's wearing a black suit, striped shirt and checked black tie.

Mary continues HELLO, CHERYL AND BERNARD. THANK YOU FOR COMING IN. BERNARD, CAN YOU PLAIN WHAT THIS MYTH IS THAT MANY OF US BELIEVE?

The caption changes to "Bernard Dickens. Professor, University of Toronto."

Bernard says WELL, I THINK IT FEEDS INTO A GENDERED STEREOTYPE. THAT MEN WILL FOOL AROUND, BOYS WILL BE BOYS BUT WOMEN ARE ON THE OTHER END OF THE SPECTRUM, THEY ARE WOMEN WHO ARE SEDUCT TRESSES AND GIVEN TO FIGHT OR ALTERNATIVELY THEY'RE SAINTS ON A PEDESTAL. AND A WOMAN WHO IS NOT AT THE LOW END OF THE SCALE IS THEREFORE AT THE HIGH END OF THE SCALE.

Mary says THE WHOLE MADONNA-WHORE SCENARIO.

Bernard says EXACTLY.

Mary says CHERYL IS THERE ANY TRAUT TO THIS?

Cheryl says TO WHICH ASPECT IN.

Mary says TO THIS MYTH ABOUT FEMALES BEING MORE MONOGAMOUS THAN MEN?

The caption changes to "Cheryl Shuman. Genetic Counsellor."

Cheryl says I THINK YOU'D PROBABLY HAVE TO TALK MORE TO A SOCIOLOGIST ABOUT THAT. I HAVEN'T CERTAINLY IN THE GENETIC SLIT LIT TOURING THAT'S NOT COMMONLY HE IS SPOUSED.

Mary says SO WHAT EVIDENCE HAVE YOU SEEN OF THE OPPOSITE? THAT WOMEN MAY INDULGE IN EXTRA MARITAL AFFAIRS?

Cheryl says YEAH. UM, JUST FROM SO TEST RESULTS THAT WE MAY ARISE AT IN GENETIC TESTING. WE DON'T GO LOOKING FOR IT BUT FROM TIME TO TIME WE DO FIND THAT THE FATHER PRESENTING AS PART OF THE NUCLEAR FAMILY MAY NOT BE SO TELL MEET STORY BEHIND THAT HOW WOULD YOU FIND THIS OUT IN THE MAN BELIEVED TO BE THE FATHER OF THE CHILD IN FACT ISN'T?

Cheryl says WELL, WE MAY ORGANISE TESTING FOR A FAMILY TO CONFIRM A DIAGNOSIS IN A CHILD SO WE MAY HAVE TWO PARENTS AND A CHILD PRESENTING FOR AN APPOINTMENT.

Mary says WHY, FIRST OF ALL? SO WHY?

Cheryl says THERE IS A WIDE VARIETY OF REASONS THAT PEOPLE MAY SEEK GENETIC TESTING. THEY MAY SEEK IT DURING A PREGNANCY, BECAUSE OF FAMILY HISTORY OF A GENERAL NET PARTICULAR ISSUE IN THE FAMILY, THEY THEMSELVES MAY HAVE A GENETIC QUESTION ABOUT THEIR OWN MEDICAL ISSUE, THEY MAY HAVE A CHILD PRESENTING WITH A BIRTH DEFECT OR GENETIC PROBLEM OR IT MAY BE AN ADULT WHO'S BEEN SENT IN WITH A PROBLEM AND THEY'RE SEEK GENERAL NECK PARTICULAR TESTING. SO THEY MAY COME IN AS A NUCLEAR FAMILY. THEY MAY BE LOOKING FOR CONFIRMATION OF A DIAGNOSIS THAT'S BEEN MADE ON CLINICAL FINDINGS, AND WE MAY FIND THE GENETIC ALTERATION IN THE CHILD AND THEN WHEN WE LOOK AT THE PARENT AT THE WE MAY FIND THE GENETIC ALTERATION IN THE MOTHER BUT PERHAPS NOT THE FATHER AND IN THAT KIND OF SCENARIO BOTH PARENTS ARE DEEMED AS CARRIERS FOR A RECESSIVE CONDITION LIKE CYSTIC FIBROSIS, A COMMON DISORDER, WHERE BOTH PARENTS ARE CARRIERS AND THE CHILD HAS INHEARD AN ALTERATION FROM EACH PARENT SO WE MAY FIND THAT THE MOTHER HAS THE ALTERATION BUT PROBABLY THE FATHER MAY NOT NOT EVEN POTENTIALLY, IT'S HAPPENED.

Mary says IT'S HAPPENED.
AND NOT JUST ONCE, IT'S HAPPENED.

Cheryl says IT HAPPENS.

Mary says AND THEN BLOOD TESTS... USUALLY BLOOD TESTS.

Cheryl says YEAH.

Mary says AND YOU FIND OUT THE MAN IS NOT THE BY LOLL FATHER OF THIS CHILD, THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

Cheryl says WELL THE FIRST THING WE WOULD DO IS LOOK FOR OTHER POTENTIAL PLAUSIBLE PLAN, APOTENTIALLY LIKE A SAMPLE MIX-UP OR SOMETHING OTHER THAN... YOU DON'T WANT TO JUMP TO A CONCLUSION. YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO RULE OUT OTHER POTENTIAL ISSUES. THEN GENERALLY WHAT WE DO IS CONSULT WITH OUR COLLEAGUES AND BIOETHICISTS AND WITH OUR LEGAL EXPERTS AND THEN TYPICALLY WHAT WE WOULD DO IS CAUGHT MOTHER FIRST. WHAT WE'RE ADVISED TO DO AND WHAT WE SEEK TO DO IS IT TO DO NO HARM AND IF THE CHILD IS THE PATIENT WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT THE CHILD IS IN SO WE MIGHT FIRST CALL THE MOTHER TO DISCUSS THE FINDING WITH HER. I SHOULD SAY WE NOW HAVE A CONSENT FORM WHICH RAISES THAT ISSUE UP FRONT, SO THAT SOMETIMES BRINGS THE ISSUE TO AN END EVEN BEFORE THE TEST RESULTS.

Mary says LET'S SAY THEY GO AHEAD WITH THE CONSENT FORM, SIGNED IT, FINE, YOU BRING THE MOTHER IN, YOU TELL HER AND SHE HAS NEVER TOLD HER HUSBAND OR PARTNER OR WHATEVER, RIGHT THAT HE IS NOT THE FATHER. AND SHE WOULD LIKE IT TO BE KEPT SECRET, WHICH HAPPENS. WHAT HAPPENS AT THAT POINT? OH, LET ME ASK BERNARD.

Cheryl says YES, ABSOLUTELY. BERNARD. THE ETHICIST.

Bernard says WELL, AS ONE SAYS WHEN ONE DOESN'T NOTE ANSWER IT DEPENDS ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CASE BUT IN PRINCIPAL BECAUSE THE DIAGNOSIS IS OF THE CHILD AND THE CHILD IS THE PATIENT, THE INFORMATION BELONGS TO THE PATIENT AND THE COUNSELLOR HAS TO USE THAT INFORMATION IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE PATIENT BUT BECAUSE THE PATIENT IS A YOUNG CHILD AND HAS NO VIEWS ONE HAS TO GO TO IT THE PERSON WHO BEST REPRESENTS THE CHILD WHO IS THE MOTHER BECAUSE ONE CAN BE FAIRLY CONFIDENT EXCLUDING EMBRYO TRANSFERS THAT THE WHOM IS PRESENTING AS THE MOTHER IS THE BIOLOGICAL MOTHER.

Mary says YOU JUST SAID SHE'S THE BEST REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CHILD. IS THAT...

Bernard says SHE PROBABLY HAS A BETTER SENSE OF THE CHILD'S BEST INTERESTS THAN THE THERAPIST WHO HAS COME ON THE SCENE.

Mary says NO I MEAN THAN THE FATHER, THOUGH. YOU'RE SAYING THAT SHE CAN HAVE THAT INFORMATION AND WITHHOLD IT WILL FROM THE MAN WHO IS NOT THE BIOLOGICAL FASHION EVEN THOUGH HE'S THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN DOING THE FEARG.

Bernard says WELL THIS RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS IT TO BE A FATHER AND WE'VE NOW GONE BEYOND IT BEING A GENETIC LINK TO IT BEING A SOCIAL FACT OF FATHERING THE CHILD. THAT IS TREATING THE CHILDS A DEPENDENT FOR WHOM ONE RECEIVES RESPONSIBILITY.

Mary says AND FROM AN ETHICAL POINT OF VIEW, HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT THAT? HOW DO WE FEEL ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE MAN WHO'S FATHERED THESE CHILDREN, OR CHILD, YOU KNOW FOR YEARS. HE'S BEEN DOING THE JOB OF A FATHER.

Bernard says BUT THIS RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHY IF IT'S BECAUSE HE HAS AFFECTION AND LOVE FOR THE CHILD WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE CHILD HE LOVES? IS IT THE PERSONALITY OF THE CHILD SOAR IT THAT THE CHILD IS HIS GENETIC OFF SPRING. AND IF IT'S THE LATTER, IF WHAT THE FATHER LOVES ABOUT THE CHILD IS NOT THE PERSONALITY OF THE CHILD BUT THE FACT THAT IT'S HIS CHILD WELL THEN THIS IS NARCISSISTIC, IT'S REALLY LOVING HIMSELF, REFLECTED IN THE CHILD.

Mary says ISN'T THAT A LITTLE SIMPLISTIC BERNARD? CAN WE ACTUALLY GIVE YOU A BLACK AND WHITE ANSWER TO THAT? THE REASONS WE LOVE OUR CHILD ARE THEY EVEN RATIONAL DO WE EVEN KNOW WHY?

Bernard says NO NOT NECESSARILY RATIONAL, THEY'RE EMOTIONAL BUT IF A MAN LEARNING A CHILD HE HAS LOVED AND CAREED FOR IS NOT HIS GENETIC OFF SPRING IS GOING TO FIND THE RELATIONSHIP DAMAGED THEN IT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHAT SORT OF RELATIONSHIP IT WAS.

Mary says I HAVE TO ASK YOU, TOO, THOUGH ARE YOU NOT ACTUALLY MAKING A JUDGMENT ON IT THAT IS REALLY BEYOND YOUR REALM OF RESPONSIBILITY?

Bernard says YES, AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY THE INFORMATION WOULD FIRST BE GIVEN TO THE WOMAN WHO IS THE MOTHER OF THE CHILD TO MAKE AN ASSESSMENT OF THAT CHILD'S BEST INTEREST BECAUSE SHE KNOWS THE CHILD, SHE CARES FOR THE CHILD BEING SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHILD.

Mary says MAYBE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GET INTO TROUBLE.

Bernard says WELL IT COULD BE IF SHE WANTS TO AVOID DISRUPTION WITH THE RELATIONSHIP THAT IS NOT CONSIST WITH THE CHILD'S INTERESTS.

Cheryl says AND THE SITUATIONS AREN'T NECESSARILY BLACK AND WHITE. IT'S NOT AS IF THERE'S ONE RECIPE THAT WE APPLY TO ALL SITUATIONSES AND WE DO CONSIDER ALL OF THE RAMIFICATIONS. IT'S IN THE SOMETHING THAT WE TYPICALLY ENTER INTO LIGHTLY THAT WE'RE TRYING TO WITHHOLD OR DECEIVE ANYONE AND THE COUPLE IS USUALLY COMING FOR CONFIRMATION OF A DIAGNOSIS IN THAT CHILE. WE'RE NOT WITHHOLDING THAT INFORMATION. THEY ARE OBTAINING THE INFORMATION THEY ORIGINALLY SOUGHT. SO IT TURNS OUT TO BE FAIRLY COMPLEX AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT GIVES US MUCH THOUGHT AND WE SEEK A LOT OF CONSULTATION ABOUT IT WHEN THOSE SITUATIONS ARISE, WHICH UNFORTUNATELY ISN'T ALL THAT FREQUENTLY.

Mary says HOW OFTEN IS IT? I'VE READ IT CAN BE A COUPLE TIMES A YEAR.

Cheryl says I WOULD... IF I THINK BACK OVER THE YEARS I'D SAY MAYBE THREE OR FOUR TIMES A YEAR.

Mary says WHAT DO WE KNOW? I MEAN, DO WE HAVE ACTUALLY STATISTICS OR STUDIES ABOUT MISTAKEN FATHERHOOD, BERNARD?

Bernard says YES, ONE KNOWS THAT THERE CAN BE UNRELATED GENETIC LINKS IN STRONGER SOCIAL LINKS. IN MANY CASE, OF COURSE, THE MOTHERS KNOW THAT AND IN MANY CASES THEIR PARTNERS KNOW THAT IN OTHER CASES, ONE MAY KNOW... SHE MAY KNOW AND THE OTHER...

Mary says WHAT ABOUT THAT BRITISH THING THAT WAS DONE.

Bernard says WELL THIS WAS PICKED UP IN THE TABLOID NEWSPAPERS AND IT WAS PRESENTED MORE FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE THAN FOR INFORMATION BUT THIS IN THE EARLY '70s, A STUDY IN A TOWN JUST SOUTH OF GOTWYK AIRPORT IN SUSSEX OF A SCHOOL TEACHER WHO WAS INTRODUCING CHILDREN TO FACTS OF GENETICS THROUGH TRACING THEIR BLOOD GROUP AND THE CHILDREN WHO, IF THEY KNEW THEIR BLOOD GROUP WERE ENCOURAGED FIND THEIR MOTHER'S AND FATHER'S BLOOD GROUP BECAUSE THAT WOULD EXPLAIN OW THEY GOT THEIRS BUT THREE CASES OUT OF TEN IT DIDN'T.

Mary says THREE CASES OUT OF TEN?
30 percent. WHAT A SHOCK FOR THESE KIDS WHO HAD TO GO HOME...

Bernard says WELL, MAY NOT HAVE BEEN IF THEY WERE CHILDREN...

Mary says IF THEY ALREADY NEW.

Bernard says IF THEIR MOTHERS WERE IN SECOND MARRIAGE OR IF IT WAS KNOWN THAT THEY WERE BORN BEFORE THE MOTHER MARRIED THE FATHER.

Mary says THAT'S A GOOD POINT YOU RAISE. A SECOND MARRIAGE. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE CASE OF A MAN WHO BELIEVES LET'S SAY HE IS CARRYING SOME KIND OF A DAMAGING gene, MAYBE A C.F., CYSTIC FIBROSIS JEN OR SOMETHING AND HE'S DIVORCED FROM THE WOMAN HE WAS MARRIED TO AND THEY DID HAVE CHILD. HE WAS NEVER TOLD HE WAS THE BIOLOGICAL FATHER. NOW HE WANTS TO GET REMARRIED AGAIN BUT HE THINKS THOUGH HE'S GOT THAT CF GENE BUT HE DOESN'T AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY, MAYBE THAT HE MIGHT PASS IT ON. WHAT ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THAT?

Cheryl says THAT'S I THINK FOR US A PROBABLY MORE TROUBLING SITUATION BECAUSE THEN HE WOULD BECOME OUR PATIENT. IF HE ACTUALLY SOUGHT OUT AN APPOINTMENT WITH US ALONE OR PROBABLY WITH A NEW PARTNER, I THINK THAT THAT WOULD GIVE US MORE PAUSE BECAUSE HE'S THEN SEPARATED FROM THE NUCLEAR GROUP THAT HE CAME IN WITH AND WE WOULD PROBLEMLY DEFINE HIM AS OUR PATIENT. AND I THINK THAT WE WOULD HAVE DIFFICULTY WITHHOLDING THAT KIND OF... HIS OWN TEST RESULTS FROM HIM. I THINK PROFESSOR DICKENS FEELS DIFFERENTLY.

Mary says BERNARD, THE ONUS IS HIM. WHAT IF HE DIDN'T MAKE THAT YOU THAW APPOINTMENT. HE IS NOW CARRYING AROUND SERIOUS MISTAKEN INFORMATION IN HIS HEAD.

Bernard says WELL, THAT'S CERTAIN ROOM FOR DISCUSSION HERE. BUT IF THE LACK OF TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE WILL IMPAIR HIS FUTURE LIFE, THEN THIS IS A BASIS FOR SPEAKING TO THE MOTHER.

Mary says THIS IS AN ISSUE OF COURSE THAT WILL GO ON AND WE'LL HAVE TO DISCUSS IT AGAIN BUT THANK YOU FOR COMING IN WE'RE OUT OF TIME. BERNARD DICKENS IS A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO. CHERYL SHOE MAN IS THE DIRECTOR OF GENETIC counselling at the Hospital for Sick Kids. For more information visit the Sick Kids website at www.sickkids.on.ca.
That is it for our show today, thank you for watching. And please join us each weekday, Monday through Friday, for More to Life at 1 o'clock.

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