Transcript: Healing Healthcare | Feb 09, 2003

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON “4TH
READING,” TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.
CANADA'S PREMIERS RELUCTANTLY
ACCEPT OTTAWA FINAL OFFER ON
HEALTH CARE DOLLARS.

Steve, Ruth, and Richard sit with a guest around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a beige coat over a burgundy polo shirt.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.
Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
YOU'RE WATCHING “4TH READING.”
IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE WE
HEARD THE ANALOGY OF THE PROVER
PROVERBIAL LOAF OF BREAD GET
USED LIKE IT DID THIS WEEK.
PREMIERS WANT FEDERAL HEALTH
CARE BREAD FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
THEY GOT SOMETHING AKIN TO HALF
OR TWO THIRDS OF THE LOAFAED
GOOD SIZED CHUNK OF BREAD.
BUT NOT ENOUGH IN ONTARIO'S FEW
TO FEED OUR GROWING PROVINCIAL
FAMILY.
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THIS DEAL
MAKE IF YOU NEED HEALTH CARE IN
ONTARIO NOW?

A clip plays in which a man in his sixties says
I'M VERY PLEASED TO TELL THE
CANADIAN PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE
REACHED AN AGREEMENT ON
FUNDAMENTAL REFORM OF OUR
HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Clips show different premiers sitting at a long table to sign the agreement. The flags of the provinces hang in the background.

Steve says AFTER HOURS OF
INTENSE NEGOTIATIONS, JEAN
CHRETIEN AND CANADA'S PREMIERS
SIGNED AN ACCORD AIMED AT
FIXING HEALTH CARE IN CANADA.
HERE'S WHAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS AGREED TO...

A slate appears on screen, with the title “First Minister’s Health Accord.”
It shows that the agreement includes 17.3 billion dollars over 3 years rising to 34.8 billion dollars over 5 years.

Steve says THE PLAN PROVIDES BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS For diagnostic services, catastrophic drug coverage, expanded home care, and an independent watchdog to control spending.

Now a man speaks in an interview.
A caption reads “Michael Decter. Canadian Institute of Health Information.”
Michael is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair.

He says IT PROVIDES THE FUND-- THE
FUNDING AND SOME REAL
DIRECTION.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN MY
VIEW IS THE NATIONAL COUNCIL
AND THE ANNUAL REPORT CARD.
BECAUSE THIS WILL LET US
MEASURE WHETHER WE'RE ACTUALLY
IMPROVING THE HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM OR NOT.

Steve says THE PROVINCES,
PARTICULARLY ONTARIO, WERE
DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED WITH THE
DEAL.
SAYING THAT IT FALLS FAR SHORT
WHAT HAVE THEY NEED TO FIX
THEIR AILING HEALTH CARE
SYSTEMS.

In a statement, Ernie Eves says WITH RESPECT TO NEW HEALTH
CARE FUND REFORM, WE BELIEVE
THAT THERE IS ABOUT HALF THE
MONEY THAT ROMANOW RECOMMENDS
DELIVERED OVER THE NEXT THREE
YEARS.
SO NEEDLESS TO SAY, UM, FROM
OUR PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS A STEP
IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
BUT IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT
RESOLVE THE ISSUE.

Now Tony Clement speaks to the press.
A caption reads “Tony Clement. Ontario Health Minister.”
Clement is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair and glasses.

He says IN TERMS OF NEW DEDICATED
FUNDING, UM, FOR THE PRIORITY
AREAS THAT ROY ROMANOW HAD
EINFLUENCE ATED IN HIS REPORT.
MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT--
ENUNCIATED IN HIS REPORT, MY
UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT'S
ABOUT 7 BILLION, AND NOT THE
15 BILLION dollars THAT ROMANOW SAID.

Steve says HOWEVER, THE LIBERAL FINANCE
CRITIC SAYS THAT IT'S A
SIGNIFICANT STEP.

The caption changes to "Gerry Phillips. Liberal Finance Critic."
Gerry is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair.

He says IT'S A FAIR AMOUNT OF MONEY.
PEOPLE SHOULD RECOGNIZE.
THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
HAVE PUT ABOUT NOW 4 BILLION dollars
INTO ONTARIO FOR HEALTH CARE.

The caption changes to "Shelley Martel. NDP Health Critic."
Shelley is in her late forties, with short wavy chestnut hair.

She says I THINK IT'S A FIRST STEP TO
TAKING US DOWN THE ROAD T
IMPLEMENTS SOME OF THE
RECOMMENDATIONS THAT ROMANOW MADE.
BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE MONEY.
FRANKLY, IT WILL REQUIRE THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ENSURING
THAT THE PROVINCES PUT THE
MONEY WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE.

Steve says JEAN CHRETIEN SAYS
IT'S A GOOD DEAL FOR THE PROVINCES.

In a statement, Chrétien, in his sixties, says TODAY, CANADIANS WILL BE
CONFIDENT OF FEDERAL AND
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE
PROVIDED FOR AED MODERNIZED,
SUSTAINABLE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM
FOR THE 21ST CENTURY.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says LESS US NALZ THAT
BOAST OF THE PRIME MINISTERS
WITH MICHAEL DECTER.
FORMER DEPUTY MINISTER OF
HEALTH FOR THE CANADIAN ONTARIO
AND CHAIRMAN FOR THE CANADIAN
INSTITUTE OF HEALTH, A
NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION.
ON THE OTHER SIDE, RUTH GRIER,
FORMER HEALTH MINISTER FOR THE
NDP GOVERNMENT AND RICHARD
MAHONEY.
THIS WEEK, JOHN MATHSON, ONCE A
POLITICAL STAR WITH THE MIKE
HARRIS GOVERNMENT.
NOW A PRINCIPAL WITH THE
GOVERNMENT RELATIONS FIRM OF
STRATEGY CORPS.
WELCOME, EVERYONE, TO THE “4TH
READING” TABLE.
MICHAEL DE C TER TO YOU, FIRST.
WE GET CAUGHT IN UP BILLIONS
HERE AND BILLIONS THERE ASK WE
LOSE THE FOREST THROUGH THE
TREES HERE.
A SIMPLE QUESTION TO GET US
STARTED WITH: WILL THIS
AGREEMENT MAKE OUR HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Michael Decter. Canadian Institute of Health Information.”
Decter is wearing a gray suit, lilac shirt, and gray tie.

He says I HOPE SO.
WHAT IS STRIKING IS HOW MUCH
AGREEMENT THERE WAS ABOUT
DIRECTION.
YOU DIDN'T HEAR ANY OF THE
PREMIERS SAYING THAT THIS
AGREEMENT TAKES US THE WRONG
DIRECTION.
THE WHOLE ARGUMENT WAS, IS
THERE ENOUGH MONEY TO GET US
THERE?
AND IT-- THAT'S AN ARGUMENT
THAT WILL GO ON.
THERE'S NO END TO THAT.
BUT THERE ARE SOME VERY
IMPORTANT ELEMENTS TO THIS.
THAT GOT A LITTLE LOST SIGHT
OF.
FOR THE FIRST TIME, HOME CARE,
CATASTROPHIC DRUG COVERAGE, AND
PRIMARY CARE REFORM HAVE SOME
SERIOUS DOLLARS ATTACHED TO
THEM.
IN A NATIONAL AGREEMENT.

Steve says LET'S TAKE THAT THE
NEXT STEP THEN.
WILL WAITING LISTS GET SHORTER
AS A RESULT OF THIS AGREEMENT?

Daniel says UM, I BELIEVE THEY WILL.
THAT-- THAT THE BEST PART OF
THIS AGREEMENT IN MY HUMBLE
VIEW IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE A NATIONAL COUNCIL DOING
ANNUAL REPORT CARDS SO MANY WE
SHOULD, WITHIN A FEW YEARS,
KNOW HOW LONG THE WAIT TIMES
ARE.
AND WHETHER THEY ARE GETTING
SHORTER.

Steve says NOW, THAT SPEAKS TO
THE ACCOUNTABILITY PROVISIONS
OF THIS AGREEMENT.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT WAS SO
IMPORTANT TO GET THAT HEALTH
COUNCIL CREATED THAT WILL
REVIEW THE SYSTEM?

Daniel says WELL, I MEAN, LET'S LOOK TWO
AND-A-HALF YEARS BACK,
SEPTEMBER OF 2000.
THE-- THE SAME PRIME MINISTER
AND-- AND SOME OF THE SAME
PREMIERS MADE A DEAL TO PUT 3.4
BILLION IN AND FRANKLY, TWO
AND-A-HALF YEARS LATER, NO ONE
REALLY KNOWS WHAT-- WHAT IT
ACCOMPLISHED.
BECAUSE THERE-- THERE WASN'T
ANY INDEPENDENT MEASUREMENT OF IT.
SO-- SO WE KNOW THAT-- THAT,
FOR EXAMPLE, THAT-- THAT SOME
OF THE MONEY THAT WAS SUPPOSED
TO-- TO BUY IMAGING EQUIPMENT
WAS APPARENTLY SPENT IN NEW
BRUNSWICK TO BUY LAWN MOWERERS.
THAT'S NOT VERY ENCOURAGING.
I THINK THE PUBLIC-- LAWN
MOWERS.
THAT'S NOT VERY ENCOURAGING.
THINK THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW
WHETHER THE HEALTH DOLLARS ARE
BUYING KNEE REPLAIFMS OR LAWN
MOWERS.

Steve says WE NEED TO KNOW THE
ACCOUNTABILITY OF THIS.
DO YOU SUPPOSE AT THE EN OF THE
DAY WE'LL BE A HEALTHIER
POPULATION, AGAIN, AS A RESULT
OF THE AGREEMENT REACHED.

Daniel says SOME OF THE AGREEMENT GOT NO
ATTENTION, AND IT WAS HEALTHIER
NATION AND EFFORTS ON
ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND
NATIONAL IMMUNIZATION STRATEGY
AND HEALTHIER LIVING.
THOSE THINGS HAVE MORE TO DO
WITH HOW HEALTHY WE ARE THAN
ALL OF THE BILLIONS GOING INTO
TREATMENT.
I MEAN, WE NEED BILLIONS GOING
INTO TREATMENT.
THERE ARE WAIT TIMES.
BUT WE ALSO NEED AN AGENDA
AROUND A HEALTHIER NATION.
AND-- AND THERE ARE SOME GOOD
ELEMENTS OF THAT.
IF-- IF MINISTERS FOLLOW
THROUGH ON IT.

Steve says LET ME TALK TO ONE
FORMER MINISTER THAT I ANY YOU
KNOW RELATIVELY WELL.
THIS MIGHT BE THE FIRST TIME,
MRS. GRIER THAT, YOUR DEPUTY
MINISTER GOT ASKED TO TALK
ABOUT THE ISSUE BEFORE THE
MINISTER YOURSELF.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I'M SORRY.
HE QUITE OFTEN SPOKE BEFORE ME.

Steve says HE DID?
GIVE US YOUR IMPRESSION.
MR. EVES ISN'T HAPPY WITH THE
AGREEMENT.
AND SOME PEOPLE HE SHOULD HAVE
LEFT THE ROOM AND SHOULDN'T
HAVE TAKEN IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T
VERY GOOD AND DIDN'T-- ISN'T
WHAT HE WANTED.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Ruth says I THINK IT'S MORE ABOUT MONEY.
MICHAEL SAID THERE'S A
FUNDAMENTAL AGREEMENT ON THE
DIRECTION, AND I HEARD ON THE
COVERAGE REALLY NO DISCUSSION
OF DIRECTION.
ONLY A DISCUSSION OF HOW MUCH.
BUT THE MONEY, AS MR. ROMANOW
TOLD US, WAS A TOOL TO
FUNDAMENTALLY REFORM THE
SYSTEM.
WHILE THE PRIME MINISTER'S
QUOTED AS SAYING THAT'S WHAT
HAPPENED.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THERE'S
NO GUARANTEE IN THE ARNMENT
THAT IS HAVE BEEN AGREED UPON,
AND IT'S NOT EVEN A SIGNED
DEAL,-- IN THE ARRANGEMENT THAT
IS-- HAS BEEN AGREED UPON, AND
IT'S NOT EVEN A SIGNED DEAL, IF
THE THINGS THAT ARE THERE WILL
BE REMOVED.
ROMANOW SAID WE ALL NEED TO
AGREE ON A SYSTEM OF VALUES, A
COVENANT ABOUT A
PUBLICLY-FUNDED,
PUBLICLY-DIRECTED HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM.
I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THIS
AGREEMENT THAT REASSURES
CANADIANS THAT THAT'S, IN FACT,
THE WAY IN WHICH THIS MONEY
WILL BE SPENT.

Steve says WHEN RUBBER HITS THE
ROAD, IT'S NOT IN THE AGREEMENT.
WHICH YOU THEREFORE HAVE LEFT
THE TABLE AND NOT SIGNED ON?

Ruth says NO, NOBODY WILL LEAVE THE
TABLE WHEN THERE'S MONEY ON IT.
TO EVEN PRETEND THEY'RE NOT
GOING TO TAKE IT IS FOOLISH.
IT'S HOW THAT MONEY GETS SPENT.
FACT THAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS NOT AT THIS
POINT INSISTED THAT IT BE SPENT
IN THE WAY IN WHICH MR. ROMANOW
OUTLINED, WHICH IS THE WAY IN
WHICH TO PROTECT OUR SYSTEM.

Steve says THREE TELLER EARLY TO
LEADERS DIDN'T LIKE THIS
AGREEMENT VERY MUCH.
NOBODY HAS TO SIGN IT.
BUT THEY CAME OUT AND SAID IT STUNK.
IF YOU WERE THE LEADER OF THE
PROVINCIAL OF ONTARIO, WOULD
YOU HAVE WALKED AWAY FROM THE
TABLE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT?
THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR US?

The caption changes to "John Matheson. Ontario PC Advisor."
John is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with longish brown hair and glasses. He’s wearing a black coat and black shirt.

He says NOT AT ALL.
I MEAN, THIS DEAL-- IT'S BETTER
THAN A KICK IN THE PANTS.
I MEAN, THERE'S CERTAINLY A LOT
OF MONEY THERE.
I THINK THE REAL CONCERN ABOUT
THE DEAL ISN'T, THOUGH, JUST
THE ABSENCE OF THE MONEY.
JUST THAT THERE'S AN
EXPECTATION THAT BEEN BUILT IN
THAT THERE'S AN ENHANCEMENT OF
SERVICES AS WELL A CONTINUED
MAINTENANCE OR IMPROVEMENT OF
THE THINGS THAT RE ALREADY DO.
I THINK WHAT'S TROUBLING ABOUT
THIS IS THAT WITH ALL THE NEW
THINGS THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO
BE STARTING UP, THE ENHANCED
HOME CARE AND THE CATASTROPHIC
DRUG PROTECTION AND THAT SORT
OF THING, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH
MONEYED TO DO WHAT ROMANOW HAD
ON THAT AND AS WELL AS
MAINTAINING THE CORE SERVICES
THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.
SO I SEE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM
WITH THIS DEAL IS THE
EXPECTATION GAP.
BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT MR.
MARTIN WILL BE THE NEW GUY TO
TALK TO.
THERE WILL BE MORE FEDERAL
MONEY THERE.
AND IN THE WORDS OF
SCHWARZENEGGER, WE'LL BE BACK,
YOU KNOW?

Steve says THAT IS A GOOD POINT.
EVERYONE SAID SO FAR, OKAY,
CHRETIEN IS LEAVING IN A YEAR
AND WE'LL REVIEW THIS WHEN
PRESUMABLY PAUL MARTIN TAKES
OVER AFTER THAT S THAT A GOOD
STRATEGY AT THIS STAGE?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says IT SEEM THAT WLFER WE DEPEAR
AS A NATION TO TALK ABOUT THE
ISSUE MOST IMPORTANT TO ALL OF
US IT, ENDS UP BECOMING A
WRANGLE OVER MONEY.
BETWEEN THE FEDERAL POLITICIAN
WHO IS HAVE TAX PARENTEAU MONEY
AND THE PROVINCIAL TOLL TIGS--
POLITICIAN WHO IS HAVE THE SAME
TAXPAYERS' MONEY.
TOO MUCH OF THE FOCUS AND
COVERAGE IS ON-- HALF A L OAF
OR TWO THIRDS A LOAF OR
WHATEVER.
I THINK THAT THERE WAS A--
THERE WAS A, UM, THAT THERE'S
SOME VERY, VERY PROMISING SIGNS
IN THERE FOR THE FUTURE.
BOTH IN TERMS OF THE FUTURE
FEDERAL-PROVINCE WRANGLES THAT
YOU REFERENCE WITH FUTURE PRIME
MINISTERS, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF
OUR CARE.
THE FOCUS ON HOME CARE AND
PRIMARY CARE IS A GOOD THING.
A LOT OF THE REVENUES OF THIS
DEAL GO TO ENHANCEMENTS OF THE
SYSTEM RATHER THAN INCREASING
HOSPITAL CARE AND DOCTOR CARE,
WHICH IS-- WE HAVE ESSENTIALLY
HAVE OUR MEDICARE SYSTEM IS A
HOSPITAL CARE AND DOCTOR CARE
SYSTEM.
NOT ENOUGH OF THIS DEAL, MIND
YOU, UM, GOES TO-- AND THIS
WILL BE THE NEXT
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL WRANGLE I
HOPE, TO TRULY REFORMING THE
SYSTEM.
SO MAKE SURE, FOR EXAMPLE THAT,
WE HAVE PRIMARY CARE THAT
INVOLVES A WHOLE BUNCH OF
PROFESSIONALS THAT WE CAN
ACCESS 24 HOURS A DAY, NURSE
AND NURSE PRACTITIONERS AND DOCTORS.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP WITH
THAT WITH MICHAEL DECTER.
IF I WERE A DOCTOR IN ONTARIO
TODAY AND I SAW THE BUCKETFULS
OF MONEY THAT WERE ABOUT TO
COME TO THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT
COURTESY OF THEIR FEDERAL
COLLEAGUES, WHAT WOULD TOP STOP
ME FROM SAYING TO THE ONTARIO
MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, GO FOR IT,
BABY.
GO FOR IT.

Daniel says THEY WON'T DO THAT, WILL THEY?

Ruth says NOTHING WOULD STOP THEM.

Daniel says IT WOULD BE MORE SURPRISING
AS OSCAR WILDE SAID ON BEING
TOLD NIAGARA FALLS WAS ONE OF
THE SEVEN NATURAL WONDERS IN
THE WORLD.
HE SAID IT WOULD BE A GREATER
WONDER IF THE WATER DIDN'T
FLOW.
THEY MAY GO FOR THE GOVERNMENT
FOR ALL ITS WORTH.
THEY ALWAYS DO.
THAT WON'T CHANGE.
BUT LET'S PUSH BACK A LITTLE
BIT ON TWO ISSUES.
ONE, IT'S BECOME FASHIONABLE
TO-- TO BE CRITICAL OF THE
PRIME MINISTER.
IT'S NOT PROVIDING MUCH
LEADERSHIP.
HE WAS LIKE GORDIE HOWE, UM,
IN-- IN THIS ONE.
HE WAS LIKE THE AGING MASTER OF
THE GAME.

Steve says ELBOWS UP.

Daniel says BIG ELBOWS.
TOUGH IN THE CORNER.
BUT HE GOT A DEAL.
AND HE DIDN'T GIVE AWAY THE
STORE FINANCIALLY.
AND I THINK HE WAS RIGHT NOT
TO.
BUT THE MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT OF
HIS GOVERNMENT, WITH PAUL
MARTIN'S HELP WAS TO GET US
BACK INTO SOME KIND OF FISCAL
SANITY.
HE GAVE MOST OF THE SURPLUS TO
HEALTH CARE.
BUT NOT ALL OF IT.
YOU KNOW, HE KEPT SOME BACK.
THERE ARE SOME OTHER
PRIORITIES.
WE DON'T KNOW.
WE'RE IN A RATHER UNCERTAIN
TIME.
I LIKE THE BONUS PROVISION.
BONUS PROVISION SAYS IF THERE'S
MORE MONEY NEXT YEAR, THE
PROVINCIALS GET ANOTHER 2 BILLION dollars.
IT'S THAT--

Ruth says DON'T YOU THINK HE COULD
HAVE APPLIED MORE STRINGS TO IT
AND SAID TO THE PROVINCES, IN
ONTARIO NOW COULD SAY, WE'RE
DOING CATASTROPHIC DRUGS, WE'RE
DOING HOME CARE.
WE'RE DOING 24 HOUR COVERAGE.
THANK YOU, WE'LL TAKE THE MONEY
AND IT WILL GO BACK INTO TAX
CUTS.

Daniel says HERE'S THE DILEMMA.
16 BILLION dollars IS IN THE FUNNELED
FOR THE NEW STUFF.
FOR THE REFORM STUFF.
IS IN THE FUND FOR THE NEW STUFF.
FOR THE REFORM STUFF.
BUT ONTARIO CAN SAY WE'RE DOING
CATASTROPHIC DRUGS.
QUEBEC CAN SAY WE'VE GOT A
UNIVERSAL DRUG PLAN AND THE
ATLANTIC PROVINCES DON'T HAVE
ANYTHING.
SO YOU'VE GOT A DILEMMA THAT IT
DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR QUEBEC
TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON THEIR
DRUG PLAN THAN THEY'RE ALREADY
SPENDING.
IT'S ACTUALLY A UNIVERSAL,
QUITE HIGH-QUALITY DRUG PLAN SO
MANY THEY SAID, WE NEED SOME
FLEXIBLE.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO SPEND
SOME OF THAT MONEY ON SOMETHING
DIFFERENT THAN THE DRUG PLAN.
SO-- SO, YOU KNOW, SO THE PRIME
MINISTER WAS FACED WITH THE
REALITY THAT DID-- THAT THERE
IS SOME DIFFERENCE ACROSS THE
COUNTRY.
AND-- AND, YOU KNOW, COULD THEY
HAVE PUT MORE STRINGS ON IT?
I THINK THERE'S A BREAKING
POINT.
WHERE THE PROVINCES SAY, LOOK,
WE'RE TAXING FOR, FOR 70 TO 80 percent
OF THE SPENDING.
NOW, WE'RE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW,
AND WE, WE ARE SENIOR
GOVERNMENTS NOW.
WE DO GET, AND I THINK YOU
WOULD HAVE SAID IT AS A
MINISTER, WE DO GET TO MAKE
SOME OF THESE CHOICES WITHIN
THE UMBRELLA OF THE CANADA
HEALTH ACT.
SO IF YOU LOOK BACK IN 2000,
80 percent WAS UNCONDITIONAL.
20 percent HAD STRINGS ON IT.
THIS TIME, IT'S ABOUT 50-50.

Steve says I WANT TO PUT YOUR
COMMENTS THAT THE PRIME
MINISTER'S DOING BASICALLY A
PRETTY GOOD JOB BEING THE
STEWARD OF THE HEALTH CARE
BEOMETH IN THIS COUNTRY.
I WANT TO PUT IT TO JOHN
MATHESON.
BECAUSE THE PM SAID-- BECAUSE
THE PREMIER SAID THAT THE PM
HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE
THE HEALTH CARE, AND HE DIDN'T
CHOOSE TO DO SO.

John says HE SAID THAT HE'S LIKE
GORDIE HOWE.
HE REMIND ME OF COLONEL KURTZ
AT THE END OF “APOCALYPSE NOW.”
AN OLD GUY WHO IS UNSOUND.
YOU HAVE IN THE PRIME MINISTER
A ONE-MAN GOOD COP-BAD COP
ROUTINE.
HE COME IN AND SAYING HE'LL BE
GENEROUS.
WALKS AROUND-- YOU HERE KLEIN
TALKING ABOUT HOW INSTEAD, UM,
HE-- HE REVEALS A DARK SIDE
WHICH HASN'T BEEN SEEN BEFORE.
UM, YOU KNOW, ONE CAN ONLY
IMAGINE WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN
LIKE APPROACHING HIS LAIER
THERE.
AND AT THE END OF THE DAY
THERE, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WAS
AN EXERCISE IN STEWARD SHIP SO
MUCH AS IN LEADERSHIP POLITICS,
FEDERAL LEADERSHIP POLITICS
AND--

Richard says PERHAPS IN RECENT MONTHS
I'VE BEEN RELUCTANT TO JUMP TO
THE PRIME MINISTER'S DEFENCE,
BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS-- IF
IT'S ERNIE EVES AND RALPH KLEIN
AND TELLING ME THAT PRIME
MINISTER-- OR GORDON CAMPBELL
FOR THAT MATTER, I FEEL A
LITTLE BIT BETTER ABOUT WHAT IT WAS.
THE ONLY THING I WOULD LIKE TO
SEE, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE
STRINGS, MICHAEL TELLS US ABOUT
5050 IN THIS DEAL, BECAUSE I
DON'T TRUST—50-50 IN THIS
DEAL, BECAUSE I DON'T TRUST A
WHOLE LOT OF PROVINCIAL
PREMIERS, NOT ONLY OUR OWN, TO
PLAY WITH THE FUTURE OF HEALTH
CARE.

Steve says WHY NOT?

Richard says BECAUSE IN MINISTER EVES
CASE, WHEN HE CAMPAIGNED FOR
THE LEADERSHIP, HE HAD
CASH-FIRST FRONT OF THE LINE
SYSTEM.
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, JUST TWO WEEKS AGO
WHEN THE RUMOURS WERE OUT ABOUT
HOW MUCH MONEY WOULD COME.
8 BILLION DOLLARS COMING,
HE, WHEN ASKED IF HE WOULD USE
ALL OF THAT MONEY FOR HEALTH
CARE, HE SAID THAT HE WOULD USE
IT TO HELP REPAY FOR THE HEALTH
CARE MONEY THEY SPEND.
SO JUST SOME OF THE MONEY THAT
THEY'RE ABOUT TO GET FROM THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WON'T BE
SPENT AS WE WANT IT TO ON
HEALTH CARE.

Steve says WHAT MAKES A FEDERAL
POLITICIAN ANYMORE, ANY BETTER
A STEWARD OF THE HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM THAN A PROVINCIAL
POLITICIAN?

Ruth says NOTHING NECESSARILY.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ANY OF
THEM DID WHAT-- LET ME COME
BACK TO, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT EDIE
DID WHEN SHE WAS MINISTER OF
HEALTH.
WHICH IS CLEARLY ENUNCIATE THE
VALUES AND PRINCIPLES THAT
BUILT OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM
AND I THINK WHAT WE REMEMBER
HUNGRY FOR IS CANADIANS SAYING,
MR. ROMANOW GOT IT RIGHT.
HE LISTENED AND COMPROMISED AND
IT'S A FAIRLY CONSERVATIVE
REPORT AND IT SHOULD BE
PUBLICLY FUNDED AND BUILDING ON
WHAT WE'VE GOT.
THERE NOTHING HERE THAT
PREVENTS ERNIE EVES, AS RICHARD
JUST SAID, FROM GOING AHEAD
WITH HIS PROPOSALS FOR
PRIVATELY-RUN, PROFIT-MAKING,
DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES.
THAT'S THE BIG PROBLEM FOR ME
IN THIS WHOLE THING.

Richard says A LITTLE BIT OF GOSSIP FROM THE TABLE.
APPARENTLY, UM, THERE WAS A
PROPOSAL ON THE TABLE TO
INCLUDE BOTH HOME CARE AND
DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES IN THE, UM,
IN THE SORT OF CANADA HEALTH
ACT, LIKE BRING IT INTO THE
PUBLIC SYSTEM.
AND THE-- AND THE PREMIER THAT
OBJECTED MOSTLY TO-- TO HAVING
DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES, MRI'S AND
CAT SCANS AND THOSE PRIVATE
CLINICS BROUGHT INTO THE PUBLIC
CANADA HEALTH ACT SYSTEM WAS
OUR PREMIER ERNIE EVES.

Steve says HOW COME?

Richard says I SUSPECT THAT WE HAVE A
PLAN IN THIS PROVINCE, HE HAS A
PLAN TO HAVE A BUNCH OF
PRIVATELY-RUN CLIN PICKS AND
WOULDN'T WANT ANY FEDERAL
CONSTRAINTS ON HIS PLAN TO HAVE
PRIVATELY-RUN CLINICS.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK
TO THAT?

Daniel says ROMANOW SAID TWO THINGS.
PUT ONE AND-A-HALF BILLION INTO
DIAGNOSTICS TO BUILD OUT THE
PUBLIC SYSTEM.
THE OTHER ONE IS REQUIRE IT TO
BE UNDER THE CANADA HEALTH ACT RULES.
DEAL DOES HALF OF THAT.
IT DOES PUT UP THE MONEY.
DOES PUT SOME MONITORING IN
PLACE.
IT DOES NOT PUT HOME CARE OR
DIAGNOSTICS UNDER THE HAD
CANADA HEALTH ACT.
UM, I'M SADDENED BY THAT.
I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME THAT--
THAT WE DID PUT THOSE NEW
SERVICES UNDER.
BUT IT'S-- AN ISSUE IN WHICH OF
THE RIGHT AND LEFT COALESCE.
THE LEFT IS WORRIED ABOUT
OPENING UP THE HEALTH ACT
BECAUSE THEY THINK SOMEBODY
WILL DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH IT.
RIGHT DON'T WANT ANYTHING MORE
ADDED TO IT.
AND THE CENTRE ISN'T BIG
ENOUGH.
SO...

John says THE NEW INITIATIVES IN
BETTER MEASUREMENT AND BETTER
BENCHMARKING.
ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS
THAT WE'VE HAD I THINK IN
TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN
CANADA IS JUST A LACK OF HARD
INFORMATION THAT YOU CAN GO TO
AND RELY ON KNOWING WHAT'S
GOING ON.
INSTEAD OF WE HAVE A LOT OF
HEART-BASED ARGUMENTS THAT YOU
GET OUT OF PEOPLE LIKE SHIRLEY
DOUGLAS.
YOU CAN ADMIRE HER FOR THE
HEART.
BUT WE'RE LOOKING FOR A BRAIN
AND BETTER WAYS FOR APPLICATION
IN THE SYSTEM.
I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE
INFORMATION COMING OUT OF THAT
SYSTEM.

Richard says I AGREE WITH JOHN AND MICHAEL.
I THINK THERE'S A REASON WE
WANT THINGS LIKE HOME CARE AND
DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES.
MRI'S AND CAT SCANS IN THE
CANADA HEALTH ACT.
BECAUSE THE CANADA HEALTH ACT
HAS FIVE PRINCIPLES THAT WE
AGREE TO TO FORM THE HEALTH
CARE SYSTEM.
PUBLIC, NO USER FEES AND
PORTABLE.
THAT IT'S UNIVERSAL AND
ACCESSIBLE.
AND-- AND IF WE WOULD HAVE HOME
CARE, THE WAY WE WOULD WANT IT
TO BE, WHICH MEANS WHEN WE'RE
SICK OR DYING, WE HAVE THE
RIGHT TO DO IT IN OUR HOME.
IF WE HAD THAT AS AN UNIVERSAL,
ACCESSIBLE PORTABLE RIGHT TO
TAKE PROVINCE TO PROVINCE.
I GOT SICK ON A RECENT SKI TRIP
OUT WEST AND THERE'S STILL NO
PORTABILITY IN BETWEEN HEALTH
SERVICES IN BETWEEN THE
PROVINCES.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO CASH THE
SYSTEM AND THEN GO BACK.
I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE TO-- NOT
TO BRING THOSE IN.
AND HOPEFULLY, WHAT-- THE
GENIUS OF ROMANOW IS THAT HE
RECOMMENDED BRINGING IN
DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES AND
BRINGING-- LIKE MRI'S AND CAT
SCANS AND BRINGING IN HOME CARE
INTO THE CANADA HEALTH ACT.
I THINK WE SHOULD DO THAT.

Ruth says AND I AGREE WITH JOHN THAT--
THAT THIS ACCOUNTABILITY AND
THE MECHANISMS AND-- AND THE
MEASUREMENT IS-- IS IMPORTANT.
BUT I'M CONCERNED THAT THAT'S
GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO PUT
INTO PLACE AND TAKE FOREVER TO
PUT IN PLACE.
AND I GUESS WHERE I AM CORNER
IS THAT WHAT MR. ROMANOW HAS
DONE IS-- IS INFORMED AND
ENERGIZED THE CANADIANS.
AND SO-- SO THAT THERE IS NOW
GOING TO BE, I HOPE, SCRUTINY
AND ALL OF OUR LEADERS, WHETHER
IT BE GORDON CAMPBELL LIBERALS
OR ERNIE EVES TORIES WILL BE
HELD TO WHAT CANADIANS HAVE HAD
TO FIND FOR THEM AS WHAT THEY
WANT IN A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Steve says NOW THE LAST 30
SECOND TO MICHAEL DECTER.
WELCOME SOME POLITICAL ADVICE
TO THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO.
WE'LL HAVE AN ELECTION SOON.
DID HEALTH CARE JUST GET TAKEN
OFF THE TABLE WITH THE
PROVINCIAL-- WITH THE ELECTION
ON THIS--

Daniel says GOVERNMENTS LOOK FORWARD.
GOVERNMENTS TEND TO BE JUDGED
WHAT HAD THEY'VE DONE WHILE IN
OFFICE.
SO I THINK THAT ISSUE IS STILL
THERE OF-- TO BE DEBATED.
I THINK THAT-- THAT THERE'S
ENOUGH FLEXIBILITY ON THIS
ISSUE.
I THINK THE PANEL-- IT WILL
PHENOM WHAT THE PROVINCES DO.
WITH THE MONEY.
YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GOT THE
FLEXIBILITY THEY WINTERED.
WHICH IS FINE.
BUT NOW THEY'VE GOT TO BE
MEASURED BY WHAT THEY PUT INTO
PLACE.
SO-- SO--

Steve says MICHAEL, NOTIFY
FLEXIBILITY LEFT AS IT COMES TO
THE CLOCK.
BUT THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY.
THANKS FOR THE THREE OF YOU AS WELL.
WE HAVE ONE MORE ITEM FOR
EVERYONE'S INTEREST AND
CONSIDERATION THIS WEEK.
NAMELY, WHAT WE JUST TALKED
ABOUT, THE TIMING OF THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION.
WE HAVE THE LATEST ON THAT IN
“BACK ROOM 411.”

(Music plays)
A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says ROB AND SUSANNA,
WELCOME BACK WITH ANOTHER LOOK
AT IN THE BACK ROOMS.
LOOK AT THE TWO OPTION THAT IS
THE PREMIER OF ONTARIO IS
CONSIDERING AS WE SPEAK.

A caption reads "Susanna Kelley. Queen's Park Bureau Chief."
Susanna is in her forties, with short wavy blond hair. She’s wearing a red and black tailored suit, and a black scarf.

She says THE PARTY IS DECIDING TO TRY
AND GET READY FOR THE SPRING.
STILL DIDN'T RULE OUT THE FALL
OPTION FOR AN ELECTION.
I HEAR THAT THE PREMIER WAS
PRESENTED THIS WEEK WITH A
DOCUMENT THAT HAD A FAIRLY
LENGTHY LIST OF, UM, OF
POSSIBLE POLICIES, UM, TO MAKE
UP THE PLATFORM.
UM, I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING
TO-- HE'S TAKING A LOOK AT IT
THIS WEEK.
AND HE'S GOING TO BE, UM, TO BE
WHITTLING IT DOWN SOMEWHAT.
ALONG WITH HIS CAMPAIGN PEOPLE
AND IT'S GOING TO BE PRESENTED
TO THE CAUCUS.
AT ITS CAUCUS MEETING.
FEBRUARY 19TH.
SO-- SO WE MAY HAVE SOME ROOM.

Steve says STAY TUNE.
IT IS TRADITIONAL FOR LEADERS
WHO ARE ABOUT TO GO OUT ON A
REAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN TO DO A
KIND OF A MOCK SWING.

Robert says YEAH.

Steve says WHICH ERNIE EVES DID
IN SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO.
HOW DID IT GO.

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."
Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, lilac shirt, and checked gray tie.

He says A COUPLE OF DAYS IN
SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO.
WOOD STOCK, PARIS, LONDON.
HANDEDED MORE MONEY.
WHEREVER HE GOES, THERE'S A
CHEQUE-WRITING MACHINE
FOLLOWING HIM THESE DAYS.
THE PROBLEM IS, THAT'S WHY I
THINK SUE IS CORRECT ABOUT THE
TWO OPTIONS THINGS.
IT MAKES SENSE THAT MR. EVES
HAS TWO OPTIONS, BECAUSE HE
NEVER HAS ONE POSITION ON
ANYTHING, PRACTICALLY.

Steve says THERE'S A ZINGER.
THERE WE GO.

Susanna says HE'S A FLEXIBLE PREMIER.

Robert says BUT THE CAMPAIGN DEPENDS ON
MANY THINGS.
GETTING THE PREMIER OUT IN DRY
RUNS.
THE TRIP THROUGH SOUTHWESTERN
ONTARIO WAS NOT VERYED GOOD.
THE MONEY WAS GOOD.
NEEDED FOR HOSPITAL INSIDE
WOOD STOCK.
YOU WALK INTO A BANK AND SHAKE
HANDS, NOBODY'S THERE.
YOU HAVE REPORTERS CALLING
LOOKING FOR WHERE HE'S MAIN
STREETING.
NO ONE HAS AN ANSWER.
REPORTERS ARE TOLD TO GO TO
PARIS, THERE'S AN ANNOUNCEMENT.
THEY GO THERE-- THEY GET TO
PARIS AND THERE'S NO
ANNOUNCEMENT.
I THINK THEY SHOULD PUSH IT
ALONG A LITTLE SPRING BECAUSE
THEY WANT TO GET IT READY.
AT THIS POINT, THEY HAVE TO
WORK ON THE MEET AND GREET AND
OTHER THINGS BEFORE THEY GO TO
THE PEOPLE.

Steve says OKAY.
LET'S TALK SOME NAMES.
BECAUSE THE PREMIER BASICALLY
TOLD HIS TROOPS, LOOK AT, I
HAVE TO KNOW WHO'S GOING NEXT
TIME AND I HAVE TO KNOW WHO
WILL TAKE A PLAYER.
CHRIS HODGSON WE KNOW DECIDED
HE WAS GOING TO RETIRE.
YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT SOME GUY WHO
MANY PEOPLE THOUGHT WOULD
LEAVE.
HE'S ACTUALLY COMING BACK.

Susanna says YEAH, IT'S ROB SAMPSON AND I
THINK UP UNTIL EARLY THIS WEEK,
UM, HE WAS SERIOUSLY LEANING
AGAINST, UM, AGAINST RUNNING.
I KNOW HE HAD A-- HE HAD A TALK
WITH THE PREMIER LATE LAST
WEEK.
AND, UM, BUT HE'S BEEN
TRAVELING AROUND THE PROVINCE
WITH THE FINANCE COMMITTEE,
DOING SOME BUDGET
CONSULTATIONS, AND-- AND, UM,
AND APPARENTLY MY SOURCES TELL
ME THAT-- THAT HE'S SO
CONCERNED WITH, WITH WHAT HE
THINKS THE LIBERALS WOULD DO,
IE THEY WOULD, UM, THEY WOULD
PAY FOR MORE HEALTH CARE AND
EDUCATION, UM, ON A CREDIT
CARD, THAT, UM, THAT THAT'S
CONVINCED HIM TO TAKE ANOTHER
RUN AT IT.
HE WANTS TO STAY-- TO STAY AND
SAFEGUARD SORT OF THE TAX BASE
OF THE PROVINCIAL.

Steve says A LOT OF PEOPLE
THOUGHT SAMSON WOULD LEAVE
BECAUSE HE WASN'T CABINET
MINISTER AND MR. EVES DROPPED HIM.

Robert says UNDERRATED GUY.
HARD WORKING GUY.
PAID ALL OF HIS DUE INSIDE
COMMITTEE WORK AND SO FORTH.
AND BASICALLY A VERY NICE GUY.
AND I THINK IT'S A PLUS FOR THE
TORIES TO HAVE HIM RUN AGAIN.

Susanna says I THINK FOR HIM, THE LURE OF
A CABINET POSITION WOULDN'T
MEAN MUCH, TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH.

Steve says OKAY.
TELL US ABOUT A GUY THAT MOST
OF OUR VIEWERS KNOW, BECAUSE
HE'S OUT THERE ON THE HUSTINGS
OF EDUCATION.
FORMER HEAD OF THE OOSTF, EARL
MANNERS.
NOT STANDING FOR REELECTION.

Robert says EIGHT YEARS.
BECAUSE HE WANTS TO RUN FOR THE NDP.
I'M A LITTLE SURPRISED BY THIS.
THINK I EVERYBODY THOUGHT THAT
HE MIGHT WANT TO MOVE ON AFTER
EIGHT YEARS IN HEAD OF THE
FEDERATION TO RUN FOR THE NDP
IN HALIBURTON, BROCK.
CHRIS HODGSON'S OLD RIDING.

Steve says NOT A STRONG HOLD.

Robert says IT'S MORE LIBERAL TORY.
MORE TORY THAN LIBERAL I WOULD THINK.

Susanna says ONCE HELD BY THE NDP IN 1990.

Steve says THE BOB RAE ELECTION.

Robert says MR. MANNERS SAYS IT'S
PERSONAL THIS TIME.
HE HAS A NEW BABY.
THE NEW BABY WILL BE IN THE
SCHOOL SYSTEM.
HE WANTS TO TAKE HIS FIGHT ON
PUBLIC EDUCATION FROM OUTSIDE
THE BUILDING TO THE FLOOR OF
THE HOUSE.

Steve says WON-- ONE WONDERS IF
HE DON'T HAVE-- HAVE LOOKED FOR
A RIDING WITH MORE POTENTIAL
FOR A NEW DEMOCRAT.

Robert says HE THINKS THERE'S POTENTIAL THERE.
A LOT OF TEACHERS WILL CAMPAIGN
FOR HIM.
YOU WATCH THAT.

Susanna says THE TORIES DID SOME POLLING
THERE IN ABOUT NOVEMBER, AS I
UNDERSTAND.
AND THEY WERE IN-- IN-- HELD IN
PRETTYED GOOD ESTEEM.
THEY WERE PRETTY OUT FAR AHEAD
IN THE POLLS AND I THINK THEY'RE
PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A PRETTY
STRONG CANDIDATE THERE.
WE'LL MOST-- WILL MOST LIKELY
BE LORI SCOTT.
LIBERALS HAVE A STRONG
CANDIDATE, TOO.

Robert says BUT MANNERS HAS PROFILE AND
EXPERIENCE AND LEFT FOOT TROOPS
THAT HE CAN CALL ON.
I SUSPECT A FEW DOLLARS, TOO.

Steve says LET'S GIVE YOU A PAT
ON THE BACK BECAUSE YOU FIRST
REPORTEDED HERE THAT BOB
RUNCIMAN WAS GOING TO RUN
AGAIN.
HE IS GOING TO RUN AGAIN.

Robert says ANOTHER BIG PLUS FOR ERNIE EVES.
YOU WANT BOB RUNCIMAN ANCHORING
THAT EASTERN ONTARIO
CONTINGENT.
VERY AGREEABLE GUY.
HE'S A STRAIGHT SHOOTER.

Steve says I'M TOLD THAT THE
DEAL IS THAT HE AGREES TO RUN
AGAIN, HOLDS THE SEAT FOR A
YEAR AND THEN GETS TO QUIT AND
GO TAKE HIS APPOINTMENT, WHICH
IS REALLY WHAT HE WANTS, MAYBE
THE HEAD OF THE LCBO IF MR.
BRANT HAD ENOUGH.

Robert says AND--

Steve says BRANT APPOINTED HIM
FOR THREE YEARS, MAYBE ONE.
WE'LL SEE.
HOW AM I DOING ON TIME?
TWO MINUTES.
OKAY.
TAX CUTS.
ARE THEY STILL THE MAGIC BULLET
FOR A CAMPAIGN?
WE KNOW THE TORIES WON TWO
ELECTIONS ON A ROW, MANY WOULD
SAY ON THE STRENGTHS OF CUTTING
TAXES.
WHAT DO YOU HEAR FOR THIS TIME?

Susanna says I'M HEARING THAT TAX CUTS
FOR THE THIRD STRAIGHT CAMPAIGN
WILL TAKE A STARRING ROLE FOR
THE TORIES.
THEY'RE GOING TO GO FULL OUT ON
IT.
BUT MR. MCGUINTY HAS COME OUT
AND SAID NO TO ANYMORE TAX
CUTS.
SENIOR TORIES THINK THIS WAS A
HUGE MISTAKE BY MR. MCGUINTY.
THAT-- THAT, UM, THAT THEY'LL
BE ABLE TO PORTRAY HIM AS NOT
ONLY THE GUY WHO DOESN'T WANT
TO GIVE YOU A TAX CUT, IE, NO
MORE MONEY IN YOUR POCKET, BUT
HE'S ACTUALLY GOING TO INCREASE
TAXES BECAUSE HE WANTS TO, UM,
TO ROLL-BACK, ROLL-BACK THE
PROPOSED TAX CUT FOR
CORPORATIONS.
SO-- SO THEY'RE VERY HAPPY
ABOUT THAT.
THE LIBERALS SAY THAT THEY DID
FOCUS GROUP TESTING, AND PEOPLE
ARE BEGINNING TO MAKE THE
CONNECTION BETWEEN TAX CUTS AND
AND, AND SPENDING CUTS.
UM, BUT EVEN INTERNALLY WITHIN
THE-- WITHIN THE TORIES, SORRY,
WITHIN THE LIBERAL PARTY, THERE
WAS A BIG DEBATE ON WHETHER
MCGUINTY SHOULD SAY THAT OR
NOT.
HE WAS THE ONE PUSHING IT.

Steve says THE LIBERALS SAY A
TAX CUT WILL EQUAL TO THE LOSS
OF SERVICE.
THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T WANT THEM
ANYMORE.

Robert says I THINK IT WILL BE A SUB TEXT.
THE MAIN ISSUE IN THIS IS
LEADERSHIP.
YOU SAW MR. EVE INSIDE OTTAWA
DOING THE LEADERSHIP THING.
GETTING MONEY OUT OF THE PRIME
MINISTER.
NOT AS MUCH AS HE WANTED.
BUT HE CAN GO TO PEOPLE AND
SAY, I NEGOTIATED AND I'LL GO
BACK AND NEGOTIATE MORE.
I'M THE GUY TO DO IT.

Steve says WHILE THE LIBERAL
NUMBERS ARE HIGHER ON THE PARTY
NAME, WHEN YOU COMPARE EVES AND
MCGUINTY, EVES COMES OUT AHEAD.

Robert says POLL AFTER POLL AFTER POLL,
BEST PREMIER IS EVES AND NOT MCGUINTY.

Susanna says IF I WERE THE TORIES, RUN
HARD WITH THAT TAX CUT THING.
I WOULD RUN THAT MCGUINTY
SAYING I'M OPPOSED TO MORE TAX
CUTS.
THEN SAYING, WE'RE THE TORIES.
WE'LL GIVE YOU MORE TAX CUTS.
TAX CUTS ARE-- END OF STORY.

Robert says TAX CUTS, HURTS IN SCHOOLS
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
I DON'T THINK IT WORKS WELL.

Steve says TWO SIDES OF THE COIN
ON THIS ONE.
THAT'S IT FOR “BACKROOM 411”
FOR TODAY.
UNTIL NEXT TIME.
And THAT'S “4TH READING” THIS WEEK.
RICHARD MAHONEY'S GRANDMOTHER,
HAPPY 97TH BIRTHDAY TODAY.
CONGRATULATIONS AND MANY, MANY
MORE.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY, THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2003, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

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