Transcript: In Contempt? | May 11, 2003

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a gavel banging against a desk, and MPPs voting in the Legislature.

Paula says THIS WEEK ON
"FOURTH READING" MAGNA
BUDGET MEGA FALL OUT.
THE SPEAKER RULES THE
GOVERNMENT IN CONTEMPT
OF THE LEGISLATURE AND
NEW "FOURTH READING."
POLL TELLS US WHAT THE
PEOPLE THINK.

Images of legislative sessions appear on screen.

Paula is in the studio with 3 guests.

Paula Todd is in her early forties, with chin length straight blond hair with bangs. She wears a white top and a raspberry jacket.

Paula says HELLO
EVERYBODY I AM PAULA
TODD AND WELCOME TO
"FOURTH READING."
LEGISLATE OF BUSINESS AT
QUEEN'S PARK HAS GROUND
TO A HALT.
SPEAKER GARY CARR HAS
RULED THE TORY
GOVERNMENT IS IN
CONTEMPT OF THE
LEGISLATURE.
ER TO PRESENTING ITS
RECENT BUDGET AT THE
MAGNA AUTO PARTS
TRAINING CENTRE IN
BRAMPTON.
THE SO-CALLED MAGNA
BUDGET WAS UNVEILED
MARCH 27TH.
RATHER THAN IN THE
ONTARIO LEGISLATURE AS
IS TRADITIONAL.
BUT ACTUALLY UP TO THE
MPPs TO DECIDE WHAT TO
DO ABOUT THE CONTEMPT
MOTION NOW.
IN THE MEAN TIME, NO
BILL CAN BE PASSED.
LET'S LISTEN TO JUST
WHAT THE SPEAKER HAD TO
SAY.

A clip from a session at the legislature rolls with the caption "Cary Carr. Speaker of The House."

Gary is in his late forties, clean-shaven and with wavy brown hair. He wears glasses and a black court robe.

He says MATURE DEMOCRACY IS
NOT DOCILE OR ONE WEEK
COMMUNICATION VEHICLE.
IT IS INTERACTIVE
REPRESENTATION
INSTITUTIONAL THAT
ALLOWS GOVERNMENT TO
PROPOSE AND DEFEND ITS
POLICIES.
IT ALSO ALLOWS THE
OPPOSITION TO SCRUTINIZE
AND HOLD THE GOVERNMENT
TO ACCOUNT FOR THOSE
POLICIES.
IT IS OPEN WORKING AND
RELEVANT SYSTEM OF
SCRUTINY AND
ACCOUNTABILITY.
IF ANY MEMBER OF THIS
HOUSE HAS A PROBLEM WITH
THAT CONCEPT OF
PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY,
THEN HE HAS SOME SERIOUS
EXPLAINING TO DO.

The caption changes to "Sean Conway. Liberal. Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke."

Sean is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair. He wears glasses, a brown suit, white shirt and a patterned tie.

He says AT THE CORE OF THAT
RESPONSIBILITY FOR
PARLIAMENT IS THE RIGHT
OF ANY PARLIAMENT TO
HOLD GOVERNMENT
RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT IT
DOES AND NO WHERE IS
THAT ACCOUNTABILITY
FUNCTION MORE CENTRAL
AND MORE CRUCIAL THAN ON
MONEY MATTERS.
THE PURSE.

The caption changes to "Chris Stockwell. Government House Leader."

Chris is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with very short receding brown hair. HE wears a black suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

He says MANY, MANY HUNDREDS
AND HUNDREDS OF
POTENTIALLY THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE SEE THE BUDGET
BEFORE US.
THOUSANDS.
SO THAT'S GOING TO MAKE
IT VERY DIFFICULT TO
ADOPT THIS MOTION.

The caption changes to "Peter Kormos. NDP. Niagara Centre."

Peter is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight white hair. He wears glasses and a white shirt.

He says LET'S MAKE THIS VERY
CLEAR.
THAT IN THE AFFECT WHAT
HAS BEEN FOUND IS NOT
JUST A CONTEMPT FOR THIS
PARLIAMENT BUT A
CONTEMPT FOR THE PEOPLE
OF ONTARIO.
A CONTEMPT FOR THE
TAXPAYERS OF THIS
PROVINCE.
AND CONTEMPT FOR EVERY
RESIDENT OF THIS
PROVINCE AND EVERY VOTER
OF THIS PROVINCE.

Paula says SO HOW SERIOUS
IS THIS FOR THE ERNIE
EAVES GOVERNMENT?
LET'S GET INTO THAT WITH
OUR QUEEN'S PARK
ANALYSTS.
ROBERT MAHONEY FORMER
PRESIDENT OF THE LIBERAL
PARTY.
CURRENTLY WITH LAW FIRM
FRAZIER.
RUTH GRIER FORMER
CABINET MINISTER AND BOB
RAY NDP GOVERNMENT AND
SITTING IN THE PC CHAIR
THIS WEEK.
JULIA BROWN.
PC PARTY ACTIVIST WHO
WORKED A POLITICAL
STAFFER THE QUEEN'S PARK
FOR SEVEN YEARS AND
PROBABLY KNOWS A LOT OF
SECRETS.
I WANT TO START BEFORE
WE GET INTO THIS I WANT
EVERYBODY'S OPINION ON
GARY KAEUR'S RULE AGO
WHEN WE HAVE JUST SEEN
IS THE DEBATE AT QUEEN'S
PARK SEAN CONWAY HAS A
MOTION ON THE FLOOR TO
MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY
ESSENTIAL THAT WHEN THE
BUDGET PRESENTED IN
ONTARIO, IT GOES TO THE
LEGISLATURE FIRST.
BEFORE IT GOES ANYWHERE
ELSE AND THEY WILL
DEBATE THAT PROBABLY FOR
MANY MANY MORE DAYS TO
COME.
LET'S START RIGHT AT THE
VERY TOP.
GARY CARR HAS MADE THIS
VERY CONTROVERSIAL
RULING.
THE GOVERNMENT IS IN
CONTEMPT OF THE
LEGISLATURE.
IS HE RIGHT?

The caption changes to "Julia Brown. Ontario P.C Activist."

Julia is in her mid-thirties, with long straight red hair with bangs in a low ponytail. She wears a pink top and a black blazer.

She says WELL IT IS HARD TO
SAY AT THIS POINT.
BECAUSE I THINK HE
RUINED HIS OBJECTIVITY
WHEN HE CAME OUT AND
PROVIDED HIS OWN OPINION
ON IT THIS.
AND STATED VERY CLEARLY
THAT HE WAS OPPOSED
DOING OUTSIDE OF THE
LEGISLATURE AND I AM NOT
SURE WE CAN TAKE HIS
RULING TODAY TO BE 100 PERCENT
OBJECTIVE.
UNDER THOSE
CIRCUMSTANCE.
WHICH IS REALLY
UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE IT
IS YOU KNOW IT IS HOT
TOPIC AND I THINK WE
SHOULD FEEL THAT WE HAVE
CONFIDENCE IN THIS
SPEAKER AND I AM NOT
SURE THAT WE DO.

Paula says RUTH IS THIS DECISION
BY THE SPEAKER TAINTED
BECAUSE HE IS EXPRESSING
HIS OPINION?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth is in her sixties, with short straight white hair. She wears glasses, a pale yellow top and jacket and a golden necklace.

She says I THINK IT IS
UNFORTUNATE.
BUT I DON'T THINK
TAINTED THIS DECISION.
AND IT IS WELL-REASONED
DECISION AND I AM SURE
AND I KNOW FROM HIS RULINGS
THE PAST HE OBVIOUSLY
TAKES ADVICE FROM THE
CLERK AND FROM THOSE IN
THE IS SURROUNDING HIM.
AND I THINK IT IS GOOD
DECISION.
AND I THINK THE MOTION
THAT SEAN CONWAY WAS
BROUGHT, WHICH IS IN
CONFORMITY WITH THE
DECISION, THE SPEAKER
SAID, IT IS NOT FOR ME
TO SAY WHAT HAPPENS IT
IS NOW UP TO THE HOUSE
TO DEBATE THIS ISSUE.
AND I THOUGHT SEAN
CONWAY WAS REALLY
EXCELLENT AS HE OPENED
THAT DEBATE FOR BOTH OF
THEM.
IT IS REALLY I THINK
VERY FINE FINALE TO
THEIR CAREERS.

Paula says RICHARD?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a navy blue suit, blue shirt and patterned tie.

He says I DON'T THINK HE IS
ANY MORE TAINTED BY THE
FACT THAT HE HAD A VIEW
ON PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRAT
IS HE AND SO FORTH THAN
BY THE FACT ALSO
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
MEMBER OF THE
LEGISLATURE.
HE IS ABLE TO SEPARATE
THOSE THINGS.
SECONDLY THE WAY THESE
THINGS WORK IS MEMBERS
MAKE ARGUMENT CHRIS
STOCK WELL LEADING EARTH
GOVERNMENT SEAN CONWAY
FOR THE LIBERALS AND
PETER FOR THE
DEMOCRATS AND THEN
LIKE A JUDGE, MISTER CARR
RECEIVES ADVICE FROM
STAFF AND FROM LEGAL
STAFF AND CLERKS AND SO
FORTH IN THE FORMULATION
OF HIS DECISION.
THEY LOOK PRECEDENT AND
LOOK AT THE LAW.
SO, YOU KNOW I -- IT
GIVES JULIA ARGUMENT.
I THINK AT THE END THE
DATE OF IT IS FAIR.
AND I THINK IT IS
WELCOME IN THE SENSE
THAT IT IS YET ANOTHER
INDICATION THAT PEOPLE
ARE IN ONTARIO ARE
TAKING SOME HEED TO THIS
THING.
THE THAT IT DOES MATTER
THAT HOLDING GOVERNMENT
TO ACCOUNT IS IMPORTANT
THING.

Paula says ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT SPEAKER SAID
IN HIS RULING IS THAT
THE REASON YOU HAVE A
LEGISLATURE IS SO THAT
POLITICIANS WHO ARE DULY
ELECTED IT CAN SPEAK
DIRECTLY TO THE PEOPLE
WHO HAVE ELECTED THEM
AND FOR WHOM THEY ARE
DOING BUSINESS.
PRIOR TO THE BUDGET, WE
HEARD FROM VARIOUS
MEMBERS OF THE TORY
GOVERNMENT THAT THEY
WANTED TO TAKE THE
BUDGET OUTSIDE OF THE
HOUSE.
BECAUSE THEY FELT THAT
THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO
SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE
PEOPLE.
IS THAT STILL THE
FEELING?
ARE THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE IF
REELECTED WILL THEY
CONTINUE TO HAVE THEIR
BUDGET OUTSIDE OF THE
HOUSE?

Julia says WELL I AM NOT SURE
THAT UNDER THE
CIRCUMSTANCE THEY WILL
FEEL THAT IT WOULD BE
WORTH THEIR WHILE TO DO
IT AGAIN.
BUT I ALSO THINK YOU
HAVE TO LOOK BACK AND
REMEMBER THAT THE LEGISLATURE
WAS NOT GOING TO BE
RECALLED UNTIL APRIL
30TH.
WHICH WAS YOU KNOW FOR
WHOLE OTHER SET OF
REASONS.
BUT THAT LAST YEAR,
MISTER EAVES HAD MADE THE
COMMITMENT TO THE PEOPLE
OF ONTARIO THAT HE WOULD
PRESENT A BUDGET BEFORE
THE END OF MARCH.
THE LEGISLATURE WAS NOT
BEING RECALLED.
AND HE HAD TO -- IN
ORDER TO PRESENT IT HE
HAD TO OUTSIDE OF THE
HOUSE.
WHETHER -- I THINK WE
ARE SEEING THAT PERHAPS
THAT WAS NOT IN BEST
INTERESTS OF DAY THE BUT
IT WAS BEST INTERESTING
OF THE PEOPLE ONTARIO
THAT DID HE MEET
COMMITMENT.

Ruth says YOU ARE BEING
PRECIOUS ON THAN.
THE HOUSE WAS DUE TO
COME BACK ON MARCH 17TH.
IT WAS HIS DECISION TO
DELAY IT.
BUT IT ALSO PROVIDED HIM
THEN WITH THE RATIONAL
THAT I AM GOING TO GO
DIRECTLY TO THE PEOPLE.
AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE
SEEN IN TODAY'S RULING
AND OVERWHELMINGLY
NEGATIVE REACTION THAT
THEY GOT WAS THAT IT WAS
A PR PLOY AND THAT IT
BACK FIRED AND THAT'S
WHY THE NDP IN THE DEBATE
TODAY O AND THIS
WEEK HAVING BEEN SAYING
IT SHOULD BE PAID FOR
THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES.

Paula says CAN I ASK YOU
INSIDERS QUESTION.
I HOPE YOU CAN HELP US
WITH THIS.
THERE WAS A AS BOTH OF
YOUR OPPONENTS HAVE SAID
THERE WAS A REAL HUMAN
CRY ABOUT THIS ONE.
I THINK IT TOOK
EVERYBODY BY SURPRISE.
JUST HOW PASSIONATE
VOTERS SEEM TO FEEL
ABOUT HAVING THEIR
BUDGET PRESENTED
ELSEWHERE.
GIVEN THAT THAT WAS
HAPPENING, WHY DIDN'T
THE GOVERNMENT WHY
DIDN'T TORIES STRATEGIST
PULLBACK BECAUSE THE
OUTCRY BEGAN BEFORE THIS
WHOLE THING HIT THE
FLOOR?

Julia says WELL I MEAN I WAS NOT
THERE FOR THOSE
DISCUSSION OR PART OF
THEM.
AND I GO BACK TO THE
FACT THAT PREMIER MADE
COMMITMENT AND I DON'T
KNOW WHAT REASONS WERE
FOR NOT BRINGING THE
HOUSE BACK UNTIL APRIL
30.
WAS PREMIER DECISION AND
HE MADE IT.
HE WAS MERE DEEPING TO
INTRODUCE BUDGET AND I
REALLY THINK THAT YOU
KNOW AT THE END THE DATE
OF IT IS BUDGET THAT'S
IMPORTANT IT IS CONTENT
OF THE BUDGET THAT'S
IMPORTANT.
IT IS NOT WHERE IT IS
PRESENTED.
AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW
WE ARE AS CANADIAN WE
TEND TO BE STUCK ON
TRADITION AND DOING
THINGS THE WAY WE HAVE
ALWAYS DONE THEM.
BUT I REALLY THINK THAT
WHAT NEEDS TO BE FOCUSED
ON IS WHAT WAS IN THE
BUDGET AND WHETHER OR
NOT THE PEOPLE OF
ONTARIO FEEL IT
ADDRESSED THEIR ISSUE.

Richard says TWO POINTS OF
DISAGREEMENT.
IT IS HARDLY DEFENSIBLE
POSITION TO NOT HAVE
LEGISLATURE OF THE
PROVINCE SITTING FROM
DECEMBER UNTIL YOU KNOW
ESSENTIALLY LATE APRIL.
I MEAN WHAT IS THE
BUSINESS OF THE
LEGISLATURE IS NOT JUST
PASS BILLS GOVERNMENT
THINK IT IS.
THEY THINK LEGISLATURES
ARE SUPPOSED TO RUBBER
STAMP BILLS.
THE BUSINESS IS TO HOLE
GOVERNMENT TO ACCOUNT.
AND IN FACT IT IS MORE
IMPORTANT BUSINESS
LEGISLATURE THAN PASSING
BILLS.
BECAUSE, PEOPLE ELECT
THEIR MEMBERS OF
PARLIAMENT, NOT ALL OF THEM,
MANY OF WHOM ARE NOT
GOVERNMENT.
AND SECONDLY, I THINK
THAT THE DECISION TO --
FIRST OF ALL, HE MADE
THE WRONG DECISION.
SECONDLY, THE WHOLE
THING YOU ARE RIGHT,
MUST BE CALLED INTO THE
QUESTION.
THIS IS BECOME HUGE
PROBLEM FOR HIM.
IT IS MAGNA BUDGET WITH
THE MEGA CONTROVERSY AND
ALL OF THAT SORT OF
STUFF.
AND YOU KNOW WE GOT TO
HAVE A LOOK AT IT --
THEY THOUGHT IT WAS
SMART TACTIC AS RUTH
SAID I THINK YOU GOT TO
HAVE A LOOK AT BASICALLY
DAMAGE CONTROL RIGHT
NOW.
THEY ARE IN SOME TROUBLE
ON THIS.

Paula says I WANT TO TALK
TO JULIA VIN AND TAKE
WHO LOOK AT THE CONTENT.
YOU MENTIONED TROUBLE.
THE DOMINION BOND RATING
SERVICE HAS SAID THEY
COMBED THROUGH THAT
BUDGET, AND UNLIKE WHAT
WE ARE BEING TOLD BY THE
GOVERNMENT THEY HAVE
FOUND IN FACT THAT THE
GOVERNMENT RAN 572
MILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT
LAST YEAR AND IS RISK OF
RUNNING TWO BILLION
DOLLAR DEFICIT THIS
YEAR.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK WHAT
POLITICIANS HAVE TO SAY
ABOUT THIS.

A clip from a legislative session rolls.

A caption reads "Gerry Phillips, MPP. Liberal Scarborough Agincourt."

Gerry is in his late fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight gray hair. He wears a black jacket, white shirt and patterned yellow tie.

He says THERE ARE MANY TIMES
OVER LAST -- OVER THE
6-6 AND HALF YEARS THAT
I WAS FINANCE MINISTER
THAT DBRS AND OTHER
AGENCIES BOTH NEW YORK
AND IN TORONTO,
DISAGREED WITH THE PATH
THIS GOVERNMENT WAS
TAKING.
BECAUSE THEY LIKE YOU
FAILED TO GRASP ONE
SIMPLE FACT:
IF YOU ALLOW MILLIONS OF
ONTARIANS TO KEEP
THEIR OWN MONEY, THEY
SPEND IT.
THAT GENERATED 1150,000
JOBS AND 16 BILLION
DOLLARS IN MONEY.
THEY HAVE PROMISING TO
SELL ABOUT 2 BILLION
DOLLARS OF ASSETS
PROVINCIAL ASSETS.
TO BALANCE THE BOOKS.
THEY ARE ASSUMING ABOUT
770 MILLION DOLLARS FROM
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
SO WHAT THE AGENCY SAID
IS LISTEN, FROM OUR
POINT OF VIEW THOSE
ASSETS SALES ARE SO
RISKY WE WOULDN'T CLUE
THEM IN OUR CALCULATION.
SO, WE THINK THAT
PROVINCE IS GOING TO BE
RUNNING A REAL DEFICIT
THIS YEAR OF 1.9
BILLION.
ALMOST 2 BILLION
DOLLARS.

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader."

Howard is in his late forties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt, patterned purple tie and a pin on his lapel.

He says CONSERVATIVE HAVE ALWAYS
TRIED TO PRESENT
THEMSELVES AS BEING VERY
FISCALLY SOUND AND VERY
FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE.
SO POLITICALLY, WHEN YOU
HAVE BOND RATING
AGENCIES AND OTHER
FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS
SAYING HEY NONE OF THIS
MAKES SENSE, YOU DON'T
HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET,
YOU CANNOT PAY FOR WHAT
YOU SAY YOU ARE
PROVIDING, POLITICALLY
IT IS VERY DAMAGING.

Paula says JULIA VERY
DAMAGING.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO
THAT?

Julia says I THINK WE ARE LOOKING
AT GOVERNMENT WHO FIRST
OF ALL WAS ONE THAT
INTRODUCED THE LEDGE
ADDITION TO PREVENT THE
GOVERNMENT FROM RUNNING
DEFICIT AND WHO IMPOSED
SOME PRETTY SEVERE
PERSONAL FINANCIAL
PENALTIES.

Ruth says AND THEN AMENDED TO
EXCLUDE THEMSELVES.

Julia says WELL THEY -- AT LEAST
INTRODUCED LEGISLATION
AND THEY DID IMPOST
PENALTIES AND I THINK
THEY.

Ruth says HAS ANY ONE PAID?

Julia says NO BECAUSE THEY HAVE
NOT RUN A DEFICIT.
AND THEY HAVE BEEN
CONSISTENT IN THEIR
RECORD OF RUNNING
BALANCED BUDGET.

Paula says DO YOU DISMISS
THE WHAT BOND RATING
SERVICE SAID?

Julia says I THINK THAT
GOVERNMENT HAS KEPT
THEIR COMMITMENT TO THAT
AND THEY WILL CONTINUE
TO.

Ruth says PAULA WE CAN'T --
SORRY.
LET ME MAKE POINT I AM
SURE YOU WERE ALSO GOING
TO MAKE THE FEDERAL
MONEY WHAT BAILED THEM
OUT LAST YEAR.
THEY HAVE HAD A DEFICIT
LAST YEAR IF HAD NOT
BEEN FOR 967 MILLION DOLLARS
MARCH ACCORD SIGNED
ABOUT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT WHICH THEY
USED.
AND WE HAVE NOT EVEN
TALKED ABOUT THE WHOLE
ISSUE OF THE SUBSIDIARY
TO ELECTRICITY RATES WE
ARE ALL PAYING 4.3 CENTS
AND GOVERNMENT RUNNING
UP A DEBT NOT FACTORING
THAT.
AND THEN THERE IS THE
ASSET SALES WHICH HAVE
NOT OCCURRED.
SO, I MEAN IF THEY STILL
BELIEVE THIS THEIR OWN
BALANCED BUDGET
LEGISLATION, WHICH THEY
CONVENIENTLY HOEULTED
WHEN THEY NEEDED TO, AND
THEY SHOULD ALL BE
PAYING BIG TIME.

Paula says RICHARD?

Richard says I THINK WHERE HE
MISSES THE MARK IN HIS
COMMENT HE MIXES TWO
THINGS.
HE IN TAKING ON THE
DOMINION BOND RATING
SERVICE HARDLY A
PARTISAN OPPONENT OF
ANYBODY LET ALONE TORIES
THAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT
CRITICISM THE OPPOSITION
HAVE MADE.
AND TAX CUTS AND SAYS
THEY -- YOU GOT TO
WRONG.
WELL, THE DBRS IS NOT
CRITICIZING TAX CUTS
THEY ARE SAYING YOUR
NUMBERS CAN'T -- ARE
FUDGED BECAUSE YOU
PROMISED 2.3 BILLION DOLLARS IN
REVENUES WHICH YOU HAVE
NOT IDENTIFIED WHAT YOU
ARE GOING TO SELL TO DO
IT.
THE QUESTION FOR JULIA
AND FOR PREMIER EAVES IS
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO
SELL TO GET 2 BILLION DOLLARS.
THERE IS ONLY COUPLE
ASSETS IN PROVINCIAL
TREASURY THAT IF SOLD
WOULD GET THAT KIND OF
MONEY H RE LCBO.
IT IS OFF THE TABLE.
THEY ARE HYDRO ONE.
IT IS OFF THE TABLE.
THEY ARE ONTARIO POWER
GENERATION.
IT IS OFF THE TABLE.
SO, IF THOSE THREE
THINGS ARE OFF OF THE
TABLE, LAST YEAR, FOR
EXAMPLE, THEY SOLD THE
PROVINCE ONTARIO SAVINGS
AND THEY GOT 300
MILLION DOLLARS THAT WAS BIGGEST
YEAR THEY HAVE HAD.
AND THEY BUDGETED TWO
BILLION IN SO FUDGE,
FUDGE BEING FUDGE.

Paula says LET ME GET IT
STRAIGHT.
WHAT CONCERNS YOU MOST
RUTH BECAUSE CERTAINLY
THE NDP HAD A HISTORY OF
DEFICITS.

Ruth says WELL LOOK I AM NOT
SOMEBODY WHO THINKS IN
BAD ECONOMIC TIMES THAT
ONE OUGHT NOT TO RUN A
DEFICIT.
WE ARE LOOKING AT OVER
GOOD ECONOMIC TIMES LAST
YEAR.
AND THAT THEY ARE
FORECASTING WOULD BE
EVEN BETTER.
IT IS THE WAY IN WHICH
THEY HAVE CON COXED THE
BALANCE THAT IS THE
PROBLEM.
I MEAN, JUST THIS WEEK
THEY RETURNED NDP'S
PLATFORM FOR THE NEXT
ELECTION WITH
CONFIRMATION THAT OUR
FORECAST AND ESTIMATES
WERE ACCURATE AND WOULD
IN FACT PRODUCE A
BALANCED BUDGET.
AND WE WERE ONLY
FORECASTING 2.5 PERCENT GROWTH
NEXT YEAR.
WHERE AS TORIES ARE
SAYING 3 PERCENT GROWTH WHICH
WE KNOW THEY WOULDN'T
HIT.

Paula says JULIA, DO YOU
THINK -- WHERE IS THAT
YOU DISAGREE WITH THE
THINK THE OPINION OF THE
DOMINION BOND RATING
SERVICE?
I MEAN WHAT THEY ARE
SAYING IS THAT YOUR
GOVERNMENT IS COUNTING
AS A ASSET AS CASH IN
HAND, MONEY THEY HAVE
NOT YET RECEIVED BECAUSE
THEY HAVE NOT SOLD THE
ASSETS IN ORDER TO
RECEIVE THE MONEY.
DO YOU NOT BUY THAT?
DO YOU THINK RATING
SERVICE HAS GOT THAT
WRONG?

Julia says I THINK THEY MUST HAVE
IT WRONG BECAUSE I THINK
YOU KNOW I THINK IT IS
NAIVE TO THINK THE
BEGINNING OF THE YEAR THE
GOVERNMENT YOU KNOW
CREATES THEIR BUDGET AND
DOES THEIR BUSINESS
PLANNING AND THEN CLOSES
THEIR EYES AND HOPES
THAT IT WILL BALANCE.

Ruth says THEY DO CLOSING EYES
WHEN THEY CONCOCT IT.

Julia says THEY ARE WISE PEOPLE
IN MINISTRY OF FINANCE
WHO MONITOR AND
WATCH AND RECALCULATE
AND THEN ENSURE THAT THE
YEAR GOES ALONG THEY
REAL ADJUST ALL THEIR
NUMBERS TO MAKE SURE
THAT AT THE END OF THE
YEAR WE END UP IN A
BALANCED POSITION.

Richard says YOU ARE CONFUSING
HOW THE REVENUES OF THE
YEAR WITH THE PROCESS OF
SELL THESE THINGS.
THEY HAVE NOT IDENTIFIED
WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO
SELL.
TAX REVENUES WILL COME
IN AND THEY WILL GO UP
AND THAT'S IN THE --
THAT'S CALL FOR.
BUT THEY HAVE NOT
IDENTIFIED WHAT THEY
WERE GOING TO SELL WHAT
THEY WILL GET FOR IT.
AND THERE TWO REASONS.
THE FIRST IS EXACTLY OF
COURSE WHAT ARE THEY
GOING TO SELL.
LAST TIME FOR LAST
PROVINCIAL ELECTION, WE
MAY ONLY HAVE MONTH OR
SO BEFORE PROVINCIAL
ELECTION IN ORDER TO
FILL THAT GAP THEY MAY
THROW FIRE SALE ON AND
SELL SOMETHING WHICH
GETS THEM A LOT OF
REVENUE WHICH DOES NOT
GIVE TAXPAYERS OF
ONTARIO TO GOOD DEAL.

Ruth says LIKE 407.

Richard says OR THEY WILL NOT SELL
SOME THING AND BE FACED
WITH THE DEFICIT WHICH
THEY WILL HAVE TO DEAL
WITH SOME OTHER WAY.
THROUGH CUTS WHICH THEY
HAVE --.

Ruth says THE WHOLE ISSUE OF
WHETHER ONE-TIME ASSET
SALES ARE IN FACT GOOD
WAY TO BALANCE YOUR
BUDGET.
AND I MEAN THAT'S WHAT
YOU ARE -- WHAT JULIA IS
THINKING THEY OUGHT TO
BE DOING.
THE AUDITOR THINKS
DIFFERENTLY AND SO DO
DOMINION BOND RATING
SERVICE.
BY SETTING THEMSELVES UP
TO CRITICIZED BY THE
BOND RATING SERVICE AND
BY THE AUDITOR THEY ARE,
AGAIN, GETTING
THEMSELVES INTO THE
LOOP.

Paula says I HAVE FEW
SECONDS.
THE RUMOUR AROUND THE
PARK RIGHT NOW IS THAT
WE ARE COULD BE GOING TO
POLES JUNE 26.
IS THIS GOING TO CHANGE
THAT?
THEY HAVE LOST SOME
MOMENTUM HERE?

Ruth says I THINK IF I WAS A
CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST
I WOULD WORRY THAT
THINGS WERE EVEN GOING
TO BE WORST NEXT FAR I
WOULD GULL.

Richard says ARE WE BEGUN JUNE 26.
I THINK RUTH
CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST
I WOULD STOP WATCHING
THIS PROGRAM.
BUT IT DOES NOT -- IF I
WAS PREMIER, IT DOES NOT
FEEL TO ME LIKE IT IS
RIGHT TIME FOR HIM TO
CALL ELECTION BUT THERE
LOT DRUMS BEATING AND
YOU NEVER KNOW.

Paula says YES OR NO?

Julia says I THINK WE WILL BE
GOING IN JUNE.
THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS
HAD A LOT OF SUCCESSES
AND WE WILL BE GOING IN
JUNE.

Paula says I WILL TRUST JULIA ON
THAT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
BEING HERE.
RUTH GRIER AND ROBERT
MAHONEY.
WE HAVE HEARD WHAT OUR
PANELLISTS THINK ABOUT
MAGNA BUDGET BUT WHAT
ABOUT THE PUBLIC?
BACK ROOM 411 IS NEXT.

Music plays. Fast clips show scenes at the legislature.

The captions "Robert Fisher and Susanna Kelley" appear.

The title "Backroom 411" appears.

Paula says ROBERT FISHER
AND SUZANNE KELLEY IT IS
GREAT TO YOU HERE.
YOU KNOW ELSE WHAT WE
HAVE WE HAVE BEEN
TALKING ABOUT MAGNA
BUDGET WE HAPPEN TO SAY
FOURTH POLL ABOUT
THAT VERY TOPIC.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
SOME OF THE NUMBERS.
LOOK AT THIS.
DO YOU STRONGLY APPROVE
SOMEWHAT APPROVE
SOMEWHAT DIS APPROVE OR
STRONGLY DIS APPROVE OF
THE GOVERNMENT DECISION
TO ANNOUNCE DETAILED OF
ITS BUDGET AWAY FROM
LEGISLATURE ON CLOSED
CIRCUIT TIL VISION AND
ON THE INTERNET AT MAGNA
TRAINING FACILITY IN
BRAMPTON.

A poll appears on screen. It reads "Present Budget at Magna. Strongly or somewhat approve, 33 percent. Strongly or somewhat disapprove, 56 percent. DK-NA, 10 percent."

Paula says AS YOU CAN SEE, 33 PERCENT
APPROVED.
56 PERCENT DIS APPROVED.
AND 10 PERCENT DIDN'T KNOW OR
DIDN'T ANSWER.
NOW THEY LOOKED A JUST
PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES VOTERS
THEMSELVES AND WHEN THEY
WERE ASKED 41 PERCENT APPROVED,
51 PERCENT DIDN'T.
AND 8 PERCENT DIDN'T KNOW OR
DIDN'T ANSWER.
PEOPLE WERE
THEN ASKED WHETHER THE
DECISION WOULD INFLUENCE
WHO THEY VOTED FOR.
AND AMONG LIBERALS.
33 PERCENT SAID YES IT WOULD.
63 PERCENT NO, IT WOULD NOT.
AMONG NDP VOTERS 26 PERCENT
SAID YES.
AND THEY WOULD TAKE IT
INTO CONSIDERATION AND
6 PERCENT SAID THEY WOULD NOT.
BUT LOOK AT THIS.
AMONG PC VOTERS AND
MONITOR REES, ONLY 12 PERCENT
SAID PRESENTING BUDGET
OUTSIDE OF THE
LEGISLATURE WOULD CHANGE
HOW THEY VOTED AND 86 PERCENT
SAID NO IT WOULD NOT
MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.
LET ME COME BACK TO THE
EXPERTS.
ROBERT,.

Robert says YES.

Paula says DO YOU LIKE
THAT LITTLE COMPLIMENT.

Robert says YES.

Paula says WHAT DO YOU
TAKE FROM THIS?

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Robert is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight red hair. He wears glasses, a beige suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

He says IT PUTS TO REST THE
TORY VIEWS THAT WAS
YOUTH POTERS AND
POLITICAL SCIENTIST THAT
REALLY CARED ABOUT THIS.
I THINK THAT MANY PEOPLE
IN PUBLIC YOU KNOW WERE
CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.
AND THEY MAY NOT
UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE OF
CONTEMPT WHICH WE WILL
TALK ABOUT OR THE
PROCESS BUT THERE
ARROGANCE FACTOR THAT
HELPS DEFEAT GOVERNMENT
AND I THINK THIS SOFT
PLAYS INTO THAT.

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

Susanna is in her mid-forties, with chin length slightly wavy blond hair with bangs. She wears a satin lilac skirt suit, a striped top and a delicate necklace.

She says WELL I WAS ACTUALLY
VERY INTERESTED IN ONE
NUMBER AND THAT WAS THAT
ALTHOUGH 51 PERCENT OF TORIES
DIS DEAL OF APPROVED OF
IT 86 PERCENT OF THOSE VOTERS
IT WOULD NOT CHANGE
THEIR MIND AND THE OTHER
NUMBERS OF THE OTHER
PARTY VOTERS SUPPORTING
OTHER PARTIES,
OVERWHELMINGLY THIS IS
NOT GOING TO CHANGE
THEIR MIND IN WHO THEY
ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR
AND WE HEARD A LOT OF
EVIDENCE I HEARD IT
MYSELF, WE GOT LOTS OF
E-MAILS FROM TORY WHO
SAID YOU KNOW WE ARE NOT
GOING VOTE STORY BEGIN
BECAUSE OF THIS.
BUT QUESTIONS WHAT?
WHEN THEY DID POLL ON TO
THREE WEEKS LATER, 86 PERCENT
ARE SAYING DOES NOT
REALLY MATTER.

Robert says SOME TIMES PEOPLE
DON'T TELL THE TRUTH TO
POLLSTERS.

Susanna says BUT 86 PERCENT.

Robert says A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN
LIE.

Paula says WHAT ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED TODAY?
THE TORIES WERE HOPING
THIS ISSUE WAS PUT TO
REST AND THEN WE HAVE
GARY CARR THE SPEAKER OF
THE HOUSE DECLARING THAT
THE ACTION THEY TOOK IN
FACT WAS IN CONTEMPT OF THE
LEGISLATURE.
ROBERT DO THIS GIVE THE
ISSUE MORE LEGS?
COULD IT BE MORE DAMAGING
NOW?

Robert says I THINK IT CONTINUES
SOMETHING.
I MEAN THIS WILL BE
DEBATE THE AGAIN ON
MONDAY AND THIS
RESOLUTION FROM THE
LIBERAL SEAN CONWAY.
I THINK IT ALSO UPSETS
THE APPLE CART IN TERMS
OF PREPARE FOR THE NEXT
ELECTION.
THIS WAS ISSUE I THINK
THE TORIES THOUGHT WAS
ON THE BACK BURNER
SUDDENLY IT IS ON THE
FRONT AND THEY HAVE
STORY TO THANK FOR IT.

Susanna says I THINK THEY WERE
THINK THAT THEY WERE
GOING TO GET A BUMP IN
THE POLLS FROM THE WAY
THEY HANDLED S.A.R.S
THAT TONY CAME OUT
LOOKING LIKE HE HAD MANAGED
ISSUE VERY WELL.
AND THAT THE THRONE
SPEECH HAD BEEN FAIRLY
POSITIVE.
RECEIVED IN AND THEY
WERE HOPING FOR A BUMP
IN THE POLLS SO THAT
THEY COULD THEN CLOSE
THE GAP WITH THE
LIBERALS AND CALL
ELECTION FOR JUNE THE
26TH WIT DATE EVERYBODY
IS HEARING.
AND I THINK THAT IS
DEFINITELY THE DATE THEY
ARE PREPARING FOR.
BUT, IT WILL BE
INTERESTING TO SEE NOW,
A BIT OF BAD NEWS FOR
THEM AGAIN.
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW GARY
CARR HAS MADE THIS
RULING.
AND THEY HAVE GOT AT
LEAST TWO AND MAYBE MORE
DAYS OF DEBATE ON A BAD
NEWS THING FOR THEM.
SO.

Robert says HE WAS SAYING IT IS
SEEMS FOR THE TORIES
THEY STEPPED FROM ONE
COW PIE TO ANOTHER.
THIS WAS A QUOTE.

Susanna says HOW ELEGANT.

Robert says WELL IT IS PROBABLY
INELEGANT BUT IT IS
DESCRIPTION I THINK OF
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE
TORIES RIGHT NOW.
THEY SEEM TO GET
MOMENTUM IN SOMETHING
AND THEN I THINK
GENERALLY THERE WAS
ACCOMMODATION FOR TONY
ON S.A.R.S PROBABLY NOT
PREMIER THEY START TO
MAKE PROGRESS AND THEY
START HAND OUT CHECKS
PEOPLE ARE VERY HAPPY.
AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN
WHAM THEY RUN INTO BRICK
WALL AGAIN.

Paula says BUT PART OF
THE DEBATE THAT'S GOING
INSIDE OF THE
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY RIGHT NOW OF
COURSE IS WHEN TO HAVE
THE NEXT ELECTION.
WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO
BE ABLE TO WIN IT.
AND YOU KNOW WE ARE
MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT
HERE.
THE FACT THAT BUDGET
SEEMED TO YOU KNOW DREW.
AND I AGREE WITH SUZANNE
WE GOT A LOT OF E-MAIL
AND A LOT OF EVIDENCE
THAT THIS WAS BIG DEAL.
AS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT,
THE POLL IS NOT FINDING
THAT SO WHEN YOU ARE
HEARING TORIES NOW
TALKING ABOUT GOING
EARLIER GOING IN JUNE,
DOES IT MAKE SOME SENSE
TO YOU?

Susanna says WELL, I THINK THERE
IS BIG DEBATE INTERNALLY
WITHIN PARTY AND EVEN
WITHIN THE CAMPAIGN TEAM
AS TO WHETHER TO GO NOW
OR NOT.
WHAT I AM FINDING IS
THERE IS A BIG FACTION
THAT IS SAYING IT IS NOT
GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.
AND WE DON'T HAVE
ANYTHING REALLY TO
IMPLEMENT SO, WE MIGHT
AS WELL GO NOW.
BECAUSE IT MIGHT GET
WORSE.
THERE IS ANOTHER FACTION
THAT SAYS, THAT IT IS
BETTER TO WAIT FOR THE
FALL.
THAT LOT OF LIBERALS
AND -- AS WELL AS TORIES
HAVE RENTED CAMPAIGN
OFFICE BUT THE TORIES
HAVE A LOT MORE MONEY IN
THEIR RIDE AGENT
ASSOCIATION BANK
ACCOUNTS THAN THE
LIBERALS.
AND THEY WOULD NOT MIND
YOU KNOW SEEING THE
LIBERALS HAVE TO SPEND
SOME MONEY OVER THE
SUMMER.
ON THAT.

Robert says BUT SO MUCH TO DO.
THEY HAVE TO DEFINE WHO
ERNIE EVES IS.
HOW WILL THEY RUN HIM?
WHAT'S THE PLATFORM?
I MEAN YOU CAN'T RUN
SIMPLY ON ELECTION BY
SAYING I BEEN AROUND
HERE FOR LONG TIME AND I
AM A GOOD LEADEER.
AND THE GUY ACROSS THE
WAY BY THE WAY WINK,
WINK DALTON MCGUINTY
CAN'T TRUST HIM WITH OUR
BUDGET.
HE WILL RUN DEFICIT.
YOU NEED ISSUES YOU NEED
SOMETHING TO RUN ON AND
YOU HAVE TO BE
ORGANIZED.
MY SENSE IS PERHAPS AS
HERS AS WELL THEY ARE
NOT READY FOR EARLY
ELECTION.
THEY NEED TO WAIT.

Susanna says I HEARD A INTERESTING
STORY BECAUSE THERE IS A
MYTH ABOUT THE 1995
ELECTION AND HOW THEY
WERE SO READY BECAUSE
THEY PUT THEIR CAMPAIGN
PLATFORM OUT A YEAR
AHEAD OF TIME AND IN
1994.
AND WHAT A GREAT P.R.
COUPE THIS WAS.
ACTUALLY HERD VERY
INTERESTING STORY ABOUT
THAT THIS WEEK.
THAT THIS WAS MISTAKE.
THEY THOUGHT BOB RAY
WOULD CALL THE ELECTION.
WHIZ KIDS THOUGHT HE
WOULD FOUR YEARS INTO
HIS MANDATE.
INSTEAD HE WAITED FIVE
AND THEY PRINTED
MILLIONS OF COPIES OF
THE CSR AND NEARLY
BANKRUPT THE PARTY.
SO YOU KNOW SOME OF
THINKS WHIZ KIDS MIGHT
REMEMBER THAT AND THINK,
WELL, WE WOULD NOT MIND
IF LIBERALS CONTINUE
SPENDING MONEY AND MAYBE
WE COULD GO IN FALL.

Paula says ROBERT BROUGHT UP
INTERESTING POINT WHEN
ULTIMATELY ONTARIO GOES
TO THE POLLS THEY GOING
TO HAVE MAKE THE
DECISION BASED UPON THE
NAMES ON THAT BALLOT.

Robert says WHO DO YOU TRUST?

Paula says YOU KNOW WHAT WE
ASKED POTENTIAL VOTERS
ABOUT BOTH PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE LEADER
ERNIE EVES AND THE
LIBERAL LEADER DALTON
MCGUINTY.
THEY BOTH HAVE BEEN
ACCUSED OF CHANGING
THEIR POSITIONS FLIP
FLOPPING WE CALL IT ON
THINGS LIKE HYDRO
DEREGULATION AND SO WE
ASKED PEOPLE WHAT THEY
THOUGHT THE REASON
BEHIND THOSE CHANGES
WERE.

Data from a poll appears on screen with the caption "Environics polled 1,000 Ontarians from April 10 to 25th. The margin of error is plus or minus 3 percent 19 times out of 20."

Paula reads the data.

She says AND WHEN IT COMES TO
MISTER EAVES, THE CURRENT
PREMIER 25 PERCENT SAID HE
CHANGED POSITIONS
BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT
WAS BEST INTEREST OF
ONTARIANS.
BUT THE MAJORITY 62 PERCENT
FELT IT WAS TO WIN THE
NEXT ELECTION.
10 PERCENT DIDN'T KNOW.
WHEN IT CAME TO LIBERAL
LEADER DALTON MCGUINTY.
26 PERCENT SAID IT WAS TO ACT
IN BEST INTERESTS OF
ONTARIANS AND 54 PERCENT THAT'S
THE MAJORITY BUT NOT
QUITE AS BIG SAID IT WAS
TO WIN NEXT ELECTION.
1 PERCENT DIDN'T KNOW OR DIDN'T
ANSWER AND OF COURSE I
WILL TELL YOU THAT THE
POLLED 1,000 ONTARIANS
FROM APRIL 10 TO 25TH
MARGIN OF ERROR PLUS OR

MINUS 3 PERCENT.19 TIMES OUT OF 20.
ROBERT, LOOKING AT THOSE
NUMBERS IF I
WERE POLITICIAN I WOULD
NOT THRILLED TO SEE
THOSE.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU
ABOUT HOW VOTERS FEEL
WHEN THEY GO AND PICK A
NEW LEADER.

Robert says YOU HAVE MISTER EAVES
AND HIS EXPERIENCE.
YOU HAVE A RELATIVE
UNKNOWN IN DALTON
MCGUINTY.
LET'S SAY.
PEOPLE DON'T SEE TRUST
EITHER ONE OF THEM.
YOU MAY HAVE PEOPLE
GETTING INTO VOTING
BOOTH AND START TO SHAKE
AS THEIR HAND MOVES BACK
TO DALTON MCGUINTY NAME
AND THEN GOES BACK TO
EAVES.

Susanna says WELL I JUST THINK --
IT IS SIGN OF HOW
POLITICIANS IN GENERAL
ARE SO DISTRUSTED.
AND I DON'T THINK THE
NUMBERS ARE -- THE
DIFFERENCE THAT GREAT
THAT EITHER ONE OF THEM
GOING TO GET ADVANTAGE
OUT OF THAT.
IT IS JUST SAY TO ME
THAT VOTERS DON'T TRUST
EITHER OF THEM.

Paula says YOU HAVE BOTH
BEEN IN THE BUSINESS A
REALLY LONG TIME WHAT
ARE YOUR INSTINCTS ABOUT WHEN WE MAY
ACTUALLY GO POLLS WHAT
YOU SEE AS MAYBE THE
MAJOR OBSTACLE TO BOTH
DATES?

Susanna says I THINK THAT THE -- I
AM NOT READY TO CALL BUT
I DON'T THINK DECISION
HAS BEEN MADE.
I DON'T BELIEVE THIS
THEORY AND I NEVER HAVE
THAT WELL THE TRAIN HAS
LEFT THE STATION.
THEY ARE ALL GETTING
READY AND YOU KNOW THE
PREMIER JUST CAN'T PULL
IT BACK.
QUESTION PULL IT BACK
ANY TIME HE WANTS.
HE SAYS STAND DOWN AND
THEY STAND DOWN.

Paula says WHEN SHOULD THE TORIES GO?

Robert says I CAN'T GIVE ADVICE
TO THE PREMIER.
NOT ME.
I MEAN, MY EXPERIENCE
NOTWITHSTANDING.
I THINK IT IS 50-50
WHETHER THEY GO OR WAIT.
I THINK THAT AS SHE
POINTED OUT THERE
DIVISION BETWEEN CAUCUS
CABINET AND PEOPLE
RUNNING CAMPAIGN.
ULTIMATELY ERNIE EVES
GOT PULL THE ELECTION
TOGETHER AND CALL IT AT
TIME WHEN HE THINKS HE
CAN WIN AND EVERYTHING
IS IN PLACE AND NOT
EVERYTHING IN PLACE YET.

Susanna says AND I HEARD SOMEONE
WHO I TRUST AS SOURCE A
WEEK AGO TELL ME IT IS
ONLY 30 TO 40 PERCENT STILL
THAT THEY ARE GOING IN
THE SPRING.

Paula says WELL YOU WILL
COME ON BACK TO TELL US
ABOUT THAT.
ROBERT FISHER AND
SUZANNE KELLEY THANK YOU
FOR JOINING US TODAY.
AND THAT'S OUR SHOW FOR
THIS WEEK.
I AM PAULA TODD JOIN US
AGAIN NEXT TIME FOR
ANOTHER EDITION OF
"FOURTH READING."

Music plays as the end credits roll.

Queen’s Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

Editor, Bill Grier.

CEP LOCAL 72m.

Canadian Media Guild.

TNG Canada CWA.

A production of TVOntario.

Copyright. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 2003.

Watch: In Contempt?