Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 267 | Apr 14, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows white and blue balloons falling on the floor in front of a group of politicians.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON "4TH READING"
PLAYING THE POWER GAME.
WHO'LL COME OUT ON TOP IN
ERNIE EVES' NEW CABINET?

(music plays)

Steve and 3 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark gray suit, over a gray shirt.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY
AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO 4TH READING.
POLITICIANS, AIDES, AND
JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN
BURNING UP THE TELEPHONE LINES
THIS WEEK AT QUEEN'S PARK,
EVERYONE FROM ERNIE EVES
TO CABINET MINISTERS
AND APPARATCHIKS ARE TALKING
ABOUT MONDAY'S CABINET SHUFFLE.
WHO'LL BE INCLUDED IN THAT
AUGUST EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
COME NEXT WEEK?
WE HAVE CALLED UPON
OUR BACKROOM 411 TEAM,
ROBERT FISHER AND
SUSANNA KELLEY TO GET
THE LATEST SCUTTLEBUTT.

(music plays)

A clip captioned "Backroom 411" shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

A clip shows Steve, Rob and Susanna sitting on stools.
Rob is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair, and wearing a black suit, pale blue shirt, and striped purple tie.
Susanna is in her forties, has short blond hair, and is wearing a red blazer.

Steve says OKAY, YOU TWO, YOU'VE BEEN
CHECKING IN WITH YOUR SOURCES
ON THE PHONES FINDING OUT
WHAT YOU COULD FIND OUT
ABOUT THIS UPCOMING
SHUFFLE, AND, SUSANNA,
ONE OF THE THINGS I
UNDERSTAND IS HAPPENING
IS THAT WE'RE NOT
FINDING OUT VERY MUCH.
IT'S PRETTY QUIET
OUT THERE.
HOW COME?

A caption reads "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."

Susanna says IT'S VERY QUIET
OUT THERE.
THE SHUFFLE IS UNUSUAL
IN A COUPLE OF WAYS,
THAT BEING ONE OF THEM, AND
THE REASON IS, Mr. EVES,
I'M TOLD, IS KEEPING
THIS VERY CLOSE IN.
THERE'S ONLY A COUPLE
OF ADVISERS WHO KNOW.
HE HAS MET WITH ALL THE
MINISTERS AND PEOPLE WHO
POTENTIALLY ARE GOING
INTO THE CABINET.
THEY HAVE TOLD HIM
WHAT THEY WANT,
BUT HE'S GIVING
NOTHING AWAY.
I'M HEARING THAT EVEN
SOME VERY CLOSE ADVISERS
IN THERE ARE UNHAPPY THAT
THEY'RE NOT BEING TOLD.

Steve says UNHAPPY IN
INVERTED COMMAS.

Susanna says YES!

Steve continues WHICH IS A NICE WAY OF
SAYING REALLY P.O.'D.

Susanna says EXACTLY.
BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE
VERY HAPPY RIGHT NOW
ARE THE MINISTERS BECAUSE
THEY ARE KIND OF TIRED
OF PAID STAFFERS FINDING
OUT WHAT THEIR ROLE
IS GOING TO BE
BEFORE THEY DO.
SO THEY'RE REALLY HAPPY THAT
IT'S BEING HELD SO CLOSE.

A caption reads "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Rob says SOME OF THEM MAY
BE, STEVE, AND I THINK
THIS HAS BEEN A MORE
DIFFICULT EXERCISE
THAN Mr. EVES AND HIS CLOSEST
ADVISERS HAVE THOUGHT
IT WAS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A
BLESSING THAT HE HAD
SO MUCH SUPPORT LEADING
UP TO THE LEADERSHIP
AND GOT HIM TO
BECOME LEADER.
NOW IT'S KIND OF A CURSE
BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY
PEOPLE - YOU KNOW,
PREMIERS WILL TELL YOU,
AS YOU PROBABLY WELL KNOW,
THE MOST DIFFICULT JOB
THEY HAVE IS PUTTING TOGETHER
A CABINET OR TAKING ONE APART.
PUTTING IT TOGETHER,
BALANCING GEOGRAPHY,
GENDER, ALL OF THE
FAVOURS OUT THERE,
MAKING SURE YOU BRING IN
SOME NEW, FRESH PEOPLE
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HAVE
JUST THE SAME OLD GANG
FRONTED WITH A
NEW PREMIER.
YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE SOMETHING
NEW AND DIFFERENT,
AND SO THAT'S WHAT THE
DIFFICULTY HAS BEEN.

Susanna says AND Mr. EVES HAD 34
MPPs AND CABINET MINISTERS
SUPPORTING HIM WHO ARE
EXPECTING REWARDS,
SO IF HE HOLDS TO THE
MAXIM THAT YOU DANCE
WITH THE WOMAN THAT BRUNG
YA, HE'S GOING TO BE
A VERY TIRED MAMBO PARTNER
BY MONDAY AFTERNOON.

Steve says WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT
I THINK IS THE KEY DECISION
THAT HE HAS TO MAKE AND
WHAT'S HE GOING TO DO
WITH JIM FLAHERTY?
JIM FLAHERTY
CAME SECOND.
JIM FLAHERTY'S
EXPECTING AN IMPORTANT
RESPONSIBILITY
IN THIS CABINET.
HE SAYS, I'LL DO ANY
JOB THE PREMIER WANTS.
WE KNOW WHAT
THAT MEANS.
IT MEANS IT BETTER
BE SOMETHING GOOD
OR I'M GOING TO BE
MIGHTY UNHAPPY,
AND SO ARE ALL
THE PEOPLE WHO
SUPPORTED ME GOING
TO BE MIGHTY UNHAPPY.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING
ABOUT WHAT
THE PREMIER INTENDS
TO DO WITH HIM?

Susanna says WELL, Mr. FLAHERTY'S
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LOBBYING
VERY VOCIFEROUSLY FOR
A COUPLE OF WEEKS
FOR HIM TO STAY IN THE
FINANCE PORTFOLIO,
BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M
HEARING MAY WELL HAPPEN.
I'M HEARING MAYBE DAVID
YOUNG OR DAVID TSUBOUCHI
FOR FINANCE, BUT SOME SORT
OF AN ECONOMIC PORTFOLIO
FOR Mr. FLAHERTY.
THE ONE I HEAR MOST
FREQUENTLY IS ENERGY WHERE
HE WOULD BE IN CHARGE OF THE
PRIVATIZATION OF HYDRO ONE.
THIS WOULD NOT BE SEEN AS
A BIG DEMOTION FOR HIM.
THE OTHER ONE IS POSSIBLY
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
AND TRADE, BUT THAT'S
BEEN TOUTED ACTUALLY
FOR JANET ECKER
AS WELL.
IF SHE GOES THERE, I'M
HEARING MAYBE THEY MAY ADD
SOMETHING IN LIKE SCIENCE
AND TECHNOLOGY TO THAT.

Steve asks IN ALL YOUR YEARS OF
COVERING QUEEN'S PARK,
CAN YOU EVER REMEMBER A
FINANCE MINISTER GETTING
DUMPED OR SHUFFLED OUT OF
THE JOB LESS THAN A MONTH
BEFORE HE HAS TO
PRESENT A BUDGET?

Rob says NO, AND YOU KNOW, I
FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE
THEY'RE THINKING
THAT WAY.
I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO
BE SOMETHING THAT Mr. EVES
IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO SELL
NO MATTER HOW HARD HE TRIES.
IF IT'S ENERGY, AS SUE
SAYS, OR SOMETHING ELSE,
OR EVEN SOME SORT OF
ECONOMIC PORTFOLIO OUTSIDE
FINANCE, THAT IS THE NUMBER
ONE SPOT AFTER PREMIER.
AND HE'S PUT SO MUCH
EFFORT INTO THE BUDGET.
NOW, YEAH, HE DID TALK TO A
FEW TORIES ALONG THE WAY
AS HE TRAVELLED ACROSS THE
PROVINCE LOOKING FOR VOTES,
BUT HE ALSO HELD THOSE
PRE-BUDGET CONSULTATIONS,
AND I THINK HE'S BEEN
INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS
FOR SO LONG, AND MAYBE
IN POLITICAL TERMS,
IT'S NOT A BAD IDEA TO
HAVE HIM CARRY THE CAN
IF YOU'VE GOT TO CUT
3, 4, 5 BILLION DOLLARS.

Susanna says I WOULD TAKE ISSUE WITH YOU A
LITTLE BIT ON THAT, ROBERT.
I THINK HE WOULD HAVE A
TERRIBLE TIME WITHIN
THE CABINET SELLING Mr.
FLAHERTY STAYING IN FINANCE.
THOSE LEADERSHIP
CANDIDATES WHO, YOU KNOW,
EITHER DIDN'T RUN FOR
Mr. EVES OR WHO DID RUN
AND BLAME Mr. FLAHERTY.
THEY SAY HE BASICALLY MESSED
AROUND WITH THEIR FUNDING
FORMULAS FOR A YEAR BEFORE
THE LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN STARTED.
I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTS HIM
IN THAT ROLE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

Steve says IT SAYS A LOT, THOUGH,
FOR PARTY UNITY,
IF YOU LEAVE YOUR -
QUOTE/UNQUOTE - YOUR ENEMY
IN THE BIG JOB,
IS IT NOT?

Rob says ALSO ERNIE EVES WAS
FINANCE MINISTER.
HE CAN COUNT LIKE
THE BEST OF THEM.
HE CAN COUNT THE VOTES THAT
Mr. FLAHERTY GOT, TOO,
SO I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE
ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING
APPOINTMENTS THAT COMES
DOWN THE PIKE ON MONDAY.

Steve says SUSANNA,
DEPUTY PREMIER.
WE ALL ASSUMED AT THE
CONVENTION THAT IT WAS GOING
TO BE JANET
ECKER'S GOING IN,
AND THEN MAYBE ELIZABETH
WITMER'S COMING OUT BECAUSE
SHE WENT TO Mr. EVES
ON THAT SECOND BALLOT.
WHAT ARE YOU
HEARING NOW?

Susanna says WELL, POSSIBLY ELIZABETH
WITMER FROM WHAT I'M TOLD.
SHE BELIEVES SHE
WAS PROMISED THAT,
BUT Mr. EVES DENIES THAT
SHE HAS BEEN PROMISED THAT.
ALSO QUITE POSSIBLY JANET
ECKER IF - PUTTING A WOMAN
IN THAT ROLE RIGHT NOW
SENDS A BIG, BIG SIGNAL.
THEY NEED TO ADDRESS A
GENDER BALANCE PROBLEM
THAT THEY'VE GOT
AMONGST THEIR VOTERS,
AND ALTHOUGH IT IS
LARGELY A CEREMONIAL ROLE,
IT'S SEEN IN THE PUBLIC -
IT SOUNDS BIG, YOU KNOW,
DEPUTY PREMIER.

Rob says STRENGTHS WOULD BE IN THE
HOUSE WHEN Mr. EVES IS OUT,
PERHAPS, PLAYING THE
ODD ROUND OF GOLF,
WHICH HE MIGHT WANT
TO DO SOMETIME DURING
HIS TENURE AS PREMIER, TO
HAVE ECKER IN THE HOUSE
AS HIS BACKUP.
SHE'S KIND OF THE
HERB GRAY OF QUEEN'S PARK,
CAN SORT OF FOG THE
OPPOSITION WITH ALL KINDS
OF NON-ANSWERS, AND THAT'S
HER REAL STRENGTH.
SO, YES, CEREMONIAL,
I AGREE WITH THAT.
BUT ALSO SHE'S
DYNAMITE IN THE HOUSE.

Steve says I THINK WHAT
WE'RE SAYING, THOUGH,
IS THAT JIM FLAHERTY, WHO
USED TO HAVE THE JOB,
DEFINITELY WON'T
HAVE IT COME MONDAY.

Rob says I DON'T KNOW,
I WOULDN'T WANT TO LAY A
COUPLE OF LOONIES ON THAT.

Susanna says ONE OTHER POSSIBILITY
FOR THAT IS BOB RUNCIMAN,
BECAUSE HE'S KIND OF AN
ELDER STATESMAN AND
HE DESERVES A BIG
REWARD BECAUSE
HE HELPED TO PUSH
Mr. EVES TO RUN.

Steve says HELPED TO PUSH?
HE TOLD HIM HE WAS IN
BEFORE KNEW IT HIMSELF -
Mr. EVES, EXCUSE ME.

Susanna says THERE'S DEBATE OVER
WHETHER HE MEANT
TO SAY THAT, AND HE MIGHT
WELL HAVE ACTUALLY.

Rob says I THINK BOB RUNCIMAN
WANTS TO BE BACK
AS SOLICITOR GENERAL.
HE SPOKE A COUPLE OF
YEARS AGO WHEN HE LEFT
THE PORTFOLIO TO THE
ONTARIO PROVINCIAL POLICE
ASSOCIATION, HAD
TEARS IN HIS EYES,
SAYING GOODBYE
TO THESE COPS.
HE LOVED THAT
PORTFOLIO.
HE LOVED BEING
THE TOP COP.
IT SORT OF FIT THE TAG LINE,
YOU KNOW, MAD DOG RUNCIMAN.
HE LOVED THAT AREA AND I
THINK HE'D LIKE TO GO
BACK TO IT, BUT YOU KNOW,
AGAIN, LOYAL TO Mr. EVES,
HE'LL SERVE IN
WHATEVER CAPACITY.

Susanna says AND THE POLICE LOVED HIM
IN THAT ROLE, AS WELL.
AND OVER THE
LAST DAY OR TWO,
THAT IS THE PORTFOLIO I
HEARD THE MOST FOR HIM,
WAS THAT HE WOULD
GO BACK TO SOLGEN.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT A GUY
WHO CHOSE NOT TO RUN THIS
TIME, THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT
RUNNING, DECIDED NOT TO GO.
IN FACT, DELIVERED HIS WHOLE
ORGANIZATION TO Mr. EVES,
AND THAT IS CHRIS HODGSON
FROM CENTRAL ONTARIO.
WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT
WHERE HE'S GOING ON MONDAY?

Susanna says WELL, EVERYTHING
I HEAR IS THAT,
OF COURSE HE WANTS TO
STAY IN MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS,
AND WITH SUPERBUILD ADDED
IN, WHICH IS THE ENTIRE
CAPITAL BUDGET FOR THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.
THAT'S PRETTY NICE.

Steve says AS CARL
SAGAN WOULD SAY,
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS
AND BILLIONS.

Susanna continues ALONG WITH COMMUNITY
RE-INVESTMENT FUND,
AND THOSE MUNICIPAL
BONDS THAT Mr. EVES
WAS TOUTING DURING
THE CAMPAIGN.
I THINK THEY'D LIKE THEM
OVER THERE, AS WELL.
SO EVERYBODY SEEMS TO
THINK THAT HE WILL STAY
IN MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS.
ALTHOUGH I MUST TELL YOU
THAT THERE IS A FIGHT
OVER THAT SUPERBUILD FUND.
FINANCE DOES NOT
WANT TO LET IT GO.

Steve says NO KIDDING.

Rob says I THINK LONG TERM, IT'S
EVERYBODY'S BELIEF
THAT HE WILL BE A
CANDIDATE THE NEXT TIME,
WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS.
AND IT'S GREAT ADVANTAGE
TO BE OUT THERE
IN THE HINTERLAND TALKING
TO ALL THESE TORY MAYORS,
DROPPING SOME CHEQUES FOR
SEWER AND WATER PROJECTS,
AND SAYING, WINK,
WINK, NUDGE, NUDGE,
REMEMBER ME THE NEXT
TIME I'M RUNNING.

Steve says GIVE US A NAME THAT
OUR VIEWERS MIGHT NOT
NECESSARILY KNOW, BECAUSE HE
OR SHE WASN'T A BIG STAR
IN THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT, BUT
Mr. EVES MAY WANT TO REWARD
HIM OR HER FOR A JOB WELL
DONE DURING THE LEADERSHIP.
PULL A NAME OUT.

Susanna says FRANK MAZZILLI,
ALSO CARL DeFARIA,
BOTH BROUGHT IN A LOT
OF VOTES FOR HIM
DURING THE CAMPAIGN
FROM THEIR RIDINGS.

Steve says MAZZILLI, A
FORMER COP FROM LONDON.

Susanna says THAT'S RIGHT.
THAT IS ANOTHER NAME
I HEAR SOMETIMES
FOR SOLICITOR
GENERAL, AS WELL.
SOME PEOPLE THINK
MAYBE TINA MOLINARI
WILL GO IN THE CABINET.

Steve says SHE SUPPORTED
TONY CLEMENT.

Susanna continues SUPPORTED TONY CLEMENT,
AND THAT WOULD BE
A SIGNAL OF UNITY.
ALSO SHE'S A
WOMAN AND ITALIAN.

Rob says JERRY OUELLETTE IS
ANOTHER NAME TO WATCH.
HE'S WON BACK-TO-BACK
ELECTIONS IN OSHAWA,
FORMER NDP STRONGHOLD.
ED BROADBENT'S SEAT, FOR
EXAMPLE, MIKE BRIOS.
HE BROUGHT IN A LOT
OF VOTES, AS WELL.
APPARENTLY, YOU KNOW, THE
HUNTING-AND-FISHING SET,
WHICH WAS IMPORTANT TO
Mr. EVES BECAUSE
HE SWEPT THE NORTH EXCEPT
FOR ONE RIDING, SUDBURY.

Steve says IN OUR LAST 30 SECONDS,
15 TO EACH OF YOU,
IS THIS THE FINAL
CABINET SHUFFLE BEFORE
THE NEXT ELECTION, OR IS
THERE ANOTHER STILL TO COME?

Susanna says I THINK THERE'S
ANOTHER ONE TO COME.
THERE IS A DEBATE
ABOUT THAT.
THERE'S A THOUGHT THAT
THIS MAY BE ONE FOR NOW
AND THEN IN AUGUST THERE
WOULD BE AN ELECTION CABINET.
I THINK IT'S NOT,
BECAUSE HE WOULD
HAVE TO ASK PEOPLE IF
THEY'RE RUNNING AGAIN.
I DON'T THINK PEOPLE
KNOW AT THIS POINT.

Rob says THERE'LL BE ANOTHER
ONE, GUARANTEED.

Steve asks GUARANTEED?
I HEARD IT HERE
FIRST FROM ROBERT FISHER.

Rob says AND BILL DAVIS IS GOING
TO RUN FEDERALLY IN 1984.
YOU HEARD IT HERE.
[laughing]

Steve says OKAY, SO YOU'RE NOT
1000 PERCENT PERFECT,
BUT YOU'RE PRETTY
GOOD FOR US.
OKAY, SUSANNA KELLEY,
ROBERT FISHER, AS ALWAYS,
THANKS FOR THE 411
FROM THE BACKROOMS
AND WE'LL SEE YOU
MONDAY NIGHT.
OKAY.
THANK YOU.

A clip shows Steve sitting at the table in the studio.

He says BESIDES GETTING READY
TO NAME A NEW CABINET,
THE PREMIER DESIGNATE AND
HIS TRANSITION TEAM
HAVE BEEN HARD AT WORK
GETTING READY TO GOVERN.
WITH JUST ONE WEEKEND LEFT
UNTIL HE BECOMES ONTARIO'S
23RD PREMIER, WHAT'S
ERNIE EVES UP TO EXACTLY?
WATCH.

Several clips show Ernie Eves shaking hands with people at a park, and talking with other politicians.
[crowd chatter]

Steve says THE CHANGING OF
THE GUARD HAS BEGUN.
HE MAY NOT YET HAVE A
SEAT IN THE LEGISLATURE,
BUT PREMIER DESIGNATE ERNIE
EVES IS ALREADY MAKING
HIS MOVE INTO THE
PREMIER'S OFFICE.
A TRANSITION TEAM IS AT WORK
SHEPHERDING IN THE CHANGES.
A KEY MOVE SO FAR IS EVES'
LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN MANAGER
ANDREW HODGSON AS THE NEW
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
OF THE PARTY.

A clip shows a man in his early fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair, and wearing a black suit, white shirt, spotted blue tie, and glasses.
A caption reads "Hershel Ezrin. Former Aide to David Peterson."

Hershel says TRUST
BECOMES A VERY IMPORTANT
IN THE NATURE OF THE
PEOPLE THAT YOU CHOOSE,
BUT I THINK MOST OF THE
PEOPLE ON THIS GROUP ARE
MORE APPARATCHIKS, PEOPLE
WHO UNDERSTAND HOW
THE SYSTEM WORKS, WHO HAVE
BEEN DEEPLY INVOLVED
IN GOVERNMENT ITSELF.
I THINK THAT'S QUITE
DIFFERENT THAN BRINGING IN
SOME PEOPLE IN SOME
GOVERNMENTS WHERE THERE'S
BEEN TRANSITION WHO
ARE THINKERS ABOUT
DOING THINGS IN A
TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY.

Several clip shows Ernie Eves talking with people, and giving a press conference.

Steve says THE TRANSITION
TEAMS HAS ITS HANDS FULL.
IT MUST PUT TOGETHER
A NEW CABINET.
HEAL RIFTS CAUSED BY A VERY
DIVISIVE LEADERSHIP RACE
AND WRITE A THRONE SPEECH

A clip shows Ernie Eves in a press conference. He is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair neatly combed back. He is wearing a black suit and a pale blue shirt.
A caption reads "Ernie Eves. Premier Designate."

He says WE DO WANT TO HAVE AN
ORDERLY TRANSITION FROM ONE
GOVERNMENT TO THE NEXT.
THAT MAY SOUND SILLY
BEING IN THE SAME PARTY,
BUT THERE ARE AN
AWFUL LOT OF ISSUES.
YOU WANT TO SEE WHAT MEMBERS
OF THE PREMIER STAFF
WANT TO STAY, WHAT ONES WANT
TO LEAVE, HOW YOU WANT TO,
PERHAPS, RESTRUCTURE
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE.
YOU HAVE TO BE BROUGHT UP
TO SPEED ON ALL THE ISSUES.

Steve says THE MOST
PRESSING ISSUE?
THE POTENTIAL 3 TO 5
BILLION DOLLARS BUDGET SHORTFALL.
BEYOND THIS, THE LIST INCLUDES
PRIMARY HEALTHCARE REFORM,
WATER REGULATIONS, THE
EDUCATION FUNDING FORMULA,
AND THERE'S THE NEED FOR
THE NEW LEADER
TO
DISTINGUISH HIMSELF FROM
HIS PREDECESSOR BEFORE
THE NEXT ELECTION EXPECTED
TO COME A YEAR FROM NOW.

A clip shows Ernie Eves on a stage with Mike Harris.
[applause]

Hershel says Mr. EVES HAS GOT TO BE
BOTH SUBTLE AND BOLD.
THAT'S A VERY
HARD JOB TO DO,
BUT, IN A WAY, HE'S ALREADY
SIGNALED THAT HE WANTS
TO BE A BIT OF A CHAIRMAN
OF THE BOARD STYLE PREMIER
IN TERMS OF THE WAY HE'S
SETTING UP HIS OWN OFFICE,
THE PEOPLE THAT
HE'S BRINGING IN,
HOW HE WANTS TO
ORGANIZE THINGS.
SOME REAL DIFFERENCES
WITH THE WAY
THAT Mr. HARRIS RAN IT.

Back in the studio, Steve sits at the table with 3 guests and a TV.

Steve says OUR GUEST THIS WEEK:
A VETERAN OF SEVERAL
PC TRANSITIONS, HUGH SEGAL
WORKED AS A SENIOR AIDE
TO TWO FORMER CONSERVATIVE
FIRST MINISTERS,
WILLIAM DAVIS AND
BRIAN MULRONEY.
HE JOINS US ON THE
LINE FROM KINGSTON.
HI, HUGH, WELCOME BACK TO
OUR LITTLE TVO GANG HERE.
IT'S GREAT TO
BE BACK.
PLEASURE TO
HAVE YOU.
YOU KNOW THIS
GROUP OVER HERE.
HERE'S MAC PENNEY FROM
NATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS.
RICHARD MAHONEY FROM
BOREALIS CAPITAL AND
THE PAST PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO GRITS,
AND RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER.
HUGH, BEYOND THE SORT
OF OBVIOUS ANSWER,
WHICH IS TO SAY, I GUESS,
HE'S PUT THE FINISHING
TOUCHES ON THE CABINET, CAN
YOU TELL US WHAT YOU BELIEVE
THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION
ERNIE EVES HAS ON HIS PLATE
THIS WEEKEND AS HE GETS
READY TO BE SWORN IN
AS PREMIER ON MONDAY.

Hugh Segal is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short balding brown hair, and is wearing a brown suit, white shirt, and spotted dark blue tie.
A caption reads "Hugh Segal. Former PC Advisor. Kingston."

He says I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT
DECISION ANY PREMIER
WHO IS REPLACING AN EXISTING
LEADER IN THE SAME PARTY,
18 MONTHS BEFORE
AN ELECTION IS,
HOW WILL HE DISTINGUISH
HIMSELF IN A FASHION THAT
INDICATES TO THE PROVINCE
THAT HE IS RUNNING
A DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT WITH
SOME VERY CLEAR PRIORITIES.
KEEPING THE BEST OF WHAT
WAS THERE BEFOREHAND,
BUT DOING HIS OWN THING
WITH A NEW CABINET AND
NOT NECESSARILY JUST BEING
SON-OF IN THE CONTEXT
OF GOING FORWARD.
I THINK THAT POINT OF
DISTINCTION IS VERY,
VERY SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE
IF THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY,
ANY POLITICAL PARTY THAT
MAKES A CHANGE WHILE IT'S
IN OFFICE, DOES NOT BECOME
THE PROXY FOR CHANGE
THAT PEOPLE WANT TO SEE IN
SOME MEASURE IN PUBLIC POLICY,
THEN OPPOSITION PARTIES
BENEFIT FROM THAT AND
HIS PRIMARY PURPOSE, THE
ONLY WAY ANY TRANSITION
IS DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN
ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL,
IS IF THE SUBSEQUENT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION
IS ACTUALLY WON BY
THE GOVERNING PARTY.

Steve says IN FACT, THAT'S THE QUESTION
I HEAR ALL THE TIME NOW,
IS ERNIE EVES GOING TO
BE SORT OF GEORGE HENRY,
FRANK MILLER, OR IS
GOING TO BE LES FROST,
JOHN ROBARTS,
BILL DAVIS?
IS HE THE GUY WHO COMES
IN AND SORT OF HANGS ON
FOR A FEW MONTHS
AND THEN THAT'S IT?
OR DOES HE GET TO KEEP
THE KEYS TO THE CAR
AND KEEP IT GOING?
BUT TO THAT END, WHAT'S
THE KEY DECISION
TO FOLLOW UP ON
WHAT YOU JUST SAID,
THAT HE NEEDS TO
MAKE THIS WEEKEND
TO ENSURE WHAT YOU
JUST SAID TRANSPIRES?

Hugh says I WOULD THINK THE WAY HE
STRUCTURES THE CABINET,
WHICH IS A BIT DIFFERENT
FROM WHO HE ACTUALLY DECIDES
TO PUT IN THE VARIOUS
POSITIONS, THE WAY HE
STRUCTURES IT, THE WAY
THAT SIGNALS HIS SENSE
OF PRIORITIES ABOUT WHAT'S
IMPORTANT IN ONTARIO TODAY,
HOW THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM
WHAT WAS IMPORTANT
IN '95 OR '99.
THAT IS THE MOST CRITICAL
THING AND I WOULD THINK
THAT THE STRUCTURE
OF THE CABINET,
AS IT EMERGES IN TERMS
OF HOW MINISTRY ISSUES
ARE GROUPED AND PRIORITIES ARE
ASSOCIATED WITH EACH OTHER
UNDER VARIOUS MINISTERS
WILL GIVE A CLEAR SIGNAL
OF WHAT IT IS HE HAS
IN MIND AND WHERE
HE WANTS TO
TAKE ONTARIO.

Steve says RUTH, I WANT TO ASK
YOU A QUESTION,
'CAUSE YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE
AROUND HERE WHO'S ACTUALLY
HAD TO SIT BY THE PHONE ON
SUNDAY WAITING TO FIND OUT
WHAT PORTFOLIO YOU
WERE GOING TO GET.
TELL US WHAT SUNDAY WILL
BE LIKE FOR THIS GROUP
OF CAUCUS MEMBERS WHO ARE
WONDERING WHETHER
THEY ARE IN OR
WHETHER THEY'RE OUT.

Ruth Grier is in her seventies, has short white hair, and is wearing a brown blazer over a yellow shirt.
A caption reads "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

She says IT WILL BE VERY
FRAUGHT WITH TENSION.
I UNDERSTAND THAT Mr. EVES
HAS BEEN KEEPING HIS CHOICES
CLOSE TO HIS VEST AND SO I
SUSPECT MANY OF THEM
DON'T KNOW FOR SURE
WHETHER THEY'LL BE IN
AND WHAT THEY'LL
BE GETTING.
AND IT'S NOT A PLEASANT
FEELING TO HAVE AND YOU KNOW
YOU HAVE TWO CHOICES IF
YOU'RE OFFERED A CABINET
POSITION; YOU CAN SAY
YES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH,
PREMIER, I'D BE
DELIGHTED.
OR YOU CAN SAY NO,
IN WHICH CASE THERE
ISN'T A FALLBACK
POSITION.

Steve asks NO ONE EVER REALLY
SAYS NO, DO THEY?

Ruth says NO, I DON'T THINK
SO, BUT I MEAN,
I REMEMBER GOING THROUGH
SOME ANGST AT ONE POINT
AND SAYING, OH, WHAT WILL
I DO IF HE OFFERS ME X?
AND IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME,
YOU EITHER TAKE IT OR YOU SAY
NO, THANK YOU, AND THEN
YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING.

Steve says TELL US ABOUT THAT, HUGH,
IS IT REALLY VIABLE
FOR ANYBODY TO SAY TO
ERNIE EVES, YOU KNOW WHAT,
I REALLY HAD MY HEART
SET ON SOMETHING ELSE.
COULD I PLEASE
HAVE THAT INSTEAD?
DO YOU DO THAT?

Hugh says I THINK RUTH IS
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT
THAT THAT IS
USUALLY NOT WHAT IS
AN APPROPRIATE
RESPONSE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE
TRANSITION COMMITTEE
HAS BEEN DOING ITS HOMEWORK,
AND I AM LED TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THE PREMIER HAS MET WITH
CERTAINLY THOSE PEOPLE
WHO RAN AGAINST HIM,
PREMIER DESIGNATE
HAS MET WITH THOSE PEOPLE
WHO RAN AGAINST HIM
FOR THE LEADERSHIP.
SO HE HAS A STRONG
SENSE, I'M SURE,
OF WHAT THEIR
PREFERRED OPTIONS ARE.
I THINK THERE'S A
MANAGEMENT ISSUE HERE.
ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE TO
PICK THE BEST PEOPLE
FOR THE JOB AND
PUT MERIT FIRST.
ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU MUST
MAINTAIN PARTY UNITY
AND THE COHERENCE OF THE
GOVERNMENT REGARDLESS
OF THE PARTY IN POWER.
IT'S AN ABSOLUTE
RESPONSIBILITY.
AND IF TOO MANY
PEOPLE, FOR EXAMPLE,
OF THE CALIBRE OF RUTH HAD
SAID TO A PREVIOUS PREMIER,
NO, THANK YOU, THEN THE
PREMIER HAS A PROBLEM HIMSELF.
SO IT'S NOT JUST A
ONE-SIDED AFFAIR.
IT IS A BALANCED AFFAIR
AND YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN
THAT BALANCE THROUGH
THE PROCESS.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT, OF COURSE,
WILLIAM DAVIS DID
WHEN HE TOOK OVER
IN 1971 WAS HE
STOPPED SPADINA.
EVERYBODY KNOWS, THAT'S
CODE IN TORONTO FOR,
THERE WAS AN EXPRESSWAY
GOING TO COME THROUGH
THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY
THAT HE STOPPED TO SHOW
THAT HE WAS KIND OF A
PROGRESSIVE, MODERN,
URBAN GUY WHO LIKED PUBLIC
TRANSIT INSTEAD OF A SUBURBANITE
FROM BRAMPTON
WHO DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
THE CONCERNS OF CITIES.
PEOPLE ARE
WONDERING, I THINK,
WHETHER Mr. EVES HAS SOME
KIND OF BOLD SIMILAR MOVE
IN HIS HIP POCKET
READY TO PULL OUT.
MAC PENNEY, HEARD
ANYTHING?

Mac Penney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with very short gray hair. He is wearing a black suit, black shirt, and black tie.
A caption reads "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

He says NO, I'VE HEARD A
LOT OF SPECULATION.

Steve says LET'S HEAR SOME.

Mac says I'M NOT EVEN SURE I'D
CALL IT SPECULATION.
I THINK IT'S A LOT OF
WISHFUL THINKING ON THE PART
OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE TAKEN
VERY STRONG POSITIONS
AGAINST SOME OF THE
INITIATIVES THAT WERE
INITIATED UNDER Mr. HARRIS'
TERM IN OFFICE,
THE HYDRO ONE
IPO, FOR EXAMPLE.
THERE'S SOME SPECULATION
THAT THAT COULD BE THERE.

Steve asks WHEN YOU SAY THAT
COULD BE THERE,
YOU MEAN HE MIGHT
PULL THE PLUG ON IT?

Mac says YES, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK
THAT'S WISHFUL THINKING.
IN THE ENVIRONMENT
AREA, THERE'S SOME THOUGHT
THAT THE PROVINCE MAY
REPATRIATE WATER TESTING -
I DON'T THINK THAT
WOULD BE THE CASE.
I THINK LIKELY WE'D SEE
Mr. EVES CARRY THROUGH ON
CAMPAIGN COMMITMENTS HE MADE
WITH RESPECT TO SAFE WATER
INSTITUTE IN WALKERTON
AS BEING, YOU KNOW,
A MORE LIKELY SCENARIO.
THOSE ARE THE TWO AREAS.
ENERGY AND THE
ENVIRONMENT.
MAINLY I THINK
BECAUSE, STEVE,
THEY'RE AREAS WHERE WE KNOW
THERE ARE BIG ISSUES COMING.
ANOTHER AREA IS LABOUR.
WILL HE COME IN AND TRY
TO PUSH FOR A VERY QUICK
SETTLEMENT TO
THE OPSEU STRIKE.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK
THAT'S THE CASE.
I THINK IF OPSEU'S EXPECTING
TO GET A PRESENT ON APRIL 15TH,
THEY'RE GOING
TO BE DISAPPOINTED.

Steve says SO WHAT YOU SEEM TO BE
SAYING IS DON'T LOOK FOR –

Mac says WELL, IT'S NOT GOING TO
BE ONE OF THOSE THREE.
RICHARD MAY HAVE
ANOTHER LIST.

Richard is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair. he is wearing a purple suit, pale blue shirt, and beige tie.
A caption reads "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says I SUSPECT HE WON'T
DO ANY OF THEM.
I SUSPECT THAT THERE'S LOTS
OF WORK IN TRANSITION,
BUT THERE'LL BE VERY LITTLE
DONE THAT MEETS THE TEST
THAT HUGH SEGAL SET OUT
TO SEE IF THERE
REALLY IS CHANGE.
BUT I GUESS FIRST OF ALL,
ON THE EDUCATION SIDE,
THERE'S TWO THINGS
HE COULD DO.
HE COULD CANCEL THE PRIVATE
SCHOOL TUITION TAX CREDIT AND
REDIRECT THAT 500 MILLION
INTO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

Steve says WHICH AGAIN
HE SAID HE WON'T DO.

Richard repeats WHICH HE SAID
HE WON'T DO.
OR HE COULD CHANGE THE
FUNDING FORMULA.

Steve says WHICH HE
SAID HE WILL DO.

Richard says WHICH HE SAID
HE MIGHT DO.
HE SAID HE MIGHT DO,
BUT THAT'S COMPLICATED.
ON THE HYDRO ONE
SIDE, AS MAC SAYS,
THEY HAVE NO MANDATE
TO SELL HYDRO ONE.
THERE'S BEEN NO
PUBLIC CONSULTATION.
PEOPLE THINK THAT
THEIR HYDRO RATES ARE
GOING TO GO UP.
THERE'S A LOT OF PUBLIC
CONCERN ABOUT IT.
HE COULD EASILY SIGNAL
CHANGE BY DOING THAT,
BUT I DOUBT HE WILL.
AND THE LAST THING
HE COULD DO IS HE COULD
CANCEL OR DELAY THE
CORPORATE TAX CUT
AND PUT THAT MONEY INTO
HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION,
BUT I DOUBT HE'LL
DO THAT EITHER.

Ruth says SORRY, THERE ISN'T
ANYTHING AS SYMBOLIC
AS SPADINA, WHICH TALKED
ABOUT URBAN ISSUES,
TRANSIT, A WHOLE
LOT OF THINGS.
ALL OF THESE ARE POLICY
POSITIONS THAT COULD BE CHANGED,
BUT THEY DON'T GIVE
YOU SOMETHING REALLY
THAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN HARRIS.

Steve says HUGH, YOU WANT TO
WEIGH IN ON THAT
AND TELL US
WHETHER YOU AGREE?
YOU WERE THERE IN '71.

Hugh says I DON'T HAVE ANY
GREATER INSIGHT THAN
OUR COLLEAGUES ON THE
PANEL, EXCEPT TO SAY THIS.
IF I WERE MAKING A LIST, I
WOULD ADD TO THE ITEMS
THAT WERE ALREADY LISTED.
THE WHOLE ISSUE OF THE FINAL
DETERMINATION WITH RESPECT
TO THE MORAINE, WHICH I
THINK IS A CRITICAL QUESTION
AND WHETHER SOME ANXIETY
THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S
COMMITMENT MAY NOT
BE QUITE AS FIRM
AS WAS OTHERWISE
INDICATED.
I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED
IF THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE
WHO ARE SUGGESTING THAT
ONE COULD RE-LOOK AT
TEACHER TESTING, NOT TO DO
AWAY WITH THE PRINCIPLE
OR THE PRACTICE, BUT
PERHAPS TO SEE IF THAT
COULD BE MODIFIED
IN SOME FASHION.
CLEARLY HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION
ARE THE CRITICAL POINTS.
LET'S BE CLEAR, THIS
IS UNLIKE THE DAVIS/MILLER
TRANSITION BECAUSE THE DAVIS
GOVERNMENT WAS PROFOUNDLY
MORE POPULAR THAN THE
HARRIS GOVERNMENT IS TODAY,
AND Mr. MILLER BEGAN WITH
FAR MORE POPULARITY IN TERMS
OF A LEAD IN THE POLLS
THAN Mr. EVES DOES,
SO HE DOES HAVE TO LOOK AT
CRITICAL AREAS, I THINK,
LIKE HEALTHCARE AND
EDUCATION WHERE
THE PUBLIC HAS SOME
LEGITIMATE CONCERNS,
AND WHERE HE HAS THE OPTION
TO MAKE SOME POLICY CHANGES
WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT
TODAY'S REQUIREMENTS SEEM TO BE.
WHETHER HE'LL DO THAT
OR NOT, I HAVE NO IDEA.

Richard says STEVE, THAT'S A VERY
INTERESTING POINT
THAT HUGH BRINGS
UP ON THE MORAINE.
I THINK WE'VE ALL
SORT OF REALIZED –

Steve says OAK RIDGES MORAINE.

Richard continues OAK RIDGES MORAINE, THAT
THERE IS A BIG ANNOUNCEMENT
THERE THAT WAS WIDELY
HERALDED BY THE GOVERNMENT,
AND WE'VE ALL SORT OF COME
TO REALIZE THAT THERE'S
A LOT LESS TO THAT AGREEMENT
IN TERMS OF PROTECTION
OF THE OAK RIDGES MORAINE AND
THE WATERSHED IN TORONTO
THAN ACTUALLY
MEETS THE EYE.
HE'S CAMPAIGNING WITH THE
HORSEY SET UP THERE
IN CALEDON IN A RIDING WHERE
THE OAK RIDGES MORAINE RUNS
RIGHT THROUGH, AND THE
NIAGARA ESCARPMENT, AS WELL,
AS RUTH POINTED OUT IN
THIS PROGRAM BEFORE.
HE MIGHT, IF HE ACTUALLY DID
SOMETHING ON THE MORAINE,
HELP HIMSELF IN TERMS OF
HIS OWN BY-ELECTION THERE.

Ruth says YES, EXCEPT THAT THE PROPONENT
OF THE MORAINE SOLUTION,
AS IT WAS PORTRAYED,
AND MANY PEOPLE AT THE TIME
SAID THE EMPEROR DIDN'T
HAVE HAS MANY CLOTHES
AS HE WAS SAYING
HE HAD.

Steve says FUNNY, ENVIRONMENTALISTS
WERE PRETTY SUPPORTIVE
WHEN THE ANNOUNCEMENT
WAS MADE.

Ruth says WE ALL RAISED
SOME QUESTIONS.
HOWEVER, THE POINT I WAS
GOING TO MAKE WAS THAT
THAT'S HODGSON'S ISSUE.
AND HODGSON HAS UP
TO NOW BEEN SAYING,
THE PLAN IS FINE.
AND SO I THINK IT WOULD
BE MORE DIFFICULT
FOR Mr. EVES TO GO
BACK ON THAT ONE.

Mac says I THINK,
HUGHIE, Mr. SEGAL –

Steve says YOU CAN CALL
HIM HUGHIE.
WE ALL KNOW
HE'S HUGHIE.
IT'S OKAY.

Mac continues I THINK THAT THE
PREMIER DESIGNATE
AND EVERYONE ELSE WOULD THINK
THAT THE NEXT ELECTION
WILL NOT BE WON OR
LOST ON THE MORAINE.
I THINK THE NEXT ELECTION'S
GOING TO BE WON OR LOST ON –

Ruth says HYDRO.

Mac continues HEALTHCARE, EDUCATION.
PROBABLY ON HEALTHCARE, AND
I THINK THAT HEALTHCARE
CONTINUES TO BE BY FAR
THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE
WITH THE PUBLIC GENERALLY.
AND IF THE GOVERNMENT
HAS TO DO SOMETHING -
I MEAN, THEY CAN'T FIGHT
A WAR ON HEALTHCARE,
EDUCATION AND
THE ENVIRONMENT.
THEY'VE GOT TO TAKE
SOMETHING OFF THE TABLE,
AND I THINK IF I'M Mr. EVES,
I'M TRYING TO DO SOMETHING
TO TAKE HEALTHCARE OFF
THE TABLE BECAUSE
THAT'S THE ONE THAT'S
THE THIRD RAIL ISSUE.

Steve asks HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

Mac says I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A
VERY EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION.

Steve says SPEND MORE MONEY.

Mac says I THINK IT'S GOING TO
BE A COSTLY SOLUTION.

Ruth says WE GET THE SIGNAL
ON THAT AS TO WHETHER
Mr. CLEMENT,
AS I HAVE SAID,
HE THOUGHT HE WOULD,
STAYS IN HEALTH.
AND THE NEW DEPUTY THAT
HAS BEEN APPOINTED
COMING FROM VANCOUVER HAS NOT
BEEN CLEAR IN HIS OPPOSITION
TO PUBLIC/PRIVATE
PARTNERSHIPS.
SO THE SIGNALS THAT WE'VE
HAD OVER THE TRANSITION
ARE NOT SIGNALING TO ME A
MAJOR CHANGE IN HEALTHCARE.
BUT I DISAGREE WITH MAC.
I THINK THE ISSUE
IS HYDRO.

Mac says BECAUSE HOWARD HAMPTON THINKS
YOU'LL AGREE WITH THAT.

Ruth says NO, I'VE BEEN ON THE
DOORSTEPS THE LAST COUPLE OF
WEEKS AS PART OF OUR
CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE SALE
OF HYDRO, AND EVERYBODY
IS AWARE OF IT.
THEY MAY BE CONFUSED, BUT
THEY ALL KNOW THAT THEY
THINK THEIR RATES ARE
GOING TO GO UP AND
THEY'RE GOING TO
BLAME THE GOVERNMENT.

Richard says THE CONFUSION'S UNLIKELY TO
WORK IN THE GOVERNMENT'S
BENEFIT ON
SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
I MEAN, THE
BOTTOM LINE.
ONE OTHER THING THAT WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT BEFORE THAT
Mr. EVES HAS TRIED TO SIGNAL
A CHANGE IS IN HIS RELATIONS
WITH THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
THERE ISN'T AN ONTARIAN,
WHETHER HE'S A CONSERVATIVE
OR A NEW DEMOCRAT
OR A LIBERAL,
WHO FAVOURS BOTH LEVELS
OF GOVERNMENT SQUABBLING.
I MEAN, IT'S
RIDICULOUS.
WE'RE ALL
TIRED OF IT.
AND HE MADE QUITE AN
EFFORT DURING THE CAMPAIGN
TO SAY HE WOULD DO IT
DIFFERENTLY, BRAGGING ABOUT
HIS CHILDHOOD RELATIONSHIP
WITH PAUL MARTIN,
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE,
AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
BY THE WAY, JUST
FOR THE RECORD,
WE CAN TELL PEOPLE
THAT THAT IS TOTAL
HYPERBOLE ON Mr.
EVES' PART.
THEY WERE NEVER CLOSE AS
FORMER MINISTERS OF FINANCE.
AS FAR AS I'M AWARE, THEY
DIDN'T KNOW EACH OTHER
GROWING UP IN WINDSOR.
[laughing]
I GUESS IT HELPS
WITH THE SPIN,
AND I THINK EVERYBODY
IN ONTARIO WOULD WELCOME
IF THE EVES' GOVERNMENT DID
SOMETHING LESS THAN
TORCH OTTAWA AND BLAME OTTAWA
FOR EVERY HEALTHCARE WOE.

Steve says IN OUR REMAINING MOMENTS,
I DO WANT TO GET
HUGH BACK IN HERE TO
TALK ABOUT WHAT
THE LIBERALS ARE
DOING RIGHT NOW.
HUGH, YOU'VE SEEN IT
FROM BOTH SIDES.
BOTH TRANSITION AS A
GOVERNMENT IN WAITING
AND THEN SITTING IN
OPPOSITION AND WAITING
FOR THE WHEEL TO TURN.
THE LIBERALS HAVE,
IT SEEMS TO ME,
TAKEN ON SOME REAL - IT'S
ALMOST EVOCATIVE OF THE
RAT PACK BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN
THERE WAS TOBIN AND COPPS
AND BOUDRIA - AND
WHO'S THE FOURTH ONE?
I CAN'T REMEMBER NOW.

Mac says MORE OF A MICKEY
MOUSE CLUB.

Ruth says TOBIN, WASN'T IT?

Hugh says BRIAN TOBIN WAS
THE FOURTH.

Steve continues THEY'RE GOING
AFTER Mr. EVES
ON THE PENSION
ISSUE PRETTY HARD.

Richard says NUNZIATA.

Steve says NUNZIATA, THAT WAS THE
FOURTH ONE, THANK YOU.

Ruth says THEY'RE BEHAVING
LIKE JIM FLAHERTY DID
IN THE LEADERSHIP.

[laughing]

Mac asks HAVING A HARD
TIME GETTING THE QUESTION OUT?

Steve says THANK YOU.
THE LIBERALS ARE TRYING
TO MAKE HAY, HUGH,
WITH THE PENSION ISSUE.
Mr. EVES, AS YOU KNOW, PUT
THE REPLACED PENSION SYSTEM
IN PLACE WHEN THEY GOT
RID OF THE OLD PENSIONS.
THEY BROUGHT IN RSPs.
HE GOT AN
800,000 DOLLARS PAY OFF.
THERE WERE QUESTIONS ASKED
ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT
HE TAPPED INTO IT.
THERE SEEMED TO BE A GREAT
DEAL OF LACK OF CLARITY
IN THE NEW PREMIER'S OFFICE AS
TO WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD.
HE'S GOT A SEVERANCE
PACKAGE WHICH HE'S KEEPING
APPARENTLY OR HASN'T SAID
THAT HE'S GIVING BACK YET.
I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER
OR NOT YOU THINK, HUGH,
THAT ALL OF THIS IS A
BOTHER FOR HIM AS
HE PREPARES TO
COME INTO OFFICE?

Hugh says WELL, LET ME SAY THIS.
I THINK IT IS
NORMATIVE TO ATTACK
A NEW PREMIER ON ANY
BASIS THAT ONE CAN.
I THINK SLICK WILLY WAS THE
TERM THAT WAS USED AGAINST
Mr. DAVIS WHEN HE WON THE
LEADERSHIP BY A VERY
SMALL MARGIN IN
'77 HE WON.
SO I THINK THAT'S NORMATIVE
PART OF THE PROCESS.
BUT I WOULD BE VERY
SURPRISED IF Mr. EVES,
OR ANY INCOMING PREMIER,
WOULD TAKE THESE ALLEGATIONS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE MOST
SERIOUS WAY AND SEEK
TO ADDRESS THEM VERY
EARLY ON IN A FASHION
THAT WAS DEEMED TO BE
APPROPRIATE.
I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING MORE
ABOUT THIS THAN WHAT
WE'VE ALL READ IN
THE NEWSPAPERS.
BUT I LOOKED AT THE AMOUNT
OF MONEY THAT THE VARIOUS
PEOPLE WHO HAD TO BE BOUGHT
OUT OF THE EXISTING
VERY RICH PROVINCIAL
PENSION PLAN FOR MLAs.
MPPs HAD TO BE PAID AND HOW
MUCH THEY WOULD HAVE EARNED
HAD THEY STAYED IN, AND IT
STRIKES ME THAT OVER ANY
10-YEAR PERIOD, THE PROVINCE
HAS SAVED A FAIR AMOUNT
OF MONEY BY GETTING RID OF THE
GOLD-PLATED PLAN WHICH WAS,
AFTER ALL, COMMITMENT
THAT GOVERNMENT MADE
BEFORE THEY WERE ELECTED.
SO HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK
ANSWERING QUESTIONS
AND ADDRESSING THOSE ISSUES
IN A STRAIGHTFORWARD
FASHION WILL BE VERY
MUCH IN HIS INTEREST.

Steve says CAN I ASK RICK WHY
THE LIBERALS ARE GOING
TO STRONG ON THIS ISSUE?
WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST
MINUTE, UNFORTUNATELY,
BUT WHY ARE THEY
GOING SO HARD ON IT?

Richard says A COUPLE OF REASONS.
FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T
DISPUTE HUGH'S THING.
WE HAVE A NEW
PREMIER AND OBVIOUSLY
HE'S GOT TO
CREATE AN IMPRESSION
WITH THE PUBLIC.
THE PREMIER DESIGNATE
HAS SAID VERY LITTLE
SINCE
BECOMING LEADER.
SO THERE'S BEEN A
BIG OPEN VOID THERE.

Steve says YOU'RE YOUR
GOING TO FILL IT.

Richard says AND WE'RE TRYING TO FILL
IT WITH SOME IMPORTANT
INFORMATION THAT WE THINK
THE VOTERS OF ONTARIO
SHOULD HAVE BEFORE THEY
MAKE THEIR CHOICE
IN THE NEXT
PROVINCIAL ELECTION.

Ruth says AND SUBSTANTIVE
POLICY ISSUES LIKE RENTAL
HOUSING, HYDRO, AND
WHAT'S HAPPENING
TO THE EDUCATION
SYSTEM.

Richard says UNLIKE THE NDP, WE'VE
ACTUALLY BEEN IN THE NEWS.

Mac says CAN'T AVOID
THE VOIDS.

Steve says LOOK HOW HUGH
SHAKES HIS HEAD.

Hugh says SO NICE TO BE A NON-PARTISAN
BEYOND ALL THIS NOW.
[laughing]

Steve says THANK YOU FOR LENDING A
TONE OF NON-PARTISANSHIP
TO THIS DISCUSSION,
HUGH SEGAL IN KINGSTON.
IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO
HAVE YOU WITH US AT OUR
4TH READING TABLE.

Hugh says GREAT
TO SEE, THANK YOU.

Steve continues AND THANKS TO THE
THREE OF YOU, AS WELL.
MAC, RUTH, RICK, DON'T SIT
BY THE PHONE THIS WEEKEND.
YOU DON'T NEED
TO THIS TIME.
THANKS VERY MUCH.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY.
THANK YOU.

Music Plays and the end credits roll.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority MMV.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 267