Transcript: Greening Ontario | Mar 16, 2003

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON “4TH
READING,” ELECTION FEVER.
ARE THOSE IN ONTARIO HEADING
FOR THE POLLS THIS SPRING?

Steve, Ruth, Richard, and another panelist sit with a guest around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a beige coat over a gray shirt.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.
Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THIS IS “4TH READING” FOR THIS
WEEK.
THOSE THAT LOVE TO READ THE TEA
LEAVES AT QUEEN'S PARK GOT EARL
GREY AND ORANGE PEKOE AND
OTHERS ALL TOGETHER THIS WEEK.
ERNIE EVES WILL BRING DOWN THE
BUNTS ON MARCH 27TH WITHOUT THE
HOUSE IN SESSION.
THAT'S UNUSUAL.
HAS THE PUNDITS WONDERING WHAT
IT MEANS IN TERMS OF ELECTION
TIMING.
HERE ARE ROBERT FISHER AND
Susanna KELLEY WITH THEIR VIEWS
ON THIS EDITION OF “BACK ROOM 411.”

(Music plays)
A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says OKAY, ROB AND
SUSANNA, AS WE SUGGESTED, AN
UNPRECEDENTED WAY OF BRINGING
IN A BUDGETS.
LET'S SEE HOW MANY MR. EVES
BROUGHT THIS IN.
ROLL TAPE.

A clip plays in which Ernie Eves gives an official statement.

He says APRIL 30TH, WE'LL COME BACK
WITH A THRONE SPEECH ON THAT DATE.
BUT WE'LL KEEP THE COMMITMENT
WITH A RESPECT TO THE BUDGET
BEFORE THE END OF THE FISCAL
YEAR, TO BE DELIVERED BY THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE ON THE 27TH
OF MARCH IN A LOCATION TO BE
DETERMINED IN THE GREATER
TORONTO AREA.

Back in the studio, Steve says WELL, USUALLY THE
LOCATION TO BE DETERMINED IN
THE GREATER TORONTO AREA IS
QUEEN'S PARK, THE LEGISLATURE.
ROBERT, WE KNOW IT WON'T BE
THERE.
WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT HOW
THEY'LL BRING IN THE BUDGET?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."
Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and red tie.

He says IT'S THE ONTARIO VERSION OF
REALITY TV.
“TEMPTATION ISLAND” AND
“BACHELORETTE” ALL WRAPPED INTO A ONE.
AND IT'S A TV SHOW.
JANET E C KER BUDGETS DAY.
SATELLITE FEEDS AND INTERNET
CONNECTIONS.
THIS WILL MAKE ED SULLIVAN LOOK
LIKE POLKAROO.

Steve says NOW ON THE STAGE,
SUSANNA KELLY, POLITICAL
SCIENTIST AND THOSE THAT CARE
ABOUT THESE THINGS IS UNIVERSAL
IN THE CONDEMNATION OF THIS
THING SO FAR R THEY ANAL
RETENTIVE?
OR WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen's Park Bureau Chief."
Susanna is in her forties, with short wavy blond hair. She’s wearing a red and black tailored suit.

She says IT'S UNIVERSALLY CONDEMNED
AS BEING VERY UNDEMOCRATIC.
BUT MY SOURCES SAY THE REASON
THEY'RE DOING THIS IS TO GIVE
THE PARTY MAXIMUM FLEXIBILITIES
IN DECIDING WHEN TO GO FOR AN
ELECTION.
BRING DOWN A BUDGETS ON MARCH
27TH, NOT IN THE HOUSE AND
GOVERNED BY THE RULES OF THE
HOUSE, WHICH MANDATORY.
FIVE DAYS OF DEBATE.
OPPOSITION DOESN'T GET ANY PLAY
BECAUSE THE REPORTERS AREN'T
COVERING IT.
SO THEY CAN DROP THE WRIT,
EITHER WITHIN A FEW DAYS OF
MARCH 27TH OR ANY TIME UP UNTIL
APRIL 30TH WHEN THEY CALL THE
HOUSE BACK.
OR WAIT UNTIL APRIL 30TH.
I THINK THEY'LL BE POLLING LIKE
MAD IN THAT PERIOD AND TRYING
TO FIGURE OUT WHEN THE RIGHT
TIME IS TO DO IT.
THEY HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY OF
BRINGING DOWN THE THRONE SPEECH.
WHICH GIVES THEM YET ANOTHER
FORUM TO ROLL OUT THEIR
PLATFORM.
AND, UM, SO THE-- THEY GOT A
LOT OF FLEXIBILITY THERE.
BUT EVERYONE IS SAYING THAT
IT'S VERY-- IT'S VERY
UNDEMOCRATIC AND THE PEOPLE WHO
SAID THEY'RE COMING TO
GOVERNMENT TO SAFEGUARD THE
TAXPAYERS' MONEY DON'T WATT THE
REPRESENTATIVES THAT WE HAVE
ELECTED TO SEE HOW THEY'RE
GOING TO SPEND THAT MONEY.

Steve says THERE'S A FLIP SIDE TO THIS?

Robert says HOW MANY PEOPLE WATCH THE
BUDGET BEING PRESENTED ON THE
QUEEN'S PARK SERVICE?
THAT'S A BIG QUESTION MARK.
I THINK IT GOES BEYOND WHAT I
AGREE WITH MA S-- WITH WHAT
SUSANNA WAS TALKING ABOUT.
THAT THEY WANT UNFETTERED
ACCESS TO THE PEOPLE.
THEY FIND THE MEDIA IS GETTING
IN THE WAY OF MESSAGE.
BIG GAMBLE IS THAT THE PEOPLE
SAY WE'RE INTERESTED IN A TAX
CUTS.
NOT INTERESTED WHETHER IT'S IN
A STUDIO OR IN QUEEN'S PARK.
GIVE US THE TAX CUTS IF THEY
MISGAMBLE OR MISCALCULATED ON
THAT, WE COULD PAY A PRICE.
WE THOUGHT THAT MR. EVES
RESPECTED THE HOUSE PROCESS.
GENERALLY IN THE HOUSE.
NEVER ON TIME, BUT GENERALLY IN
THE HOUSE AND HE SEEMS TO HAVE
BEEN SOMEONE WHO LIKED THE
PROCESS AND THOUGHT IT WAS
IMPORTANT TO MAINTAIN IT, AS BOB
NICHOL DID WHEN WE TRAS
TREASURER.
BUT THIS IS REALLY-- A LOT OF
PEOPLE THINK JAMIE WATT IS
BEHIND THIS.
THE MAN THAT DID THE TECHNOLOGY
FOR JIM FLAHERTY.
PUT THE TECHNOLOGY FIRST AND
THE DELEGATES PUT MR. FLAHERTY
SECOND.

Susanna says WHAT I'M HEARING FROM A LOT
6 PEOPLE IS THAT IT'S NOT
SURPRISING THAT IT'S BEING DONE
THIS WAY.
THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING
THE CAMPAIGN WHO ARE RUNNING--
ARE THE SAME WHO WERE, YOU
KNOW, RUNNING THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE UNDER MIKE HARRIS FOR
SEVEN YEARS AND WHO WERE
CONSTANTLY ACCUSED OF ROUGHING
ROUGH SHOD OVER THE DEMOCRATIC
PROCESS.
ONLY NARROW CASTING AND
WORRYING ABOUT THE CORE VOTERS
IN 905 AND RURAL ONTARIO.
RUNNING ROUGH SHOD OVER THE
MINISTERS AND THE MINISTERIAL
SYSTEM AT QUEEN'S PARK.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING ,
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?
IT'S THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE
RUNNING THE CAMPAIGN.
NOT MUCH OF A CHANGE HERE.

Steve says LET ME PLAY THE
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE IS THAT
THERE'S A THEORY THAT THE WAY
THAT BUJS WERE PRESENTED IN
QUEEN'S PARK IS INSIDE
BASEBALL.
UNLESS YOU WERE A SPECIAL GUEST
THAT CAME TO THE GALLERY, NOT
MANY PEOPLE SAW THE BUDGET COME
DOWN.
THE BUDGETS WILL BE READ,
AVAILABLE ON SATELLITE ALL OVER
THE PROVINCE AND ON THE
INTERNET HOOK UP AS WELL.
NOW, COULD YOU NOT MAKE AN
ARGUMENT THAT IT'S MORE
ACCESSIBLE AND MORE DEMOCRATIC
DOING IT THIS WAY?

Susanna says IT'S ON TV EVERY TIME IT'S--
IT'S PRESENTED.
HALF THE STATIONS CARRY IT
LIVE.
UM , WHEN THE MINISTER, THE
FINANCE MINISTER STARTS TO
SPEAK.
SO I DON'T-- I CAN'T SEE THAT
IT'S ANYMORE DEMOCRATIC.
THE AUDIENCE, IT'S A
HAND-PICKED AUDIENCE THAT WILL
BE INVITE TODAY WATCH.
IT'S A HAND-PICKED AUDIENCE
THAT COMES INTO QUEEN'S PARK.
BUT AT LEAST THE LEGISLATURE
ARE THERE.

Robert says IT'S A PART OF THE THING
THAT TORIES WOULD WANT TO MAINTAIN
A TRADITION.
IT'S A INTERESTED DIGS THAT
PEOPLE HAVE COME TO RESPECT AND
EXPECT.
IT'S OUT OF SIVERPG WITH WHAT'S
HAPPENING NOW.
BUT THE ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE
THAT YES, IT WILL OPEN IT O A
BROADER NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE
PROVINCE AND MAYBE THAT'S THE
WAY THINGS WILL HAPPEN IN THE
POLITICS.
OPEN UP THE PROCESS MORE.
IT SURE AS HELL MAKES THE
OPPOSITION MAD, THERE'S NO
DOUBT ABOUT IT.
THEY GOT SHUT OUT OF THE FIVE
DAYS OF POUNDING THE PREMIER
AND FINANCE MINISTER OVER
WHAT'S IN THE BUDGET OR FOR THE
IN IT.

Steve says YOU SAY THAT JAMIE
WATTABLE PROBABLY HIS BRAIN
CHILD.
MANY OF PEOPLE, WON'T MENTION
NAMES HERE, BUT MANY OF THE
PEOPLE AROUND THE NEW PREMIER
ERNIE EVE ARE NOT SYMPATICO
WITH THE WAY MR. EVES DOES
BUSINESS.
HE'S A CENTRALIST CONSERVATIVE.
THESE ARE MANY OF THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTIONARIES.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT WHY
THEY ARE STICKING SO CLOSE TO
MR. EVES AS OPPOSED TO
ABANDONING HIM AS TOM LONG
HAS, FOR EXAMPLE.

Susanna says WHY IS THIS GROUP SUPPORTING
EVES, RUNNING AS A CENTRALIST,
NOT NEO CONSERVATIVE.
AND, UM, THINK WHAT I'M HEARING
FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THAT
YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE THAT IT'S
WELL KNOWN THAT THIS GROUP HAS
BEEN, UM, THE RECIPIENTS OF A
LOT OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
FROM THE PC'S OVER THE LAST
SEVEN YEARS.
THEY'RE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY.
FROM THIS GOVERNMENT.
AND, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE,
THEY'RE-- THE STAKES ARE VERY
HIGH.
IF YOU MAKE ROT OF MONEY FROM
THE GOVERNMENT, IF YOUR PARTY
LOSES.
IF YOU MAKE A LOT OF MONEY
FROM THE GOVERNMENT, IF YOUR
PARTY LOSES.
THAT'S NOT THE ONLY REASON, BUT
THAT'S WHAT IS PERCOLATING OUT
THERE.

Robert says MR. WATT WORKING FOR MR.
EVES CAMPAIGN AND BARBARA HALL'S
CAMPAIGN.

Steve says THE MAYOR OF TORONTO.

Robert says YES.
ALWAYS HAS HALL AND IF HALL
SUCCEEDS AND-- DOESN'T SUCCEED
AND EVES DOES, HE'S COVERED
BOTH WAYS.

Susanna says THEY HAVE MR. CONSILLA,
WORKING FOR THE LIBERALS.

Robert says ALL THE BASES ARE COVERED.

Steve says AND SOMETHING UNUSUAL
HAPPENED THIS WEEK TO THE
DEPUTY PREMIER.
LET'S TAKE THE PREMIER OUT OF
THE OCCASION.
ELIZABETH WITMER, ALSO THE
EDUCATION MINISTER, WENT TO
SPEAK TO THE CATHOLIC TEACHERS'
ASSOCIATION AND GOT JOSTLED AND
SHOFEDT AND A GLASS OF WATER
WAS THROWN, IF NOT ON HER, AT
LEAST AT HER.
HOW WILL THIS PLAY?

Robert says BONE PLAY AT ALL.
IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE BY THE
CATHOLIC TEACHERS' FOUNDATION.
NOT CONDONED BY THE LEADERSHIP.
THEY WERE VERY UPSET ABOUT IT.
I TALKED TO TEACHERS PRIVATELY
ABOUT IT AND THEY WERE DIS
DISTREFED.
TEACHERS DON'T WANT TO DO IT.
WHEN AT THE LIKE THE GOVERNMENT
ARE FIGHTING FOR THE HEARTS AND
MIND, YOU CAN THROW WATER ON
THE EDUCATION MINISTER AND
ACTING LIKE THE WAY STUDENTS
AREN'T SUPPOSED TO ACT IN
PUBLIC AND CATHOLIC SCHOOLS IN
THIS PROVINCE.

Susanna says CERTAINLY A MISTAKE BY THE
TEACHERS' UNION, TO QUESTION.
BUT I HAVE TO WONDER WHY MISS
WITMER ACCEPTED THE INVITATION
TO GO AND SPEAK THERE ANYWAY.
JANET ECKER , WHEN SHE WAS
EDUCATION MINISTER, WENT TO
SPEAK TO THEM AND GOT BOOED
OUT.
I DON'T WHY THEY DO THAT TWO
YEARS IN A ROW.

Steve says THANK YOU FOR THE 411 FROM
THE BACK ROOMS, YOU 2W50.

Robert says ANY TIME.

Steve says NOW BACK AROUND THE TABLE.
AND THE POLL WAS RELEASED OF
THE ONTARIO REID.
AND THERE IT WAS LIBERALS WERE
AHEAD.
THE GREEN PARTY WAS AT 5 percent.
GREEN PARTY HAS BEEN A FORCE IN
EUROPEAN POLITICS AND MAY HAVE
DECIDED THE 2000 U.S. ELECTION
WHEN RALPH NADER GOT ENOUGH
VOTES AWAY FROM GORE TO GIVE IT
TO AL BUSH WHAT CAN THE GREENS
DO IN ONTARIO?
WE'LL ASK THEIR LEADER IN A
MOMENT.
BUT FIRST THEIR BACKGROUND.

A clip plays with the caption “Frank de Jong. Ontario Green Party Leader.”
Frank is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says WE HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL
ASPECTS OF LIFE IN THIS
PROVINCE AND MAKE SURE THAT ALL
PERSONAL AND GOVERNMENT
DECISION HAS THE GREEN
IMPERATIVE.

Fast clips show a Green Party rally and people voting.

Steve says THE GREENS MADE SOME
STRIDES AFTER A BY-ELECTION
WHEN THEY PICK UP 6 percent OF THE
VOTE.
NOT HALF BAD FOR A PARTY THAT
CAPTURED-- THAT CAPTURED LESS
THAN 1 percent OF THE VOTES IN THE '99
PROVINCIAL ELECTION.

Now a man speaks.
A caption reads “Douglas Macdonald. University of Toronto.”
Douglas is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair and glasses.

He says SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE GOING
ON IN ONTARIO POLITICS.
TRADITIONALLY, THE GREEN PARTY
HAS DONE WELL OR BETTER, TREES,
IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.
UM, AND HAS NEVER DONE
PARTICULARLY WELL IN ONTARIO.
SO SOMETHING SEEMS TO BE CHANGING.

Steve says ALTHOUGH GREEN
PARTIES IN EUROPE HAVE ENJOYED
GREAT SUCCESS, THEY'VE FEVER
GAINED A FOOTHOLD IN CANADA.
BUT THIS GREEN PARTY LEADER,
FRANK DE JONG HOPES THAT WILL
SOON CHANGE.

Frank says LIKE SMOG AND NUTRIENT
MATTER AND SMOG AND GARBAGE,
THEY'RE ALL ISSUES FOR PEOPLE.
THEY'RE VOTING GREEN BECAUSE
THEY WANT ACTION ON THESE
ISSUES.

Steve says SOME SAY IF THE GREEN
PARTIES CONTINUES TO MAKE
STRIDES, THE LEFT VOTE IN
ONTARIO COULD BE SPLIT, HURTING
THE NDP.
BUT NEW DEMOCRATS SAY THEY'RE
NOT WORRIED.

At an NDP rally, the NDP leader shouts
LET'S GO GET TEMPERATURE!

Then, a man speaks in an office.
A caption reads “Peter Kormos. NDP Niagara Centre.”
Peter is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair and glasses.

He says I DON'T THINK A LOT OF THOSE
IN ONTARIO KNOW WHAT THE GREEN
PARTY IS ABOUT.
BUT-- AND BUT AT THE END OF THE
DAY, THEY CAN UNDERSTAND THAT
THE GREEN PARTY IS A VERY RIGHT
WING PARTY WITH VERY ULTRA
RIGHT WING PERSONALITIES AND A
HODGE POJ OF SOME FLAKEY POLICIES.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says CAN THE GREENS BE A
PLAYER ON THE ONTARIO POLITE
CAL-- POLITICAL SCENE.
LET'S FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THIS
FAIRLY NEW PARTY, THE LEADER
FRANK DE JONG.
WHO WILL RUN IN EVES' RIDING.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
AND WITH US, RUTH GRIER,
RICHARD MAHONE AND BEV HAMMOND,
PRESIDENT OF VERITACKS
COMMUNICATIONS AND CLOSE
ADVISOR TO PREMIER EVES.
I KNOW THE GREEN PARTY THINKS
IT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER
MAIN STAYS OF ONTARIO POLITICS.
WHAT'S THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Frank de Jong. Ontario Green Party Leader."
Frank is wearing a gray suit, gray shirt, and red tie.

He says WELL, I THINK IT'S A
QUESTION OF PRIORITIES.
FOR US, PLANET EARTH IS PRIMARY
AND HUMANS ARE A DERIVATIVE.
FOR US, THE ECO SYSTEM IS WHERE
IT'S AT AND THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM
IS A SUB SYSTEM.
THE OTHER PARTIES FEEL IT'S THE
OTHER WAY AROUND, WITH WALSH--
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT.
AND WE THINK IT'S BASED ON A
HEALTHY BUY SPHERE.
AND OTHER PARTIES THINK THAT
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, UM,
SHOULD OPERATE TRUE-- TO MAKE
THE ECONOMY RUN, REGARDLESS
WHAT HAVE IT DOES.
OUR OPINION IS THAT IF WE CAN
CONTINUE TO-- TO, UM, TO LIVE
LIKE WE ARE NOW, WE'RE HITTING
THE ECOLOGY DEATH WALL AND OUR
COMMUNITIES AND OUR
INSTITUTIONS AND OUR ECONOMY
WILL SPIRAL DOWN.

Steve says DOES THIS MEAN YOU
WOULD SHUT DOWN BIG POLLUTERS,
FOR EXAMPLE?

Frank says NOT SHUT DOWN.
BUT WE LIKE TO DO THINGS BEFORE
MARKET TAXATION.
SO WE WOULD TAXES ON THE DIRTY
STUFF AND TAKE THE TAXES OFF
THE CLEAN STUFF.

Steve says GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE.
A DIRTY THING TO TAX.

Frank says COAL.
INDUSTRY FOLLOWS THE PATH OF
LEAST TAX RESISTANCE.
IF WE USE THE TAX BEFORE
MARKET, INDUSTRY MOVES TO GREEN
TECH.
IF A MONEY MAKES MORE MONEY
WITH GREEN TECH THAN GREEN
TECH, THEY'LL SWITCH.

Steve says PETER KORMOS, AS YOU
SAW IN THE BACKGROUND PIECE,
THE GREEN PARTY IS AN ULTRA
RIGHT WING PARTY WITH FRAIK CAN
I POLICIES.
HOW ACCURATE IS THAT?

Frank says IS HE SAYING AT THAT RIGHT
WING PARTIES HAVE FLAKEY
POLICIES, BEV?
I THINK THAT'S COMPREEL UNTRUE.
THE GREEN PARTY FOR THE LAST
10-- THAT'S COMPLETELY UNTRUE.
THE GREEN PARTY FOR THE LAST 10
2, 0 YEARS HAVE BEEN CHERRY
PICKING FROM THE OTHER PARTIES
AND WE PICKED THE BEST AND
WOVEN IT INTO A PRIT CAL
PLATFORM.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE PRESENTING TO
THE PUBLIC.

Steve says I WANT TO GO THROUGH
JUST THROUGH THREE OR FOUR BIG
ISSUES AND SHORT ANSWERS SO
THAT PEOPLE GET AN
UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE YOU ARE.
MARIJUANA AND HASHISH?
LEGALIZED 123.

Frank says THAT'S A FEDERAL ISSUE.
WE DON'T HAVE AN OPINION ON IT.

Steve says YOUR WEBSITE HAS AN
OPINION ON IT.

Frank says WE THINK AT THAT INDUSTRIAL
HEM-- HEMP IS A USE OF FIBER.
DON'T HAVE AN OPINION ON THE
RECREATIONAL USE OF MARIJUANA.

Steve says CIGARETTES WITH NOT
IN A GREEN VIEW OF SOCIETY.
WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH SMOKING?

Frank says SAME TINGE THAT OTHER
PARTIES ARE DOING.
TAX HEAVILY AND GET A LOT OF
EDUCATION TO MAKE SURE THAT
PEOPLE REALIZE THE DETRIMENTAL
EFFECT OF SMOKING.

Steve says WOULD YOU BAN HUNTING HUNTING?

Frank says OF BEAR AND WOLF.
BUT NOT OF DEER AND MOOSE AT
THIS POINT.
NOT IF FAVOUR OF HUNTING.
BUT A LOT OF RURAL KNOWS
ONTARIO, THEY BAG A SCOMOOS
DEER FOR THE WINTER'S FOOD SO
IT'S PROBABLY WORSE TO BRING
ORGANIC PRODUCE FROM CALIFORNIA
THAN IT IS TO EAT LOCAL WILD MEAT.

Steve says WOULD YOU SHUT DOWN
THE NUKE CAREER POWER PLANTS.

Frank says FACE THEM DOWN AS QUICKLY AS
POSSIBLE AS RENEWABLES COME ON STREAM.

Steve says OKAY.
RUTH, I WANT TO GO TO YOU.
THE GREEN PARTY TENDS TO STEAL
VOTES FROM THEY THINK ALL THE
PARTIES.
BUT THE NDP IN PARTICULAR.
ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says NO, I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.
I WELCOME FIB RAISING
ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES.
BUT I THINK THAT FOR-- I
WELCOME ANYBODY RAISING
ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES.
BUT MOST VOTERS LOOK FOR
COMPREHENSIVE VOTES.
INSTEAD OF JUST ONE ISSUE.
WHILE THE GREENS SAY THEY HAVE
POLICIES THAT THEY'VE CHERRY
PICKED FROM THE OTHER POLICIES,
ESSENTIALLY THE ENVIRONMENT IS
THEIR PRIME AND ONLY ISSUES CAMPAIGNS.
AND I THINK THE INCONSISTENT
HIS OF THE THINGS THEY'VE
CHERRY PICKED.
FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK THEY SAY
THEY WOULD ABOLISH INCOME
TAXES.
WELL, THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT
SOMETHING THAT THE NDP WOULD
DO.
WE BELIEVE IF A PROGRESSIVE
INCOME TAX SYSTEM.
THEY SAY THEY WOULD TAX
POLLUTERS.
AND WILE THAT IS A GOOD DEVICE,
UM, IN SOME INSTANCES, THE
DIFFICULTY IF YOU'RE GOING TO
RAISE YOUR REF FEWS FOR HEALTH
AND PUBLIC EDUCATION FROM TAX
AND FLUTE-- YOUR REVENUES FOR
HEALTH AND PUBLIC EDUCATION
FROM TAX AND POLLUTERS IS THAT
YOU NEED REVENUE FROM
POLLUTERS.
OR ELSE YOU WON'T HAVE ANY
REVENUE.

Steve says Are you for abolishing income taxes?

Frank says WE WOULD LIKE TO RAISE THE
EXEMPTION FOR ROAR INCOME.
AND SHIFT IT OFF 6 INCOMES AND
OFF RESOURCES AND POLLUTION.
SO THAT IT WAS A-- OFF OF
INCOMES AND OFF RESOURCES.
POLLUTION.
AND SO THAT IT HAS A WIN-WIN.
PRAIKS PEOPLE LESS EXPENSIVE TO
EMPLOYEE AND POLLUTION MORE
EXPENSIVE.
IT'S A REVENUE SHIFT AND NOT A
TAX GRAB OR A TAX GIVE WAY.

Steve says I THINK THAT DOCTOR
SOME NEW DEMOCRATS WHO ARE
WORRIED THAT THE GREENS WOULD
TEND-- THAT I-- I THINK THAT THE
NEW DEMOCRATS WHO ARE WORRIED
THAT THE GREEN WAS TEND TO TAKE
VOTES AWAY FROM YOU.
AND ANY VOTES THAT DON'T GO TO
THE LIBERALS IS A PROBLEM FOR
YOU GUYS TO TAKE THE KEY FROM
QUEEN'S PARK.
IF THE GREEN ARE AT 5 percent, DO WE
ASSUME THAT'S 2 OR 3 percent OF THE
VOTES THAT YOU GUYS NEED TO WIN
THAT MIGHT NOT GO TO YOU INSTEAD?
AND ISN'T IT A PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says IT COULD BE.
ROBERT FISHER WOULD SAY THAT
IS-- THIS IS BAD NEWS FOR
DALTON MCGUINTY.

Steve says HE WOULD.

Richard says IF RECENT BY-ELECTIONS THE
GREEN ARE SHOWING WELL.
GETTING A HIGHER DEGREE OF
SUPPORT THAN THEY WOULD GET.
IN PARRY TOWN, HIGHER SUPPORT
THAN THE-- THAN SOME GOT IN ONE
AREA.
SO THAT SAME LOGIC CONTINUED TO
THE GENERAL ELECTION.
AND IF A GENERAL ELECTION WAS
THAT CLOSE ON THE ASSUMPTION
THAT-- THAT THOSE, THOSE VOTES
MIGHT HAVE GONE TO THE
LIBERALS, YES, IT COULD
POSSIBLY HURT.
BUT, NUMBER ONE, UM, YOU KNOW,
WE LIVE IN A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM
AND MORE POLITICAL PARTIES ARE
NOT A BAD THING.
THEY'RE A GOOD TINGE.
THEY'RE THE SOURCE OF IDEAS.
GREEN PARTY IS FRANK-- THEY'RE
A GOOD THING.
THEY'RE THE SOURCE OF IDEAS.
GREEN PARTY IS A DIFFERENT FROM
MOST PARTIES BECAUSE IT'S A
MOVEMENT.
MAINSTREAM PARTIES, BECAUSE
THEY'RE POLITICAL PARTIES, TRY
TO REFLECT ATTITUDES THAT ARE
PRESENT IN THE PUBLIC.
WHERE AS THE GREEN PARTY IS
MORE MOVEMENT BASED.
OUT OF THAT CAN COME SOME VERY
GOOD IDEAS AND MAYBE NOT SOME
GOOD IDEA.
WE'LL BE MORE FOCUSED ON
BALANCING.
I GUESS THE BARGAIN THAT WE'LL
TRY TO MAKE WITH THE-- WITH THE
ELECTORAT AND HE MESSAGE WE'LL
SAY IS THAT IF YOU CARE ABOUT
THE ENVIRONMENT, THE--
ELECTORATE AND THE MESSAGE
WE'LL SAY IS THAT IF YOU CARE
ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT, THE PAIN
STREAM APPARENT CAN GET MORE.
GREEN PARTY WILL SAY WE HAVE
THIS GREAT IDEA, WHY NOT VOTE
FOR US.

Steve says ARE THERE ANY
POLICIES THAT THE GREEN PARTY'S
PUT FORWARD THAT YOU MIND OKAY?
THAT YOU WOULD BE HAPPEN TO
CHAMPION AS PART OF A
CONSERVATIVE ELECTION PLATFORM,
FOR EXAMPLE?

The caption changes to "Bev Hammond. Former Aide to Ernie Eves."
Bev is in her late thirties, with short wavy blond hair.

She says WELL, I DON'T AGREE WITH ALL
THE FISCAL POLICY.
I DO WANT TO POINT OUT THAT
THEY'RE NOT A SOCIAL DEMOCRAT
PARTY.
WHICH I AGREE WITH.
I LIKE THAT IDEA.
I LIKE THAT CONCEPT.
SO-- SO I MEAN, THE FACT THAT
AT THE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE
MARKET A LITTLE BIT AND LOOK AT
INNOVATIVE IDEAS, EVEN WHERE
THE ENVIRONMENT'S CONCERNED
THAT-- SOME OF THE THEM ARE
ESSENTIALLY MARKET DRIVEN AND I
DON'T THINK THAT'S SUCH A BAD
THING.
SO...

Frank says JUST ONE COMMENT.
THE QUESTION YOU'RE ASKING THE
PANELISTS IS WHAT ABOUT VOTE
SPLITTING ?
THE NDP AND THE LIBERALS HAD A
CHANCE TO BRING IN PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION IF RECENT YEARS,
AND THEY DIDN'T DO IT.
YOU'RE BLAMEING US FOR VOTE
SPLITTING AND I THINK THAT'S--

Richard says IF YOU WERE
REPRESENTATIONAL-- AND I THINK
THAT'S A DEBATABLE PROPOSITION
IF MY OWN PERSONAL VIEW.
AND PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
THAT WOULD HELP PARTIES REICH
THE GREEN PARTIES.
WHAT THAT MEANS IS RATHER THAN
THE FIRST PAST THE POST SYSTEM
AND PEOPLE WON'T VOTE AND IF
GREEN PARTY GETS 5 percent OF THE
VOTES THEY GET 5 percent OF THE SEATS.
DALTON MCBEGINS AT THIS SAID A
BINDING REFERENDUM ON IT.
IF YOU WANTED AT THAT-- WHY FOR
THE SUPPORT THE LIBERAL PARTY ON THAT?

Bev says I WANT TO JUMP IN.
BECAUSE ROBERT FISHER IS NOT
EAR, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE
HIS POSITION ON THIS ENTIRE
THING, ACTUALLY.
IT IS BAD NEWS FOR DALTON
MCBEGINS AT THIS.
AND, UM, HAVING, UM, HAVING
PARTICIPATE-- MCGUINTY.
AND, UM, HAVING, UM,
PARTICIPATED IN THE BY-ELECTION
IN PARRY SOUND AND MUSKOKA, THE
GREEN PARTY GOT 12 percent OF THE VOTE
UP THERE.
AND PULLED A LOT FROM THE
LIBERAL PARTY AS YOU KNOW,
FRANK IN, THAT PARTICULAR
BY-ELECTION.
THE TEACHER VOTE, NOT TO
CATEGORIZE, BUT TYPICALLY WENT
TO THE LIBERAL PARTY IN THE
PAST.
MOVED, ALL MOVED GREEN, IN
FACT.
RICHARD THOMAS, WHO WAS THE
CANDIDATE, WAS FORMER LIBERAL
CANDIDATE AS WELL.
SO THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF,
UM, OF MOVEMENT FROM THE
LIBERALS TO THE GREEN PARTY IN
THAT PARTICULAR BY-ELECTION.
PIPASING, APPARENTLY A LOT OF
THE SAME THING.
MOVEMENT WAS COMING-- NIPASING,
APPARENTLY A LOT OF SAME TINGE.
MOVEMENT WAS COMING FROM THE
LIBERAL PARTY.
ONLY 3 percent, BUT SAME THING.
IT MADE A DIFFERENCE.

Richard says IF THE PROGRAM LAST WEEK, IN
THE EXCHANGE WITH HOWARD
HAMPTON AND YOU WILL HEAR THIS
GOING THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN OVER
THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, TORIES
WOULD RATHER YOU VOTE FOR THE
GREEN OR IF YOU DEMOCRATS THAN
VOTE FOR THE LIBERALS.
BECAUSE TORIES BELIEVE THE
LIBERALS ARE THE MAIN OPPONENTS
IN THE ELECTION.

Steve says INDEED.
FRANK, COME ON IN.

Frank says WE FEED PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.
I DON'T BELIEVE THE LIB LALS
WILL HAVE A REFERENDUM ON-- WE
NEED PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.
I DON'T BELIEVE THE LIBERALS
WILL HAVE A REFERENDUM ON IT.
I HEARD AT THAT.

Steve says YOU HEARD THAT--

Frank says FOUR DAYS AGO, GREG SOBERA
TOLD ME PERSONALLY THAT THE
LIBERALS WERE NOT PLANNING A
REFERENDUM ON PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.

Steve says IF THE PLATFORM.

Richard says I CAN'T COMMENT ON THE
CONVERSATION YOU HAD, BUT IF
THE PLATFORM.
BUT THE REFERENDUM IS A BINDING
REFERENDUM.

Frank says WELL, LET ME FOE WHEN THIS
REFERENDUM WILL HAPPEN.
I'LL PUT IT IF MY CALENDER.

Ruth says I CERTAINLY THINK THAT
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
WOULD BE AN ASSET.
I THINK THAT'S WHERE GREENS
HAVE GAINED FOOT HOLDS IN
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
BECAUSE THERE SINCE A FIRST
PAST THE POST SYSTEM.
AND I WANTED TO MAKE A POINT
ABOUT THE BY-ELECTIONS YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT.
I THINK IT'S REALLY NOT
ACCURATE TO TRANS POS WHEAFMTS
HAPPENED IN A BY-ELECTION WHERE
THERE'S A PROTEST VOTE AND
PEOPLE FEEL AT THAT THEY'RE
NOT-- THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT AND TALE
MAKE A STATEMENT.
TO SAY THAT THAT-- THAT WILL
HAPPEN PROVINCE WIDE.
BECAUSE THERE'S NO RECORD THAT
HAVE HAPPENING.

Frank says IN BRITISH COLUMBIA, THE
GREENS PULLED 12 percent IN THE LAST ELECTION.

Ruth says AND A VERY LEFT WING GREEN PARTY.

Frank says AND THE GREENS IN ONTARIO
ARE NOT GOING TO WAIT FOR
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION.
NOT SIT AND CRY IN THE GREEN
PEER, BUT FIGHT THIS ELECTION.
WE INTEND TO BE GOVERNMENT.
WE'LL RUN TO WIN.

Steve says HOW LONG HAS THE
GREEN PARTY BEEN RUNNING FOR
SEATS IN ONTARIO?

Frank says OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED IN 1993.

Steve says LAST TIME YOU HAD
CANDIDATES IN 50 RIDING?

Frank says 48 RIDING.
THIS TIME A FULL SLATE.

Steve says HAVE CANDIDATES IN
103 RIDINGS FOR THE NEXT
ELECTION?
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

Frank says BECAUSE WE HAVE 60 SEEKING A
NOMINATION AND I KNOW THERE'S A
LOT 6 NOMINATION MEETINGS
HAPPENING IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF
WEEKS AND WE'LL HAVE A-- A LOT
OF NOM MEETINGS HAPPENING IN
THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS.
AND WE'LL HAVE A FULL SLATE.

Ruth says I KNOW ONE OF THE PROGRAMS
IS TO ABOLISH THE SCHOOL SYSTEM
AND HAVE ONE PUBLIC SCHOOL
SYSTEM.
DO YOU THINK ALL OF THE
CANDIDATES WILL HAVE AT THAT--

Frank says WE'RE FOR THE ABOLISHING THE
CATHOLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM BUT
EXPAND THE SCHOOL SYSTEM TO
OFFER FUND TO GO EDUCATIONAL
SYSTEMS, OF ALL RELIGIONS.
THE, YOU IF ITSELF, RULED THAT
ONTARIO WAS BEING PREJUDICE IGS
IGSAL TO OTHER-- PREJIDICIAL TO
OTHER RELIGIONS.

Ruth says SO YOU--

Frank says WE WOULD REICH ONE PUBLIC
SCHOOL BOARD TO EXPAND AND
DIVERSIFY TO OFFER EDUCATIONAL
TECH FEEK, ANYONE AT THAT WANTS
FUNDING CAN COME UNDER THE
AUSPISIOUS OF ONE LOCAL BOARD.

Ruth says ONE SCHOOL WOULD BE
UNDERED-- FUNDED UNDER THE ONE
ROLE BOARD.

Frank says AND THEY WOULD SHARE
FACILITIES, SHOPS, MUSICAL
STRUMES, COMPUTERS TAX SORT OF
THING.

Ruth says THIS IS THE INCONSISTENCY
THAT I TALKED ABOUT.
YOU'RE HAVING IT BOTH WAYS.
ONE PUBLIC SYSTEM BUT IT WILL
FUND A WHOLE AMOUNT OF OTHER
THINGS.

Steve says A ONE-ISSUE MOVEMENT
AND THEY'VE GOT POSITIONS ON
MORE ISSUES TAN YOU GUYS, FOR
GOOD 'FESS SAKES.
BUT THAT'S SAYING SOMETHING.

Ruth says NO CONSISTENCY AND AN
APPROACH THROUGHOUT THAT.
AND THAT'S THE POINT I WAS
TRYING TO MAKE.

Steve says RICHARD?

Richard says WE'RE IN A WORLD OF LIMITED
RESOURCE THAT IS WE'RE GOING TO
PUT IN-- FOR A EDUCATION AND
YOU EXPAND THE ENVELOPE TO
RECEIVE FUND AND THAT'S MY
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
LET'S GO BACK TO THE
ENVIRONMENT, THOUGH.
I READ A PRESS RELEASE THAT YOU
HAD IN '99 WHERE YOU SAID TO
EXPAND THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT.

Frank says THAT'S-- AT THAT WAS A
TONGUE IN KEEK JOKE.
BECAUSE THE-- EVERY MINISTER
WOULD HAVE E C O L OGICAL
RESPONSIBILITY AND A FOOT PRINT
AS THEIR BASIC.

Richard says IT WAS YOUR ARGUMENT AT THE
TIME THAT YOU WOULD ACHIEVE THE
TAX SYSTEM.
WHAT WE-- WHAT WE NOW TRY TO
GET THROUGH REGULATION.

Frank says A COMBINATION, OF COURSE.

Richard says ON--

Frank says WE WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO
DO THE RIGHT THING WITH A
PROFIT MOTIVE.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT
HEALTH CARE.
HEALTH CARE IS AT THE TOP OF
THE LIST OF EVERYONE'S
CONCERNS.
25 BILLION dollars ON HEALTH CARE NOW
AND YOUR PLAN IS TO INCLUDE
DEMPTION CARE AND LACTATION
CONSULTING, FATUROPOTHY.
HOW MUCH MORE WOULD WE SPEND ON
HEALTH CARE IF ALL OF THOSE
THINGS WERE COVERED IF THE
HEALTH CARE INSURANCE?

Frank says MUCH LESS-- BECAUSE NO
AMOUNT OF MONEY NO, A.M. OF
DOCTORS FORKS AMOUNT OF
PHARMACEUTICALS AND NO MATTER
OF-- NO AMOUNT OF HIGH-TECH
CENTRES WILL HAD MAKE US WELL
SO MANY MUCH IMPUGN
DEFICIENCIES IN THERE.
SO MUCH INCREASED AS A.
THE ONLY-- I AM HUMAN
DEFICIENCIES IN THERE.
SO MUCH INCREASED ASTHMA.
WE FEED ACCESS TO CLEAN FOOD,
WATER AND AIR.
REDUCE THE WORK WEEKS.
FOUR-DAY WORK WEEKS.
HOLISTIC HEALTH CARE.
THEN DOWN WILL GO THE HEALTH
CARE BUDGETS IF--

Ruth says OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME ?
I THINK ANY OF US HERE COULD
HAVE SAID AT THAT.
POINT IS--

Frank says LAST TIME YOU PLANTED A TREE
WAS 20 YEARS AGO.
SECOND BEST TIME TODAY.
WHY HAVE WE NOT MOVED?
WHAT IS MOVING US TOWARDS
PREVENTIVE HEALTH?

Ruth says CERTAINLY I WOULD AGREE THAT
WE SHOULD MOVE IN THAT
DIRECTION.
BECAUSE STEVE SAYS AFTER THE
FIX ELECTION, YOU'RE GOING TO
FUND ALL OF THESE DESIRABLE
THINGS.

Frank says THAT'S CORRECT.

Ruth says BUT AT THE SAME TIME BACK TO
THE ENVIRONMENT WHEN YOU LOOK
AT FORMER INDUSTRIAL SITES, I
WAS INTERESTED, THE MOST RECENT
PRESS RELEASE SAID YOU WOULD
OFFER GREATER FINANCIAL
INCENTIVES AND REDUCE LIABILITY
RISKS AND DEMAND MORE ACCOUNT
BITLS FROM FIRMS THAT PRODUCE WASTE.
YOU'RE BACK TO THAT THE MARKET
IS GOING TO CHANGE POLICY.
THE REVENUE IS NOT GOING TO BE
THERE.
TO-- TO DO THE KIND OF HEALTH
CARE SYSTEM WE NOW HAVE, LET A
ALORN THE NEW ONES.

Frank says WE WOULD LIKE TO-- THIS IS
ALL PART OF A REVENUE-FUTURE
RAL SHIFT ON TO POLLUTING
TECHNOLOGIES AND RESOURCE
SQUANDERING AND SO THAT ----
THERE'S MONEY AVAILABLE.
LOOK, ERNIE EVES' GAVE 650 million TO
THE CAR CULTURE AND 60 MILLION
TO DIRTY ELECTRICITY.
THERE'S BILLIONS AND BILLIONS 6
DOLLARS GOING TO AGGRAVATE FOR
THE HEALTH CARE PROBLEMS.
WE PAY FOR ELECTRICITY THREE
TIMES.
ONCE ON THE ELECTRICITY BILL
AND ONCE IN THE SUBSIDIES AND
ONCE IN THE HEALTH CARE COST.
WE SHOULD PAY ONCE.
WE NEED TO INTERNALIZE TEASE
EXTERNALIZED COSTS AND HAVE ONE
BILL.
HAVE IT MARKET-- THESE
EXTERNALIZED COSTS AND HAVE ONE
BILL AND GET PEOPLE TO REUSE
AND RECYCLED.

Ruth says NOT POWER?

Frank says WE THINK THAT GREEN POWER IS
DECENTRALIZED.
SHOULD BE HUNDREDS THE--
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF GREEN
ELECTRICITY PRODUCERS AROUND
THE PROVINCE.

Bev says YOU SUPPORT PRIVATIZING HYDRO ONE.

Frank says THE GRID SHOULD STAY PUBLIC
BUT THE--

Steve says I HAVE TO JUMP IN HERE.
BUT THIS KICK-STARTED A
WONDERFUL DEBATE.
WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK FOR THE
ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
FRANK DE JONG OF THE GREEN
PARTY.
TO YOU THREE, THANK YOU FOR
YOUR PARTICIPATION AS WELL.
THAT'S “4TH READING” THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2003, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Greening Ontario