Transcript: ER Crisis? | Jan 16, 2005

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of riots, and people working in an office appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON "4TH
READING."
UNWELCOME PATIENTS.

A clip shows a woman in her forties.

She says THIS ARE SOME HOSPITALS MORE
WILLING THAN OTHERS TO TAKE
HOMELESS PEOPLE.

Steve continues ALLEGATIONS THAT TWO
EMERGENCY WARDS ARE UNWILLING TO
TREAT THE HOMELESS.

Steve and 3 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, over a striped purple shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WELCOME TO "4TH READING."
A NEW HEALTHCARE HEADACHE IS
EMERGING FOR THE LIBERALS THE
WEEK STARTED WITH STORIES OF
BACKLOG TORONTO EMERGENCY ROOMS
CAUSING AMBULANCE DELAYS NOW
ALLEGATIONS HOW SOME ER ARE
TREATING OR NOT TREATING
HOMELESS PEOPLE.
PARAMEDICKIC SOURCES SAY TORONTO
GENERAL AND MOUNT SINAI ARE NOT
VERY HAPPY TO HAVE THE HOMELESS
LAND IN THEIR ERs NOW THE
MINISTRY OF HEALTH IS
INVESTIGATING.

A clip shows a woman in her forties. She has long wavy black hair, and is wearing a blue blazer.
A caption reads "Olivia Chow. Toronto City Councilor."

She says THERE ARE SOME HOSPITALS MORE
WILLING THAN OTHERS TO TAKE
HOMELESS PEOPLE, THAT IS TRUE.

Several clips show a hospital, and people lying down on the sidewalk.

Steve says SOURCES SAY SOME
HOSPITAL STAFF FEEL
UNCOMFORTABLE.
THEY SAY SOME HOMELESS PATIENTS
ARRIVE, NOT ILL, BUT ARE
INTOXICATED AND ARE RELEASED
ONCE THEY ARE SOBER SOME ARRIVE
IN THE STATE OF POOR HIGEN AND
REQUIRE ADDITIONAL WORK TO CLEAN
THEM UP.
ACCORDING TO SOURCES SOME STAFF
AT MOUNT GENERAL AND MOUNT SINAI
HAVE BEEN RELUCTANT TO ACCEPT
HOMELESS PATIENTS IN THE PAST.
THEY DENY THE ALLEGATION.

A clip shows a woman in her late forties. She has wavy short brown hair, and is wearing a gray wool blazer.
A caption reads "Debra Davies. Toronto General Hospital."

She says THEY ARE PROFESSIONALS I
WOULD BE SHOCKED TO HEAR THEY
WERE BEHAVEING DIFFERENTLY.
WE TREAT EVERYONE THE SAME
WHETHER YOU HAVE A LOT OF MONEY
OR DON'T HAVE A SENNA TO YOUR
NAME.
WE TRY TO LOOK AFTER EVERYONE
WITH THE SAME DIGNITY AND
RESPECT.
I'M QUITE SURPRISED.

Steve says MOUNT SINAI HAD THIS TO SAY

A caption appears on screen over the photo of a hospital. It reads "We are very surprised, actually stunned by the allegation. It is very unfair and untrue. Mount Sinai has absolutely no policy to discourage the homeless from being brought to the ER. We have a special emergency room committee to design programs and initiatives to better serve this population and a nurse working in ER on a fellowship dedicated to the homeless. I can’t guarantee what any nurse may have said at any particular moment but the committee and the fellowship shows proof of our commitment to better service the homeless." Jocelyn Bennett, Program Director of Nursing for Mount Sinai.

Several clips show ambulances at a hospital.

Steve continues HOSPITALS DO HAVE AN
OBLIGATION TO TREAT ALL PATIENTS
THAT ARRIVE IN EMERGENCY.
EMS DISPATCH, NOT INDIVIDUAL
HOSPITALS DETERMINES WHERE AN
AMBULANCE IS DIRECTED.
EARLIER THIS WEEK ONTARIO HEALTH
MINISTER GEORGE SMITHERMAN
RESPONDED TO QUESTIONS ON THIS
ISSUE.

A clip shows a man in his forties surrounded by journalists. He is clean-shaven, bald, with very short hair, and is wearing a black suit, white shirt, and red tie.
A caption reads "George Smitherman. Ontario Health Minister."
A woman says THERE WAS AN ALLEGATION THIS
MORNING AT LEAST ONE HOSPITAL IN
TORONTO DID NOT WANT HOMELESS
PEOPLE BROUGHT TO ITS ER.
ARE YOU GOING TO LOOK INTO THAT?

George says WELL, I HAVEN'T -- I HAVEN'T
SEEN THAT.
I THINK THAT'S I THINK THAT'S
REPREHENSIBLE ATTITUDE.

Steve continues THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE
MINISTER OF HEALTH HAS SINCE
SAID THE MINISTRY WILL
INVESTIGATE FURTHER.

Back in the studio, Steve says
HOW CAN THE GOVERNMENT
INSURE OUR HOSPITALS ARE DOING
ENOUGH TO TREAT THE HOMELESS AND
FIX A BACKLOG THAT HAS
PARAMEDICS SITTING AROUND FOR
HOURS, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET
THEIR PATIENTS INTO HOSPITAL ERs
SEAN CONWAY.
JANET ECKER, DAVE COOKE FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER I KNOW NONE
OF YOU WAS EITHER HEALTH
MINISTER BUT I'M SURE YOU
PARTICIPATED ON MATTERS RELATED
TO HEALTH AND THE HOMELESS.
SEAN, LET ME START WITH YOU.
IS IT A DIRTY SECRET WITHIN THE
HOSPITAL SECTOR THAT HOSPITALS
JUST REALLY DON'T LIKE TREATING
HOMELESS PEOPLE?

Sean is in his late early fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He is wearing a black suit, pale blue shirt, and spotted red tie.
A caption reads "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister."

Sean says I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN SOME
SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS IN RECENT
DAYS, PARTICULARLY IN TORONTO.
I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE THE
MINISTER OF HEALTH TO UNDERTAKE
AN INVESTIGATION TO SEE EXACTLY
WHAT IS GOING ON.
I THINK ALL OF US ARE FAMILIAR
WITH THIS SHALL HAVING BEEN
RAISED FROM TIME TO TIME IN THE
RECENT PAST.
THERE IS NO QUESTION THERE ARE
SOME REAL ISSUES IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO AROUND HOW BEST TO
ACCOMMODATE THE HOMELESS, BUT MY
EXPERIENCE IS THAT IT IS A
COMPLICATED FILE.
HOSPITALS, PARTICULARLY MODERN
HOSPITALS WE'RE TOLD ARE
DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH VERY
SPECIFIC KINDS OF ISSUES AND
THAT PUBLIC POLICY FLIES TEN
YEARS OR MORE HAS BEEN TO
PROVIDE COMMUNITY CARE FOR JUST
ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT
HIGH-END HEALTHCARE.
SO, I'LL TELL YOU THESE ARE
SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS.
I WOULD WANT TO KNOW MORE THAN I
KNOW NOW BEFORE I JUMP TO ANY
CONCLUSIONS.

Steve asks JANET HOW ABOUT YOU?

Janet is in her late forties, has short wavy brown hair, and is wearing a purple sweater over a white shirt, and glasses.
A caption reads "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister."

Janet says I THINK THE MINISTRY SAID
THEY WOULD LOOK INTO IT.
I THINK THEY SHOULD.
AND THE HOSPITALS HAVE BEEN
WARNED OF THE ISSUE.
I THINK HOSPITALS ARE TAKING IT
SERIOUSLYLY.
IN AN EMERGENCY WARD, SOME DAYS
FOR ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN THERE OR
WATCHED OR KNOWED STAFF.
ORGANIZED CHAOS WOULD BE A
POLITE WAY TO EXPLAIN WHAT
HAPPENS.
THEY HAVE TO MAKE CRUCIAL
DECISIONS AND DECIDE WHO GETS
CARE THIS MINUTE, AND WHO
DOESN'T AND WHO WAITS FOR HOURS
AND WHO DOESN'TS AND SOMETIMES
MAYBE THEY ARE MISINTERPRET
MISINTERPRETED.
I THINK WE NEED MORE INFORMATION
ON IT.

Steve says DAVE?

Dave is in his forties, clean-shaven, with very short brown hair. He is wearing a brown suit over a red turtleneck.
A caption reads "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Dave says I AGREE WE NEED MORE
INFORMATION, BUT IT RAISES THE
BIGGER QUESTION.
HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH
THIS?
WILL WE EVENTUALLY COME TO GRIPS
IN THIS CITY WITH THE ISSUE OF
HOMELESSNESS.
EMERGENCY WARDS -- ARE BEING
USED IN A VARIETY OF WAYS,
WHETHER IT IS HOMELESS WHO ARE
GOING THERE THAT SHOULD PROBABLY
BE GETTING SERVICE ELSEWHERE.
WHETHER THERE'S OTHER PEOPLE
WHERE WE SHOULD HAVE STRENGTHEN
PRIMARY CARE TO DIVERT PEOPLE
FROM EMERGENCY, THE HOMELESS, IN
PARTICULAR -- I MEAN I THINK
PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY ARE
BECOMING MORE AND MORE, AND MORE
AWARE THAT WE CAN'T CONTINUE TO
SAY A FEW MORE BEDS HERE.
A FEW MORE BEDS AND SHELTER
HERE.
IT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM GROWING IN
THIS CITY THAT HAS TO BE DEALT
WITH.

Sean ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO
KNOW.
DAVE COOKE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
MORE SPECIAL MORE EVIDENCE THERE
ARE SOME VERY HARD TO SERVE
FOLKS OUT THERE THAT ARE
GENERALLY CONSIDERED THE
HOMELESS.
I THINK GOOD PUBLIC POLICY HAS
TO BE REALISTIC.
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
THEY CLEARLY DO NEED SUPPORT AND
ATTENTION.

Steve asks IT HEENZ WHAT?

Janet says WELL -- ADDICTIONS FOR
EXAMPLES OR MIGHT HAVE CERTAIN
DISABILITIES OR SUFFER FROM
MENTAL ILLNESS.
DIFFICULT TO SERVE.

Sean says THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO
WILL JUST RECOIL FOR ANYTHING
TRADITIONALLY INSTITUTIONAL.

Janet says THAT'S TRUE.

Sean continues I DON'T HAVE ANY MAGIC ANSWERS I
KNOW FOR EXAMPLE BEING AROUND
THE INSTITUTIONAL MENTAL HEALTH
DEBATE.
THAT THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT AND
COMPLICATED THERE IS MORE AND
MORE EVIDENCE THAT WE HAVE MORE
STREET PEOPLE.
THAT'S CERTAINLY MY EVIDENCE.
I WORK NOW IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO
THREE OR FOUR DAYS A WEEK.
WHAT I SEE AT BAY AND KING IS
DEEPLY TROUBLING.
I DIDN'T SEE THAT MUCH AROUND
THE QUEENS PARK CIRCLE.
I SEE THINGS IN THE HEART OF
DOWNTOWN TORONTO ON COLD WINNER
MORNINGS OR EVENINGS THAT REALLY
TROUBLE ME.
I THINK EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE
SOMETHING DONE.
I WOULD WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT
WHO ARE THOSE PEOPLE?
WHAT NEEDS DO THEY HAVE?
AND WHAT ARE THE BEST
INSTITUTIONAL AND COMMUNITY
BASED RESPONSES THAT WILL MEET
THEIR NEEDS.
SOME OF IT WILL LOOK A LITTLE
UNCONVENTIONAL.

Steve says THE FINANCES.
OBVIOUSLY FINANCE PEOPLE AREN'T
CARRYING OHIP.
THERE'S NO QUESTION OF GETTING
REIMBURSEED?
IT IS NOT A FINANCIAL ISSUE.

Janet says IT SHOULDN'T BE.
I THINK ONE OF THE QUESTIONS
THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF
ASSUMPTION AND POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS THAT GETS BROUGHT
INTO BARRIE, WHAT TO DO WITH
THIS ISSUE.
I THINK IF PEOPLE WOULD SET THAT
ASIDE AND TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
OTHER JURISDITIONS DO THAT WORK.
WE ARE SPENDING MOUF MONEY ON
THIS ISSUE.
WE ARE GETTING MORE FOLK ON THE
STREET.
WHO IS HAPPENING IS NOT WORKING.
I THINK GOVERNMENTS -- IT IS NOT
EASY TO DO.
I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD ASK THOSE
HARD QUESTIONS OF POLICIES AND
GET OUT AND DO SOMETHING.

Dave says IT IS NOT WHERE WE NEED TO
HAVE SOME INDEPENDENT REVIEW OF
WHAT THE SITUATION IS.
EVERYONE IS WORRIED ABOUT BEING
POLITICLY CORRECT.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER WE COULD
BUILD 30,000 MORE UNITS OF
AFFORDABLE HOUSING TOMORROW.
IT WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM FOR
SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE STREET
BUT IT WOULDN'T SOLVE THE
PROBLEM FOR OTHER PEOPLE ON THE
STREETS.
AS SEAN SAID, IT IS A
MULTIFACETED PROBLEM.
I THINK WE NEED TO GET SOME
PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THIS.
DO A QUICK LOOK.
THERE'S LOTS OF RESEARCH AND
WORK DONE.
COME UP WITH PRACTICAL
SOLUTIONS.

Steve says LET ME DOVE TAIL THIS
INTO ANOTHER DISCUSSION, RELATED
TO THE EXPERIENCES OF PARAMEDICS
THEY ARE PICKING UP PATIENTS,
GOING TO EMERGENCY WARDS, TRYING
TO DROP PATIENTS OFF AT
EMERGENCY WARDS, BUT CAN'T
BECAUSE OF BACKLOGS AND END UP
SITTING THERE, WAITING, ONE, TWO
THREE, EIGHT HOURS TRYING TO GET
THEIR PATIENTS SOME ATTENTION.
AND THE MONEY BEING WASTEED IS
SIGNIFICANT.
OLIVIA CHOW IS A TORONTO CITY
COUNCIL AND IN CHARGE OF THE
FILE ON THE SUBCOMMITTEE OF CITY
COUNCIL.

A clip shows Olivia Chow at her office.

She says THE PARAMEDICS ARE STUCK IN
THE HOSPITAL WAITING AND WAITING
NOT DOING ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE
REALLY.
BETWEEN THE HOSPITAL AND THE
MINISTER OF HEALTH, THEY HAVE TO
FIND A SOLUTION.
WE'RE WASTING 5 MILLION A YEAR.
WE'RE WASTING THE AMBULANCES
THAT ARE SITTING IDLE AND THOSE
TOP-NOTCH, WELL-TRAINED
PARAMEDICS ARE SITTING THERE
DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
IT IS A COMPLETE WASTE.

A clip shows George Smitherman talking with the press.

He says SOME HOSPITALS HAVE IMPLEMENT
POLICIES THAT WORK WELL FOR THE
EMS.
OTHERS HAVEN'T.
I HAVE ASKED HILLARY SHORT TO
PLAY A LEADERSHIP ROLE AROUND.
WE NEED A COMPREHENSIVE
RESPONSE.
THAT'S WHAT I INTEND TO BRING
FORWARD.

A clip shows Steve, Sean, Janet and Dave back in the studio.

Steve says OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD
I CANNOT THINK OF A FEW PLACES
TO POINT FINGERS.
SOME SAY HOSPITALS ARE NOT
ADMINISTERING THEMSELVES WELL
ENOUGH.
OTHERS SAY THEY DON'T HAVE
ENOUGH MONEY FROM THE PROVINCE
AND ENOUGH BEDS TO PUT THE
PATIENT IN THAT'S WHY THE BACK
LOGS AND WE'RE WASTING MORE
MONEY JANET?

Janet says IT IS INTERESTING HOW COMPLEX
ARE WHEN YOU CAN'T BLAME IT ON
MIKE HARRIS.
YOU KNOW WHAT THE HEADLINE
WOULD HAVE READ, IF MIKE HARRIS
WAS STILL THERE.
IT IS A SYMPTOM OF A LOT OF
THINGS IN THE SYMPTOM, YES, SOME
HOSPITALS MANAGE THE SITUATION
BETTER THAN OTHERS.
SOME ARE ABLE TO HANDLE THE
SITUATION BETTER THAN OTHERS.

Steve asks WHY?

Janet continues THEY HAVE NOT EXPABED
EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT.
THERE ARE OTHER HOSPITALS
SAYING -- WE NEED TO EXPANNED
OUR EMERGENCY.
OR IT IS OUT OF DATE.
THEY ARE TAKING TWICE AS MANY
PATIENTS AS THE EMERGENCY WAS
DESIGNED FOR.
SOME HOSPITALS HAVE LEGITIMATE
REASONS AND THE MINISTRY HAS TO
TRY AND TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
AS A COMPHENCIVE SYSTEM.
THEY NEED EMERGENCY SUPPORT, AND
EMERGENCY SERVICES AND THE
COOPERATION OF THE HOSPITALS AND
THEY NEED TO GET ON WITH THE
CONSTRUCTION, TO EXPAND OR
RECONFIGURE A LOT OF THE
HOSPITALS.

Dave says THE PRIMARY HEALTHCARE REFORM
WOULD HELP A LITTLE.
BOTH OF YOU ARE ON HOSPITAL
BOARDS.
WHETHER GOVERNORANCE IS PART OF
THE PROBLEM. HAVE HOSPITALS
GOVERNED BY THEIR BOARDS AND THE
PARAMEDICS GOVERNED BY SOMEONE
ELSE.
EVERYONE GETS TO BLAME EVERYONE.
BUT NO ONE IS HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

Janet says ULTIMATELY THE MINISTER OF
HEALTH, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO
THE CURRENT MINISTER THE
MINISTER OF MEETING'S JOB IS PUT
THE SOLUTIONS IN PLACE, THE
LOCAL HEALTH NETWORKS IS ONE
STEP TO TRY TO GET THE SYSTEM
WORKING AS A SYSTEM.
THAT'S PART OF IT.
IT IS ALSO GIVING PEOPLE THE
OPPOSITION, SO THEY DON'T HAVE
TO GO TO EMERGENCY AT 6:00.

IT IS NOT JUST THAT, IT IS
TELA HEALTH, BEING ABLE TO CALL.
IT IS MORE PRACTITIONERS.
ACTUALLY HAVING A PRACTICER YOU
CAN GO TO, THAT'S PART OF THE
PROBLEM.
THERE'S A WHOLE RANGE OF ISSUES.

Steve says SEAN?

Sean says AGAIN I WANT TO KNOW MORE
ABOUT THE PARTICULAR PROBLEMS OF
PARTICULAR SOLUTION
INSTITUTIONS.
THOSE WHO KNOW THE HOSPITAL
SECTOR KNOW SOME SIMPLY HAVE
MORE USER FRIENDLY EMERGENCY
DEPARTMENTS WITH BIGGER VOLUMES
AND BETTER LAYOUTS I WANT TO
KNOW MORE ABOUT THE PROBLEM.
IT DOES APPEAR FROM TIME TO
TIME.
I THINK OVER THE LAST FOUR OR
FIVE YEARS -- .

Steve says BUDGET TIME.
I DON'T WANT TO BE CYNICAL.

Sean continues I DON'T WANT TO BE EITHER.
I HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE.
I WANT TO KNOW MORE.
DALTON McGUINTY AND GEORGE
SMITHERMAN HAVE MADE THE POINT
THEY WANT TO MOVE MORE IN
LOCALLY INTEGRATED HEALTH
NETWORKS TO BETTER COORDINATE ON
A REGIONAL BASIS ALL OF THE
SERVICES THAT COME INTO PLAY.

Steve says YOUR GOVERNMENT'S HEALTH
BUDGET THIS YEAR IS 31 BILLION DOLLARS.
THAT SOUNDS LIKE AN AWFUL LOT OF
MONEY.
IT SOUNDS LIKE IT SHOULD BE
ENOUGH TO SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM
UNDER THE SUN.

Sean says THAT'S WHY I WANT TO KNOW A
LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE
PARTICULARS OF THIS PROBLEM.
IT MAY WELL BE IT IS -- GOING TO
BE -- MORE OBVIOUS WHEN WE
SHOULD DO, ONCE WE HAVE BETTER
EVIDENCE, AS I SIGH, I DO TAKE
NOTE THERE SEEM TO BE A TIME IN
THE CYCLE WHEN THIS PROBLEM POPS
UP.
EVIDENCE I THINK IS REALLY
IMPORTANT.

Steve asks HOW MUCH WOULD YOU SAY
IS THE TYPICAL ANNUAL, AS SEAN
PUTS IT, I WOULD SAY POT DE DUO
OR POT DETRE SAYING WE DON'T
TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS.
I DON'T KNOW IF THE PARAMEDICS
HAVE AN ANGLE TO PLAY.
HOW MUCH OF IT IS THAT?

Janet says THERE'S NO QUESTION, WHEN
ANYONE IS TRYING TO LOBBY.
WHETHER THEY ARE NEGOTIATING OR
WANT MORE MONEY OR PUT PRESSURE
ON THE GOVERNMENT.
IT IS ALWAYS THE ATTACK TAKEN.
IT DOESN'T MINIMIZE THERE ARE
LEGITIMATE ISSUES THERE.
IT IS NOT SO MUCHHOW MUCH MONEY
YOU PUT INTO IT.
PERHAPS THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT
IS RECOGNIZING THAT MORE MONEY
IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE
PROBLEM.
WE PUT MORE MONEY IN.
WHEN WE WERE THERE AND WE STILL
HAD THESE PROBLEMS.
I THINK THIS SYSTEM HAS TO BACK
OFF.
AGAIN THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO DELIVER
HEALTHCARE.
THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THIS
AND LOOK AT OPTIONS THAT WILL
WORK?

Steve says A THIRD WAY, PREMIER KLEIN?

Janet says I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS PREMIER
KLEIN'S THIRD WAY.
WHO CARES WHO DELIVERS, AS LONG
AS IT IS ACCESSIBLE.
AS LONG AS IT IS GOOD QUALITY
AND MOST COST EFFECTIVE WAY.

Dave says WE CARE ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF
EFFICIENCY.

Janet says I SAY -- .

Dave continues THERE'S EVIDENCE THE PUBLIC
SECTOR IS MORE EFFICIENT.

Janet says THAT'S NOT TRUE.

Sean says ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES SAID A
WHILE AGO.
I THINK THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
UNFORTUNATELY FOR MORE HEALTH
CONSUMERS IT IS THE EMERGENCY
DEPARTMENT OF YOUR COMMUNITY
HOSPITAL THE POINT OF ACCESS FOR
PRIMARY CARE UNLESS AND UNTIL
THAT PROBLEM IS ADDRESSED
THROUGH A VARIETY OF INITIATIVE
IN RURAL, URBAN AND NORTHERN
CANADA.
SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS WILL
REMAIN WITH US.

Steve says IT SPEAKS TO THE OMA
AGREEMENT BACK UNNEGOTIATION.

Janet says ONE MORE TIME WITH FEELING.

Steve says ONCE AGAIN WITH
FEELING.
WHERE ARE WE WITH THAT?
WE SPOKE ABOUT THE NOTION OF
WHO'S ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE.
IF THE PARAMEDICS CAN BLAME THE
HOSPITALS AND THE HOSPITALS CAN
BLAME THE PROVINCE.
AND THE PROVINCE CAN BLAME THE
HOSPITALS, HOW DOES THIS EVER
GET RESOLVED?

Dave says I THINK SOME OF IT WE NEED TO
COME TO GRIPS WITH GOVERNORANCE
AND LOOK AT MORE REGIONAL
GOVERNORANCE SO IT DOESN'T
ALWAYS GO BACK TO THE MINISTRY
OF HEALTH.

Steve says YOU CAN'T STORM THE
BARRICADES SAYING WE NEED BETTER
GOVERNANCE.

Dave says LOOKING WHO CAN BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE.
THEY CAN BE WORKED OUT BETTER AT
THE LOCAL LEVEL, BUT IT IS
DIFFICULT IF THEY HAVE THEIR
SPHERE OF RESPONSIBILITY AND THE
PARAMEDICS HAVE THEIR GOVERNANCE.
WE NEED SOMEONE TO SOLVE THE
PROBLEMS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

Steve says WE WILL GO TO YOUR
FAVOURITE TOPIC THREE TEA
TOTALLERS.
BOOZE SALES UNDER THE GOVERNMENT
MICROSCOPE ONCE AGAIN.

A clip shows a man in his fifties at a press conference. He is clean-shaven, has short curly gray hair, and is wearing a dark gray suit, white shirt, and striped blue and brown tie.
A caption reads "Greg Sorbara. Ontario Finance Minister."

He says THIS IS ABOUT THE COMMITMENT
TO REVIEW ALL MAJOR ASSET.
I MENTIONED IT IN THE BUDGET ON
MAY 18, AND IN THE FALL ECONOMIC
STATEMENT WE WILL UNDERTAKE
REVIEWS OF ALL MAJOR ASSETS THE
LCBO IS ONE OF THE LARGEST ASSET
THAT THE PROVINCE HOLDS.
THE BEVERAGE ALCOHOL SYSTEM IS
EVEN LARGER THAN THAT.
IT MAY BE THAT THERE'S MORE
VALUE FOR TAXPAYERS THAT CAN BE
A CHIEFABLE.

A clip shows a man in his early fifties talking with the press. He is clean-shaven, has short brown hair, and is wearing a black suit, and a pale blue shirt.
A caption reads "Jim Flaherty. PC Finance Critic."

He says I CAN ONLY GUESS AS FINANCE
MINISTER HE'S DESPERATE FOR
REVENUE AND LOOKING TO GET MORE
REVENUE OUT OF THE DISTRIBUTION
OF ALCOHOL AND BEER IN THE
PROVINCE.

A clip shows a woman in her late forties talking with a man of the press. She has short brown hair, and is wearing a black blazer over a red blouse.
A caption reads "Marilyn Churley, MPP. NDP, Toronto-Danforth."

She says HOSPITALS ARE TALKING ABOUT
LAYING OFF HUNDREDS OF NURSES
AND THERE'S ALL KINDS OF
PROBLEMS.
IT IS A HUGE DIVERSION TACTIC
LIKE SUSHI AND PIT BULLS AND
BRINGING YOUR WINE TO
RESTAURANTS TO DISTRACT THE
PUBLIC ABOUT THE BIGGER ISSUES
THAT HAVE MUCH MORE IMPACTS ON
THEIR LIVES, THAN WHETHER OR NOT
WE CAN BUY BEER AT THE CORNER
STORE.

Steve says THE FINANCE MINISTER
SAYS THE LCBO IS DEFINITELY NOT
FOR SALE.
BUT GREG SOBARA HAS NOT RULED
OUTSELLING BEER AND WINE ON
CORNER STORES OR FRANCHISING THE
LCBO BROUGHT IN MORE THAN A
BILLION DOLLARS TO PROVINCIAL
COUGHERS LAST YEAR.
IS THIS A WAY TO BRING IN MORE
MONEY TO A CASH STRAPPED
GOVERNMENT OR A BADLY NEEDED
OVERHALL OR JUST A TRIAL
BALLOON?
SEAN CONWAY, SHOOT?

Sean says IS IT ABOUT MORE MONEY,
ABSOLUTELY I HAVE NEVER MET A
GOVERNMENT NOT INTERESTED IN
WRINGING MORE PROPHETS OUT OF A
TAXING A VICE.
I THINK IT IS PROBABLY TIMELY I
READ IT TO MEAN THAT THIS CROWN
JEWEL, THE LIQUOR COOL BOARD
THAT PRODUCES AN DIVENDS TO HER
MAJESTY'S PURSE OF 100 MILLION,
UP 200 MILLION.

Janet says I THINK IT IS UP TO 1.4
BILLION.
THE CHAIRMAN HAS DONE FRANKLY I
KNOW PEOPLE LIKE TO DUMP ON HIM.
HE HAS DONE A MARVELOUS JOB.

Steve says HE'S BEEN APPOINTED FOUR
TIMES.

Janet continues THE LCBO HAS BEEN AN
INSTITUTION I CAN REMEMBER THE
FIRST TIME I BOUGHT CHO. I WON'T
TELL WHEN.
BUT YOU WENT IN WITH THE LITTLE
PIECE OF PAPER.
AND WE'VE DONE THROUGH ANDY'S
LEADERSHIP AND A LOT OF PEOPLE
PART OF THE TEAM YOU HAVE MORE
CHOICE, MORE CONSUMER CHOICE
AND SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY AND
MORE PROFITS, THE OTHER THING
THE CURRENT MINISTER HAS TO BE
CAREFUL OF IT HAS PROMOTED AN
ONTARIO INDUSTRY, CALLED ONTARIO
WINE.
THERE'S A WHOLE THRIVING
INDUSTRY.

Steve says ALL OF THAT HAVING
BEEN SAID.
WHY DOES THE MINISTER FEEL THE
NEED TO APPOINT FOUR HIGH
PROFILE PEOPLE.

Janet says POLITICAL COVER TO COME UP
WITH INCOME TRUST THE EASIEST
WAY TO GET BIG CHUNKS OUT OF THE
LCBO.
A BIG CHEQUE SAYING AREN'T WE
WONDERFUL, HOWEVER, IT IS ONE
TIME CASH.
SECONDLY AN INCOME TRUST WILL
PUT THE WRONG INCENTSTIVES IF
YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE
BETWEEN PUTTING ONTARIO BOTTLE
OF WINE ON THE SHELF WHICH MAY
NOT MOVE AS FAST BUT GENERATES
MORE JOBS FROM ONTARIO.
SOMETHING IMPORTED MAY TURN OVER
FASTER BUT MAKE A QUICK PROFIT.
IF YOU ARE RUNNING INCOME YOU'RE
INTERESTED IN THE CASH.

Dave says IT IS A CLUE OF WHAT WAS
ABOUT WHO MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
THE FINANCE MINISTER IS NOT IN
CHARGE OF LIQUOR POLICY.
IT IS THE MINISTER OF CONSUMER
OR -- WHATEVER THE PROPER TITLE.

Janet says THE FINANCE MINISTER IS
ALWAYS ON THE LIQUOR POLICY.

Dave continues I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO THINK
WHY THIS IS BEING DONE.
MAYBE ANOTHER REASON TOO.
CORNER STORES ARE QUITE ANNOYED
RIGHT NOW OF TOBACCO POLICY.

Janet says YES.

Dave continues AND IF THERE'S A WAY OF
GETTING SOME OF THIS INTO THE
CORNER STORES, THAN THAT'S GOING
TO MAKE UP FOR LOST REVENUE ON
THE TOBACCO SIDE.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN
CRITICIZED FOR BEING A LITTLE
TOO PER SCRIPTIVE OF THE
LIFESTYLE ISSUES THIS IS A WAY
OF SAYING WE'RE QUITE SMALL L
LIBERAL WHEN IT COMES TO
LIFESTYLE.
AND THEN OF COURSE, THE
"MONEYWISE," BUT BOY I THINK IT
WOULD BE A REALLY WRONG DECISION
IF THEY DID THE INCOME TRUST
ANOTHER WAY OF PRIVATIZING MEANS
YOU TAKE A CHUNK OF MONEY AND
JUST BLOW IT IN ONE YEAR WHETHER
IT IS AGAINST THE DEFICIT OR
WHATEVER.
IF YOU WANT TO RAISE THAT
CAPITOL.
YOU SHOULD INVEST IT IN LONG NOT
JUST APPLY IT ONCE AND THEN IT
IS GONE.

Sean says I DON'T SHARE MY COLLEAGUES
VIEWTY WILL LEAD US TO AN INCOME
TRUST.
I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT A
GOVERNMENT SAYING, BY THE WAY,
NOT JUST ABOUT LIQUOR.
IT COVERS BEER AND WINE.
I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN SOME
INTERESTING THINGS BRUTED ABOUT
THE BRUTERS RETAILER.
WATCH NOT JUST THE LIQUOR PART.
BUT THE BEER AND THE WINE PART
OF IT.
AS JANET POINTED OUT.
IF YOU LOOK OVER THE LAST 10 TO
12 YEARS THAT ANDY BRANDT HAS
BEEN RUNNING THE LIQUOR CONTROL
BOARD.
HE HAS BEEN VERY CREATIVE.
HE HAD BEEN CREATIVE THINGS
ABOUT INCREASING THE YIELD.
I THINK IT IS ABOUT MORE MONEY
AND HOPEFULLY MORE MODERN AND
RESPONSIVE TO THE CONSUMER.

Steve says IS IT APPROPRIATE TO
TELL THE BLUE RIBBON COMMISSION
YOU HAVE APPOINTED.
LOOK AT EVERYTHING.
EXCEPT THE 800 POUND PINK
ELEPHANT.
I WON'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE IT IS
ONE OF THE THINGS YOU CAN TALK
ABOUT.
THAT'S WHAT Mr. SOBARA SAID AT
THE NEWS CONFERENCE BUT YOU
CAN'T CONSIDER PRIVITIZATION.
DO YOU THINK IT IS WISE TO TAKE
IT OFF THE TABLE?

Sean says I THINK IT IS.
IF THEY OPEN THE DOOR IT TAKES
THEM IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT
DEBATE.
WE LAUGH AROUND THIS PROVINCE.
LIQUOR POLICY IS ONE OF THE MOST
CONTROVERSIAL AND DECISIVE ISSUE.
HAPPYILLY INRINE TIME IT HAS
CALMED DOWN A BIT.
WE HAVE A DIFFERENT ONTARIO IN
2005, THEN WHEN GEORGE DREW AS
PREMIER OF ONTARIO LOST HIS OWN
ELECTION IN THE WEST END ON
TORONTO IN THIS SUBJECT IN 1948.
IT IS STILL GOING TO TAKE YOU
INTO NONCOMMERCIAL AREAS LIKE
ACCESS TO LIQUOR BY YOUNG
PEOPLE.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE MOTHERS
AGAINST DRUNK DRIVING AND POLICE
FORCES AND OTHERS QUICKLY GET
INTO THIS DEBATE.
ON THE OTHER HAND I THINK THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE MADE PLANE
HE HAS A FISCAL PROBLEM.
A MULTIBILLION DEFICIT HE HAS TO
BRIDGE.

Janet says THEY PROMISED THEY WOULD DO
ASSET SALES THEY BUILT IT INTO
THE FISCAL PLAN.
1.9 BILLION SAID TO USE IT TO
BALANCE THE BUDGET.
THIS DIDN'T AND THEY DIDN'T
BALANCE THE BUDGET.
THEY HAVE AN UNDELIVERED
PROMISE.

Sean says THEY HAVE SOME TOUGH CHOICES
I DON'T DOUBT IT.
I CAN'T REMEMBER A PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT IN THE LAST 25 YEARS
AT SOME POINT IN ITS MANDATE
DIDN'T AVERT IN SOME
FASHION -- .

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE TREASURY
BOARD PUTS THE NUMBERS IN FRONT
WHAT YOU COULD GET FOR THIS
THING.
IT IS HARD NOT TO LOOK AT IT.

Janet says POTENTIALLY BILLIONS.

Steve says WITH AN S ON THE END.

Janet says IT IS A ONE-YEAR SELLING A
FUTURE INCOME STREAM.
THAT'S WHAT INCOME TRUST IS.
YOU'RE RENTING OR SELLING YOUR
FUTURE INCOME STREAMS.
PROVINCIAL AUDITORS MAY TAKE A
DIM VIEW.
THERE'S NO QUESTION.
IF THEY DO THIS THEY COULD GET A
WHACK OF CASH ABOUT ELECTION
TIME.

YOUR AUDIENCE NEEDS TO
UNDERSTAND ON THE REVENUE LINE
EVERY YEAR TO THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO THE LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD
OR WHATEVER WE CALL IT PRODUCES
A DIVENED A LITTLE OVER A
BILLION DOLLARS.
YES, YOU COULD SELL THIS.

AND SOME ADDITIONAL TAX AS
WELL. IF YOU WERE TO SELL THAT,
AS JANET SAYS YOU CAN GET A BIG
ONE-TIME HIT.
I'LL TELL YOU IN A FEW YEAR'S
TIME I SPECULATE ON AN ANNUAL
BASIS HAVE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS
OF DOLLARS OF LOST REVENUE TO
MAKE UP.
RIGHT NOW Mr. SOBARA IS LOOKING
AT A GAP.

Dave says SOME PEOPLE THINK IT IS TOO
MUCH.
1.1 BILLION OR WHATEVER WE GET.
THAT'S ONE POINT OF SALES TAX.
BEFORE THE PUBLIC THINK IT IS
A HUGE WHACK OF MONEY, IT IS,
BUT IT IS ONLY ONE POINT OF THE
SALES TAX.

Janet says THEY'VE LOST A LITTLE ROOM IN
TERM OF BEING ABLE TO RAISE
TAXES SINCE THEY DID IT ONCE.

Dave says I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT I.

Janet continues THE OTHER INTERESTING THING
TO LOOK AT THIS GOVERNMENT AND
SAY THEY RAYED TAXES.
THEY'RE GETTING 2.7 -- 2.5
BILLION.
THEY'RE GETTING A NEW WHACK OF
NEWEN WHO AND NEW WHACK OF MONEY
FROM OTTAWA.
THE ECONOMY IS NOT DOING TOO
BADLY.
WHERE'S ALL OF THE MONEY GOING.
THE DEFICIT IS STILL WELL -- .
A LOT IS.
WHERE'S THE SAVINGS STRATEGY
THEY PROMISED?
JAND THE ASSET SALES STRATEGY.

Sean says THERE'S A PROGRAMME REVIEW
UNDERWAY AT THE MINISTRY OF
FINANCE.
I EXPECT WHEN Mr. SOBARA TABLES
HIS 2005 BUDGET THERE WILL BE
SOME CONTROVERSIAL AND PERHAPS
PAINFUL ANSWERS TO JANET'S
QUESTIONY, IT'S NOT GOING ON FOR
SOME TIME.

Steve says 20 YEARS AGO YOUR
LEADER DAVID PETERSON AT CORNER
STORE ON KEEL NEAR FINCH SAYING
ONTARIO IS A MODERN PLACE.
WE CAN HAVE BEER AND WINE IN THE
CORNER STORES.
20 YEARS LATER IT HASN'T
HAPPENED AND ALL THREE OF THE
PARTIES HAVE STUDIED THIS.
WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE ANYTHING
WILL CHANGE THIS TIME?

Sean says A LOT HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST
15 YEARS, IF YOU ELECTRIC AT THE
WAY LCBO RETAILS ITS PRODUCTS
COMPARED TO 15 YEARS AGO.
A LOT OF THE CHANGE IS INCREMENTAL
BUT NOT INSIGNIFICANT I REMEMBER THE
DEBATE AND THE PETERSON
GOVERNMENT OF WHICH I WAS A PART
INTRODUCING LEGISLATION TO MAKE
IT HAPPEN IN THE LEGISLATURE AND
IT WAS DEFEATED AT THAT TIME.
WE DECIDED NOT TO REVISIT THE
SUBJECT LATER IN THE MANDATE.

Janet says MIKE HARRIS SAID HE
WASN'T GOING TO PRIVATIZE HE
SAID WHY WHEN I'M GETTING
EVERYTHING OUT OF PRIVATIZING
BETTER CONSUMER CHOICE AND
VALUE.
IN ALL OF THE OBJECTIVE HE WAS
GETTING FROM THE CURRENT
STRUCTURE.
WE LEFT IT.

Steve says STATUS QUO IS OKAY.
OKAY.
WE HAVE ONE MOMENT LEFT IN THE
PROGRAMME -- .

Dave says LET ME JUST RAISE SOMETHING
FROM LAST WEEK'S SHOW WHICH I
IMMENSELY ENJOYED LAST WEEK'S
SHOW ON EDUCATION THERE MIGHT
HAVE BEEN ONE POINT WHEN
SPEAKING OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO SECONDARY FED
BARKLEY THAT WAS NOT APPROPRIATE
TO MAKE AND NOT CENTRAL TO THE
DEBATE.
I JUST REALLY WOULD FEEL BETTER
IF I COULD TELL PEOPLE IF I
OFFENDED ANYONE, I APOLOGIZE.

Steve says IT IS ON THE RECORD.
SEAN CONWAY, JANET ECKER, DAVE
COOKE.
THANKS FOR THIS THIS WEEK.
BEFORE I SIGN OFF A
CORRECTION OF MY OWN A FEW WEEK
AGO WE DID THE TRIVIA QUIZ I
THINK I SAY HARRY PEROT WAS THE
FIRST MINISTER IN HISTORY PEOPLE
HAVE E-MAILED ME I'M WRONG.
IT WAS GEORGE KERR FROM
BURLINGTON 1971 FIRST
ENVIRONMENT MINISTER DID HE END
UP SWIMMING IN THE BAY.

Sean says NO, BUT HE PROMISED.

Steve says HARRY PEROT AND GEORGE KERR MY
APOLOGIES I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY, THANK YOU.

Music Plays and the end credits roll.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Rae Upton.

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority MMV.

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