Transcript: Proportional Representation | Apr 06, 2003

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a gavel banging against a desk, and MPPs voting in the Legislature.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON "4TH
READING."

Jack Murray says WE HAVE TO ENSURE THAT
PEOPLE HAVE A VOICE.

Steve says POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
IS IT TIME TO CHANGE THE WAY WE
CHOOSE OUR POLITICIANS?

Fast clip show election day images.

Steve Paikin sits in the studio with 4 guests.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with short curly brown hair. He wears an off-white shirt and a moss green suit.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THIS IS "4TH READING" FOR THIS
WEEK.
DO YOU THINK IT'S FAIR THAT IN
'95, THE HARRIS TORIES WON 65 PERCENT
OF THE SEATS ALTHOUGH THEY ONLY
CAPTURED 45 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL
VOTES?
HOW ABOUT QUEBEC IN '99, THE LIBERALS GOT 44 PERCENT OF
THE VOTES AND THE PARTI
QUEBECOIS GOT 33 PERCENT AND THE PQ
WON A BIG MANTLE GOVERNMENT.
OR FINALLY, HOW ABOUT KIM
CAMPBELL'S TORIES.
TWO MILLION VOTES AND ONLY TWO
SEATS.
MANY IN ONTARIO THINK THE
SYSTEM WE USE TO ELECT OUR
GOVERNMENTS IS BROKEN.
THEY'RE DETERMINED TO FIX IT.

A clip rolls with the caption "Dalton McGuinty. Ontario Liberal Leader."

Dalton is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with very short straight brown hair. He wears a pale blue shirt and a polka dotted brown tie.

He says THOUGHTFUL ONTARIANS ARE
ASKING IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
ABOUT THIS DISCREPANCIES
BETWEEN THE PERCENTAGE OF THE
VOTE THAT YOU GET AS A PARTY
AND THE PERCENTAGE OF THE SEATS
THAT YOU OBTAIN INSIDE YOUR
LEGISLATURE.

Steve says FEDERAL AND
PROVINCIAL ELECTION ARE DECIDED
BY THE FIRST PAST THE POST
SYSTEM.
WHOEVER WINS THE MOST VOTES IN
A RIDING WINS THE SEATS.
THIS MEANS UNLESS YOU BACK THE
WINNER, YOUR VOTE IS DISCARDED,
SOME SAY WASTED.

The caption changes to "Wayne Smith. Fairvote Canada."

Wayne is in his late forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair. He wears glasses, a blue shirt and a patterned multi-coloured tie.

He says TYPICALLY ABOUT 40 PERCENT OF THE
US VOTE FOR SOMEBODY WHO GETS
RECOLLECTED-- ELECTED.
SO THOSE PEOPLE GET THE
REPRESENTATIVE THEY CHOSE.
THE OTHER 60 PERCENT OF US GET NOTHING
FOR THE VOTE.

Steve says CRITICS SAY IT
DAMAGES DEMOCRACY IN ONTARIO.

Dalton says WE KNOW WHAT THIS STATUS QUO
IS BRINGING US RIGHT NOW.
IT'S ACTS A STRONG DETERRENT TO
VOTING.

The caption changes to "Jack Murray. NDP PR Task Force."

Jack is in his mid-sixties, clean-shaven and with short wavy graying hair. He wears a tweed gray suit, striped shirt, patterned tie and a pair of glasses.

He says WE USED TO BE VERY PROUD
HERE.
YOU KNOW, 80 PERCENT OF OUR PEOPLE
VOTED COMPARED TO SOME OTHER
COUNTRIES.
CLOSE BY.
AND NOW, WHAT?
WE'RE GETTING DOWN IN THE 60'S.
WHICH MEANS THAT MORE AND MORE
PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT MY VOTE
DOESN'T COUNT.
I DON'T HAVE A VOICE.

Steve says SOME SAY TURNING TO
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION OR
PR IS ONE WAY TO FIX THE
SYSTEM.

Wayne says PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
IS SIMPLY THE IDEA THAT IF A
PARTY GETS 40 PERCENT OF THE VOTES,
THEY SHOULD GET 40 PERCENT OF THE
SEATS IN PARLIAMENT.
23 THEY GET 10 PERCENT OF THE VOTES,
GET 10 PERCENT OF THE SEATS.

Steve says BOTH THE ONTARIO
LIBERAL AND NEW DEMOCRATIC
PARTIES ELECTION PLATFORMS
INCLUDE A PROMISE TO HOLD A
REFERENDUM ON WHETHER VOTERS
WANTS TO KEEP FIRST PAST THE
POST OR MOVE TO PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.
ANALYSTS SAY THE POLITICAL
LANDSCAPE UNDER PR WOULD CHANGE
DRAMATICALLY.

The caption changes to "Graham White. University of Toronto."

Graham is in is mid-fifties, with short straight receding white hair and a beard. He wears a pale blue shirt and a patterned tie.

He says YOU WOULD VERY LIKELY END UP
WITH A MINORITY GOVERNMENT.
THAT TO ME WOULD BE THE
FUNDAMENTAL, UM, DIFFERENCE.
AND-- AND, UM, AND THE REASON
YOU HAD A MINORITY GOVERNMENT
IS THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE VOTED
FOR.

Steve says IN FACT, THE VAST
MAJORITY OF DEMOCRACIES AROUND
THE WORLD HAVE EMBRACED SOME
FORM OF P.R.
MOST RECENTLY, US A TRAIL AND
NEW ZEALAND.

Graham says THERE WAS CONCERN WHEN NEW
ZEALAND RECENTLY WENT TO P.R.
MIGHT THIS NOT MEAN INSTABLE?
BUT, IN FACT, IT'S WORKED OUT
PRETTY WELL.
NO FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN NEW
ZEALAND POLITICS.
PEOPLE ARE SATISFIED AND INDEED
PLEASED.

Steve says WHETHER PR OR ANOTHER
FORM OF DEMOCRACY EVOLVE INSIDE
ONTARIO, MANY SAY OUR SYSTEM
NEEDS AN OVERHAUL, AND SOON.

Jack says AS WE GO ON, UM, YOU CANS
SHUT PEOPLE OUT AND SAY THIS IS
A REASONABLE SYSTEM IF PEOPLE
SAY, MY VOTE DOESN'T COUNT.

Steve says IS IT TIME TO CHANGE
THE WAY WE PICK OUR GOVERNMENTS
OR COULD CHANGING THE SYSTEM
MAKE THINGS WORSE?
LET'S FIND OUT FROM PROFESSOR
DESMOND MORTON FROM MCGILL
UNIVERSITY FROM MONTREAL.
HERE, MICHAEL BRYANT, AN MPP IN
ST. PAUL'S THE ONTARIO LIBERAL
PARTY MAIN CHAMPION OF
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.
OVER ON THE OTHER SIDE, FORMER
MPP CABINET MINISTER, RUTH
GRIER.
AND RICHARD MAHONEY.
THIS WEEK, JOHN MATHESON OF THE
GOVERNMENT RELATIONS FIRM
STRATEGY CORPS.
MICHAEL, WHAT'S SO BAD ABOUT
FIRST PAST THE POST?

The caption changes to "Michael Bryant MPP. Liberal, Saint Paul’s."

Michael is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy red hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt and a checker tie.

Michael says WELL, WE DON'T HAVE A
REPRESENTATIVE LEGISLATURE.
AND WE DON'T HAVE A RESPONSIBLE
GOVERNMENT.
THE PROBLEM IS TWO-FOLD.
IT IS THAT THE EXECUTIVE IS NOT
REALLY ACCOUNTABLE TO THE
LEGISLATURE.
THE EXECUTIVE IS REALLY
ACCOUNTABLE TO ITSELF.
WE MANTLE GOVERNMENTS THAT, IN
FACT, HAVE-- MAJORITY
GOVERNMENTS THAT, IN FACT, HAVE
MINORITY SUPPORT.
THAT HAS DEMOCRATIC PROBLEMS IN
TERMS OF PEOPLE'S CONFIDENCE.
BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE
TOTAL ABSENCE OF CHECKS AND
BALANCE INSIDE OUR CURRENT
PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM.
MINORITY GOVERNMENTS,
SO-CALLED, WOULD ENSURE AMONGST
OTHER THINGS THAT THE CABINET
HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE
LEGISLATURE, AND IN TURN IT,
WILL MEAN THAT OUR LEGISLATURE
IS MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE
COMMUNITY.

Steve says LET'S PICK UP ON
THAT.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK OUR
DIRECTOR TO BRING UP THE FIRST
OF A COUPLE OF GRAPHICS WE'LL
SHOW TONIGHT ON THIS.
THESE ARE THE '99 ONTARIO
ELECTION RESULTS DURING WHICH
YOU WERE ELECTED AND WE'LL SHOW
THE PARTY ON THE LEFT COLUMN,
THE PERCENTAGE OF THE VOTES IN
THE MIDDLE.
THE PERCENTAGE OF SEATS.
THOSE VOTES DELIVERED OVER
THERE ON THE RIGHT.
PC'S GOT 45 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL VOTES
BUT 57 PERCENT OF THE SEATS IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
LIBERALS GOT 40 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL
VOTES.
THAT WAS ONLY GOOD FOR 34 PERCENT OF
THE SEATS IN THE LEGISLATURE.
LOOK WHAT HAPPENS TO THE NDP'S
VOTE.
THE SYSTEM WE HAVE RIGHT NOW,
REALLY DOES TREAT THIRD PLACE
PARTIES VERY HARSHLY.
THEY GOT 12.5 PERCENT ROUGHLY OF THE
TOTAL VOTES AND GOOD FOR ONLY
8 PERCENT OF THE SEATS IN THE
LEGISLATURE. HAVING SAID THAT, MICHAEL, YOU
GOT ELECTED THIS WAY.
HOW CAN YOU-- CAN YOU BE
OPPOSED BY A SYSTEM THAT YOU
DID WELL BY?

Michael says SURE.
I THINK THAT SOMETIMES WE NEED
TO BE WILLING TO TAKE CHANCE
THAT IS WE DO OURSELVES IN.
FOR A BETTER SYSTEM.
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, IT'S NOT WORKING.
I MEAN, OPPOSITION PARTIES BY
AND LARGE ARE BEING REDUCED
PRIMARILY NOT TO CONTRIBUTING
TO THE BUSINESS OF GOVERNMENT.
WE'RE REALLY BEING REDUCE TODAY
A LARGE DEGREE TO ACTING LIKE
RACK PACKERS AND RESPONDING
AFTER THE FACT.
SO MPP'S AREN'T BEING USED AND
THE BACK BENCH ISN'T BEING USED
ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE EITHER.
I THINK THAT IT WILL BE MORE
REPRESENTATIVE AND MORE CHECKS
AND BALANCES AND IT WILL WORK
BETTER.
OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM IS
WORKING SO ROUGHLY AND POORLY
RIGHT NOW AND PEOPLE HAVE SO
LITTLE CONFIDENCE THAT WE NEED
A CPR FOR PEOPLE TO GET MORE
ENGAGED IN THE MOST IMPORTANT
INSTITUTION IN THEIR DAY-TO-DAY
LIVES, THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says DESMOND MORTON, HAS THE
WAY WE CURRENTLY ELECT
POLITICIANS , HAS IT RUN ITS
COURSE IN YOUR VIEW?

A split screen shows Steve to the left and Desmond to the right with the caption "Montreal."

The caption changes to "Desmond Morton. McGill University."

Desmond is in his mid-fifties, with short receding wavy gray hair and a moustache. He wears a gray suit, white shirt, burgundy tie and a pair of glasses.

He says I DON'T KNOW.
IF THOSE IN THIS ONTARIO ARE
DISSEATED WITH THE GOVERNMENT,
THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT.
AND THE FIRST PAST THE POST
SYSTEM ALLOWS, AS YOU'VE
INDICATED, A FASTER CHANGE WITH
FEWER VOTES THAN OTHERWISE.
AND THE CANADIAN EXPERIENCE IS
THAT PEOPLE ARE DESPERATELY
DISSATISFIED.
THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, KIM CAMPBELL
AND THE TORIES GOT VIRTUALLY
SHUTOUT IN '93.
THERE WAS A NATIONAL WAVE OF
DESPAIR WITH THE TORIES.
THEY WENT.
AND IN QUEBEC, I THINK IT'S
FAIR TO SAY THAT THE PARTI
QUEBECOIS WAS ABLE TO TO WIN
BECAUSE IT HAS MORE SUPPORT
ACROSS MORE OF THE PROVINCE
THAN THE LIBERALS, WHO HAVE
CONCENTRATED THEIR SUPPORT BY
AND LARGE IN-- IN
ENGLISH-SPEAKING AND-- AND PRO
FEDERALIST AREAS OF MONTREAL.
SO THAT THE QUEBEC GOVERNMENT
OF TODAY, WHICH I DON'T SUPPORT
NECESSARILY, IS MORE
REPRESENTATIVE OF THIS PROVINCE
IN ITS PRESENTS STRUCTURE,
GIVEN WHATEVER THE ELECTION ON
THE 14TH MAY DO TO IT.
THAN IF THE LIBERALS HAD WON A
VERY NARROW MARGIN IN 1998.
SO I THINK THAT-- THAT FIRST
PAST THE POST IS IN PRACTICE
WORKING.
WHAT SINCE WORKING, OBVIOUSLY,
IS THAT THE OPPOSITION PARTY IN
ONTARIO DOESN'T SEEM TO BE VERY
EFFECTIVE SO FAR.
I HOPE IT DOES BETTER IN THE
NEXT ELECTION.
AND THE GOVERNMENT SEEMS TO BE
MORE POPULAR THAN I THINK IT
SHOULD BE.

Steve says WE'LL SAVE THAT
DEBATE FOR ANOTHER SHOW.

Desmond says I UNDERSTAND.
BUT IT REELS TO THIS.
BECAUSE DISCONTENT IS OBVIOUS
AMONG OPPOSITION PARTIES.

Steve says THE COMPLAINT WE HEAR
IS IF YOU DIDN'T VOTE FOR THE
WINNER, YOUR VOTE DIDN'T REALLY
COUNT S THAT FAIR TO SAY?

Desmond says YES, IT IS MISLEADING.
BECAUSE, IN FACT, THE CHANGE OF
POLITICS IN CANADA IN THE
1990'S ISN'T A CHANGE OF THE
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT.
THEY'VE-- WE KNOW THE LIBERALS
VERY WELL.
BUT THEIR RIGHT WING SWING IN
THE '90'S, PARTLY DUE TO A
TORY DEFICIT AND PARTLY DUE
TO THE EMERGENCY OF THE
ALLIANCE.
THERE'S BEEN-- TO THE
EMERGENCE OF THE ALLIANCE.
THERE'S BEEN A RIGHT WING SWING
IN THE PROVINCE OF ALBERTA AND
BRITISH COLUMBIA AND ONTARIO,
AND PERHAPS OTHERS, BECAUSE OF
THE OPPOSITION.
NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF THE
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says JOHN, LET ME BRING YOU
IN AT THIS POINT.
I CHECKED WITH THE ELECTIONS
ONTARIO WEBSITE.
AND THERE ARE 10 3M PP'S IN THE
ONTARIO LEGISLATURE.
AND 41 OF THEM-- 103 MPP'S IN
THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE AND 41
OF THEM GOT ELECTED WITHOUT
GETTING HALF OF THE VOTES IN
THEIR OWN PARTICULAR
CONSTITUENCY.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE FLOOR OF THE
LEGISLATURE TODAY, 40 PERCENT OF THE
MPP'S, MORE PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT
THEM THERE THAN DID.
IS THAT A PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "John Matheson. Strategycorp."

John is in his late thirties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair with bangs. He wears glasses, black suit and tie and a white shirt.

He says YOU KNOW, THE THING ABOUT AN
ELECTION IS THAT IT'S DESIGNED
TO CHOOSE A GOVERNMENT.
IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO BE AN
OPINION POLL.
AND THE POINT ABOUT IT IS THAT
YOU HAVE TO-- AT THE END OF THE
DAY, COME UP W# A PLATFORM THAT
CAN, ON A-- WITH A PLATFORM
THAT ON A BROAD BASIS CAN
ATTRACT A LOT 6 PEOPLE AND GIVE
YOU A BROAD ABILITIES TO GOVERN
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
WHAT OUR SYSTEM DOES IS IT
PUNISHES PEOPLE WHO ARE NARROW
ON THE OUTLOOK, PUNISHES
PARTIES THAT GOES SINGLE ISSUE
AND REWARD THEM THAT TRY TO GO
BROADER.
AND THE RESULT OF IT IS YOU GET
A GOVERNMENT.
I THINK IT'S A WIT OF-- A BIT
OF A BLUNT INSTRUMENT.
BUT-- I THINK IT'S THE BEST
INSTRUMENT BECAUSE IT BRINGS SOMETHING
THAT'S WORK ABLE AND SHOWS
LEADERSHIP OVER TIME AND THAT'S
WHY WE SHOULDN'T BE CONCERNED
ABOUT IT.
I ADMIT, IF IT WAS JUST ABOUT
NUMBERS, IT'S NOT THE MOST
PRECISE TOOL.
NOT JUST ABOUT NUMBERS.

Steve says RUTH?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth is in her sixties, with short straight white hair. She wears glasses, a white blouse, a burgundy jacket and a brooch.

Ruth says IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT NUMBERS.
IT'S ABOUT VARIOUS VIEWS AND
OPINIONS WITHIN SOCIETY.
BEING REPRESENTED IN-- IN THE
LEGISLATURES OF SOCIETY.
THAT'S WHAT THE FIRST PAST THE
POST SYSTEM DOES NOT DO.
AND-- AND WHILE JOHN SAYS THAT
THE PURPOSE IS TO ELECT A
GOVERNMENT, THERE ARE MANY, AND
I WOULD BE ONE, WHO WOULD ARGUE
THAT WE'VE HAD GOOD GOVERNMENT
IN THIS PROVINCE WHEN THERE
WAS, IN FACT , A MINORITY
GOVERNMENT.
HOLDING THAT GOVERNMENT TO
ACCOUNT.
I WOULDN'T GO AS FAR AS MICHAEL
AND SAY THAT PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION WOULD TOTALLY
CHANGE HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS.
BUT WHAT HE WOULD DO WOULD MORE
ACCURATELY REFLECT THE VIEWS OF
THE PEOPLE OF THE PROVINCE AS--
REFLECT THE VIEWS OF THE PEOPLE
OF THE PROVINCE AS REFLECTED IN
THE VOTE.
AND THAT'S WHY IT'S A SYSTEM
THAT NEW DEMOCRATS SUPPORT.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt and patterned yellow tie.

Richard says IN RESPONSE TO RUTH.
FIRST OF ALL, IT MIGHT, IT
MIGHT MORE ACCURATELY REFLECT
WHAT THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
SUPPORT.
BUT IT MIGHT NOT.
IN RESPONSE TO JOHN, OUR SYSTEM
ISN'T DESIGNED TO ELECT A
GOVERNMENT.
THAT'S NOT WHAT-- OUR SYSTEM IS
DESIGNED IS BASED ON THE
BRITISH WESTMINSTER TRADITION.
DESIGNED TO ELECT MEMBERS TO
THE LEGISLATURE.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT HOW
WE'VE ELECTED GOVERNMENTS.
BUT THE ORIGINAL THOUGHT WHAT
IS THAT YOU ELECT MEMBERS OF
THE LEGISLATURE WHO IN THEIR
WISDOM WOULD CHOOSE THE
LEADERSHIP IN CAB KNELT.
SO THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE
RIGHT NOW-- CABINET.
SO THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE
RIGHT NOW COMES FROM 400 YEARS
AGO ON ON ALAND OFF THE COAST
OF EUROPE.
MAY NOT BE THE RIGHT SYSTEM.
SECOND, WHAT'S THE EVIDENCE OF
THAT?
I GUESS THAT WE'RE DOWN TO 58 PERCENT
TURN OUT RATES IN VOTING IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO IN THE LAST
ELECTION SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS
SOMETHING WRONG.
THE SYSTEM IS WELL BROKEN.
UM, WHETHER PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION AND WHAT IS THE
GUYS TO SECURE FOR THAT, I'M
NOT SURE.
BUT I THINK PROBABLY BRINGING
IN CONSULTING CITIZENS AS
DALTON MCGUINTY AT THIS HAS
CALLED FOR IS A REFERENDUM TO
SEE WHETHER OR NOT THIS WORKS.
LET'S ASK PEOPLE WHEN THEY THINK
IF
DEMOCRACY'S WORKING.

Steve says NOW HERE'S A GRAPHIC.
LET'S CALL THESE THE FEEBLE
FOUR.
THESE FOUR MEMBERS OF THE
ONTARIO LEGISLATURE WERE ELECTED
WITH THE SMALLEST PERCENTAGE OF
THE TOTAL VOTE-- WERE ELECTED
WITH THE SMALLEST PERCENTAGE OF
TOTAL VOTE IN THEIR
CONSTITUENCY.

A chart appears on screen with the following data: George Smitherman. (Toronto Centre-Rosedale), 39 percent; Frank Mizzilli (London-Fanshawe), 38.5 percent; Dave Christopherson (Hamilton West), 38 percent and Richard Patten (Ottawa Centre), 38 percent."

Steve says GEORGE SMITHERMAN, 61 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE IN THE RIDING VOTED
AGAINST HIM.
HE'S AT QUEEN'S PARK.
FRANK MAZZILLI WITH 38.5 PERCENT.
WAY MORE PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST
THEM THAN VOTED FOR THEM.
AND YET THEY'RE THERE.
NOW, MY QUESTION FOR YOU,
MICHAEL IS, HOW MUCH LEGITIMACY
DO YOU THINK THESE MPP'S HAVE
IN THE EYES OF THE ELECTORATE
WHICH OVERWHELMING DIDN'T WANT
THEM?

Michael says THIS IS THE ISSUE OF
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.
THOSE FOUR PEOPLE COULD BE
ELECTED UNDER SOME FORM OF
MIXED PROPORTIONAL AND--

Steve says I'M NOT PICKING ON
THEM.
BUT I'M MAKING A POINT.

Michael says YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT FEEL
THEY HAVE MORE OF A MANDATE IF,
IN FACT, THROUGH EITHER
ALTERNATIVE BALLOTING OR
THROUGH SOME KIND OF
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION YOU
HAD A SYSTEM WHERE BY IT WAS
MORE REFLECTIVE.
THAT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN
YOU HAVE A THREE-PARTY
POLITICAL SYSTEM.
YOU'RE GOING TO GET THESE KIND
OF RESULTS.
BUT SURE, I MEAN, THIS IS THE
ISSUE.
IS YOU HAVE GOVERNMENTS IN
PLACE, MAJORITY GOVERNMENT
INSIDE PLACE THAT YOU-- THAT DO
NOT HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE
MAJORITY PEOPLE.
MANY MPP'S.
A MANTLE OF MPP'S IN THE CASE
OF SOME LEGISLATURE THAT IS
DON'T HAVE THE MAJORITY SUPPORT
OF THE RIDING.
SO-- SO IN THAT SENSE HOW CAN
CAN YOU SAY IT'S REPRESENTATIVE
REPRESENTATIVE-- OF THE PEOPLE?
AND CREATES MORE OF A MALAISE.
I AGREE THERE'S NOBODY
CHOMPING AT THE BIT FOR THESE
CHANGES-- FOR THESE CHANGES.
BUT THE PROBLEM IS THE LACK OF
CONFIDENCE.
THIS-- YOU KNOW, THE HOPE IS
AMONGST-- IS THAT THIS WILL
BOLSTER CONFIDENCE IN PEOPLE.

Steve says DESMOND, HOW
REPRESENTATIVE OR HOW LETTING
IS A-- LEGITIMATE IS A MEMBER
OF THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE WHO
GETS THERE WITH ONLY 38 PERCENT OF THE
SUPPORT OF HIS CONSTITUENTS
INSIDE.

Desmond says IT DEPENDS ON HOW WELL HE'S
VIEWED BY THE OTHERS.
AND VERY OFTEN HE'S VIEWED
PRETTY WELL.
BECAUSE IT'S BEEN A TOUGH FIGHT
IN THAT RIDING.
ALL THREE PARTIES ARE STRONGLY
REPRESENTED.
AND THAT MEMBER HAS COME OUT
ON TOP.
IN A REAL HORSE RACE.
NOT SIMPLY A TWO-PARTY RACE
WHERE IT'S EASY TO GET 51 PERCENT AND
STILL HAVE A LOT 6 PEOPLE
AGAINST YOU.
LOOK, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH
PR IS NOT THE THEORY.
BUT THE PRACTICE.
WHAT PARTICULAR SYSTEM OF
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION ARE
YOU GOING TO PUT ON THE BALLOT
IN-- I PRESUME A FIRST PAST THE
POST REFERENDUM?
THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT FORMS
OF P.R.
IN GERMANY, THEY HAVE HALF PR.
AND HALF OUR KIND OF CONSTITUENCY
ELECTION.
IN FINLAND, THEY GO ALL THE
WAY.
I LIVED WITH SOME OF THE
VICTIMS AND THEY SAY, WE HAVE
NOBODY TO REPRESENT US.
HOW DOES IT WORK?
YOU CREATE A NUMBER OF CONSTITUENCIES.
SAY IN ONTARIO, IT'S 10.
THE LIBERALS GOT 50 PERCENT AND THEY
GET FIVE.
THIS IS THE TORIES, GET 20 PERCENT.
THEY GET TWO AND THE NDP GET
30 PERCENT AND THEY GET THREE.
NOW, THAT MEANS THAT EACH PARTY
PUTS UP A LIST OF TEN PEOPLE.
AND YOU GET INTO THE TYRANNY OF
THE LIST SYSTEM WHO GETS TO THE
TOP OF THE LIST?
WELL, ON THE WHOLE, UM, I-- ON
MY EXPERIENCE AND OBSERVATION
IS THAT THE OLD WHITE GUYS THAT
USUALLY GET TO THE TOP OF
THINGS.
BUT YOU DECORATE
THE PURE PARTY LIST WITH BRIGHT
WOMEN AND VIABLE MINORITIES AND
OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE TROUBLE
GETTING ELECTED AND CERTAINLY
WILL IN FUTURE BECAUSE THEY
TEND TO BE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
LIST.

Ruth says DESMOND, YOU'RE GETTING VERY
CYNICAL.

Desmond says I'M NOT CYNICAL, BECAUSE I
LOOKED-- POLITICS TENDS TO MAKE
YOU A LITTLE CYNICAL BECAUSE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE POWER USE IT TO
GET THEMSELVES ON THE LIST.
ONCE THEY'RE ON THE LIST, AND
ARE NEAR THE TOP, THEY'RE
PRETTY SECURE.
THEY'LL BE MEMBERS, WHATEVER
HAPPENS.
TO THEIR PARTY.

Ruth says THIS SYSTEM IS ONLY ONE
METHOD.
THINK WHAT-- THE DISCUSSION WE
HAVE TO HAVE AS A SOCIETY,
FIRST OF ALL, IS DO WE WANT TO
CHANGE THE FIRST PAST THE POST
SYSTEM THAT WE'VE HAD AS A
RESIDUE OF BRITISH COLONIAL
DAYS.
I GREW UP UNDER ISLAND UNDER A
SINGLE TRANSFERABLE VOTE.
AND NEVER NEW ABOUT THIS OLD
BRITISH SYSTEM OF ONE PAST THE
POST.
BRITS PUT THE IRELAND INTO THE
SOUTH.
SO THE PROTESTANTS WOULD BE
REPRESENTED AND FIRST PAST THE
POST INTO THE NORTH SO THAT THE
CATHOLICS WOULDN'T BE
REPRESENTED.

Desmond says YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SINGLE
TRANSFER.
YOU KNOW IT'S CANADIAN HISTORY,
DON'T YOU, RUTH?
IT WAS PUT INTO BRITISH
COLUMBIA TO KEEP THE CCF OUT.

Ruth says ABSOLUTELY.

Desmond says IT SUCCEEDED.
IT'S NOT A TRICK I THINK MOST
CANADIANS--

Ruth says IT'S IN THIS SYSTEM IN A
NUMBER OF JURISDICTIONS THAT
COMBINE THE ABILITY TO BE
REPRESENTED WITH SOMEBODY IN
YOUR CONSTITUENCY
WITH A TOPPING UP
OF PR AND THAT WORKS.

Richard says THERE ARE AND WILL BE
CHALLENGES WITH PR AND THE LIST
SYSTEM.
IT WOULD BE ONE THAT PROBABLY
WOULDN'T WORK.
MAYBE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, JUST
MUSING ABOUT IS IT TWO VOTES.
VOTE FOR THE LOCAL MEMBER,
MICHAEL BRYANT IN SAINT PAUL'S.
BUT GET A SEPARATE PARTY VOTE.
THEN WE HAVE SOME WAY OF A
APRORSING THE SEATS FOR THAT.

Steve says YOU BLEND THE RESULTS SOMEHOW.

Richard says THAT'S ONE WAY TO DO IT.
SECONDLY, THE FEEBLE FOUR.
SENATORS-- OTTAWA IS WHERE I
LIVE.
AND-- AND PR WOULDN'T CHANGE
ONE THING.
WHICH IS STILL ONLY 38 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE IN OTTAWA CENTRE WOULD
HAVE VOTE THE LIBERAL.
PRESUMABLY.
AND 30 WHATEVER PERCENT WOULD HAVE
VOTED TORY AND 30 WHATEVER
PERCENT WOULD HAVE VOTED NDP
AND THAT WOULDN'T CHANGE IT.

Steve says IN ISRAEL, THEY'VE
PROVINCE-WIDE VOTE AND NO
RIDINGS AND THE TORIES GET 45 PERCENT
OF THE VOTES THEY GET 45 PERCENT OF
THE SEATS.

Ruth says YOU CAN'T DESIGN THE FIT
TO-- ONTARIO'S TOO BIG FOR THAT
SYSTEM.

Michael says THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINTS.
I THINK THAT IT WILL BE A
FAILED EXPERIMENT IF WE JUST
WENT TO A LIST SYSTEM.
THERE'S AN EXPECTATION, LET'S
JUST TALK ABOUT ONTARIO
PROVINCIAL POLITICS, THAT YOUR
MPP WILL SERVE THE CONSTITUENCY.
VERY MUCH-- THERE'S A WARD
POLITICIAN PART OF YOUR JOBS.
PARTLY BECAUSE, BECAUSE IT
COMES OUT OF THE TRADITION
WHERE A LOT OF MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS RUN PROVINCIALLY.
SO THE PERSON USED TO BE THE
MAYOR AND COUNCILLOR AND NOW
THEY'RE THE M PP.
SO I DON'T SEE THROWING THAT--
THAT OUT.
BUT WE CAN, AS, AS HAS BEEN
SAID, TOP IT UP WITH BASICALLY
AT LARGE MPP'S TO MAKE IT MORE
PROPORTIONATE.

Steve says EXCEPT THAT.
DESMOND MORTON POINTS IT OUT THAT
YOUR PARTY WILL HAVE A BINDING
REFERENDUM ON SOME NEW FORM OF
PICKING OUR POLITICIANS.

Michael says WHICH MAY INCLUDE THE STATUS
QUO.

Steve says WHICH MIGHT NOT.
WHAT IF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR
WISDOM DECIDE THEY DON'T LIKE
ANY OF THESE THINGS AND THEY
THROW IT OUT AND WE GO TO
ISRAELI-STYLE HAVE MANY AND--
SYSTEM AND IT'S ONE VOTE
WHEREVER YOU LIVE ACROSS
ONTARIO AND YOU DON'T ACTUALLY
REPRESENT ANYBODY ANYMORE OTHER
THAN THE PARTY.

Michael says I WOULD ADVOCATE AGAINST
THAT.
IF THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE
DECIDE, WE GO THERE.
LET THE PEOPLE WISDOM PREVAIL.

John says THAT WOULD BE A SERIOUS
MISTAKE.
BUT NOBODY'S ADVOCATING THAT WE
MOVE TO THAT.
THINK A BETTER THING TO THINK
ABOUT IS, UM, I THINK THOSE IN
ONTARIO AND CANADIANS ARE
GETTING MORE USED TO PEOPLE
PUTTING UP A PLATFORM AND SAYING
THIS IS, YOU KNOW, LEADERS
SAYING THIS IS WHAT I'LL DO IF
I'M ELECTED.
THE NICE THING ABOUT AN
ELECTION, THE FIRST PAST THE
POST SYSTEM IS THAT THE SYSTEM
GENERATES GOVERNMENTS.
WITH RESPECT TO MY FRIEND MISTER
MAHONEY, HE MISSES THE POINT.
NOT THE HISTORICAL ORIGIN OF
IT.
RIGHT NOW THE-- IT BENEFITS
PARTIES WHO CAN WIN GOVERNMENTS
SO THEY DESIGN PLATFORMS TO DO
THAT.
WHAT THEY DON'T DO IS GET
ELECTED AND SAY, LET'S MAKE A
DEAL.
AS SOON AS THEY GET IN.
WHEN YOU HAVE A PROLIFERATION
OF 5 PERCENT PARTIES AND 12 PERCENT AND 17 PERCENT
PARTIES, WHAT YOU GET IN,
ENOUGH TO IDEA WHAT THE
LEADER'S GOING TO DO WHEN THEY
GET THERE.
LOOK, MY JUNIOR PARTY-- DAVID
PETERSON DIDN'T KNOW ALL THE
THINGS HE WOULD AGREE TO
BETWEEN '85-87 WHEN THE
NDP-LIBERAL ALLIANCE STARTS.

Richard says TRUE.
ABOUT-- WHATEVER WE COME WITH,
THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE
THAT THE LEGISLATURES WE HAVE
IN CANADA, THE PARLIAMENT
NATIONALLY DON'T WORK.
MICHAEL SAYS THAT OPPOSITION
MEMBERS MOSTLY OPPOSE.
THEY DON'T GET TO PROPOSE,
RIGHT?
SO ON AND SO FORTH.
BUT IT COULD-- AND THAT--

Michael says IT CREATES, IT'S GOING TO
CREATE CHECKS AND BALANCES
BECAUSE THERE'S-- IT'S GOING TO
ENCOURAGE MINORITY GOVERNMENTS.
THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS BUILT FOR
MAJORITY GOVERNMENTS AND I'M
SAYING THAT'S NOT WORKING.
BECAUSE THE MAJORITY GOVERNMENT
WAS MINORITY SUPPORT.
WE NEED TO HAVE SOME MORE HORSE
TRADING AND CHECKS AND BALANCES
BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE LOST
CONFIDENCE IN OUR DEMOCRACY.
ONLY REASON WE'RE KEEPING IT IS
BECAUSE OF TRADITION.

Richard says AND NO ALTERNATIVE.

Steve says THERE'S AN ARGUMENT
TO PUT FORWARD WHICH SAYS THE
ONE GOOD THING ABOUT THE FIRST
PAST THE POST THING IS THAT IT
CREATES STRONG WORKABLE
MAJORITY GOVERNMENTS.
WHICH SOME ARGUE YOU NEED TO
GET STUFF DONE.
YOU WANT TO GO THERE?

Desmond says WELL, IT HASN'T ALWAYS DONE
SO, STEVE.
WITH GREAT RESPECT.

Steve says OKAY.
AND--

Ruth says FOR EXAMPLE, LOOK AT THE--
THE BIGGEST CHANGE IN OUR ELECTORAL
SYSTEM WAS DONE BY THE
CURRENT CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT, REDUCING THE NUMBER
OF THE SEATS IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
SO A THE LOT 6 PEOPLE LOST THAT
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE
LOST THAT CONSTITUENCY
REPRESENTATION.
SO THE KIND OF ADMINISTRATION
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BE SETUP TO
TALK ABOUT THIS AND EDUCATE
PEOPLE AND BRING EVERYBODY INTO
THE PROVINCE UP TO THE LEVEL OF
UNDERSTANDING OF, UM, OF SOME
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING
THIS WILL HELP US DETERMINE
WHAT'S THE BEST METHOD.

Steve says I WANT TO PICK UP ON
THIS.
PAUSE HERE WE ARE AT ONTARIO'S
EDUCATION NETWORK AND WE'RE
HAVING A WONDERFUL DISCUSSION
ABOUT THIS.
IN YOUR PARTY'S PLATFORM AND
YOUR PARTY'S PLATFORM.

He points at Richard, Ruth and Michael.

He says YOU CONES HAVE-- YOU DON'T HAVE
TO CONVINCE ME THAT THE PUBLIC
IS INTERESTED IN SOCIAL
SERVICES AND DEBATING TAXES AND
SO ON AND SO FORTH.
DOT PEOPLE OF THE-- DO THE
PEOPLE OF THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO GIVE A DAMN ABOUT WHAT
WE'RE TALK ABOUT TONIGHT?
HOW WE PICK POLITICIAN INSIDE.

Ruth says I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY DO.
BUT I THINK GIVEN THE
EXPERIENCE OF THE LAST EIGHT
YEARS, THE PEOPLE OF THIS
PROVINCE ARE DISSATISFIED WITH
THE LACK OF INFLUENCE THEY HAVE
FELT THEY'VE HAD AND WHETHER
THEY RELATE THAT TO HOW PEOPLE
ARE LECH OR TO WHAT THE
GOVERNMENT HAS DONE CAN VARY.
BUT THEY CERTAINLY KNOW THAT
THE CORNER SYSTEM NEEDS SOME
FIXING.

Richard says I DON'T THINK THEY DO,
EITHER.
BUT WHAT WE DO-- THE CURRENT
SYSTEM NEEDS SOME FIXING.
BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW, WHAT
DALTON MCGUINTY AT THIS TALKED
ABOUT AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW,
THEY'VE LOST CONFIDENCE IN THE
PROCESS AND LOST CONFIDENCE IN
THEIR MEMBERS TO DO THE JOB
THEY'RE PUT TO DO THERE.
THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEIR
MEMBERS OR GOVERNMENT IS
RESPONSIVE TO THEM.
CHANGES LIKE THIS, FREEING UP
MPP'S TO VOTE.
THEIR CONSCIOUS RATHER THAN
PARTY LINE, WILL HELP THAT.
THEY WANT THAT CHANGE.
THEY MAY NOT KNOW THAT DALTON
MCGUINTY AT THIS IS FOR
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
OVER FIRST PAST THE POST.
BUT...

Steve says THEY WILL NEED TO DO
TO KNOW-- TO KNOW THAT.
MICHAEL, IF YOU WIN THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION, WHAT WILL
PEOPLE HAVE TO CONSIDER AND
VOTE ON IN SOME KIND OF
REFERENDUM AS TO COMES TO
PICKING OUR POLITICIAN INSIDE.

Michael says IT'S SUCH A RADICAL CHANGE
TO THE SYSTEM THAT I DON'T
THINK IT WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE
TO JUST PUT IT IN THE ELECTION
PLATFORM AND ELECT THE LIBERALS
AND YOU'LL GET THIS SYSTEM.
YOU-- IT IS SUCH A RADICAL
CHANGE TO OUR SYSTEM THAT I
THINK WE HAVE TO PUT IT TO THE
PEOPLE AND HAVE A PROCESS THAT
LEADS UP TO IT.
SO WE WOULD HAVE, UM, SOMETHING
AKIN TO A LEGISLATIVE TASK
FORCE WHERE WE HAVE EXPERTS
LIKE PROFESSOR MORTON COME IN
AND SPEAK TO IT.
WE WOULD HAVE A CITIZENS' JURY
AND PUT IT TO CITIZENS.
MAKE THE CASE FOR IT.
THEN WE WOULD HAVE A REFERENDUM
WHERE WE SET OUT WHAT THE
VARIOUS ALTERNATIVES WOULD BE
AFTER A DEBATE IN THE
LEGISLATURE, TOO.
SO WE HAVE TO BE AS CONSULTED
AND KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING.
BECAUSE THERE'S NEVER REALLY
BEEN A SERIOUS, SERIOUS
DISCUSSION.

Steve says WOULD THE WINNING
SOLUTION BE FIRST PAST THE
POST?
COULD YOU PUT A NEW SYSTEM IN
PLACE WITH 38 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL
VOTES?

Michael says YOU MEAN WITH A MANDATE OF
DOING?
WHAT WOULD BE THE TERMS OF THE
REFERENDUM?

Steve says IF THE REFERENDUM
SAID HERE ARE FOUR OPTION FOR
YOU TO CONSIDER CHANGING THE
SYSTEM AND THE WINNING OPTION
GOT 38 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL VOTES,
THAT'S FIRST PAST THE POST?
DOES IT WIN?

Michael says I CAN'T IMAGINE-- WE HAVE TO
LOOK HOW THE REFERENDUM WOULD
HAVE TO WORK.
THIS IS A REFERENDUM TO CHANGE
A PARTICULAR DECISION.
THIS ISN'T AN ELECTION TO ELECT
A PERSON.

John says PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION-- 16 PERCENT
OF THE PUBLIC COULD ELECT THEM
ONE WAY AND 35--

Richard says JOHN IS CUTE.
BUT REFERENDUM IS PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.
PEOPLE WILL VOTE AS PER THEIR
CHOICE.
IF-- IN THE EXAMPLE YOU GO TO
MICHAEL.
IF THERE ARE-- IF THE FIRST
REFERENDUM PEOPLE SAY YES, I
WANT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM AND
PUT THREE OR FOUR PROPOSALS IN
FRONT OF THEM AND THERE'S NO
CLEAR MANTLE, YOU COULD HAVE A
FINAL-- YOU COULD HAVE A FINAL
REFERENDUM.
AND--

Steve says DES IN MONTREAL WANTS
IN.

Desmond says YEAH, REMEMBER THE
AUSTRALIAN REFERENDUM ON THE
MONARCHY?

Steve says YES.

Desmond says IT WAS DEFEATED.
MOST AUSTRALIANS CLEARLY WANTED
TO VOTE AGAINST THE MONARCHY.
BUT THEY REALLY DISLIKED THE
ALTERNATIVES.
WHETHER IT WAS AN ELECTED
PRESIDENT.
WHETHER AN APPOINTED PRESIDENT OR WHATEVER.
THE DETAILS DO MATTER.
ONCE PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND
THOSE DETAILS, IF THEY CAN.
BECAUSE THEY'RE HIGHLY COMPLEX.
THEY WILL DIVIDE ALL OVER THE
PLACE.

Richard says THAT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT
AGAINST IT.
BUT FOR IT.

Desmond says IT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT AGAINST
IT.
BUT IT MAKES ME FRIGHTENED OF
PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT GETTING
RID OF A SYSTEM AND-- AS-- WITH
ITS FAULTS, WHICH I
ACKNOWLEDGE.
AND-- AND WHICH SYSTEMS ARE
THEY GOING TO PUT IN PLACE?
WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE
AVAILABLE?
STEVE HAS SUGGEST THE FOUR
CHOICES.
I CAN THINK OF AT LEAST 15.
AND MANY-- THERE ARE JUST A
WHOLE LOT OF MODELS OF
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION OUT
THERE.
I MEAN, WHAT RUTH GRIER WAS
TALKING, IT WAS FIRST
TRANSFERABLE VOTE.

Ruth says HE'S SAYING IS A RECIPE FOR
NEVER DOING ANYTHING.
SOMEHOW, YOU KNOW, WHAT-- WHAT
THE NDP'S APPROACH TO THIS IS
MAKE A COMMITMENT THAT IF
ELECTED WE'LL GO FOR
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.
THEN RECOGNIZE THAT PROBABLY A
HORRENDOUS PROCESS TO EDUCATE
PEOPLE.
TALK ABOUT ALTERNATIVES AND
COME UP WITH A SYSTEM.
BUT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE DONE
IT.
THE NEW DEVOLVED LEGISLATURES
IN THE BRITISH ISLANDS, EVEN
HAVE A SYSTEM OF MORE PROPORTION
PROPORTIONALITY.
AND THIS-- WE HAVE TO CHANGE.

John says PEOPLE SAY IN CHURCH, YOU
KNOW, GOD IS A REALLY DIFFICULT
CONCEPTS T MUST BE THAT THEY
DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORD IN
THE PRAYER WORK.
LET'S CHANGE THE WORD IN THE
PRAYER WORK AND THEN THEY'LL
GET TO GOD.
THE FACT IS THAT GOD IS AN
IMMENSELY COMPLICATED
CONCEPT.
SO IS GOVERNMENT.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S A CLEAR
NEXUS BETWEEN GETTING OUT AND
GETTING PEOPLE TO VOTING AND TO
REPRESENTATION PROPORTIONAL.
IF YOU WANT TO GET ACTIVE, GET
40-45 PERCENT THAT DON'T VOTE AND GET
THEM TO VOTE.

Steve says NOW THE LAST MINUTE
HERE.
MICHAEL, YOU AND I BOTH WENT
TO A CONFERENCE PUT ON BY
RESEARCH AND PUBLIC POLICY FROM
MONTREAL WHERE WE HEARD A MEMBER
OF THE PARTI QUEBECOIS
GOVERNMENT WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS
FILE, ADMIT THAT THE PQ GOT
ELECTED IN '96 PROMISING TO
BRING THIS IN.
BUT AS SOON AS THEY GOT ELECTED BY THE
BAD OLD RULES, SOMEHOW THIS
PROMISE JUST DISAPPEARED BELOW
THE TABLE.
IF YOU WIN, HOW ARE WE SURE
THAT THAT WON'T HAPPEN?

Michael says I MEAN, THE PROMISE--
COMMITMENT ARE MADE.
AND IF COMMITMENT ARE BROKEN,
YOU'RE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT
BUT OVER MY DEAD BODY ARE WE
GOING TO BREAK THIS COMMITMENT.
A LOT OF POLITICAL DEAD BODIES
WILL FALL WITH IF WE DO BREAK
THIS COMMITMENT.
LET'S RUN THIS AGAIN IN FOUR
YEARS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

Ruth says YOUR PARTY PRESIDENT TOLD
HIM PERSONALLY THERE WOULD
NEVER BE A LIBERAL REFERENDUM.

Michael says OUR DEMOCRATIC CHARTER IS--
IS THERE FOR THE PEOPLE TO
SUPPORT.
AND IF-- IF WE DON'T GO THROUGH
WITH IT, OBVIOUSLY WE'RE GOING
TO PAY THE PRICE.
THAT'S THE WAY DEMOCRACIES
WORK.

Steve says WE HAVE HIM ON
VIDEOTAPE.

Michael says PERFECT.

Steve says DES MORTON IN MONTREAL, THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING FROM US
MCGILL UNIVERSITY IN MONTREAL
TODAY.
MICHAEL BRYANT, THE MPP FOR SAINT
PAUL'S.
THANK YOU.
JOHN MATHESON, FOR PINCH HITTING
AND RUTH GRIER AND RICHARD
MAHONEY.
I'M OUT OF BREATHE.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.
AND THAT'S "4TH READING" FOR
THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT FRIDAY, THANK YOU.

Music plays as the end credits roll.

Queen’s Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

Editor, Empyreal Palmer.

CEP LOCAL 72m.

Canadian Media Guild.

TNG Canada CWA.

A production of TVOntario.

Copyright. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority 2003.

Watch: Proportional Representation