Transcript: Show #288 | Nov 10, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON
FOURTH READING.
FEELING THE HEAT.
SOARING HYDRO RATES TAKE
CENTRE STAGE AT QUEEN'S PARK.

Steve, Ruth, and Richard, sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a beige coat over a black polo shirt, and a red flower on his lapel.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.
Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY AFTERNOON.
I AM STEVE PAIKIN YOU ARE
WATCHING FOR THE READING.
ELECTRICITY RATES GOING
THROUGHOUT ROOF.
IRATE HYDRO CUSTOMER
PWAOUFRPBING UP PHONE LINES
THEIR UTILITY COMPANIES.
MPPs I PILING PRT EARN
SHAOURPB PREMIERS OFFICE TO
DO SOMETHING QUICK.
AND IT ALL SPELLS POLITICAL
TROUBLE FOR THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT.
PREMIER ERNIE EVES PROMISING
RELIEF SOON MAYBE AS EARLY
AS TOMORROW BUT AS THE PARTY
PREPARE FOR POSSIBLE SPRING
ELECTION, MANY POLITICAL
WATCHERS SAY THERE IS
NOTHING SO DANGEROUS AS WHAT
ONE OPPOSITION CRITIC CALLS
THE HYDRO HYDRA.

A clip shows an MPP speaking at the Legislature.
A caption reads “John Baird. Ontario Energy Minister.”
John is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly black hair.

He says THE PREMIER IS CONCERNED
THAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT
FACT THAT FAMILIES AND
FARMERS AND SMALL BUSINESS
PEOPLE FACE WHEN THEY LOOK
AT THEIR ELECTRICITY BILLS.
AND THEY ARE CONCERNED FOR
FOURTH TURE.
PREMIER HAS ASKED TO TO LOOK
AT THE ISSUE RATELY LEAF AND
WHAT WE MIGHT DO ADDRESS THE
LEGITIMATE CONCERNS.
THAT WORKING FAMILIES AND
PROVINCE HAVE.

Steve says RECENT WEEKS CONSTIGUENTS
FROM ALL PARTIES HAVE BEEN
FLOODED WITH PHONE CALLS AND
LETTERS FROM WORRIED
ONTARIANS SOME OF WHO ENERGY
BILLS HAVE DOUBLED OVER LAST YEAR.

Now another politician speaks during an interview.
A caption reads “Michael Bryant. Liberal Energy Critic.”
Michael is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short auburn hair.

He says PEOPLE ARE HURTING.
IT IS NOT THAT PEOPLE ARE
CRANKY ABOUT THE BILLS.
THAT HE THEY ARE UNPOPULAR
OF COURSE THEY ARE ABOUT
THAT TOO.
IT IS FOR MANY PEOPLE THE
BILLS ARE UNAFFORDABLE THEY
CANNOT PAY THEM.
AND THAT IS REAL DIS DIS
THAT IS CURRENTLY BEFORE THE
GOVERNMENT.
AND THAT'S WHAT GOVERNMENT
HAS GOT TO FIX.

Steve says CRITICS SAY THE PLAN TO
DEREGULATE AND OPEN THE
HYDRO MARKETS IS TO BLAME.
THAT PLAN TOOK AFFECT A YEAR
AND HALF AGO.

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader."
Howard is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says WE SAID THREE YEARS AGO,
THAT DEREGULATING AND
PRIVATE ADVERTISING
ELECTRICITY INVITING WHOLE
BUNCH OF PROFIT TAKERS, FEE
TAKERS COMMISSION TAKERS AND
ADDING THEM TO SOMEONE HYDRO
BILL COULD NOT BY DEFINITION
RESULT IN LOWER PRICES.
BY DEFINITION, IT WOULD
RESULT IN MUCH HIGHER PRICES.

The caption changes to "Paul Kahnert. Ontario Electricity Coalition."
Paul is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair.

He says THE FACT ARE AND THESE
ARE THE FACT, THAT PUBLIC
POWER REGULATED POWER IS
CHEAPER THAN PRIVATE POWER
AROUND THE WORTH.
THE UNITED STATES, PUBLIC
REGULATED POWER IS 18 percent
CHEAPER.
THAN PRIVATE.
WHY WOULD WE BE ANY
DIFFERENT?

Steve says JOHN BARRED – HYDRO CRISIS.
EVEN PROMINENT MEMBERS OF
TORRE CAUCUS HAVE BEEN
OPENLY CRITICAL OF THE EAVES
GOVERNMENT'S HANDLING OF
HYDRO DEREGULATION.
HOUSE SPEAKER AND LABOR
MINISTER CHIEF AMONG THEM.

The caption changes to "Bill Murdoch. Conservative MPP."
Steve Murdoch is in his late fifties, with short gray hair and a full beard.

He says I HAVE CONFIDENCE IN JOHN
BAIRD AND ERNIE WILL WORK
THIS OUT.
BUT I MEAN WE GOT TO DO
SOMETHING BECAUSE PROBABLY
MOST SERIOUS PROBLEM WE HAVE
HAD SINCE I HAVE BEEN HERE
IN 12 YEARS.
IT IS AFFECT EVERYBODY.

Steve says PREMIER ERNIE EVES SAYS
HIS GOVERNMENT WILL FIND A
WAY OUT OF THE HYDRO QUAGMIRE.

Eves speaks at the Legislature.
A caption reads “Ernie Eves. Premier.”
Eves is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with gelled blond hair.

He says I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR
INDIVIDUAL MONTHS, THERE ARE
PEOPLE IN PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO WHO ARE HAVING
DIFFICULTY WE ARE GOING TO
COME UP WITH A PLAN AND YOU
WILL HEAR ABOUT IT VERY
SHORTLY.
AND IT WILL BECOME ACTIVE
IMMEDIATELY.
TO DEAL WITH THE PRICE
INCREASES FOR CONSUMERS IN
THE PROVINCE.

The clips end.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY.
WHAT KIND OF MICRO RATE
RELIEF CAN WE EXPECT FROM
THE CONSERVATIVE NEXT WEEK?
HERE TO GIVE US FEW HINTS WE
HOPE JOHN BAIRD MINISTER OF
ENERGY.
AND OUR QUEEN'S PARK
ANALYST.
RUTH CABINET AND O'MAHONY.
AND THIS WEEK JOHN MATH
ISON.
WELCOME TO TV SO NICE TO SEE
YOU AGAIN.
TAKE US BACK TO FIRST
PRINCIPALS WHY 18 MONTHS AGO
DID CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT
BELIEF IT WAS GOOD POLICY
CHANGE THE WAY HIGH THROW
WORKS IN THIS PROVINCE OPEN
UP THE ENERGY MARKET TO
COMPETITION?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "John Baird. Minister of Energy."
John is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair.
He’s wearing a black suit with a red flower on his lapel, a white shirt, and a checked brown tie.

He says I THINK OUR FUNDAMENTAL
POINT OF DEPART TUSH WE REAL
HRAOEULSD STATUS QUO WAS
SIMPLY UNSUSTAINABLE.
WE HAVE MANY PEOPLE
INCLUDING HOWARD WHO ARE
ARGUING WE SHOULD HAVE
PUBLIC POWER AT COST.
WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT IN MANY
YEARS IN ONTARIO PERHAPS
25-40 YEARS.
WE HAD 38 BILLION DOLLARS
WORTH OF DEBT BUILT UP AT
THE OLD ONTARIO HYDRO WE NOT
CONTINUE THAT'S 10,000
DOLLARS FOR EVERY FAMILY IN
THE PROVINCE.
SO WOULD HAD TAKE ACTION AND
WE HAD TO ENCOURAGE MORE
GENERATION.
I THINK GENERAL CONSENSUS
THAT COMPETITION IN THE
ENERGY GENERATION MARKET WAS
BEST WAY TO GO.

Steve says MORE GENERATION
MORE COMPETITION.
NOW THAT YOU HAVE DONE WHAT
YOU HAVE DONE, HAS THE
MARKET BEHAVED IN THE WAY
THAT YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD?

John Baird says WELL, I TINK THERE HAS
BEEN NUMBER OF THE CONCERNS
THE PREMIER EXPRESSIONED TO
MEET CONCERNS THAT HE HAS
HERD AND HIS TRAVELS I
CERTAIN LIAM SEE THEM IN MY
OWN RIDING.
I THINK RE CONCERNED ABOUT
BILL ON COFFEE TABLE AND
CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT FUTURE
HOLD AND STRATEGY PLAN
RATHER I WANTS SOME ACTION
AND WE WILL COMING FORWARD
WITH THAT ACTION ON MONDAY
TO DEAL WITH MEANINGFUL way.

Steve says you are BULLISH MARKET FORCES LET
THE MARKET TAKE OVER.
AND I AM CURIOUS AS TO
WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THE
MARKET HAS FACT WAY THAT YOU
EXPECTED TO WOULD WHEN YOU
ANNOUNCED THIS POLICY 18
MONTHS AGO.

John Baird says THERE IS THREE
CHALLENGES WE FACED SOMEONE
WE HAD DELAYS AT PICKERING
END OF THE DAY THE BUCK
STOPS ON MY DESK.
I AM NOT HAPPY WITH OPP'S
PERFORMANCE.
THAT'S 2000 MEGA WATTS OF
POWER WE COULD HAVE ON-LINE.
SECOND.
HE WOULD SEEM TO REALLY
ABOUT 50,000 MEGA WATTS
THAT'S TWICE AS MUCH POWER
THAT WE NEED TO USE ON OUR
PEAK DAY IN ONTARIO.
50 THOUSAND REGULAR WATTS OF
ACROSS NORTH AMERICA THAT'S
HAD AFFECT IN ONTARIO
BECAUSE TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT
WE LIVE IN AND THIRD WE HAVE
REALLY ONE OF THE MOST
UNPRECEDENTED SUMMERS IN
ABOUT 50 YEARS.
WHERE WEATHER WAS HOT AND
DEMAND WENT UP.
BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY WE
ARE PWHRAEUPLG MOTOR NATURE.
THE PREMIER WANTS ACTION.
AND WE WILL BE DELIVERING
ACTION SOME ACTION ITEMS ON
MONDAY.

Steve says LET ME PICK UP ON
THE FIRST THINGS YOU
MENTIONED PICK WAS PICK
ERRINGING THE REACTIONTORES
HAVE BEEN OFFLINE ARE NOT
GOING BACK ON-LINE FOR MUCH
LONGER IN THE FUTURE SHOULD
GOVERNMENT HAVE WAITED UNTIL
PICKERING WAS BACK IN
BUSINESS BEFORE GOING TO
THIS POLICY IF GENERATION
HAS BEEN A PROBLEM?

John Baird says YOU KNOW THERE WAS CERTAINLY
THERE WAS VIEW OF THE
INDEPENDENT MART OPERATOR
WHO YOU KNOW WROTE TO THE MY
PREDECESSORS BEFORE THE
MARKET OPENED SAID THAT
THERE SHOULD BE ENOUGH POWER.
TO AFTER I LOW HEALTHY
COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT.
I THINK WHEN THAT COUPLED
WITH 50 YOU KNOW 50 YEAR
RECORD FOR HEAT HEAT WAVES
BLANK ETING THE PROVINCE
MOST OF SUMMER YOU KNOW
CERTAINLY DIDN'T HELP.
BUT, YOU KNOW IF THIS WAS
EASY PROCESS.
GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE DONE
IT IN PAST AND THAT'S WHY
THE PREMIER THINKS IT IS
IMPORTANT AND TAKE SOME
ACTION AND THAT WHAT
CONSUMER WANT AND THAT WHAT
ERNIE EVES WILL THE DELIVERING.

Steve says WE HAVE LOTS OF ADVICE FOR
YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE.
I WANT TO GO RUTH BECAUSE
THE NDP HAS CHAMPIONED THIS
ISSUE IN FROM THE GET-GO
WHAT SHOULD DOE NOW?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WHAT HE SHOULD DO NOW IS
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT MARKET
FORCES FOR A PUBLIC UTILITY
AND ESSENTIAL UTILITY LIKE
HYDRO HAVE NOT WORKED ANY
WHERE AND WILL NOT WORK IN
ONTARIO AND HE SHOULD STOP
THE MAD SCHEME TO SELL-OFF
OUR GENERATING CAPACITY.
AND START REREGULATING BUT I
WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT THE
MINISTER SAID AT THE
BEGINNING IS THAT REASON FOR
ALL OF THIS.
AS OPPOSED TO YOUR PREMISES
THAT PERHAPS THE THERE WERE
SOME BELIEF IN THE MARKET.
MINISTER QUOTES THE DEBT.
THE DEBT HAS BEEN MORTGAGE
ON THE INVESTMENT IN UTILITY
FOREVER.
AND HAS BEEN MANAGED WITHIN
RATE STRUCTURE.
FOR DECADES.
AND IN FACT, IN LAST THREE
YEARS THAT HE WOULD HAVE HAD
THE GOVERNMENT THE DEBT
BEGAN TO GO DOWN.

Steve says IT DID.

Ruth says SO EVERY UTILITY AS EVERY
COMPANY, HAS DEBT.
AND TO CLAIM THAT THAT IS
REASON THAT WE ARE SELLING
OFF THIS PRICELESS ASSET AND
NO LONGER TO POWER AT COST I
THINK DEMONSTRATES HOW SHORT
SITE ILL THOUGHT OUT THIS
PROJECT IS.

John Baird says LET ME ADDRESS THAT HEAD ON.
WHEN THE NDP IN POWER TO BE
FAIR THE DEBT WENT UP BY 3
BILLION DOLLARS.
THAT'S ADDITION TO 50
BILLION DOLLARS THAT WAS
BORROWED TO MANAGE OUR DAY
TO DAY FINANCES.
WHAT ALSO HAPPENED IS THAT
YOU KNOW FOR AVERAGE FAMILY
IF THEY COULD EXCLUDE THEIR
MORTGAGE PAYMENT AND DIDN'T
HAVE TO MAKE THAT AND COULD
SAVE SAY LIVING WITHIN THEIR
MEALS THAT WOULD NOT REALITY.
IN THE REALITY OVER LAST 40
OR 50 YEARS THE DEBT WENT UP
AND UP AND UP THERE WAS
NEVER PLAN TO PAY IT OFF.
IT VIRTUALLY WITHOUT
EXCEPTION WENT UP.
MAYBE FOR THREE OR FOUR
YEARS IT SKY ROCKETED AND
FOR ONE TWO IT WENT DOWN A BIT.
EVEN OVER FIVE YEARS IT YOU
WHY IN IT WENT UP.

Ruth says WE TOOK THAT INTO ACCOUNT
JUST AS WHAT I SPENT ON MY HOUSE.

John Baird says YOU GOT TO PAY INTEREST
BUT BANKERS EXPECTATIONS YOU
TO PAY DOWN THE PRINCIPAL.

Ruth says WE WERE DOING THAT.

Steve says MORE ADVISE FROM LIBERALS.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says FAIR ENOUGH POINT THAT JOHN
MAKES ON THE COST THAT DEBT
AND DEBT BEING TOO HIGH BUT
IT ALSO RAISES ANOTHER POINT.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT KNEW,
WHEN IT WENT AHEAD WITH ITS
PLAN TO DEREGULATE, AND
BREAK UP ONTARIO HYDRO IT
KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS
HAPPENING.
AND IN TERMS OF THE ONLY IT
KNEW, THE OF PROBLEMS THAT
PICKERING A WAS HAVING THEY
KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE
SUPPLY PROBLEM.
THEY ARE PEOPLE IN BEST
POSITION TO NOW BASE THEY
RUN ONTARIO POWER GENERATION
WHO MAKES SUPPLY.
POINT NUMBER ONE.
POINT NUMBER 2 WHEN THEY
DEREGULAR YOU GOOD LATED WE
GOT THIS BILL WHICH IS
COMPLETELY CONFUSION.
I HAVE GOT YOU KNOW AR
DEGREE OR TWO AND I
SCRATCHED MY HEAD EVERY TIME
I LOOK AT IT.
AS I HAVE COME LOOK AT IT
WHAT HAPPENS EVEN THOSE OF
HAVE ACTUALLY GONE INTO ONE
OF THESE FIXED PLANS WHERE
YOU ARE ELECTRICITY SKAP
COST, ARE NOW SURPRISED TO
FIND OUT THAT GET WHAT, YOUR
HYDRO BILL IS NOT CAPPED
BECAUSE, WE HAVE A SHORTAGE
OF SUPPLY, THE GOVERNMENT
HAS TO GO OUT AND BUY MORE
POWER.
AND WE ARE CHARGED FOR THAT.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU BUY POWER
FROM OUTSIDE OF THE PROVINCE
IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE WE GET
A CHARGE SO YOUR BILL GOES UP.
P. THE GOVERNMENT KNEW IT.
MR. BAIRD TALK ABOUT A PLAN
ON STKPHAOEUFPBLT PLAN THAT
HE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE HAD
WHEN DEREGULATED THIS THING
FIRST PLACE.
THE ALL OF THIS STUFF YOU
HAVE THIS WILL MAKING POLICY
ON THE FLY THAT IS HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW, IS ONLY AT THEIR
PLACE HE SAYS I HAVE PLAN ON
MONDAY.
WE WILL WAIT FOR THIS.
BUT PREMERE MAKE ALL SORT OF
POLL SEEN THE FLY.

Steve says TELL US HOW -- YOU
ARE NOT CABINET MINISTER YOU
CAN CHOOSE TO DEFEND THIS IN
DIFFERENT WAY IF YOU WOULD
LIKE TO AS PEOPLE WATCH THIS
AND SHE HAVE SEEN WHAT'S
HAPPENINGS TO BILLS AND EVEN
THOUGH THE WEATHER HAS
COUPLED DOWN A BIT.
THE BILLS HAVE NOT CALMED
DOWN AT ALL.
HOW WOULD YOU DEFENDED
GOVERNMENT'S DECISION ON
THIS FILE?

The caption changes to "John Matheson. Ontario P.C. Advisor."
John is in his thirties, clean-shaven, with wavy brown hair and glasses. He’s wearing a black suit with a red flower on his lapel, a beige shirt, and a striped blue tie.

He says WELL, THEY HAVE DONE THE
ONLY THING THAT THEY COULD
DO IF YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE
AND LOOK AFTER MAJOR ASSET
OF THE PROVINCE THE WAY THEY DID.
THEY LOOKED AT THE RATIO
BETWEEN THE DEBT THAT THEY
HAD TO LOOK AFTER ON
LONG-TERM I CAN'T AGREE WITH
RUT THE DEBT WAS SERIOUS
PROBLEM BECAUSE OF EXACTLY
THE POINT THAT RICHARD IS
MAKING THE NEED TO HAVE
FURTHER INVESTMENT IN
CAPACITY AND GENERATION
CAPACITY.
THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE
MONEY THAT WE NEED FOR
FUTURE GENERATION WAS TO
OPEN THE MARKET TO NEW
PARTICIPANTS.
NOW, THE THERE HAVE BEEN
SOME DIFFICULTIES WHICH HAVE
MADE THIS A BUMPY STARTING
POINTS.
BUT THE GOVERNMENT ALSO
CONTEMPLATED THAT WHEN IT
SET UP THE LEGISLATIVE
FRAMEWORK FOR IT AND I THINK
YOU ARE GOING SEE THE WAY IN
WHICH THEY WILL USE SOME OF
THOSE TOOLS TO THAW THEY SET
UP TO COMPENSATE FOR IT WHEN
THEY MAKE ANNOUNCEMENT NEXT
WEEK.

Richard says IT WOULDN'T NO HAVE
BETTER KNOWING GENERATION
PROBLEMS TO HAVE DELAYED THE
VERY LEAST, DELAYED THE
ANNOUNCEMENT THAT GOVERNMENT
WANTED TO MAKE FOUR WHATEVER
REASON IT DID.
UNTIL GENERATION PROBLEM
WERE SOLVED.

John Matheson says THAT PRECISELY WHAT WOULD YOU DO
DELAY AND DELAY IF YOU WANT
NEVER WANT TO GET ON IT.
WHAT YOU HAVE GOT TO DO WHEN
YOU ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS
PROBLEM AS BIG AS THIS IS
HAVE SOME COMMIT MENT END
RESULT GET GOING A AND A
MAKE SURE WILL YOU MAKE.

Ruth says BUT, THE GOVERNMENT SAYS IT
NEEDS NEW INVESTMENT IN
GENERATION.
WHAT INVESTORS ALWAYS LOOK
FOR IS CERTAINTY.
AND ANYWHERE AROUNDED GLOBE,
THAT YOU LOOK AT UTILITY,
THERE IS HAVE BEEN
DEREGULATED AND HAVE GOT NO
LONG-TERM CERTAINLY FRONT OF
THEM, CAPITAL IS VERY HARD
TO RAISE.
AND SO, BY DEREGULATING YOU
CREATED UNTRERPBTY THAT IS
GOING TO DRIVE CAPITAL
SWAEUPLZ.
LET'S LONE ATTRACT IN.

John Baird says CAN I GET JOHN TO SPEAK THAT.
RICHARD ARE NO FROM OTTAWA.
ATON GOES AROUND OTTAWA ALL
TIE I AM SAYING AGAINST THIS
AND HE DOES NOT LIKE BELIEVE
AT YOU WILL GOES SO FAR HE
VOTED AGAINST COMPETITION.
PUT, IN LAST MONTH WE HAVE
COME ACROSS -- I KNOW WOULD
BELIEVE SOEFP I ACTUALLY
BREATHE A COPY OF IT IN LAST
MONTH WE HAVE UNKWOFRD, THAT
HE SAYS ONE THING WHES
OTTAWA BUT ANOTHER THING IN TORONTO.

He takes out a small flip chart and continues
HERE IS LETTER FROM SEAN CONWAY.
HIS OFFICIAL SPOKESMAN.
THROUGHOUT ONTARIO PROCESS,
ONTARIO LIBERALS HAVE BEEN
CONSISTENT SUPPORTERS OF THE
MOVE OPEN ELECTRICITY MARKET
IN ONTARIO.
PLEASE SEND ME 350 DOLLARS.
AND THIS IS OCTOBER 31 OF
LAST YEAR.
WITHIN LAST YEAR.
SO WE HAVE HIM SAYING ONE
THING IN OTTAWA BUN BUTT
TROLG FOR BUCKS ON BAY
STREET TO FUND HIS NEGATIVE
ATTACKS ON THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT HE IS SAYING
QUITE ANOTHER AND YOU CAN'T
GET SITUATION WITH THAT.
WHERE DOES HE STAND?
IT IS LIKE STAPLE JELLO TO
THE WALL.

Steve says WELL, WE AM -- WE LOVE IT
WHEN JOHN VISION IS ITS OUR
PROGRAM AND BRINGS PROPS AND
HE USUALLY HAS THESE PROPS
DIRECTED AT YOU.
AND.

Ruth says HE DOES.

John Baird says AND IN FAVOUR OF IN TERMS
TRANSMISSION AND GENERATION
AND THEN HE SAYS I HAVE BEEN
VERY CONSISTENT WITH RESPECT
TO HYDRO.
WHICH ONE DO WE BELIEVE?
HE SAYS ONE THING ON ONE DAY
AND ANOTHER THING ON ANOTHER DAY.

Steve says EQUAL TIME FOR RICHARD.

Richard says THANK YOU.

Steve says ARE YOU FINISHED
WITH THE PROBLEM NOW.
YOU CAN PUT IT DOWN NOW IF
YOU WANT.

Richard says I LOVE WHEN JOB PWREUPBGS
ON PROPS AND HE LOVES MY
REACTION BECAUSE WE ARE TOLD
WE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT ON
THIS PROGRAM.
THE LAST TIME HE WAS ON
PROGRAM HE BROUGHT A
NEEDLES.
TO SHOW US ABOUT THE
HORRIBLE THINGS THAT WERE
HAPPENING –

Steve says EQUAL TIME.
EQUAL TIME.

Richard says TO HOERPLS THINGS THAT
WERE HAPPENING TO PEOPLE ON
WELFARE IN THIS PROVINCE
MR. BAIRD WAS LEADING
CRACKDOWN IN PEOPLE HE ON O
WELFARE.
ONE BEFORE THAT MORE
INTERESTING RELATES TO HE
PROPS ON THIS PROGRAM TO
TALK ABOUT THE GREAT TAX CUT
PROMISE IN LAST ELECTION.
WHICH THEY HAVE NOW GONE
BACK ON WHICH THEY ARE
ELECTED ON.
AND IN FACT, THE REBATE THAT
HE IS ABOUT TO GIVE US NEXT
WEEK ON HYDRO ONE WILL TAKE
ANY CHANCE THEY HAVE TO DO
TAX CUT.
LET'S RESPOND TO HIS THINKS.
HE HAVING SOME FUND WITH
THIS.
SENSE THAT –

John Baird interrupts and says I AM FAVOURING PRIVATIZATION.

Steve says WE DO NEED TO HEAR HIM OUT.

Richard says WHAT YOU KNOW IS THAT HE
IS HAS SAID ON ONTARIO POWER
GENERATION, THE PEOPLE THAT
MAKE SUPPLY, WE ARE HE HAS
SPOKEN IN FAVOUR OF THE BOTH
THE DEREGULATION OF THAT AND
PRIVATIZATION OF THAT AND
WHY HE HAS DONE THAT IS
BECAUSE WE HAVE A SHORTAGE
OF SUPPLY.
SO IN THAT SENSE, THERE SOME
AGREEMENT IN THE GOVERNMENT.
THE SECOND THING WHERE WE
DISAGREE WITH GOVERNMENT IS
THAT WE SPOKEN OUT VERY MUCH
IN FAVOUR OF ENDING THE COAL
FIRE THE DIRTY ELECTRICITY
THAT IS IN THIS ADVANCES AND
WE HAVE A PLAN TO INCREASE
SUPPLY CLEAN SUPPLY IN THAT
REGARD.
AND SO WE DIFFER FROM THEM
IN THAT REGARD.
WHERE -- THE THIRD THING HE
HAS RIGHT THERE IN HIS OWN
PROP WHERE WE DIFFER FROM
THE GOVERNMENT QUITE QUITE
DIRECTLY IS IN PRIVATIZATION
OF HYDRO ONE IS WHICH
DISTRIBUTION.
HE SAYS RIGHT THERE.
I THINK IT SHOULD BE LEFT IN
PUBLIC HANDS.
AND OF COURSE HE KNOWS FROM
THE BEGINNING THAT HE HAS
BEEN AGAINST THAT.
AND HAS LED -- THE FIGHT IN
PROVINCE.
HE KNOWS THAT NOW.

Steve says IF WE CAN, PLEASE.
I THINK YOU HAVE HAD CHANCE
TO SHOW YOUR PROP IF YOU CAN
PUT IT BACK DOWN ON THE
FLOOR NOW.
TKWRAOUPBLTD SAY?

John Matheson says WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING
ABOUT LIBERALS USUALLY THEY
WAIT UNTIL ELECTION TO BREAK
THEIR PROMISE THIS WOULD.

Richard says YOU CERTAINLY DO THAT.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE BROKEN YOUR
TAX CUTS AND ABOUT THE HYDRO IT'S.

John Matheson says THAT WOULD BE NEW
INNOVATION.
THE PREBROKEN PROMISE.
WHERE THEY SET UP THE
CONDITIONS THEY GOING TO GO AHEAD.

[Mixed voices, heated argument]

Steve says OKAY.
PLEASE, PEOPLE.
THE ONE THING I GET LETTERS
ABOUT MORE THAN ANYTHING IS
EVERYBODY SPEAKING AT ONCE
SO I WILL TRY TO KEEP
CIVILIZED DISCUSSION.
CAN JOHN BAIRD WE SAY, WITH
A GREAT DEAL OF CERTAINTY,
THAT THERE MUST BEING
SOMETHING WRONG ABOUT THIS
POLICY BECAUSE YOUR BACK
BENCHERS ARE STARTING
COMPLAIN ABOUT IT?

John Baird says I THINK OUR MEMBERS OF
OUR CAUCUS ARE JUST LIKE MEN
AND WOMEN THROUGHOUT ONTARIO
CONCERNED ABOUT THE HYDRO
BILLS AND AFFECT THEY ARE
HAVING.
WHETHER IT IS ON SMALL
BUSINESS SOMEONE OPERATING
DRY CLEANER OR WHETHER IT IS
SOMEONE WITH LARGE FAMILY IN
LONDON.
THEY ARE BRINGING THOSE
CONCERNS TO TABLE AND I WILL
TELL YOU THE SAME CONCERNS
THAT I HAVE AND PREMIER AND
EAVES HAS.
THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE GOT TO
SOME ACTION TO DEAL WITH THE
HIGH BILLS PEOPLE HAVE ONE
KITCHEN TABLE RIGHT NOW.
AND SOME ACTION ON THE FUTURE.

Ruth says BUT I MEAN, YOUR BACK
BENCHERS LIABILITY REST OF
THE PEOPLE NUMBER PROVINCE
HEARD MINISTER AFTER
MINISTER BEFORE YOU, SAY
THERE WILL BE NO RATE
INCREASE.
OPEN UP THE MARKET
DEREGULATED AND ELECTRICITY
PRICES WILL GO DOWN.

Richard says AT ONE POINT -- THEY
PROMISED CHEAPER RATES.

Ruth says YES.
CHEAPER RATES WAS PROMISE.

Steve says CAN WE BE CLEAR ABOUT
THAT I REMEMBER ASKING
MR. HARRIS THIS ABOUT A
DIRECTLY.
WHEN HE WAS PREMIER.
I DON'T KNOW THAT HE
ACTUALLY SAID IN THE SHORT
RUN THE PRICES WILL ACTUALLY
GO DOWN HE SAID THEY WILL GO
UP LESS THAN THEY MIGHT
OTHERWISE.

Ruth says THERE WAS CLEAR
ASSUMPTIONS BY THE PEOPLE
IMPLEMENTED THIS POLICY THAT
RATES WOULD GO DOWN.
THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG
AS THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN
WRONG EVERYWHERE ELSE THEY
DEREGULATED.

Steve says COULD YOU SAY THIS
THINK JUNCTURE?

Ruth says YES THERE NO QUESTION
THEY ARE GOING TO BE WRONG.

Steve says IT HAS BEEN ONLY BEEN IN
PLACE FOR YEAR AND HALF.
THEY ARE SAYING THEY GOING
TO PUTTING OUT REBATES.
HOW ARE THEY GOING PAY
FORECAST REBATES?
THAT'S GOING TO HAVE TO COME
FROM SOMEWHERE.
THEY SAY THERE WILL BE NEW
PRIVATE GENERATION COMING.
THAT'S GOING TO HAVE BE PAID
FOR.
THERE IS NOTHING IN THE
FORECAST THAT INDICATES
ANYTHING ABOUT RATES GOING
DOWN.
AND THEN WILL PRIVATE RIGHT
INVESTMENT THAT COMES IN AND
GENERATION THAT HAS TO BE
PAID FOR THE LIKELIHOOD
RATES WILL CONTINUE TO GO UP
AND TIME FOR THEM TO SAY IT
IS NOT WORKING.
WE ARE GOING TO REVERSE
COURSE.
AND WE ARE GOING STOP THIS
CRAZY APPROACH.

Richard says IF END RESULT IS THAT END
AT THE END OF THE DAY RATES
ARE GOING TO GO UP THEN WHAT
YOU OUGHT TO DO WHETHER IT
IS PUBLICLY OWNED COMPANY IN
PUBLICLY REGULATED
DEREGULATED MARSH YOU SHOULD
BE HONEST AND SAY LOOK WE
ARE GOING TO HAVE PAY MORE
FOR ELECTRICITY.
AND HERE IS A PLAN OF 5-6 percent
INCREASE OVER NEXT TEN YEARS
WHICH WILL ALLOW TO US GO
THERE.
THE PROBLEM IS RIGHT NOW YOU
HAVE HAD PEOPLE WITH 20-30 percent
INCREASE OVER THE COURSE OF
THE LAST FEW MONTHS.
AND THERE ARE 4 MILLION
HYDRO ACCOUNTS IN THE SUMMER.
IT YOU GIVE MEANINGFUL
REBATE OF SAY AT LEAST 100
DOLLARS THAT IS 400 MILLION
DOLLARS THAT'S BIG MONEY.

Ruth says 450 MILLION DOLLARS FOR
80 DOLLAR REBATE IN THE
ORIGINAL FORECAST FOR THIS.
AND SO, THE QUESTION IS
GOING TO BE, IF THE REBATE
IS MORE THAN THAT, WHERE IS
GOING TO COME FROM?
AND MY MIWORRY IS THIS WILL
COME FROM THOSE FUNDS ARE
SUPPOSED TO BE PAYING DOWN
THE DEBT.
THAT MINISTER ALLEGES HE SO
WORRIED ABOUT.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS
WE LIKE TO DO ON THIS SHOW
FIND OUT POLITICIANS MAKE THE
DECISIONS THEY MAKE.
AND OBVIOUSLY FOR PAST
COUPLE WEEKS AS THE YOU KNOW
OUTCRY HAS BEEN COMING INTO
YOUR OFFICE THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE MEDIA GET PHONE CALLS
ABOUT IT.
YOU HAVE BEEN CONSIDERING A
NUMBER OPTION.
CAN YOU TELL US HOW TELL US
FIRST ALL WHAT OPTION ARE ON
THE TABLE.
THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS
STUDIED

John Baird says WELL WE WILL COME
FORWARD SWOPL ACTION ON
MONDAY.
SPECULATE I DON'T SPECULATE.

Steve says I AM NOT SAYING
MAKES YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT.
WHAT ARE YOU CONSIDERING.

John Baird says I GUESS TWO ISSUES ONE
RESPECT TO IMMEDIATE PROBLEM
WITH BILLS ON PEOPLE'S TABLE
WITH RESPECT TORY BAITS.
REBATES HAVE BEEN PART OF
THE PLAN.
THEY RIGHT IN ONTARIO POWER
GENERATION.

Steve says BUT THEY WEREN'TED PLAN MAY.

John Baird says THEY ARE THERE BECAUSE
WHAT WE RECOGNIZE IS THAT
ONTARIO POWER GENERATION
CONTROLS MORE THAN 07 percent OF
THE MARKET.
AND WHEN ONE PLAYER HAS SUCH
DOMINANT POSITION, CONSUMERS
NEED SAFEGUARD IN FACT
ONTARIO POWER GENERATION
RELEASED ITS THIRD QUARTER
NUMBERS AND THEY HAVE GOT
WELL NEXT SEFS HALF BILLION
DOLLARS OF MONEY SITTING
THERE THAT'S OWED CONSUMER I
DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE
TOP WAIT FOR THAT AND
ANOTHER ISSUE RELEASED
REPORT AND OBVIOUSLY THEY
MADE SUBSTANTIAL MORE MONEY
THE A THIRD QUARTER I DON'T
THINK IT SHOULD BE CHOICE
BETWEEN HOSPITAL FUNDING OR
HYDRO REBATES.

Steve says REBATES ONE OF
THINGS THAT YOU ARE BEING
LOOK AT.
THE OTHER THING HAD A WOULD
HAVE A ERRED BRAD CLARKE
YOUR CABINET COLLEAGUE HAS
SUGGESTED PUTTING FREEZE
OPERATES.
CAP THEM.
FOR TEN YEARS IS WHAT HE
SUGGEST SD THAT -- OBVIOUSLY
IS NOT MINISTER OF ENERGY HE
MAY HAVE BEEN SPEAKING AS
YOU KNOW ON TARNIAN AS
OPPOSED TO SPOKESPERSON FOR
THE GOVERNMENT IN THAT CASE.
BUT IS THAT ONE OF THE
OPTION YOU ARE GOING TO LOOK
AT KWL.

John Baird says WELL WE LOOKED RANGE OF
OPTION AND WE WILL COME
FORWARD WITH THAT ACTION ON
MONDAY.

Steve says IS THAT ONE OF THE
OPTION?

John Baird says I NON GOTING TO.

Steve says YOU CAN TELL US IF YOU
ARE BE LOOK AT AM

John Baird says I WILL NOT
MAKE ANNOUNCEMENT HERE TONIGHT.
WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT WE
HAVE LOOKED A LOT OF OPTION
WE HAVE GOT A LOT OF GOOD
ADVICE.
FROM ALL PARTIES HAVE BEEN
FREE WITH ADVICE.
AS HAVE PEOPLE IN GROCERY
STORES.

Steve says OKAY.
OKAY.
YOU KNOW INDUSTRY HATES THE
NOTION OF CAPPING.
THEY SAY ONCE YOU CAP, YOU
GET A US BACK SAME PROBLEMS
WE HAD BEFORE.
WHICH IS UNPREDICTABILITY NO
REASON FOR ANYBODY TO COME
IN AND INVEST IN PROVINCE.
COMPANY FROM NEW YORK AS YOU
KNOW ALREADY SAID THEY ARE
NOT GOING BUILD TRANSMISSION
GRIDS HERE WHICH THEY
INTENDED TO.

John Baird says WHICH SEEMED RATHER ODD
SUGGESTS.
WE CERTAINLY HEARD CONCERNS
THAT INVESTORS HAVE HAD.
THERE HAS BEEN DRY UP OF LOT
OF INVESTMENT IN NORTH
AMERICA NOT JUST HERE IN
ONTARIO.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HOW
CLOSELY YOU CAN LINK THAT.
WE ARE GOING LOOK WHAT WILL
TAKE TO HAVE BALANCED
APPROACH WE ARE CONSUMERS
GET SOME ACTION, AND RELIEF.
AND NOW, AND IN THE FUTURE
WHAT WILL THE ALSO BALANCE
TO ENSURE WE GET MORE
INVESTMENT BECAUSEZ-WE HAVE
WHEN WE HAVE MORE SUPPLY THE
PRICE WILL COME DOWN.

Ruth says THE ONE OF THE FIERCE IS
NATURE THE MARKET IS SUCH
THAT THE PLAYERS CAN THAT
NIP PAW LATE THE PRICES AND
I WONDER AS YOU LOOK FOR
SOLUTION YOU ARE GOING
CONCEDING TO THE COMPANY IN
YOUR FOR FOR THE GET THEM TO
INVEST THAT KIND THE AND
CAPACITY PAYMENT THAT WE
HAVE SEE IN OTHER
JURISDICTION WHERE THE U.S.
AND ARE BACKING OUT OF.
THAT GET COMPANY TO PRODUCE
POWER AND HOLD IT THERE IN
RESERVE IN CASE IT IS NEEDED.
AND THEN, IF ONTARIO DOES
NOT NEED, IT CAN BEING PAID
BY ONTARIO AND IT SELLS OFF
SOMEWHERE ELSE AS EVEN
HIGHER PRICE.
I MEAN -- NATURE OF THE
POWER MARKET IS VERY COMPLEX.
VERY UNPRETKEUBL DISTRICT
ACT AND HAS ALWAYS ONLY
WORKED FOR LARGE INDUSTRIAL
ECONOMIES.
WHEN IT HAS BEEN PUBLICLY
OWNED SOME OF THE WITH EVERY
MOVE THIS GOVERNMENT MAKES,
WE GET INTO AREAS THAT ARE
MORE RISKY AND NO CONFIDENCE
IN THE GAME PLAN.

Steve says LET ME ASK THE
QUESTION THEN.
I REREGULATION OR BUYING
BACK OR REANALYZING THE
POWER THAT'S PRODUCED IN
THIS PROVINCE A OPTION FOR
YOUR GOVERNMENT?

John Baird says WE HAVE NOT SOLD ONTARIO
POWER GENERATION OR HYDRO
ONE WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING
TO TAKE BACK.
WHAT I CAN SAY AGREE TOTALLY
WITH RAOUT ONE OF THE THINGS
PREDER IS HE STRONG
UNDERLINED SAID TO ME, THAT
THERE WAS NO ROOM IN
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO FOR ANY
ONE WHO INTHECLY OR
UNPROFESSIONALLY IN
MARKETPLACE.
POINT STOP.
THERE IS NO ROOM FOR THAT.

Steve says HAS THAT BEEN PROP SO FAR?

John Baird says INDEPENDENT MARKET
OPERATOR HAS MARKET PANEL
THAT REGULARLY WATCHES OUT
FOR THESE ISSUES.
BUT THAT'S ONE THING WITH
WHICH THE PREMIER UNDERLINED
VERY STRONG AND FORCEFUL WAY.
NO ROOM FOR ANYONE TO ACT
LIKE THAT IF THEY DO WE WILL
THROW THE BOOK AT THEM.

Steve says.

Richard says JOHN RAISED INTERESTING
POINT FAMILY GETTING POWER
CUT OFF THE QUESTION WAS
BROUGHT UP TO PREMIER AND HE
TALKED ABOUT ONTARIO ENERGY
BOARD DIRECTIVE SAYING TO
HYDRO COMPANIES YOU CAN'T DO THAT.
IT WAS POINTED OUT NO SUCH
DIRECTIVE EXIST.
THE PREMIER OFFICE SAID THAT
WAS A DIRECTIVE GIVEN BY
MINISTER BAIRD TO HYDRO ONE.
AND HE ALSO OFFICE WAS UNYOU
AWARE OF THAT PARTICULAR
DIRECTIVE.
WE ARE MAKE SORT OF POLICY
HERE.

John Baird says THE DAY BEFORE ERNIE EVES
SAID TO ME HE DID WANT
PEOPLE CUT OFF HAVE HYDRO
CUT OFF TPREPBLG GID COLD
WEATHER.
WE ARE SHAREHOLDER OF HYDRO
ONE.
BIGGEST LOCAL DISTRIBUTOR IN
THE PROVINCE WE ISSUED THAT
DIRECTEDIVE TO THIS WEEK.

Ruth says WHO GOING ABSORB THE KOFT
COST OF THAT

John Baird says IN OUT WATT
LOCAL OUT YOU THE HAS LONG
HAD A POLICY THAT THEY PUT
NEEDS OF VULNERABLE PERSON
AHEAD OF THE SHAREHOLDER AND
AHEAD OF THE FINANCIAL
PROFIT THERE GOOD CORPORATE
RESPONSIBILITY.

Richard says SO THAT PEOPLE SO THAT
PEOPLE CAN AFFORD THEIR HYDRO.
AND WE NEED TO HAVE A
GOVERNMENT THAT HAS
LEADERSHIP.
THAT SORT OF SAYS, THAT THE
DIRECTION AND SUGGESTS AND
GIVES INCENTIVES TO ALL US
TO START CONSERVE OFING
ENERGY.

Ruth says THAT'S CONTRADICTION.

John Matheson says THAT'S THE LEADERSHIP
POINTED WHY COULD YOU HAVE
KEEP GOING IN DIRECTION YOU
START YOU CAN'T FLIP BACK ON
AND OFF LIKE LIGHT SWEFP
WITH THE OTHER POINT PART
YOU STARTING TO MAKE WHICH
YOU HAVE GOT TO HELP WE HAVE
GOT ALL PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING
HOW TO BEHAVE IN THE NEW MARKET.
BECAUSE IT IS FUNDAMENTAL
CHANGE THAT PEOPLE AREN'T
USED TO.
AND GETTING PEOPLE TO THINK
ABOUT CONSERVATION.
GETTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THERE IS CHOICE
INCREASED USAGE.
IS BIG COMPONENT TO IN.
AND WHEN YOU ASK THE
QUESTION PWHAPL DO YOU HAVE
TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHEN YOU
ARE MAKING POLICY ONE OF THE
REAL INTERESTING THINGS I
THE GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE
HAD DEAL WITH HERE PEOPLE
ARE NOT AWARE OF THE SCOPE
OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE HAVE.
BEYOND THE THINGS THAT'S ON
KITCHEN TABLE AND KITCHEN
TABLE PROBLEM HUGE THE BILL
SCARY BILL AND THAT'S WHY
THE GOVERNMENT MOVING.
THE BIGGER QUESTION IS DOWN
THE ROAD, HOW DO YOU GET
GENERATION THAT YOU NEED?
AND THAT'S WHAT THE.

Ruth says IMPORTANT CONTRADICTION IN
ALL OF THIS YOU DEREGULATE
AND THEN IMMEDIATELY
REREGULATE.
IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE
CONSUMERS WHO ARE HURT BY
THE DEREGULATION.
IT DOESN'T THAT SOUND STUPID
TO YOU?

John Matheson says BECAUSE TPAEUGZ SOMETHING
IN WHAT YOU ARE DOING
UNDOING 40 YEARS WORTH OF
ONE SET PRACTICE TO HELP
POPULATION GET USED TO
CHANGE THAT HAS TO HAPPEN.

[Mixed voices]

Ruth says THERE WEREN'T THAT MANY
PROBLEMS WITH THE PREVIOUS
PRACTICE.

Steve says LET ME JUMP IF CAN I WE
HAVE A BIN M AND HALF LEFT I
WANT TO GIVE TO MINISTER.
SHED ONTARIO HISTORY
HERE FROM TIME TO TIME AND I
NOTE IN 1934, A BRAND NEW
CONSERVATIVE PREMIER BY THE
NAME GEORGE HENRY WHO
TAOUBSD FINANCE MINISTER ARE
YOU GETTING PARALLELS HERE
FOUND HIMSELF EMBROILED
CRISIS ABOUT HYDRO.
AND ENDED UP LOSING THE
ELECTION TO LIBERALS IN
MASSIVE FASHION.
WENT TO POLLS AND LOST.
THE PARALLELS TODAY ARE
FASCINATING AND ANYBODY YOU
TALK TO SAYS HYDRO IS ONE OF
THOSE ISSUES THAT CAME
GOVERNMENT.
HOW DO YOU KWROEPB SURE THAT
HISTORY DOES NOT REPEAT?

John Baird says WELL WE RESPOND TO
CHALLENGE WE COULD NOT
CONTINUE GO ON PILING UP
DEBT TO TUNE OF 38 BILLION DOLLARS.
ADDING 10,000 DOLLARS TO
EVERY FAMILY IN ONTARIO.
WE HAVE COURAGE TACKLE THE
PROBLEM THAT NO OTHER
GOVERNMENT WOULD DO.
THERE HAS BEEN SOME BUMPS
ALONG THE ROAD.
ERNIE EVES HAS SAID HE WANTS
SOME ACTION.
FOR THE BILLS KITCHEN TABLE
AND FOR THE CONCERN WHETHER
FARMER SMALL BUSINESS
OPERATOR OTHER FAMILY HAVE
FOR THEIR FUTURE.

Steve says DO YOU AGREE IF
YOU SCREW THIS YOU LOSS NEXT
ELECTION.

John Baird says AGREE WE WILL COME UP
WITH A PLAN ON MOW TKAFPLT.

Ruth says IT ALL DEPEND UPON YOU.

John Baird says IT IS TEAM EFFORT.

Mac says IT IS ON YOUR SHOULDERS.

Steve says IT IS TEAM EFFORT.
JOHN Baird MINISTER
OF ENERGY THANK YOU FOR
BEING WITH US ON TVO TODAY.
RUTH GRIER O'MAHONY AS
ALWAYS DELIGHT TO SEE YOU
BOTH.
THAT'S FOURTH READ FOR THIS
WEEK.
I AM STEVE PAIKIN UNTIL NEXT
SUNDAY.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #288