Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 291 | Dec 01, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON 4TH READING.

In a clip a politician in his late fifties says WE GOT TO COME TOGETHER.

Steve says FINDING A CURE FOR
MEDICARE.
ROY ROMANOW PRESCRIPTION FOR
WHAT AILS OUR HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM.

Steve, Ruth, Richard, and Mac sit with a guest around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black coat over a black shirt.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.
Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.
Mac Penney is in his sixties, clean-shaven and balding.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
I AM STEVE.
AND THIS IS FOURTH READING.
AS SACRED AS MOTHERHOOD AND
APPLE PIE TO AMERICANS, THAT
HALLOWED PLACE IN CANADA IS
RESERVED FOR MEDICARE AND SO
ROMANOW REPORT ON THE FUTURE
EVER MEDICARE UNVEILED THIS
PAST WEEK HAS BEEN AS EAGERLY
AWAITED AS A NEW BORN BABY.
ROMANOW HAS SLAP SLAMMED THE
DOOR SHUT TO PRIVATIZATION IN
THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
AND VENTURE DOWN
FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS.
WE'LL ASK ONTARIO MINISTER OF
HEALTH ABOUT THAT IN A MINUTE.
IN THE MEANTIME, START PUTTING
IT'S MONEY WHERE ITS MOUTH IS.

A clip plays in which Romanow gives an official announcement.
A caption reads “Roy Romanow. Commissioner on the future of health care.”
Romanow is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says THE 47 RECOMMENDATIONS
AND A ROAD MAP
AND FOR A COLLECTIVE JOURNEY
BY CANADIANS TO REFORM AND
RENEW THE HAELTION CARE SYSTEM.

Steve says FORMER SASKATCHEWAN
PREMIER ROMANOW HAS RELEASED
HIS PLAN TO RESUS TAT HEALTH
CARE IN CANADA.
AMONG THE RECOMMENDATIONS, A
MOVE AWAY FROM THE INCREASED
PRIVATIZATION OF HEALTH CARE
SERVICES.
15 billion MORE FOR MOER

Romanow says WE NEED STABLE PREDICTABLE AND
LONG-TERM FUNDING THAT IS
ALLOCATED IN A WAY THAT MAKES
IT CLEAR WHO IS SPENDING WHAT
AND THE WHAT RESULTS SO THAT
WE AS CANADIANS WHO AFTER ALL
ARE THE SHARE HOLDS THAT OWN
THE SYSTEM AND USE IT CAN
UNDERSTAND WHERE
ACCOUNTABILITY RESTS.

Steve says BUT ONTARIO PREMIER EVES SAID
THE ROMAN WPT REPORT COMES UP
SHORT, SHORT ON MONEY THAT S.
SPOKE TO REPORTERS VIA SATELLITE.

The caption changes to "Ernie Eves. Premier of Ontario."
Eves is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with gelled blond hair.

In an announcement, he says
WITH RESPECT TO QUITE
FRANKLY, ON THE TABLE,
ESPECIALLY ON THE PART OF THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
AND WE HAVE TO GUILTY THEIR AS
QUICKLY AS WE CAN, PROVINCES,
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
CERTAINLY, ALL PROVINCES ARE
REALLY COPING AND STRUGGLING
AND WE HAVE HAD TO PICK UP THE
SLACK IN THE LAST DECADE.

Steve says OPPOSITION CRITICS SAY
HOWEVER, THAT ROMANOW PLAN
WILL GO A LONG WAY TO KURING
THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

Now a man in his fifties speaks to the press.
A caption reads “Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader.”
Howard is clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says IT'S A GREAT DAY FOR
MEDICARE. MR. ROMANOW HAS
GIVEN US THE BLUE PRINT TO
CONTINUE TO IMPROVE AND
SUSTAIN OUR MEDICARE SYSTEM.

The caption changes to "Dalton McGuinty. Ontario Liberal Leader."
Dalton is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.

He says IT'S A FIRM RECOMMITMENT TO
THE PRINCIPLES OF MEDICARE.
IT SAYS THAT WE SHOULD IMPROVE
MEDICARE, NOT DISMANTLE IT.
IT CLOSES THE DOOR TIGHT ON
TWO TIER HEALTH CARE.
IT SAYS NO TO TONY CLEMENT
PRIVATE MRI CLINICS.

Steve says DISAGREES SAYING STILL ROOM
FOR PRIVATE MEDICAL CLINICS, 1
OF,000 OF WHICH ARE ALREADY
OPERATING IN ONTARIO.

The caption changes to "Tony Clement. Ontario Minister of Health."
Tony is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short salt and pepper hair and glasses.

He says I BELIEVE WE HAVE A MIX OF
PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY
DELIVERED SERVICES UNIVERSALLY
ACCESSIBLE PUBLICLY FUNDED IN
OUR MEDICARE SYSTEM AND I
BELIEVE WE WILL HAVE THAT IN
THE FUTURE AS WELL.

Eves says I HAVE TALKED TO ROMANOW
ABOUT THIS WHOLE ISSUE OF
HEALTH CARE INCLUDING MRI CLINICS.
I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THAT
A FEW WEEKS AGO, AS A MATTER
OF FACT.
NOT THAT LONG AGO.
HE ASSURED ME THAT BECAUSE THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO WAS
PUBLICLY ADMINISTERING THEIR
MRI CLINICS AS WE GO FORWARD
AND THAT WE ARE PROPOSING TO
HAVE -- PROVINCE WIDE WAIT
LIST KPS THAT WOULD FALL
WITHIN HIS DEFINITION OF
PUBLICLY ADMINISTERED HEALTH
CARE SYSTEM.

Steve says ROMANOW SAID THE HEALTH
SYSTEM IS LONG OVERDUE FOR CHANGE.

Romanow says WE HAVE TO COME TOGETHER,
ONLY 31 MILLION PEOPLE THAT WE
HAVE LOST THE ETHIC THAT IN
OUR TIME OF MOST GRAVE
NECESSITY PERHAPS WHEN WE WERE
ILL, SERIOUSLY ILL, TOUGH
ENOUGH TO CARRY THAT BURDEN
OURSELVES, HAVE WE LOST THE
ETHIC WE DON'T CARE FOR ETCH
ANOTHER AS A COMMUNITY AND
BUILD STRUCTURE FOR COMMUNITY.
IF WE HAVE, I GUESS THAT'S FOR
THE PUBLIC TO DECIDE.
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE.

The clips end.

Back in the studio, Steve says
HOW WILL THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO BUILD ON THE VALUES
ROMANOW OUTLINES IN THE 300
PLUS PAGE REPORT.
THE MINISTER OF HEALTH AND
LONG-TERM CARE AND MPP FOR
BRAMPTON WEST.

Tony Clement sits at the table with Steve and the others.

Steve continues NICE TO HAVE YOU HERE AS ALWAYS.
A FORMER COUNTER PART.
THE NDP.
PRT FORMER PAST PRESIDENT AND
FRAISER.
I NEED A BREAK.
YEAH.
AND MAC PENNY FROM PPBLY LAESS.
AS WE ALWAYS DO, MY WIFE IS
YOUR SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR. WE
GET THAT ONED RECORD SO
EVERYBODY KNOWS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT ROMANOW
SAID THAT YOU AGREE WITH.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Tony Clement. Ontario Minister of Health."
Tony is wearing a gray suit, blue shirt, and red flowery tie.

He says THAT HE SAID THE SCAT US
QUO WILL NOT WORK.
WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO HAVE
INNO VAINGDZ AND THAT THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A KEY
PLAYER THROUGH THEIR FINANCIAL
PARTICIPATION IF INNO VAINGZ
IS GOING TO HELP.
AND IN THAT CHON COLLUSION I
CERTAIN OL -- MR. ROMANWR.
THE TYPE OFS -- DENT SORT OF
DANG UL FUNDS AND THEN WALK
AWAY FROM THE TABLE WHEN HAS
DONE THE CASE IN SEVERAL
PREVIOUS.
IT IS A STABLE ONGOING,
CONTINUOUS PARTNERSHIP AND
HOLDS OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF
CONTINUED ACCESS AND INNO
VAINGZ.
AND THE OTHER THING THAT HE
DID WHICH I THOUGHT WAS
IMPORTANT FROM THE PROVINCIAL
PERSPECTIVE WAS TO RECOGNIZE A
LOST INNO VAINGZ HAS ALREADY
OKURD.
THE PROVINCES ARE MOVING AHEAD
AS THE PRINARY DELIVERERS AND
PAYERS OF HEALTH CARE TO
ENSURE THAT WE HAVE A GREATER
ACCESSIBILITY AND SUSTAIN
ABILITY IN THE HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM AND THE FEDERAL GRT CAN
BE A AER TO EP -- WELL, --
CONCENTRATE ON THE PROS TIF.

Steve says YOUR MOTHER'S NOT HERE.

Tony says THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, FROM MY
PERSPECTIVE, I THINK THE MOST
DISAPOIBT POINTING THING WAS
HOW RLINGTS LAEPT ON CERTAIN
THINGS THAT HE SAID AND
SUGGESTED THAT THEY MEANT
SOMETHING WHICH I DON'T THINK
THAT THEY MEANT.
YOU HAD A LEAD IN WHEN IT CAME
TO PRIVATE HEALTH CARE.
WELL, YOU KNOW, COMMISSIONER
ROMANOW WAS VERY, VERY
PASSIONATE ABOUT THE FACT THAT
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ARE CALLED
MULTIPLE PAYERS.
WE DON'T WANT A BUNCH OF
INSURANCE COMPANIES, HMO AS IN
THE UNITED STATES EXAMPLE,
BETWEEN THE PARBLT AND THE
PROVIDER.
WE HAVE A SINGLE PAYER THAT
SITS IN ONTARIO AS THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO ON BEHALF
OF THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO AND
HE SAID THAT THAT WAS THE MOST
EFFICIENT AND THE MOST
EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET THE BEST
RESULTS.
WE AGREE WITH HIM ON THAT.
SOMEHOW THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN UP
BY SOCIAL ACTIVISTS AND OTHERS
TO SAY NO PRIVATE SECTOR
INVOLVE. IN A PUBLICLY FUNDED.
THE FACT IS.
WE HAVE LOTS OF PRIVATE SECTOR
INVOLVE..
OUR DOCTORS, HALF OF THE
NURSING HOME KPS LABS AND LYNN
BEINGS -- APPROXIMATE IT IS
APPROXIMATE PROSPECT -- THAT
WAS A KEY AREA.

Steve says WE HAVE A
PIECE OF TAPE TO PLAY HERE AND
COME BACK AND ASK YOU A
QUESTION.
MICHAEL.
LET'S ASK THIS QUESTION.

A clip plays in which Roy Romanow makes a fiery speech.

He says 40 YEARS AGO VISIONARY MEN
AND WOMEN CAME TOGETHER TO
CREATE MEDICARE, WE HAD
PRIVATE MEDICINE IN CANADA.
YOU PAID FOR MEDICINE OUT OF
POCKET TO RECEIVE MEDICAL
SERVICES, IF YOU HAD THE MONEY
IN THE POCKET, YOU COULD
AFFORD THEM.
OR YOU RELIED ON THE KNOW, IF
YOU DIFFERENT AND YOU
COULDN'T.
IF YOU NEEDED AN OPERATION,
YOU CASHED IN YOUR SAVINGS,
YOU MORTGAGED YOUR HOME OR YOU
SOLD YOUR FARMS SO YOU COULD
PAY OR YOU SIMPLY DID WITHOUT.
IF YOU HAD THE RESOURCES, ABLE
TO PAY YOUR PAY PA TO THE
FRONT FFTEN.
AM AM - YOU WAITED AND PRAYED
FOR THE BEST.

The clip ends.

Steve says I DON'T THINK HE WAS MORE
PASSION AELT OR BUMPED UP THAN
IN THE NEWS CONFERENCE THAN HE
WAS ABOUT THAT.
IT LEADS ME TO THE QUESTION,
YOUR TOP PRI TORT, THE PREE
STANDING MRI CLINICS UP ASK
GOING.
DALT ON MCGUINTY SAID THE
ROMANOW REPORT SAYS NO TO THE
PRIVATE MRI CLINICS.
IS THAT HOW YOU READ IT?

Tony says NO, NOT AT ALL.
HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN TALK ABOUT
OTHER PROVINCES THAT WERE
REQUIRING PATIENTS TO PAY OUT
OF POCKET TO ACCESS STANDARD
ALONE MRI CLINICS OR OTHER
TYPES OF CLINICS ACCEPTABLE
WITHOUT EXTRA FEE AND PUBLICLY,
THE DEFINITION OF THE CANADA
HEALTH ACT.
IF HE WAS GETTING PASSIONATE
ABOUT CREATING CUE JUMPING AND
CREATING PRIVATE PAYMENT
PAYMENT ON TOP, THAT'S NOT
WHERE ONTARIO IS GOING NOR
WERE WE EVER CONTEMPLATING THAT.

Steve says WAIT A SECOND.
YOU WERE CONTEMPLATING THAT.
YOU SAID WE WOULD LIKE PEOPLE
TO BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THERE
AND PLUFERNING DOWN THE VISA CARD.

Tony says THE QUESTION WAS: WHAT CAN
BE MADE AVAILABLE FOR
NONMEDICALLY NECESSARY
SERVICES AND THE 0 I FIF DMOU
ARE I SNOU THE SAME THAT UPON
AND TSES THIS IS NOT
MEDICALLY NECESSARY ETHEN
YOU DO HAVE ACCESS TO MRI'S
RIGHT NOW IN THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO AS PART OF A PRIVATE
SYSTEM.
MAYBE YOUR EMPLOYER PAYS FOR
IT.

Steve says AND YOU GET HURT, YOU ARE
ATLOUD JUMP TO THE FRONT OF
THE LINE.

Tony says THAT IS A DIFFERENT LINE.
WHAT WE TRIED TO DO IS EXPAND
THE PUBLICLY PAID LINE.
WE HAVE ADDED 90 PERCENT TO
THE BUDGETS OF HOSPITAL MRI
THIS YEAR.
IN TERMS OF PAYMENTS AND
FUNDING FOR UNIVERSALLY
ACCESSIBLE, NO EXTRA FEES AND
WE ARE INCREASING ACCESS
THROUGH THE STAND ALONE
CLINICS.
AGAIN UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE.
NO EXTRA FEES.

Steve turns to Ruth and says DOES THAT HELP YOU. WHEN
THE CLIP CAME INTO THE
BACKGROUND PIECE THAT DESTRIBED
THIS, YOU WERE SHAKING YOUR
HEAD AND CONCERNED.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WHAT THE MINISTER SAYS,
SOUNDS VERY REASSURING BUT
THERE'S STILL -- IF THAT WORD
NEEDS TO BE DONE.
IF IT IS MEDICALLY NECESSARY,
IT WILL BE COVERED FERM THE
FEAR THAT THOSE OF YOU WHO
OPPOSE PRIVATE INTERVENTION IN
THE AELINGTS CARE SIZE HAS
ALWAYS BEEN, MR. SMITHING
COULD DECIDE FOR HIMSELF THAT
HE NEEDS AN MRI.
TAKE THAT MRI TO HIS FIGURE
AND I I FEED
FEDERAL -- AND NOT ONLY GET
HIMSELF TO THE FRONT OF THE
MRI CUE BUT THEN GET HIMSELF
TO THE CUE WITH THE PROCEDURE
BECAUSE HE HAS THE DIAGNOSTIC
EVIDENCE TO SAY IT IS
NECESSARY.
AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO ALLOW
THOSE MRI CLINICS TO MAKE
MONEY BY PROVIDING PRIVATE
PAID FOR MRI'S, THEN I THINK
IT IS GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO
AVOID SOME CUE JUMPING.

Tony says YOU KNOW RIGHT NOW,
HOSPITALS MAKE MONEY PROVIDING
PUBLICLY FUNDED MRI'S FOR
PRIVATE SECTOR PAYORS.

Ruth says BUT SOME ARE WORKERS.

Tony says BUT ALSO THE CASE THAT YOU MAY
HAVE MENTIONED AND THE FACT
THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT IN THE
COURSE OF EMPLOY., THE LAWYER
SAID WE WANT YOU TO GET A BODY
SCAN JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A
KEY PERSON IN OUR COMPANY.
GO GET A BODY SCAN.
USE AN MRI
THAT IS ALLOWED IN THE
SYSTEM AND WE BELIEVE, I
BELIEVE THAT THE CONVERSATION
THAT EVES HAD IN TERMS OF
OVERSITE TO ENSURE THAT CUE
JUMPING DOES NOT OCCUR AND
THAT YOU CANNOT DO INDIRECTLY
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO DIRECTLY --

Ruth says THAT'S KEY.

Tony says WHICH IS THE KEY, EE ARE IF
TICKET --- -- CAN I KIND OF
BRING THE PATIENT IN TO THE
KFERINGDZ?

Steve says DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD TALK
ABOUT PATIENTS?

Tony says CALL ME CRAZY, THIS IS IMPORTANT.
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO INCREASE
ACCESSIBILITY.
WHEN WE HT DIALOGUE WITH
ONTARIO THROUGH THE HEALTH
CARE QUESTIONNAIRE AND 400,000
RETURNS, QUESTIONNAIRES
RETURNED FROM THE PUBLIC IN
ONTARIO.
AND ONE OF THEIR NUMBER ONE
ISSUES WAS INCREASED ACCESS.
INCREASED ACCESS TO DOCTORS
AND NURSES WHICH WE HAVE A
LOST PLANS WE CAN TALK ABOUT.
INCREASED ACCESS TO
DIAGNOSTICS AND, YOU KNOW,
THIS IS ABOUT INCREASED ACCESS
WITHIN OHIP, WITHIN OUR
PUBLICLY FUNDED SYSTEM.

Ruth says ONE MORE QUESTION.

Tony says MIGHT BE GOING IN ANOTHER
DIRECTION.
MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT BUT THE

Ruth says SOCIETY PRIVATE INVESTORS
IN THE MRI CLINICS, WHERE ARE
THEY GOING TO GET THE RETURN
ON THEIR INVESTMENT FROM?

Tony says WELL, IT IS A PROFIT MAKING
VENTURE JUST LIKE THE THOUSAND
X-RAY CLINIC AND LAB CLINICS
AND ULTRASOUND CLINICS WE HAVE
IN ONTARIO WHICH GREW AS PART
OF THE INDED ENT ENT FAECHLT
RULD ONTARIO, THAT SUGGEST
WHAT WE HAVE IN FIRN FAMILIAR
AND THE ONE THING I AGREE
WITH ROMANOW -- NO.
THAT'S THE POINT. WE HAVE TO
MAKE SURE IT IS
EVIDENCE-BASED.
I THINK WHAT ROMANOW WAS
SAYING YES, HE SAID, SHOW ME
THE EVIDENCE.
LET'S MAKE ALL OF THIS
EVIDENCE BASED.
WE HAVE SOME CORNER STONES IN
OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT WE
WANT TO PROTECT AND THAT HAS
TO DO WITH UNIVERSALLY
ACCESSIBILITY.
THEN HOW TO DO YOU REMEMBER.
IT HAS TO BE EVIDENCE BASED
AND WE AGREE WITH THAT.

Steve says YOU, I WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE
OF THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE
CONNECTION TO THE FEDERAL
SCENE AS WELL, I THINK I CAN
PUT IT THAT WAY TO ASK YOU
ABOUT WHAT THE PROSPECTS FOR,
I THINK ROMANOW DESCRIBED IT.
COOPERATIVE FEDERALISM ON THIS
FILE.
HE SAYS THIS REPORT IS AN
EXCITING BLUE PRINT FOR
CHRAPINGZ BETWEEN PROVINCIAL
AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS.
DO YOU THINK SO?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says I THINK IT IS.
I THINK IT IS ALMOST A
FABULOUSLY REFRESHING NEW
PERSPECTIVE OR NEW LEASE ON
LIFE FOUR PAELINGTS RARE KS.
I RONING OM -- AND BUT
FAMILIAR -- FABULOUSLY AND
GIVES ME A LOT NFERPT -- AND I
THINK THAT THERE'S A VERY GOOD
CHANCE OF THAT.
I THINK FIRST OF ALL, WE KNOW
THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO VALUE,
YOU KNOW, HEALTH CARE IN THIS
COUNTRY, SOMETHING MORE THAN
JUST OUR MOST CHERISHED SOCIAL
PROGRAM.
IT IS HOW WE DEFINE OURSELVES
AND NO POLITICIAN LIKE
MR. EVES AND KLEIN THAT ARE
CRITICIZING ROMANOW ARE GOING
TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME RESISTING
A NATIONAL CONSENSUS ON THAT
THE PREMIERS AND THE PRIME
MINISTER ARE GOING TO GET
TOGETHER IN JANUARY, I BELIEVE,
TO START THIS.
AND I TOUCH THE SENSITIVE
SUBJECT, I CAN THINK OF
NOTHING THAT THE PRIME
MINISTER COULD DO IN HIS
REMAINING MOBTS THAT WOULD BE
GREATER VALUE THAN ALL OF US
TO SEE EYE -- AND FP AUDIO -
IN -- ON HEALTH CARE PROBLEM
REPAIRED TO TAKE SOME OF THE
THINGS THAT ROMANOW CALLS FOR
LIKE BUYING, GETTING REAL
PRIMARY CARE GOING.
HOME CARE OOCHLT - WE CAN DO
NL NLURE IT IS - A AS WELL AS
IN THE HOSPITAL.
MONEY WILL ALLOW THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT TO BUY A SEAT BACK
AT THE TABLE THERE.
I GUESS THE ONLY QUESTION ON
THAT: IS THERE GOING TO BE
ENOUGH.
ROMANOW CALLS FOR 15 BILLION
AND MANLY TELLS US 14.4
BILLION IN SURPLUS.
SO IT MEANS THAT THE GFL WILL
HAVE TO DO THIS WITH
PROVISION.
NO TO OTHER THINGS AND YES TO
HEALTH CARE.

Steve says THERE IS A CONSIDERABLE
AMOUNT OF THIS REPORT, MAC,
THAT DON'T WANT TO GET TOO INTER
JURISDICTIONAL BUT CLEARLY A
FRRL ENTITY SUGGESTING TO A
PROVINCIALY ENTITY WHAT IT
OUGHT TO DO IN PROVINCIAL
JURISDICTION.
IN PAST, GROUNDS FOR A BIG FIGHT.
IF YOU ARE TELLING US WHERE
TO SPEND OUR MOAN, YOU CAN GO
TO HELL EENT IS IALLY.
WHAT ABOUT.

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says AND ONTARIO AND THE OTHER
PROVINCES IS THE DEFINITION OF
NATIONAL STANDARDS AND HOW
THEY'RE GOING TO BE
OPERATIONALIZED IF YOU WILL.
I THINK IN SOME AREAS,
CATASTROPHIC DRUG CARE,
PRIMARY CARE REFORM, I THINK
ONTARIO IS VERY WELL
POSITIONED AND I WOULDN'T BE
PARTICIPATING IN A DEBATE IF
THOSE AREAS BECAUSE I THINK
ONTARIO STANDARDS ARE AT LEAST
AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER THAN
ANYTHING THAT WOULD BE
PROPOSED NATIONALLY. I THINK
RICHARD PUT HIS FINGER RIGHT
ON IT.
THE ONLY WAY, I THINK IN THE
AREAS THAT THE PROVINCE WOULD
SEE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD
ANY LEGITIMACY IN THIS DEBATE
IS IF THEY COME BACK TO THE
TABLE WITH MONEY.
AND THE MONEY HAS GOT TO BE IN
THE AREA THAT ROMANOW IS
SUGGESTING BECAUSE THE NUMBER
THERE IS.
WON'T GET ANY --- MORE THAN
TWERNT PERCENT.

Richard says LET ME CLARIFY.
I DON'T WANT TO GET G TOO FAR
IN THIS.
I THINK A REALLY GOOD CHANCE
AND I THINK THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT HAS AN OBLIGATION
TO INCREASE SUBSTANTIALLY IF
IT WANTS TO BUY REFORM.
I DON'T THINK EVES OR CHRIN OR
PRIME MINISTER SHOULD MIS,
THERE A ROLE IN CANADIAN MINDS
THAT WE HAVE THE FIVE -- NOW
SIX PINS PRINCE ELS, EQUAL
CARE AND EQUAL ACCESS, OUR
MOST CHERISHED PRINCIPLE, I
BELIEVE IN THE CANADA HEALTH
ACT AND NOT JUST OPENING --
PUTTING MONEY IN.
CANADIANS BELIEVE A PROFOUND
ROLE AS THE PROTECTOR OF AND
DEFENDER, NOT JUST AS A
FUNDER.

Steve says HAVE YOU TALKED
TO PAUL MARTIN?
DO YOU THINK IF HE SIGNS ON ON TO IT?

Richard says SAID VERY PUBLICLY
ENTHUSIASTICLY COMMENTS HOW
ROMANOW HAS --

Steve says ROMANOW WANTS A NEW HEALTH
COUNCIL TO MONITOR AND RECORD
HOW WELL PROVINCES LIKE THIS
ONE ARE COMPLYING. DO YOU
SUPPORT THIS?

Tony says HARD TO SAY I AM AGAINST
INCREASED ADOWNTOWNABILITY. WE
ARE READY TO BE ACCOUNTABLE. I
BELIEVE WE HAVE LEAD THE WAY
IN ACCOUNTABILITY.
ONTARIO, WAS THE FIRST
PROVINCE TO HAVE HOSPITAL
REPORT CARDS, I HAVE SET UP A
QUALITY ACCOUNTABILITY SECTION
FOR CANCER CARE ONTARIO.
THESE KIND OF THINGS WHERE
ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE PATIENT
ARE CRITICAL, I ABSOLUTELY
BELIEVE IN I DOINT WANT TOO
INTER GOVERNMENTAL, THAT THE
PROVINCE TO THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
THAT IS A BIG FIGHT. BUT IF,
LIKE COMMISSIONER ROMANOW IS
SAYING HOW THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT APLIS IT.
LET'S GET AS MUCH INFORMATION
OUT THERE, LET'S GET AS MUCH
ACCOUNTABILITY IN TERMS OF
RESULTS FOR THE -- THAT THE
VERY PRECIOUS TAX DOLLARS THAT
WE SPEND ON HEALTH CARE, FERK
WE WANT TO COLLABORATE WITH
THAT AND MAKE SURE THAT A
SUCCESS.

Ruth says TWO POINTS ABOUT THAT.
CERTAINLY WHEN I WAS -- THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HE WHO
PLAYS THE PIPER CALLS THE
TUNE. YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT
TO DO AS YOU PULL MONEY BACK.
I DON'T THINK YOU CAN EXPECT
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PUT
MORE MONEY IN WITHOUT SOME SAY
IN BUYING THAT CHANGE AND
THEREFORE SOME MECHANISM TO
SEE WHETHER IN FINGT KT -- AND
MONEY GEL NOT -- BUT THE OTHER
ACCOUNTABILITY IS THAT WE,
WHAT MR. ROMANOW DID NOT THE
MOST EXHAUSTIVE EXAMINATION OF
OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN
YEARS BUEN CUSTOMER JIZING AND
A CONVERSATION WITH THE PEOPLE
OF CANADA.
AND I THINK THAT I WAS ONE OF
THOSE WHO HAD POINTS, HE WAS
BEING TOO OPEN MINDED TO MORE
PRIVATE INVOLVE. IN THE SYSTEM.
CANADIANS PERSUADED HIM THAT
THEY WANTED A SINGLE PAIR
PUBLIC SYSTEM AND SO CANADIANS
NEED TO HAVE A MECHANISM BY
WHICH THEY, TOO, CAN HOLD
GOVERNMENTS AT BOTH LEVELS
ACCOUNTABLE FOR IMPLEMENTS A
REPORT THAT THEY HAVE AS
CITIZENS LARGELY HAD AN IMPACT ON.

Richard says AND HE'S RIGHT ABOUT ONE
OTHER THING, TOOCHLT IS THAT
THIS, THE PRINCIPLES THAT
WE'RE SORT OF APPLAUD NOTHING
THIS REPORT WILL SEE THE LIGHT
OF DAY IF CANADIANS ACTUALLY
TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE REPORT
AND GET INVOLVED AS HE
SUGGESTED.
THEY HAVE TO PUSH THE POL
TIINGS TO GET INVOLVED.
ONE OTHER THOUGHT, WATCHING
HIM YESTERDAY, I WAS THINKING
WHAT AN ENORMOUS DEBT WE OWE
TO THE PROVINCE OF
SASKATCHEWAN IN THIS COUNTRY.
TOMMY DOUGLAS, THE PREMIER OF
SASKATCHEWAN INTRODUCED
MEDICARE, EMMITT HALL,
FACED A DEAR TERRITORY
FRESHMAN -- ROMANOW REPORT
BACK IN THE SKPAKT NOW HOME
ANOW.

Tony says AND NOT TO MENTION Dieffenbaker.

Richard says YES.
YES.
AND NOT FROM SAT SAS CATCH WAN.

Tony says THAT IS TRUE.

Steve says AND ANOTHER ITEM HERE, EACH
CANADIAN SHOULD HAVE A
PERSONAL ELECTRONIC HEALTH
RECORD THAT BOTH THEY AND
THEIR DOCTOR CAN ACCESS ON THE
INTERNET.
NOW I KNOW YOU SPENT A LOT OF
TIME IN YOUR POLITICAL CAREER
CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRIVACY
RIGHTS OF CITIZENS, DO YOU
HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS?

Tony says NOT WITH THE APPROPRIATE
CONTROLS AND MAKING SURE THAT
PRIF ACCESS PROTECTED.
THAT'S WHAT WE ARE WORKING ON,
STEVE.
A LOT OF STUFF IN THIS REPORT
THAT'S NOT -- SMART SYSTEMS
FOR HEALTH, A SINGLE
ELECTRONIC RECORD WITH THE
APPROPRIATE PRIVACY STANDARDS.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE, KMIINGER
ROMANOW. WE HAVE TO MOVE ON
WITH PRIMARY CARE REFORM.
OUR GOVERNMENT AND OUR
PROVINCE HAS BEEN LEADING THE
WAY FOR PRIMARY CARE REFORM,
ACCESS TO YOUR FAMILY DOCTORS
IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAT
INCREASES ACCESSIBILITY.

Ruth says AND THE FEE FOR SERVICE.
AND THAT'S RIGHT.

Tony says ABSOLUTELY.

Ruth says 80 PERCENT BY THE END OF MARCH.

Richard says THAT IS A SHOCK.

Steve says TONY, -- DID YOU SEE THAT.

Tony says TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK HERE.
AND MORE ACCESS TO MORE
DOCTORS AND MORE NURSES AND
SKILLS AND PRACTICE.
EXACTLY WA WE TRIED TO DO IN
THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO. MY
POINT IS, YOU KNOW, IS THERE
ANYTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN IN
THIS REPORT. THE REPORT IS
IMPORTANT TO GALVANIZE AND
FOCUS THE ATTENTION OF THE
POLITICAL CLASS AND THE MEDIA,
QUITE FRANKLY ON AN ISSUE THAT
HEALTH MINISTERS HAVE BEEN
TALK BEING AND DOING THING OS
ON A NUMBER OF YEARS, I
APPLAUD IT FOR THAT.
IN TERMS OF INNO VAINGZ.

Richard says BTS THE -- AND PPL JUST TO GO
TO THE POINT, I THINK HE WAS
TRIFERM -- THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT TOFS BUY IN, IT'S
ONLY RAENTLY THE MINISTER
HIMSELF AND THIS GOVERNMENT
HAVE TESTIMONY TO LOOK AT
THINGS LIKE COMMUNITY HEALTH
CENTRES DELIVERING PRIMARY
CARE WITH NURSE TRACK DIINGZ
SKPERS DOCTORS 24 HOURS A DAY
REASONABLE BEING A CONVERT TO
THOSE. HE SAID THE RIGHT
THINGS AT THE MRI CHRIN SKPIK
THAT'S REASSURING BUT HIS BOSS
COM TANED A YEAR WE SHOULD --
SO I WORRY ABOUT HIS BOSS.

Steve says AND ONE MORE THING ON THE
TABLE --

Tony says MY WIFE NEVER SAID ANYTHING
ABOUT THAT.

Steve says AND SHOULD ONTARIO -- IF
YOU HAVE A JOB IN THIS
PROVINCE AND YOU PROBABLY HAVE
A DRUG PLAN.
IF YOU ARE A SENIOR IN THIS
PROVINCE, YOU HAVE A DRUG
PLACHBLT IF YOU ARE POOR IN
THIS PROVINCE, YOU HAVE A DRUG PLAN.
10 OR 15 PERCENT OF THE
PEOPLE NOT COVERED WITH THE
DRUG PLAN AND ROMAN DLRX OW
DID NOT REK NEND A NATIONAL
FHARMA CARE PROGRAM IN HIS
REPORT.
SHOULD HE HAVE?

Tony says I GUESS HIS CONCLUSION WAS,
VERY EXPENSIVE AND WE WANTED
TO TACKLE THE IMPORTANT KEY
ISSUE FIRST, HOW DO YOU PAY
FOR DRUGS IN A CATASTROPHIC
SITUATION.
IN ONTARIO, THE TRILLIUM DRUG
PLAN WHICH IS DESIGNED DISCLY
TO DEAL WITH THOSE SITUATIONS
BUT'RE BUT THERE A NEED
BECAUSE YOUR KRUING DROFTS
OVER 3 PERCENT OF YOUR
NCHBLINGT SO, I THINK WE'RE
THERE BUT, CLEARLY HE WAS
WORRIED AGAIN ABOUT OTHER
PROVE SKPINS THEIR ABILITY TO
HAVE THAT EQUAL ACCESS.
CAN I SAY THIS TO THE
ONTARIO MEDIA THAT MIGHT BE WATCHING.
READING THE ROMAN AF -
WHEREVER AND THE UNEVENNESS OF
THE APPLICATION OF WHAT WE
WOULD CONSIDER CORE VALUES AND
STANDARDS ABOUT OUR HEALTH
SYSTEM THAT THE OTHER
PROVINCES HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE
TO KEEP UP.
WEE LUCKY IN ONTARIO. WE HAVE
A RICH PROVINCE, A GROWING
PROVINCE AND ECONOMICALLY
SOUND PROVINCE.
SO WE, WE LEAD THE WAY IN A
LOT OF WAYS THAT OTHER
PROVINCES HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING
TO CATCH UP IN.

Steve says HOW MUCH TIME DO WE HAVE HERE?
IS THAT INCLUDING THE GARY
CAR CLIP. I HAVE ONE MORE
BECAUSE I WANT TO SHOW A CLIP
AT THE END OF THIS THIS WAS
GREAT THIS WEEK.
ONE MORE THING NOW.
ROMANOW SAYS LET'S GETS ON
WITH THE JOB.
WHAT IS YOUR FIRST MOVE YOU TO DO THAT.

Tony says WE ARE HOLDING A PROVINCIAL
TERRITORIAL HEALTH MINISTERS
MEETING THIS TIME NEXT WEEK KP
IN A POSITION THAT POINT TO
START THE GET GAME PLANNING.
EYE FAMILIAR -- TO GET THE
BALL ROLLING. WE'LL HAVE SOME
RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE
FINISTEST MINIST SKPERS OUR
FIRST MINISTERS OUT OF THAT
MEETING.

Ruth says YOU ARE GOING
CONSTRUCTIVELY TO TRY TO GET

Tony says I WAS THE ONE THAT IN
SEPTEMBER WHEN WE LAST MET AND
HEALTH MINISTER SAID WE GOT TO
MEET RIGHT AFTER ROMANOW.
LET'S GET TOGETHER AND START
THE BALL ROLLING AND THAT'S
WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

Steve says ENDING THE ROMANOW. A
MINUTE AND A HALF TO TALK
ABOUT HOW POLITICIANS BEHAVE.
THIS WAS ONE HELL OF A WEEK IN
THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE GAUZE
GARY CAR THROUGH OUT HIS 35TH
AND 36TH MPP OR SOMETHING
LIKE. THAT HE JUST --
IT IS A MODERN DAY RECORD.
HE HAS NO INTEREST IN PUTTING
UP THE WITH BAD SKBAFER THIS
WEEK HE BLEW HIS STACK.

A clip plays of the Legislature.

The Speaker says WANT TO YELL ACROSS WHEN I'M
STANDING UP?
CONTINUE.

A caption reads “Gary Carr. Speaker of the Legislative Assembly.”

Carr continues
YOU CAN DO IT ALL ARN
AFTERNOON ALL I CARE.
EMBARRASS., ALL OF YOU.
DISGRACEFUL PERFORMANCE IN
HERE.
NOW WHILE WE'RE AT IT, DO WE
WANT TO THROW ANYBODY ELSE OUT
RIGHT NOW. YOU CAN ALL LEAVE
AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.
KIDS SITTING UP THERE,
ABSOLUTELY DISGRACEFUL
PERFORMANCE BY ALL OF YOU.

Steve says THE SPEAKER HAS THROWN A LOT
OF PEOPLE OUT BUT NEVER REALLY
LET YOU GUYS HAVE IT IN THAT
WAY BEFORE.

Ruth says IT WAS JUSTIFIED.

Steve says HE WAS JUSTIFIED.
TELL ME WHY, RUTH.

Ruth says I THINK IT IS DEGENERATED
INTO A SQUAB ELING OF -- I
WOULDN'T EVEN DIGNIFY 8 YEARS OLD.

Steve says FAR WORSE THAN WHEN YOU
WERE THERE.

Ruth says FAR WORSE.
AND THE LEVEL OF WHAT IS SAID
ON ALL SIDES ACROSS THE HOUSE
IS WORSE THAN IT WAS WHEN WE
WERE THERE AND THERE'S NO
RESPECT SHOWN.
AND BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR
OPPOSITION VIEWS AND BY THE
OPPOSITION FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
AND I THINK WE'RE ALL
DIMINISHED BY IT.

Tony says I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH, RUTH.
I THINK THIS IS A PLACE FOR
THE CRADLE OF OUR PROVINCIAL
DEMOCRACY TO HAVE REASONED DEBATE.
WHEN IT DEGENERATES IN SUCH A
WAY, I THINK IT IS SHAMEFUL
FOR ALL.

Steve says HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THROWN OUT?

Tony says NEVER.
I DON'T HECKLE.

Steve says YOU DON'T
HECKLE MUCH, DO YOU.
YOU ARE NOT ENTERTAINING IN
THAT ORDER.

Tony says I TRY TO LEAVE IT FOR OTHER VENUES.

Steve says OKAY.
THAT'S OUR TIME FOR THIS WEEK.
THANKS TO THE MINISTER OF
HEALTH VISITING US HERE AT TVO.
RUTH, RICK, MAC, THANK YOU FOR
YOUR PARTICIPATION AS WELL.
THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY, THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 291