Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 275 | Jun 09, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON 4TH
READING: CORPORATE SHOCK.
HYDRO ONE'S BOARD RESIGNS
EN MASSE AS THE TORIES
PULL THE PLUG ON ITS MILLION
DOLLAR PAY PACKAGES.

Steve sits in the studio 4 guests.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit and a pale yellow shirt.

He says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
AND WELCOME TO 4TH
READING FOR THIS WEEK.
CHRIS STOCKWELL STUNNED THE
LEGISLATURE THIS WEEK
BY INTRODUCING LEGISLATION
AIMED AT FIRING
THE ENTIRE BOARD OF
HYDRO ONE.
WITHIN AN HOUR, THE BOARD
SAVED HIM THE TROUBLE
BY RESIGNING EN MASSE, CITING
GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.
AT ISSUE, PAY PACKAGES
OF UP TO 6 MILLION DOLLARS
FOR HYDRO ONE
EXECUTIVES;
COMPENSATION PACKAGES
THAT HAD BECOME A PUBLIC
RELATIONS NIGHTMARE FOR THE
NEW ERNIE EVES' GOVERNMENT.
QUESTIONS FLEW FAST AND
FURIOUS IN THE LEGISLATURE:
WHEN DID THE GOVERNMENT
LEARN ALL OF THE LUCRATIVE
DEALS WERE HAPPENING?
WATCH.

A clip from a session at the legislature rolls with the caption "Sean Conway. L.I.B Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke."

Sean is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight light brown hair. He wears glasses, a blue suit, white shirt and patterned burgundy tie.

He says YOU APPOINTED
THESE PEOPLE.
PRESUMABLY YOU GAVE THEM
SOME SPECIFIC DIRECTION
AS TO HOW YOU EXPECTED
YOUR COMPANY, HYDRO ONE,
TO BE OPERATED, AND
DIRECTION AROUND
THE ISSUES OF EXECUTIVE
COMPENSATION.
I'M CONCERNED, BECAUSE AS A
MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATURE,
I BELIEVE THAT I AM NOT
BEING TOLD THE TRUTH.
THIS IS A MULTI-MILLION
DOLLAR COVER-UP
AND I'M GOING TO FIND
OUT WHO'S LYING!

The speaker says I NEED THE MEMBER FROM
RENFREW TO LEAVE THE CHAMBER.
[applause]

The caption changes to "Chris Stockwell. Minister of Energy."

Chris is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and balding. He wears a black suit, white shirt and patterned blue tie.

He says EVERYBODY KNEW THE
COMPENSATION PACKAGE.
THERE WAS NO COVER-UP!
THERE'S NOTHING
TO HIDE!
SHE SPOKE ABOUT
THE MINUTES!
I HAVE THE MINUTES
WITH ME!
I OFFERED THE MINUTES
TO THE MEMBER.
HE DOESN'T WANT
THE TRUTH!
HE WANTS TO
GRANDSTAND!
HE WANTS THE
RHETORIC!
HE DOESN'T WANT
THE TRUTH!
HE CAN'T HANDLE
THE TRUTH!

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader."

Howard is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears a dark gray suit, blue shirt and blue tie.
He says THIS GOVERNMENT
KNEW ALL ALONG
ABOUT THE EXCESSIVE BLOATED
SALARIES AT BOTH OPG
AND HYDRO ONE AND THEY
DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.
AND NOW THAT IT'S IN THE
PUBLIC AND THE PUBLIC'S
PAYING ATTENTION, THEY'RE
DESPERATELY LOOKING
FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO BLAME.

Back in the studio, Steve says SO, ARE THE TORIES
SUCCESSFULLY CONTAINING THE
DAMAGE OVER PAY PACKAGES,
AND ARE WE GETTING ANY
CLOSER TO KNOWING THE
ULTIMATE FATE
OF THE HUGE HYDRO ONE?
HERE TO HELP US WITH
THOSE QUESTIONS,
JACK NICHOLSON -
NO, SORRY.
[laughing]
HE CAN'T HANDLE
THE TRUTH.
CHRIS STOCKWELL,
MINISTER OF ENERGY,
MPP FOR ETOBICOKE
CENTRE.
CHRIS, WELCOME
BACK TO TVO.

Chris says MY PLEASURE.

Steve says YOU KNOW OUR GANG
OVER HERE.

Chris says I SURE DO.

Steve says RICHARD MAHONEY
FROM BOREALIS CAPITAL
AND FRASER MILNER
CASGRAIN IN OTTAWA.

Richard says HERE'S JACK.

Steve says HERE'S
JACK, THAT'S RIGHT.
FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER, RUTH GRIER,
AND FROM NATIONAL
PUBLIC RELATIONS,
THERE'S MAC PENNEY.
WHY DID YOU WANT
TO FIRE THE BOARD?

Chris says THEY DIDN'T SEE THINGS THE
WAY WE SAW THEM WITH RESPECT
TO REPRESENTING SHAREHOLDERS
AND TAXPAYERS AND RATEPAYERS.
WE TRIED OUR BEST TO DEAL
WITH IT IN A VERY REASONABLE
WAY BEFORE MAY 17TH AND
THAT WAS TO DEAL
WITH THE BOARDS AND
COMPENSATION.
THEY WERE EXCESSIVE AND
THEY WERE OVERLY GENEROUS.
THEN ON MAY 17TH, THEY
WENT AHEAD AND CHANGED
THE ENTIRE PAY
STRUCTURE, PAY PACKAGE.
THEY DIDN'T TELL US.
THEY DIDN'T TELL
US BEFOREHAND.
THEY DIDN'T
TELL US AFTER.
I GOT INFORMED BY
THE MEDIA AND I GUESS
THAT'S THE STRAW THAT
BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.
WE DECIDED THAT THEY
OBVIOUSLY - NOT ONLY DID
THEY NOT SEE THINGS
THE WAY WE SEE IT,
BUT THEY'RE JUST TELLING US
TO GET STUFFED AND YOU DON'T
TELL SHAREHOLDERS TO GET STUFFED
WITHOUT SOME REPERCUSSIONS.

Steve says PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE'S
ONLY ONE SHAREHOLDER
AND IT HAPPENS TO BE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.

Chris says WELL, PARTICULARLY,
YEAH.
I THINK THAT'S
PROBABLY FAIR,
AND MAYBE THESE PEOPLE WHO
ARE PRIVATE SECTOR PEOPLE
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE
MACHINATIONS OF A PUBLIC
COMPANY IN A WAY AND A
GOVERNMENT IN ANOTHER WAY.
BUT WE HAVE POWERS THAT
TYPICAL SHAREHOLDERS
DON'T HAVE AND WE
EXERCISED THEM.

Steve says WHAT GALLED YOU THE MOST
ABOUT WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT
THE COMPENSATION PACKAGES
THAT WERE ON THE TABLE?

Chris says WELL OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE
EXCESSIVE AND GENEROUS.
I MEAN, THAT WAS
TROUBLING.
WHAT GALLED ME THE MOST WAS
THAT SECRET BOARD MEETING
THAT THEY HELD AND THEN
RESTRUCTURED IT SO THESE
PAY PACKAGES WOULD
KICK IN REGARDLESS
OF HOW WE DISPOSED
OF HYDRO.
THAT WAS NOT
FAIR BALL.
THEY WEREN'T
PLAYING FAIR.
THEY MET SECRETLY.
THEY CHANGED THE STRUCTURE
THEY CHANGED IT ALL AND
THEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE
THE DECENCY TO INFORM ME.
I HAD TO FIND OUT THROUGH
THE MEDIA, AND FRANKLY,
I'M THE SHAREHOLDER.
I'M CONSIDERED THE
SHAREHOLDER AS MINISTER
OF ENERGY, AND YOU'D THINK
THAT OUT OF DECENCY,
IF THEY WERE
GOING TO DO THIS,
THE LEAST THEY COULD
DO IS TELL YOU YA,
LET ALONE NOT DO IT.

Steve says HAVE YOU HAD ANY ONE ON ONE
MEETINGS YET WITH EITHER
THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF
THE BOARD OR ANY OF
THE FORMER BOARD
MEMBERS?

Chris says NO.

Steve says HOW COME?

Chris says WHEN GOT THE JOB, I
WAS BEING BRIEFED BY
THE MINISTRY OF ENERGY AND
I WAS MOVING THROUGH,
AND WHEN I FOUND OUT ABOUT
THE COMPENSATION LEVELS AND
THE PREMIER AND I DISCUSSED
IT AND HE TOLD THEM IN THE
LEGISLATURE, AND HE ASKED ME
TO LOOK INTO THE PAY PACKAGES.
I REALLY DIDN'T HAVE
ANY OPPORTUNITIES.
AND LET'S BE CLEAR, IT
WASN'T LIKE THEY WERE
INTERESTED IN TAKING ANY
KIND OF INSTRUCTION
OR DIRECTION FROM ME.

Steve says NO, BUT WHEN YOU
INTRODUCED THE BILL
SAYING, DO THIS OR ELSE?

Chris says OH,
I TALK ON THE PHONE.
OH, I HAD TALKED ON THE
PHONE TO THE CHAIR,
AND THE CHAIR
BASICALLY SAID, WELL,
YOU'RE WRONG.
I DON'T AGREE.
THESE ARE FAIR PACKAGES
AND YOU'RE MAKING
THE BAD DECISION, AND I
THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
IT'S REGRETFUL
YOU'RE DOING THIS,
AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
THERE WASN'T ANY SENSE OF
AGREEMENT WITH OUR POSITION
OR EVEN ANY SENSE THAT THEY
WANTED TO EVEN DISCUSS
WHAT OUR OPINION WAS.
HE WAS VERY DISMISSIVE
ON THE PHONE.

Steve says LET ME JUST FOR A SECOND PUT
MYSELF - OR ANYBODY FOR
THAT MATTER - IN THE
POSITION OF ONE OF THE
BOARD MEMBERS AND PLAY THIS
THROUGH FOR YOU AND SEE
IF MAYBE THIS IS WHY THEY
WERE SO, IN YOUR VIEW,
UNCOOPERATIVE.
AT THE POINT WHEN YOU WERE
ASKING THEM TO SHAVE
THE COMPENSATION PACKAGES
BECAUSE, IN YOUR VIEW,
THEY WERE TOO EXCESSIVE, THE
LAW WHICH YOU INTRODUCED
HAD NOT YET BEEN
PASSED, AND THEREFORE,
MIGHT THEY HAVE
INFERRED THAT YOU WERE
ASKING THEM TO DO
SOMETHING ILLEGAL?
NAMELY, UNILATERALLY
ABROGATING SIGNED CONTRACTS,
AND THEY SAID, WE'RE
NOT GOING TO DO THAT,
'CAUSE WE'LL GET SUED.

Chris says NO, BASICALLY -

Steve says THAT'S NOT
POSSIBLE?

Chris says NO, IT ISN'T POSSIBLE,
BECAUSE WHAT WE ASKED THEM
WAS TO NEGOTIATE THE
PAY PACKAGES DOWN.
AND IF THEY CAME BACK TO
US AND SAID THE SENIOR
EXECUTIVES OF HYDRO ONE ARE
NOT PREPARED TO NEGOTIATE
ONE PENNY AWAY, THAT WOULD
HAVE BEEN ONE THING.
THAT'S NOT WHAT
HAPPENED.

Steve says RUTH, COME ON
IN HERE.
THIS THING HAS BECOME A
HUMONGOUS POLITICAL FOOTBALL.
HOW DO YOU THINK THE
GOVERNMENT'S HANDLED
IT THIS WEEK?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth is in her sixties, with short straight white hair. She wears glasses, a white top and a gray suede jacket.

She says WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO
REMEMBER THE GOVERNMENT
GOT ITSELF INTO
THIS MESS.
IT WAS THEIR DECISION AS TO
WHO TO PUT ON THE BOARD
AND WHO TO CREATE THIS
CORPORATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.
SO, I THINK HAVING DONE THAT
AND WHO KNOWS WHO KNEW WHAT,
I MEAN, MINISTER WILSON,
CHRIS'S - THIS MINISTER'S
PREDECESSOR SAYS THAT EVERY
TIME HE TALKED TO THE BOARD,
THEY UPPED THE SALARIES.
I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
A SIGNAL SOME TIME AGO THAT
THIS BOARD WAS PERHAPS
NOT OPEN TO GOVERNMENT
DIRECTION.
SO I THINK THAT THE
GOVERNMENT AND CERTAINLY
THIS MINISTER IN HIS
BLUSTERING AT QUESTION PERIOD,
IS PUTTING AS GOOD A
FACE ON IT AS THEY CAN,
BUT HE HASN'T
ANSWERED THE QUESTION,
WHAT DID THEY IN FACT
OFFER TO CUT IN THAT
RESPONSE TO YOU BY 5:00?

Chris says THEY OFFERED - THEY
DIDN'T OFFER ANYTHING.
THE SENIOR STAFF CAME
FORWARD WITH A PACKAGE
AND THERE WAS
SIGNIFICANT REDUCTIONS,
BUT WHAT THEY DIDN'T TALK
ABOUT WAS THE PENSION.
AND THE PENSION IS ONE THAT
STICKS IN MANY PEOPLE'S CRAW
THAT YOU COULD
GO OUT THERE -

Steve says JUST REMIND
EVERYBODY; THIS IS?
A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

Chris says IN PENSION BENEFITS,
JUST INDEXED FOR LIFE.
AND FRANKLY, THERE WERE
THREE OR FOUR ISSUES
THAT THEY NEEDED
TO ADDRESS.
THEY DIDN'T
ADDRESS THAT.
LET ME JUST SAY IN
THE PREAMBLE, TOO,
THE PREAMBLE OF THE LETTER
WE GOT BACK HAD SO MANY
STRINGS AND SO MANY
CAVEATS AND SO MANY -
THEY WERE SAYING, WE
DON'T LIKE TO DO THIS.
WE THINK YOU'RE WRONG.
WE THINK WE'RE RIGHT.
IT'S REGRETTABLE, YADA.
IT WAS CLEAR, THEY DIDN'T
SEE THIS STRUCTURE THE SAME
WAY WE DID AND WE'RE
THE SHAREHOLDER.

Ruth says SO WHY HAVEN'T YOU
RELEASED THE LETTER?

Chris says BECAUSE IT WAS PRIVILEGED
AND CONFIDENTIAL.
WE CAN'T RELEASE THE LETTER
WITHOUT THE AGREEMENT
FROM THE OTHER SIDE AND WE
CAN'T GET THE AGREEMENT.
IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE.

Steve says RICHARD.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt and patterned tie.

Richard says WELL, YEAH, IF YOU
HAVE A MILLION DOLLAR
A YEAR PENSION, I WOULD
THINK YOU'D WANT IT INDEXED
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT
MILLION DOLLARS OVER TIME,
IT COULD REALLY ERODE.

Steve says ONE PER CENT INFLATION EATS
AWAY AT A MILLION BUCKS
A YEAR LIKE
NOBODY'S BUSINESS.

Richard says OVER A MILLION YEARS, IT'S
WORTH VIRTUALLY NOTHING.
[laughing]

Mac says GOOD LINE.

Richard says I THINK THE THING
ABOUT THIS IS,
IT MAY WELL BE - I LOVE
CHRIS SAYING THAT
HE WAS OBJECTING TO
SEAN'S GRANDSTANDING
IN THE LEGISLATURE AS
HE'S WAVING HIS ARMS
AND EVERYTHING'S
GOING ON THERE.
ONE COLUMNIST
PUT IT THIS WEEK,
THAT THIS THING
IS LIKE A PIÑATA.
EVERY TIME YOU
WHACK IT AROUND,
THERE'S A FEW MORE
THINGS THAT FALL OUT.
IS THE FORMER MIKE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT TO BLAME FOR MUCH
OF THIS, AND THE FORMER
MINISTER, JIM WILSON?
WELL, OF COURSE HE IS.
IS THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT
GOT SOME EGG ON ITS FACE?
ABSOLUTELY.
DOES THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
HAVE TO TAKE SOME
RESPONSIBILITY, AS CHRIS
SUGGESTS, FOR APPROVING
THESE PAY PACKAGES AND
INCREASING OVER TIME?
WELL, OF
COURSE IT DOES.
THERE'S LOTS OF
BLAME TO GO AROUND,
AND I THINK ALL WE HAVE
TO DO IS KIND OF
APPORTION IT FAIRLY.

Chris says BUT LISTEN, RICHARD, I
JUST WANT TO JUMP IN.
YOU KNOW, THERE IS A LOT
OF BLAME TO GO AROUND,
AND I THINK THE NDP AND
LIBERALS DESERVE
SOME BLAME HERE, TOO.

Richard says MIGHT AS WELL
BRING THEM IN TOO.

Chris says THEY WERE CATERWAULING
AND COMPLAINING
FOR WEEKS ABOUT THE BOARD
AND THE FACT THAT
THEY WERE OUT OF
CONTROL AND SO ON.

Richard says WELL,
THAT'S A GOOD THING.

Ruth says SO
THAT'S A GOOD THING.

Richard says THAT HELPED BRING IT
TO YOUR ATTENTION.

Chris says LET ME FINISH.
ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT.
SO WE BRING IN THE
BILL, BILL 80,
TO FIRE THE BOARD, FREEZE
THE PAY, RE-NEGOTIATE.
AND THEY'RE NOT GIVING
US UNANIMOUS CONSENT.
THEY WON'T LET
US PASS THE BILL.
THEY'RE HOLDING
THE BILL UP.
WE CAN'T MOVE
FORWARD.

Richard says I AM SHOCKED.

Ruth says MAYBE THEY'D LIKE
TO DEBATE IT.
MAYBE THEY'D LIKE TO HAVE
SOME PUBLIC HEARINGS.
MAYBE THEY'D LIKE TO BE
MORE OPEN AND HAVE
SOME MORE DISCUSSION
ABOUT THIS.

Steve says IN FAIRNESS, CHRIS,
YOU ASKED THEM FOR UNANIMOUS
CONSENT BEFORE THEY EVEN
HAD A CHANCE TO READ IT.

Chris says IT'S BEEN THREE DAYS.

Richard says I JUST WANT TO SAY, I'M SHOCKED
AT MY LIBERAL COLLEAGUES
THAT THEY WOULDN'T
GIVE UNANIMOUS CONSENT
TO CHRIS TO DO
WHATEVER HE WANTED.
[everyone talking at once]

Chris says YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOME
SLIGHT HYPOCRISY HERE.
THE WEEK BEFORE I INTRODUCED
THE HYDRO BILL, BILL 58,
THE HYDRO BILL, THEY
HAD NO DIFFICULTY,
HAVING NOT READ IT, IN
VOTING AGAINST IT FIRST
READING, SO IT SEEMS THEY
PICK AND CHOOSE WHEN THEY
WANT TO DO THESE THINGS, AND
WHEN THEY NEED TO READ
A BILL AND WHEN THEY DON'T
NEED TO READ A BILL.

Ruth says I THINK ANYBODY IN THIS
LEGISLATURE GIVEN
THE RECORD OF THIS
GOVERNMENT, HARRIS AND EVES,
IN DEALING WITH HYDRO, WOULD
NOT BUY A PIG IN A POKE.
YOU WANT TO DEBATE IT.
YOU WANT TO HAVE SOME
PUBLIC DISCUSSION.
AND THAT'S WHAT YOU
HAVEN'T SO FAR OFFERED
TO THE OPPOSITION.

Chris says THEY ASKED US
TO DO THIS!
THEY ASKED US TO DO
THIS, SO WE DID IT.

Ruth says BUT NOT
TO RAM IT THROUGH.

Richard says WHAT IF THEY HAD
SOME SUGGESTIONS
AS TO YOUR APPROACH?
MAYBE WANT TO AMEND
IT SOME SMALL WAY.
WELL, THAT'S WHAT THE
LEGISLATURE'S FOR.
THAT'S WHY IT'S THERE,
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

Chris says YEAH, YOU'RE APOLOGIST.

Steve says MISTER PENNEY, THERE
ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO
ARE WONDERING WHY THE
GOVERNMENT CHOSE TO MOVE
AGAINST THE BOARD AND
EXPRESS OUTRAGE OVER
THE SIZE OF THE COMPENSATION
PACKAGES AT THE TIME
THAT THEY DID IT.
AND SOME PEOPLE ARE
SUGGESTING - NOBODY AT THIS
TABLE I'M SURE BECAUSE WE'RE
ALL FAIR MINDED PEOPLE -
BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE
SUGGESTING THAT THE GOVERNMENT
KNEW ABOUT THESE PAY
PACKAGES MANY MONTHS BEFORE
THEY ACTUALLY DECIDED TO ACT
ABOUT IT BUT DIDN'T ACT
BECAUSE IT HADN'T BECOME
A BIG POLITICAL FOOTBALL.
WHAT DO YOU WANT
TO SAY ABOUT THAT?
ISN'T THAT A FAIR
COMMENT?

Ruth says HE
CAN'T DISAGREE.
Richard says WHAT HE WANTS
TO SAY IS WISE DECISION,
MINISTER, WELL DONE,
MINISTER.

The caption reads "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with very short white hair. He wears a gray suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

He says THAT'S RIGHT, THE
MINISTER MADE A WISE
AND COURAGEOUS DECISION.
I THINK THAT THE
MINISTER'S RIGHT.
I THINK THE PEOPLE KNOW
ABOUT THE COMPENSATION PACKAGES.
I SUSPECT THEY KNEW ABOUT
THE COMPENSATION PACKAGES.
THERE WAS NO SECRET ABOUT
THE COMPENSATION PACKAGES.

Steve says SO IF EVERYBODY KNEW, WHY
DIDN'T THEY DO ANYTHING
TWO MONTHS AGO,
THREE MONTHS AGO?

Mac says WELL, BECAUSE, I
THINK THE MINISTER
PUT HIS FINGER
RIGHT ON IT.
THE MAY 17TH DECISION
OF THE BOARD,
POST THE DECISION
TO THE COURT,
WHICH GOES OUT AND SAYS,
THAT LOOK, NO MATTER WHAT,
IF IT'S A FOR-PROFIT
CORPORATION ON TUESDAYS
AND THURSDAYS AND A
NOT-FOR-PROFIT ON WEDNESDAYS
AND FRIDAYS, AND WE SHUT IT
DOWN ENTIRELY ON SATURDAYS
AND SUNDAYS, YOU
STILL GET EVERYTHING.
I THINK THAT IS JUST
A SLAP IN THE FACE
TO THE SHAREHOLDER.

Chris says AND WE
WERE PREPARED TO DO IT
IN A BUSINESS-LIKE WAY.
WE WERE PREPARED TO GO OUT
THERE IN A BUSINESS-LIKE WAY
AND DEAL WITH THE
BOARD OF DIRECTORS.
EVERYBODY KNEW.
THEY FILED IN '99 AT OSC,
ONTARIO SECURITY COMMISSION.
THEY FILED IN 2000.
THEY FILED IN 2001.
THEY HAD THEIR
PROSPECTUS OUT IN 2001.
EVERYBODY KNEW.
IT'S NOT LIKE ANYONE CAN
CLAIM THERE WAS A COVER-UP
OR HIDING OR ANYTHING.
EVERYBODY KNEW THE
COMPENSATION LEVELS.
I FOUND THEM A
LITTLE TOO GENEROUS.
THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO DEAL
WITH BUT WHEN THE MAY 17TH
THING CAME IN, IT WAS NO
LONGER A BUSINESS DEAL.

Steve says BUT IF YOUR PREDECESSOR KNEW
SIX MONTHS AGO OR A YEAR AGO
THAT THE PAY PACKAGES
WERE WHAT THEY WERE,
WHY DIDN'T HE
RAISE A FUSS?

Chris says WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW
IF HE DIDN'T RAISE A FUSS.
ALL I CAN TELL US, AS
MINISTER OF ENERGY
AND DEALING WITH THE
PREMIER TODAY,
WE FOUND THEM TO
BE OVERLY GENEROUS.
THAT'S WHY HE DIRECTED
ME TO LOOK INTO THEM.

Ruth says BUT YOUR PREDECESSOR SAID
THEY WOULDN'T RESPOND
TO HIM WHEN
HE RAISED A FUSS
AND YOU FIRED THEM WHEN
THEY RAISED A FUSS.
WHY DIDN'T HE - THE
QUESTION STEVE STARTED
THIS AS, WHY NOW?

Steve says HE CAN'T SPEAK
FOR JIM WILSON.

Ruth says NO, I KNOW HE CAN'T, BUT
THE QUESTION YOU ASKED IS,
WHY NOW?
AND I JUST WANT TO REINFORCE
YOUR IMPLICATION THAT NOW,
BECAUSE THE PUBLIC IS
EXERCISED ABOUT THE WHOLE
ISSUE OF PRIVATIZATION,
THIS IS DISTRACTING -

Steve says HYDRO ONE IS IN
PLAY RIGHT NOW.

Mac says POLITICALLY IT'S IN
PLAY, YOU'RE RIGHT,
BUT IN FAIRNESS, THAT THE
MINISTER WAS DIRECTED BY
THE PREMIER BEFORE MAY 17 TO
TAKING A LOOK AT HYDRO ONE.
TOP TO BOTTOM, SOUP TO
NUTS, THE WHOLE DEAL.

Steve says RICHARD'S BEEN
TRYING TO GET IN.

Mac says YES, AND RICHARD IS QUITE
GOOD AT GETTING IN.
NOW, I THINK -
[laughing]
WE'RE NOT SURE ABOUT SOME
PEOPLE MISTER RICHARD KNOWS...

Steve says OKAY, OKAY, OKAY.
TAKE THE FLOOR,
RICK, COME ON.

Richard says YEAH, TAKE IT AWAY
FROM HIM ANYWAY.
[laughing]
RUTH IS RIGHT AND LET ME
SORT OF JUST EXTEND -

Mac says I THOUGHT I
WAS RIGHT.

Richard says WHY IS THE GOVERNMENT
DOING THIS NOW,
IN RESPONSE TO
YOUR QUESTION.
BECAUSE HYDRO ONE, AS
YOU SUGGEST, IS IN PLAY.
IT IS A COMPLETE
AND TOTAL FOOTBALL.
THIS IS A GOVERNMENT
THAT, NUMBER 1,
MADE THE DECISION TO
PRIVATIZE HYDRO ONE.
FIRST OF ALL, NUMBER 1,
SPLIT UP THE COMPANIES AND
GET IT IN LEGISLATION.
NUMBER 2, MADE A DECISION
TO PRIVATIZE IT.
ALL THESE GUYS, CHRIS, THE
PREMIER, AND SO FORTH,
CAMPAIGNED IN THE LEADERSHIP
ON GOING RIGHT AHEAD
WITH HYDRO ONE.
THEN THE COURT
DECISION COMES.
THEN THE COMPENSATION PAY
PACKAGE SCANDAL COMES, RIGHT?
THE GOVERNMENT HAS A HUGE
FOOTBALL ON ITS HAND.
AND AS I THINK MARGARET
WENTE SUGGESTED IN
THE GLOBE
TODAY, THIS
GOVERNMENT IS TRYING
TO BE THE ANTI
MIKE HARRIS.
SO WHAT A PERFECT
OPPORTUNITY TO SAY,
I AM DIFFERENT.
IT IS SLICK.
IT IS MANIPULATIVE, BUT
IT IS PROBABLY CLEVER,
AND SO THEY'RE SAYING,
WELL, MY GOODNESS,
THEY'RE BEING
PAID TOO MUCH.
EVEN THOUGH THEY'VE KNOWN
SINCE '99, 2000, AND 2001.
WE'VE GOT TO STOP
THIS RIGHT NOW.
THE HYDRO ONE IS A BAD IDEA
FOR YOU AND IT'S A GOOD
OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO LOOK
DIFFERENT FROM MIKE HARRIS.
THAT'S WHY YOUR
DOING THIS.

Steve says HANG ON, GIVE THE
MINISTER EQUAL TIME.

Chris says YEAH, I MEAN,
BE FAIR.
IF YOU'RE SAYING TO ME THAT
IT'S A POLITICAL FOOTBALL
AND NOW IT'S IN PLAY,
THAT'S FAIR BALL,
AND I DON'T SAY
IT'S NOT FAIR BALL.
OF COURSE IT IS
IN PLAY TODAY.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IF THE
OPPOSITION WERE
TRULY OUTRAGED AND
EXERCISED ABOUT THIS,
WHY WEREN'T THERE QUESTIONS
OF THE HOUSE IN '99
AND 2000 AND 2001?

Ruth says THERE WERE QUESTIONS
FROM HOWARD HAMPTON
IN NOVEMBER 2001 ABOUT
THE SALARIES AND THE
MINISTER OF THE DAY DEFENDED
THEM AS TO THAT'S WHAT
YOU HAVE TO PAY TO GET GOOD
PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

Chris says RUTH, LISTEN, LISTEN.
LET ME SAY THIS.
FIRST OF ALL, THE SALARIES
WERE DEFENDABLE IN '99 AND 2000.
I KNOW THEY'RE
A LOT OF MONEY,
BUT THEY CERTAINLY
WERE DEFENDABLE.

Ruth says 2001, THE
QUESTION WAS ASKED.

Chris says I UNDERSTAND THAT.
NOW, IN 2001, THEY WENT
THROUGH THE CEILING.
HOWARD'S BEEN CLAIMING FOR
THREE DAYS HE SENT A LETTER
TO THE MINISTRY -

Ruth says YES, HE DID.

Chris says HE'S NEVER PRODUCED A
LETTER UNTIL TODAY AND
IT WAS AN OPEN LETTER,
SO IT MUST HAVE GONE
TO 300 OR 400 PEOPLE.
NOBODY CAN FIND THE LETTER
WHERE HOWIE'S ON THE RECORD.

Ruth says WELL, THAT SHOWS WHAT
YOU'VE DONE TO MINISTRIES.

Steve says OKAY, HANG
ON, LET ME -

Chris says NO, NO, THIS IS
THE MEDIA!
THIS IS THE MEDIA.
[everyone arguing at once]

Steve says LET'S AWAY FROM
THIS FOR A SECOND.
I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE
BEGINNING, IF I CAN,
CHRIS, BECAUSE I
REMEMBER LAST DECEMBER,
MIKE HARRIS ANNOUNCED ON
BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT,
HYDRO ONE, THE TRANSMISSION
GRID, WOULD BE SOLD.

Chris says RIGHT.

Steve says BIGGEST IPO IN CANADIAN
HISTORY AT 5 BILLION PLUS.
DURING THE NEXT FOUR OR
FIVE MONTHS OF LEADERSHIP
CONVENTION, MISTER EVES,
AND YOU, BOTH OF WHOM
RAN FOR THE
LEADERSHIP,
AGREED WITH THAT POLICY,
SAID THAT WAS THE WAY TO GO.
THEN OUT OF THE BLUE, THE
SALE IS OFF THE TABLE.
AND NOW, NUMEROUS
ISSUES ARE APPARENTLY
ON THE TABLE; WHY?

Chris says WELL, I THINK IN A LOT OF
WAYS - I DON'T AGREE WITH
JUSTICE GANS' DECISION.
BUT JUSTICE GANS MAY
HAVE DONE US A FAVOUR.
HE GAVE US AN OPPORTUNITY
OF LOOKING AT THIS AGAIN.

Steve says REMIND EVERYBODY
WHAT THAT'S ABOUT.

Chris says THE DECISION WAS, JUSTICE
GANS SAYS YOU CAN'T SELL IT
BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T
EXPLICIT IN THE LEGISLATION
YOU WERE GOING TO MOVE
FORWARD TO SELL IT.
HE MAY HAVE DONE
US A FAVOUR.
I THINK HE DID
DO US A FAVOUR.
HE GAVE US A CHANCE TO
EXPLORE ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS,
TO REVIEW THIS THING.
TO TALK TO THE PUBLIC
ABOUT IT AND EXPLAIN IT.
THE PUBLIC DOESN'T
UNDERSTAND IT.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT
GENERATION IS ALREADY OPEN.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT
THE GRID IS HYDRO ONE
AND ALL THIS IS
ALL ENMESHED.
AND I THINK IF YOU GET AN
OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLAIN IT
TO THEM AND PRESENT SOME
OPTIONS AND REVIEW IT,
WHATEVER DECISION
WE TAKE, I THINK,
WILL BE A MORE ACCEPTABLE
DECISION TO THE PUBLIC
BECAUSE I THINK THEY HAVE
A BETTER UNDERSTANDING
TODAY THAN THEY DID
BEFORE GANS.

Steve says ARE YOU ANY CLOSER
TO A DECISION
ON THE FUTURE
OF HYDRO ONE?

Chris says YES, WE'RE VERY CLOSE.
YOU'RE GOING TO
SEE A DECISION
IN THE NEXT
COUPLE OF WEEKS.
NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS.
YEAH.

Steve says CAN YOU GIVE US A HINT
ABOUT WHAT IT MIGHT BE?
CAN YOU TELL US
WHAT'S OFF THE TABLE?

Chris says PHEW, STATUS QUO.
[laughing]
STATUS QUO'S OFF THE
TABLE, BUT, NO, I MEAN,
I DON'T WANT TO
CLOSE ANY DOORS.

Ruth says STATUS QUO AS IT IS
TODAY OR STATUS QUO
AS IT WAS BEFORE YOU
GOT INTO THIS MESS?

Chris says WELL, THAT'S ONE WAY
OF LOOKING AT IT.
STATUS QUO AS
IT IS TODAY.
WE NEED CAPITAL
INFUSION.
WE NEED A HUGE
CAPITAL INFUSION.
WE NEED MARKET
DISCIPLINE.
WE NEED THINGS TO
BE PUT TOWARDS IT.
I KNOW THAT DOESN'T -
RUTH DOESN'T LIKE THAT.

Ruth says IF I HEAR THAT PHRASE
MARKET DISCIPLINE AGAIN...

Chris says YOU SHOULD HAVE HEARD
OF IT BETWEEN '90
AND '95 AND YOU WOULDN'T
BE SITTING HERE.
YOU MIGHT STILL BE
IN THE LEGISLATURE.

Ruth says THERE ARE RUMOURS THAT IN
FACT THE PERSON WHO PRESIDED
OVER THIS PROVINCE BETWEEN
'90 AND '95 IS BEING CONSIDERED
TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO
TRY TO BAIL YOU OUT
ON HYDRO ONE, SO
DON'T GIVE ME THAT.

Steve says THAT
WOULD BE BOB RAE.

Ruth says THE WHOLE ISSUE OF MARKET
DISCIPLINE WE KEEP BEING
HEARD AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR
WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS DONE, AND I'M SORRY,
IF MARKET DISCIPLINE
IS SALARIES AT THE RANGE, NOT
JUST THAT HYDRO ONE HAVE,
BUT THAT OPG HAVE, AND
SEVERANCE PACKAGES TRIPLE
THE SALARIES, THEN SAVE ME
FROM MARKET DISCIPLINE.

Chris says AH, COME ON, RUTH
THAT'S NOT FAIR.
THEY GAVE WHAT'S HIS NAME
A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

Ruth says NO, BUT HE DIDN'T
TAKE IT.

Steve says LET'S JUST REMIND
EVERYBODY WHAT THAT WAS.
MOREY STRONG.

Chris says HE TOOK A MILLION DOLLARS A
YEAR FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS,
AND THEN HE TOOK
A BUCK A YEAR.
BUT HE WAS PAID A
MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.
YOU CAN'T FIND PEOPLE TO
RUN COMPANIES THIS LARGE.

Steve says THEY OFFERED MARK
ELLISON 900 GRAND
AND THE OUTRAGE
OVER THAT AND THEY
HAD TO SCALE THAT
BACK AS WELL.
I WANT RICK ON THIS
BECAUSE YOU'RE A BIT
OF A MERCHANT BANKER AND
YOU MIGHT KNOW THIS STUFF.
[laughing]
HAS THE GOVERNMENT SO
SMOTHERED HYDRO ONE
IN BAD POLITICS OVER THIS
PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS
THAT NOW EVEN IF THEY
WANTED TO SELL IT,
THE STREET IS RUNNING AWAY
FROM IT LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS.

Richard says WELL, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY
THERE'S A HUGE ASSET THERE
AND AT ANY TIME THERE'LL
BE SOME TAKER OUT
THERE SOMEWHERE FOR IT.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT
THE PAPER THIS WEEK,
THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF
PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING,
NOW, WHAT GIVES?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S
GOING ON HERE?

Chris says ANONYMOUS PEOPLE.

Richard says WELL, NO, BOARD OF THE
DIRECTORS AND PEOPLE SAYING,
HEY, LOOK, YOU CAN'T DO
BUSINESS WITH THESE GUYS.
BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, UNDER
CLOAK OF ANONYMITY,
PEOPLE BECOME VERY,
VERY COURAGEOUS.

Chris says YES.

Richard says BUT I WOULD THINK
IT'LL TAKE TIME.
IF THEY'RE GOING TO GO
BACK TO IPO AND SO FORTH,
IT'LL TAKE THE GOVERNMENT
QUITE A BIT OF TIME.

Mac says I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET
THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT
DECIDES TO DO AN IPO,
THAT THERE WOULD BE
INVESTMENT BANKERS LINED
UP AROUND THE BLOCK
TO DO THE DEAL AND
THEY WOULD COME IN
AND THEY WOULD, SAY,
WELL, BECAUSE OF ALL
THE UNCERTAINTY AND
EVERYTHING ELSE,
WE MAY HAVE TO BUMP THE
COMMISSION JUST A TEENSY
LITTLE BIT, MINISTER.

Chris says LISTEN, A
FEW WEEKS AGO APPARENTLY
THEY WERE PEEING THEIR
PANTS, THEY WERE SO EXCITED.

Mac says SO I DON'T THINK THEY'RE
ALL GOING TO GO AWAY.
BECAUSE OF ALL
THE UNCERTAINTY,
MINISTER'S GOING TO
BE A LITTLE BIT MORE-
[laughing]

Ruth says WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT
AS HE HAS AT THE
BRUCE PRIVATIZATION.

Chris says ADULT DIAPER SALES
WENT THROUGH THE ROOF,
I CAN TELL YOU THIS.

Steve says LAST QUESTION IN MY
LAST 10 SECONDS HERE.
IS THIS THE MOST FUN
YOU'VE HAD IN POLITICS
THIS PAST WEEK?

Chris says YEAH, I LOVE -
I LOVE THE HOUSE.
I LOVE THE GIVE
AND TAKE.
I'M KIDDING WHEN I SAID
CONWAY WITH RESPECT.
I'M ONE OF THE WORST
EXAMPLES OF PEOPLE
WHO GET A LITTLE
OVER THE TOP.
I LOVE IT, IT'S FUN,
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS
SUPPOSED TO BE AND
I ENJOY IT, YEAH.

Steve says I'LL TELL YOU, QUESTION
PERIOD THIS PAST
WEEK HAS NEVER BEEN MORE
EITHER INTERESTING
OR ENTERTAINING.
I'LL GIVE ALL OUT
OF YOU GUYS THAT.

Ruth says AND HAS SHED LESS
LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT.

Steve says NOT NECESSARILY.
I THINK A LOT OF
LIGHT'S BEEN SHED.
CHRIS STOCKWELL,
MINISTER OF ENERGY,
THANKS FOR COMING IN TO
TVO TONIGHT FOR THIS.
AND ENVIRONMENT,
LESS WE FORGET,
AND HOUSE LEADER AND MPP
FOR ETOBICOKE CENTRE.
YOU GOT ENOUGH
TO DO THESE DAYS?

Chris says YES, I DO.

Steve says I WOULD SAY SO.
STAND BY YOU THREE, WE'RE
NOT DONE TALKING ABOUT
HYDRO YET BECAUSE THE
GOVERNMENT, AS YOU KNOW,
IS CONSIDERING MANY OPTIONS
ABOUT THE FUTURE OF HYDRO
NOW THAT THE FULL-FLEDGED
IPO APPEARS TO BE OFF
THE TABLE, OR WE'RE
NOT SO SURE.
WE SHALL SEE.
WE HAVE SENT OUR BACKROOM
411 FOLKS PROWLING THE HALLS
OF QUEEN'S PARK TO SEE WHAT
OPTIONS ARE ON THE TABLE.
WE'RE ALSO GOING TO
TALK SOME LEADERSHIP,
PROVINCIALLY AND
FEDERALLY.
YOU'LL LIKE THIS, RICK,
STICK AROUND FOR THIS.
THERE'S A BIT OF A FEDERAL
LEADERSHIP THING GOING ON -

Richard says REALLY?

Steve says RIGHT NOW YOU
MAY NOT KNOW.
SUSANNA KELLEY AND ROBERT
FISHER, BACKROOM 411,
COME ON IN.

(music plays)

A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says ROBERT, SUSANNA,
OPTIONS, OPTIONS, OPTIONS,
ON HYDRO ONE AND
WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.
SUSANNA, WHAT'S THE
LATEST YOU'RE HEARING?

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

Susanna is in her forties, with short straight strawberry blond hair and bangs. She’s wearing a lilac skirt suit, a white and lilac striped top and a necklace.

She says WELL, I HEAR FROM VERY
SENIOR GOVERNMENT SOURCES
THAT THERE IS A FURTHER
OPTION THAT WE HAVEN'T HEARD
ABOUT BEFORE THAT THEY'RE
CONSIDERING IN THE BACKROOMS
AND GIVING SERIOUS
CONSIDERATION TO,
AND THAT IS SORT OF A SPLIT,
WHERE THEY WOULD MAYBE
RETAIN - THE GOVERNMENT
WOULD RETAIN ABOUT 60 PERCENT
OR MAYBE 75 PERCENT OF HYDRO
ONE, AND THEY WOULD SELL OFF
MAYBE 40 PERCENT OR
25 PERCENT.
THIS WOULD ALLOW THEM TO
ALWAYS HAVE CONTROL OF IT
IN PUBLIC HANDS, WHICH THEY
BELIEVE THE PUBLIC WANTS.
IT WOULD GIVE THEM A CASH
INFUSION THAT THEY BELIEVE
HYDRO ONE NEEDS.
AND IT WOULD GIVE THEM
SOME, WHAT THEY CALL,
PRIVATE SECTOR
DISCIPLINE IN THE ENTITY.

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.
He’s wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and polka dotted black tie.

He says PART OF THE MUSHY MIDDLE
THAT MISTER EVES IS NOW TRYING
TO OCCUPY WHERE BILL DAVIS
WAS, MOVE A LITTLE LEFT,
MOVE A LITTLE RIGHT,
HAVE THIS OPTION,
HAVE THAT OPTION.
AND I THINK HE'S
SHOWING AS PREMIER,
HE CAN TAP DANCE WITH
THE BEST OF THEM.
WHEN THE ISSUES
ARE HOT AND HEAVY,
HE CAN MOVE THIS
WAY OR THAT WAY,
DEPENDING ON WHICH WAY
THE WIND IS MOVING,
AND SUSANNA'S
INFORMATION IS EXACTLY
WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE.
YOU KNOW, MOVE
THIS WAY, THAT WAY,
AS LONG AS I'M A MOVING
TARGET, YOU CAN'T HIT ME.

Susanna says AND IT'S JUST THE
SORT OF PRAGMATIC SOLUTION
THAT MISTER EVES
WOULD BE KNOWN FOR,
WOULD SATISFY THE PUBLIC,
BUT ALSO THOSE PRIVATIZATION
HAWKS IN THE TORY PARTY.

Robert says AND IT DRIVES THE OPPOSITION,
STEVE, TO DISTRACTION.

Steve says WELL, LET'S
TALK ABOUT THAT.
THE LIBERALS, IN
PARTICULAR, HAVE QUITE
A NEW TAG
TEAM ON THIS THING.

Robert says YEAH, THEY GOT MICHAEL
BRYANT AND SEAN CONWAY,
SO YOU'VE GOT
THE OLD GRUMPY GUY
FROM NORTH RENFREW, WHO'S
HINTING AGAIN HE MIGHT
WANT TO LEAVE POLITICS.

Steve says THAT'S CONWAY.

Robert says HE QUITS ABOUT EVERY
COUPLE OF WEEKS, I THINK.

Susanna says HE SAYS THAT BEFORE
EVERY ELECTION.

Robert says AND THEN YOU'VE GOT THE
YOUNG AND UP-AND-COMER
IN MICHAEL BRYANT, A GUY WHO'S
VERY GOOD ON HIS FEET
AND WHO IS TAG TEAMING WITH
CHRIS STOCKWELL STUFF ON HYDRO.

Steve says HE DID SOME STUFF IN THE
HOUSE THIS WEEK THAT WE
ALL THOUGHT WAS PRETTY GOOD, SO
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.
MICHAEL, ROLL
TAPE IF YOU WOULD.

A clip from a session at the legislature rolls with the caption "Michael Bryant, MPP. Liberal, Saint Paul’s."

Michael is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight light brown hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and purple tie.

He says WE GOT SPEAK NO
EVIL WILSON.
WE GOT SEE NO EVIL EVES,
AND WE'VE GOT HEAR NO EVIL
STOCKWELL, WHO WALKS INTO
THE MINISTRY AND SAYS
TO EVERYBODY, FOR
GOODNESS SAKES,
DON'T TELL ME ABOUT WHAT
HAPPENED BEFORE I GOT
APPOINTED BECAUSE I DON'T
WANT TO HAVE TO ANSWER
IN THE HOUSE!

Steve says SITS IN THE BACK ROW, BUT
ONE OF THEIR STAR PERFORMER.

Robert says ABSOLUTELY.
THIS GUY, I TELL YOU,
HEAR IT HERE FIRST,
THE 411 ON BRYANT IS, HE'S
GOT A BIG FUTURE IN THE PARTY,
AND I KNOW THIS MAY
UPSET RICHARD MAHONEY
AND RAISE THE BLOOD
PRESSURE, BUT I'M
GOING TO
TELL
YOU THIS -

Susanna says YET AGAIN.

Robert says YET AGAIN.
IF DALTON MCGUINTY
EVER FUMBLES,
AND IT'S POSSIBLE BECAUSE
HE'S DONE IT TWICE,
YOU KNOW, THAT
IN FACT -

Steve says WHAT DO
YOU MEAN, TWICE?

Robert says WELL, LEADERSHIP PROBLEMS
AND THEN THE ELECTION
AND SO FORTH, ALL
THAT SORT OF STUFF.
HE FUMBLES HERE
AND THERE.
IF THERE'S A NEW
LEADER FOR THE PARTY,
COUNT ON BRYANT BEING
IN THERE IN THE RACE.
THIS GUY IS SOMEBODY
TO REALLY WATCH.

Steve says OKAY, LEADERSHIP
POLITICS,
LET'S KEEP GOING ON THIS
BECAUSE, OF COURSE,
WE REMEMBER BACK IN MARCH,
MISTER EVES WON THE LEADERSHIP
OF HIS PARTY OVER MISTER
FLAHERTY, JIM FLAHERTY.
HAVE THOSE WOUNDS BEEN
PAPERED OVER YET?
SUSANNA, YOU'RE HEARING LOTS
OF PEOPLE STILL UPSET
WITH JIM FLAHERTY.

Susanna says YES, AND I THINK MISTER
FLAHERTY'S RELATIONS
WITH HIS CABINET COLLEAGUES
CONTINUE TO DETERIORATE.
I'VE HEARD OF A COUPLE
OF INSTANCES WHERE
THEY ARE UNHAPPY
WITH HIM.
VERY SIMILAR INSTANCES OF
THINGS THAT HE'S DONE.
ONE IS UP IN ALLISTON AT
THE ANNOUNCEMENT
OF THE RE-TOOLING OF
THE HONDA PLANT THERE.
JIM WILSON'S RIDING.
MISTER FLAHERTY WENT UP AS THE
ECONOMIC MINISTER TO GIVE
A SPEECH AT IT AND APPARENTLY
HIS PEOPLE DECREED
THAT MISTER WILSON, THE LOCAL
MPP, WAS NOT ALLOWED
TO SPEAK AT THIS.
HE WAS NOT UP
ON THE DAIS.
HE SAT IN THE AUDIENCE, AND
WAS NOT EVEN RECOGNIZED
AT IT, AND I THINK PEOPLE
IN THE WILSON CAMP
ARE VERY UPSET ABOUT THIS.

Steve says ANY MORE?

Susanna says SAME THING HAPPENED
WITH JERRY OUELLETTE.
IN OSHAWA, WHEN GM WAS
ANNOUNCING ANOTHER SHIFT
AT THE PLANT THERE,
SAME THING.
MISTER FLAHERTY
WENT IN.
HIS PEOPLE TOLD MISTER
OUELLETTE WAS NOT
ALLOWED TO SPEAK.
AGAIN, SITTING
IN THE AUDIENCE,
NOT EVEN RECOGNIZED, SO I
THINK MISTER FLAHERTY CONTINUES
TO WRITE THE BOOK ON HOW
TO NOT MAKE FRIENDS
AND NOT INFLUENCE PEOPLE AMONGST
HIS CABINET COLLEAGUES.
MAKES YOU - DO YOU REALLY
WONDER WHY HE DIDN'T
HAVE MANY CABINET MINISTERS
SUPPORTING HIM DURING
HIS LEADERSHIP BID?

Robert says I THINK, STEVE, YOU MAY
START TO SEE MISTER FLAHERTY
TRAVELLING A LOT MORE,
SPENDING A LOT MORE TIME
OUTSIDE OF THE LEGISLATURE,
OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.
MAYBE IN EUROPE
OR SOMETHING.
THIS IS VERY DESTRUCTIVE
FOR THE PARTY
WHAT SUSANNA'S
TALKING ABOUT.
MISTER EVES HAS TRIED VERY HARD
TO BRING EVERYBODY TOGETHER.
IT'S NOT REALLY A FAMILY,
BUT HE'S WORKED HARD
TO BRING EVERYBODY
TOGETHER.
CLEARLY FLAHERTY IS
OFFSIDE AND ULTIMATELY,
'CAUSE ERNIE EVES IS
PREMIER, AFTER ALL.
IT'LL BE FLAHERTY WHO'LL
PAY A PRICE FOR THAT.

Steve says BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE
VERY PETTY STUFF,
BUT THIS KIND OF PETTY
STUFF HAS A POTENTIAL
TO GO A LONG WAY
IN POLITICS?

Robert says PETTINESS IS ALL
PART OF POLITICS.

Susanna says IT IS ALSO THE TYPE OF THING
THAT HIS CABINET COLLEAGUES
HAVE BEHIND THE SCENES
ACCUSED MISTER FLAHERTY
OF DOING FOR THE LAST
YEAR AND A HALF.

Steve says OKAY.
THE BEST LEADERSHIP
STORY IN THE COUNTRY,
OF COURSE TODAY IS, CHRETIEN
VERSUS MARTIN IN OTTAWA.
OF COURSE WE HAVE AN
ONTARIO LIBERAL PARTY
WHICH PRESUMABLY WILL GET
STUCK WITH SOME OF THE MUD
OF ALL OF THIS, SO
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING,
ROBERT, ON THAT
SUBJECT?

Robert says I HATE TO SAY THIS, STEVE,
BUT HERE WE GO AGAIN,
BAD NEWS FOR
DALTON MCGUINTY.

Steve says ROBERT, HAVE WE
EVER DONE A SHOW WHERE
YOU HAVEN'T SAID BAD NEWS
FOR DALTON MCGUINTY?

Robert says WELL THERE IS GOOD NEWS
FOR DALTON MCGUINTY.
HE'S GOT A VERY STRONG
CAUCUS TO BACK HIM UP
IF HE HAPPENS TO FALL.
RICHARD MAHONEY
MAY NOT LIKE THIS,
BUT THE REALITY IS - THE
REALITY IS THAT IT'S
A PROBLEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
A LIBERAL IS A LIBERAL
IS A LIBERAL.
THAT'S SHEILA
COPPS' LINE.
I THINK IT'S
STILL APPLICABLE.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A
CAUCUS THAT WILL HAVE
TO BE ENGAGED IN THE FEDERAL
FIGHT AT SOME POINT.
TWO THINGS, DALTON MCGUINTY
SENT OUT A ONE-PAGE MEMO
THIS WEEK SAYING,
STAY OUT OF THE RACE.
SO FAR THAT'S HAPPENED.
CLOSER WE GET TO SOME
LEADERSHIP HAPPENINGS
IN OTTAWA, PROVINCIAL GUYS
ARE GOING TO GET INVOLVED.
THE OTHER THING IS, THE
LIBERALS ARE VERY NERVOUS
ABOUT TALKING ABOUT THIS.
JIM BRADLEY, ANOTHER GRUMPY
OLD MAN IN THE LIBERAL CAUCUS,
TELLING CAUCUS
MEMBERS THIS WEEK,
DON'T TALK TO THE
MEDIA ABOUT THIS.
BAD NEWS.
STAY AWAY FROM IT.

Steve says THAT'S

Robert says PROBABLY GOOD ADVICE.
WELL, PROBABLY, EXCEPT THAT
IT SHOWS YOU HOW NERVOUS
THEY ARE ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE
SCURRIED INTO THE WOODWORK
AND NOT WANTED TO TALK ABOUT
IT, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS,
YOU KNOW, SANDRA PUPATELLO'S
A MARTIN PERSON.
YOU'VE GOT GEORGE SMITHERMAN
BACKING ALLAN ROCK.
EVERYBODY IS
ALIGNED THERE.
EVEN THE LEADER, DALTON
MCGUINTY'S BACKING JOHN MANLEY.

Steve says HOW COULD HE NOT?

Robert says WELL, THEY SHARE
RIDINGS.

Steve says BOTH
OTTAWA SOUTH, YES.
SUSANNA, LAST WORD?

Susanna says WELL, I JUST THINK IT -
I HATE TO SAY ONE MORE
BAD WORD ABOUT THE
LIBERALS HERE,
BUT I THINK THE
CHRETIEN-MARTIN THING COULD
HAVE SOME BAD FALLOUT FOR
THE PROVINCIAL LIBERALS,
SIMPLY BECAUSE THE PUBLIC
OUT THERE DOESN'T REALLY
DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN
FEDERAL LIBERALS
AND PROVINCIAL LIBERALS.
IF IT LOOKS LIKE THE LIBERAL
PARTY, PERIOD, IS IN CHAOS,
THAT MAY BE BAD FOR THE
PROVINCIAL LIBERALS.

Steve says OKAY, THANKS TO THE BOTH
OF YOU FOR THE 411
FROM THE BACKROOM.
WE'LL DO IT ONE
MORE TIME.

(music plays)

Back in the studio, Steve says IS IT TRUE THAT YOU'RE
PRESIDENT OF THE
ROBERT FISHER FAN CLUB?

Richard says I HEARD THAT ABOUT YOU.
I QUITE LIKE ROBERT
FISHER PERSONALLY,
BUT I MIGHT SUGGEST THAT HE
IS A TOUCH BIASED
WHEN IT COMES TO ANALYZING
THE BENEFITS OF MY
OWN PROVINCIAL LEADER
DALTON MCGUINTY.
WELL, JUST BECAUSE, AS YOU
SUGGESTED ON THE SHOW,
THERE HAS NOT
BEEN ONE PROGRAM,
GETTING BACK TO
THE DEBATE IN 1995,
THAT HE HASN'T TORCHED
DALTON MCGUINTY
EVERY OPPORTUNITY
HE GETS.

Mac says ROBERT IS A GRUMPY OLD
MAN AT BACKROOM 411.

Steve says HE IS, IS HE?
[laughing]

Richard says OUR WHOLE FRONT
BENCH IS GRUMPY.
[laughing]

Mac says OLD AND GRUMPY.

Ruth says BUT I DO LOVE THE PHRASE, A
LIBERAL IS A LIBERAL
IS A LIBERAL.
MY FRIENDS IN BRITISH
COLUMBIA ARE UNDERSTANDING
ABOUT THESE THINGS.

Mac says I THOUGHT DALTON MCGUINTY
WAS SUPPORTING
JEAN CHRETIEN, NOT
JOHN MANLEY.

Richard says ONE SERIOUS THING IF
WE COULD ON THIS SHOW,
IS THAT I SUSPECT THAT THE
FEDERAL LIBERAL ISSUES,
WHICH I AM SOMEWHAT
FAMILIAR WITH,
WON'T HAVE THAT MUCH OF
AN IMPACT ON THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION.
WE DECIDE ON WHO'S
BEST TO GOVERN ONTARIO.

Ruth says NEITHER WILL
THE FEDERAL NDP.

Steve says THAT'S IT, WE'RE
OUT OF TIME.
MAC, RUTH, RICHARD,
MANY THANKS FOR THIS.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ted Ambrose.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 275