Transcript: Universities and Colleges System | Oct 03, 2004

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an
animated number 4.

A clip shows a student studying at school then changes to the former
premier standing at a podium.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON
"FOURTH READING," GETTING
THE BEST OUT OF THE OUR BEST
AND BRIGHTEST.
FORMER ONTARIO PREMIER TAKES
HARD LOOK AT THE FUTURE OF
POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION.

Steve, Bob, Janet, Richard, and another panelist sit around a table
in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown
hair. He's wearing a grey coat over a dark blue polo shirt.

Steve says HIGH EVERYBODY I AM STEVE
MCQUEEN THIS IS "FOURTH
READING."
IT IS NOT EVERY DAY OF THE
WEEK THAT PREMIER FROM ONE
PARTY TELEPHONES FORMER
PREMIER FROM ANOTHER PARTY
AND ASKS FOR RATHER BIG
FAVOUR.
BUT PREMIER DALTON MCGUINTY
HAS ASKED TWO OF HIS PREDECESSORS FOR
HELP IN DESIGNING AND PAYING
FOR AN IMPROVED POST
SECONDARY EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR ONTARIO. FORMER PC PREMIER
BILL DAVIS SAID YES.
AND SO DID TODAY'S GUEST
FORMER NDP PREMIER BOB RAY WHO CHAIRS THE TASK FORCE.

Bob appears in the studio. He has grey hair and is clean-shaven. He
wears a grey jacket and white shirt with blue, green and purple
bowties on his tie.

A clip shows students walking around on campus and the view of
several campus buildings.

Steve says LAST WEEK THE COMMITTEE
RELEASED DISCUSSION PAPER
AND NOT MOMENT TOO SOON.
THE CURRENT PREMIER WANTS
SOME HOT RECOMMENDATIONS FOR HIGHER EDUCATION ON
HIS DESK BY JANUARY.

Steve says ONTARIO’s COLLEGE AND
UNIVERSITIES SAY THEY ARE
BUCKLING UNDER WHAT THEY
CALL CHRONIC UNDER FUNDING
IN ONTARIO’S POST SECONDARY SYSTEM
THEY SAY ONTARIO’S SCHOOLS HAVE
LOWEST FUNDING LEVELS IN
THE COUNTRY.

The caption changes to "Michael Doucet. Ontario Confederation of
University Faculty Association."

Michael is in his forties. He has dark brown hair that is parted to
the side, glasses and a blue shirt.

Michael says WHETHER YOU LOOK PER CAPITA,
FUND OR ON THE BASIS OF
ENTIRE ONTARIO POPULATION OR
WHETHER YOU LOOK AT PER
STUDENT FUNDING, WE ARE 10TH
AND DEAD LAST I THINK IF
THEY HAD A UNIVERSITY NUNAVE
AT THE WE WOULD BE 11th.

A clip shows Bill Davis wearing a brown suit with brown hair walking
with a police officer. Then the clip shows Marian standing at the
podium and speaking to the crowd.

Steve says BUT IT WASN’T ALWAYS THIS WAY IN THE 1960S THEN
MINISTER BILL DAVIS
BEGAN PERIOD OF UNPRECEDENTED EXPANSION
FOR ONTARIO’S COLLEGES AND
UNIVERSITIES.
BUT SINCE THOUGHS GOLDEN DAYS
FUNDING HAS STEADILY
DECREASED.
UNDER THE HARRIS TORRIES
OPERATING GRANTS DECLINED BY
25 PERCENT.
WHILE TUITION SKYROCKETED BY
130 PERCENT.
MARIAN CHAMBER??S CURRENT
MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR
ADDRESSING THIS SITUATION.

Mary Anne is in her fifties and has grey hair and glasses she wears
a black jacket.

The caption changes to "Mary Anne Chambers. Ministry of Training
Colleges and Universities."

Mary Anne says IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT
THAT EVERY ONTARIANS WHO
WANTS TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS
COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY
EDUCATION SHOULD BE ABLE TO
DO SO WHETHER OR NOT THEY
ARE WEALTHY.

A clip shows liberals speaking at a conference and students walking
to class, then Bob Ray addressing people.

A panel appears and reads "Increasingly large class sizes, shortage
of instructors/professors, fewer dollars for research."

Steve says THE LIBERALS HAVE ALREADY
FROZEN TUITION FOR TWO
YEARS.
AND HAVE BROUGHT IN CHANGES
TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR
STUDENTS TO ACCESS LOANS.
COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITIES SAY
THEY ARE ALSO STRUGGLING
WITH HOST OF OTHER PROBLEMS.
INCLUDING, INCREASING LARGE
CLASS SIZES A SHORTAGE OF INSTRUCTORS AND PROFESSORS AND ONE THIRD
WHOM ARE NOW
NEARING RETIREMENT.
AND FEWER DOLLARS FOR
RESEARCH.
RESPONSE THE LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS CALLED ON
FORMER PREMIER BOB RAY TO
RECOMMEND CHANGES TO THE
SYSTEM.

Mary Ann says I AM TALKING ABOUT A
FAR-REACHING REVIEW.
PEOPLE ARE REALLY PLEASED
WITH THE LEVEL OF THE
CONSULTATION THAT ARE ON THE
WAY.
SO I THINK IT IS GOING IN
THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

Steve says ROSARIO MARCHESE SAYS BLUNTLY
THAT MEANS RAISING TAXES.

The caption changes to "Rosario Marchese.NDP Training, Colleges and
Universities Critic."

Rosario has short brown hair and wears a brown suit with white shirt
and stripped brown tie.

Rosario says WE HAVE TO REENVEST AND
WE MEANS WE NEED NEW SOURCES
OF FUNDING TO COME INTO OUR
PROVENTIAL COUGHERS TO BE
ABLE TO PAY FOR WHAT WE
CONSIDER ESSENTIAL IN IF
ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION
ARE IMPORTANT TO US WE’VE GOT TO PAY FOR IT.

The caption changes to "Elizabeth Witmer. MPP. PC, Kitchener-
Waterloo."

Elizabeth is in her forties and has short brown hair with fringe;
she wears a khaki shirt and leopard scarf.

Elizabeth says IT’S A HUGE JOB BUT
I DON'T THINK ANY TIME CAN
BE WASTED.
IN REVIEWING THIS OVER A
PROLONGED PERIOD OF TIME I
THINK THEY NEED TO DEVELOP
PLAN OF ACTION AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

Mary Anne says WE ARE READY TO MOVE IN
FACT, WE ESTABLISH THIS VERY
AGGRESSIVE TIME LINE OF
JANUARY OF 2005 BECAUSE WE
WANT TO BE ABLE TO INFLUENCE
THE BUDGET PROCESS IN 2005.
WE KNOW IT IS VERY IMPORTANT
TO MOVE US BRISKLY AS
POSSIBLE ON THIS.

Steve says AND NOW TO REPORT ON THE
PREMIER'S PROGRESS THE 21ST PREMIER OF ONTARIO.
THERE IS BOB RAY.
WELCOME BACK TO TVO.

Bob says NICE TO BE BACK AGAIN.

Steve says IS IT REALLY.
YOU WERE JUST ASKING ME A SECOND AGO WHAT AM I
DOING HERE? I’M NOT SO SURE.

[Laughter]

Steve says THESE FOLKS ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE TABLE FORMER EDUCATION MINISTER
SEAN CONWAY;

Sean appears in the studio and he has short brown hair and glasses.
He wears a grey jacket with blue shirt and maroon coloured striped
tie.

Steve says FORMER EDUCATION MINISTER JANET
ECKER;

Janet appears in the studio. She is in her forties and has short
brown hair in a pixie cut. She wears glasses, a blue jacket, golden
circular broach and a paisley blue and gold shirt.

Steve continues AND A GUY WHO PROBABLY
GAVE YOU HARD TIME AT THE
CABINET TABLE ONCE OR TWICE OR THRICE THERE IS DAVE
COOK YOUR EDUCATION MINISTER
FROM THE PAST.

Dave appears in the studio. He has short brown hair and is clean-
shaven. He wears a black shirt beneath a blue and white pinstripe
jacket.

Steve says SERIOUS FOR A SECOND PENAL
ONE SAYS I THINK OUR SYSTEM
OF HIGHER EDUCATION IN
ONTARIO IS IN SERIOUS
JEOPARDY WHAT IN PARTICULAR
IS IN SERIOUS JEOPARDY?

The caption changes to "Bob Rae. Advisor to the Premier."

Bob says QUITE SIMPLY WE ARE FALLING BEHIND
COMPARED TO HOW WE WERE
DOING BEFORE.
HOW OTHER PROVINCES ARE
DOING IN TERMS OF THE AMOUNT
THAT THEY ARE INVESTING AND
MORE IMPORTANT HOW OTHER
JURISDICTION WHAT OTHER
PLACES IN WORLD ARE DOING.
THE PROBLEM IS THE SIGNS OF THIS
ARE NOT VISIBLE IF YOU SEE
PEOPLE EMERGENCY WAITING
LISTS AND SO ON ARE VERY,
VERY VISIBLE.
BUT WHEN SYSTEM STARTS TO
SHOW SIGNS OF DETERIOATION,
AND WE ARE NO NOT PLANNING
ENOUGH FOR THE FUTURE OR
NOT MAKING THE INVESTMENTS THAT WE
NEED TO MAKE IT TAKES TIME
FOR THAT TO BE SEEN AND
VISIBLE BUT I THINK WE ARE
BEGINNING TO SEE IT NOW.

Steve says YOU ARE TALKING
MORE THAN CRUMBLING BUILDINGS?

Bob says WELL YES THE BUILDING.
WE HAVE A 1.8 BILLION DEFERED
MAINTENANCE PROBLEM.
IN TERMS OF THE SHEAR INFRASTRUCTURE -- THAT'S VERY SMALL
PART OF PROBLEM.
THE PICTURE OF THIS IS WE HAVE
GOT FAR MORE STUDENTS GOING
NOW THAN WE EVER HAD BEFORE.
SO, WE ALSO HAVE YOU KNOW
TEACHERS GETTING OLDER AND A
AGING OF THE PROFESORATE SO YOU GOT TO
RENEW THAT.
WE DON'T HAVE GRADUATE SPACE
WE HAVE GOT TO GET MORE
PEOPLE BEING TRAINED IN ONTARIO.SO
WE ARE NOT JUST TRAINING FOR
OURSELVES SO THAT ONTARIO
CAN BECOME POWERHOUSE OF
EDUCATION TO THE WORLD WE
HAVE ENORMOUS POTENTIAL.
WE DID BUILD WELL IN PAST WE
HAVE BUILT A GOOD INFRASTRUCTUR WE
GOT TO BACK AND INVEST IN IT. I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO
GET AT NOW
IN FALL -THIS DEBATE IS GOING TO START THIS FALL THAT'S
IS HOW
ARE WE ARE GOING DO THAT?
WHAT'S THE BEST WAY DO IT?
WHATS THE MOST EFFECTIVE AND FAIR IS
EFFICIENT WAY DO IT BECAUSE
RENEWING OUR UNIVERSITIES
AND COLLEGES, IS REALLY
CRITICAL FOR THE ECONOMY OF
ONTARIO IT IS WHAT IS GOING
TO PLACE US IN FOREFRONT AND
IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC
ACTIVITY AND GROWTH AND
INNOVATION IN THE 21ST
CENTURY AND THAT'S WHY IT IS
IMPORTANT TO GET ON WITH.

Steve says I KNOW YOU HAVE
THREE MONTHS LEFT BEFORE YOU
HAVE GIVE YOUR
RECOMMENDATION TO THE PREMIER.
SO I DON'T EXPECT YOU TO
HAVE ALL OF THE ANSWERS YET.
HOWEVER WHAT ARE SOME OF THE
IMPORTANT QUESTIONS THAT YOU
ARE DISCUSSION PAPER WANTS
ANSWERED?

Bob says WELL, I THINK FIRST OF
ALL, THE REAL -- THE FIRST
QUESTION IS ARE WE ARE GOING
TO EXPAND THE SYSTEM OR NOT?
RIGHT NOW WE HAVE OVER 40 PERCENT OF
OUR KIDS WHO ARE ELIGIBLE
WHO ARE GOING AND ADULTS
WHO ARE COMING IN BACK TO
UNIVERSITY BACK TO COLLEGE
AND I THINK THE QUESTION
THAT WE HAVE TO FACE UP TO
IS MOST OTHER JURISDICTIONS
THAT WE ARE COMPARE
OURSELVES TO IN THE WORLD
ARE LOOKING AT RATES OF 50,
60, 70 PERCENT AS WE GO INTO TEN
YEARS, 10-15 YEARS THE OUT
THIS REALLY THIS IS A PROJECT FOR A
GENERATION THAT WE HAVE TO
RENEW WE HAVE BEEN LIVING
OFF THE PAST FOR MAYBE TOO
LONG.
WE HAVE TO RENEW IN THE
FUTURE.
AND I THINK THE QUESTION OF
ACCESS GOING TO BE FIRST
QUESTION.
I THINK THE MINISTER SAID IT AND JUST SPOKE FOR ALL
ONTARIANS I HAVE NOT HEARD
ANYBODY SUGGEST THAT WE
DON'T WANT TO BUILD SYSTEM
WHERE EVERYBODY IS
QUALIFIED TO GO SHOULD BE
ABLE TO GO.
AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE ABLE TO EXPAND
OUR SENSE OF OPPORTUNITY
THERE IS TOO MANY YOUNG
PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING
TURNED OFF IN GRADE 6 AND
GRADE 8 AND GREAT 9 AND 10
WHO DON'T SEE THEMSELVES
AS CANDIDATES
FOR COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY.

Steve says OR I READ A REPORT WHO GO IN AND
DROP OUT IN.

Bob says YES OR DON'T FINISH THERE
WHOLE SERIES OF ISSUES.
AND YOU KNOW THERE IS WHOLE
RANGE QUESTIONS.
IT IS NOT ONLY ABOUT MONEY.
LOT OF IT IS ABOUT OUR ATTITUDE
TO WHAT EXTENT DO WE CELEBRATE
OUR HIGHER EDUCATION?
DO WE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND
UNDERSTAND IT?
I MEAN, AND I WOULD SAY I
DON'T THINK ANY GOVERNMENT
IN RECENT YEARS HAS PAID
ENOUGH ATTENTION TO THE
IMPORTANCE OF HIGHER EDUCATION.
THEY ALL SEEM TO THINK THEY
SYSTEM’S OKAY IT WILL
TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.
AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT WE NEED REALLY NOW
REFOCUS OUR ENERGY ON
BECAUSE WE HAVE LOST OUT.
EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT DAVIS
YEARS THEY WERE CRITICAL IT
WAS THE TIME OF THE BABY BOOM.
BIG EXPANSION; ONTARIO WAS
DOING TO AND WHAT LOT OF
OTHER PLACE WERE DOING WHICH WAS EXPANDING OPPORTUNITY.
ALSO IMPORTANT TO MENTION
AND TO SAY THAT THAT
EXPANSION WAS DONE BEFORE WE
HAD UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE.
ONE OF THINGS THAT WE HAVE
TO RECOGNIZE TODAY IN 21
CENTURY IS THAT AMOUNT MONEY
WE ARE SPENDING PUBLICLY ON HEALTH
CARE DOLLARS, IS VASTLY MORE
THAN IT WAS EVEN TEN YEARS
AGO.
AND CERTAINLY FAR MORE THAN
IT WAS 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO.
AND WE HAVE TO REALLY DECIDE
AS A COUNTRY, TO WHAT EXTENT ARE WE PREPARED TO
INVEST IN EDUCATION SEE IT AS A
CRITICAL INVESTMENT AND SEE
EDUCATION AS MUCH BEDROCK
VALUE AND AS ESSENTIAL TO
WHO AND WHAT WE ARE AS
SOCIETY AS HEALTH CARE IS.

Steve says JANET LET ME TAKE LOOK
AT THE OTHER SIDE OF
EQUATION WITH YOU.
YOU ARE THE ONE AROUND THIS TABLE MOST RECENTLY IN GOVERNMENT AND
YOUR LAST BUDGET
WHEN WERE YOU MINISTER OF FIANCES A COUPLE YEARS AGO YOU
TRANSFERRED 3.5 BILLION DOLLARS TO COLLEGES
AND UNIVERSITIES TEACH AND TRAIN
THEIR STUDENT AND YOU PUT
TUITION AND FUND RAISING AND
MONEY FROM THE FEDS IN THERE
AS WELL IT IS ANOTHER 5.5
BILLION THAT'S TRANSFERRED.
HOW DO WE KNOW WHETHER THAT
MONEY IS BEING WEALTH SPENT?

Janet says WELL, I THINK THAT'S A VERY
VALID QUESTION AND WE HAD
STARTED TO NOT ONLY MAKE
SOME INVESTMENTS IN THE
INFRASTRUCTURE TO EXPAND AND
I THINK YOU KNOW I AM BOB
MAKES GOOD POINT THAT YOU
KNOW EVERY GOVERNMENT
PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE DONE
MORE FOR POST
SECONDARY WHEN WE LOOKED AT
WHERE WE ARE NOW BUT I THINK ONE
OF THE SIGNIFICANCE
CHALLENGES THAT WE WERE ABLE
TO MEET WAS THE SO-CALLED
DOUBLE COHORT.
WHERE WE ACTUALLY DID GET A
SPOT FOR PRETTY WELL FOR YOU
KNOW FOR QUALIFIED STUDENT
IT WAS A GREAT
PARTNERSHIP WITH POST
SECONDARY AND PRIVATE SECTOR,
ET CETERA.
BUT THAT BEING SAID I THINK
THE QUESTION OF HOW DO WE
MEASURE QUALITY IS VERY,
VERY IMPORTANT.
WE PUT IN SOME MEASURES FOR
IF YOU YOU WILL OUTCOME FOR
EMPLOYMENT RATES BUT THINK
SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT
ARE ASKED IN THIS REPORT
ABOUT IS THAT REALLY
MEASUREMENT OF QUALITY, IS
VALID QUESTION AND I THINK
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT.
BECAUSE IT IS NOT JUST HOW
MUCH YOU ARE SPENDING.
IT IS WHAT YOU ARE YOU
SPENDING ON.

Steve says WE GOT TO GO
DEEPER THEN JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE PASSING AND FAILING AND
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

Janet says WELL WE LOOKED AT EMPLOYMENT
RATES WE THOUGHT THAT WAS
ONE IMPORTANT BENCH MARK AS
YOU HOW DO YOUR GRADUATES
SUCCEED WHEN THEY LEAVE.
AND I THINK THAT IS
IMPORTANT BENCHMARK WE
SHOULD KEEP.
BUT THERE MIGHT WELL BE SOME
OTHER BENCH MARKS THAT WE
SHOULD PUT IN PLACE.

Steve says SEAN THE KEY QUESTION PARENTS AND STUDENTS ALIKE ARE
ASKING RIGHT
NOWADAYS IS HOW MUCH HIGHER
CAN TUITION GO?
IS IT INEVITABLE THAT
TUITION COSTS WILL GO UP?

Sean says WELL I THINK THERE IS NO
QUESTION THAT THE TUITION
PRESSURES ARE GOING TO
CONTINUE.
AND I WAS INTERESTED IN
BOB'S PAPER BECAUSE THERE
WAS A SURPRISING STATISTICS
FOR ME IN THAT THE LAST 8-10
YEARS TUITION IN ONTARIO
MORE THAN DOUBLED BUT IN
FACT DEFAULT RATE IF I
REMEMBER THE PAPER CORRECTLY,
HAS IN FACT DECLINED.
SO, CLEARLY THERE IS SOME
EVIDENCE THAT THIS NEW
GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE
IS TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ARE
TALKING LARGELY ABOUT YOUNG
PEOPLE SEEMS TO BE
POSITIONING ITSELF TO PAY
THE BILLS.
BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER
IT HAS BECOME VERY COSTLY.
I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY TOUGH
THINGS POLITICALLY IS THAT
YOU ARE MY AGE YOU KNOW WE
GOT THE EDUCATION IF NOT
FREE, VERY NEARLY FREE.
AND WE NOW ARE LECTURING
OUR KIDS THAT NEXT
GENERATION THAT THEY SHOULD
REALLY BE PREPARED TO PAY
WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR.
AND IT IS AN INTERESTING
ARGUMENT.

Bob says THIS IS NOT A -- THIS IS
NOT UNIQUE TO ONTARIO.
ONE THINGS WE ARE TYING TO
IN THIS REPORT GET EVERYBODY
TO WAKE UP THE FACT THAT YOU
UNITED KINGDOM AND US
AUSTRALIA EVERY ADVANCED INDUSTRIAL COUNTRY THEY
ARE HAVING THIS DEBATE.
AND THE REALITY IS THAT WHEN
SEAN IS A LITTLE YOUNGER THAN I- BUT WHEN
I WENT TO UNIVERSITY, LESS
THAN 1 IN TEN WENT TO
UNIVERSITY AND NOW LESS THEN ONE AND TEN WENT TO UNIVERSITY.
SO WE DIDN'T HAVE COMMUNITY COLLEGE SO
NOW THE FIGURE IS GOING
MUCH, MUCH HIGHER SO YOU
THEN HAVE TO SAY, OKAY.
YOU KNOW WHAT WE CAN AFFORD
TO DO FOR EIGHT OR TEN OR
12 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION WE CLEARLY BEFORE HEALTH
CARE, IT IS -- EQUATION IS
JUST DIFFERENT.
THE MATH IS DIFFERENT THE ARITHMETIC IS DIFFERENT
SO THE QUESTION IS,
HOW DO YOU CREATE A SYSTEM OF
FINANCING THAT GUARANTEES
EVERY STUDENT A PLACE
THAT TAKES AWAY THE IMPACT
OF YOU KNOW HIGH UPFRONT
COSTS THAT THEY CAN'T AFFORD
TO.
AND PUT US IN -- HOW CAN WE
DO IT?

Steve says I AM SURE YOU GUYS TALKED
ABOUT THIS.
WHY DON’T YOU BREAK SOME CABINET SOLADARIT I’M SURE YOU GUYS TALK
ABOUT THIS IMPROVING GRANTS OR
WHATEVER.

The caption changes to " Dave Cooke: Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Dave says TALKING TUITIONS IS ALWAYS
TOUGH AND THIS GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO
FACE TO SOME DEGREE THE SAME
PRESSURES THAT WE FACED.
THAT I MEAN NO ONE WANTS TO
RAISE TUITIONS.
BUT THE REALITY IS HOW DO
YOU GET MORE MONEY IN THE
SYSTEM WHEN YOU HAVE GOT
DEFICIT AND YOU’VE GOT THOSE KINDS OF
PRESSURES THERE’S ALSO A POINT IN THE
PAPER WHERE I THINK THE DO HAVE TO
COME TO GRIPS WITH.
THERE HAS BEEN ADVANCES MADE
ON ACCESSIBILITY FOR CERTAIN
GROUPS OF PEOPLE WITHIN OUR
SOCIETY.
WOMEN, AND RACIAL MINORITY
AND THERE HAS BEEN
TREMENDOUS ADVANCES MADE.
BUT I STILL HAVE A BIG
QUESTION ABOUT WHAT'S
HAPPENING TO LOW INCOME
KIDS.
AND WHETHER THERE IS SAME
KIND OF ACCESSIBILITY I
DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS.
BUT I ALSO COMBINE THAT WITH
A ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT IF WE
TALK IN THIS RESPONSE PAPER
DOES NOT DO THIS BUT IF WE
ALL TALK ONLY IN TERMS OF
FUNDING AND TUITIONS, WE ARE
GOING TO MISS SOME OF THE
OTHER STRUCTURE PROBLEMS
THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED IN
THIS SYSTEM.

Steve says LIKE WHAT.

Dave says CREDIT TRANSFERS BETWEEN
COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITY PRIOR
LEARNING ASSESSMENT.
WE DON'T EVEN HAVE
UNIVERSITIES IN THIS
PROVINCE THAT NECESSARILY RECOGNIZE CREDITS
BETWEEN UNIVERSITIES.
EACH OF OUR UNIVERSITIES
CONTINUE TO BE INDIVIDUAL
INSTITUTIONS AND ANY TIME
GOVERNMENT WANTS TO TRY TO
DO ANYTHING WITH THEM THEY
THROW UP THE FLAGS WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT INSTITUTION SO
LEAVE US ALONE JUST GIVE US A LOT OF MONEY.
I THINK IT IS TIME
THAT WE SAY TO THEM THAT THERE IS MORE
TO IT THAN THAT WE HAVE
GOT TO DEVELOP A SYSTEM.

Steve says SHOULD A STUDENT BE
ABLE TO SAY TWO OR THREE YEARS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO TAKE
THOSE CREDITS TRANSFER TO SHERIDAN OR
OTTAWA AND HAVE THOSE
CREDITS COUNT AND CONTINUE
TOWARDS DEGREE?
WELL ONE OF THE THINGS WE KNOW AND
WE ARE LOOKING AT WE ARE
ASKING FOR
RESPONSE ON IS TRYING TO
CREATE MUCH CLEARER PATHWAYS
AND IT IS AGAIN, WE DON'T
HAVE TO GO FAR AWAY.
BRITISH COLUMBIA DOES A MUCH
JURER. WE TRY TO LOOK
AT ONE OF THE BEST PRACTICE ON WHAT TO DO THESE DAYS AND BC
HAS GOT TERRIFIC SYSTEM OF
ASSESSMENT.
AND OF LOOKING HARD AT
PROGRAMS AND SAYING, YOU
KNOW YOUR PART OF THE
SYSTEM THIS IS
ASSESSMENT THAT APPLIES.
I THINK YOU KNOW – I THINK WE
ARE GOING TO BE ENGAGED IN NOT
ONLY A QUESTION OF YOU KNOW
IDEAS BUT ALSO QUESTION OF
MEDIATING MEDIATING
SOME SOLUTIONS BETWEEN
INSTITUTIONS AND GOVERNMENT
TRYING TO MEDIATE SOME SOLUTION
BETWEEN ALL OF THE GROUPS
AND STAKE HOLDERS THAT'S REALLY HOW
I SEE THIS DISCUSSION PERIOD
OVER NEXT FEW MONTHS.
WE HAVE GOT TO TRY TO GET
SOME FAIR AND REASONABLE
BALANCE.
THE CLAIM FOR AUTONOMY IS
AN IMPORTANT CLAIM BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO
HAVE THIS IS NOT ONE SIZE FITS
ALL SYSTEM.
YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT
INSTITUTIONS ARE DIFFERENT.
THEY HAVE DIFFERENT
HISTORIES AND THEY ALSO
HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS.
AND YOU HAVE GOT ALLOW THEM
TO BE THEIR BEST AND YOU
CAN'T ALOW THEM TO DO IF YOU
HAVE ONE PERSON AT QUEEN'S
PARK WHO TELLING EVERYBODY
WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO ALL THE TIME IT, DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY. ON THE
OTHER HAND YOU DO
HAVE TO -- THE INSTITUTIONS
HAVE TO BE THINKING ABOUT
THE STUDENTS AND WE HAVE TO
PUT THE INTEREST OF THE
STUDENTS ON A PAR WITH
EVERYTHING ELSE SAY, THE
STUDENTS WANT TO CLEAR
PATHWAY.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE ABLE TO
TELL A KID IN GRADE NINE THIS
IS WHAT IT IS GOING TO LOOK
LIKE THIS IS WHAT THE SYSTEM YOU ARE
ABOUT TO ENTER IS LOOKING
LIKE THIS HOW YOU CAN MAKE
YOUR PROGRESS IN IT.
AND IT IS GOT TO BE LESS
FRUSTRATING AND MUCH MORE
CONDUCIVE TO HELPING
STUDENTS GET AHEAD, WHICH IS
WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING.

Sean says JUST QUICK WORD ON
TUITION TOO THAT AND
ANTICIPATES OR BUILDS THAT BOB WAS HINTING AT.
IF I AM A STUDENT TODAY IN
ONTARIO WEALTH REPORT DEALS
WITH THIS, OR THE DISCUSSION
PAPER.
IF I AM UNDERGRADUATE
STUDENT TODAY I AM AT THE
UNIVERSITY LEVEL I AM PAYING
TUITION VERY NEARLY PROBABLY
LITTLE MORE THAN $5,000.
AND THAT'S MEAN CONSTANT
DOLLARS THAT'S SUBSTANTIALLY
MORE MONEY THAN YOU MIGHT
HAVE PAID TEN OR 15 YEARS
AGO. AND I THINK ONE THINGS ABOUT RISING
TUITION PRICES, IS THAT THEY
REALLY GOING TO DRIVE DEBATE
ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY NOT THE
LEAST OF WHICH
ACCOUNTABILITY WHAT KIND OF
INSTRUCTION AM I GETTING?
PARTICULARLY AT THE
UNDERGRADUATE LEVEL YOU
KNOW IF I THINK PROFESSORS
UNIVERSITY ADMINISTRATORS
AND BOARD MEMBERS HAD BETTER
UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THESE
TUITIONS START TO GET ABOVE
5,000 BUCKS, DON'T BE SURPRISED
IF MORE AND MORE YOUNG
PEOPLE PARTICULARLY START TO
ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT WELL,
WHAT ABOUT INSTRUCTION?
WHAT ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT I
AM NOW PAYING YOU KNOW
PRETTY GOOD BUCK FOR?
I THINK THOSE ARE DEBATES
THAT WE NEED TO HAVE AT THE
INSTITUTIONAL LEVEL I MIGHT ADD.

Janet says I GUESS I MEAN YOUR
REPORT RAISES THE
INTERESTING ISSUE ABOUT WHAT
ALTERNATIVE WAYS YOU WANT TO
FUND INSTITUTIONS.
BECAUSE, I GUESS THE
QUESTION IS HOW REALISTIC IS
IT THAT WE CAN EXPECT
ONTARIO OR SO. PROVINCES TO
INCREASE THE INVESTMENT IN
POST SECONDARY WHEN
EVERYBODY SCRAMBLING LIKE
CRAZY TO MEET THE NEEDS AND
HEALTH CARE.
I MEAN IS THERE ANY HOPE OR DO YOU
THINK OR HAVE
YOU HEARD FROM SOME OF THE
GROUPS ABOUT SOME INNOVATIVE
WAYS WE CAN OPEN UP
FURTHER FUNDING FOR POST
SECONDARY INSTITUTIONS.

Bob says WELL I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO BE
CHOICES FOR THIS GOVERNMENT
AS THERE ARE FOR ANY
GOVERNMENT.
I MEAN I DON'T BELIEVE THAT
YOU CAN MAKE PROGRESS
WITHOUT PUTTING MORE DOLLARS
INTO THE SYSTEM.
I ALSO DON'T THINK YOU CAN
EXPECT THE STUDENTS TO PAY
THE FULL FREIGHT OF WHAT
IMPROVEMENT THAT WE KNOW WE
NEED TO MAKE.
I THINK WE -- LEVEL OF
PUBLIC INVESTMENT IN A
VARIETY OF WAYS TAKE SOMETHING
AS SIMPLE AS FOR EXAMPLE AS -- HOW MANY
GRADUATE PLACES DO WE HAVE.
WE ARE FOCUSING A LOT OF OUR ATTENTION AND THE DISCUSSION ON
UNDERGRADUATE.
BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IF WE ARE
GOING TO TRAIN FOR THE
FUTURE WE HAVE TO HAVE MORE
PLACES ANOTHER MAS AND PHDS
WE HAVE TO MORE PLACES FOR
THEM.
WE CAN'T SEND EVERYBODY AWAY SOMEWHERE ELSE.
WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY- NOT JUST SEE ONTARIO AS
TRAINING ONLY FOR ITSELF BUT
EVEN SAYING WE HAVE SHOULD
BE TRAINING FOR THE WORLD.
WELL, YOU CAN'T DO THAT
WITHOUT SPENDING MORE MONEY.
SO THAT'S GOING TO COST SOME
THING MORE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN YOU
LOOK AT WHAT THE UK HAS DONE
RECENTLY WITH THE REFORMS THAT NEARLY
COST PRIME MINISTER BLAIR
HIS MAJORITY, AND YOU LOOK
AT WHAT AUSTRALIANS HAVE
DONE WHAT THE NEW ZEALANDERS HAVE DONE.
I MEAN THE COMMONWEALTH
COUNTRY NOT AMERICAN
SOLUTIONS WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
OTHER COMMONWEALTH COUNTRIES
THAT COME FROM VERY SIMILAR
POLITICAL TRADITIONS LIKE OURS.
THEY’VE SAID LET'S TRY AND DEAL WITH UPFRONT COST
LETS SEE WHAT WE CAN DO IN TERMS
OF PAYBACK OVER PERIOD OF
TIME.
AND MAKE THAT PAYBACK MUCH
MORE CLOSELY RELATED TO HOW
MUCH MONEY YOU REALLY HAVE.

Steve says MIKE LET ME JUMP IN HERE. BECAUSE I’M LITERALLY DOWN TO
MY LAST 20 SECONDS.
YOU’RE A PARTNER AT GOODMAN'S LAW
FIRM?

Bob says YES.

Steve says YOU ARE CHANCELLOR AT WILLIARD UNIVERSITY?

Bob says YES.

Steve says ARE YOU THE CHAIRMAN OF
ROYAL CONSERVATIVE MUSIC?

YES.

Steve says ARE YOU ON THE FORM
FEDERATION TRYING TO HELP
OTHER COUNTRIES CREATE
DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS?

Bob says YES THAT'S ME.

Steve says YOU HAVE GOT BUSY PLATE
ALREADY WHY DID YOU TAKE
THIS ON?

Bob says BECAUSE I BELIEVE VERY VERY
STRONGLY IN THIS CAUSE AND
IN THIS TASK.
I MEAN I THINK THE FUTURE OF THIS
PROVINCE IS REALLY VERY MUCH
TIED TO WHAT WE DO WITH OUR
UNIVERSITIES AND OUR
COLLEGES.
I THINK IT IS ALL ABOUT
OPPORTUNITIES.
AND IT IS ALL ABOUT
EXCELLENCE.
AND YOU KNOW WHEN THE
PREMIER ASKED YOU TO SERVE
AND GIVES YOU SUCH AN
EXCITING AND CHALLENGING JOB
YOU TAKE IT ON.

Steve says PLEASE COME BACK
WHEN YOUR REPORT IS DONE.

Bob says ANY TIME.

Steve says BOB RAE, FORMER PREMIER OF ONTARIO. AND MY THANKS TO YOU
THREE AS WELL.
THERE IS MORE TO COME.
THE LIBERALS MAYBE ASKING FORMER
PREMIER RAE TO MOVE WITH
HASTE ON POST SECONDARY FILE. BUT ACCORDING TO MANY OBSERVORS
PREMIER'S DALTON MCGUINTY
GOVERNMENT DOES NOT
FEEL SIMILARLY BURDENED.
DECISIONS THESE CRITICS SAY TAKE WAY TOO LONG AND THE PACE SLOW,
SLOW, SLOW.
MORE ON THIS WITH CBC RADIO
ROBERT FISHER AND CBO QUEENS PARK SUSANNA
KELLEY IN THIS EDITION OF
BACK ROOM 41.? 411.
A fast clip shows "Backroom 411" in block white letters with a
school in the background. Then several politicians being
interviewed, or speaking in front of a crowd. Then lastly the
captions "Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher" appear under each
person. Then a close-up of legislature.

Robert appears he is in his forties and has brown hair that is
parted on the side. He wears a black suit, white shirt and a blue-
stripped shirt.

Susanna appears in the studio. She is in her forties and has short
blonde hair with fringe and stud earrings. She wears a pink jacket
with a broach.

Steve says ROBERT AND SUSANNA
WELCOME BACK FOR OUR FIRST
EFFORT.
THIS IS OUR ELEVENTH SEASON OF STUDIO 2 AND 14TH SEASON OF FOURTH
READING LET US START WITH THE
PACE AT WHICH DECISIONS ARE
MADE AT QUEEN'S PARK.
WHICH I AM TOLD IS NOT LIKE
THE INDY 500. SUSANNA YOU WANT TO FILL US IN.

The caption reads "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

Susanna says WELL POSITIVELY GLACIAL IS
MORE WHAT THEY COULD BE
CALLED.
YOU KNOW THOSE OF US WHO
COVERED WHEN MIKE HARRIS
CAME INTO POWER, WE REMEMBER
IT BEING LIKE A HURRICANE
THAT FIRST TWO YEARS.
THINGS WERE COMING FLYING.
EVERYTHING WAS CHANGING IN THE PROVINCE.
BUT, THIS WITH THIS
GOVERNMENT, IT IS VERY VERY
DIFFERENT.
ALL WE KEEP HEARING IS WE ARE
CONSULTING.
WE ARE AT THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY
OF THEM COMING INTO POWER
AND THEY ARE STILL
CONSULTING FEW CHANGES IN
EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE.
BUT, YOU KNOW SOME PEOPLE
THINK THEY RUN THE RISK OF
CONSULTING INTO PARALYSIS
LIKE HAPPENED WITH BOB RAE'S
GOVERNMENT.
HOWEVER I DO HEAR THERE MAYBE METHOD
IN MADNESS THERE COULD BE A
STRATEGY HERE O I AM TOLD,
AND IT IS THERE IS SOME THOUGHT
THAT THEY SHOULD HOLD BACK
AS MUCH AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN
OVER THE FIRST TWO TO THREE
YEARS POUR EVERYTHING THEY
HAVE GOT INTO THE LAST YEAR
BEFORE AN ELECTION.
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
STRATEGY FROM THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT.

Robert says SHOCKING.
JUST ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING TO HEAR THAT.
THOSE OF US WHO ARE OLD TIMERS
REMEMBER THE PETERSON ERA.

Susanna says SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs
Specialist.

Robert says WHEN IT WAS VERY BUSY THERE
COULD YOU HARDLY KEEP UP
WITH PACE OF WHAT'S
HAPPENING AND THAT WAS
BROUGHT BY THE COURT INTERESTING
THOUGH YOU KNOW THE PREMIERS
LAMENTING THIS WEEK AS HE LOOKED
FORWARD TO HIS ANNIVERSARY
TO NUMBER OF REPORTERS INCLUDING MY COLLEAGE JOHN MCGRASSEN
HE FRUSTRATED WITH THE
SLOWNESS OF THINGS YOU KNOW
HAS GOT GREAT IDEA AND 100
PEOPLE TELLING HIM CAN'T DO
IT.
MAYBE THAT'S WHY THEY ARE
DOING IT.
I LIKE THE THEORY THAT SUE
HAS
THEY ARE GOING TO HOLD THIS STUFF
OFF CLOSER TO THAT CONSULTATION TO THE PUBLIC.

Robert says I THOUGHT THE WHOLE IDEA THOUGH ROBERT
WAS TO GET THE TOUGH STUFF OUT OF
THE WAY IN FIRST YEAR SO
THAT YOU HAVE GOT TIME
TO REBUILD.

Robert says THAT WAS THE RALPH KLEIN
STRATEGY AND IT WORKED AND
CERTAINLY MIKE HARRIS DID
THAT.
HE HAD LISTENED TO RALPH KLEIN AND I THINK IT IS GENERALLY
CONSIDERED FOR GOVERNMENTS
EVERYWHERE – IN THIS COUNTRY
THAT THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO
DO IT.
BUT YOU KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN
IN AND OUT OF THE DITCH.
THINK PRIMARILY BECAUSE THEY
HAVEN’T HAD THE ROAD MAP THAT
MIKE HARRIS HAD.
EVERYBODY LAUGHED AT THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION CALLED IT A COMIC BOOK. REMEMBER THE
LIBERALS LAUGHED AT IT
BUT BY GOLLY THAT KEPT HIM
RIGHT ON THE ROAD AND OUT OF
THE DITCH AND HE KNEW
EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS GOING TO
DO AND DID HE IT.

Steve says TRUE ENOUGH.
NOW THE GOVERNMENT NOT ONLY COMING UNDER CRITICISM FOR THE SLOW PACE
AT WHICH DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE ALSO FOR THE SECRECY FOR
WHICH THEY ARE DEBATING AND
ULTIMATELY IMPLEMENTING
DECISIONS.
GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES.

Susanna says RIGHT, WELL YOU KNOW ALL GOVERNMENTS
ARE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT
SECRETIVE AND YOU KNOW YOU
CAN'T ALWAYS DEVELOP POLICY
IN PUBLIC.
IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE.
BUT USUALLY, THEY DON'T GET
TOO SECRETIVE UNTIL FURTHER
ON IN THEIR TERM AND THEY
REALLY START FOLLOWING IN
POLLS NOW, THE PREMIER HAS
BEEN FALLING IN THE POLLS
AND THAT MAY BE THE REASON
ONE IS OMA AGREEMENT- IN WITH
THE DOCTORS.

Steve says WITH THE DOCTORS.

Susanna says AND NOW, YOU HAVE TO THINK
OF THIS WAY THE OMA
NEGOTIATS ON BEHALF OF THE
DOCTORS. THE GOVERNMENT
NEGOTIATES ON BEHALF OF THE
TAX PAYER FOOTING THE
BILL FOR THE AGREEMENT.
THEY HAVE COME TO A TENTATIVE
AGREEMENT THEY HAVE SENT OUT
COPIES OF THE AGREEMENT TO
ALL OF DOCTORS IN THE
PROVINCE.
WHEN WE ASK FOR COPIES OF
THE AGREEMENT SO WE CAN
INFORM TAX PAYERS HOW MUCH
MONEY THEY ARE GOING TO BE ON THE HOOK FOR
WE ARE TOLD, SORRY, CAN'T DO
UNTIL THE DOCTORS HAVE
RATIFIED IT.
WHAT THAT MEANS IS, THINK
ABOUT IT, THAT'S DEAL WILL
BE SIGNED SEALED AND LEGALLY
BINDING BY TIME TAX PAYERS
ARE EVEN TOLD WHAT IS
IN IT.
NOW, QUEEN PARK SOURCES ARE
ADAMANT THIS IS GOING TO BE
A GOOD DEAL FOR TAX PAYERS
BUT SOME PEOPLE WOULD LIKE
TO KNOW FOR INSTANCE, IS IT
GOING ARE DOCTORS GOING COME
UNDER 2 PERCENT.
THAT DALTON MCGUINTY SAID
ALL PUBLIC SERVANTS THAT HE
WANTS EVERYBODY TO SETTLE FOR.
PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
AND SO IT IS INTERESTING WE
CAN'T FIND OUT.

Robert says AS YOU KNOW GOVERNMENT IN
PAST IN ONTARIO HAVE WRESTLED WITH
DOCTORS TO THE CEILING WHEN IT COMES
TO DEALING WITH
NEGOTIATIONS.
AND WHILE THAT’S AN ISSUE THERE IS ALSO THE
HOSPITAL ISSUE AS WELL.
THAT YOU KNOW GEORGE
SMITHERMAN PARTICULARY AND THE PREMIER AS
WELL THEY ARE TRYING TAKE ON
OHA YOU HAVE HEARD FROM
OPPOSITION MEMBERS NOW FORMER
GOVERNMENT PEOPLE SAYING WHY
KNOW YOU TRYING BITE OFF
SOMETHING YOU CANNOT CHEW.
BE CAREFUL YOU’RE GOING TO BE BATTERED AND BRUISED BY THIS.
IF THEY WRESTLE THE DOCTORS TO THE CEILING
GIVE THEM
WHAT THEY WANT AND THEN
HOSPITALS ARE STILL CRYING
WHAT ABOUT NURSE AND WHAT ABOUT THE
FRONTLINE PEOPLE IN HOSPITAL
HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
I MEAN THERE IS – THIS IS A HECK
OF A BIG CHALLENGE FOR THIS
GOVERNMENT.

Susanna says THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN
STRATEGY.
WITH THE HOSPITALS I MEAN IT
IS OPEN WAREFARE MINISTER
MINISTER SMITH WHO IS IN THE PAPERS EVERY
DAY.
TAKING ON THE HOSPITALS.

Robert says BUT ASK MURRAY ELSTON FOR
EXAMPLE LOOKING TO THE PAST IF
YOU CAN FIGHT THE HOSPITAL
AND WIN THERE HAS BEEN HALLWAYS
OF QUEEN PARKS LITTERED
WITH HEALTH MINISTERS WHO
HAVE FALLEN ON THEIR SWORD TRYING TO DEAL
WITH IT-

Susanna says THERE IS
LOT OF TALK ABOUT HIM IN
BACK ROOMS BEING VERY, VERY
ROUGH WITH STAKE HOLDERS.
AND YOU KNOW IF YOU KNOW IF
THAT'S ROUGH WITH HOSPITAL
IN PUBLIC YOU CAN KIND OF IMAGINE
WHAT'S GOING ON BEHIND THE
SCENES.

Robert says LOOK HOW TOUGH HE WAS ON
THE SUSHI FOR EXAMPLE.

Steve says YES HE HAS BEEN TOUGH ON SUSHI.

Robert says NO FROZEN SUSHI FOR GEORGE-

Steve says OKAY TALK TO ME ABOUT
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SECRECY?
FOR EXAMPLE.
SEATON, EAST OF TORONTO.

Susanna says YES THE SEATON LANDFILL.HERE ANOTHER LAND SWAP THAT
WAS WHERE DEVELOPERS WHO OWNED
LAND UP IN OAKRIDGES MARINE
WERE SWAPPING IT IN NEGOTIATION
WITH THE PROVENTIAL
GOVERNMENT FOR GOVERNMENT
OWNED LAND IN SEATON OR
PICKERING WELL, THEY HAVE
BEEN VERY QUICK TO PUT OUT
ALL OF THE ENVIRONMENTALLY
POSITIVE ASPECT OF THE DEAL
THAT HAS BEEN ALMOST
COMPLETED BUT GUESS WHAT?
WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KNOW
HOW MUCH IT IS COSTING TAX
PAYER BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO
RELEASE THE LAND VALUATION
UNTIL THEY ARE SAYING MAYBE WELL
MAYBE NEXT SPRING OR MAYBE
BEYOND THAT'S FUNNY THAT’S WHAT MINISTER
GARRETTSON SAID THIS TIME
LAST YEAR THAT IT WOULD BE OUT
LAST SPRING.
HOW ABOUT PREMIER -- THAT'S
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SECREY HOW ABOUT
TRYING FIND OUT WHAT THE PREMIER OF ONTARIO
DOES ON A DAILY BASIS?

Robert says WHY OPPOSITION YOU BAR
STUDIO DOORS TO KEEP HIM OUT
NOW IT IS YOU KNOW WHERE THE
HECK IS HE?
WHAT IS HE DOING?
IT IS VERY GENERAL KIND OF
STUFF APPOINTMENT AND THIS
AND THAT AND EVERYTHING ELSE THE
DETAIL THAT USED TO BE
THERE IN THEIR SCHEDULE JUST HAS
KIND OF DISAPPEARED INTO THE EITHER.
AGAIN I THINK IT MAY BE PART OF THE STRATEGY
I DON'T KNOW SUSAN WHAT DO YOU
THINK?

Susanna says WELL I’M NOT SURE. I
I THINK THAT FOR INSTANCE
YOU KNOW THEY ARE PUTTING
ON STUFF LATE IN THE AFTERNOON FOR THE NEXT DAY.
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
OTHER PEOPLE ARE BEING TOLD
WHAT'S GOING ON.
BECAUSE, GP MURRAY’S
NEWSLETTER FOR INSTANCE ON
SEPTEMBER THE 15TH ANNOUNCED
THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A
CAUCUS MEETING IN GUELPH
LAST MONDAY.
WE GOT TOLD THAT 5:30 ON
FRIDAY NIGHT.

Steve says OKAY WITH ABOUT MINUTE HERE LET’S TALK ABOUT
CHANGES IN PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES THEY HAVE GOT
NEW LEADER IN JOHN TORY
EARLY MUSINGS ABOUT HOW WELL
IS DOING SO FAR?

Robert says YEA I THINK THAT WHILE THE LIBERALS
WOULD TELL YOU TALK ABOUT
SECRETS IT IS NO SECRET
THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE
PUBLIC MUSINGS ARE DON'T
WORRY ABOUT JOHN TORY WE ARE JUST GOING TO BE FINE.
THE PROBLEM IS FOR THE LIBERALS
THEY HAVE GOT BLUE LIGHT
LEADER IN DALTON MCGUINTY
CONTINUES TO PROVE THAT HAS OVER THE FIRST YEAR.
AND ALSO JOHN TORY.
I THINK ITS GOING TO BE A VERY
INTERESTING CLASH HERE.
TWO YOUNG BLUE LIGHT TYPE
TORRY LEADERS THIS PROBLEM
FOR THE LIBERALS AND
PRIVATELY THEY WILL
ACKNOWLEDGE IT PUBLICLY IT
IS ANOTHER ISSUE.

Susanna says WELL VERY INTERESTING
STUFF GOING ON BEHIND THE
SCENES THERE.
VERY STAFFING UP JOHN TORRY
STAFFING UP HIS OFFICE RIGHT
NOW VERY INTERESTING CHOICE
FOR PRINCIPAL SECRETARY
SECRETARY.
ANDREW HOPBLGSON WHO WAS RAN HIS
LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN NOW
HODGSON -- --

Steve says HE WAS
CABINET MINISTER FOR HARRIS --
Susanna says WAS A CABINET MINISTER, ABSOLUTELY.
AND ANDREW HODGSON IS
NOT SO MUCH AS BEING
POLITICAL STRATEGIST.
BUT, AS BEING A REAL GREAT
CAMPAIGNER AND CAMPAIGN
ORGANIZER.
SO, MY THOUGHT WHEN I HEARD
IT WAS, THIS IS A SIGNAL
THAT THEY ARE GETTING ON TO
ELECTION FOOTING VERY
QUICKLY HERE.
AND SPEAKING OF ELECTIONS
THERE IS THOUGHT THAT MAYBE
MR. FLAGHERTY MIGHT BE
MOVING ONTO THE FEDERAL
SCENE.
AND I HEARD THAT NOT OFFICIALY THAT THERE WERE PREVIOUSLY SOME
OVERTURES TO
JANET ECKER AND AJAX MAYOR STEVE PARISH.
THAT HE MIGHT RUN IN THAT
SEAT PROVENTIALLY IF
MR. FLAHERTY WAS GONE.

Steve says WE KNOW THE NEXT FEDERAL ELECTION WILL HAPPEN BEFORE THE
NEXT PROVINCIAL ELECTION SO THE FLAHERTY ROMOURS WILL
CONTINUE.

Susanna says RIGHT.

SUSANNA ROBERT THANKS FOR THE 411 FROM THE BACK ROOMS SEE YOU IN A
FEW
WEEKS.

Susanna says THANK YOU.

Steve says AND THAT'S "FOURTH READING."
FOR THIS WEEK I AM STEVE
PAIKIN UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue
the conversation.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Communications Authority.

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