Transcript: Royal Pain | Mar 07, 2004

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON "FOURTH
READING."
TAKING THE HEAT.

In a snippet of a conference, Greg Sorbara talks to the press.

He says IT WOULD BE FOOLISH OF ME
TO CONSIDER STEPPING DOWN.

Steve continues
CALLS FOR THE FINANCE
MINISTER TREE SIGN AS THE
DALTON MCGUINTY LIBERALS
FACE THEIR FIRST MAJOR
CRISIS.

Steve sits in the studio. He’s in his early forties. He has short curly dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a brown suit and a deep purple shirt.

Steve says
HI EVERYBODY I AM STEVE
PAIKIN AND THIS IS "FOURTH
READING" DALTON MCGUINTY
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT FACING
ITS FIRST FULL BLOWN
POLITICAL CRISIS.
THERE HAVE BEEN CALLS ALL
WEEK FOR FINANCE MINISTER TO
RESIGN OVER CONFLICT
INTEREST ALLEGATIONS BUT HE
INSISTS HAS DONE
NOTHING WRONG.

A caption on screen reads "Greg Sorbara. Ontario Finance Minister." He’s in his mid-forties, has short dark hair greying and is clean-shaven. He speaks to the press.

Greg says IN EVERY SINGLE STEP ON
THIS MATTER I HAVE DONE THE
RIGHT I THINK IT WOULD BE
FOOLISH OF ME TO CONSIDER
STEPPING DOWN.

The clip continues with Greg entering the Royal Plastics Corporate Park.

Steve continues
CALLS FOREST IT NATION OF
ONTARIO FINANCE MINISTER
CONTINUED THIS WEEK.
THIS AFTER REVELATIONS THAT
ROYAL GROUP TECHNOLOGY WHERE
HE ONCE SERVED ON THE BOARD
OF DIRECTORS AND CHAIRED THE
AUDIT COMMITTEE UNDER
INVESTIGATION BY THE ONTARIO
SECURITY COMMISSION AN
AGENCY ONCE OVERSEEN BY THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE.
DID HE NOT TELL PRETTY MERE
ABOUT THE POTENTIAL CONFLICT
OF INTEREST FOR 66 DAYS.
HE SAID THAT BECAUSE
SECURITIES COMMISSION HAD
NOT MADE THE INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC HE WAS BARRED FROM
TALKING ABOUT IT TO DALTON
MCGUINTY.

Greg says
AND MY RESPONSIBILITY AS
I UNDERSTAND SECURITY LAW
AND AS I STAND LAWS
RELATING TO FIDUCIARY
RESPONSIBILITY BOTH OF
MINISTERS AND DIRECTORS IS
TO ALLOW THAT INFORMATION TO
BE RELEASED PUBLICLY BEFORE
I MAKE ANY COMMENTS ON IT.

Steve continues
BUT SOME SECURITIES
LAWYERS HAVE PUBLICLY DIS
AGREED SAYING THERE NOTHING
IN LAW THAT WOULD HAVE
PREVENTED HIM FROM TELLING
THE PREMIER THAT THE COMPANY
WAS UNDER INVESTIGATION.

A slate on screen titled "OSC Investigation" shows a picture of Greg and reads "At Royal Group 1994-2003. Resigned day after election. October 23, 2003 became finance minister. Did not disclose any possible conflict or potential problems regarding Royal. December 22, 2003 Sorbara’s staff was alerted by OSC about investigation into Royal. February 25, 2004 Royal announced they were the subject of multiple investigations. Sorbara told this to McGuinty. February 27, 2004 Sorbara wrote to the Integrity Commissioner. Sorbara told he was right to stay quiet based on information at the time. Transferred responsibility for OSC to Chair of Management Board."

A man in his mid-forties appears on screen. He’s at a press conference. It’s Dalton McGuinty.

He says GREG SORBARA NOT THE
SUBJECT OF AN INVESTIGATION
TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE
HE IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF A CHARGE.
THE COMMISSIONER HAS SAID
THAT HE IS HAS ACTED
RESPONSIBLY IN THE
CIRCUMSTANCE MINISTER
SORBARA HAS SPECIFICALLY
SAID THAT SHOULD HE BECOME
THE SUBJECT OF AN
INVESTIGATION ALONG THREE
STEP ASIDE.
I THINK THAT IS FAIR.
AND REASONABLE.
AND IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE.

Steve continues CRITIC SAY DALTON
MCGUINTY IS SECOND THE WRONG
MESSAGE.

The caption changes to "John Baird. PC Finance Critic." He’s in his late thirties. He has short dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a dark suit and a white plaid shirt.

John says I CAN'T SINK OF A BIGGER
SCANDAL IN LAST 20 YEARS IN
ONTARIO WHERE SUCH A SENIOR
MINISTER HAS EXERCISED
SUCH BAD JUDGEMENT WHERE THE
PREMIER HAS LOWERED THE BAR
BY SEVERAL FLOORS.
AND IT IS -- IT IS
UNBELIEVABLE.

Steve says
BUT ANALYSTS SAY ASKING
GREG SORBARA TO STEP ASIDE
IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS IT
SEEMS.

The caption changes to "Nelson Wiseman. University of Toronto." He’s in his fifties. He’s mostly bald with short grey hair on the temples and clean-shaven. He wears a dark grey suit, white shirt and rounded glasses.

Nelson says
WHAT'S COMPLICATING ALL
OF THIS FOR THE GOVERNMENT
IS SORBARA IS DEEPLY
INVOLVED IN PRE BUDGET
CONSULTATIONS THEY HAVE GOT
BUDGET CRISIS THEY ARE
LEADING UP TO BUDGET WHICH
IS GOING COME DOWN IN COUPLE
OF MONTHS.
AND THIS IS JUST A GRENADE
THROWN INTO THE MIDDLE OF
ALL OF THIS.

Steve continues
BUT NDP SAYS THE LIBERALS
MAYBE SABOTAGING THEIR OWN
BUDGET.

The caption changes to "Michael Prue. NDP Finance Critic." He’s in his late forties. He has short grey hair and a moustache. He wears a blue suit and white shirt.

Michael says
I BELIEVE THAT THIS ISSUE
WILL DOG HIM AND WILL BECOME
VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT HAPPENED
TO THE TORIES.
THE TORIES MOVED THEIR
BUDGET TO THE MAGNA PLANT
AND THE ISSUE BECAME WHERE
IS THE BUDGET WAS PRESENTED.
WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS IT
MISTER SORBARA IS HOLDING
TIGHT AND THE PREMIER IS
HOLDING TIGHT AND THE ISSUE
WILL NOT BE WHAT IS IN THIS
BUDGET.
THE ISSUE WILL BE
MISTER SORBARA.

Steve continues
HE SAYS THIS LATEST SCANDAL
WILL NOT DERAIL HIS
GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA.

Dalton says I THINK WHAT MOST ON TAR
GOES REALLY WANT TO KNOW ARE
WE CONTINUING TO WORK TO PUT
OUT OUR FIRST BUDGET.
ARE WE HOLDING OUR TOWN HALL
AND MOVE IS FORWARD ON A
NUMBER OTHER FRONTS.
AND WE ARE.

Now Steve appears back in the studio.

He says THE PREMIER MAY
WANT TO KEEP MOVING FORWARD.
IS THAT POSSIBLE?
SORBARA SAYS HE DIDN'T KNOW
THERE WERE ANY PROBLEMS OF
CORPORATE GOVERNANCE WITH THE
ROYAL GROUP COMPANIES AND HE
SAYS HE DIDN'T THINK THERE
WAS ANYTHING IN COMPANY'S
HISTORY THAT WOULD EMBARRASS
THE GOVERNMENT.
SO, WHEN HE WENT THROUGH A
PROCEDURE THAT LIBERAL SET
UP BEFORE APPOINTING ANY
CABINET MINISTERS SORBARA
DID NOT MENTION THE COMPANY.
THE CHIEF HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING AND
SHE IS HERE TO SHARE WHAT
SHE HAS LEARNED.
OKAY.
LET'S JUST YOU GO G THROUGH
THIS.
WE HAVE SEEN IN BACKGROUND
PIECE, THE ALLEGATIONS
CONFLICT OF INTEREST OF
MISTER SORBARA WHICH HE FEELS
HE HAS DEALT WITH CORRECTLY
BY TAKING SECURITIES
COMMISSION OUT OF HIS
MINISTRY.
SO HE THINKS HE HAS GOT
THAT UNDER CONTROL.
YOU, HAVE GOT NEW
INFORMATION ABOUT ROYAL
GROUP AS IT RELATES TO THE
EFFORTS BY THE STEELWORKERS
UNION TO UNIONIZE ONE OF ITS
SUBSIDIARY, A COMPANY CALLED
BARRON METALS.

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief." She’s in her late thirties. She has short blond hair down to the shoulders and wears a flashing pink suit.

Susanna says THAT'S RIGHT.
WELL THERE WAS APPARENTLY IN
98 THE UNITED STEELWORKERS
CONDUCTED AN ORGANIZING
DRIVE WHICH AS YOU SAID
SUBSIDIARY OF ROYAL GROUP.
BUT IT IS RIGHT ON THE --
WITH THE OTHER ROYAL GROUP
COMPANIES.
IN FACTORIES ON THE SAME
PREMISES.
THIS WAS SUCH CONTENTIOUS
ORGANIZING DRIVE THAT ENDED
UP AT THE ONTARIO LABOUR
RELATION BOARD FOR THEM TO
LOOK AT WHETHER THE COMPANY
HAD ACTUALLY BROKEN THE LAW
DURING THE ORGANIZING DRIVE.
AND THE BOARD DID FIND THAT
IT HAD IN FACT BROKEN THE
LAW.
BY HIRING TWO GANG MEMBERS
WHO MADE DEATH THREATS
AGAINST OTHER SRI LANKAN
EMPLOYEES.
THESE GANG MEMBERS WERE
HIRED JUST TEN DAYS BEFORE
THE VOTE ON WHETHER THE
EMPLOYEES WANTED TO UNIONIZE
OR NOT.
AND THE RULING WAS THAT THEY
HAD IN FACT MADE DEATH
THREATS AGAINST THE
EMPLOYEES IF THEY WERE --
WOULD VOTE IN FAVOUR OF THE
UNION.

Steve says LET ME STOP YOU
HERE.
WE HAVE HIGHLIGHTED
TESTIMONY FROM THOSE LABOUR
RELATION BOARD HEARINGS
WHICH WILL YOU TAKE US
THROUGH.
LET'S START TO BRING UP SOME
OF THOSE REFERENCES.

A quote appears on screen, under the title "Ruling of Ontario Labour Relations Board. Baron Metals versus USWA. May 4, 2001." The quote reads "Testimony: Detective Constable Furlong testified that Kuti and Kodi were known members of the...VVT gang (which has) been involved in various serious criminal acts including murder, attempted murder, serious assaults, extortion, kidnappings, frauds, and drugs and weapons offences...their weapon of choice is a sawed-off shotgun and the common method of attack is a drive-by shooting from a stolen vehicle...Kuti was shot in the back by a shotgun."

Steve continues
HERE IS RULING ONTARIO
BARRON METALS THAT'S A
SUBSIDIARY VERSUS THE USWA
THIS IS GOING ON THREE YEARS
AGO.
YOU ARE ON.

Susanna reads the quote on the slate.

She says
WE HAVE SOME TESTIMONY HERE
FIRST OF ALL DETECTIVE
CONSTABLE FURLONG WAS CALLED
TO STAND AND HE TESTIFIED
THAT TWO GANG MEMBERS IN
QUESTION WERE KNOWN MEMBERS
OF THE WHAT'S CALLED VVT
GANG.
WHICH HAS BEEN INVOLVED HE
SAID IN VARIOUS SERIOUS
CRIMINAL ACTS INCLUDING
MURDER ATTEMPTED MURDER
SERIOUS ASSAULTS EXTORTION
KIDNAPPINGS FRAUDS AND DRUGS
AND WEAPONS OFFENSES.
AND HE SAID THAT THE GANGS
WEAPON OF CHOICE IS A SAWED-OFF
SHOT GUN AND THAT COMMON
METHOD OF ATTACK IS A
DRIVE-BY SHOOTING FROM A
STOLEN VEHICLE.
I MUST SAY HAD BEEN SHOT IN
THE BACK BY A SHOT GUN.

Steve says
SO THESE TWO GUYS WERE
CONTRACTED BY THE COMPANY IT
WAS ALLEGED IN THESE
HEARINGS TO ESSENTIALLY
INTIMATE THE UNION INTO
GOING AWAY.
THAT'S THE DRIFT OF IT.
WE HAVE GOT MORE TESTIMONY
LET'S KEEP GOING HERE.
MORE TESTIMONY FROM THE
ONTARIO LABOUR RELATIONS
BOARD HEARINGS OF THREE
YEARS AGO.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Testimony." The quote reads "Detective Constable Furlong testified that Kodi was charged with three counts of attempted murder and illegal firearm possession...Kodi had also assaulted two police officers from Peel Region."

Susanna says
HE ALSO TESTIFIED THAT KODI
BEFORE AGAIN BEFORE HE CAME
TO THE PLANT HAD BEEN
CHARGED WITH THREE COUNTS OF
ATTEMPTED MURDER AND ITALY
FIREARM POSSESSION.
KODI HAD ASSAULTED TWO
POLICE OFFICERS FROM PEEL
REGION BEFORE HE WAS HIRED
BY THE COMPANY.

Steve says
SO WE ARE GETTING THE
DRIFT THESE WERE PRETTY BAD
GUYS.
LET'S CONTINUE AGAIN.
MORE TESTIMONY.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Testimony." The quote reads "Kuti then threatened if the union got established in the company, he would not hesitate to do anything, even kill people on behalf of the company."

Susanna says
THIS IS TESTIMONY ABOUT
WHAT THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS
ACTUALLY SAID.
HE HAD ASKED -- SORRY THEY
HAD OBTAINED AND THIS WAS
SEEN A LIST OF FOUR -- THE
NAMES AND ADDRESSES OF FOUR
EMPLOYEES.

Steve says
LET'S READ THIS FIRST.

Susanna continues
HE THEN THREATENED THESE
WERE TWO OF THESE EMPLOYEES.
HE THEN ATTEMPTED IF UNION
GOT ESTABLISHED IN THE COMPANY
HE WOULD NOT HESITATE TO DO
ANYTHING EVEN KILL PEOPLE ON
BEHALF OF THE COMPANY.
THESE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HE
WAS TALKING TO BY THE WAY,
WERE THOUGHT TO BE THE
EMPLOYEES WHO WERE IN FAVOUR
OF ORGANIZING THE UNION.

Steve says OKAY WE GOT MORE
TESTIMONY?

Susanna says WE DO.

Steve says LET'S KEEP IT
GOING.
LET'S BRING IT UP.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Testimony." The quote reads "Kuti explained he was a member of a gang, he was a criminal, and if (the Sri Lankan employee) went to vote on the day of the ballot he would shoot and kill him…(and to) tell the other Sri Lankan employees...because if the union were to win the vote, what he mentioned would happen."

Susanna says
AGAIN, TO EMPLOYEES HE
EXPLAINED HE WAS A MEMBER OF
GANG HE WAS A CRIMINAL AND
IF THE EMPLOYEE WENT TO THE
VOTE ON THE DAY BALLOT HE
WOULD SHOOT AND KILL HIM.
AND TO TELL THE OTHER
EMPLOYEES BECAUSE OF THE
UNION WERE TO WIN THE VOTE,
WHAT HE MENTIONED WOULD
HAPPEN.
HE SAID.

Steve says NAMELY THE DEATH
THREATS.

Susanna says EXACTLY.

Steve says
KEEP GOING MICHAEL LET'S DO
ANOTHER ONE.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Testimony." The quote reads "(Kuti) if the company wins, no problem, if the company loses, you will not live thereafter. You will not be alive. Tell the others also...You don’t know me. I will do as I’ve said."

Susanna says
HE SAID IF THE WINS NO
PROBLEMS IF THE COMPANY
LOSSES YOU WILL NOT LIVE
THEREAFTER.
WILL YOU NOT BE ALIVE TELL
THE OTHERS ALSO.
YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
I WILL DO WHAT I HAVE SAID.

Steve says IS THERE MORE?

Susanna giggles and says THERE IS MORE.

Steve says KEEP IT GOING.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Testimony." The quote reads "If the union were to win the vote, the company would close down the plant within a month...If the union wins you will be killed outside...we won’t do anything now, but if the union wins we will do it."

Susanna says
THEY SAID IF THE UNION
WERE TO WIN VOTE THE
COMPANY WOULD CLOSE DOWN THE
PLANT WITHIN MONTH THIS GOES
TO SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED A
LITTLE LATER AS A MATTER OF
FACT IN ANOTHER FACTORY IN
THE UNION WINS, YOU WILL
KILLED OUTSIDE.
WE WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING NOW
BUT IF THE UNION WINS, WE
WILL DO IT.

Steve says OKAY.
I THINK THAT'S GOT IT ON THE
SPECIAL EFFECT THAT WE PUT
UP ON THE SCREEN THERE.
THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HEARING
THIS CASE AT THE LABOUR
RELATIONS BOARD SAW ALL OF
THIS TESTIMONY HEARD THE
TESTIMONY.
AND WHAT CONCLUSION DID THEY
COME TO?

Susanna says
WELL THE VICE CHAIR OF
THE LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD
MADE A RULING A CONCLUSION
OF FACT AND I THINK WE HAVE
SOME -- WE THAT AS WELL.

A new quote appears on screen, under the title "Conclusions of fact." The quote reads "The only reasonable conclusion to draw from the evidence is that Kuti and Kodi were acting in some manner on the authority of a member of Baron Metals’ management.

Susanna continues
HE RULED THAT ONLY
REASONABLE CONCLUSION TO
DRAW FROM THE EVIDENCE IS
THAT TESTIMONY THEY WERE
ACTING IN SOME MANNER ON THE
AUTHORITY OF A MEMBER OF
BARRON METAL'S MANAGEMENT.

Steve says
SO THEY MADE SOME FAIRLY
CONCLUSION
NATURE OF THIS.

Susanna says
THEY DIDN'T SAY WHO IN
MANAGEMENT.
WAS PROMPTING HOME DO THIS.
BUT, THAT IT WAS ON SOMEONE
IN MANAGEMENT.

Steve says
BRINGS UP TO DATE DID THE
SUCCEED OR FAIL?

Susanna says
IT FAILED EVENTUALLY.
THERE WERE SEVERAL
SUBSEQUENT VOTES AFTER THAT.
AND IT DID IN THAT
PARTICULAR FACTORY IT DID
FAIL.
THERE WAS NORPLANT THAT THE
STEEL WORKERS DID SUCCEED IN
ORGANIZING.
IN THE ROYAL GROUP.
AND HOWEVER, THEY HAD A
REALLY HARD TIME GETTING A
FIRST COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT.
IT WENT TO BINDING
ARBITRATION AND THEY MADE A
RULING.
AND SAID WHAT THE AGREEMENT
SHOULD BE.
THE NEXT DAY THE COMPANY
ANNOUNCED THIS WAS ROYAL
GROUP COMPANY ANNOUNCED THAT
THE COMPANY WAS SHUTTING
DOWN AND MOVING THE JOBS ALL
TO TENNESSEE.
THAT WAS A DAY AFTER THE
THAT.

Steve says SO THAT WAS THAT.
THE REASON THIS IS GERMANE
YOU ARE TELLING US HERE
TODAY IS BECAUSE THIS
MISTER SORBARA WAS DIRECTOR ON
THIS COMPANY AT THE TIME
WHEN ALL OF THIS HAPPENED.
IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT
HE KNEW ANY OF THIS WAS
GOING ON.

Susanna says
WE KNEW -- AT LEAST -- I
MEAN THERE WERE SOME STORIES
IN THE PAPER PERTAINING.
BUT ALSO DURING THE THE
ELECTION, WHEN HE WAS FIRST
ELECTED, THERE WAS A
PRESIDENT RELEASE PUT OUT BY
THE STEELWORKERS ABOUT IT.
AND CALL HIM ACTUALLY A
UNION BUSTER FOR BEING ON
THE BOARD OF SUCH A COMPANY.

Steve says HE WOULD HAVE GOT
ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT FOR YOU
TO TELL US SOME OF THE OTHER
CORPORATE GOVERNANCE ASPECTS
GOING ON IN THE COMPANY.
SOME PEOPLE I GATHER MOW
NEITHER SHAREHOLDERS
WERE NOT PLEASED WITH THE
WAY PRINCIPALS INVOLVED WERE
RUNNING COMPANY.

Susanna says AS LONG AS AGO AS
LAST FEBRUARY, THE THERE WAS
A SHAREHOLDER'S MEETING
WHERE A LOT OF SHAREHOLDERS
WERE UP IN ARMS BECAUSE OF
THE FOUNDER OF THE COMPANY
MISTER VIC HAD A AWARDED
HIMSELF, A 5.6 MILLION DOLLAR
BONUS.
AT A TIME WHEN THE COMPANY
SHARES DURING 2002, WERE
GOING DOWN BY 60 PERCENT ALL THE
PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY WAS
GIVEN 3.2 MILLION DOLLAR
BONUS.
SO, YOU KNOW SHAREHOLDERS
WERE REALLY UPSET ABOUT
THAT.
THEY WERE ALSO RAISED
QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT
CURRENTLY BEING TALKED ABOUT
THIS WEEK, A TRANSACTION --
32 MILLION I THINK OR OVER
30 MILLION IN TRANSACTIONS
BETWEEN ROYAL GROUP AND
COMPANIES AND RESORT DOWN IN
SAINT KITTS THAT'S OWN BY
RELATIVES OF MISTER DESA.
SO THERE WERE SOME REAL
ISSUES OF CORPORATE
GOVERNANCE BROUGHT TO THE
FOR.

Steve says OKAY.
THIS IS ALL NEW
INFORMATION THAT YOU HAVE
BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
THIS.
WE DID WE SHOULD SAY
MISTER SORBARA IF HE DISCLOSED
ANYTHING IMPORTANT ON THIS
FILE TO THE CABINET
COMMITTEE, THAT
WOULD HAVE LOOKED AT HIS
POSSIBILITY OF BEING CABINET
MINISTER BEFORE HE WENT INTO
CABINET LET'S LOOK AT HIS
ANSWER AND THEN OUR FOURTH
READING PANELIST WILL COME
OUT WITH THEIR THOUGHTS.
ROLL THE TAPE.

Greg Sorbara attends a press conference.

A female journalist says
WHEN CAN BE THAT THE
VETTING PROCEDURE BEFORE WERE
YOU SWORN IN DID YOU EVERY
DISCLOSE TO THOSE THAT YOU --
THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME
PROBLEMS WITH CORPORATE
GOVERNANCE OR PROBLEMS THAT
MIGHT BE POTENTIALLY
EMBARRASSMENT TO THE
GOVERNMENT?

Greg says INVOLVEMENT ABSOLUTELY
NOT BECAUSE I WATT NOT AWARE
OF ANY.
I WAS NOT AWARE OF ANY.

The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

Steve says FEW POINTS OF
CLARIFICATION.
WE DID CONTACT GREG SORBARA
ABOUT THE ISSUES RAISED HERE
AND HE SAID HE COULD NOT
COMMENT ON ANY PUBLICLY
TRADE COMPANY WHILE IT IS
UNDER INVESTIGATION.
AS OUTSIDE DIRECTOR OF A
CORPORATION, HE HAD PRIMARY
RESPONSIBILITY TO HOLD
MANAGEMENT TO ACCOUNT.
AND HE FEELS DID HE THAT
DILIGENTLY.
NOW, ANOTHER THING WE
HAVE TALKED SO FAR ABOUT
BARRON METALS.
MISTER SORBARA WAS DIRECTOR OF
ROYAL THE PARENT COMPANY OF
BARRON.
NOW WHAT DID GREG SORBARA
HAVE OBLIGATION TO DISCLOSE
AND THE QUESTION EVERYBODY
IS ASKING AT QUEEN'S PARK
SHOULD HE RESIGN OR HAS HE
TAKEN APPROPRIATE STEPS TO
RESOLVE THIS ISSUE LET'S GET INTO
THIS WITH OUR PROVINCIAL
AFFAIRS OBSERVER.
SEAN CONWAY, DAVE COOK, AND
JANET ECKER FORMER PC
CABINET MINISTER.
SO MUCH OF WHAT WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT NOW, GOES TO
THE ISSUE OF WHAT
MISTER SORBARA DID OR DID NOT
TELL THIS WILL COMMITTEE
THAT VENTED HIS POTENTIAL
APPOINTMENT.
AS CABINET MINISTER.
AND I THINK OUR VIEWERS
DON'T ANYTHING IN ABOUT THIS
PROCESS I WANT YOU THREE WHO
HAVE ALL BEEN VETTED, TO
BUDGET GIVE US A SENSE OF
WHAT IT IS LIKE IN 85 BEFORE
YOU WENT INTO CABINET AS
EDUCATION MINISTER THEY
STAKE YOU ASIDE WHAT DO THIS
DO?

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Former Liberal Cabinet Minister." He’s in his fifties. He has short dark brown hair and is clean-shaven. He wears glasses, a dark suit, striped shirt and contrasting red tie.

He says
THEY DO A COUPLE THINGS
THEY RUN POLICE CHECK ON ALL
POTENTIAL CABINET
APPOINTMENTS AND SO, YOU ARE
MADE AWARE OF THAT AND THEN,
THE OFFICIALS FROM THE
PREMIER'S OFFICE AND OR
CABINET OFFICE, TAKE YOU
THROUGH QUITE ELABORATE SET
QUESTIONS.

Steve says LIKE WHAT?

Sean says THEY INVOLVE ARE YOUR
PRIVATE LIFE AND PUBLIC LIFE
IS THERE ANYTHING IN YOUR
PAST THAT WE SHOULD KNOW
ABOUT AND WHAT YOUR
GENERALLY LOOKING FOR IS
THERE ANYTHING THAT CAUSE
YOU OR THE GOVERNMENT
EMBARRASSMENT.
THEY WILL TALK ABOUT YOUR
FRIENDS.
IN SOME CASES PEOPLE ARE
PREVENTED FROM JOINING
CABINET BECAUSE QUITE
FRANKLY IN THEIR PAST THEY
MAY HAVE HAD SOME
ASSOCIATIONS THAT WOULD NOT
LOOK VERY GOOD IN
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says
JANET LET ME ASK YOU THIS
THREE OF THE YOU PROBABLY
HAVE MORE BASE OF BACKGROUND
GOING INTO CABINET THAN THE
OTHER TWO DID.
I THINK YOU -- WERE YOU MPP
YOU WERE MP OPPOSITION
MEMBERS.
NO BUSINESS TIES THAT I KNOW
OF.
IS IT UNCOMFORTABLE PROCESS
WHEN THEY START ASKING YOU
QUESTIONS ABOUT PREVIOUS
BUSINESS ASSOCIATIONS?

The caption changes to "Janet Ecker. Former PC Cabinet Minister." She’s in her forties.She has short brown hair and wears glasses, a fuchsia turtleneck and a black blazer.

She says
IT IS VERY INTRUSIVE PROCESS
BUT THERE HAS TO BE.
I MEAN WE WENT THROUGH
PROCESS THAT WAS QUITE
INTRUSIVE AND DETAILED.
IT WAS NOT HAD YOU EVER
BROKEN A LAW HAD YOU EVER
BEEN ACCUSED OF BREAKING A
LAW.
HAD YOU EVER EVEN THOUGHT OF
BREAKING A LAW.
IT WAS A VERY VERY HIGH
STANDARD.
IT HAS TO BE.
BECAUSE AS WE TALKED ABOUT
LAST WEEK, IT IS THE SORT OF
PERCEPTION AND THE SMELL
TEST THE FRONT PAGES ARE
ON STAR TEST.
IT IS A TOUGH STANDARD.
BUT YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED
TO MEET IT IN SOME FASHION.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO
SUCCESSFUL IN POLITICS.

Steve says OKAY.
DAVE YOU HAVE SEEN NOT ONLY
HOW M I GREG SORBARA HANDLED
THE ISSUE OF ONTARIO
SECURITIES COMMISSION BUT
SEEN HOW KELLEY'S REPORT
GOES ON THE ISSUE OF ONE OF
THE SUBSIDIARY COMPANIES OF
ROYAL.
AND THE QUESTION IS THAT THE
KIND OF INFORMATION THAT
SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISCLOSED
TO A CABINET MEETING
COMMITTEE?

The caption changes to "Dave Cooke. Former NDP Cabinet Minister." He0s in his mid-forties. He has short dark hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a pale grey shirt under a light grey suit.

Dave says WELL, I GUESS I WOULD
HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY
THINKING THAT THERE WOULD
NOT HAVE BEEN SOMETHING THAT
WOULD STICK OUT FROM GREG
SORBARA THAT HE WOULD
PROBABLY WANT TO REPORT AND
SINCE THIS HAPPENED SO SOON
AFTER THE GOVERNMENT WAS
SWORN IN THE DECEMBER
26 NOTIFICATION FROM THE OSC,
THAT I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
SOMETHING THAT THE MINISTER
MIGHT HAVE WANTED TO AT THE
TIME PREMIER.
BUT I GUESS FOR THIS
PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT STANDS
OUT MOST IS WHAT WAS NOT
SAID FROM DECEMBER 22 UNTIL
FEBRUARY.
AND.

Steve says BUT I AM TAKING
YOU BACK BEFORE THEN.

Dave says I REALIZE THAT.
BUT -- I DON'T THINK WE
CAN GIVE DEFINITIVE ANSWER
ON THAT BECAUSE WE DON'T
KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE BOARD
KNEW.
ALTHOUGH THERE SOME
SUSPICION THAT WERE SOME
GOVERNANCE PROBLEMS AT THAT
TIME AND AT THAT COMPANY.
EVEN MISTER SORBARA HAS MADE
SOME REFERENCE TO THAT AND
SORT OF PAINTING HIMSELF AS
ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS ON THE
BOARD TRYING TO CLEAN IT UP.

Janet says WELL, THE INTERESTING
THING HERE THERE IS TWO
OBSERVATION FIRST ALL DALTON
MCGUINTY SAID HE WAS GOING
TO SET A HIGHER STANDARD.
HE ACTUALLY SAID TO HIS
MINISTERS I KNOW YOU ARE ARE
GOING TO GET INTO TROUBLE
TELL ME FIRST.
AND LET'S FIGURE OUT THOUGH
DEAL WITH IT.
THAT NOT ONLY A GOOD
APPROPRIATE GOVERNMENT
PROCEED COME BUT GOOD
POLITICAL PROTOCOL.
AND WHAT WE HAVE
THE PREMIER IS THAT WE ALL
KNEW HE TROUBLE MAKE THE
DIFFICULT DECISIONS.
WE ARE NOW SAYING THAT HE IS
MAKING EASY DECISIONS IN
TERMS OF WHAT TO HAVE DONE
IN THE CIRCUMSTANCE.
BUT THE OTHER INTERESTING
OBSERVATION IS THAT
MINISTERS SORBARA'S
JUDGEMENT FIRST OF ALL --
EVEN IF YOU THINK THERE IS A
POSSIBILITY OF SOME ISSUE
THAT MIGHT EMBARRASS YOU OR
THE GOVERNMENT, YOU TELL
PEOPLE.
BECAUSE THAT'S THE FIRST
LINE OF DEFENCE FOR YOU.
SECONDLY HE KNEW INFORMATION
ON THE 22.
WHY DIDN'T HE.


Steve says DECEMBER 22.
YES.

Janet continues
WHY DID HE NOT TAKE SOME
STEPS TO INSULATE HIM STOEL
PROTECT HIMSELF TO HELP THE
GOVERNMENT DEAL WITH
SOMETHING THAT SOONER OTHER
LATER WAS GOING TO BECOME
PUBLIC.
AND IT DID NOTHING.

Steve says YOU ARE DEALING WITH
SECURITIES COMMISSION
PROBLEM AT THIS POINT,
RIGHT?

Janet says
WELL, YES ON DECEMBER 22
HE IS MINISTER RESPONSIBLE
FOR THE SECURITIES
COMMISSION.
THERE WERE OPTIONS THAT --
THERE ARE OPTIONS AN
MINISTER HAS WHEN THEY ARE
POTENTIAL CONFLICT WHEN THEY
ARE GIVEN INFORMATION THEY
MAY HAVE A PROBLEM TO TAKE
STEPS TO PROTECT YOURSELF
AND TO PROTECT THE
GOVERNMENT DOES NOT HAVE TO
BE PUBLIC.
AND IT APPEARS FROM MISTER GREG
SORBARA COMMENTS THAT DID HE
NOTHING TO DO THAT TO
PROTECT HIMSELF.

Sean says HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO
CAME TO GOVERNMENT WITH A
VERY CONSIDERABLE PERSONAL
INVOLVEMENT IN BUSINESS.
AND IN FACT I CAN'T THINK OF
TOO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ON ALL
SIDES OF THE HOUSE OVER LAST
25 OR 30 YEARS WHO WITH HAVE
A MUCH AS INVOLVEMENT IN
BUSINESS AFFAIRS AS GREG
SORBARA AND HIS FAMILY.
SO, THERE IS -- TO BE
PERFECTLY FRANK AND JANET
WAS ACTUALLY MAKING THIS
POINT A COUPLE WEEKS AGO ON
THIS SHOW THAT IT IS
PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT AND
CHALLENGING FOR PEOPLE WHO
DO HAVE A VERY EXTENSIVE
PAST.
NOW THAT DOES NOT EXONERATE
OR EXCUSE THEM FROM NORMAL
YOU KNOW COMPLIANCE BUT WHEN
YOU ASK THE QUESTION YOU
KNOW WHAT IS THERE OR WHEN I
RAISE THE QUESTION WHAT IS
THERE IN YOUR PAST CAN I
TELL YOU, IF YOU ARE GREG
SORBARA AND YOU YOU WOULD
HAD KIND OF INVOLVEMENT IN
BUSINESS THAT HE HAS HAD
OVER THE LAST NUMBER YEARS,
AND HIS FAMILY, THAT QUITE
FRANKLY IS A TOUGHER
QUESTION THAN IT FOR MOST
PEOPLE.

Steve says
BUT HELP ME WITH THIS IN.
IN OCTOBER HE IS NOT YET
CABINET MINISTER.
HE BECOMES CABINET MINISTER
IN THIRD WEEK OF OCTOBER.
AFTER THEY WIN THE ELECT IN
THOUGH INTERVENING WEEKS,
PRESUMABLY HE GETS VETED FOR
POTENTIAL CABINET JOB.

Sean says YES.

Steve continues DID HE HAVE
OBLIGATION AT THAT POINT TO
SAY WHOM EVER I AM DIRECTOR
ON THIS COMPANY.
AND THEY ARE ISSUE SUFFERED
ROUND.
ING CORPORATE GOVERNANCE AND
ISSUES SURROUNDING POTENTIAL
UNIONIZATION OF THE COMPANY
BY THE STEELWORKERS UNION
WHICH IF THOSE FACT EMERGE
COD PROVE EMBARRASSING TO ME
AND THE GOVERNMENT?

Sean says WELL THE REALITY IS THAT
AS I UNDERSTAND THE YOU
SHOWED EARLIER THE ISSUE
INVOLVING THE SUBSIDIARY
BARRON METALS WAS MATTER OF
PUBLIC RECORD THERE WAS NO
SURPRISE IN THAT.
THERE WAS A WELL-PUBLIC
HEARING I BELIEVE AT THE
LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD SO
QUITE FRANKLY IF I AM
ADVISOR IS THAT'S MATH
TESTIFY PUBLIC RECORD.

Steve says
HE HE DOES NOT NEED TO
DISCLOSE IF?

Janet says I DON'T THINK TO SAME
DEGREE.

Dave says THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.
EVEN THOUGH THE THERE WOULD
BE A RECORD OF IT, I MEAN
THE PROCESS IS SUCH, THAT
THEY WOULD NOT -- THEY DON'T
GO AND DO RESEARCH ABOUT
WELL HEARINGS THAT MIGHT
HAVE INVOLVED ANY COMPANY
THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN
WITH.


Steve says
HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW
ABOUT IT FOR THE RECORD.

Janet says YOU THE YOU KNEW -- JUST
A SECOND.
THE BYELECTION.
HE KNEW THERE WERE ISSUES.

Steve says JUNE OF 2001.

Janet continues OKAY.
HE KNEW THERE WERE ISSUES
AROUND THIS COMPANY.
SO, WHEN YOU GO THROUGH THAT
VET PROCESS AND AGAIN,
MISTER SORBARA I MEAN HE HAS
BEEN IN POLITICS FOR A LOT
OF OF YEARS IT IS NOT LIKE
HE WAS NEW COMING INTO THE
POLITICAL GAME.
YOU TELL THEM EVERYTHING
YOU CAN THINK OF.
BUT SO THERE IS ONE
JUDGEMENT CALL.
BUT THE SECOND JUDGEMENT
CALL HERE THAT I THINK
PEOPLE ARE ASKING QUESTIONS
ABOUT IS ON THE 22.
HE WAS TOLD SOMETHING.
THAT HE MUST HAVE KNOWN
WOULD HAVE CREATED PROBLEM
FOR HIM AND HIS GOVERNMENT.
WHAT DID DOE TO HELP DEAL
WITH IT AND HE IS SAYING HE
DID NOTHING.
I GUESS.

Steve says HE IS SAYING HE WAS
PROHIBITED FROM TELLING
ANYBODY.

Janet continues
AND THAT IS NOT ACCURATE
LAW ALLOWS MINISTERS TO USE
INFORMATION TO IN COURSE OF
DOING THEIR DUTIES AND DOING
YOUR DUTY HELPING YOUR
GOVERNMENT RESPOND TO AN
ISSUE.

Dave says
THERE HAS BEEN ENOUGH
RESEARCH THATCH SAYS HE
COULD SH AND SHOULD HAVE AT
LEAST SPOKE TO THE PREMIER I
MEAN THE FACT THAT HIS CHIEF
OF STAFF WAS AWARE OF THE
SITUATION PEOPLE IN MINISTRY
WERE AWARE THEREOF IS NO
ALMOST TO TAKE SAYING THAT
HE WOULD NO GO TALK TO HIS
PREMIER.

Janet says PUBLIC DISCLOSURE HE
SHOULD NOT DONE.

Steve says
YOU THINK -- YOU SAY HE
WAS UNDER AN OBLIGATION AT
THAT TIME WITH THIRD WEEK OF
DECEMBER WE ARE TALKING NOW
TO TELL THE PREMIER A
COMPANY ON WHICH I USE TAOBD
DIRECTOR IS UNDER
INVESTIGATION BY THE ONTARIO
SECURITIES COMMISSION I AS
MINISTER OF FINANCE AM
CHARGE OF THE COMMISSION.
NOW YOU KNOW.
HE DIDN'T DO THAT YOU THINK
HE SHOULD HAVE?

Janet says I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE.

Dave says
AND THERE WAS NO WAY THAT
FOR THE NEXT 60 DAYS, AND
UNTIL THE FACT WAS MADE
PUBLIC AND YOU CAN ASK ALL
SORTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED TO INVESTORS
IN BETWEEN AND NEW INVESTORS
AND WHETHER THEY SHOULD HAVE
KNOWN ABOUT THIS INFORMATION
AND THAT'S OSC THAT SHOULD
HAVE MADE SURE THAT
HAPPENED.
BUT IN THE 60 TASTE, THE
MINISTER WAS EITHER IN REAL
CONFLICT OR IN POTENTIAL
CONFLICT.
AND BECAUSE HE STILL HAD THE
OSC UNDER HIS CONTROL.

Janet says
AND THERE ARE PROCEDURES.

Steve says HANG ON.
NOW THAT THE SECURITIES
COMMISSION SOUND PHILLIPS
AND NOT HIS.
IS THAT NOT A PROBLEM ANY
MORE?

Dave says I THINK THAT THAT IS
MUCH LESS AFTER PROBLEM AND
IF HE HAD -- IF HE HAD MOVED
ON TO THE 22ND, HE HAD TAKEN
THOSE STEPS I THINK THAT
THERE WOULD BE VERY LITTLE
DID THAT THE OPPOSITION
PARTIES OR ANYONE ELSE COULD
DO ABOUT SAYING HE SHOULD
RESIGN.

Sean says
I LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING I
THINK IT IS JUDGEMENT CALL
AND I THINK ON THE BASIS OF
WHAT I NOW KNOW AND SEE, AND
I KNOW MORE THIS WEEK THAN I
KNEW LAST WEEK.
I THINK THAT REASONABLE
PERSON COULD SAY THAT
PRINCIPLE MISTER SORBARA DID
EXERCISE REASONABLE
JUDGEMENT.
I UNDERSTAND MY FRIENDS WILL
TAKE A DIFFERENT VIEW.

Steve says IN TELLING THE PREMIER?

Sean says IN NOT TELLING HIM.

Steve says LET HIM FINISH.

Sean continues BECAUSE I REALLY FEEL
STRONGLY ABOUT THIS.
ON THE BASIS OF WHAT WE NOW
KNOW ON THE 22nd OF DECEMBER,
THE HEAD OF THE ONTARIO
SECURITIES COMMISSION MADE A
HEADS-UP CALL TO THE CHIEF
OF STAFF OF MISTER SORBARA
SAYING THAT ANNOUNCEMENT WAS
IMMINENT THAT ROYAL GROUP
TECHNOLOGY WOULD BE MAKING
WITH RESPECT TO SOME KIND OF
AN INVESTIGATION.
THAT NEVER MATERIALIZED FOR
ANOTHER TWO MONTHS.
65 DAYS I THINK IT WAS.
BOTH THE ONTARIO SECURITIES
COMMISSION ITSELF IS NOW
SAYING, AND AS HAS THE
INDEPENDENT ETHICS
COMMISSIONER FOR THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO JUDGE
OSBORNE THAT MISTER SORBARA
BEHAVED REASONABLE UNDER
THOSE CIRCUMSTANCE.
NOW MY OWN VIEW IS THAT SOME
ONE AND I THINK IT OUGHT TO
HAVE BEEN THE SECURITIES
COMMISSION ONCE THEY MADE
THAT CALL ON THE 22ND OF
DECEMBER AND THE THEM MEANT
ANNOUNCEMENT WAS NOT FOR THE
COMING FOR ANOTHER 56 DAYS,
MY VIEW IS THAT THE
SECURITIES COMMISSION HAD A
RESPONSIBILITY AS THE
REGULATOR TO STEP IN AND
CAUSE SOME KIND OF
ANNOUNCEMENT TO HAVE BEEN
MADE MUCH MUCH EARLIER.

Sean says
WHAT HAPPENED AS I STAND
WAS THERE ORDER FROM THE OSC
THAT THIS WAS TO BE
DISCLOSED BY THE COMPANY.
SO THE FACT THAT ORDER WAS
NOT FOLLOWED FOR 60 DAYS, I
THINK YOU’RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
THAT THERE IS REAL QUESTION
ON WHY OSC DID NOT ACT THAT
DOES NOT EXCUSE THE
TREASURER FROM NOT TAKING
THE APPROPRIATE STEPS TO
MAKE SURE THAT HE WAS NOT IN
CONFLICT.

Sean says
BUT REMEMBER HE IS PERSON
WHO IS GOING TO BE
PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THIS.
HE IS NOT JUST MINISTER OF
FINANCE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
SECURITIES COMMISSION.
BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT
ANY OF HOUSE HAVE BEEN IN
POLICE WHEN YOURSELF
PERSONALLY IMPLICATED AS HE
WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOMENT
HE GOT THAT CALL ABOUT A
POTENTIAL OR PENDING PUBLIC
REPORT ABOUT AN
INVESTIGATION HE IS IN A
PARTICULARLY CONFLICTING
STATE.

Janet says
BUST JUST A MINUTE WHAT
DID HE DO TO DEAL WITH THAT?
I -- I WILL ANSWER.

Sean says HE DID APPROPRIATE THING.

Janet says WELL, NO.
COMMISSIONER WAS VERY VERY
CAREFUL WHAT HE SAID.
WE HAVE ALL BEEN IN
SITUATIONS.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IN.
I WANT TO GET THE KEY THING
ON THIS.
READ YOUR NEWSPAPER THRZ ARE
NO LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
ABOUT THIS.
WHEN I TALKED TO THIS WITH
MY TUESDAY EVENING MOCK KEY
BUDDIES NOBODY CARES ABOUT
THIS STORY.
MY QUESTION JANET IS THIS A
STORY THAT PEOPLE AT QUEEN'S
PARK ARE OBSESSED ABOUT BUT
THE REGULAR PUBLIC DON'T
CARE AT ALL?

Janet says
WELL, A SAD COMMENTARY FOR
MANY PUCK IT IS SORT OF POX
ON EVERYBODY'S HOUSE CYNICAL
ABOUT THE PROCESS.
THAT THEY WILL SEE THIS AS
BUSINESS AS USUAL.
WHICH IS VERY SAD THING FOR
DEMOCRACY WITH AND ONE OF
THE REASONS WHY WHEN AIF SET
HIGHER STANDARD MANY OF US
SAID YES, LET'S TRY AND DO
THAT.
I DON'T.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THESE RESIGN?

Janet says
I THINK HE SHOULD STEP ASIDE
NOW.
I DON'T TAKE PLEASURE IN
THAT BUT I THINK HE SHOULD.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THESE RESIGN?

Dave says
I THINK HE SHOULD RESIGN I
THINK THAT REASON THAT
PUBLIC HAS NOT BECOME
ENGAGED IS THAT IT IS MUCH
MORE COMPLICATED THING THAN
TRYING TO LOOK AT THE
HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS
AND IT IS DIFFERENT
TYPE OF THING.

Steve says
DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD STEP
DOWN?

Sean says WELL TO YOUR FIRST
QUESTION IT IS IT A
COMPLICATED STORY I THINK FOR
A LOT OF PEOPLE, AT TIM
HORTON IT IS SUFFICIENTLY
COMPLICATED THAT THEY DON'T
PERHAPS UNDERSTAND IT FULLY.
ON THE BASIS OF WHAT I KNOW
NOW KNOW ABOUT WHAT
TRANSPIRED IN THE PERIOD NO
I THINK MISTER SORBARA CAN
CARRY ON BECAUSE LIKE THE
INDEPENDENT ETHICS
COMMISSIONER ON THE BASIS OF
WHAT I NOW KNOW I THINK HIS
JUDGE MEANT WAS REASONABLE.

Steve says OKAY.
SEAN CONWAY, DAVE COOK.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR
CONTRIBUTION ON THIS A
DIFFICULT AND COMPLICATED
STORY.
WE THANK YOU FOR HELPING US
TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT BETTER.
AND THAT'S "FOURTH
READING."
I AM STEVE PAIKIN, UNTIL NEXT
SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2004, The Ontario Educational.

Watch: Royal Pain