Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 283 | Oct 06, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a gavel banging against a desk, and MPPs voting in the Legislature.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON “4TH READING,”
HEAR YE.
IS THE GOVERNMENT FINALLY
FIXING LEGAL AID OR ORGANIZING
ONTARIO JUSTICE?

Steve, Ruth, Richard, and another panelist sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a green coat over a dark green polo shirt.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair.
Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY
AFTERNOON.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
AND YOU'RE WATCHING “4TH READING.”
ERNIE EVES LOST HIS FOURTH MINISTER.
CAM JACKSON RESIGNED AS
TOURISM MINISTER AFTER
QUESTIONS WERE RAISED ABOUT
THE APPROPRIATENESS OF SOME OF
HIS EXPENDITURES.
AND PLUS NEW DEVELOPMENTS ON
POSSIBLE SLOT MACHINES IN
DURHAM REGIONS.
IT IS ONE OF THOSE FOLLOW THE
MONEY STORY.
ALL UP NEXT ON “BACKROOM, 411.”

(music plays)
A clip captioned “Backroom 411” shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says ROBERT, WHY DID CAM
JACKSON RESIGN?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."
Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.
He’s wearing a beige suit, blue shirt, and striped red and black tie.

He says HE DIDN'T.
HE WAS FORCED OUT.
TAKEN TO THE WOODSHED, BIG
MISTAKE, STEVE.
I'M SURPRISED BY POLITICIANS
WHO THINK THEY WILL GET AWAY
WITH THIS STUFF.
ESPECIALLY AFTER THE BOSS, THE
PREMIER, SAID AFTER CHRIS

Steve says WHAT IMPRESSION DO
YOU THINK IT LEFT THE PUBLIC WITH?

Robert says I THINK IT IS TWO FOLD.
AGAIN, THE HAND IN THE COOKIE
JAR.
PUBLIC PERCEPTION.
IN THE LARGER PICTURE, WHEN
YOU TAKE THIS, COUPLED WELL
THE SPENDING ON THE TORIY
LEADERSHIP RACE.
IT PAINTS THEM AS BEING BIG
SPENDERS.
IT IS HARD TO SAY THE LIBERALS
YOU'RE BIG SPENDERS.
LOOK WHAT CAM JACKSON WAS
SPENDING ON RESTAURANT MEALS
AND HOTELS AND Gzjjñ WHAT I
SPENT TO WIN.
SO IT IS A LONG-TERM PROBLEM.
I DON'T THINK IT WILL GO AWAY
OVERNIGHT.
Mr. EVES MOVED TO TRY TO ERASE
THE PROBLEM BY GETTING RID OF
JACKSON.
THERE'S STILL A PERCEPTION.

Steve says Mr. JACKSON WASN'T
THE ONLY MINISTER.
STOCKWELL, JIM HUE.
THESE SURVIVED, CAM CAL,
DIDN'T, HOW COME?

Robert says FIRST JACKSON IS NOT A
POPULAR M.P.P.
EVEN WITH HIS OWN PARTY.
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
NO ONE IS WALKING AROUND WITH
A BLACK ARM BAND WITH HIS
DEMISE OVER CAB FWHET.
I'M TOLD THERE'S SOME GLEE IN
SOME QUARTERS.
SINCE THE PREMIER HAD WARNED
CABINET AFTER STOCKWELL, DON'T
LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN, BECAUSE
IT COULD STICK.
THE FACT HAS HE WAS CAUGHT
MEANT HE HAD TO GO.

Steve says LAST WORD?

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."
Susanna is in her forties, with short blond hair in a
Bob and bangs. She’s wearing a pink tailored suit.

She says HE HAD VERY FEW ALLIED
AROUND THE AN NET TABLE AND
THE CAUCUS.
ON TOP OF THAT, I WAS TOLD IT
HAVE BEEN MISSPENT.
THEY'RE WORRIED THEY RAN ON
THE SLOGAN “WE ARE THE PEOPLE
THAT CAME TO FIX GOVERNMENT.”
THEY'RE WORRIED THEY WILL BE
PERCEIVED THEY ARE THE GUYS
THAT CAME TO PUT THE FIX IN
GOVERNMENT.

Steve says YOU DON'T WANT THAT.
THAT WAS THE BIG STORY OF THE WEEK.
THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER STORY,
WHICH WE HAVE NEW INFORMATION,
WHICH WE WANT TO BRING TO THE
ATTENTION OF THE VIEWERS TODAY.
THIS IS A STORY ABOUT PEEKOFF
DOWNS.
THE RACE TRACKS THAT WANTS O
GET SLOT MACHINES EAST OF THE
DURHAM REGION.
IT STARTS WITH CONCERNS, ABOUT
WHAT MONEY BUYS YOU IN
POLITICS.
SUSANNAH.
THE OWNER GAVE THE MONEY TO
TWO LEADERSHIP CANDIDATES.
WHO DID HE GIVE TO?

Susanna says 80,000 THERE ARE TO
Mr. FLAHERTY, AND LATER GAVE
10,000 TO Mr. EVES.

Steve says THE THINKING BEHIND
THE DONATIONS WAS?

Susanna says IT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU WERE
TALKING TO.
Mr. FLAHERTY'S CRITICS BELIEVE
HE WAS TRYING TO BUY ACCESS TO
GETTING -- LARGE NUMBER OF
SLOT MACHINES AT A RACE TRACK,
OUT THERE.

Steve says OF COURSE, HE THINKS
HE WAS SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY
AND THE PARTY.
AND SO FORTH.
OKAY.
YOU HAVE SOME CABINET
DOCUMENTS.
THESE ARE CONFIDENTIAL CABINET
DOCUMENTS IN YOUR POSSESSION,
WHICH WE WILL SHOW TO OUR
VIEWERS.
WHAT DO THE DOCUMENTS SAY
THAT'S IMPORTANT IN ADVANCING
THE STORY?

Susanna says THESE documents...
THEY ARE TWO.
ONE IS FROM THIS MARCH.
ONE IS FROM LAST DECEMBER.
MAYBE WE COULD BRING THEM UP
AND TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THEY
SAY.
ACTUALLY.

Steve says THESE ARE
CONFIDENTIAL CABINET DOCUMENTS,
WHEN MIKE HARRIS WAS STILL PREMIER.

A picture of a document pops up and a quote reads “Cabinet minutes December 12, 2001. Be directed to proceed immediately to complete the business case for slots at Picov Downs.”

Susanna says THE SUPPORTERS SAY THEY
CLEARLY SHOW APPROVAL FORWARD
FOR PICOV DOWNS.
THEY AGREED THE ONTARIO
LOTTERY AND GAMING CORPORATION
PRO IMMEDIATELY FOR PICOV DOWNS.

The slate adds “New slot machine facilities at Picov Downs be implemented.”

Steve says IT LOOKS THE CABINET
IS ADVANCING THE PICOV DOWNS
SITUATION FOR THE SLOT
MACHINES.
RIGHT?

Susanna says THAT IS WHAT Mr. FLAHERTY'S
SUPPORTEPs AND Mr. PICOV'S
SUPPORTERS ARE SAYING.

Steve says NEW ALLEGATIONS
COMING OUT TODAY, ABOUT
POTENTIALLY THE INFLUENCE OF
MONEY ON DECISION MAKING
AND -- WHAT WAS GOING ON IN
THOSE CABINET MEETINGS.
TALK TO US ABOUT THAT.

Susanna says SENIOR SOURCES HAVE TOLD ME
Mr. HUDAK WAS THE MINISTER IN
CHARGE OF THE FILE.
HE WAS A SUPPORTEDDER OF
Mr. FLAHERTY.
HE SENT OUT A LETTER IN APRIL
SAYING THAT...

Steve says FULL STEAM AHEAD.

Susanna says THEY WERE KBHICHBING AHEAD
WITH APPROVAL UP TO 800 SLOTS.
I'M TOLD THAT CONTRARY TO
USUAL POLICY, THAT HE SENT OUT
THOSE LETTERS OVER THE
DISAPPROVAL OF HIS OWN DEPUTY
MINISTER, AND THE HEAD OF THE
LOTTERY GAMING COMMISSION.

Steve says LET ME GET THIS
STRAIGHT.
THE DEPTH MINISTER AND THE
HEAD OF THE GAMING COMMISSION.
TWO PEOPLE YOU NORMALLY WANT
ON YOUR SIDE, SIGNING ON
WHATEVER IS GOING THROUGH THE
SYSTEM.
THEY DIDN'T SIGN OFF.

Susanna says THAT'S CORRECT.

Steve says IS IT NORMAL FOR
Mr. BARBOURO TO SIGN OFF?

Susanna says I'M TOLD NORMALLY THE
LETTER IS SENT OUT BY THE
O.L.G.C. HEAD AND THE ONTARIO
RACING COMMISSION.
I DID CONTACT Mr. BARBOURO.
HE DID NOT WANT TO SPEAK
PUBLICALLY.
SOURCES TELL ME HE WAS NOT
GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO THE
LETTER OR SIGN IT.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, HIS
OPPOSITION WAS THAT THE -- A
COMPLETE BUSINESS CASE HAD NOT
BEEN PRESENTED BY Mr. PICOV.

Steve says HE IS THE ONE GUY
FEW HAVE SPOKE TO ABOUT THIS
WHAT DID HE SAY.

Susanna says HE SAID HE DID SUBMIT A
FULL BUSINESS CASE AS FAR BACK
AS LAST FALL.
IT WAS HUNDREDS OF PAGES LONG.
DONE BY PRICE WATERHOUSE.
HE SEES NO REASON
WHY -- WHY -- YOU KNOW HE[0@3
SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SUPPORTED.

Steve says HE THINKS HE HAS
GONE THROUGH THE PROBLEM
PROPPER CHANNELS.
AS SOON AS Mr. EVES BECAME
PREMIER, HE HALTED THIS
PROCESS.
WHAT WAS THE THING ERNIE EVES
SAID TO HIS CABINET MINISTERS
WHEN HE PULLED THE PLUG OR
SLOWED IT DOWN?

Susanna says APPARENTLY AL ALTHOUGH
Mr. FLAHERTY WAS NOT IN THE
ROOM.
HE SHOWED DISAPPROVAL WITH
Mr. FLAHERTY Mr. HUDAK AND
says I HAVE BEEN CALLED A LOT
OF THING IN MY TIME, BUT I AM
NOT AN “FING CROOK.”

Steve says HE SAID, “F-NG”?

Susanna says IT ENDS IN ING IT LEAVES
EVERYONE WONDERING WHETHER IT
BUYS INFLUENCE.
THAT 10,000, HE GAVE TO
Mr. EVES, THEY CAME AFTER HIM
FOR THAT MONEY.
IT WAS ACTUALLY A FUND RAIDSER
CONNECTED WITH JANET ECKERD'S.
SHE WAS SUPPORTING EVES.
NAME KEVIN ASH WHO KALE TO HIM
FOR A DONATIONS.
BECAUSE HE LIKED ECKERD'S AND
WANTED A PREMIER.
HE ORIGINALLY SUPPORTED
Mr. FLAHERTY, BECAUSE HE
WANTED A PREMIER FROM DURHAM
BECAUSE OF HIS RESPECT FOR
Ms. ECKERD'S THEY DONATED THE
MONEY TO EVES.

Steve says SUM IT UP.
HOW DOES LOOK?

j THE AROMA OF STORIES LIKE
THIS, STEVE, VERY DANGEROUS
FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
THE AROMA OF THE SPENDING BY
Mr. JACKSON AND STOCKWELL AND
THE PREMIER'S SPENDING
PRACTICES WERE QUESTIONED IN
THE HOUSE.
HE HAS TO DEAL WITH THAT.
WHEN YOU PUT IT TOGETHER.
THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T DEFEAT
ICE ON ONE ISSUE, IT IS A
BUNCH OF THING.
Mr. EVES HAS TO DEAL WITH THIS
AND GET RID OF IT.

Steve says THANKS FOR THE “411
FROM THE BACK ROOM” TONIGHT.
CONTINUING, IF YOU
GET INTO TROUBLE WITH THE LAW
IN THIS PROVE, YOU GOT TO GET
YOURSELF A LAWYER.
FOR 40 YEARS, POOR PEOPLE WENT
TO THE LEGAL AID SYSTEM THEM.
WOULD HIRE THE LAWYER OF THEIR
CHOICE, SUBJECT TO A BILLING
CAP, AND THE PUBLIC PICOVED UP
THE TAB.
THE ONTARIO GENERAL HAS
INTRODUCED SWEEPING CHANGES
WE'LL TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT
IN A MINUTE.
FIRST OF ALL THE BACKGROUND.

A clip plays in which the Attorney General makes an official announcement.
A caption reads “David Young. Ontario Attorney General.”
Young is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.

He says THIS LEGISLATION, IF PASSED
WOULD ALLOW LEGAL AID ONTARIO
TO HIRE MORE SALARIED LAWYERS
TO PROVIDE LEGAL AIDED SERVICES.

Steve says UNDER THE NEW FAN.
LEGAL DEFENDERS WOULD REPLACE
PRIVATE LAWYERS.
PREVIOUSLY THEY PAID A FEE,
CALLED A TARRIVE FOR THEIR
SERVICES LAWYERS SAY, THAT
RATE, THE TARRIVE, UNCHANGED
SINCE 1987, IS FAR TOO LOW.
IN RESPONSE, MANY PRIVATE
LAWYERS HAVE BEEN ASKING
BETWEEN 120, TO 350 dollars AN HOUR
FOR THESE CASES UNDER THE
PROPOSED LEGISLATION THE NEW
DEFENDERS COULD BILL NO MORE
THAN 88 dollars AN HOUR FOR SERVICES
LAWYERS SAY THIS ISN'T
REALISTIC.

The caption changes to "Ralph Steinberg. Criminal Lawyers Association."
Ralph is in his fifties, clean-shaven and bald.

He says THE LEGAL AID HAS WEENED
THROUGH BUSINESS STUDIES AND
ANALYSES THAT THE 1987 RATES
WERE SO FAR BEHIND THAT --
THAT LAWYERS, EVEN THOUGH THEY
WANTED TO DO THE WORK, COULD
NO LONGER AFFORD TO.
AND LEGAL AID NOTED THAT LESS
AND LESS YOUNG LAWYERS ARE
COMING INTO THE AREAS OF LAW
THAT LEGAL AID SERVES, WHICH
CAUSES FEARS FOR THE FUTURE.

Steve says OPPOSITION CRITICS
HAVE COME OUT STRONG AGAINST
THE PROPOSAL.

The caption changes to "Michael Bryant. Liberal Attorney General Critic."
Michael is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.

He says MY CONCERN IS THE BILL IS
REALLY A BLANK CHECK TO LET
THE CAB THET BUY REGULATION
AND AMERICANIZE OUR SYSTEM OF
LEGAL ASSISTANCE WE SHOULDN'T
END UP WITH A PLEA BARGAIN
FACTORY LIKE SOUTH OF THE BORDER.
WE WOULD BE BETTER OFF WORKING
WITH ALL THE PARTIES TO TRY TO
COME UP WITH A WAY TO PROVIDE
AFFORDABLE LEGAL ASSISTANCE.

The caption changes to "Peter Kormos. NDP Attorney General Critic."
Peter is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair and glasses.

He says RATHER THAN RESPONDING TO
THE PROBLEM.
YOUNG PREFERS TO TAKE CHEAP
SHOTS TO LAWYERS, TO EXPLOIT
THE PREVAILING MYTHOLOGY, THE
MAJORITY OF WOMEN AND MEN IN
CITIES ACROSS THE PROVINCE,
WORK HARD TO MAINTAIN THE
INTEGRITY OF THE SYSTEM.

Steve says LATE LE HE SAYS
PRIVATE LAWYERS HAVE HELD THE
SYSTEM HOSTAGE BY DISRUPTING
COURT PROCEEDINGS AND
DEMANDING CASH RETAINERS FROM
LOW INCOME CLIENTS.

In his announcement, David says IN TOO MANY CASES TACTICS
HAVE LEAD TO VULNERABLE PEOPLE
BEING DENIED ACCESS TO
JUSTICE.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
THE LEGAL AID SYSTEM DOES NOT
EXIST FOR THE BENEFIT OF
LAWYERS.
IT EXISTS TO PROTECT THE
RIGHTS OF THOSE IN NEED.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says JOINING US NOW FOR A
DISCUSSION WITHOUT PLEDGE, OF
COURSE, ABOUT LAWYERS, LEGAL
AID AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.
ONTARIO ATTORNEY GENERAL,
DAVID YOUNG, M.P.P. FOR
WILLOWDALE.

Steve says WELCOME.

g says NICE TO BE BACK.
STEVE AND YOU HERE'S A LAWYER
FROM FRAZIER NORMAN AND
BORELIS RICHARD MANNING.
RUTH GRIER, AND THIS WEEK
BRIAN PATTERSON THE ORGANIZER
AT P.C. PARTY HEADQUARTERS.

Brian is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short wavy gray hair and glasses.

Steve says WHAT'S WRONG WITH
THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT'S
REQUIRING YOU TO MAKE THESE
CHANGES.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "David Young. Ontario Attorney General."

David says THE SYSTEM ISN'T
WORKING ALL THAT WELL, THERE
SIMPLY ARE NO LOUNGZ PREPARED
TO ACCEPT CERTIFICATES THERE
ARE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF
INDIVIDUALS WHO CAN'T HAVE
REPRESENTATION.

Steve says WHY NOT RAISE THE
TARRIVE SO MORE WOULD TAKE ON
CASES 5 percent.

David says WE DID.
5 percent FOR LAWYERS WHO TAKE ON
CERTIFICATES.
23 percent FOR DUTY COUNCIL.
FIRST RAISE IN 15 YEARS.
IT BRINGS LAWYERS IN ONTARIO,
PARTICULARLY AT THE HIGH-END,
TO THE POINT WHERE ARE THEY
ARE THE HIGHEST PAID IN THE
COUNTRY.

Steve says DO YOU WANT TO
EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE CERTIFICATE AND TAKING A
CASE ON TARRIVE WITHOUT MAKING
OUR EYES GAYS OVER.
I AM CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR
RATINGS AS WELL. I'LL TRY.
DAVID.

David says AN INDIVIDUAL WHO
DOESN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO
AFFORD A LAWYER GET A
CERTIFICATE FROM LEGAL AID
ONTARIO.
THEY TAKE THAT CERTIFICATE TO
A LAWYER, WHOSE PREPARED TO
RAE
ACCEPT IT FOR THE tariff AS HIGH AS 88 dollars AN HOUR.

Steve says YOU HEARD MICHAEL
BRYANT SAYS IT IS THE CREATION
OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDER WE HAVE
SEEN THE AMERICAN COP SHOWS,
WHERE THIS SYSTEM IS IN PLACE.
IS IT NOT THE AMERICANIZING OF
OUR ONTARIO JUSTICE SYSTEM
WORKING FOR 40 YEARS?

David says MORE ACCURATE
COMPARISON IS TO PLACES LIKE
MANITOBA AND QUESTION QUEBEC,
WHICH HAVE THE BALANCED SYSTEM,ç
I HOPE WILL EXIST IN ONTARIO,
IF THIS LEGISLATION PASSES.
I SHOULD TELL YOU EVERY OTHER
PROVINCE IN THIS COUNTRY HAS A
COMPONENT OF THEIR LEGAL AID
SYSTEM PROVIDED BY STAFF LAWYERS.
YOU CALL THEY PUBLIC
DEPENDERS.
STAFF LAWYERS IS THE CANADIAN
TERM.

STEVE says IF YOU OR ARE I OR
ANYONE ELSE AT THE TABLE HAS
THE PROBLEM WITH THE LAW.
WE CAN GO GET THE LAWYER OF
OUR CHOICE TO RESPECT US.
ARE YOU NOT, WITH THIS NEW
SYSTEM, REMOVING FROM POOR PEM,
THE RIGHT FOR THEM TO DO THE
SAME THING?

David says LET'S REMEMBER,
FIRST OF ALL, IN CERTAIN PARTS
OF THE PROVINCE TODAY, YOU
CAN'T GO OUT AND GET A LAWYER,
IF YOU HAVE QUALIFIED FOR
LEGAL AID.
THERE ARE NO LAWYERS PREPARED
TO TAKE THIS.
I GUESS THE OTHER THING I WANT
TO SAY IS THERE HAVE BEEN A
NUMBER OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO
WHETHER OR NOT A PUBLIC
DEFENDER SYSTEM WORKS AS WELL
AS THE -- AS THE PRIVATE BAR,
PROVIDING ALL OF THOSE
SERVICES.
IN FACT ONE STUDY WAS AUTHORED
BY PATRICK MONHAND, WHO WAS
THE PREMIER PETERSON ONE OF
HIS LEGAL ADVISOR.
THE PROFESSOR ZEEMAN, ALLAN
YOUNG, PROFESSOR HAS AUTHORED
ANOTHER.
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS
OFFERED ANOTHER.
ALL OF THOSE STUD CRIES
INDICATE THAT THE STAFF SYSTEM
PROVIDES PROVIDE GOOD
RESPECTATION, AS GOOD OR
BETTER THAN EXISTED.

Steve says ARE SO MANY CRIMINAL
LAWYERS OPPOSED TO THIS?

David says CRIMINAL LAWYERS ARE
SEEKING MORE MONEY.
THAT'S WHAT -- THAT'S WHAT I
PRESUME IS MOTIVATING THEM TO
BUY CAUGHT.
I SHOULD TELL YOU THAT SOME OF
THE TACTICS EMPLOYED ARE OF
GREAT CONCERN TO ME.
I HAVE A LETTER IN MY HAND
FROM THE CRIMINAL LAWYERS
ASSOCIATION, AUTHORED THAT
ENCOURAGES ALL OF THE MEMBERS
OF THAT ORGANIZATION TO DO AS
FOLLOWS.
IT SAYS THE PURPOSE OF THE
STRIKE IS TO SHUT DOWN THE
COURTS ON THE WEEKS INDICATED
IT IS VITAL THE STRIKE DAYS
WHAT IT MEANS, THEY ARE
TRYING TO SHUTDOWN COURTS.
WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE RELATED
TO A LEGAL AID CASE OR NOT.
YOU'VE NOT GOING TO HAVE YOUR
DAY IN COURT.
IT MEANS THE VICTIMS AREN'T
GOING TO HAVE THE JUSTICE
CARRIED OUT ON THE DAY THEYED.

Steve says ANOTHER
INTERPRETATION, IT IS DESIGNED
TO GET YOUR ATTENTION.
ZAFD LAWYERS ARE IN
DIFFERENT POSITION.
THEY'RE PART OF THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT AND THEY HAVE SOMEç
OBLIGATIONS STEVE YOU'RE A
LAWYER, NOT A CRIMINAL LAWYER,
BUT A LAWYER WITH SOME
UNDERSTANDING WHAT DO YOU
THINK ABOUT WHAT HE'S TRYING
TO DO?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says I'M NOT A CRIMINAL LAWYER,
AND I DON'T DO LEGAL AID WORK
FOR NOW.
I HAVE FOR A LARGE PART OF MY
CAREER TAKEN LEGAL AID
CERTIFICATE PRACTICING REFUGEE
LAWS.
IT IS ALMOST ALWAYS FUNDED BY
CERTIFICATES, BECAUSE WE HAVE
IMMIGRANTS ENTERING THAT CAN'T
AFFORD TO PAY.
I KNOW ABOUT THAT.
AT THE TIME I LEFT DOING REF
GEE LAW, I LEFT FOR -- I LOVE,
IT WAS REWARDING I LEFT FOR
ONE REASON.
I WAS STARTING TO HAVE A
FAMILY AND COULD NO LONGER
AFFORD TO PRACTICE THAT I WAS
MAKING 20 THERE ARE AN HOUR,
BY THE TIME I PAID MY RENT IN
THE OFFICE AND FOR ADDITIVE
ASSISTANTS I WOULD NET 15 TO
20 dollars AN HOUR.
I WAS AT THE HIGHEST SCALE.
I WAS AN EXPERIENCED COUNCIL
AND DOING AS BEST AS ANYONE
COULD.
THESE DOING IT NOW ARE
EFFECTIVELY MAKING 20 dollars AN HOUR.
SOME SAY THAT'S NOT A BAD
WAGE.
IT IS NOT WHAT MOST PEOPLE
THINK LAWYERS MAKE.
THEY THINK WE'RE RICH.
WE HAVE TWO TIERED.
LEGAL SYSTEM IN THIS PROVE.
PEM WHO CAN AFFORD TO HIRE THE
FIRM WHERE I WORK NOW, ARE
CORPORATIONS WITH LOTS OF
MONEY.
AND VIDZ, NO MATTER
HOW -- HOW -- AND INDIVIDUALS,
IN MOST CASES CANNOT AFFORD TO
HIRE LAWYERS AND THOSE WITHOUT
INCOME GO TO LEGAL AID.

Steve says RUTH WHAT'S YOUR TICK.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I WILL FINISH WHERE I THINK
RICHARD WAS GOING.
THE BASIC PROBLEM IS THERE
ISN'T ENOUGH MONEY FOR LEGAL
AID LAWYERS AS THEY CURRENTLY
EXIST.
I DON'T HAVE AN OX IN
PRINCIPALLE, THERE IS PROBLEM
WITH THE LEGISLATION, AND THE
WAY IT IS IMPLEMENTED THE
PRINCIPALLE DOESN'T BOTHER ME.
3
SNBLTS THEIR PAID, YOU WON'T
HAVE ADEQUATE RESPECTATION.
THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT
HASN'T BEEN PREPARED TO PUT IN
THE BOTTOM TEAR OF THE JUSTICE
SYSTEM, JUSTICE FOR PEOPLE WHO
CAN'T AFFORD THEIR OWN
LAWYERS.
SUFFICIENT MONEY TO ASSURE...

David says RUTH KNOWS HOW HARD
IT IS TO DO THAT, BECAUSE SHE
WAS'S MEMBER OF THE GOVERNMENT
FOR FIVE YEARS AND YOU GAVE
THEM NO INCREASES.
NOT A PENNY.

Ruth says WE WOULD HAVE TRIED
TO NEGOTIATE, BUT YOU HAVE NOT
BEEN ABLE TO DO.

David says I'VE BEEN DOING.
NOT A PENNY, NICKEL OR TIME
AND THE SOCIAL CONTRACT SOME
WOULD ARGUE WENT THE OTHER
WAY.
IT IS HARD...

Ruth says EVERYONE WAS
TAKING -- EVERYONE WAS
TIGHTENING THEIR BELT.

Richard says EVERYONE MAKES
JOKES ABOUT LAWYERS.
I GET THEM EVERY DAY.
SOME ARE FUNNY.
SOME AREN'T.
LEGAL AID LAWYERS HAVEN'T HAD
A RAISE SINCE 1987.
CAN I FINISH -- SO, THE
HAS BEEN NEGOTIATING.
MINISTER IS RIGHT TO SAY HET-
HE ABSOLUTELY HAS BEEN DOING
THAT.
ON THE OTHER HAND, HE GAVE
THEM ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATION,
IF THEY DIDN'T AGREE TO
WHATEVER THEY WERE OFFERING HE
WOULD WHACK THEM OVER THE HEAD
CHANGING THE NATURE OF THE
SYSTEM AND THE COMPENSATION.

Steve says CAN YOU TALK ABOUT
THE POLITICS OF THIS.
DOES IT NOT LOOK LIKE AN ANGRY
MINISTER BACKING THE HEADS OF
LAWYERS, NAMELY IN ONTARIO,
LIKE JOURNALIST THERE, IS NOT
A GREAT DEAL OF SIMPLE PATHY.

The caption changes to "Brian Patterson. Ontario PC Organizer."

Brian says I THINK IT HAS BEEN GOING
ON FOR A LONG TIME
THERE'S -- TO CLAIM THERE'S NO
NEGOTIATION, I DON'T THINK IS
FAIR.
IT HAS AGAIN GOING FOR MY
KNOWLEDGE IN THE GOVERNMENT,
FOR THE TIME WE HAVE BEEN THE
GOVERNMENT.
ONE SIDE PUTS FORWARD THE
CASE.
THE MINISTRY, AND THE
MINISTERO LOOK AT THE ISSUES
AND THEY COME UP WITH A
RESOLUTION, WHICH IS THIS
PIECE OF LEGISLATION.
TO SAYBUt SNUCK UP AND SMACKED
THEM ON THE HEAD IS A LITTLE
UNFEAR.

David says LET'S TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS.
AS THESE NEGOTIATIONS ARE
DISCUSSIONS HAVE BEEN UNDER
WAY.
WE'RE PREPARED, TO CONT THEM,
IF THE LAWYERS GO BACK TO
WORK.
INNOCENT INDIVIDUALS, PEOPLE
WHO WANTED AN OPPORTUNITY HAVE
THEIR DAY IN COURT HAVE NOT
BEEN ABLE TO DO SO.
AS ATTORNEY GENERAL I CANNOT
ALLOW THAT TO CONTINUE.
IT IS GOOD WITH THAT PEOPLE
WANT TO SIT AROUND THE TABLE
AND TALK ABOUT THINGS, BUT I
HAVE TO MAKE SURE THE COURTS
CONTINUE TO FUNCTION.

Richard says WHAT HAVE YOU
INSTRUCTED YOUR CROWN
ATTORNEYS TO DO, IN CASES
WHERE LAWYERS HAVE REFUSED TO
TAKE LEGAL AID CERTIFICATES
AND THEREFORE, THOSE WHO
SHOULD BE RESPECTED GO
UNRESPECTED?

David says HERE'S WHAT'S
IMPORTANT IN THAT.
JUDGES ARE BEING PLACED IN AN
AWKWARD POSITION.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED FRANKLY IT
IS NUMBERATED IN THIS LETTER...

David says ONE OF MANY.
WHAT HAS HAPPENED THE LAWYERS
ASSOCIATIONS HAVE TOLD THEIR
MEMBERS AND GIVEN COMMUNITIES
DON'T ACCEPT CERTIFICATES, GO
TO COURT.
TELL THE JUDGE THERE IS NO ONE
IN THE COMMUNITY TO DO THIS
WORK SPECIAL DEMAND A GREATER
AMOUNT OF MONEY.

Steve says ONE JUDGE AGREED
WITH THAT.

David says QUITE SO.
WELL, NO.
O THE JUDGE WHAT THE JUDGES
ARE DOING THEY SAY WE WILL
HAVE TO STAY THE PROCEEDING
GROUNDS AND LEGAL THE PEOPLE
ACBESED OF SERIOUS CRIMES GO
FREE OR I'M GOING TO
ORDER -- I'M GOING TO ORDER A
45 percent RAISE.
WELL THAT'S AN AWFUL POSITION
TO PUT JUDGES IN.

Richard says ANSWER MY QUESTION.

[Mixed voices]

David says IN THECA CASE.

Ruth says DON'T GET INTO THAT.

Steve says LET HIM FINISH HIS
LINE OF QUESTIONING.

Richard says IN CASES WHERE JUDGES HAVE
STAYED THE PROCEEDING WHAT
HAVE YOU INSTRUCTED YOUR CROWN
TO ARGUE?

David says WHAT WE HAVE
SAID -- I'M TELLING YOU.
THAT THE LAWYERS SHOULD NOT
GET AN INFLATED RATE.
IN THE GENERAL REFUSES TO
AGREE WITH US.
WE SAY, WE WILL CONSENT, WE
RESERVE OUR RIGHTS FOR APPEAL
PURPOSES AND CONSENT TO THE
INFLATED RATE FOR THE PURPOSES
OF THE TRIAL.
WE CAN'T LET PEOPLE ACCUSED OF
SERIOUS CRIMES GO FREE.

Richard says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THEY
GO AHEAD WITHOUT RESPECTATION
THOSE PEOPLE?

David says THE JUDGE SHOULD SAY
YOU SHOULD RESPECT THAT
INDIVIDUAL FOR THAT AMOUNT OR
FIND SOMEONE ELSE IN SOME
COMMUNITIES WE HAVE ALTERNATE
LAWYERS.
SOME LAWYERS IN THE COMMUNITY
ENCOURAGE THEM NOT TO TAKE THE
CASE.

Brian says I THINK THE VIEWERS SHOULD
TAPE THE SHOW KEEP IT FOR
RECORD.
IT IS THE LIBERAL AND THE
N.D.P. ARGUING FOR POOR
LAWYERS TO MAKE MORE MONEY ON
THE SYSTEM.
I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY THAT.
THERE'S LOTS OF DECISIONS THE
GOVERNMENT HAS TO MAKE ON
SPENDING ISSUES.
WE'RE CHOOSING A SYSTEM WHERE
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THINKS IT
WILL BE MORE FAIR AND
EQUITABLE TO. SAY THIS IS
WHERE WE NEED TO SPEND THE
MONEY.
HOWARD HAMPTON WAS TALKING
ABOUT RAISING MINIMUM WAGE.
AND WHY HAVEN'T WE DONE THAT.
AND DALTON McGUINTY IS SAYING
THERE'S MORE MONEY FOR THIS.

Ruth says THAT'S NOBLE.
I KNOW ABOUT THE HEALTHCARE
SYSTEM AND YOU HAVEN'T TAKEN
THAT APPROACH WITHIN DOCTORS
AND THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
IT IS BACK TO -- MY WORRY.
I'M NOT AMOSED TO PUBLIC
DEFENDERS -- YOUR PILOT
PROJECTS.
PROVINCE.
THERE ARE CLINICS WORKING.
THE POINT OF -- THE POINT
OF NO MATTER HOW YOU ORGANIZE
THE SYSTEM, IF YOU'RE PAYING
THE LEAST YOU CAN GET AWAY
WITH LAWYERS.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

David says RUTH, WE'RE PAYING
MORE TO OUR LEGAL AID LAWYERS
AT THE TOP OF THE SCALE IN
THIS PROVINCE THAN ANY OTHER
PROVINCE.

Ruth says YOU'RE SAYING MORE
THAN ANY OTHER PROVE.

David says IT IS NEVER ENOUGH.

STEVE SAYS LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN.
LADY AND GENTLEMEN.

[Mixed voices]

Steve says IF I COULD...

Ruth says IT IS...

Steve says IF I CAN PLUCK A
QUESTION OUT OF WAS RUTH
BROUGHT UP.
I THINK IT IS A GOOD POINT.
YOU ARE NOT FORCING DOCTORS IN
THIS PROVINCE INTO FAMILY
HEALTH NETWORKS, ALTHOUGH THAT
IS THE STATED GOAL OF THE
GOVERNMENT REFORM.
YET, YOU ARE TELLING LAWYERS
IN THIS CASE, DO IT OUR WAY OR
ELSE...

David says THAT'S NOT WHAT -- I
COULD HAVE DONE THAT, I DIN.
I SAID I WILL SET UP A
PARALLEL SYSTEM.
SAME SITUATION THAT EXISTS IN
MOST OTHER PROVINCES IF LARS
CANNOT DO THIS WORK FOR THE
MONEY WE'RE PAYING THEM, MORE
THAN ANY OTHER PROVINCE IN THE
COUNTRY.

Richard says IN SOME CASES.

David says IN MOST INSTANCES IF
THEY CANNOT DO THE WORK AT
THAT MONEY I WILL NOT IMPOSE I
SET UL A PARALLEL SYSTEM TO
OPERATE.
I'M NOT GETTING RID OF
CERTIFICATE SYSTEM.
PRIVATE LAWYERS CAN STILL DO
WORK, IF THEY SO DESIRE.

Steve says YOU'RE GOVERNMENT
GOVERNMENT-- MAYBE YOU HAVE TO
HELP US.

David says THE ANSWER IS NO.

Steve says DID NOT THE LAW
SOCIETY IN CANADA UNDER TAKE
HOW MUCH LAWYERS SHOULD BE
PAID TO DO LEGAL AID CASES AND
DIDN'T LEGAL AID UNDERTAKE A
STUDY IN CONJUNCTION WITH THAT
ONE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE
RATES OUGHT TO BE.
YOU SEEM TO BE COMING IN,
CORRECT ME, IF I'M WRONG.
YOU SEE TO BE COMING IN BEFORE
THE RESULTS OF THE STUDIES OR
CARE, WE'RE GOING A DIFFERENT
Direction.

David says EACH SAID THE
LAWYERS SHOULD MAKE MORE MONEY
THAN THEY DO NOW.
GENERALLY THEY WANT TO SEE A
45 percent WAGE INCREASE.

Richard says -- THE LAWS SOCIETY-- THE
LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA IS
NOT A LAWYER'S ASSOCIATION
THAT LOBBIES FOR LAWYERS.
AS YOU KNOW AS A LAWYER.
IT IS THE GROUP THAT REGULATES
US, NUMBER ONE, NUMBER TWO,
YOU THE ATTORNEY GENERAL PAY
LAWYERS 125, 150, 175 dollars AN
HOUR FOR WORK FOR YOU, YET,
YOU WON'T PAY LAWYERS NEAR
THAT, WHO WORK FOR SOMEONE WHO
DOESN'T HAVE MONEY.
THAT'S OUR...

David says THERE'S COMPETITION
FOR LIMITED TAX DOLLARS.
LET'S BE CLEAR.
BECAUSE THERE IS A GROUP THAT
IS DOMINATED BY LAWYERS AND
WILL BE AS CLEAR AS WE CAN.
THAT IS DOMINATED BY LAWYERS.
I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR
THE LAW SOCIETY AND
PARTICULARLY FOR ITS TREASURE.
I THINK THEY ARE REASONABLE
PEOPLE.
I CAN'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING
THEY SAY.
THEY ARE NOT IN THE POSITION,
WHERE THIS TAXPAYER DOLLAR
SHOULD GO.
HERE TO HEALTHCARE.
THERE TO EDUCATION.
OR SOMEWHERE ELSE TO LAW AND
OR.
THAT'S WHAT A POLITICIAN IS
ELECTED TO DO.

Richard says STEVE WILL RESULTS WAY WAIT
FOR THE RESULTS OF THE STUD.
YOU PAY LAWYERS 200 dollars AN
HOUR TO DO WORK FOR YOU.

[Mixed voices]

Richard says STEVE MIGHT BE WRONG.
THE STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE.

David says YOU WON'T PAY.
DAVID I'VE GIVEN THEM THE
BIGGEST RAISE IN 15 YEARS.
A RAISE 5 percent MORE THAN THE
N.D.P. GAVE IN THE FIVE--YEAR
TERM.

Ruth says HOW WILL YOU FINE
LAWYERS, IF YOU DON'T PEA PAY THEM.

David says MY INDICATION THERE
WILL BE PLENTY OF LAWYERS.

Steve says WE HAVE 10 SECONDS.

David says THERE IS NOTHING
SECOND RATE ABOUT SERVING THE
PUBLIC INTEREST.

RUTH says I AGREE.
NOTHING.

David says
WRONG WITH INTRODUCING CHOICE
INTO THIS FIELD.

Steve says THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
DAVID YOUNG.
THANK YOU FOR TAKING OUR
QUESTIONS.
YOU THREE, THANKS VERY MUCH.
THAT'S “4TH READING” FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN, UNTIL NEXT Sunday.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 283