Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 273 | May 26, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK
ON 4TH READING:
WALKERTON, THE
FINAL REPORT.
WHAT IS THE STATE OF OUR
WATER ACROSS THE PROVINCE?

Steve sits in the studio 4 guests.

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray suit and a black shirt.

He says GOOD SUNDAY
AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO 4TH READING.
THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT NEEDS
TO TAKE A MUCH BIGGER ROLE
IN ENSURING OUR DRINKING
WATER IS SAFE TO DRINK.
THAT IS THE GIST OF THE
FINAL REPORT OF THE PUBLIC
INQUIRY INTO THE
WALKERTON WATER TRAGEDY.
SEVEN PEOPLE
DIED, AS YOU KNOW.
THOUSANDS BECAME
SICK AFTER DRINKING
E. COLI INFECTED
WATER TWO YEARS AGO.
THE REPORT'S 93
RECOMMENDATIONS PUSH FOR
AN EXPANDED MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT TO PROTECT WATER,
"FROM SOURCE TO TAP," AT A
COST OF UP TO 280 MILLION DOLLARS.

A clip rolls with the caption "Chris Stockwell. Minister of Environment."

Chris is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and balding. HE wears a blue suit, pale blue shirt and patterned blue tie.

He says THERE'S NO DOUBT THIS
IS GOING TO COST MONEY,
AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT
THERE'S GOING TO BE
MONEY ATTACHED TO THIS.
AND I KNOW THE MINISTER
OF FINANCE UNDERSTANDS
THERE'S GOING TO BE
MONEY ATTACHED TO IT,
AND SHE'S PREPARED TO
SEE MONEY COME FORWARD.
SO I SUPPOSE THAT'S
WHAT IT MEANS.
THE PROVINCE MUST TAKE
A LEADERSHIP ROLE.
WE MUST ENSURE THIS NEVER,
EVER HAPPENS AGAIN.

The caption changes to "Jim Bradley. Liberal Environment Critic."

Jim is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears glasses, a gray suit, white shirt and black tie.

He says CERTAINLY JUSTICE O'CONNOR'S
REPORT CALLS FOR FAR
MORE STAFF AND IS CALLING
FOR FAR MORE RESOURCES,
FINANCIAL RESOURCES,
NOT TRICKLING OUT
10 MILLION DOLLARS HERE,
10 MILLION DOLLARS THERE.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE
AN INVESTMENT PROBABLY OF
9 BILLION DOLLARS WHEN THEY'RE
FINISHED WITH THE ENTIRE
SYSTEM, AND THEY HAVE TO
MAKE THAT COMMITMENT OR
WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEE
A SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE.

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. Ontario NDP Leader."

Howard is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with short straight graying hair. He wears a black suit, blue shirt and patterned blue tie.

He says THE MONEY THAT WAS CUT FROM
THE MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT
WOULD HAVE TO BE RESTORED.
THE MONEY THAT WAS CUT FROM
THE DEDICATED SAFE DRINKING
WATER PROGRAMS WILL
HAVE TO BE RESTORED.
AND BUDGETS OF AGENCIES LIKE
THE CLEAN WATER AGENCY
WILL HAVE TO BE
RESTORED, AT A MINIMUM.

A slate with the title "Walkerton report" appears.

Steve says OKAY, JUST TO REMIND YOU,
LET'S CHECK INSIDE OUR FACT
FILE FOR MORE SPECIFICS ON
WHAT JUDGE DENNIS O'CONNOR
IS RECOMMENDING.
THE REPORT DOES RECOMMEND A
VASTLY EXPANDED ROLE FOR THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT.
IT SAYS THE PROVINCE MUST
PROVIDE ADEQUATE FUNDING
TO ENSURE OUR DRINKING
WATER PROGRAMS ARE SAFE.
THE PROVINCE SHOULD REQUIRE AND
FUND PROTECTION PLANS FOR ALL
ONTARIO WATERSHEDS, REGULATE FARMING
PRACTICES MORE STRICTLY, PROVIDE CONSTANT
MONITORING OF MUNICIPAL WATERWORKS,
ALLOW ONLY ACCREDITED LABS AND AGENCIES
TO DEAL WITH OUR WATER AND ENSURE EMERGENCY
RESPONSE PLANS
ARE DEVELOPED IN CASE
OF WATER EMERGENCIES.
THE INQUIRY ALSO WANTS A
MUCH EXPANDED ROLE FOR
THE MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT
ITSELF, A MINISTRY,
AS YOU KNOW, THAT WAS
SEVERELY CUT BACK BY
THE TORIES UNDER
MIKE HARRIS.
THE REPORT SUGGESTS THE
MINISTRY DEVELOP A SOURCE TO TAP
WATER MANAGEMENT POLICIES, ENACT A
SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT, CREATE A
DRINKING WATER BRANCH WITH A CHIEF INSPECTOR
FOR DRINKING
WATER SYSTEMS AND OVERSEE ALL CERTIFICATION,
TRAINING AND TESTING OF WATER EMPLOYEES.
SO, WOULD IMPLEMENTING
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS
KEEP OUR WATER SAFE?
HERE TO HELP US ANSWER THAT
QUESTION, COLIN ISAACS,
AN ENVIRONMENTAL CONSULTANT.
COLIN, NICE TO HAVE
YOU BACK AT TVO.

Colin says DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

Steve says YOU KNOW OUR
GANG OVER HERE.
OUR QUEEN'S PARK ANALYST,
WHO'S A FORMER ENVIRONMENT
MINISTER, MAY HAVE SOMETHING
TO SAY ABOUT THIS TODAY,
RUTH GRIER.
MAC PENNEY IS HERE FROM
NATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS,
TORY ACTIVIST.
AND FROM FRASER MILNER
CASGRAIN, BOREALIS CAPITAL,
MAN ABOUT TOWN, THERE'S
RICHARD MAHONEY.
TOO MANY TITLES,
I CAN'T KEEP UP.
COLIN, WHAT DID
YOU THINK?

The caption changes to "Colin Isaacs. Environmental consultant."

Colin is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven and with long wavy receding gray hair. HE wears a blue suit, white shirt with stripes, a patterned blue tie and a pin on his lapel.

He says I THOUGHT IT WAS AN
EXCELLENT REPORT.
I THINK JUSTICE O'CONNOR'S
DONE A SUPER JOB
OF EXPLAINING HOW OUR WATER IS
TREATED, HOW IT'S PROTECTED,
WHAT THE RULES AND
REGULATIONS ARE.
WHO DOES WHAT.
IT'S TREMENDOUSLY
READABLE.
I MEAN, IT'S 600 PAGES
BUT IN ABOUT 3 AND A HALF HOURS,
I WAS ABLE TO GET
THE MEAT OF IT.

Steve says IS THIS AS DAMNING AS
YOU EXPECTED IT TO BE?

Colin says THIS REPORT IS NOT
DAMNING AT ALL.
THIS REPORT DOESN'T
ATTEMPT TO POINT FINGERS.
IT SIMPLY SAYS, HERE'S HOW
IN THE COMMISSION'S OPINION
WE SHOULD BE PROTECTING OUR
DRINKING WATER SUPPLIES.

Steve says MAYBE DAMNING
ISN'T THE RIGHT WORD.
IS THIS AS FAR REACHING
IN TERMS OF
ITS RECOMMENDATIONS AND
DOES IT SUGGEST THAT THINGS
ARE GOING TO HELL IN A
HANDCART IN A WAY
YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT
THEY WOULD HAVE DONE?

Colin says NO, QUITE THE
REVERSE.
HE BUILDS ON
WHAT WE HAVE TODAY.
HE MAKES THE POINT THAT
IT'S NOT A TOTAL DISASTER
IN TERMS OF WATER MANAGEMENT
IN THIS PROVINCE.
BUT THERE'S A LOT THAT NEEDS
TO BE DONE AND HE MAKES
THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT
YOU'VE DESCRIBED.
I THINK THE BIGGEST SURPRISE
IS WHAT'S NOT THERE.
HE HASN'T TALKED ABOUT REOPENING
PROVINCIAL LABORATORIES.
HE HASN'T TALKED ABOUT
THE PROVINCE TAKING OVER
RESPONSIBILITY FOR
DRINKING WATER.
IN FACT, HE SAID THAT THAT
RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD REMAIN
CLEARLY WITH MUNICIPALITIES,
AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE
GIVEN CLEAR AUTHORITY TO
PROVIDE SAFE DRINKING WATER
UNDER A REGULATORY FRAMEWORK
PROVIDED BY THE PROVINCE.

Steve says I WANT TO PICK UP ON BOTH
OF THOSE THINGS LATER,
BUT JUST BEFORE I
GET THESE GUYS IN.
ONE THING I FOUND
INTERESTING AS I WAS READING.
HE SAID, WHAT'S
THE STANDARD?
AND RATHER THAN GET CAUGHT
UP IN A LOT OF NUMBERS
AND PARTS PER BILLION
AND ALL THIS BUSINESS,
HE SAYS, "A REASONABLE
PERSON SHOULD FEEL SAFE
DRINKING THE WATER.
THAT'S THE STANDARD WE
NEED TO MEET IN ONTARIO."
DO WE MEET THAT STANDARD
BY AND LARGE TODAY?

Colin says NO.
THERE'S ALL KINDS OF
SITUATIONS TODAY WHERE
WATER DOESN'T EVEN MEET
THE PROVINCIAL WATER
QUALITY OBJECTIVES.
WE DO HAVE PROBLEMS.
WE KNOW WE
HAVE PROBLEMS.
THAT'S WHY WE HAVE
BOILED WATER ORDERS
ISSUED BY MEDICAL OFFICERS
OF HEALTH ON A PERIODIC BASIS.
THAT'S WHY THE PROVINCE
DOES HAVE TO CLAMP DOWN
FROM TIME TO TIME TO
CLEAN UP SITUATIONS.
BUT HE'S PROPOSING A
COMPLETELY NEW MANAGEMENT
FRAMEWORK AND IT'S VERY
MUCH BASED ON ENVIRONMENTAL
MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS THAT
ARE USED IN INDUSTRY,
PARTICULARLY IN AREAS
LIKE THE FOOD INDUSTRY,
AND DEVELOPING THOSE
AND APPLYING THEM
TO THE DRINKING
WATER SYSTEM.
I THINK IT'S A
VERY WISE APPROACH.

Steve says OKAY, RUTH, OBVIOUSLY
BEING A FORMER MINISTER,
YOU PROBABLY READ THIS
REPORT DIFFERENTLY THAN
EITHER OF YOUR COLLEAGUES
ON THE PANEL, SO TELL ME,
WHAT GRABBED YOU AS
YOU LOOKED THROUGH IT?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth is in her sixties, with short straight white hair. She wears glasses, a patterned blouse and a coral blazer.

She says WELL, I THINK WHAT GRABBED
ME MOST IS HOW HARD JUSTICE
O'CONNOR HAD OBVIOUSLY TRIED
TO MAKE IT A PRACTICAL REPORT,
SOMETHING THAT
COULD BE IMPLEMENTED.
HE'S OBVIOUSLY LISTENED
WIDELY AND TAKEN ALL
THE POINTS OF VIEW INTO ACCOUNT,
AND STRUGGLED WITH HOW
TO MAKE THE RECOMMENDATIONS
IMPLEMENTABLE,
EVEN TO THE COSTING OF THEM,
AND THAT'S DIFFERENT
FROM MOST REPORTS
THAT WE USUALLY GET.
I DISAGREE WITH COLIN A
LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I THINK
THAT IT SENDS A VERY CLEAR
MESSAGE TO THE PROVINCE,
THAT THE DIRECTION IN
WHICH THEY HAD BEEN GOING,
I.E., DOWNSIZING, DEVOLVING,
UNDER THE GIBBONS REPORT,
SORT OF DISMANTLING THE
MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
IT SAYS THERE IS A VERY
STRONG PROVINCIAL ROLE,
WHILE MUNICIPALITIES WILL
RUN THE WATER SYSTEMS,
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT,
IT HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE.
RECOMMENDS THE SAFE
DRINKING WATER ACT.
SO MY HOPE IS THAT THE
PROVINCE WILL LOOK AT IT
FROM A NON-IDEOLOGICAL
POINT OF VIEW,
AND FROM A NON-PARTISAN
VIEW, AND WILL SAY, WELL,
MARILYN CHURLEY'S SAFE
DRINKING WATERS ACT
HAS HAD SECOND READING.
LET'S PROCEED WITH THAT
AS A TOKEN OF GOOD FAITH.

Steve says INTRODUCED TWO
YEARS AGO, I THINK.

Ruth says INTRODUCED
TWO YEARS AGO,
HAVING HAD SUPPORT FROM
ALL THREE PARTIES.
SO THAT THEY WILL LOOK
AT IT AND SAY, YES,
THERE ARE SOME THINGS
WE COULD DO HERE.
LET'S GET ON WITH IT.

Steve says WHAT DID YOU TAKE
FROM THIS AS YOU READ IT?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a blue suit, gray shirt and patterned tie.

He says WELL, I AGREE WITH MANY
OF THE OBSERVATIONS
THAT COLIN AND RUTH
HAVE MADE IN THE SENSE
IT WAS A VERY
PRACTICAL APPROACH.
JUDICIAL INQUIRIES DON'T
ALWAYS - INTO A TRAGEDY
LIKE WALKERTON -
RESULT IN THE MOST
COMMON SENSE REGIMES.
THEY'RE MORE FOCUSED
ON FINDING FAULT AND
CULPABILITY AND SO FORTH.
I THINK COLIN IS RIGHT,
THAT KEEPING WATER
WITH THE MUNICIPALITIES
MAKES SOME SENSE,
AND ONE OF THE THINGS
MISTER JUSTICE O'CONNOR SAYS IS,
LET'S MAKE SURE WE HAVE
A PROVINCE THAT PROVIDES
THE REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT
TO REGULATE THE ACTIVITY
OF THE WATER PROVIDERS.
AND THAT MAKES SENSE TO
ME, RATHER THAN HAVE
THE MINISTRY OF ENVIRONMENT
PROVIDE BOTH WATER
AND REGULATE THE
PROVISION OF WATER.
HAVE ONE LEVEL OF
GOVERNMENT PROVIDE IT
AND THE OTHER
REGULATE IT.
THE ONLY THING I WOULD
DIFFER WITH COLIN ON.
I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE
OF INTERESTING THINGS
THAT REPEAT
FINDINGS HE MADE IN
HIS FIRST REPORT, WHICH IS
THAT HE CENTRES A FAIR BIT
OF TIME IN THE SUMMARY ON
THE ROLE OF THE CUTBACKS
IN MISTER EVES' BUDGETS.
AND THE RESULT OF THAT,
WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY
THAT THERE WAS NO LEGAL
REQUIREMENT FOR THE WATER
TESTING LABS TO REPORT ITS
FINDINGS TO EITHER
THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT OR THE MEDICAL
OFFICER OF HEALTH.
SO HE HAS FOUND AND
REPEATED FAULT THERE.
HE DID ALSO SOMETHING THAT
WE'VE ALSO TALKED A LOT ABOUT
ON THIS SHOW, IT'S THAT EVER
SINCE THIS GOVERNMENT'S
BEEN IN, IT'S BEEN A
FAILURE TO ENFORCE
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS.
A FAILURE TO REGULATE
ENVIRONMENT.
HE TALKS IN THE REPORT ABOUT
THE RED TAPE COMMISSION
WHICH FOR VIEWERS WHO
DON'T REMEMBER THAT,
THE RED TAPE COMMISSION
WAS A GOVERNMENT MPP
WHO WENT AROUND SAYING,
WE GOT TO GET RID
OF ALL THE REGULATIONS.
WE'VE GOT TO DO THAT.
HE SAYS IN THE REPORT, HE
FINDS AS A MATTER OF FACT
THAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING THIS
PROGRAM FOR A LONG TIME,
WHICH IS, THERE
WAS NO CULTURE.
THERE WAS NO ENVIRONMENT IN
THE GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD
HAVE ACTUALLY TAKEN A
RECOMMENDATION TO SAY,
MAKE THESE GUYS REPORT THEIR
FINDINGS TO THE MINISTRY OF
MEDICAL OFFICER OF
HEALTH, THAT IF SUCH
A RECOMMENDATION WAS MADE,
THE GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE
IGNORED IT BECAUSE OF
ITS RED TAPE COMMISSION.

Steve says LET ME GET FROM YOU, MAC,
YOUR SENSE ABOUT HOW
THE GOVERNMENT WILL ACCEPT
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS.
THE FIRST REPORT THAT
THE JUDGE BROUGHT OUT,
THE GOVERNMENT
ON DAY ONE SAID,
WE ACCEPT ALL OF THESE
REPORTS, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
WE WILL IMPLEMENT
THEM ALL.
THEY DID NOT SAY THIS
WEEK ABOUT THIS REPORT.
HOW COME?

The caption reads "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac is in his early fifties, clean-shaven and with very short white hair. He wears a brown suit and white shirt.

He says I THINK THIS REPORT TOOK
TWO YEARS TO WRITE AND
I THINK IT BEHOOVES THE
GOVERNMENT TO TAKE MORE THAN
TWO HOURS TO READ IT
AND COME TO DECISIONS
ON 93 RECOMMENDATIONS.
ESPECIALLY RECOMMENDATIONS
WHICH ARE PRETTY COMPLEX
AND INTERRELATED.
YOU KNOW, IT RAISED SOME
VERY INTERESTING ISSUES.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE
TAKE ON THE ROLE OF MANAGING
WATER ON A WATERSHED
BASIS, THEN THAT, I THINK,
SPEAKS TO A WHOLE SERIES OF
PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT
ISSUES, OVERLAPPING
JURISDICTIONS AMONG
MUNICIPALITIES ON
A WATERSHED BASIS.

Ruth says AND
CONFLICTS SMART GROWTH.

Mac says WELL, IT EITHER CONFLICTS
WITH SMART GROWTH,
OR IT COULD BE QUITE
COMPLEMENTARY TO SMART GROWTH,
BUT THOSE ISSUES
HAD TO BE SORTED OUT.
I THINK, TOO, IF THE
GOVERNMENT IS TO TAKE
A BIGGER ROLE IN MANAGING
FARMING PRACTICES,
FOR EXAMPLE, HOW WILL THAT
FIT WITH THE NUTRIENT
MANAGEMENT ACT WHICH
HAS GONE THROUGH
THE HOUSE UP TO NOW?
HOW IS THAT GOING
TO BE DOVETAILED IN?
I THINK A LOT OF THESE ISSUES
HAVE TO BE WORKED THROUGH.

Steve says WHO CONTROLS
THE ISSUE?
IS IT THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT THAT WILL
REGULATE FARMING PRACTICES,
OR THE AGRICULTURE MINISTER?

Mac says WELL, I THINK THAT'S
ONE ISSUE THAT'S
GOT TO BE WORKED OUT.
I WOULD THINK THAT
IN THE FRAMEWORK
ENVISIONED BY JUSTICE
O'CONNOR, THAT THE
ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATION
WOULD REST WITH
THE MINISTRY OF
THE ENVIRONMENT.

Ruth says RIGHT.

Mac says AND THAT WILL BE - AND
WE'RE KIDDING OURSELVES
IF WE DON'T THINK IT
WILL BE - SOMETHING
OF A POLITICAL ISSUE IN
PARTS OF RURAL ONTARIO.

Ruth says AND THAT'S ONE OF THE
CHANGES IN DIRECTION
GIVING THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT MORE POWER OVER
OTHER MINISTRIES, WHICH IT
USED TO HAVE AND WHICH BOTH
THE LIBERALS AND US
WANTED IT TO HAVE,
IS SOMETHING OF A SIGNIFICANT
CHANGE IN THIS REPORT.

Steve says COLIN, DO YOU THINK
THAT - CLEARLY
THE GOVERNMENT - WELL, I
SHOULDN'T SAY THIS.
I SHOULD ASK IT.
THE JUDGE HAS SAID, WE
NEED MORE ENFORCEMENT
IN THE MINISTRY
ENVIRONMENT.
WE NEED MORE PEOPLE IN
THE MINISTRY ENVIRONMENT.
WE NEED MORE TEETH IN THE
MINISTRY ENVIRONMENT.
WE NEED MORE BUDGET IN
THE MINISTRY ENVIRONMENT.
ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WERE
ESSENTIALLY TAKEN AWAY
OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS.
DID YOU READ THIS
AND SAY, WOW,
THIS IS A PRETTY STINGING
INDICTMENT OF THE CONSERVATIVE
ENVIRONMENTAL RECORD OVER
THE LAST SEVEN YEARS?

Colin says NO, THE REPORT DOESN'T COME
ACROSS THAT WAY AT ALL.
HE'S NOT SAYING
SIMPLY ROLL THE CLOCK BACK
SEVEN YEARS TO
WHAT IT WAS.
HE'S CLEARLY SAYING THAT THE
SYSTEM THAT WE HAD IN PLACE
FOR MUCH LONGER THAN SEVEN
YEARS WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH
TO PROVIDE THE QUALITY OF
WATER THAT PEOPLE WANT TODAY
AND EXPECT TODAY, AND THAT WE'VE
GOT TO HAVE A NEW SYSTEM.
YES, IT HAPPENS THAT THAT
NEW SYSTEM IS GOING TO NEED
A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN
GOVERNMENT TO ADMINISTER IT.
IT'S GOING TO NEED
A LOT MORE PEOPLE
IN MUNICIPALITIES, AS
WELL, TO ADMINISTER IT.

Ruth says THAT'S A VERY
FIND DISTINCTION YOU'RE MAKING.

Mac says NO, I THINK IT'S
VERY GOOD DISTINCTION
THAT HE'S MAKING
BECAUSE EVEN –

Richard says YOU
WOULD SAY THAT.

Mac says WELL, I WOULD, YEAH.
THERE'S A GOOD REASON NOT
TO ROLL THE CLOCK BACK
SEVEN YEARS OR TEN
YEARS OR WHATEVER.

Ruth says NOBODY'S SUGGESTING
WE ROLL THE CLOCK BACK.

Mac says NOW, RUTH, BUT RICHARD
RAISED THIS AND I THINK
JUST TO PICK UP ON ONE
POINT, WHICH IS,
THERE WAS THE ABSENCE OF A
STATUTORY REQUIREMENT
TO REPORT TO MEDICAL
OFFICERS OF HEALTH.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.

Mac says YOU RAISED THAT POINT.
I DON'T THINK THERE EVER WAS
A STATUTORY REQUIREMENT
TO REPORT TO MEDICAL
OFFICERS OF HEALTH,
NO, NO, EVEN UNDER
THE OLD SYSTEM,
THERE WAS NEVER A
REQUIREMENT -

Ruth says IT
WASN'T NECESSARY.

Richard says THE MINISTRY
ENVIRONMENT DID IT
AS A MATTER OF COURSE.

Steve says THEY JUST DID IT
AS A MATTER OF COURSE.

Mac says NO, THEY DID NOT DO IT
AS A MATTER OF COURSE.
AND THIS WAS IN THE
FIRST REPORT WHICH
RICHARD DID NOT REFERENCE,
THAT ONLY 30 PERCENT OF MEDICAL
OFFICERS WERE EVER BRIEFED
OR RECEIVED REGULAR
REPORTS ON WATER QUALITY.
NO, NO, THE POINT IS THAT
70 PERCENT OF THEM DIDN'T
UNDER THE OLD SYSTEM.
THE POINT ALSO IS
THAT THE OLD SYSTEM,
WHICH RICHARD AND RUTH AND
SO WEDDED TO IN SOME DEGREE.

Ruth says COME ON.

Mac says OKAY, I'M SORRY, THAT
IS AN OVERSTATEMENT.

Richard says DRAG IT IN.

Mac says THAT IS AN
OVERSTATEMENT.
BUT THAT SYSTEM DIDN'T CATCH
THE KOEBEL BROTHERS, STEVE.

Richard says NO, AND COLIN
IS RIGHT –

Steve says THAT'S TRUE.

Richard says IT IS NOT THE FAILURE TO
ENFORCE THE FRONTIER LAWS
THAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS
DONE THAT HAS MADE - THAT
RESULTED IN PROBLEMS IN
OUR WATER SUPPLY, RIGHT?
IT'S THE PROBLEMS OF
DETECTION THAT ARE A RESULT
OF THAT, BUT THE PROBLEMS
IN THE WATER SUPPLY AND
THE WATER SYSTEM OBVIOUSLY
PREDATE A GOVERNMENT'S
FAILURE TO REGULATE
IT, ENFORCE IT.
THOSE ARE TWO
SEPARATE ISSUES.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT THE ISSUE IS
SURELY THAT THIS REPORT SAYS
RE-INVEST IN THE
MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
IT DOESN'T SAY, IF YOU
CUT THIS DEPARTMENT
FIVE YEARS AGO PUT
THAT DEPARTMENT BACK.
I AGREE WITH COLIN.
IT SAYS, DO THINGS
DIFFERENTLY AND MUCH BETTER.
BUT THE PRINCIPLE AND
THE POLITICAL POINT IS,
IT ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THE
CUTS HAVE BEEN TOO DEEP
AND NEED TO BE RESTORED.

Richard says THERE ARE
TWO POLITICAL CHALLENGES
FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
I THINK FIRST OF ALL,
WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT
WHO KEEP TELLING US, IT
IS A NEW GOVERNMENT,
AND IT WAS MISTER EVES' BUDGETS
WHICH GAVE RISE TO THE
PROBLEMS THAT MISTER JUSTICE
O'CONNOR HAS NOW SAID
HELPED GIVE RISE
TO WALKERTON.
IN FACT IN THIS
REPORT HE SAYS,
HAD THAT REQUIREMENT
BEEN THERE,
WE MAY NOT HAVE - WE
WOULD HAVE HAD MANY FEWER
ILLNESSES, IF NOT DEATHS.
SECONDLY, WHO'S GOING TO
BELIEVE IN THIS PROVINCE,
NOW THAT WE HAVE HIS
RECOMMENDATIONS,
IF THEY'RE
IMPLEMENTED OR NOT,
WHO'S GOING TO BELIEVE IN
ONTARIO THAT THESE GUYS
ARE THE GUYS WHO ARE GOING
TO ACTUALLY MAKE OUR
ENVIRONMENT BETTER, OUR
ENVIRONMENT CLEANER,
MAKE OUR WATER
SYSTEM WORK BETTER?
I THINK THEY'RE PROBABLY THE
LEAST LIKELY - I'M ONLY
SAYING THAT AS A PARTISAN,
BUT I SUSPECT ONTARIANS
ARE SUSPICIOUS OF THEIR
ABILITY TO DO THAT.

Mac says WELL, I THINK RICHARD
RAISES - HAS PRETTY WELL
ACCURATELY DESCRIBED THE
POLITICAL CHALLENGE
FACING THE GOVERNMENT.
AND THE ONLY WAY THE
GOVERNMENT WILL CONVINCE
PEOPLE IS TO DELIVER.
THEY'VE DELIVERED ON
EIGHT OF THE NINETEEN
RECOMMENDATIONS FROM
THE FIRST REPORT.

Ruth says OH,
BUT HAVEN'T.
THEY HAVE, RUTH.
THEY'VE CHANGED SOME
OF THE REGULATIONS
THEY PUT IN AFTER
WALKERTON.

Mac says THE LEVEL OF MONITORING
IN THE WATER PLANTS
IS HIGHER NOW THAN
IT HAS BEEN.

Ruth says IT'S HIGHER, BUT IT
ISN'T HIGH ENOUGH.

Mac says WELL, EVERY PLANT'S
BEEN INSPECTED.
100 PERCENT INSPECTION
IS PRETTY HIGH RATE
OF INSPECTION.
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU'D
DO BETTER THAN 100 PERCENT.

Ruth says MANY MUNICIPALITIES ARE
WAITING FOR THE FUNDING
TO DO WHAT THEY
NEED TO DO.

Mac says AND THEY
INTRODUCED THE -

Richard says WELL, LET
ME ASK COLIN A QUESTION.
AND THEY'VE INTRODUCED
WATERSHED MONITORING,
WATER QUALITY MONITORING.
YOU'RE AN EXPERT
ON THIS.
YOU'VE SEEN THIS.
DO YOU THINK THAT THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO,
AS IT IS CURRENTLY
CONSTITUTED, IS GOING TO
DEVOTE - THIS IS
GOING TO HAVE TO BE
ONE OF THE CENTRAL PARTS OF
ITS AGENDA OVER THE NEXT
TWO YEARS IF IT IS TO IMPLEMENT
THESE - THAT'S MY READ
OF IT ANYWAYS - IF IT'S
GOING TO IMPLEMENT THIS REPORT.
IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO FOCUS
ON THIS MORE THAN CUTTING
TAXES AND MORE THAN ALL
THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE
SUPPOSEDLY CENTRAL
TO THEM.
DO YOU THINK THEY'RE
GOING TO DO THAT?
THEY'RE EITHER GOING TO
HAVE THE POLITICAL WILL
AND THE POLITICAL WEIGHT
TO GET THOSE CHANGES IN?

Colin says I THINK YOUR ANALYSIS
IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO ARE
GOING TO MEASURE THE SUCCESS
OF THIS GOVERNMENT
BY WHETHER OR NOT
THEY IMPLEMENT THESE
RECOMMENDATIONS.
WHETHER THEY DO
THAT, I'M NOT SURE.
I THINK IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT FOR THEM.
THESE ARE
CHALLENGING TIMES.
IT IS EXPENSIVE.
THOUGH MISTER JUSTICE O'CONNOR
MAKES IT CLEAR THAT
IT'S THE USERS OF THE
WATER THAT SHOULD BE
PAYING THESE COSTS.

Ruth says AND IT'S 19 DOLLARS
A YEAR.

Colin says LITERALLY 19 DOLLARS A
HOUSEHOLD A YEAR,
RATHER THAN IT SIMPLY COMING
OUT OF GENERAL REVENUE.
I THINK THAT'S DOABLE.
AND QUITE FRANKLY, I THINK
THAT THE REPORT IS VERY MUCH
WRITTEN FOR THIS GOVERNMENT
AND FOR THESE POLITICAL TIMES.
AND IF THE GOVERNMENT
DOESN'T PICK IT UP AND RUN
WITH IT, I THINK ONTARIO
WILL BE MUCH THE WORSE FOR IT.

Ruth says AND ANOTHER CONSIDERATION
IS THAT THE MINISTER
WHO IS CHARGED
WITH THIS,
IS ALSO THE MINISTER OF
ENERGY THAT'S DEVOTING
A LOT OF HIS ENERGY TO AN
UNWANTED DEREGULATION
AND DEVOLVEMENT OF HYDRO.

Steve says THIS SHOW'S
NOT ABOUT HYDRO, RUTH.
[laughter]

Ruth says I KNOW, AND
HOUSE LEADER.
THE POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS,
IF THEY'RE SERIOUS ABOUT
IMPLEMENTING THIS, IT'S
GOT TO BE THE FOCUS OF
THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT'S
WORK FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS
AS OPPOSED TO ALL THE OTHER
THINGS THAT ARE ON HIS PLATE.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU THE
QUESTION THAT COLIN RAISED
A NUMBER OF MINUTES
AGO, WHICH WAS,
THE NOTION THAT THE - THE
REPORT IS SILENT
ON WHO SHOULD GET TO
DO THE TESTING.
IT SAYS THE LABS HAVE
TO BE ACCREDITED,
BUT IT DOESN'T SAY IT'S GOT
TO BE GOVERNMENT RUN LABS.
THERE'S APPARENTLY ROOM
FOR PRIVATE LABS HERE.
IS THAT OKAY WITH YOU?

Ruth says THERE'S ALSO ROOM
FOR PRIVATELY RUN
CONTRACTING OUT THE RUNNING
OF THE WATER SYSTEMS.
THAT HAPPENS NOW IN
ABOUT 30 MUNICIPALITIES.
SO THAT I THINK THAT'S PART
OF THE PRACTICALITY OF JUDGE
O'CONNOR'S REPORT, THAT THIS
IS A REPORT THAT IS
NOT MEANT TO BE BOGGED DOWN
IN IDEOLOGICAL DEBATE.
IT'S DOABLE.
IT'S MANAGEABLE.
AND THE CHALLENGE
FOR THE GOVERNMENT,
AS COLIN HAS SAID, THEIR
CHALLENGE AS THEY FACE
THE ELECTORATE IN A YEAR OR TWO
IS, HOW WELL THEY'VE DONE.
AND THEY'VE GOT TO DO
BETTER ON IMPLEMENTING
THESE RECOMMENDATIONS
THAN THEY HAVE ON THE
RECOMMENDATIONS
FROM PART ONE.

Richard says WE'D PROBABLY ALL BE A
LITTLE MORE COMFORTABLE,
I THINK, IN MANY WAYS IF
THINGS LIKE WATER
WERE ENTRUSTED IN THE
GOVERNMENT'S HANDS.
ON THE OTHER HAND,
THE TOOTHPASTE IS
OUT OF THE TUBE
ON THIS ONE.
THE EXPERTISE IN MANY
WAYS, AS COLIN POINTS OUT,
IS ALREADY THERE IN PRIVATE
SECTOR LABS AND SO FORTH.
AS LONG AS THE REGULATORY
ENVIRONMENT IS THERE, NUMBER 1,
AND IT IS ENFORCED,
UNLIKE THE GOVERNMENT
HAS DONE IN MANY ENVIRONMENTAL
CASES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS,
FIVE YEARS, THEN
IT SHOULD BE OKAY.
IT SHOULD WORK.

Steve says MAC?

Mac says WELL, WITH RESPECT TO
THE FIRST PHASE
OF THE WALKERTON, THE LAB
ISSUE WAS ALWAYS A RED HERRING.
THE PRIVATIZATION OF THE
LAB ISSUE WAS ALWAYS
A RED HERRING IN
WALKERTON.
THE LAB DID ITS JOB.
IT FOUND, CORRECTLY REPORTED
IT AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
WITH RESPECT TO RUTH, I
THINK RUTH MAKES A VERY GOOD
POINT, THAT JUSTICE O'CONNOR
CLEARLY HAS LEFT THE FIELD
WIDE OPEN FOR THE
MUNICIPALITIES,
RECOGNIZING THAT THERE'S NOT
ONE SOLUTION THAT'S GOING
TO FIT EVERY MUNICIPALITY
IN ONTARIO.
FOR SOME MUNICIPALITIES,
PRIVATIZATION OF
THEIR WATER SYSTEMS MAY
MAKE SENSE; IN OTHERS,
IT MAY MAKE SENSE TO HAVE
AQUA COME IN AND DO IT.
CLEAN WATER AGENCY
RUN IT.
OR THEIR OWN
PEOPLE RUN IT.

Ruth says ACCOUNTABILITY IS AT
THE PROVINCIAL LEVEL.

Mac says ACCOUNTABILITY WILL BE,
UNDER HIS MODEL,
AT THE PROVINCIAL LEVEL.

Steve says I'VE GOT A MINUTE
LEFT TO ASK COLIN.
THIS WAS, MANY PEOPLE
MIGHT NOT KNOW THIS.
THIS WAS THE MOST EXPENSIVE
PUBLIC INQUIRY
IN ONTARIO HISTORY.
ALMOST 10 MILLION DOLLARS AND
AS SOMEBODY SUGGESTED,
A COUPLE OF YEARS
IN THE MAKING.
WAS IT WORTH IT?

Colin says WELL, I THINK THE WATER
IS THE MOST VITAL ISSUE
THAT WE FACE TODAY, AND
I'M CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO
COMPLAIN ABOUT THE AMOUNT
OF MONEY THAT WAS SPENT.
WE'LL FIND OUT WHETHER IT
WAS WORTH IT WHEN WE
SEE WHETHER THE RECOMMENDATIONS
ARE IMPLEMENTED.

Ruth says TO PEOPLE OF WALKERTON,
IT WAS WORTH IT.

Colin says ABSOLUTELY.

Mac says I CHECKED IN TO SEE IF THE
MOST EXPENSIVE ROYAL
COMMISSION WAS NOT - WAS IT
A ROYAL COMMISSION INQUIRY?

Ruth says COMMISSION INQUIRY.

Mac says COMMISSION ON
NORTHERN ENVIRONMENT.

Ruth says NORTHERN
ENVIRONMENT?

Mac says NORTHERN ONTARIO,
BACK IN THE LAST '70s.
RAN FOR LIKE 10 YEARS.

Steve says IT WAS LONGER,
THAT'S FOR SURE.

Mac says IT WAS LONGER.
MAY HAVE MORE - 29
MILLION, I THINK.

Steve says THANK YOU
FOR THAT.

Ruth says IF IT'S IMPLEMENTED,
IT'S CHEAP AT THE PRICE.

Colin says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says WHAT YOU SAID.
COLIN ISAACS, THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR COMING IN TONIGHT
FOR THIS DISCUSSION.
WE'RE GRATEFUL YOU MADE THE
LONG DRIVE FROM HALDIMAND
COUNTY ALL THE WAY HERE.
IT'S NOT HALDIMAND
COUNTY ANYMORE, IS IT?

Colin says YES, THAT'S WHAT
IT'S CALLED.

Steve says IT'S CALLED
HALDIMAND COUNTY?
THAT'S THE NEW NAME
OF OUR MUNICIPALITY.

Steve says OKAY, TERRIFIC.

Mac says AMALGAMATED, WAS IT?

Steve says THANKS SO MUCH.
ALL RIGHT, CLEAN
DRINKING WATER,
CLEARLY THE THEME OF
OUR PROGRAM TODAY.
THE WALKERTON REPORT HAS
NOW BEEN MADE PUBLIC,
BUT THERE ARE DECISIONS
APLENTY NOW BEING CONSIDERED
IN THE BACKROOMS, AND WITH
THAT HERE ARE SUSANNA KELLEY
AND ROBERT FISHER
WITH BACKROOM 411.

(music plays)

A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says OKAY, YOU TWO, LET'S KEEP
TALKING ABOUT WATER,
AND SUSANNA, I'M GOING
TO START WITH YOU.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING IN
THE BACKROOMS ABOUT
DEVELOPING SOME KIND
OF CLEAN WATER POLICY,
A RESPONSE TO
WALKERTON PART 2.


She says RIGHT.
WELL CONTRARY TO WHAT'S
GOING ON IN FRONT OF
THE CAMERAS WHERE THE
GOVERNMENT IS BEING VERY
CIRCUMSPECT ABOUT ANY WATER
POLICY COMMITMENTS,
THERE IS QUITE A DEBATE
GOING ON IN THE BACKROOMS
AND HAS BEEN FOR A WHILE.
THERE'S VERY SERIOUS
CONSIDERATION BEING GIVEN
TO A PROVINCE-WIDE
WATER POLICY,
GOING AHEAD WITH THAT, AND
IT'S GOT A COUPLE
OF VERY INTERESTING
ASPECTS TO IT.
ONE SUGGESTION IS, THE
GOVERNMENT IS CONSIDERING
USING SOME NEW
TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BEING
DEVELOPED IN THE PRIVATE
SECTOR OUT THERE,
PUTTING THE TECHNOLOGY UP AT
THE CENTRE FOR CLEAN WATER
EXCELLENCE UP IN WALKERTON
THAT THE PREMIER PROMISED
DURING THE LEADERSHIP
CAMPAIGN AND DURING
THE THRONE SPEECH.
THIS TECHNOLOGY, I'M TOLD,
WOULD ALERT THE PROVINCE,
THE MUNICIPALITY, AND
OTHER WATER OPERATORS,
TO ANY PROBLEM WITH THE
WATER IN ANY MUNICIPALITY
ACROSS THE PROVINCE,
ALMOST INSTANTANEOUSLY.
INSTANTANEOUSLY FOR
SOME WATER PROBLEMS,
OTHERS SUCH AS E. COLI,
MAY TAKE 12 TO 24 HOURS,
THEY HAVE TO DO A COUPLE OF
TESTS TO ASCERTAIN
WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON.
BUT SO THEY'RE THINKING OF
PUTTING THAT UP THERE
AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY
INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT.

Steve says ROBERT, TALK TO US
ABOUT THE POLITICS OF WATER.
MISTER EVES HASN'T BEEN IN
POWER ALL THAT LONG AND
HE'S HAD A COUPLE OF ENORMOUS
ISSUES PRESENT THEMSELVES
TO HIM, HYDRO BEING THE
FIRST AND OBVIOUS ONE,
AND NOW HERE'S WATER.
WHAT CAN WATER DO TO ELECTORAL
HOPES OF A GOVERNMENT?

The caption changes to "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair.
He’s wearing a gray suit, pale blue shirt, and striped red and blue tie.

He says WELL, I THINK THAT THE
GOVERNMENT RECOGNIZES,
AS SUE'S TALKING
ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
WHAT'S BEING DEVELOPED
IN THE BACKROOMS.
THE FACT IS, THIS IS A
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE,
AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT
HAS TO BE DEALT WITH.
HAS TO BE DEALT WITH BETWEEN
NOW AND THE NEXT ELECTION.
THERE HAS TO BE A MOVEMENT
BY THE GOVERNMENT
THAT'S SEEN BY
THE PUBLIC.
IT JUST CAN'T BE THE
PUBLIC RELATIONS STUFF.
IT'S GOT TO BE REAL
SUBSTANCE, YOU KNOW,
THE PREMIER
GETTING UP THERE,
MAKING ANNOUNCEMENTS LIKE
SUE'S TALKING ABOUT.
IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, YOU'RE
GOING TO PAY A PRICE FOR IT.
IT'S ONE OF THOSE BLACK
CLOUDS THAT HANGS
OVER THIS GOVERNMENT.
IF YOU DON'T GET RID OF IT,
YOU'LL PAY A PRICE FOR THAT.

Susanna says RIGHT, IF THEY DON'T
FIX ANY WATER PROBLEMS,
THEY'RE GOING TO BE IN
PRETTY HOT WATER WITH
THE ELECTORATE WHEN THE
ELECTION COMES ALONG,
AND THEY KNOW IT'S IN THE
NOT TOO DISTANCE FUTURE.
ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT
I HEAR IS,
THERE'S A BILL BEFORE THE
HOUSE WHERE MUNICIPALITIES
WOULD HAVE TO UPGRADE
THEIR WATER SYSTEMS,
AND THAT WOULD BE PAID
FOR BY WATER CONSUMERS.
THIS HAS RAISED A LOT OF
HACKLES OUT IN RURAL
AND NORTHERN
MUNICIPALITIES, I'M TOLD.
AND TO THE POINT WHERE I
BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT
IS READY TO CONSIDER
AMENDMENTS THAT WOULD ALLOW
FOR SOME FINANCING OR SOME
AMALGAMATION OF WATER SYSTEM
OUT IN THOSE AREAS TO MAKE
THIS MORE SUSTAINABLE.
OBVIOUSLY WHAT
THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT IS,
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVING SKY
ROCKETING WATER BILLS
AND BLAMING THE
GOVERNMENT FOR IT.

Steve says TWO MONTHS AGO THIS
WEEKEND, ERNIE EVES WON
THE LEADERSHIP CONVENTION AND
THEN SUBSEQUENTLY WAS SWORN
IN AS PREMIER OF ONTARIO.
SEEMS LIKE ONLY
YESTERDAY.
SEEMS LIKE ONLY YESTERDAY,
SAYS ROBERT FISHER.
WE SHOULD KNOW BY NOW
WHETHER OR NOT THE
TRANSITION FROM MIKE
HARRIS TO ERNIE EVES,
AND WHETHER THE COALESCING
IS HAPPENING OR WHETHER
THERE ARE STILL DIFFICULTIES
THAT HAVE REMAINED AFTER
THAT LEADERSHIP CONVENTION,
WHICH WAS PRETTY CLOSE
AND PRETTY TOUGHLY FOUGHT
BY THE END OF THE DAY.
WHAT ARE YOU
HEARING, ROBERT?

Robert says SOME PEOPLE ARE COMING
TOGETHER AND I THINK
JIM FLAHERTY STILL REMAINS
THE GUY WHO'S OFFSIDE.
YOU WATCH HIM THE HOUSE.
VERY DISINTERESTED.
I THINK BOREDOM IS SOMETHING
THAT'S SORT OF WRITTEN
RIGHT ACROSS HIS
FOREHEAD.
KNOW, JANET
ECKER'S ON SIDE.
YOU SEE ELIZABETH
WITMER ON SIDE.
STOCKWELL IS
WORKING HARD.
I THINK A LOT OF TORIES LIKE
TO SEE HIM SPEND A LITTLE
MORE TIME IN THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT,
A LITTLE LESS ENERGY, BUT
HE'S TRYING TO SPLIT,
YOU KNOW, THREE
WAYS HE'S GOT TO GO.
IT'S A HUGE ISSUE THAT
EVES HAS MADE AN ATTEMPT
TO DEAL WITH.
THE FLAHERTY THING IS
A CONTINUING PROBLEM.
YOU HAD FLAHERTY SPEAK
ABOUT THE HYDRO ISSUE.
EVERY TIME HE SPEAKS
OUT, OF COURSE, WELL,
GO BACK AND LOOK AT WHAT
I SAID IN THE CAMPAIGN.
YOU'VE GOT GET HIM ON THE
SAME SORT OF PAGE AND
THE SAME HYMN BOOK,
OTHERWISE YOU HAVE
A CONTINUING PROBLEM.
YOU TRY TO GET THEM TOGETHER
AT BIGLIARDI'S FOR DINNER
AND SOMEBODY LEAKS
THE INFORMATION.
SUDDENLY THAT
DINNER'S CANCELLED.
SO THE ILL FEELINGS
ARE STILL THERE.
I'M TOLD MISTER EVES IS WORKING
VERY HARD IN BRINGING
EVERYBODY INTO
THE TENT, REALLY.
NOT JUST SUPERFICIALLY.
BUT IT'S STILL A PROBLEM.

Steve says HOW ABOUT SOME
RUFFLED FEATHERS BECAUSE
A COUPLE OF JIM FLAHERTY
SUPPORTERS AT THAT
LEADERSHIP CONVENTION ARE
STILL IN THAT CABINET,
MUCH TO THE CHAGRIN OF SOME
OF ERNIE EVES SUPPORTERS.

Susanna says ABSOLUTELY.
AND APPARENTLY THIS HAS
BECOME QUITE AN ISSUE
IN THE TORY CAUCUS.
THERE ARE SOME EVES'
SUPPORTERS WHO ARE NOT VERY
HAPPY ABOUT THE APPOINTMENT
OF MISTER HUDAK TO CONSUMER
AND BUSINESS SERVICES, WHICH
IS CONSIDERED A REALLY
NICE PLUM PORTFOLIO,
KIND OF A FUN PORTFOLIO.

Steve says TIM'S A YOUNG GUY
FROM NIAGARA PENINSULA.

Susanna says RIGHT.
HE'S HAD A COUPLE
OF TERMS IN.
BUT HE SUPPORTED
MISTER FLAHERTY.
NOW, TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
HAPPENED TO OTHERS
WHO SUPPORTED
MISTER FLAHERTY.
MISTER BAIRD, TAKEN FROM THE HUGE
SOCIAL SERVICES MINISTRY.
HE'S GOVERNMENT WHIP, AND
YOU'VE GOTTA ASK YOURSELF,
AND PEOPLE ARE ASKING, WHY
HAS MISTER HUDAK HAD SUCH
GOOD LUCK, AND PEOPLE SAY
IT'S BECAUSE, WELL,
IT'S NOT WHAT YOU KNOW,
BUT IT'S WHO YOU KNOW.

Steve says AND WHO
DOES HE KNOW?

Susanna says WELL, MISTER HUDAK HAPPENS TO
BE ENGAGED TO DEB HUTTON
WHO FORMERLY IN THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE, NOW AT HYDRO.
AND THEIR LOYALTIES WERE
DIVIDED DURING THE CAMPAIGN.
MISTER HUDAK WITH MISTER FLAHERTY,
BUT MISS HUTTON WITH MISTER EVES.
PEOPLE SAY THAT WAS A VERY
STRATEGIC PURPOSELY DONE
DECISION ON THEIR PART AND
THAT THAT'S WHY MISTER HUDAK
HAS GOT THE
POSITION HE'S GOT.
THAT HAS REALLY RUFFLED THE
FEATHERS OF SOME PEOPLE
IN THE TORY CAUCUS WHO
SUPPORTED MISTER EVES AND
WHO DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT TO
FULL CABINET POSITION.

Steve says DO YOU WANT THE LAST
HALF MINUTE ON THIS, ROBERT?

Robert says WELL, IF YOU'RE
DATING SOMEONE WHO IS KEY
IN YOUR CAMPAIGN, YOU KNOW,
THE TORY BACKBENCH
CAN COMPLAIN ALL
THEY WANT.
DEB HUTTON REMAINS AN
IMPORTANT AND VERY
SIGNIFICANT PART
OF THIS GOVERNMENT,
AND WAS IN THE
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT,
SO THEY CAN COMPLAIN
ABOUT TIM HUDAK,
BUT UNLESS THE MARRIAGE
DOESN'T HAPPEN,
AND IT'S GOING
AHEAD, HE'S SOLID.

Steve says YOU KNOW
SOMETHING WE DON'T KNOW?

Robert says NO, NO, NO,
EVERYTHING IS FINE.
THIS IS NOT ROSY
O'DONNELL HERE, FOLKS.
WE'RE DOING 411.

Susanna says I SPOKE TO MISTER HUDAK
ABOUT THIS AND HE SAYS
THE REASON HE'S GOT THE
POSITION IS HE HAS
A PROVEN TRACK
RECORD IN TOURISM.
HE'S A TEAM PLAYER.
HE'S RIGHT ON THE TEAM
WITH MISTER EVES NOW AND
THIS IS PART OF MISTER EVES
REACHING OUT.

Steve says THE REACHING
EXPRESS CONTINUES.

Robert says THE HYMNARY CONTINUES.

Steve says THERE
YOU GO, OKAY.
SUSANNA KELLEY, ROBERT
FISHER, AS ALWAYS,
THANKS FOR THE 411
FROM THE BACKROOMS.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

Robert says OKAY.

Susanna says A PLEASURE.

(music plays)

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, GANG, NOW THAT
THE SENATORS ARE OUT
AND THE LEAFS APPEAR TO
BE IN VERY DIRE SHAPE,
I THINK WE CAN ALL GATHER
TOGETHER AND ACHIEVE
CONSENSUS AT THIS TABLE,
EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE FROM OTTAWA,
THAT WE NEED SOME GOOD
WISHES FOR THE BUDS, RIGHT?

They join their fists and say
GO, LEAFS, GO.
GO, LEAFS, GO.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
[laughing]
THANKS, FOLKS.

Mac says I'M A HABS FAN.

Steve says SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

Editor, Dean Henry.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 273