Transcript: Politics of Timing | Feb 06, 2005

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of riots, and people working in an office appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK.
SAYING GOOD-BYE.

A clip shows a man in his fifties surrounded by journalists.

He says IT IS A TRAUMATIC
EXPERIENCE.

Steve says AFTER 33 YEARS IN
POLITICS ERNIE EVES CALLS IT
QUITS.

Steve and 3 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, over a purple shirt.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THIS IS "4th READING" AFTER FOUR
MONTHS OF PLAYING THE WAITING
GAME.
JOHN TORY MOVED ONE STEP CLOSER
TO GETTING A SEAT IN THE
LEGISLATURE IT TOOK THE
RETIREMENT OF FORMER LEADER AND
PREMIER ERNIE EVES.
HE IS STEPPING ASIDE AFTER
ALMOST A QUARTER CENTURY IN
POLITICS.
TORY WILL RUN IN WELLINGTON
GREY.
AND HOPES TO HAVE A BRIGHT
FUTURE.
FOR ERNIE EVES HIS POLITICAL
CAREER IS NOW IN THE PAST.
HERE ARE SOME OF THE HIGHS AND
LOWS OF THAT PUBLIC LIFE.

A clip shows Ernie Eves walking in a hallway. He is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair, and is wearing a black suit, white shirt, and blue tie.

He says GOOD MORNING GUYS.

Steve says THIS WEEK FORMER
ONTARIO PREMIER ERNIE EVES
WALKED DOWN THE CORRIDORS OF
QUEENS PARK FOR THE LAST TIME AS
A POLITICIAN.

A clip shows Ernie surrounded by journalists.
A caption reads "Ernie Eves. Former Ontario Premier."

He says IT IS A PRETTY TRAUMATIC
EXPERIENCE THERE IS A NOTE OF
SADNESS WHEN YOU HAVE DONE
SOMETHING YOU LIKE DOING FOR
ALMOST 24 YEARS, I GUESS THERE'S
A BIT OF REGRET.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND A SENSE OF
RELIEF QUITE FRANKLY.

A clip shows Ernie talking in a conference room.

Steve says LANDSLIDE ERNIE WON HIS NICKNAME
BY WINNING HIS FIRST ELECTION IN
1981 BY SIX VOTES.
IT WASN'T UNTIL MIKE HARRIS AND
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION IN
1995, THAT HE WAS THRUST INTO
THE SPOTLIGHT.

A clip shows Ernie standing behind a podium, and talking to a microphone.

He says I ERNIE EVES SWEAR THAT I
WILL DULY -- .

Steve says AS FINANCE MINISTER HE LEAD
THE DRIVE TO ELIMINATE ONTARIO
11 THERE ARE BILLION DEFICIT AND
ULTIMATELY PRESENTED THE FIRST
CONSECUTIVE BALANCED BUDGETS IN
THREE DECADES.

A clip shows Ernie talking to the press.

Steve continues IN 2001, EVES QUIT
POLITICS ACCEPTING A POSITION AS
VICE CHAIR IN BOSTON, BUT AFTER
MIKE HARRIS RETIRED AS PREMIER,
EVES REENTERED THE POLITICAL
ARENA.

Ernie says THIS MORNING I AM ANNOUNCING
I AM SEEKING THE LEADERSHIP OF
THE PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY OF ONTARIO.
WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK.

A clip shows a riot, and people attacking police officers.

Steve says PROMISING TO TURN DOWN THE
TEMPERATURE AFTER THE HARRIS
YEARS.

A clip shows Ernie standing behind a podium, talking to the press.

He says I AM NOT RIGHT WING, I AM NOT
LEFT WING.
I AM SOMEONE WHO IS FISCALLY
RESPONSIBLE, WITH A LARGE SOCIAL
CONSCIOUS.

A clip shows Ernie shaking hands with a man in his sixties.

Steve says IN MARCH 2002, EVES
WON THE PC LEADERSHIP AND BECAME
ONTARIO'S 23rd PREMIER.
EVES QUICKLY DEMONSTRATED HE
WOULD BE A DIFFERENT PREMIER
FROM HARRIS HE CANCELED THE SALE
OF THE DEREGULATION OF HYDRO AND
MOVED DECISIVE TO SETTLE A
GARBAGE STRIKE IN TORONTO BUT
FACED SKYROCKETING HYDRO PRICES
AND THE DECISION TO HOLD EVENT
AT NAG MAPLANT FACED WITH SARS,
THE CLOSURE OF THE U.S. BORDER
TO ONTARIO BEEF AND THE BLACKOUT
THAT SHUTDOWN MUCH OF THE
PROVINCE IN THE SUMMER OF 2003.

A clip shows Ernie talking to the press.
A caption reads "September 4, 2003."

Ernie says ON THURSDAY, OCTOBER 2nd THE
PEOPLE OF ONTARIO WILL HAVE A
CLEAR CHOICE.
AN EXPERIENCED LEADER WHO
BELIEVES IN WHAT THEY AS
ONTARIANS BELIEVE.

A clip shows a group of people holding signs and chanting, as Ernie enters the room.

People chant ERNIE ERNIE!

Steve says EVES CALLED THE 2003
ELECTION, BUT WAS UNABLE TO
RECAPTURE THE MOMENTUM OF THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
SOON AFTER, HE STEPPED DOWN AS
ONTARIO P.C. LEADER.

A clip shows a man in his early fifties shaking hands with a group of people. He is clean-shaven, has short brown hair, and is wearing a black suit, white shirt, and light green tie.

Steve continues JOHN TORY REPLACED EVES AS
PRINCE CHARLES LEADER TORRIE
ANNOUNCED HE WOULD RUN IN PEEL
WELG GREY IN THE PENDING
BYELECTION.
HE BELIEVES TORY WILL LEAD THE
PRINCE CHARLES PARTY BACK TO
POWER.

A clip shows Ernie talking with the press.

Ernie says I THINK HE WILL BE A GREAT
PREMIER OF THIS PROVINCE.
THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND HE
WILL BE PREMIER.
HOPEFULLY HIS STAY WILL BE A
LITTLE LONGER THAN MINE.

Back in the studio Steve sits at the table with 3 guests.

Steve says LET'S REVIEW ERNIE
EVES IMPACT ON THE LIFE OF THIS
PROVINCE WITH HIS FORMER FINANCE
MINISTER JANET ECKER, SEAN
CONWAY, AND FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER DAVE COOKE.
WAS ERNIE EVES A GOOD
PREMIER?

Janet is in her late forties, has short wavy brown hair, and is wearing a dark purple blazer over a black turtleneck, and glasses.
A caption reads "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister."

She says I THINK HE HAD A LOT OF
TALENT AND THINGS TO OFFER
ONTARIO.
I DON'T THINK YOU WILL FIND A
MAN WHO CARED MORE ABOUT THE
JOB.
WHO HAD MORE OF A COMMITMENT TO
PUBLIC SERVICE WHO CARED
MORE -- .

Steve asks WAS HE A GOOD PREMIER?

Janet says HISTORY WILL JUDGE THAT HE
WAS NOT THERE VERY LONG.
IT IS UNFORTUNATE, BECAUSE I
KNOW THERE ARE THINGS HE WANTED
TO DO AND HAD A LOT OF DIFFICULT
CHALLENGES THON AT HIS AS YOUR
PIECE.
AND IN POL THINGS TIMING WAS
EVERYTHING.
TIMING WAS NOT GOOD TO PREMIER
EVES.

Steve says YOU WERE WITH HIM FOR
A GREAT DEAL OF YOUR TIME AND
AWFUL HIS TIME.
DO YOU THINK HE WAS A GOOD
PREMIER?

Sean is in his late early fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He is wearing a dark blue suit, white shirt, and red tartan tie.
A caption reads "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister."

He says I DON'T THINK ERNIE EVES FOR
ALL HIS MANY TALENTS I REALLY
LIKE ERNIE WE WERE NEIGHBOURS
TOGETHER FOR 20 YEARS IN THE
MID-NORTHERN ONTARIO, I DON'T
THINK ERNIE'S MAKEUP REALLY FIT
WITH THAT JOB.
I THINK HE WAS A MUCH MORE
COMFORTABLE, AND MUCH BETTER AS
A PRINCIPLE LIEUTENANT.
I THINK HE WAS A VERY IMPORTANT
FIGURE IN THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT,
OBVIOUSLY AS MINISTER OF FINANCE
HE WAS A STABILIZER, IN TERMS OF
THE CONVERSATION OFFERING.
AS ONE OF YOUR CLIPS MADE PLAIN.
HE IS A RED TORY.
ANYONE WHO DEALT WITH HIM KNEW
THAT ABOUT HIM.
I WAS SURPRISED FRANKLY THAT HE
RAN FOR THE TOP JOB, WITH NOT
WITHSTANDING HIS MANY QUALITIES
I DON'T THINK ERNIE HAD THE FIRE
IN YOUR BELLY YOU NEED.

Steve asks WHAT DO YOU THINK,
DAVE COOKE.
DID HE HAVE IT?

Dave is in his forties, clean-shaven, with very short brown hair. He is wearing a brown suit over a beige T-shirt.
A caption reads "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

He says I THINK THE PROBLEM WAS THE
TIMING.
WHEN ERNIE CAME IN, HE WAS
TRYING TO REBRAND THE GOVERNMENT
TO SOME EXTENT.
IT WASN'T GOING SMOOTHLY.
HE WAS TRYING TO DO THAT WITH
THE CAUCUS THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH
BRANDED ON THE EXTREME RIGHT,
WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PERSON
ON MY LEFT, BUT
I THINK IT IS VERY
DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO GOVERNOR
UNDER THAT CIRCUMSTANCE.
I AGREE WITH SEAN.
IT WAS NOT A GREAT FIT.
ANALOGOUS TO THE PRIME MINISTER.
MAYBE FINANCE MINISTERS -- .

Steve says YOU ARE SO GOOD LOOK
AT THE QUESTION NUMBER TWO.
FINANCE NOT MINISTERS ARE OFTEN
NOT GOOD PRIME MINISTERS THINK
OF JOHN TURNER AND SAY THE JURY
IS STILL OUT ON PAUL MARTIN.
WAS PART OF Mr. EVES PROBLEM
THAT AS SEAN SAYS A GOOD TWO I
SEE BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST
GUY FOR THE TOP JOB?

Janet says IT IS DIFFICULT TO MOVE INTO
THE POP POSITION.
PREMIER EVES -- THERE WAS A
TELLING INTERVIEW I CAN'T
REMEMBER HOW HE SAID IT -- ALL
OF A SUDDEN THE BUCK IS ON YOUR
DESK, NOT THE OTHER GUY IN THE
CORNER OFFENCE.
I THINK THE HARRIS -- MIKE
HARRIS HAD SUCH INCREDIBLE,
CLEAR, VISION.
AGREE OR DISAGREE AS MANY PEOPLE
DID, BUT A VERY GOOD, STRONG,
LEADERSHIP.
THAT GOVERNMENT WAS LIKE MIKE
HARRIS'S GOVERNMENT, HIS PARTY
AND CHARACTERIZED THE GOOD AND
BAD WITH MIKE HARRIS.
YOU COME OUT OF THAT STRUCTURED
FRAMEWORK AND ALL OF A SUDDEN,
YOU'RE THE PERSON WHO IS IN THAT
POSITION.
IT IS DIFFICULT.
THOSE WERE BIG SHOES TO FILL.
WE DID HAVE SOME DIFFICULT
ISSUES THAT WE NEEDED TO SOLVE
AND A FEW EXTRA THINGS THROWN AT
HIM.

Sean says ON THIS POINT I WOULD MAKE A
COUPLE OF OBSERVATIONS.
DON'T FORGET LESLIE FROST WAS
MINISTER OF FINANCE.
I DON'T'S AGREE BECAUSE ONE IS
MINISTER OF FINANCE MAKES ONE
INELIGIBLE FOR PREMIER OF
ONTARIO.
GENERALLY SPEAKING TO BE A GOOD
PARTY LEADER AND IT HELPS TO BE
GENERALLY SPEAKING INTERESTED IN
PARTY POLITICS.
HE WAS NOT A PARTY POLITICIAN.
MIKE HARRIS WE CAN REMEMBER IN
THEY DIFFICULT TIME.
MIKE HARRIS BECAME LEADER OF THE
CONVERSATION PARTY AT A LOW
POINT IN 1990.
THE THIRD PLACE PARTY.
PROSPECTS DIDN'T LOOK VERY GOOD.
HARRIS TO HIS GREAT CREDIT FROM
THE CONVERSATION PARTY'S POINT
OF VIEW DID UNAPTIESING
MISSIONRY WORK THROUGH A
FIVE-YEAR PERIOD.
THAT'S NOT ERNIE EVES HE WAS NOT
SOMEONE WHO IS VERY INTERESTED
IN THAT PART OF THE JOB AND I
THINK THAT DID COME BACK TO HURT
HIM A BIT.

Janet says I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER
THINGS AS MANY PARTY LEADERS AND
PREMIERS WILL TELL YOU, THERE'S
NO ON THE JOB TRAINING YOU JUST
ONE DAY, YOU'RE A LEADER OR
CANDIDATE AND THE NEXT DAY
YOU'RE SUDDENLY PREMIER.
MIKE HARRIS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAD
FIVE YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS TO
LEARN HOW TO BECOMING A LEADER
AND FIND YOURS.
PREMIER EVES DIDN'T HAVE THAT.

Steve says HE HAD BOTH JOBS AT
ONCE.

Janet says THERE HE WAS.
YOU LEARN IN THE PUBLIC EYE.
IT IS LIKE BEING THE COPILOT AND
THE PILOT SAYS HERE.
IT IS A CHALLENGE.
IT IS DIFFICULT.
AND I THINK CHANGING LEADERS
WHEN -- WHEN YOU'RE IN POWER IS
PROBABLY THE MOST -- THE
TOUGHEST CHALLENGE.
THE TORIES HAVE DONE IT
SUCCESSFULLY IN THE PAST MANY
TIMES, BUT WE LOST -- WE LOST
THAT MAGIC RECIPE WHEN WE MADE
THE CHANGE WITH Mr. MILLER.

Dave says ERNIE, FROM HIS ENTIRE TIME
AFTER DAVIS WAS GONE, AND WHEN
HARRIS CAME IN, HE WAS HARRIS'S
LIEUTENANT EVER STEP OF THE WAY.
HARRIS WAS HOUSE LEADER AND
ERNIE WAS THE WHIP.
THEN HARRIS BECAME THE LEADER
AND ERNIE BECAME THE HOUSE
LEADER.
THERE WAS ALWAYS SORT OF TAKING
THE MAJOR DIRECTION FROM SOMEONE
ELSE.
I HAVE GOT TO SAY, HE OF COURSE,
HAD A LOT OF SKILL.
NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH, WAS HIS
UP BRINGING IN WINDSOR.
HE WAS ONE OF THE FEW TORIES
WHO PLUGGED FOR WINDSOR.

Sean says ANOTHER THING I WOULD ADD TO.
WE REMEMBER THE DAY IN JANUARY,
I THINK 2001 WHEN ERNIE LEFT.
I REMEMBER THINKING AT THE TIME,
BECAUSE I PRETTY WELL MADE UP MY
TIME I WAS LEAVING AFTER AN
EQUALLY LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND
I DIDN'T HAVE THE STRESS OF
FINANCE MINISTER IN THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.
I REMEMBER THINKING AT THE TIME
HAVING TALKED TO ERNIE A COUPLE
OF TIME BEFORE HE MADE THE
ANNOUNCEMENT IN THE WINTER OF
2001, THAT HE WAS -- HE WAS
READY TO GO.
I THINK PSYCHOLOGICALLY READY TO
MOVE ON.
I REMEMBER THINKING WHEN HE CAME
BACK WITHIN THE YEAR, MAYBE THAT
JUST WASN'T PSYCHOLOGICALLY
WHERE HE WANTED TO BE.

Janet says YOU WON'T FIND ANYONE THAT
HAS SUCH A SENSE OF PUBLIC
SERVICE.
HE REALLY TOOK THAT SERIOUSLY.
I THINK WHEN THE PARTY -- THE
PARTY FELT -- THEY REALLY NEEDED
HIM.
YOU KNOW THE LINEUP OF PEOPLE,
AND I KNOW CHRIS HODGSON AND I
WERE TWO PEOPLE OF THINKING OF
RUNNING.
YOU COULD FEEL YOUR SUPPORT
DRAIN AWAY THE CLOSER ERNIE GOT
TO DECIDING TO COME IN.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
THAT.
I WAS CURIOUS WHAT KIND OF
CONSERVATIVE Mr. EVES HAS BEEN
THE WEEK BOOK IS HE IS FAR MOR
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE THAN
MIKE HARRIS I WONDER WHETHER THE
RESULTS WOULD HAVE BEEN
DIFFERENT, IF Mr. EVES WERE
"ALLOWED" TO BE MORE LIKE
HIMSELF AND RUN ON THE ISSUES
THAT HE CARED MORE ABOUT.
THAN THE ISSUES HIS HANDLERS
THOUSAND HE NEEDED TO GET OUT ON
HE RAN A NEOCONSERVATIVE
CAMPAIGN PAIN.
DO YOU THINK THE RESULTS WOULD
HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IF ERNIE WAS
ALLOWED TO BE ERNIE?

Janet says I THINK THE BIGGEST WAS THE
PUBLIC WAS CONFUSEED ABOUT WHO
THE REAL ERNIE WAS.
THERE'S LOTS OF REASONS -- IT IS
NOT WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE LEFT
WING OR RIGHT WING R.COUNTRY
CLEAR AND CONSISTENT AND KNOW
WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.
UNFORTUNATELY IT END OF THE DAY
WE LEFT THE PUBLIC ABOUT THE
UNCERTAINTIY WHERE AS A
GOVERNMENT WE ARE COMING FROM.
AND WE PAID THE FRIS PROO IS AND
THE VOTERS WENT ELSEWHERE.

Sean says THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
ANYBODY WHO KNOWS HIM KNOWS HE
IS A MODDERATE CENTRIST.
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.
I THINK ONE OF THE BIG
CHALLENGES ERNIE FACED IS THE
PARTY HE INHERITED IN 2002 WAS,
PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF ITS
MILITANT CORE A VERY DIFFERENT
PARTY THAN THE ONE HE GREW UP
IN.
ONE OF THE IMAGINES FROM THE
2003 CAMPAIGN, I COULD NOT GET
IT OUT OF MY HEAD WAS THE IMAGE
OF LEADING THE CAM CAMPAIGN WITH
BARBED WIRE.

Steve says YEAH.

Sean says I REMEMBER AT LOOKING AT THAT
AND IT IS JUST NOT THE IMAGINE
THAT I WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH
ERNIE.
I THINK HE DID GET CAUGHT
BETWEEN THE TWO POLARTIES WITHIN
THAT PARTY.

Janet says AND -- .

Dave says THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTION TO
PUBLIC SERVICE MAY BE THAT HE
PREVENTED Mr. FLAHERTY FROM
BECOMING PREMIER.

WELL THERE WAS A LOT OF
CONCERN IN THE PROVINCE, EVEN
FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE PULLING FOR
ERNIE.

Steve says 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE
SEGMENT.
DOES ERNIE EVES BE REMEMBERED
MORE AS THE GUY WHO BALANCED
CONSECUTIVE BUDGETS FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN 30 YEARS OR THE
FIRST CONVERSATION PREMIER SINCE
1934 TO LOSE AN ELECTION?

Janet says I THINK HE DID A LOT OF GOOD
THINGS WHEN HE WAS PREMIER AND
FINANCE MINISTER AS WELL. ONE
OF THE THING I WILL REMEMBER
ABOUT ERNIE EVES IS THE
COMPASSION.

Steve says HERE'S A TOPIC FOR
THREE FORMER EDUCATION MINISTERS
DO RECENT TEACHER STRIKE VOTES
MEAN THE CEASE-FIRE IN EDUCATION
WARS IS ABOUT TO BE BROKEN.

A clip shows a man in his forties surrounded by journalists. He is clean-shaven, has short brown hair, and is wearing a black suit, striped blue shirt, and purple tie.
A caption reads "Gerard Kennedy. Ontario Education Minister."

He says EVERYONE IS FOLLOWING THE
RULE.
IT HAS STRIKE VOTES FAIRLY EARLY
ON IN THE PROCEEDINGS.
THEY ARE TACTICS AROUND THE
NEGOTIATIONS AND LEGAL TACTICS.
SIMPLY PUT, WE THINK THERE ARE
OTHER WAYS FOR THESE THINGS TO
BE SOLVED THROUGH NEGOTIATION.

Steve says ELEMENTARY PUBLIC
SCHOOLTEACHERS IN A DOZEN SCHOOL
BOARDS ACROSS THE PROVINCE HAVE
VOTED OVERWHELMINGLY TO GO ON
STRIKE, IF NECESSARY.
AND THE UNION SAYS THEY COULD BE
WORKING TO RULE NEXT MONTH.
THEY HAVE BEEN WITHOUT A
CONTRACT SINCE AUGUST 2003.
YES THEY WANT MORE MONEY, BUT
EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, MORE TIME
TO PREPARE FOR CLASSES.
AND PREP TIME, YOU'LL REMEMBER
WAS THE ISSUE THAT SPARKED A
BITTER-PROVINCE-WIDE TEACHERS
STRIDE/POLITICAL PROTEST IN 1998
WHEN MIKE HARRIS HARRIS WAS
PREMIER.
YOU HAVE SEEN THIS STORY BEFORE.
HOW SIGNIFICANT ARE THESE STRIKE
VOTES?

Sean says I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD
BE PAYING ATTENTION AS I'M SURE
SOBARA AND MIKE KENNEDY ARE.
MY SOURCE IS THE MOVE IS A BIT
MORE HOPEFUL THAN TIMES I
REMEMBERED IN THAT JOB.
I THINK THERE IS A RECOGNITION
BY MANY IN THE TEACHING
COMMUNITY, THAT MAYBE THE
GOVERNMENT HAS IDENTIFIED
EDUCATION AS A PRIORITY.
IF YOU LOOK AT LAST YEAR'S
BUDGET YOU SEE SOME RELATIVELY
GOOD YEAR OVER YEAR INCREASES I
THINK THE NUMBERS ARE SOMETHING
LIKE 1100 NEW TEACHERS IN THE
SYSTEM.
WITH THE COMMITMENT TO REDUCE
CLASS SIZES, PARTICULARLY AT THE
ELEMENTARY LEVEL, I THINK SHOULD
HAVE SOME MODEST EFFECT ON
WORKLOAD, BUT YOU KNOW THE
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO FACE SOME
REAL CHALLENGES AROUND PUBLIC
SECTOR BARGAINING, MY IMPRESSION
IS THAT -- IS THAT THERE'S
SOME -- SOME ROOM FOR PROGRESS
HERE.

Steve says JANET I KNOW WHEN YOU
WERE EDUCATION MINISTER WHEN
YOUR GOVERNMENT WAS IN POWER,
PREPARATION TIME WAS AN ENORMOUS
ISSUE FOR THE TEACHERS EVERY
YEAR.
NOW THAT YOU'RE OUT, AND YOU
DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT GOING
BACK TO CAUCUS OR CABINET TO
SELL ANYTHING.
DO YOU THINK THE TEACHERS HAVE A
POINT ON PREP TIME?

Janet says IT IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE,
THE 200 MINUTES GETTING DOWN TO
150, IT IS AN ISSUE THAT HAS
BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG, LONG
TIME.
I DON'T THINK IT IS THAT SIMPLE
AND THAT EASY.
WHAT IT SAYS IS MORE ABOUT THE
LEADERSHIP OF THE TEACHERS UNION
WHO NEVER MET A SITUATION OR
GOVERNMENT WHERE THEY CANNON
MAKE THE RELATIONSHIP WORSE.
THEIR LACK OF ABILITY-- THEIR
LACK OF GOVERNMENT-RELATION
SKILL IS NEVER MORE EVIDENT THAN
IT IS NOW.
THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THEY
ELECTED.
A GOVERNMENT WHO PROMISED THEM
THE SKY.
THE GOVERNMENT WHO HAS FRANKLY
GIVEN A UNIONS A LOT OF WHAT
THEY SAID.
AND THEY HAD INCREASES UNDER THE
HARRIS, GOVERNMENT, PREMIER EVES
GAVE THEM SOME GENEROUS THINGS.
KENNEDY HAS GIVEN THEM INSENTIVE
FOR LONG-TERM STABILITY.
LONG-TERM CONTRACTS, AND THEY'RE
STILL, LET'S TALK ABOUT STRIKE.
IT IS VERY DISRUPTIVE TO
STUDENTS, PARENTS, PARENTS ARE
SITTING THERE GOING OH, MY GOD,
HERE WE GO AGAIN, EVEN IF THEY
DON'T HAVE THE STRIKE, THE ANGst
IT SETS UP IS VERY DAMAGING TO
THE SYSTEM, AND THE UNIONS,
FRANKLY THE LEETDERSHIP DOESN'T
GET IT THEY ARE NOT HELPING
THEIR TEACHERS ON THE FRONT
LINE.

Steve asks DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

Dave says I THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM.
I THINK FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO
UNDER STATE WHAT STRIKE VOTES
MEAN IS NOT PARTICULARLY
HELPFUL.
Mr. KENNEDY HAS TO BE VERY
CAREFUL THAT HE'S NOT -- SO
HANDS ON THESE THINGS THAT THEY
CAN'T BE RESOLVED AT THE LOCAL
LEVEL.
HE'S BEEN VERY HANDS ON WHEN IT
COMES TO COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.
IF THE TEACHERS GO AHEAD AND
PUSH 200 MINUTES PREP TIME, IT
IS VERY EXPENSIVE.
WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD TOO, WE CAN
LOOK TO THE OSTF.

Steve says THE CATHOLIC AND -- .

Dave continues AND THE PUBLIC SECONDARY THEY
WILL PROBABLY BE CHANGING
LEADERSHIP.
AND THEY WILL MOVE TO MORE
LEFTISH LEADERSHIP, WHICH IS
BAD NEWS FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
I DON'T KNOW, IT IS GOING TO BE
A TOUGH YEAR.
WE SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE
TOUGH.
I JUST REALLY.
I DON'T THINK THE PREP TIME,
GIVING INTO THE TEACHERS WOULD
BE SMART.
I DON'T THINK THAT 200 MINUTES
FOR EVERY TEACHER NO MATTER HOW
MANY YEARS'S EXPERIENCE AND NEW
TEACHERS WHO REALLY DO NEED MORE
PREP TIME THAT ARE SEASONED.
THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER THINGS
THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN IN
CONSIDERATION.
THAT WE WILL SPENT TENS OF
MILLIONS TO GIVE EVERYONE 200
MINUTES.

Sean says I WANT TO MAKE A POINT JANET
WAS GETTING TO.
2005 LOOKS LIKE A TOUGH YEAR FOR
THE ONTARIO ECONOMY.
THERE WILL BE SECTORS OF THIS
ECONOMY HAS WILL BE HURTING AND
HURTING SERIOUSLY.
I THINK IT WOULD BEHOOF PUBLIC
SECTOR LEADERSHIP NOT TO
PATRONIZE THEM.
THERE WILL BE AUTO WORKERS AND
WORKERS IN THE RESOURCE ECONOMY,
AND SOME OTHER PLACES THAT ARE
GOING TO BE LOOKING AT SOME OF
THIS, RATHER ASKANCE.
THE ONTARIO ECONOMY IS NOT GOING
TO COLLAPSE IN 2005, BUT IT IS
GOING TO BE A TOUGHER YEAR.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE AS ROBUST
IN TERM OF CLOTHE AS WE
EXPECTED.
THE GOVERNMENT'S FISCAL
SITUATION WILL BE MORE WORRISOM-
WE ALREADY HEARD THAT FROM THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE, TEACHERS
ARE OR CAN BE A FLASH POINT.
I THINK THEIR LEADER.

Steve asks TELLING THEM TO COOL
IT?

Sean says THERE ARE A LOT OF TAXPAYERS
WHO WILL SAY DO YOU UNDERSTAND
MY PAIN?
WE HAVE TO THE PAY THE BILL?

Janet says YES THE ECONOMY IS SLOWING
DOWN.
BUT THE PREMIER HAS A SOLUTION.
HE WILL CHANGE THE ONTARIO LOGO.
[laughter]
I WAS DETERMINED TO GET THAT
IN.

Steve asks WHERE IS YOUR TONGUE,
FIRMLY PLACED IN YOUR CHEEK?

Janet says I'M SORRY, OF ALL OF THE
ISSUES TO PICK OUT OF
SWITZERLAND-- IT SHOULD NOT BE
ONE OF THEM, YOU KNOW, ANYWAY,
IF THE TEACHERS WERE TO SAY WE
WANT MORE PREP TIME, AND HERE'S
THE ADDITIONAL TRAINING THAT WE
WILL TAKE AND HERE ARE THE
ADDITIONAL STEPS TO IMPROVE
STUDENT LEARNING, MAYBE THERE
WOULD BE A DEBATE OR DISCUSSION
TO HAVE HERE.
BUT THIS WAS ONE OF THE THINGS
THEY TOLD THIS GOVERNMENT.
WE WANT TO SCRAP ALL OF THE
REQUIREMENTS FOR PROFESSIONAL
DEVELOPMENT, FOR APPRAISAL OF A
TEACHER'S TEACHING ABILITY IN
THE CLASSROOM.
THEY SAID THEY WANTED ALL OF
THAT SCRAPPED.
AGAIN, IT IS GETTING BACK WHAT
ARE WE THERE TO, TO IMPROVE
STUDENT LEARNING NOT ARGUE AND
DEBATE ABOUT 200 MINUTES.

Steve says ELEMENTARY TEACHERS
ARE WIDELY PERCEIVED I THINK IT
IS FAIR TO SAY AS BEING LESS
CAPITAL POLITICAL AND LESS
INCLINED TO STRIKE THAN THEIR
HIGH SCHOOL COLLEAGUES IF YOU'RE
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION DO YOU
TAKE THESE THREATS LESS
SERIOUSLY BECAUSE IT IS THE
ELEMENTARY AND NOT THE SECONDARY
TEACHERS.

Dave says YOU WOULD DO IT AT YOUR
OWN PERIL.
I THINK THE ELEMENTARY TEACHERS
HAVE SHOWN THEY HAVE BEEN THE
MOST MILITANT.
THEY'RE PUSHING HARD ON THE 200
MINUTES.
WE ALMOST HAD THE A STRIKE IN
JUNE, BACK IN WINDSOR, WHICH WAS
GOING TO BE -- TO SET THIS UP
FOR THE REST OF THE PROVINCE FOR
THE 200 MINUTES.
I THINK THEY'RE SERIOUS AND I
HOPE THE MINISTER CAN FIND A
SOLUTION.

Steve says ONE MORE ITEM, THE
DISABLED NEW LEGISLATION THEY
SAY WILL MAKE ONTARIO BARRIER
FREE AT LAST.

A clip shows a woman in her forties sitting in front of a microphone. She has long black hair, and is wearing a black blazer and a black blouse.
A caption reads "Marie Bountrogianni. Minister of Children and Youth Services."

She says WITH THIS LEGISLATION, THE
GOVERNMENT PROPOSES ACTION TO
REMOVE THE BARRIERS FACING
ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES
WHETHER THOSE DISABILITIES ARE
VISIBLE OR INVISIBLE.
REAL FISCAL BARRIERS.
REAL TECHLOGICAL COMMUNICATIONS
BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS, AND VERY
IMPORTANTLY ATTITUDE NOT
BARRIERS.

Steve says IT HAS TAKEN DECADES
OF PRESSURE, AND ANOTHER TO GET
TO THE FINISH LINE BUT MANY IN
THE DISABLED COMMUNITY IS THE
APPLAUDING THE LEGISLATION
BROUGHT FORWARD BY BOUNTROGIANN-
SERVICES, COMMENDATION,
TRANSPORTATION, AND GOODS MUST
ALL BE AS ACCESSIBLE TO THE
DISABLED BY 2025, AS THEY ARE TO
ANYONE ELSE.
WHILE THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT IS
OPEN TO AMENDMENTS TO PROVIDE
FLEXIBILITY FOR SMALL BUSINESSES
IT FAR-REACHING COVERS THE
PRIVATE AS WELL AS THE PUBLIC
SECTOR.
MY CONSENSEOUS IS THERE IS A
CONSENSEOUS WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN
THE PROVINCE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK IT HAS COME
TOGETHER?

Janet says ANYTHING THAT ANY GOVERNMENT
OR ANYONE CAN DO TO HELP FURTHER
THE CAUSE OF PEOPLE WITH
DISABILITIES IS A GOOD THING.

Steve says LET ME STOP YOU.
TONS OF PEOPLE SAY YOUR
GOVERNMENT DIDN'T?

Janet says I DISAGREE QUITE FRANKLY.
FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS
WE PROMISED TO DO IS TAKE PEOPLE
WITH DISABILITIES OFF THE
WELFARE SYSTEM AND DO A
DIFFERENT INCOME.

Steve says YOU DID THAT.

Janet says AND WE WORKED WITH OTHER ALL
POLITICAL STRIPES AND WHATEVER
TO DO THAT.

Steve says THERE WAS NO
DISABILITYS ACT.

Janet says WE HAD AN ACT, AND SOME
LEGISLATION.
AND SOME OF THE SECTIONS
SECTIONS OF OUR LEGISLATION THE
LIBERALS SHOULD KEEP IN IT.
ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK IS
WORRISOME, ABOUT WHERE THE
LIBERALS ARE TAKING THIS
LEGISLATION, AND THE INTENT AND
SOME OF THE THINGS ARE VERY
GOOD.
THEY'RE REMOVING SOME OF THE
TRANSPERANCEY AND PUBLIC
ACCOUNTABILITY.
LET'S DO A REVIEW EVERY FIVE
YEARS AND HAVE MINISTRIES YOU
HAVE TO START WITH THE
GOVERNMENT.
THEY SHOULD SHOW THE LEADERSHIP,
BEFORE YOU PUT EXPECTATIONS ON
SMALL BUSINESS.
IT NEEDS TO BE THERE, BUT START
WITH THE GOVERNMENT FIRST.
AND THE PUBLIC REPORTING, THE
ACCOUNTABILITY, SOME OF THE
FINES, AND PENALTIES.
THE RIGOR OF THE SYSTEM THAT WE
WERE TRYING TO PUT IN PLACE.
AND THE LIBERALS SEEM TO BE
TAKING THAT OUT.
I THINK THAT'S A CONCERN,
BECAUSE I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE
THERE, SO PEOPLE CAN TRACK THE
PROGRESS.

Steve says THE TIME LINES GO 20
YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, IS THAT TOO
GENEROUS OF A TARGET FOR THIS TO
BE PUT IN PLACE?

Dave says I THINK IT IS ONE OF THE
CONCERNS THAT EXIST.
IF YOU LOOK AT 20 YEARS.
THE LAST 20 YEARS WE HAVE HAD
WHAT, SIX PREMIERS?
A LONG TIME, A LOT OF
POLITICAL ATTITUDES.
THE ECONOMY CAN CHANGE.
THAT'S A CONCERN.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THIS HAS BEEN
THROUGH A LONG PROCESS.
THERE WERE PROMISES BY THE
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.
REGARDLESS OF JANET'S SPIN ON IT
THERE CERTAINLY WAS NOT SUPPORT
IN THE COMMUNITY FOR THE ACT
THAT WAS THERE.

Steve says OR IN THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE SOME MIGHT SAY?

Dave continues THERE IS SUPPORT FOR THIS.
IT LOOKS LIKE THERE WILL BE
CONSIDERABLE SUPPORT IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO BE
CONGRATULATED.
IT WOULD BE NICE, IF WE COULD
SEE THOSE TIMELINE TIGHTENED UP
AND, PERHAPS FURTHER REVIEWS IN
THE FUTURE WILL SHORTEN THE 20
YEARS.

Steve says THERE IS SOME
OPPOSITION TO THE BILL.
I WONDER -- FOR EXAMPLE, SMALL
BUSINESSES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT
THE COST THAT WILL BE PUT ON TO
THEM.
IS IT SUCH THOUGH, THAT THE
CONSENSEOUS IS SO BROAD RIGHT
NOW, THAT THEY'RE AFRAID TO COME
FORWARD, BECAUSE THE NEGATIVE
PUBLICITY THEY WOULD GET FROM IT
WOULD BE REALLY TOUGH?

Sean says IN A WORD, YES.
I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WHILE IT IS A VIRTUOUS THING TO
DO.
AND I CAN COMMAND EVERYONE WHO
HAS BEEN ASSOCIATED IT DOES GET
A BIT EASIER AS YOU MOVE ALONG
WITH THE THIRD OR FOURTH ISSUE.
THERE ARE BETTER ASPECTS OF THE
BILL IN SOME OF THE EARLIER
ADDITIONS.
HE WOULD SAY THAT THE SENIOR
BUREAUCRATS INVOLVED WITH THIS.
TALKING ABOUT DOING GOOD IN
THIS CONNECTION IS ONE THING,
BUT ACTUALLY DOING GOOD, AND
BEING SEEM TO BE DOING GOOD IN
DOWNTOWN TORONTO AND IN DRYDEN
AND HAUX BERRY WILL BE A BIGGER
CHALLENGE THAN TALKING ABOUT IT.
ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THE BIG
GOVERNMENT HAS HAD IN THE LAST
25 TO 30 YEARS A LOT OF POLICIES
DRIVEN BY THERISTS AND
DESIGNERS.
WE NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME ON
PROGRAMME IMPLEMENTTATION.
MAKING THIS WORK IN A MOTEL IN
NORTHERN ONTARIO.
IN A GOVERNMENT OFFICE IN
DOWNTOWN TORONTO.
IT IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE A LOT
MORE CHALLENGING THAN JUST
TALKING ABOUT IT.

Dave says THERE'S A LOT IN THE BILL.
MAYBE THAT'S PART OF THE REASON
WITH THE TIME LINES.
BUT THERE'S PROCESSES OF
INVOLVING THE COMMUNITIES AND
I'M ASSUMING INVOLVING BUSINESS
AS WELL. HOPEFULLY BECAUSE I
AGREE.
IMMENTATION WILL BE KEY AND ONE
OF THE WEAKNESSES OF THE
GOVERNMENT OTHER POLICIES.

Janet says I THINK THE TIMELINES ARE
VERY LONG.
AND I DON'T SEE SOME OF THE
RIGOR IN THERE TO MAKE SURE
THAT PROGRESS HAPPENS
AND -- BECAUSE IT IS VERY MUCH
THE BUREAUCRACY, HAS A LOT OF
THE ABILITY THAT THEY MAY OR MAY
NOT DO THINGS, AS OPOSED TO
THEY SHALL DO THINGS.
THINGS SHOULD BE PUBLICALLY
REPORTED AND WHAT I WOULD BE
CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE PRESSURES
AS SEAN SAYS.
IT IS NOT EASY TO DO.
GOD BLESS THEM, BUT AS THE
PRESSURE BUILDS TO SAY WE CAN'T
DO IT THIS WAY OR THIS WAY.
THERE'S NO WAY TO TRACK IT AND
WE WILL END UP AT 20 -- WHATEVER
SAYING GEO, WE DIDN'T GET AS FAR
AS WE THOUGHT WE SHOULD.

Steve says ARE YOU CONCERNED OR
IS THE GOVERNMENT CONCERNED
THERE WOULD BE A BACKLASH
AGAINST THE DISABLED COMMUNITY
BECAUSE THE MOTEL OWNER IN
ONTARIO DOES NOT WANT TO SPEND
25 THANK YOU EXTRA TO PUT A RAMP
IN FRONT OF HIS OR HER MOTEL?

Sean says I'M NOT SAYING THE MOTEL IN
DRYDEN IS GOING TO BE
UNSUPPORTIVE, BUT I THINK
THEY'RE JUST GOING TO WANT THE
COMMON SENSE OF PRACTICAL
ONTARIANS TO HAVE SOME ROOM
HERE.
AGAIN I COMMEND THE MINISTER AND
THE GOVERNMENT FOR TAKING THE
POSITION, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE
A ONE SIZE FITS ALL.
AGAIN I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE
IMPORTANT GOVERNMENTS ARE
CONSTANTLY ISSUING NEW MAN TATES
NOT ONLY TO THEIR OWN OFFICIALS
BUT EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ECONOMY
AND THE WORKPLACE.
YOU HAVE TO THINK HOW WILL IT
ROLL OUT?
IS IT GOING TO DELIVER WHAT IS
EXPECTED?
BY THE WAY I THINK CANADIANS
HAVE SOMETHING IN GENERAL TO
LEARN FROM THE AMERICANS.
MY IMPRESSION IS AMERICANS TEND
TO DO IT BETTER.

Steve says THAT'S BECAUSE BOB
DOLE WAS SENATE MAJORITY LEADER
I THANK YOU FOR USING THE HOCKEY
ANALOGY WE HAVE NO HOCKEYY FOR
SO LONG.

Janet says WE HAVE TO GET IT IN
SOMEWHERE.

Steve says I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY, THANK YOU.

Music Plays and the end credits roll.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Rae Upton.

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority MMV.

Watch: Politics of Timing