Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 274 | Jun 02, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS
WEEK ON 4th READING...

A clip shows two politicians signing documents, and then shaking hands.

Steve says A BREAKTHROUGH ON HOUSING.
ONTARIO MOVES BACK INTO THE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING GAME
AFTER A NEW DEAL NETS THE
PROVINCE 10,000 NEW HOMES.

Steve and 4 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit, over a blue shirt.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY
AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO
4th READING.
A PLACE TO CALL HOME IS A
PRETTY BASIC CANADIAN DREAM
THAT MOST PEOPLE
TAKE FOR GRANTED.
BUT FOR THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES
IN THIS PROVINCE, IT'S A DREAM
THAT HAS BEEN BEYOND REACH.
THIS WEEK THOSE FAMILIES
GOT SOME GOOD NEWS.
UNDER A BREAKTHROUGH ACCORD
SIGNED BY THE FEDERAL AND
ONTARIO GOVERNMENTS, 10,500
NEW AFFORDABLE HOMES ARE
COMING TO THIS PROVINCE.
PROVINCIAL HOUSING MINISTER
CHRIS HODGSON CALLS IT
A GOOD START.

A clip shows Chris Hodgson and John Manley sitting at a desk, signing documents.
Chris is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.
John is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair.

Steve says CHRIS HODGSON SIGNED
ON THE DOTTED LINE.
ONTARIO'S MINISTER FOR
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING
RATIFIED A HOUSING ACCORD
WITH DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER
JOHN MANLEY THIS WEEK.
THE PLAN WOULD BUILD 10,500
AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS
IN THIS PROVINCE OVER
THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.
FOR THEIR PART, THE FEDS ARE
COMMITTING 245 MILLION DOLLARS.
ONTARIO, MUNICIPALITIES AND
CHARITIES WILL MATCH THIS.

A clip shows Chris talking with the press.
A caption reads "Chris Hodgson. Min. of Municipal Affairs and Housing."

He says MOST OF
THESE UNITS WILL BE BUILT
BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOESN'T
WANT TO OWN THE MORTGAGE.
WE DON'T WANT TO OWN THE
MORTGAGES, AND I'M NOT ASKING
THE MUNICIPALITIES TO HOLD THE
MORTGAGE EITHER, BUT WE DO
WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE'S
UNITS THAT ARE AFFORDABLE FOR
FAMILIES IN THIS PROVINCE.

Dominic is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short black hair, and is wearing a black suit, blue shirt, and plaid green tie.
A caption reads "Dominic Agostino. Liberal Housing Critic."

He says THERE'S NOT ENOUGH MONEY.
THERE'S NOT GOING TO
BE ENOUGH INCENTIVE.
YOU'RE GOING TO GET UNITS
BUILT A THOUSAND, TWELVE
HUNDRED DOLLARS A POP, NOT
UNITS BUILT THAT ARE GOING TO
BE AFFORDABLE, AND YOU TRY,
IF YOU'RE MAKING 30,000 OR
25,000 IN TORONTO, TO HAVE TO
PAY A THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH
FOR AN APARTMENT IS OUT OF
RANGE AND DOESN'T DO ANYTHING
TO HELP.

Steve says QUEEN'S PARK ITSELF
WILL PUT IN 56 MILLION DOLLARS.
SOME OF THIS IS FROM
PROGRAMS ALREADY UNDERWAY.
20 MILLION IS NEW MONEY IN THE
FORM OF PROVINCIAL SALES TAX
EXEMPTIONS FOR DEVELOPERS WHO
WILL BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

Michael is in his fifties, has a short gray moustache, short wavy gray hair, and is wearing a dark blue suit, white shirt, and blue tie.
A caption reads "Michael Prue. NDP Housing Critic."

He says THERE IS A HUGE NEED OUT
THERE, AND TO PUT ASIDE ONLY
20 MILLION DOLLARS OF GOVERNMENT
MONEY, AND TO HAVE THE REST
COME FROM MUNICIPAL
TAX WRITE-OFFS AND THE
MUNICIPALITIES CAN'T AFFORD
IT, FROM HOW MUCH MONEY
CHURCHES ARE ABLE TO COLLECT
BY GOING DOOR TO DOOR AND
HOLDING, YOU KNOW, BAKE SALES,
I THINK IS NOT THE ANSWER THAT
PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR.

A clip shows Chris Hodgson standing behind a podium.

Steve says BUT THE MINISTER SAYS
THE REAL ANSWER TO THE HOUSING
CRUNCH IS TO GET MORE TAX
BREAKS FOR DEVELOPERS TO
ENCOURAGE THEM TO BUILD.

A clip shows Chris talking with the press.

He says IF YOU WANT TO REALLY GET THE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS UP
AND BUILT THAT ARE
SUSTAINABLE, YOU NEED TO
CHANGE THE TAX STRUCTURE.
AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL THE
CMH, INSURANCE RATES ARE
TOO HIGH, AND SECONDLY THE
CAPITAL GAINS PROVISIONS,
YOU'RE NOT -- YOU DON'T HAVE
THE SAME INCENTIVE TO INVEST
IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING AS YOU
WOULD TO INVEST IN OTHER
SECTORS OF THE ECONOMY.
THOSE THINGS, THOSE STRUCTURAL
IMPEDIMENTS IN THE TAX SYSTEM
NEED TO BE CHANGED.

A clip shows Steve sitting in the studio.

Steve says A LOT OF NUMBERS FLYING AROUND
WHEN IT COMES TO THIS HOUSING
DEAL, SO LET'S TRY TO SORT
THEM OUT BY CHECKING INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE AND GIVING YOU A
SENSE ABOUT WHAT THIS DEAL IS
ALL ABOUT.

A blue slate appears on screen under the title "Housing Accord." It reads "Total Spending: 490 Million Dollars. Units to be built: 10500."

Steve continues THE NEW HOUSING ACCORD CALLS
FOR SPENDING ALMOST 490
MILLION DOLLARS IN ONTARIO ALONE.
THAT WILL RESULT, AS WE
SUGGESTED, IN 10,500 NEW
AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS.

The title changes to "Contributions." It reads "Ottawa: 245 Million Dollars. Ontario: 245 Million Dollars. Queens Park: 56 Million Dollars. Municipalities: 160 Million Dollars. Charities: 17 Million Dollars."

Steve continues NOW, WHO'S CONTRIBUTING WHAT?
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS
KICKING IN NEARLY 245 MILLION DOLLARS.
THAT WILL BE MATCHED BY
PROVINCIAL SPENDING.
IN ONTARIO, QUEEN'S PARK
WILL PUT IN 56 MILLION DOLLARS.
AT LEAST 20 MILLION OF THAT
IS NEW MONEY THROUGH THE
SALES TAX EXEMPTION.
THE MUNICIPALITIES ARE
SPENDING 160 MILLION DOLLARS
AND CHARITIES 17 MILLION.
SO HOW FAR WILL THIS DEAL GO
TO ADDRESSING OUR AFFORDABLE
HOUSING PROBLEMS?
LET US ASK THE MINISTER
WHO HELPED PUT TOGETHER
THIS ACCORD.
CHRIS HODGSON, MINISTER FOR
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING,
MPP FOR HALIBURTON,
VICTORIA, BROCK.
CHRIS, WELCOME BACK TO TVO.
IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

Chris says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve continues YOU KNOW OUR
GROUP OVER HERE.
HERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY FROM
FRASER MILNER CASGRAIN,
BOREALIS CAPITAL IN OTTAWA.
RUTH GRIER, FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER AND FROM NATIONAL
PUBLIC RELATIONS
THERE'S MAC PENNEY.
ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT
CHANGES IN POLICY, I THINK,
FROM THE PETERSON-RAE YEARS...
IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY...
TO THE MIKE HARRIS YEARS, WAS
THE DECISION, IN ESSENCE, TO GET
OUT OF THE AFFORDABLE
HOUSING BUSINESS.
HOW MUCH OF THIS -- HOW MUCH OF
A SIGNAL IS THIS DEAL THAT YOU
GUYS ARE GETTING BACK IN?

A caption reads "Chris Hodgson. Min. of Municipal Affairs and Housing."

Chris says WELL, THIS WAS A FEDERAL
PROGRAM ANNOUNCED A FEW YEARS
BACK, AND I HAD THE HONOUR
OF BEING THE CHAIR OF THE
PROVINCIAL TERRITORIAL
MINISTERS FOR THE LAST YEAR,
AND WE SPENT LAST SUMMER
IN LONDON FOR A WEEK.
HAMMERED OUT A ROUGH AGREEMENT
WITH ALL THE PROVINCES AND
TERRITORIES, BECAUSE YOU KNOW
WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
FIRST ANNOUNCED THE PROGRAM,
THERE WAS WIDESPREAD
DISAGREEMENT ACROSS CANADA
ABOUT THIS PROGRAM.
IT WASN'T ADEQUATE.
IT WASN'T REFLECTIVE OF THE
NEEDS IN VARIOUS PARTS
OF THE COUNTRY.
SO WE SPENT A WEEK LAST SUMMER
HAMMERING OUT A GENERAL
CONSENSUS AND QUEBEC CITY
IN NOVEMBER WE REACHED A
FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT THAT
EVERYONE COULD AGREE TO.

Steve asks BUT IS THIS A SIGNAL THAT
YOU'RE GETTING BACK INTO
THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING
BUILDING BUSINESS?

Chris says THIS IS A SIGNAL TO THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PROGRAM.
WE'RE NOT BLOCKING IT.
WE ACCEPT IT.
IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN TEN
YEARS THAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT'S ACTUALLY GIVING
MONEY BACK TO HOUSING, AND WE
WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'VE
LEARNED FROM THE PAST MISTAKES
AND GO FORWARD WITH A PROGRAM
THAT WILL WORK AND BE
PRACTICAL AND PROVIDE 10,500
UNITS IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS
FOR FAMILIES OF ONTARIO.

Steve says I'M READING BETWEEN
THE LINES HERE.
THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE
A REAL SOLID ENDORSEMENT
OF THE PROJECT GOING ON.

Chris says OUR POLICIES
HAVEN'T AT ALL.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY IS
THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR CAN
BUILD UNITS.
WE DON'T WANT TO HOLD THE
MORTGAGES AND HAVE WHAT THE
AUDITOR USED TO REFER
TO AS A BILLION DOLLAR
BOONDOGGLE WHERE THERE WAS
GRANT MONEY GOING OUT FOR
BUILDINGS THAT DIDN'T
EXIST OR TO CONSULTANTS.
SO WE THINK WE CAN BUILD ON
A VERY PRACTICAL PROGRAM AND
WORK WITH NON-PROFITS,
CHARITIES, MUNICIPALITIES,
THE PRIVATE SECTOR
TO MAKE THIS WORK.

Steve says GIVE US YOUR SENSE
ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE
IN ONTARIO WHO ARE NOW
LOOKING FOR AN AFFORDABLE
PLACE TO LIVE THIS
DEAL WILL HELP.

Chris says 10,500 IS WHAT WE ENVISION
THAT THOSE UNITS WILL BE
CREATED AS A RESULT
OF THIS PROGRAM.
AND THAT'S BASED ON AN
AVERAGE OF 25,000 DOLLARS A UNIT.
NOW IN URBAN AREAS WHERE IT
COSTS MORE, OBVIOUSLY IT'LL BE
MORE TO REDUCE THE COSTS
OF THOSE APARTMENTS.
AND IN SOME OTHER AREAS WHERE
THE MARGINS ARE A LITTLE
BETTER, IT WON'T COST AS
MUCH AS 25,000 A UNIT.
ON AVERAGE IT'D BE 25,000.

Steve says YOU KNOW JACK LAYTON.
TORONTO CITY COUNCILLOR.
HE'S THE HEAD OF
THE FEDERATION OF
CANADIAN MUNICIPALITIES.
HE SAYS THAT BECAUSE THE
SUBSIDY IS TOO LOW, NOTHING
WILL GET DONE IN TORONTO
BECAUSE IT'S JUST NOT GOING
TO BE ENOUGH TO GET
ANYTHING TO HAPPEN.
IS HE RIGHT
ABOUT THAT?

Chris says WELL, I HOPE
JACK'S NOT RIGHT.
JACK'S FAMILIAR
WITH THIS FILE.
HE'S BEEN AROUND
FOR A LOT OF YEARS.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
BROUGHT FORWARD THIS PROGRAM.
WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING WE CAN
TO ASSIST TO MAKE SURE THAT
IT'S DELIVERED RIGHT ACROSS
CANADA, AND WE SIGNED THE
AGREEMENT FOR
ONTARIO YESTERDAY.
QUEBEC'S ALREADY
SIGNED AND B.C.
THERE'S STILL OTHER
TERRITORIES AND OTHER
PROVINCES THAT NEED TO SIGN.
BUT I LOOK FORWARD TO
IT BEING A GOOD START,
AND I'M OPTIMISTIC
THAT IT'LL WORK.
IF IT DOESN'T, WE'LL
HAVE TO REFINE IT.

Steve asks RUTH, WHAT'S YOUR
VIEW OF THE AGREEMENT?

Ruth Grier is in her seventies, has short white hair, and is wearing a yellow blazer over a brown blouse.
A caption reads "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

She says WELL, LET ME TRY TO ANSWER
THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU PUT
TO THE MINISTER.
AND I THINK THE MINISTER'S
REALLY BEING QUITE CLEAR.
THIS DOES NOT SIGNAL
A CHANGE IN POLICY.
THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GETTING
BACK INTO WHAT THEY DESCRIBED
AS BRICKS AND MORTAR.
AND I THINK THEY'VE GOT
AWAY WITH A VERY GOOD DEAL
FROM THE FEDS.
I MEAN THE FEDS ARE NOT
REQUIRING ONTARIO TO PUT UP
A GREAT DEAL.
IT'S GOING TO BE
MUNICIPALITIES AND DEVELOPERS
AND NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS
THAT, IN FACT, MAKE UP THE
CONTRIBUTION, OTHER THAN
THE FEDERAL CONTRIBUTION.
AND THERE IS NO GUARANTEE
THAT, IN FACT, THESE WILL BE
AFFORDABLE IN TERMS OF THOSE
WHO ARE NOW ON THE WAITING
LIST -- OF WHICH THERE ARE
60,000 PEOPLE IN TORONTO
FOR APARTMENTS.
AND ONLY 25 PERCENT OF
THEM HAVE TO BE BUILT BY
NON-PROFITS, AND IT WAS THE
CO-OPS AND THE NON-PROFITS
AND THE MUNICIPALITIES THAT
CREATED THE AFFORDABLE HOUSING
THAT WE NOW HAVE.
SO, YOU KNOW, AS TORONTO
COUNCILLORS, INCLUDING DAVID
MILLER, HAVE SAID, YOU
KNOW, THIS IS A START.
BUT, FOR ME, I DON'T THINK
THE EMPEROR'S WEARING VERY
MANY CLOTHES.

Steve says THERE CERTAINLY
IS A NEED FOR –

Chris says I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS
A COUPLE OF THOSE ISSUES.
FIRST OF ALL, ON THE
AFFORDABILITY PART, THERE'S
TWO THINGS THAT COULD -- THE
CMHC GUIDELINE THAT SETS
AFFORDABILITY IS THE
SORT OF THE FLOOR.
IF A MUNICIPALITY WISHES TO
HAVE AN AFFORDABILITY CRITERIA
THAT'S HIGHER THAN
THAT, THEY CAN.

Ruth says BUT THE FLOOR IS THE
CURRENT RATES IN AN AREA,
AND TORONTO'S RATES ARE
AROUND 1,100, 1,200.

Chris continues IF THE COUNCIL DECIDES
THAT THEY WANT TO SEE UNITS
AT A MORE -- A CHEAPER
RATE, THEY CAN.
I'M ALLOWING THE
MUNICIPALITIES TO CHOOSE
THE AFFORDABILITY RATE.

Steve says JUST A
WORD OF EXPLANATION.
CMHC IS THE CANADA MORTGAGE
AND HOUSING CORPORATION,
WHICH IS THE FEDERAL CROWN
CORPORATION THAT YOU
NEGOTIATED WITH TO –

Chris says THAT REPORTS
TO Mr. MANLEY.
TO Mr. MANLEY, YES.
HEAD OF CROWN CORPORATIONS.

Mac Penney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with very short gray hair. He is beige shirt.
A caption reads "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says IT HAS A HUGE SURPLUS
IN ITS INSURANCE ACCOUNT.
IT SURE DOES.
YEAH, THEY MAKE
A LOT OF DOUGH.
WHICH IT COULD USE TO
SUBSTANTIALLY OFFSET SOME
OF THE RATES THEY CHARGE
ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

Steve says THERE'S A QUESTION
COMING ABOUT THIS LATER.

Mac says IS THERE?
OKAY, STEVE.
I'LL LET YOU GET
TO THAT THEN.

Steve says RICHARD, YOUR TAKE
ON THIS AGREEMENT.
I KNOW THAT TORONTO GETS A LOT
OF ATTENTION WHEN IT COMES TO
AFFORDABLE HOUSING, BECAUSE
IT'S PROBABLY GOT THE WORST
SITUATION, BUT OBVIOUSLY OTHER
CITIES, OTTAWA, HAMILTON,
GUELPH, THEY'VE GOT AFFORDABLE
HOUSING PROBLEMS AS WELL.
HOW DO YOU SEE THIS
AFFECTING THEM?

Richard is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. He is wearing a purple suit, pale blue shirt, and spotted green tie.
A caption reads "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says WELL, THE OTHER CITIES,
NO QUESTION, THEY DO HAVE
AFFORDABLE HOUSING PROBLEMS,
BUT I DON'T -- THOSE OF US WHO
SPEND ANY TIME IN TORONTO,
IT'S NOT -- I DON'T THINK IT'S
A HUGE STARTLING FACT
TO KNOW THAT THERE IS A VERY
SERIOUS PROBLEM HERE.
WE HAD VERY RECENTLY A CHILD
BORN IN A SHANTY IN TORONTO,
AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT'S A

IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM HERE.
I THINK THAT THE DEAL, GIVEN
THE MINISTER'S OWN RELUCTANCE
TO SORT OF EMBRACE IT, IT
SHOWS IT IS A BIT MORE OF
A FEDERAL-MUNICIPAL –

Chris says I SIGNED IT.

Steve says HE DID.
HE DID.
DID I SAY THAT?

Richard says YOU DID,
CHRIS, YOU DID.
IN FAIRNESS, YOU DID.
AND RUTH'S POINT IS RIGHT
IN THE SENSE THAT UNDER
PREMIER HARRIS, THE GOVERNMENT
FLATLY REFUSED TO DO THAT.

Chris says THAT'S NOT TRUE.

Richard continues AND NOW THEY HAVE AND THAT
IS A GOOD START, FOR ONE.
NUMBER TWO, I THINK THAT
YOU'VE MADE IT CLEAR THAT IT'S
NOT A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN
POLICY FOR YOU, BUT I THINK
THAT IS INDICATIVE
OF WHAT'S HAPPENING.
THIS IS REALLY MORE OF A
FEDERAL-MUNICIPAL DEAL
THAN IT IS A
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL DEAL.
AND THAT IS MARKED BY THE FACT
THAT THERE'S ONLY 20 MILLION
OF NEW MONEY COMING FROM THE
PROVINCE IN THIS REGARD.

Steve says IT'S NOT EVEN
NEW MONEY ACTUALLY.

Ruth says YEAH, IT'S WHAT
THEY'VE ALREADY SPENT.

Steve continues IT IS A SALES TAX HOLIDAY IN
ESSENCE, FOR DEVELOPERS TO
PURCHASE THE SUPPLIES THEY
NEED TO BUILD THESE THINGS,
RIGHT?

Chris says YEAH, BUT IT'S THE ONLY MONEY
OF THE AGREEMENT IN ONTARIO...
IF YOU WANT TO GET BLUNT ABOUT
IT -- THAT I HAD TO GO TO
THE FINANCE DEPARTMENT AND
PUT IN A FINANCIAL PLAN.
THE MUNICIPALITIES AREN'T
RECEIVING A DIME RIGHT NOW
FROM THESE FEES OR THE TAXATION
BECAUSE NOBODY'S BUILDING.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S
POCKETING 400-500 MILLION
A YEAR.
THEY'RE PUTTING BACK 170 SO
THEY'RE ACTUALLY MAKING MONEY
ON THE HOUSING PORTFOLIO.
I'M THE ONLY MINISTER THAT
HAD TO GO TO THE FINANCE
DEPARTMENT AND
GET NEW DOLLARS.
SO IF YOU WANT TO CRITICIZE
THE MONEY, WHEN YOU GET DOWN
TO THE FACTS, WHAT I'VE
LOOKED AT IS TRY TO TAKE AN
OPTIMISTIC VIEW.
IT'S THE FIRST TIME IN TEN
YEARS THAT THE FEDERAL
LIBERALS ARE ACTUALLY MAKING
HOUSING THEIR PRIORITY.
I'M NOT GOING TO STOP THAT.
I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO
SEEING 10,500 UNITS CREATED,
AND I'M OPTIMISTIC
ABOUT THAT.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT WHAT'S THE
INCENTIVE FOR ANY DEVELOPER...
AND WE KNOW A LOT OF THIS IS
ALLEGEDLY TO BE DEVELOPED BY
THE PRIVATE SECTOR -- TO BUILD
AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING
IN TORONTO?
I MEAN THEY NEED A MUCH
GREATER SUBSIDY PER UNIT IF
THE RENTS ARE TO COME IN AT
ANYTHING UNDER 1,000
DOLLARS A MONTH.

Chris says WELL, LET'S BACK
UP FOR A SECOND.
THE MARKET WORKS
ON THE HIGH END.
IT NEVER USED TO
BUT IT DOES NOW.
THIS IS A BANDAGE APPROACH FOR
ABOUT FOUR YEARS TO MAKE IT SO
THE MARKET NUMBERS WILL WORK.
YOU MAKE A PROFIT AND
HAVE AFFORDABLE RENTS.
LONG TERM WHAT NEEDS TO
HAPPEN -- AND THIS IS WHAT
MANLEY TALKED ABOUT YESTERDAY
IN A PRESS CONFERENCE,
WHAT I TALKED ABOUT.
THERE ARE SOME STRUCTURAL
BARRIERS THAT NEED
TO BE REMOVED.
ONE IS THE CMHC INSURANCE
RATE'S TOO HIGH AND,
SECONDLY, THE TAX TREATMENT.
IT DISADVANTAGES INVESTMENTS
IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING COMPARED
TO OTHER INVESTMENTS LIKE
SHOPPING MALLS, CONDOMINIUMS
OR AIRLINE PURCHASES.
JETLINERS.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT IT'S BEEN 7 YEARS
SINCE YOU TOOK OFF RENT
CONTROL, AND YOU SAID THEN
THAT IT WOULD START TO BE –

Chris says THAT IS WORKING, AND
I'VE GOT SOME GREAT QUOTES
FROM THE EXPERTS IN THIS
FIELD, LIKE PHIL DEWAN,
FAIR RENT ORGANIZATION.

Ruth says I COULD FIND
OTHER EXPERTS.

Chris continues THAT SAID
THAT'S A GOOD START.
THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY
NO RENTAL HOUSING BEING
BUILT 7 YEARS AGO.
THERE IS SOME
BEING BUILT TODAY.
THAT'S A START.
THIS PROGRAM SHOULD HELP
AT LEAST TO KICKSTART IT.

Steve says THE ONE GUY WHO HASN'T
SPOKEN YET IS MAC PENNEY,
AND I'D LIKE TO GET HIS VIEW
AS A GOOD LOYAL ONTARIO TORY
ON THE BRILLIANCE OF THIS
FEDERAL LIBERAL INITIATIVE.
GO AHEAD, MAC.

Mac says WELL, I THINK THAT THE PRIME
MINISTER, I UNDERSTAND, AND
RICHARD WOULD BE IN A MUCH
BETTER POSITION TO CHECK THIS
THAN I.
HIS MEETING WITH Mr. EVES LAST
WEEK CREDITED Mr. HODGSON WITH
MOVING THIS THING FORWARD FROM
LAST SUMMER AND THE FACT THAT
HE WAS ABLE TO GET A LOT OF
PROVINCES TO COME ALONG.
SO I THINK THE MINISTER MIGHT
BE UNDULY MODEST AND RICHARD –

Steve says BUT LET
ME ASK YOU THIS.
OKAY, BUT LET ME ASK YOU A
MORE SERIOUS QUESTION, WHICH
IS DO YOU THINK THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO GET
MORE SERIOUSLY INVOLVED
IN BUILDING HOUSING?
RENTAL AFFORDABLE
HOUSING NOWADAYS?

Mac says WELL, I THINK AS A TORY
I FIND GREAT COMFORT IN THE
FACT THAT THE MINISTER HAS
FOUND A DIFFERENT APPROACH
HERE THAN THE BRICKS AND
MORTAR AND THE HEAVILY
SUBSIDIZED OPERATING APPROACH
WHICH WAS ADOPTED IN THE 1980s
AND EARLY 1990s, WHICH WAS
COSTING US HUGE SUMS OF MONEY.
AND BEFORE RUTH JUMPS IN ON
THIS -- I NOTE THAT EVEN THOUGH
IT'S COSTING US HUGE SUMS
OF MONEY, WAITING LISTS FOR
AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN TORONTO
WEREN'T GETTING ANY SHORTER
UNDER THAT SORT OF
PROGRAM AS WELL.

Ruth says NOT AS MANY PEOPLE
WERE LIVING IN SHANTIES
OR ON THE STREETS.
IT WAS HOUSING THAT PEOPLE
COULD MOVE TO IF THEY WANTED TO.

Mac says BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS
THOSE PROGRAMS THAT WERE
KEEPING THEM OUT OF SHANTIES.
I THINK A LOT OF THINGS
HAPPENED IN THE EARLY 1990s
THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF
PEOPLE AT THE OTHER END
OF THE ECONOMIC SPECTRUM
WERE DISADVANTAGED BY,
NOT NECESSARILY
THROUGH HOUSING POLICY.

Steve says RICHARD.
I THINK THAT, NUMBER ONE, I
THINK RUTH MADE THE POINT.
I THINK SHE'S RIGHT.
IT'S UNLIKELY THAT EVEN THIS
INITIATIVE, AS WELCOME AS IT IS,
IS GOING TO RESULT IN A
BIG RUSH OF PRIVATE SECTOR
INVESTMENT TO BUILD A WHOLE
BUNCH OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING,
PARTICULARLY IN TORONTO,
BUT EVEN ELSEWHERE.
THE ECONOMICS JUST
AREN'T THERE YET.
MOST OF THE STUFF THAT'S BUILT
HERE IS GOING TO BE BUILT
BY CITIES, NON-PROFITS,
COOPERATIVES AND SO FORTH.
I DON'T DISAGREE
WITH THE MINISTER.
THE PROBABLY LONG-TERM
SOLUTION WOULD BE -- INVOLVE
EVEN A FURTHER FEDERAL
PARTICIPATION.
I SAW MINISTER MARTIN SPEAKING
TO THE FEDERATION OF CANADIAN
MUNICIPALITIES EARLIER THIS
WEEK WHERE JACK LAYTON AND
THE FEDERATION CHAIR PUT
FORWARD SOME INITIATIVES ON
THAT ALONG THE LINES OF THE
TAXATIONS IDEAS THAT MINISTER
HODGSON TALKED ABOUT.
IT WILL ALSO, OF COURSE,
PROBABLY REVOLVE AROUND
SOME SIGNIFICANT FURTHER
PARTICIPATION FROM OUR
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT,
OTHERWISE THE ECONOMICS ARE
JUST NOT GOING TO BE THERE FOR
THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO BUILD
THIS AND SOMEONE
HAS TO BUILD IT.

Ruth asks ARE YOU SAYING
THAT A CHANGE AT THE TOP
AT THE PROVINCE HAS FINALLY
GOT THIS AGREEMENT SIGNED
AND THAT MAYBE A CHANGE AT
THE TOP FEDERALLY WOULD GET
SOME MORE –

Richard says I WOULD NEVER...
I WOULD NEVER SAY THAT.
WHAT I GUESS I WOULD SAY IS

THE MINISTER SAYS, WELL,
FINALLY THE FEDS ARE IN.
THE FEDS DID ANNOUNCE A YEAR
OR TWO YEARS AGO, 750 MILLION
DOLLARS INITIAL INVESTMENT INTO
AFFORDABLE HOUSING NATIONALLY.
OBVIOUSLY THEY ARE LEADING THE
PROVINCE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT
BACK TO THIS AGREEMENT.
SO I THINK THEY GET SOME
CREDIT FOR BRINGING THINGS
TO THE TABLE.

Mac says YEAH, BUT I THINK THAT,
TOO, ON THE TAX SIDE...
AND I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING
THAT THE FEDERAL MINISTER
IN LONDON
ADMITTED LAST YEAR.
WHO WAS IT AT THE TIME?
I THINK IT WAS ALFONSO
GAGLIANO, OUR MAN IN DENMARK,
Mr. BOUDRIA'S SUCCESSOR.
Mr. DON BOUDRIA'S SUCCESSOR.

Steve says BOUDRIA WAS
THE PREDECESSOR.

Mac says Mr. BOUDRIA HAS
NOW GONE BACK TO...
WHERE IS HE?
OH, HOUSE LEADER.
SORRY.
THAT HE DID ACKNOWLEDGE THAT
THERE WAS A REAL NEED ON THE
PART OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
TO REFORM HIS TAX STRUCTURE.
AND I THINK PARTICULARLY WITH
RESPECT TO THE CAPITAL COSTS
ALLOWANCE, AND SOMETHING WE
TALKED ABOUT ON THIS SHOW
ABOUT BEFORE -- AND WE TALKED
ABOUT IT BEFORE BECAUSE IT'S
BEEN ON THE AGENDA FOR AT
LEAST THE LAST 7 YEARS.
AND I'M DELIGHTED TO HEAR THAT
Mr. MARTIN IS NOW TELLING THE
CANADIAN MUNICIPALITIES THAT
THIS IS GOING TO MOVE FORWARD.
CAPITAL COST ALLOWANCES
ISSUES –

Chris says TASK FORCE AND
Ms. SGRO'S REPORT REFERS
TO THE SAME THING.

Mac says JUDY SGRO, ANOTHER
GOOD LIBERAL REPORT THERE –

Ruth says YOU CAN'T PUT ALL THE PRESSURE
ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Mac asks WHY NOT?

Ruth continues AS LONG AS WE HAVE AN ABSENCE
OF RENT CONTROL AND AN ABSENCE
OF ANY MEANINGFUL CONTRIBUTION
TOWARDS THE HOUSING CRISIS AT
THE PROVINCIAL LEVEL.

Chris says ACTUALLY, RUTH, WHEN YOU GET
TOGETHER WITH ALL THE OTHER
PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES,
ONTARIO STILL SPENDS TWICE THE
AMOUNT PER CAPITA ON HOUSING
AS ANY OTHER PROVINCE.

Steve says BUT YOU SPEND
IT ON SHELTER ALLOWANCES
WHICH DON'T REALLY...

Chris says NO, NO.
WE STILL HAVE A LOT
OF CARRYING COSTS FROM
THE DAYS WHEN WE BUILT THE
STOCK THAT'S OUT THERE TODAY.

Mac says 800 MILLION DOLLARS.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT YOU'RE NOT
BUILDING ANY NEW ONES.

Chris says NO, BUT THAT CARRYING COST
IS STILL TWICE AS MUCH AS ANY
OTHER PROVINCE, PER CAPITA.

Ruth says AND JUST THINK WHAT
A MISTAKE IT WOULD BE,
IF IT WASN'T.

Steve says LET ME GET BACK IN
HERE FOR A SECOND.
THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT, AS
WE ALL KNOW, DOWNLOADED THE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOCIAL
HOUSING, WHICH IS NOT QUITE
THE SAME AS AFFORDABLE
HOUSING, BUT SOCIAL HOUSING,
THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE
COST ONTO CITIES AND TOWNS
ACROSS ONTARIO.
IT UPLOADED EDUCATION.
I WANT TO KNOW IF THERE'S ANY
POSSIBILITY, NOW THAT ERNIE
EVES IS IN POWER -- AND
SOME THINGS ARE DIFFERENT.
Mr. EVES HAS MADE HIS OWN WAY
ON SOME FILES -- WHETHER THAT
MIGHT CHANGE, AND HOUSING
RESPONSIBILITY MIGHT
COME BACK UP.

Chris says IF YOU'RE ASKING ME
PERSONALLY, I WOULD NEVER
WANT TO SEE THAT.
I BELIEVE THAT THE CHANGES
TO THE FUNDING FORMULA
FOR EDUCATION ARE FAIR.
THEY'RE NOT BASED ON THE
WEALTH OF AN ASSESSMENT BASE
FOR THE EDUCATION
OF OUR CHILDREN.
WHETHER YOU WANT TO TWEAK THAT
FUNDING FORMULA OR RAISE IT,
THAT'S A DIFFERENT DEBATE, BUT
PHILOSOPHICALLY IT SHOULDN'T
BE ON THE PROPERTY TAX.

Steve says NO, BUT I MEAN –

Chris continues THE HOUSING SIDE, THE
MUNICIPALITIES' ADMINISTRATION
OF THE HOUSING
FILE MAKES SENSE.
THEY FOUND AT LEAST 100
MILLION IN SAVINGS.
IT MAKES SENSE IF YOU HAVE A
TOWN THAT HAS THREE DIFFERENT
HOUSING PROVIDERS.
THAT'S WHY THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT PASSED IT DOWN TO
THE MUNICIPALITIES AS WELL.
THERE'S EFFICIENCIES
THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND.
MOST MUNICIPALITIES AGREE
THAT THAT MAKES SENSE FROM
AN OPERATIONAL STANDPOINT.
WHAT THEY'RE WORRIED
ABOUT WAS THE LIABILITY
OF THE STRUCTURES AND THE
CAPITAL STATE OF GOOD REPAIR.
BUT FROM AN OPERATIONS POINT,
IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

Steve says THEN MY QUESTION TO YOU IS
WHY DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING
TO DO WITH
THIS AT ALL?
IF THIS WAS ESSENTIALLY AN
AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT AND CITIES AND
TOWNS WHICH ADMINISTER –

Chris says I OFFERED THAT.

Steve asks THEN WHY ARE YOU
EVEN AT THE TABLE?

Chris says I OFFERED THAT AND THE OTHER
PROVINCES AND TERRITORIES
AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
THOUGHT, WELL, WE'RE CLOSE
TO AN AGREEMENT.
LET'S JUST WORK THROUGH IT.
BUT IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
WASN'T WILLING TO SIGN WITH
OUR PROVINCE, I SUGGESTED
THEY COULD GO DIRECT.
I WAS NEVER
OPPOSED TO THAT.

Steve says OH, ALL RIGHT.

Ruth says QUEBEC'S DOING 65,000...
6,500 HOUSING UNITS PER YEAR
IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS,
COMPARED TO OUR 2,000 A YEAR.
SO OTHER PROVINCES
ARE BEING PROACTIVE.

Chris says RUTH, IN FAIRNESS TO THAT,
WE HAVE GOT PERMISSION TO
FRONTLOAD IT,
SAME AS QUEBEC.
IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR PRESS
RELEASES, THEY ARE UNDER
THE SAME
FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT.
THE MONEY COULD BE FLOWED
OVER FOUR YEARS OR IF WE CAN
GET IT UP AND RUNNING QUICKER,
WE CAN FLOW THE MONEY QUICKER.

Steve says LET ME JUST GET
THE FOLLOW-UP TO THIS.
THE FOLLOW-UP THEN IS YOU ARE
STILL RETAINING CONTROL OVER
APPROVING ALL THE PROJECTS,
EVEN THOUGH THE CITIES AND THE
TOWNS OF THIS PROVINCE ARE
REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
COST OF ADMINISTRATION.

Chris says WE'LL HAVE TO WORK WITH
THE 47 SERVICE MANAGERS.
I WANT TO DEVELOP A PROGRAM
GUIDE AND A BOOKLET, AND THEN
WORK WITH THE MUNICIPALITIES
TO DEVELOP THAT BOOKLET.
THEY HAVE SERVICE PROVIDERS
THAT ARE KNOWLEDGEABLE AND
EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD, AND I
THINK WE CAN ACHIEVE A GOOD
PROGRAM THAT'LL BE PRACTICAL.

Steve says OKAY, MINUTE TO GO.
RICHARD, COME ON IN.

Richard says WELL, IT'S AN INTERESTING
QUESTION THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT
WHY NOT HAVE IT JUST BE A
FEDERAL-MUNICIPAL DEAL SINCE
MOST OF THE MONEY'S
COMING THAT WAY.
AND ONE KUDO TO THE MINISTER
FOR AT LEAST NOT BEING
IDEOLOGICAL ABOUT THAT.
NORMALLY WHEN THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT DEALS DIRECTLY WITH
MUNICIPALITIES, PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENTS GO WILD BECAUSE
THEY SAY MUNICIPALITIES ARE
A CREATURE OF THE PROVINCE.
THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS
MUNICIPALITIES BEING ON THE
FRONTLINE OF NOT ONLY SOCIAL
HOUSING, BUT ALL THESE THINGS,
ARE GOING TO NEED
INFRASTRUCTURE AND FUNDING
AND RESOURCES FROM EVERY LEVEL
OF GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING THE
FEDERAL ONE.

Steve says OKAY.

Mac says I WAS JUST WONDERING
IF ANY OF THOSE HOUSES
IN QUEBEC ARE BEING BUILT
BY GROUP EVEREST OR...
DO YOU KNOW THAT?

Steve says THANK YOU FOR
THAT USEFUL COMMENT.
LET ME ASK ONE MORE THING,
AND THAT IS, YOU ARE NOT ONLY
THE MINISTER OF HOUSING,
YOU'RE ALSO THE MINISTER
OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS, THE
FEDERATION OF CANADIAN
MUNICIPALITIES IS MEETING
AS WE SPEAK IN HAMILTON.
THEY ARE ASKING FOR A
NEW DEAL FOR CITIES.
ARE YOU OPEN TO THAT?

Chris says I AM.
WE'VE GOT -- WE MADE A LOT
OF PROGRESS IN THE LAST YEAR
AND A HALF.
I'VE ENJOYED WORKING
WITH THE MUNICIPALITIES.
THE NEW MUNICIPAL ACT, THE
BROWNFIELD LEGISLATION,
THE RE-INVOLVEMENT IN THE
TRANSIT, 300 MILLION A YEAR.
THE MUNICIPALITIES
WERE ASKING FOR HELP
IN THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.
I THINK WE'VE GONE A LONG
WAY TO ADDRESS THAT,
BUT THERE'S MORE THAT
NEEDS TO BE DONE.
SO I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE
REPORT FROM OUR SMART GROWTH
PANEL, PARTICULARLY THE
CENTRAL ONTARIO PANEL CHAIRED
BY HAZEL MCCALLION.

Steve asks ANYTHING IN THE
UPCOMING BUDGET IN A WEEK
OR TWO OR THREE, WHENEVER
IT'S GOING TO COME OUT?

Chris says WELL, I'D LIKE TO
HAVE THE PLAN FIRST BEFORE
WE START FLOWING
MONEY AROUND.

Ruth asks HOW LONG
WILL THAT BE?

Chris says WELL, WE'RE ASKING FOR SOME
FIRST STEPS ON GRIDLOCK THE
END OF JUNE, BUT A MORE
COMPREHENSIVE PLAN BY THE END
OF AUGUST, EARLY SEPTEMBER.

Steve says OKAY,
THAT'S OUR TIME.
WE'VE GOT TO SAVE SOME TIME
BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO TALK
ABOUT HYDRO, WHICH IS THIS
GOVERNMENT'S FAVOURITE TOPIC,
AS WE KNOW.
CHRIS HODGSON, THANKS SO MUCH
FOR BEING IN HERE TODAY.
IT'S GOOD TO
SEE YOU AGAIN.

Chris says THANK YOU, STEVE.

Steve says COMING UP, HYDRO ONE'S 6
MILLION DOLLARS WOMAN TAKES A PAY CUT.

A clip shows a man in his forties in the legislature. He is clean-shaven, with short brown hair, and wearing a black suit, white shirt, and pink tie.
A caption reads "Michael Bryant. Liberal. St. Paul’s."

He says YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT THE
SINGLE SHAREHOLDER OF A
COMPANY IS DISINTERESTED IN
THE COMPENSATION PACKAGE
OF ITS CEO.
THAT'S ABSURD!
EITHER YOU ARE ASLEEP AT
THE SWITCH OR YOU ARE THE
CONDUCTOR OF THIS GRAVY TRAIN,
BUT EITHER WAY,
EITHER WAY
THE
RATEPAYER IS THE ONE WHO'S
GOING TO PICK UP THE COST!

A clip shows a man in his forties, clean-shaven, balding, with short black hair, and wearing a brown suit, white shirt, and green tie.
A caption reads "Honorable Chris Stockwell. Minister of Environment and Energy."

He says THE REPORT WILL COME BACK
TO ME, AND IT WILL COME BACK
TOMORROW, WHETHER OR NOT THEY
WERE GOING TO BEGIN THESE
NEGOTIATIONS AND REDUCE THE
PAY PACKAGES FOR THE SENIOR
STAFF OF HYDRO ONE.
IF THAT DOESN'T SUCCEED,
WE HAVE OTHER OPTIONS.
BUT THE POINT I'M MAKING
IS THAT WE AGREE
THESE ARE FAR TOO GENEROUS.
THEY'RE FAR TOO SIGNIFICANT,
AND WE'RE TAKING ACTIONS TO
ENSURE THAT THE TAXPAYER
DOESN'T GET HANDED THIS BILL.

Steve says REVELATIONS THAT HYDRO ONE
PRESIDENT AND CEO
ELEANOR CLITHEROE WOULD BE
ELIGIBLE FOR A 6 MILLION DOLLARS
EARLY RETIREMENT PACKAGE WHETHER
THE GOVERNMENT SELLS THE UTILITY
OR NOT PROMPTED HOWLS OF
OUTRAGE IN THE LEGISLATURE
THIS WEEK.
THOSE HOWLS DIDN'T DIMINISH,
EVEN THOUGH ENERGY MINISTER
CHRIS STOCKWELL PROMISED THE
WHOLE DEAL AND OTHERS WITH
A NUMBER OF HYDRO VICE
PRESIDENTS WOULD BE
RENEGOTIATED OR ELSE.
THIS WAS ALSO THE WEEK THAT
SAW THE GOVERNMENT BRING IN
NEW LEGISLATION ALLOWING
IT TO SELL THE ELECTRICITY
TRANSMISSION SYSTEM
IF IT SO CHOOSES.
SO COUPLE THINGS WE
GOT TO GET TO TODAY.
FIRST OF ALL, LET ME ASK
A QUESTION TO YOU, MAC,
IN A WAY YOU PROBABLY WON'T
SUSPECT I'M GOING TO ASK IT.

Mac says SURE.

Steve asks DON'T WE ALL, IN THIS
COUNTRY, WANT TO MAKE AS
MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE, WANT
TO HAVE THE BEST BUYOUT
PROVISIONS POSSIBLE, WANT TO
HAVE A GREAT CAR ALLOWANCE...
175,000 IS HER CAR ALLOWANCE...
WANT TO GET THE BRAND NAME OF
THE COMPANY WE WORK FOR OUT
INTO THE PUBLIC, BE IT ON
BOATS OR WHATEVER.
ISN'T ELEANOR CLITHEROE DOING
EXACTLY WHAT SHE SHOULD BE
DOING WHICH IS TRYING TO GET
THE BEST DEAL SHE POSSIBLY CAN
FOR HER AND HER FAMILY?

Mac says WELL, YOU KNOW, MORE
POWER TO Ms. CLITHEROE.
I THINK THAT THE -- AND, YOU
KNOW, I WOULDN'T WANT TO
PERSONALIZE IT TO ELEANOR
CLITHEROE, BUT I THINK THAT
WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT FROM THE
POINT OF VIEW OF -- IT'S A
CROWN AGENCY STILL.
IT'S A CROWN
CORPORATION STILL.
IT'S A MONOPOLY
BUSINESS STILL.
IT'S IN A MONOPOLY BUSINESS
WHERE EVEN IF IT'S PRIVATIZED
YOU'RE NOT LIKELY TO GET
ANY COMPETITION EVER.
I DON'T SEE ANYONE RUSHING
INTO ONTARIO TO SLAP UP AN
8 BILLION DOLLARS POWER GRID.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT IN THAT
CONTEXT, THAT PACKAGE IS A
LITTLE DIFFICULT TO ACCEPT.

Steve says BUT THEY GAVE
IT TO HER.
THE BOARD GAVE
IT TO HER.

Mac continues AND I THINK THAT THE MINISTER,
QUITE RIGHTLY, IS SAYING
TO THE BOARD, BOARD, YOU KNOW,
YOU'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING
ABOUT THIS BECAUSE I THINK
AS ONE OF THE SHAREHOLDERS
INDIRECTLY OF THE CORPORATION,
THAT I'M A LITTLE UPSET
ABOUT THE DEGREE OF DUE
DILIGENCE PROVIDED BY THE
BOARD IN THIS CASE.

Steve says I THINK IT'S EASY
TO COME DOWN ON HER AND SAY
SHAME ON HER FOR MAKING SO
MUCH MONEY, BUT THE FACT IS
SHE DIDN'T PUT A GUN
TO THE BOARD'S HEAD.
THEY GAVE HER THE DOUGH.

Richard says AGREED.
I AGREE.
AND IT WAS THE BOARD
THAT WAS APPOINTED BY
THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.
APPOINTED BY MINISTER
EVES WHEN HE WAS IN HIS
PREVIOUS INCARNATION.

Steve says IT WAS MIKE HARRIS, I THINK,
WHO APPOINTED THE BOARD.

Richard says HE WAS THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE.

Ruth says BUT, STEVE, IT'S ALSO
PART OF A PATTERN.

Richard says AND THAT BOARD IS
MADE UP OF A LOT OF PEOPLE
WITH VERY CLOSE CONNECTIONS
TO THE CONSERVATIVES.
ITS CHAIR HAS BEEN...
BILL FARLINGER, ONE OF THE
FORMER PREMIER'S CLOSEST
ADVISORS AND FRIENDS.

Ruth says NO, NOT THE
CHAIR OF HYDRO ONE.
THAT'S SIR GRAHAM DAY, WHO
HAD A PRIVATIZATION RECORD
IN ENGLAND.
BUT LET ME
MAKE THE POINT.
FIRST OF ALL, I TAKE EXCEPTION
TO YOUR CHARACTERIZATION
OF 'MOST OF US'.
THERE'S STILL AN ETHOS
OF PUBLIC SERVICE FOR SOME
PEOPLE, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW,
WHILE ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF
ALL OF THIS PRIVATIZATION IS
THAT YOU MOVE PEOPLE INTO THAT
CORPORATE GREED THAT YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT, BUT I WANT TO
PUT THIS IN CONTEXT OF
A PATTERN OF EXCESSIVE
REMUNERATION AND
COMPENSATION AT HYDRO.
WHEN HOWARD HAMPTON RAISED IT
IN THE HOUSE LAST NOVEMBER
ABOUT THE CEO OF ONTARIO
POWER GENERATION,
THE MINISTER AT THE TIME, JIM
WILSON, KNEW ALL ABOUT IT, WAS
FULLY BRIEFED, EXPLAINED THAT
THIS WAS WHAT YOU HAD TO DO
TO GET GOOD PRIVATE SECTOR
PEOPLE, AND THAT IS –

Steve says RUTH, HANG ON.
HANG ON.

Ruth continues NOW THE MINISTER'S SAYING I
DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

Steve says ME THINKS THOU DOST
PROTEST TOO MUCH.
YOURS WAS THE GOVERNMENT THAT
BROUGHT IN MARK ELLISON AND
WANTED TO GIVE HIM 900,000 A
YEAR, WHICH WAS SHOT BACK TO
300 GRAND AFTER HOWLS OF
OUTRAGE WERE SIMILARLY RAISED.

Ruth says MY POINT WAS THAT THE FORMER
MINISTER WAS QUITE COMFORTABLE
DEFENDING AND
TALKING ABOUT IT.
THE CURRENT MINISTER IS
SAYING THAT WAS THE BOARD,
AND IT WAS THE BOARD –

Steve says BUT YOU GUYS
DID THE SAME THING.
YOU DEFENDED THAT IT'S
A MULTIBILLION DOLLAR
CORPORATION AND YOU DEFENDED
IT SAYING YOU GOT TO PAY
THESE PEOPLE A LOT OF
MONEY TO COME IN AND RUN
THESE BIG COMPANIES.

Ruth says SO YOU DO, BUT 6
MILLION IS WAY BEYOND.

Richard says THERE'S NO
QUESTION THAT'S EXCESSIVE,
AND THERE'S LOTS OF TALK
OF DEADLINES THIS WEEK.
THE REAL DEADLINE WAS IN
1997-'98, WHEN THEN MINISTER
EVES AND THE GOVERNMENT
BROUGHT IN LEGISLATION TO A,
SPLIT THESE COMPANIES UP -- THE
FORMER HYDRO COMPANIES UP...
AND, SECONDLY, EXEMPT ALL THE
SUCCESSOR HYDRO COMPANIES
FROM FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION LEGISLATION.
THAT'S WHY THIS IS COMING TO
LIGHT NOW AS OPPOSED TO THEN,
BECAUSE ALL PUBLIC SERVANTS'
SALARIES ARE PUBLISHED MAKING
OVER 100,000 DOLLARS A YEAR, EXCEPT
FOR THESE ONES THAT ARE
EXEMPTED SPECIFICALLY
BY LEGISLATION.

Mac says YEAH, BUT ON THAT POINT,
RICHARD, THERE ARE FILING
REQUIREMENTS FOR HYDRO AS...
THE REASON THIS IS KNOWN,
IN FACT, IS BECAUSE IT WAS A
FILING MADE THROUGH THE OSC.
BY HYDRO.
AND I DON'T THINK WE WANT
TO REVISIT THE DEBATE
ABOUT WHY THAT EXEMPTION
WAS PROVIDED BECAUSE
THEY WERE BECOMING A
MORE COMMERCIAL ENTITY.

Steve says I'M DOWN TO MY LAST
MINUTE AND CHANGE HERE,
AND I DO WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT THE LEGISLATION
THAT ENERGY MINISTER STOCKWELL
INTRODUCED THIS WEEK.
ESSENTIALLY HE WANTED TO KEEP
ALL HIS OPTIONS OPEN FOR WHAT
TO DO WITH HYDRO ONE, WHILE AT
THE SAME TIME THE GOVERNMENT
IS IN COURT SAYING WE WANT
THE RIGHT TO SELL THIS THING,
AND WE ARE ARGUING THAT
WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT
TO SELL THIS THING.
ARE WE SUCKING AND BLOWING
AT THE SAME TIME HERE?

Mac says NO, I DON'T
THINK SO.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT'S IN
COURT BECAUSE -- I THINK THEY
NEED TO GET AN UNDERSTANDING
FROM THE COURT AS TO WHERE THE
BRIGHT LINES ARE AND THE
ABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO
DISPOSE OF ANY ASSET.
AND I THINK THEY NEED A
RULING FROM THE COURT
AS TO WHETHER OR NOT
THEY WOULD REQUIRE SPECIAL
LEGISLATION LIKE THEY'VE NOW
INTRODUCED ON HYDRO ONE
FOR ANY ASSET THEY
WANT TO DISPOSE OF
BY A PRIVATIZATION
IN THE FUTURE.
SO I DON'T THINK THEY'RE
SUCKING AND BLOWING AT ALL.
I THINK THEY
DO
NEED THAT
LEGAL DIRECTION FROM THE COURT.

Ruth says LOOK AT THE ORWELLIAN
TITLE OF THE BILL.
YOU KNOW, CONSUMER RESIDENTIAL
RATE AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
OR SOMETHING.
IT'S ANOTHER OF THESE BILLS
LIKE THE TENANT PROTECTION ACT,
THAT IS CLOSING SOME
STABLE DOORS LONG AFTER THE
HORSES HAVE BOLTED WITH
RESPECT TO CONSUMERS
AND TRYING TO MISLEAD
US BY WHAT IT'S CALLED.

Steve says LAST TWENTY
TO YOU, RICHARD.

Mac says RUTH, THE
RATES CAME DOWN.

Steve says HANG ON.
LAST TWENTY TO RICHARD.

Richard says IT'S GOING TO BE A TOUGH
WEEK FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
THE IMAGE OF THE WEEK IS GOING
TO BE THE YACHT, THE HUNDREDS
OF THOUSAND DOLLARS TO
SPONSOR A HYDRO ONE YACHT,
THE 175,000 DOLLARS CAR ALLOWANCE
AND THE 6 MILLION DOLLARS PAYMENT.
DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.

Mac says WHY CAN'T THE IMAGE
OF THE WEEK BE 10,500
NEW AFFORDABLE HOUSING
UNITS, STEVE?

Richard says BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Steve says MAC PENNEY, RICHARD
MAHONEY, RUTH GRIER.
THANKS FOR YOUR
CONTRIBUTIONS THIS WEEK.

Mac asks WHY CAN'T THAT BE
THE IMAGE OF THE WEEK?

Steve says BECAUSE IT CAN'T!

Ruth says THIS IS REAL AND
THAT'S A –

Mac says THAT'S THE IMAGE
OF THE WEEK.

Steve says THAT'S IT EVERYBODY, OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music Plays and the end credits roll.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority MMII.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 274