Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 266 | Apr 07, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve Paikin says THIS WEEK ON
FOURTH READING, OUT OF THE
FRYING PAN, INTO THE FIRE.
ERNIE EVES HITS THE
CAMPAIGN TRAIL ONCE AGAIN,
THIS TIME FOR A SEAT
IN THE LEGISLATURE.

Clips of Ernie Eves appear on screen as he gives speeches and campaigns. Ernie is in his fifties, has short, slicked back, gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and blue tie.

Now, Steve, Ruth, Richard, and Mac sit around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve says MAJOR CHANGES AT
QUEEN'S PARK THIS WEEK.
PREMIER MIKE HARRIS ANNOUNCING
HE'S STEPPING DOWN AS THE MPP
FOR NIPISSING AFTER 21 YEARS,
AND HE CALLED TOGETHER HIS
CABINET FOR THE LAST TIME
IN WHAT WAS DESCRIBED AS
AN EMOTIONAL WALK
DOWN MEMORY LANE.
WITHIN 24 HOURS, ERNIE EVES
ANNOUNCED HE'LL HIT THE
CAMPAIGN TRAIL IMMEDIATELY TO
WIN A SEAT IN THE LEGISLATURE.
THE PREMIER DESIGNATE CALLED
DOUBLE BI-ELECTIONS FOR MAY 2nd
IN NIPISSING, HARRIS'
RIDING, AND EVES' NEW RIDING
OF CHOICE,
DUFFERIN-PEEL-WELLINGTON-GREY.

MPP Mike Harris appears on screen in his fifties with short, side-parted gray hair in an office with people surrounding him.

Steve continues OUT WITH THE OLD...
IN WITH THE NEW.
[applause]

Steve continues MIKE HARRIS ATTENDED HIS FINAL
CABINET MEETING THIS WEEK.
PREMIER DESIGNATE, ERNIE EVES,
LAUNCHED HIS BID FOR A SEAT IN
THE LEGISLATURE.

Ernie Eves appears on screen shaking hands with voters after a speech. Ernie is in his fifties, has short gray, slicked back hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and dark tie.

Steve continues ON MAY 2nd, VOTERS IN
DUFFERIN-PEEL-WELLINGTON-GREY
WILL GO TO THE POLLS AS THEIR
MPP, DAVID TILSON, STEPS ASIDE
FOR THE NEW PREMIER.

MPP David Tilson appears on screen shaking hands with Ernie Eves at a podium. David is in his fifties, has short, side-parted, blondish gray hair, is clean-shaven, has glasses, and wears a gray suit, white shirt, and dark tie.

Greg Inwood appears on screen with a caption that reads "Greg Inwood, Ryerson Polytechnic University." Greg is in his forties, has short, side-parted brown hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a red jacket.

Greg says ERNIE EVES ACTUALLY
HAD A CHOICE OF MANY
RELATIVELY SAFE RIDINGS.
ONE WAS TO LOCATE HIMSELF
IN A CORE PART OF THE TORY
HEARTLAND TO SEND A SIGNAL
OF REASSURANCE TO CORE
SUPPORTERS THAT HE'S GOING TO
REPRESENT THEM PARTICULARLY.

Now Ernie appears in front of a podium giving a speech.

Erie says THEY CERTAINLY KNOW ME IN
HOWARD'S BUTCHER SHOP.
THEY CERTAINLY KNOW ME IN THE
LOCAL CANADIAN TIRE STORE.
THEY CERTAINLY KNOW ME
IN THE LOCAL BOOK STORE.
WE WERE IN THERE CHRISTMAS
SHOPPING THIS YEAR,
SO I DO FEEL AT HOME.
THEY SEEMED TO KNOW WHO
I AM LONG BEFORE THIS
EVENT OCCURRED.

Steve Paikin says PART OF THE
RIDING SITS IN ONE OF THE
TORY STRONGHOLDS, THE SO-CALLED
905 BELT OUTSIDE OF TORONTO.
IN THE '99 ELECTION, THE
TORIES TOOK THE SEAT WITH
65 PERCENT OF THE VOTE.

Ernie’s speech continues and he says I'M CERTAINLY NOT AFRAID TO
RUN ANYWHERE, BUT I DO BELIEVE
IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A PLACE
THAT YOU COME BACK TO EVERY
WEEKEND THAT YOU REPRESENT
IN THE LEGISLATURE.

Greg says WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS
WHAT TYPICALLY HAPPENS
IN BI-ELECTIONS IN
ONTARIO WHEN AN IMPORTANT
INDIVIDUAL LIKE A PREMIER IN
WAITING SEEKS A SEAT, IS THAT
IT'S PRETTY MUCH A FOREGONE
CONCLUSION AS TO THE OUTCOME.

In the studio, Steve says TWO BI-ELECTIONS, TWO
LEADERS, THREE PANELISTS READY
AND WILLING AND ABLE
TO DISCUSS IT ALL.
HERE ARE MAC PENNEY FROM
NATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS.
THANK YOU.
RICHARD
MAHONEY FROM...
WHAT THE HELL'S THE NAME
OF YOUR COMPANY AGAIN?
BOREALIS CAPITAL.
JUST WHEN I FINALLY
FIGURED OUT THE NAME
OF THE LAW FIRM, YOU GUYS
WENT SOMEWHERE ELSE.
YOU CAN SAY THAT, TOO,
IF YOU LIKE, YEAH.
A PAST PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO LIBERALS AND
THERE'S FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER, RUTH GRIER.
Mr. EVES, BY ALL ACCOUNTS,
HAD HIS CHOICE OF ANY NUMBER
OF DIFFERENT RIDINGS.
HE PROBABLY LOOKED AT A DOZEN
OF THEM AROUND THE PROVINCE,
AND HE SETTLED ON THIS ONE,
ABOUT AN HOUR AND CHANGE
NORTH OF TORONTO.
HOW COME?

Mac Penney appears on screen with a caption that reads "Mac Penney, Ontario PC Advisor." Mac is I his fifties, has short gray hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, blue shirt, and striped black and gold tie.

Mac says PROBABLY BECAUSE AN HOUR
AND CHANGE NORTH OF TORONTO.
AND, YOU KNOW, HE'S
PUTTING TOGETHER A TRANSITION
TEAM, GOING TO BE RUNNING A
BUDGET, GOING TO BE WRITING A
THRONE SPEECH, IT MAKES
SENSE TO BE RELATIVELY CLOSE
TO QUEEN'S PARK WHEN
YOU'RE DOING ALL THAT.
ALSO, I THINK THE REAL REASON
WAS TO MAKE IT A LOT EASIER
FOR GREG SORBARA TO GET
TO MORE TORY EVENTS.

Steve says BECAUSE HIS RIDING'S
NOT THAT FAR AWAY.

Mac says NOT ONLY THAT, BUT I
SEE GREG SORBARA AT MORE
TORY EVENTS THAN I DO
SOME TORIES, SO IT'S...
IT WAS REALLY, IT WAS VERY
CONSIDERATE OF US, I THOUGHT,
TO SPEAK ABOUT IT.

Steve says THAT'S KNOWN AS
OPPOSITION REACTION.
CAN YOU TELL
US, THERE IS...
I MEAN THE CONNECTION Mr. EVES
HAS TO THAT RIDING IS THAT HIS
LIFE PARTNER, AS HE CALLS HER,
ISABEL BASSETT, HAS A PLACE
THERE AND HE'S BEEN GOING
THERE I GUESS ON WEEKENDS FOR
AS LONG AS THEY HAVE BEEN
TOGETHER, AND HE FEELS
HE HAS A CONNECTION THERE.
BASED ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING
OF WHAT LOCALS WANT TO SEE
IN A CONNECTION TO A
CANDIDATE, IS THAT ENOUGH?

Mac says I THINK THAT WHAT LOCALS
WANT TO SEE IN CONNECTION
WITH A CANDIDATE IS
SOMEONE WHO CAN EFFECTIVELY
REPRESENT THEM AT QUEEN'S
PARK, AND I THINK THAT
THE PEOPLE OF
DUFFERIN-PEEL-WELLINGTON-GREY --

Steve says GOOD FOR YOU.

Mac says THINK I MISSED ONE,
ACTUALLY -- WILL BE VERY,
VERY WELL REPRESENTED AT
QUEEN'S PARK SHOULD THEY
CHOOSE TO ELECT THE PREMIER
DESIGNATE TO THAT POSITION.

Steve says NOW, THE QUESTION I WANT
TO ASK YOU IS, FEDERALLY,
THE LIBERALS ARE GIVING STEPHEN
HARPER A FREE RIDE INTO
THE FEDERAL HOUSE OF COMMONS.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PUT A
CANDIDATE UP AGAINST HIM,
BUT YOU'RE NOT TAKING
THAT TACK PROVINCIALLY.
YOU SAY YOU'RE GOING TO RUN
SOMEONE AND RUN SOMEONE HARD.
HOW COME?

Richard Mahoney appears on screen with a caption that reads "Richard Mahoney, Ontario Liberal Advisor." Richard is in his forties, has short, white hair, is clean-shaven, and wears a black suit, white shirt, and gray patterned tie.

Richard says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I
NOTICE THAT WHEN Mr. EVES
LISTED THE DIFFERENT
PLACES HE'D BEEN IN THE
RIDING, THE GROCERY STORE, THE
CANADIAN TIRE AND SO FORTH,
HE DIDN'T MENTION THE BARBER
SHOP, SO I GUESS HE...
[laughter]
I GUESS HE MUST GET HIS HAIR
CUT IN TORONTO OR WHATEVER.
FIRST OF ALL, I THINK
IT'S A BIT OF A MYTH,
BY THE WAY, THAT THIS THING
THAT HAS GROWN UP FEDERALLY OR
ANYWHERE ELSE, THAT THERE IS
A TRADITION OF NOT RUNNING
SOMEONE AGAINST
A PARTY LEADER.
CERTAINLY THERE'S NO TRADITION
IN ONTARIO THAT I'M AWARE OF
IN THAT REGARD, AND I THINK THE
PEOPLE OF THAT RIDING AND
EVERY RIDING IN THIS PROVINCE
DESERVE TO HAVE A CHOICE IN
ELECTIONS AND THEY DESERVE
TO HAVE A CHOICE IN...
DUFFERIN... PEEL...

Ruth says WELLINGTON-GREY.

Richard says THERE USED TO BE A
SIMCOE IN THERE WHEN I...
BUT, ANYWAYS, THEY
CERTAINLY DESERVE A
CHOICE AND THEY DESERVE A
CHOICE OF THREE PARTIES, SO...
NOW, THAT BEING SAID, AND I
WISH OUR CANDIDATE THE BEST
THERE, THAT RIDING HAS BEEN
VERY SAFELY HELD FOR A LONG
TIME BY THE TORIES, WITH ONE
SIGNIFICANT EXCEPTION, MY
FRIEND, MAVIS WILSON, WHO
WAS ELECTED THERE IN 1987.

Steve says SHE HELD THAT
RIDING FOR 3 YEARS.
OTHERWISE, FOR THE LAST
100, IT'S BEEN PC.

Richard says RIGHT, AND,
YOU KNOW, 60-ODD PERCENT
OF THE VOTE...
Steve says 65 PERCENT OF
THE VOTE LAST TIME.
THE INTERESTING CHOICE WAS,
OF COURSE, NOT RUNNING IN
NIPISSING, WHERE I
THINK Mr. EVES' POLLING
WOULD HAVE SHOWN THAT HE
WOULD HAVE HAD A TOUGH TIME
WINNING THAT SEAT.
SO YOU SAY, WELL WHY WOULDN'T
HE WANTS TO RUN THERE?
WELL, PART OF THAT RIDING
ACTUALLY ENCOMPASSES HIS OLD
RIDING, SO THAT WOULD HAVE
BEEN A MORE NATURAL PLACE
FOR ERNIE EVES TO RUN.

Steve says I THINK THEIR EXPLANATION
IS, IT'S TRUE, ONE THIRD
OF THE GEOGRAPHY IS
PART OF HIS FORMER RIDING,
BUT IT'S ALL PARKLAND.
THERE ARE NOT VERY
MANY PEOPLE THERE.
SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE
BROUGHT MANY OF HIS
FORMER CONSTITUENTS
TO HIS NEW RIDING.
WHICH MAY HAVE
BEEN A FACTOR.
WHAT DO YOU THINK
OF ALL THIS?

Ruth Grier appears on screen with a caption that reads "Ruth Grier, Former NDP Cabinet Minister." Ruth is in her sixties, has short, side-parted white hair, and wears a red blazer.

Ruth says WELL, I THINK THAT MAC
PUTS A WHOLE LOT OF LOCAL
'ISMS' ON THE DECISION.
THE DECISION FOR A
NEW LEADER IS WHERE
CAN I MOST EASILY,
SAFELY GET ELECTED?
I MISSED THAT ONE.
THAT
ONE I MISSED.
THAT WAS WHAT DETERMINED
THIS PARTICULAR RIDING,
I CAN ASSURE YOU.
HE HAD NEVER SAID HE WAS
GOING TO RUN IN NIPISSING.
I THINK WE ALL MADE
ASSUMPTIONS THAT HE MIGHT.
AND I'M WITH RICHARD.
I THINK THAT THE LIBERALS CAME
UNCOMFORTABLY CLOSE THERE IN
THE LAST GENERAL ELECTION AND
THEIR CANDIDATE HAS BEEN
IN THE FIELD.
IT'S NOT AN OBVIOUS CHOICE,
SO HE'S GOING TO BE IN PEEL,
AND YOU KNOW, WHAT I REGRET
IS THAT DAVID TILSON,
THE OUTGOING MEMBER, IS ONE
OF THE LEAST REVOLUTIONARY
OF THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTIONARIES.
HE HAS SOME COMMON SENSE AND
HAS DONE A GOOD JOB THERE.
SO HE'LL BE MISSED, AND

Richard says THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHERS
THAT I WOULDN'T
HAVE MISSED AS MUCH.
RICK.
AND AS WATCHERS OF
FOURTH READING TRIVIA
WILL KNOW, PEEL HAS HAD
PREMIERS IN THAT RIDING BEFORE.
ISN'T THAT RIGHT, STEVE?

Steve says THAT IS, IN FACT,
CORRECT, RICHARD.
AND WE CAN NAME THEM
AT ANOTHER OCCASION.

Mac says WHAT WERE THEIR
MIDDLE NAMES THOUGH?
[laughing]

Steve says IN FACT, I DID TALK
TO DAVID TILSON JUST AN
HOUR AGO ABOUT GOING.
HE DID NOT WANT TO DO THIS.
HE HAD EVERY INTENTION
OF RUNNING AGAIN.
HE DID NOT OFFER HIS SEAT TO
Mr. EVES AND INSISTS THERE'S
NO QUID PRO QUO FOR
HIS STEPPING DOWN.
NOW, I'M SURE AT SOME POINT IN
THE FUTURE IF HE WANTS A JOB
IN PUBLIC SERVICE, HE WILL
BE, AS THEY SAY, TAKEN
CARE OF, BUT HE HAD EVERY
INTENTION OF RUNNING AGAIN.
WE KEEP HEARING ABOUT HOW
IMPORTANT IT IS FOR THE TORIES
TO MAINTAIN THEIR STRANGLEHOLD
ON THE 905, WHICH THEY HAVE
RIGHT NOW WITH THE EXCEPTION
OF ONE RIDING, THE
AFOREMENTIONED Mr. SORBARA.
A SIGNIFICANT PART, I THINK
HALF THE PEOPLE OF THIS NEW
RIDING, LIVE IN THE 905.
HOW KEY DO YOU THINK IT WAS
TO Mr. EVES' DECISION TO BE
PLACED IN THE 905 AS A SIGN
THAT THIS IS GOING TO CONTINUE
TO BE A KEY PART OF
THE TORY STRATEGY?

Mac says WELL, I'D CERTAINLY THINK
IT WOULD SEND A SIGNAL
TO THE VOTERS IN THE AREA
THAT THE PARTY AND THE
GOVERNMENT TAKES THAT REGION
VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY, AS A
BEACHHEAD OF ITS SUPPORT.
AND TO RUTH'S POINT,
I MEAN THIS'D BE VERY
DISINGENUOUS TO SIT HERE AND
PRETEND THAT ONE REASON FOR
GOING INTO THE 905 IS BECAUSE
IT'S A WINNABLE SEAT.
I MEAN, I DON'T THINK THAT
ANYONE EXPECTS ANY LEADER TO
LOOK AROUND AND SAY, "AH, I
THINK I'LL HAVE A REALLY TOUGH
TIME UP THERE AND MAY NOT GET
ELECTED, SO I'LL RUN THERE."

Steve says BUT MIKE HARRIS SAID
ERNIE EVES CAN WIN A SEAT
ANYWHERE HE WANTED TO RUN.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

Mac says WELL, I BELIEVE
THAT HE COULD.

Steve says HONESTLY?

Mac says YES, I DO.
I THINK THAT, WELL,
THERE'S BEACHES-EAST YORK,
WHICH I DON'T THINK...

Steve says MAYBE NOT.

Richard says I WOULD LIKE TO
SEE HIM IN OTTAWA CENTRE.

Mac says I'D LIKE TO SEE
YOU
IN OTTAWA CENTRE.

Ruth says SEE, RIDINGS LIKE
TO BE REPRESENTED BY A
PREMIER, AND SO I THINK
IT IS EASIER FOR A PREMIER
TO FIND A SEAT.
BUT, INTERESTING, ON YOUR
POINT OF 905, I MEAN THE
SUBDIVISIONS ARE GROWING IN
PEEL, BUT THAT RIDING IS
PROBABLY MORE RURAL THAN
MANY OF THE 905 ONES.
I MEAN, IT DOES GO NORTH OF
ORANGEVILLE A CONSIDERABLE WAY.
THERE ARE CONSIDERABLE ISSUES.
THE OAK RIDGES MORAINE AND THE
NIAGARA ESCARPMENT MEET THERE.
Mr. EVES HAS NOT BEEN
PARTICULARLY KNOWN TO BE A
GREEN MEMBER, AND THERE
ARE AMALGAMATION ISSUES.
SO THERE ARE INTERESTING LOCAL
ISSUES, BUT I DON'T THINK
THEY'LL WEIGH FOR MUCH IN
THE BALANCE, THE ELECTION.

Steve says I THINK
YOU'RE RIGHT, RUTH.

Richard says AND SO THERE'S
NO QUESTION IT'S AN
IMPORTANT SYMBOL FOR THEM.
I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT,
AS MAC SUGGESTS.
BUT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN
IS, I THINK, AS RUTH SAYS, A
MORE URBAN OR SUBURBAN 905
RIDING WOULD PROBABLY PRESENT
PROBLEMS FOR HIM, AS
Mr. SORBARA'S ELECTION IN
VAUGHAN-KING-AURORA PROVES.
THE VERY SERVICES THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS CUT HAS
CAUSED A LOT OF PAIN TO
FAMILIES THAT LIVE IN THOSE
RIDINGS, AND Mr. EVES WOULD
HAVE A TOUGH TIME DEFENDING
THAT RECORD, HIS RECORD IN
BRAMPTON OR MISSISSAUGA
OR OTHER PLACES.

Ruth says JUST EASY
COMMUTING DISTANCE
FROM
QUEEN'S PARK AND...

Steve says THERE'S NO SUCH
THING AS AN EASY COMMUTE
ANYWHERE TO QUEEN'S PARK
THESE DAYS, BUT I KNOW WHAT
YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY.
IT'S ACTUALLY A
PRETTY DIVERSE RIDING.
IT'S GOT 416 AREA CODE
IN IT, 905
AND
519.
AND I THINK THERE ARE 110,000
PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE,
AND DAVID TILSON WAS
TELLING ME ABOUT 50,000 OF
THEM LIVE IN CALEDON ALONE.
SO IT IS
PRETTY DIVERSE.
WE GOT TO MOVE ON.

Richard says DON'T YOU GET
TO HANG OUT WITH THE
HORSEY SET THERE, TOO?
I'M NOT SURE
ABOUT THAT.
COMING UP, THE
OPPOSITION PARTIES PLOT
STRATEGY TO TAKE
ON ERNIE EVES.

Mac says THAT'S
ALMOST AN OXYMORON.

Janet Ecker appears on screen giving an interview with a caption that reads "Janet Ecker, Minister of Education." Janet is in her forties, has short, blond hair, wears glasses, and a red blazer.

Janet says I DON'T THINK ONTARIO
FAMILIES ARE LOOKING
FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT'S
LEFT, RIGHT OR CENTRE.
THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A
GOVERNMENT THAT APPRECIATES
THE PROBLEMS THEY'RE FACING
AND HAS SOLUTIONS THAT THEY
THINK ARE THE RIGHT ONES.

Greg says THERE'S GOING TO BE AN
AWFUL LOT OF ATTENTION
FOCUSED ON ERNIE EVES AND
WHAT HIS POSITION WILL BE,
HOW IT WILL BE
DIFFERENT OR THE SAME
FROM THE
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.
A LOT OF THE SPOTLIGHT WILL
BE FOCUSED ON EVES, WHILE
MCGUINTY WILL BE SORT OF
TRYING TO ELBOW EVES OUT
OF THAT SPOTLIGHT.
AND HE'S GOING TO HAVE A
DIFFICULT JOB DOING THAT.

Marilyn Churley appears on screen with a caption that reads "Marilyn Churley, MPP, NDP Toronto Danforth." Marilyn is in her forties, has short light brown hair and wears a pink fleece.

Marilyn says THE NDP WILL CONTINUE
TO COME FORWARD
WITH BRIGHT NEW IDEAS,
WHICH WE'VE BEEN DOING.
WE ARE THE
ONLY
PARTY THAT'S
BEEN CONSISTENTLY AND
FEROCIOUSLY FIGHTING
HYDRO PRIVATIZATION.
WE WILL CONTINUE
TO DO THAT.

Back in the studio, Steve says WELL, IF THIS WEEK
IS ANY INDICATION,
IT SEEMS THERE WILL BE
NO POLITICAL HONEYMOON
FOR THE PREMIER
DESIGNATE AS FAR AS
THE OPPOSITION
PARTIES ARE CONCERNED.
THEY DEMANDED EVES GIVE BACK
THE SEVERANCE PACKAGE HE WAS
AWARDED A YEAR AGO WHEN HE
QUIT POLITICS FOR WHAT TURNED
OUT TO BE A RATHER BRIEF
STINT IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
LOOKING DOWN THE LONGER TERM,
HOW WILL THE LIBERALS AND
NEW DEMOCRATS TRY TO TAKE
ON THE NEW PC LEADER?
WHAT WILL BE THEIR STRATEGIES
WHEN THE LEGISLATURE
RECONVENES IN MAY?
LET'S GET TO THIS ISSUE
ABOUT THE SEVERANCE PACKAGE
OFF THE TOP, MAC.
Mr. EVES, LIKE ALL POLITICIANS
WHO LEAVE PUBLIC LIFE,
IS ENTITLED TO TAKE A
SEVERANCE PACKAGE --
WHICH HE DID, OF 78,000 DOLLARS.
IF YOU'RE IN THE PUBLIC
SERVICE AND YOU COME BACK
AFTER, WHAT IS IT, A YEAR
OR TWO, YOU'VE GOT TO
GIVE THAT BACK.
HE HAS NOT INDICATED SO FAR
THAT HE WILL GIVE IT BACK,
EVEN THOUGH HE'S ONLY BEEN
OUT OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE
FOR A YEAR.
SHOULD HE GIVE IT BACK?

Mac says I DON'T THINK...
WELL, IT WILL BE A PERSONAL
DECISION ON HIS PART.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING
THAT WOULD COMPEL HIM
TO GIVE IT BACK.
I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY
HE WOULD GIVE IT BACK.
I MEAN, IT WAS GIVEN HIM AND
UNDER THE TERMS WHICH HE EARNED.
I MEAN, EVERY MEMBER WHO
GOES TO THE HOUSE EARNS
THAT SEVERANCE.
IT'S THE RULES
OF THE SEVERANCE.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY
RULE ATTACHED TO A MEMBER'S
SEVERANCE WHICH SAYS THAT IF
YOU RETURN TO ELECTED OFFICE
WITHIN A SPECIFIC PERIOD OF
TIME, IT HAS TO BE REMITTED.

Steve says THAT'S CORRECT.
IS THERE ANY SORT OF MORAL
OBLIGATION TO GIVE IT BACK?

Mac says NO.
YOU KNOW, I
MEAN, I... NO.

Steve says OKAY.
YOUR PARTY HAS
SAID YES, RUTH.
MICHAEL PRUE'S BEEN OUT
THERE SAYING HE IS OBLIGED
TO GIVE IT BACK.

Ruth says WELL, HE'S NOT OBLIGED
LEGALLY, I AGREE WITH MAC,
AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO
HAVE LEFT THE LEGISLATURE
AND BEEN RE-ELECTED AND
COME BACK, AND I DON'T KNOW
QUITE WHAT THEY DID.
IT'S A PERSONAL DECISION.
I WOULDN'T BE AT ALL SURPRISED
IF HE DOES GIVE IT BACK.
IT'S NOT A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY
IN RELATION TO THE PENSION
THAT HE'S GOING TO GET WHEN
HE'S FINISHED, GIVEN THE
REFORM OF THE PENSION
PLAN BY MIKE HARRIS.

Steve says 800,000, ISN'T IT?

Ruth says YES, IN HIS RUN, AND
HE'S ELIGIBLE FOR THE
SEVERANCE PACKAGE AGAIN
WHEN HE DECIDES TO LEAVE.
SO I THINK PROBABLY
HE WILL GIVE IT BACK.

Steve says RICK?

Richard says THERE'S NO LEGAL RIGHT,
ABSOLUTELY, BUT GIVEN
THE 800,000 DOLLARS PENSION
PLAN WHICH HE SORT OF
DESIGNED, Mr. EVES HAS A
PROBLEM HERE AND THE PROBLEM IS
THAT MOST OF US IN LIFE
DON'T GET TO HAVE A SEVERANCE
AND THEN COME BACK TO THE SAME
JOB AND KEEP THAT SEVERANCE.
IT JUST DOESN'T
WORK THAT WAY.
SO SYMBOLICALLY AND
POLITICALLY AND ALL OTHER
WAYS, IT WOULD BE VERY
IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO GIVE BACK
THAT SEVERANCE PAYOUT BECAUSE
HE WILL BE COMPENSATED FAIRLY
FOR BEING PREMIER, AND AS RUTH
POINTS OUT, HE WILL PRESUMABLY
BE ENTITLED TO SEVERANCE
WHEN HIS TERM IS UP SHORTLY
IN ONTARIO.

Mac says WELL, I THINK, YEAH,
JUST ON THIS PENSION POINT,
I MEAN IT'S NOT AS THOUGH
THERE WEREN'T MEMBERS IN
THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
OR THE MEMBERS OF THE LIBERAL
PARTY WHO WOULD NOT BENEFIT
FROM THE PENSION ENTITLEMENTS
WHICH THEY EARNED AS
MEMBERS OF THE ASSEMBLY.
AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME --

Richard says BUT, MAC, THEY DIDN'T
DESIGN THE SCHEME.
WHEN THEY KNEW ABOUT
A TAX RULING WHICH
SHOWED THAT THE MPPs --

Steve says ONE AT A TIME.
RICHARD, FINISH YOUR POINT.

Richard says Mr. EVES DESIGNED THE SCHEME
AS MINISTER OF FINANCE,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, HE SAT ON A TAX
ADVICE FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT WHICH SAID THE MPPs
WOULD HAVE, BECAUSE OF THE
RRSP, KIND OF A TAX LIABILITY,
WHICH THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOW
PAID OFF ON BEHALF
OF THE MPPs.
WHICH THE REST OF US, OF
AVERAGE FAMILIES IN ONTARIO,
OR EVEN MAC OR RUTH OR
STEVE, GET THAT DEAL?
NOBODY.

Ruth says NOW, LET ME GET MY
OAR IN ON THIS ONE.
AS SOMEBODY WHO RECEIVES
NOT THE GOLD-PLATED PACKAGE
BUT A PENSION.
WHAT I OBJECT TO IS THE WAY IT
WAS DESIGNED AND THE FACT THAT
IT WAS MOOTED AS A REFORM OF
A GOLD-PLATED PENSION PLAN.
IT WASN'T A PARTICULARLY
GOLD-PLATED PENSION PLAN
FOR MPPs.

Steve says NOT LIKE
THE FEDERAL ONE.
NOT LIKE THE
FEDERAL ONE.
AND THEY ENDED UP IN A
MUCH BETTER POSITION THAN
THEY WOULD'VE BEEN IF THEY'D
STAYED WITH THE OLD PLAN.
AND THEY ARE NOW IN
DIFFICULTY BECAUSE MANY
OF THEIR OWN MEMBERS WHO ARE
GETTING RE-ELECTED ARE
REALIZING THAT, IN FACT, THERE
ISN'T AS MUCH PENSION FOR
THEM AT THE END
OF THE DAY.
AND WE WILL SEE ANOTHER
REFORM OF PENSIONS NEXT TERM.

Steve says MAC, LET ME ASK
THE QUESTION, WHICH IS
YOU
KNOW THE OPPOSITION PARTIES
WILL BE ATTEMPTING, ASIDE OF
THIS ISSUE, TO CAST Mr. EVES
AS A BAY STREET FAT CAT GIVEN
WHAT HE DID THERE
DURING THE PREVIOUS YEAR
IN HIS PRIVATE SECTOR LIFE.
THE FACT THAT HE HAS A
RELATIONSHIP WITH ISABEL
BASSETT, WHO ALSO IS A WOMAN
OF MEANS, SUGGESTS THAT MONEY
MAY BECOME, YOU KNOW, ONE
OF THOSE NASTY POLITICAL
WEDGE ISSUES.
DO YOU NOT THINK THAT Mr. EVES
MAKES A PROBLEM GO AWAY IF
HE JUST GIVES THE MONEY
BACK AND TAKES THIS ISSUE
OFF THE TABLE?

Mac says WELL, FIRST OF ALL,
I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH OF
A PROBLEM IT
IS FOR Mr. EVES.
I KNOW THAT THE LIBERALS AND
NEW DEMOCRATS WOULD LIKE TO
MAKE IT A PROBLEM
FOR Mr. EVES.
I REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH
TRACTION THAT'S GOING TO HAVE
OUTSIDE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE
US WHO GET FASCINATED WITH
THIS SORT OF THING AND JUST
MULL IT OVER AND PROBE AT IT.

Ruth says SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

Mac says SPEAK FOR MYSELF.
SO I REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW
MUCH OF A PROBLEM IT IS FOR HIM.
I MEAN, IF THAT'S THE ONLY
THING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO
ATTACK Mr. EVES ON, THEY'RE IN
FOR AN EXTREMELY LONG SESSION.

Ruth says IT'S NOT.

Mac says THE OTHER THING IS
THOUGH, STEVE, REALLY,
THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO
SOMETHING BECAUSE IN THE YEARS
THAT ERNIE EVES WAS IN
THE HOUSE, QUITE FRANKLY,
THEY NEVER LAID
A GLOVE ON HIM.
SO WHAT'S THE
NEW STRATEGY?
IT BETTER BE NOT THE
OLD STRATEGY BECAUSE...

Steve says DO YOU KNOW WHAT?
THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.
I'M GOING TO PUT IT TO
RICHARD MAHONEY RIGHT NOW.
BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
Mr. EVES CLEARLY WANTS TO DO IS
RECAST THE IMAGE OF THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY
AWAY FROM WHAT SOME
PERCEIVE TO BE SORT OF
HARD RIGHT-WING NASTY
WEDGE-ISSUED DRIVEN POLITICS
THAT Mr. HARRIS' GOVERNMENT
WAS EITHER WELL KNOWN FOR OR
NOTORIOUS FOR, DEPENDING ON
THE WAY YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT.

Richard says APPRECIATED FOR.

Steve says APPRECIATED FOR, OKAY.
LOVED.
CASTING IT AS A MORE
MODERNIST, CENTRIST FORCE.
IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL AT
DOING THAT, IT POSES AN
ENORMOUS PROBLEM FOR YOU,
WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?
AND WHAT CAN
YOU DO ABOUT IT?

Richard says SURE, BUT I DON'T
THINK THEY WILL BE.
I THINK THAT Mr. EVES
OBVIOUSLY IS GOING TO TRY AND
RE-INVENT THE IMAGE OF NOT
ONLY THE GOVERNMENT BUT HIMSELF,
BUT HE WILL HAVE
CHOICES TO MAKE.
WE TALKED ABOUT ONE,
WHICH IS TO PAY BACK
THIS GRATUITOUS
SEVERANCE PAYOUT.
HE WILL ALSO HAVE
CHOICES TO MAKE ON
CHANGING -- HE'S GOING TO
HAVE TO CHANGE NOT ONLY
THE IMAGE OF THE GOVERNMENT
BUT THE POLICIES OF GOVERNMENT.
HE SUPPORTS THE PRIVATE SCHOOL
VOUCHER, 500 MILLION DOLLARS
WHICH COULD GO TO
PUBLIC EDUCATION.
HE SUPPORTS THE PRIVATIZATION
OF HYDRO ONE, THE ELECTRICITY
GRID WHICH DELIVERS
ELECTRICITY TO ALL OUR HOMES
WHICH
WE
ALL PAID FOR.
HE SUPPORTS A 2 POINT 2 BILLION DOLLAR
TAX CUT WHICH WAS --

Steve says OVER FIVE YEARS.

Richard says OVER FIVE YEARS,
WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY,
AT THE END OF IT, PUT
US LOWER THAN ALABAMA'S
CORPORATE TAX RATE.
SO IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR
HIM TO RECAST HIMSELF AS
HE SUPPORTS THE VERY POLICIES
WHICH I THINK ONTARIANS THINK
ARE THE IMAGE OF 'THESE GUYS
ARE PLAYING FOR THEMSELVES,
NOT FOR US'.

Steve says CAN YOU LET US
INTO SOME NEW DEMOCRATIC
THINKING ON HOW YOU INTEND TO
ATTACK HIM IN THE YEAR LEADING
UP TO THE NEXT ELECTION?

Ruth says WELL, I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH
HE'S GOING TO RECAST HIMSELF.
I MEAN, I THINK HE
WILL RECAST THE IMAGE
BUT NOT THE POLICIES.
HE WAS VERY MUCH PART OF THOSE
POLICIES, AND I THINK THAT THE
LESSON FROM THE LEADERSHIP MUST
BE FOR HIM THAT THE PARTY IS
QUITE HAPPY REALLY WITH
WHERE THEY ARE AND WITH
MIKE HARRIS AND
THOSE POLICIES.
SO I THINK FOR HIM, THE
DIFFICULTY IS GOING TO BE
TO APPEAR TO BE DIFFERENT
BUT NOT CHANGING THINGS.
I THINK FROM THE OPPOSITION'S
POINT OF VIEW, THE ISSUES
THAT RICHARD MENTIONED,
PARTICULARLY HYDRO, WHERE BOTH
DALTON MCGUINTY AND EVES ARE
SAYING THEY'D PRIVATIZE THE
GENERATION AND WE ARE VERY
MUCH DIFFERENT ON THAT AND,
IN FACT, HOWARD HAMPTON'S
CAMPAIGN AROUND THE PROVINCE IS
CERTAINLY FINDING
RESONANCE IN THE SMALL TOWNS,
PARTICULARLY NORTHERN AND
RURAL ONTARIO, AS THE PROSPECT
OF HYDRO RATES GOING UP,
SO THAT'S GOING TO BE
A DIFFICULT ONE.
THE HEALTHCARE, AND I WAS
VERY INTERESTED THIS WEEK.
I LISTENED IN TO THE
ROMANO PRESENTATIONS AND
Mr. CLEMENT WAS THERE
SPEAKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

Steve says THE HEALTH MINISTER.

Ruth says THE HEALTH MINISTER,
AND SAYING THAT THOUGH
IT WAS A TIME OF
TRANSITION, HE HAD TALKED TO
THE PREMIER ELECT AND HE AND
THE PREMIER ELECT AGREED,
YOU KNOW, IT WAS SO IMPORTANT,
THEY HAD TO MAKE --

Steve says PREMIER...
PSEPHOLOGISTS OUT
THERE WILL SAY.

Ruth says PREMIER
DESIGNATE, WHATEVER.
ANYWAY, BUT WHAT WAS
INTERESTING TO ME WAS HOW
EXPLICIT Mr. CLEMENT WAS ON
PRIVATIZATION OF SECTIONS OF
THE HEALTHCARE AND MORE
EXPLICIT THAN I'VE HEARD HIM
AS A MINISTER ALMOST, AND YET
HE KEPT SAYING, "I'M SPEAKING
WITH THE CONCURRENCE OF
THE PREMIER DESIGNATE."
SO I THINK THAT THE ISSUES
ARE GOING TO BE FAIRLY HARD
IDEOLOGICAL ISSUES AND FOR THE
NEW DEMOCRATS, HYDRO, HEALTH,
EDUCATION, THE ENVIRONMENT.
THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES
WHERE WE WILL DIFFERENTIATE
OURSELVES FROM BOTH THE
LIBERALS AND THE TORIES.

Richard says RUTH BRINGS UP
SOME GOOD POINTS AND
SOME NOT SO GOOD POINTS.
JUST TO CLARIFY, DALTON
MCGUINTY CALLED ON Mr. EVES
THIS WEEK TO HALT THE
SALE OF HYDRO ONE.
THAT IS THE GRID THAT
DISTRIBUTES ELECTRICITY
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
ON HEALTHCARE
THOUGH, SHE'S RIGHT.
I MEAN, Mr. EVES IN THE
CAMPAIGN AND Mr. CLEMENT
TODAY -- THIS WEEK, EXCUSE
ME -- ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE
PRIVATE INVOLVEMENT
IN HEALTHCARE.
AND THAT'S GOING TO
BE A TOUGH ONE TO DO.
AND THE OTHER POINT IS ON THE
STYLE, Mr. CLINTON DOWN IN THE
UNITED STATES MADE A LOT OF
POLITICAL HAY OUT OF TALKING
PROGRESSIVE STUFF BUT
NOT DOING IT THAT MUCH,
AND I THINK THAT THE --

Ruth says LIBERALS HAVE DONE IT
FOR
YEARS,
RICHARD.

Richard says WELL, WE CAN DEBATE THAT ON
A LATER SHOW PRESUMABLY.
BUT YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT A
VERY SMALL PROGRAM, AND IT
BECOMES IDENTIFIED WITH YOUR
ADMINISTRATION EVEN THOUGH
IT'S NOT THE CORE OF IT.
I SUSPECT RUTH'S RIGHT.
YOU'LL SEE Mr. EVES TALKING
MORE ABOUT IT, BUT WHAT'S HE
GOING TO DO WITH JIM FLAHERTY,
FOR EXAMPLE, WHO'LL RUN
A HARD-RIGHT CAMPAIGN.

Steve says NO, WE'RE GOING TO
GET TO THAT IN A SECOND.
LET ME JUST ASK THAT, THE
OVERARCHING QUESTION TO YOU,
MAC, WHICH IS IT APPEARS THAT
Mr. EVES IS VERY KEEN TO SORT
OF RECAST THE IMAGE OF THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY RIGHT NOW
INTO SOMETHING MORE MODERATE,
KINDER, GENTLER, WHATEVER
ADJECTIVES YOU WANT TO USE.
CAN HE DO THAT WHEN EVERY --
THESE TWO IN PARTICULAR
ARE GOING TO BE OUT THERE
REMINDING EVERYBODY THAT IT
WAS THE POLICIES THAT Mr. EVES
ENDORSED AT THE CABINET
TABLE WHICH BROUGHT US...
FILL IN THE BLANKS.

Mac says I THINK THAT WILL DEPEND
LARGELY ON THE ISSUES,
TO RUTH'S POINT, THAT THE
GOVERNMENT ELECTS TO TRY TO
MOVE THE NEEDLE ON A LITTLE
BIT, AND I THINK THAT THE
GOVERNMENT WILL COME TO A
CONCLUSION THAT IT CAN'T FIGHT
A THREE-FRONT WAR, SO...

Steve says WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?

Mac says WELL, THEY CAN'T FIGHT
A WAR ON EDUCATION,
THEY CAN'T FIGHT A WAR ON
HEALTHCARE, THEY CAN'T FIGHT
A WAR ON ENERGY POLICY.
THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO
FIGHT ON TWO FRONTS,
BUT THERE'S NO WAY IT
CAN FIGHT ON THREE.
SO WHICH ONE --

Ruth says SO THEY'LL BLAME
THE FEDS ON HEALTH,
AND THEY'LL FIGHT
ON THE OTHER TWO.

Mac says WELL, YOU KNOW, WHICH ONE
DO YOU TAKE OFF THE TABLE?
NOW, I'D TAKE HEALTHCARE OFF
THE TABLE OR I'D TRY TO GET
HEALTHCARE CORRALLED, FENCED,
WHATEVER, OUT OF THE LIVING
ROOM, GET THE 800-TON
ELEPHANT OUT OF THE LIVING
ROOM, AND THEN LET'S
FIGHT A TWO-FRONT WAR
OR A ONE-FRONT WAR AND
THEN WE GOT A GOOD SHOT.

Ruth says I THINK
THEY'LL TAKE EDUCATION.

Richard says SORRY, MAC BRINGS
UP A GOOD POINT THERE.
HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO DO
POLITICS DIFFERENTLY,
HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO LISTEN,
ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF.
THERE'S THREE OR FOUR
ISSUES THAT WE'VE SET OUT.
IF HE STARTS TO CHANGE ON ANY
ONE OF THOSE, THEN YOU'LL SEE
THAT THERE'S MAYBE MORE TO
THIS THAN MEETS THE EYE.
IF HE HOLDS FIRM ON THE TAX
CUT, IF HE HOLDS FIRM ON MORE
PRIVATE HEALTHCARE, IF HE HOLDS
FIRM ON THE PRIVATIZATION
OF HYDRO ONE, IF HE HOLDS
FIRM ON PRIVATE SCHOOL
VOUCHERS, THEN YOU'LL KNOW
IT'S MORE SPIN THAN REALITY.

Ruth says BUT IF HE LOOKS AT
THE EDUCATION FORMULA FUNDING,
WHICH HE HAS BEEN AMBIVALENT
ABOUT IN THE CAMPAIGN AND
WHICH HIS STRONG SUPPORTER,
JANET ECKER, I THINK WOULD
SUPPORT HIM DOING, I THINK
THAT WILL BE A VERY SOFT
SIGNAL, AND HE'LL GAIN A LOT
OF MARKS FOR THAT WHILE BEING
TOUGH AND HANGING IN
IDEOLOGICALLY ON
A LOT OF THE OTHERS.

Steve says SOME ARE
PORTRAYING WHAT'S HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW AT QUEEN'S PARK,
AS A KIND OF AN INTERESTING
RETURN SLASH REVENGE OF
THE BIG BLUE MACHINE.
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTIONARIES
HATED BILL DAVIS, AND THEY
HATED HIS KIND OF PRAGMATIC,
CENTRIST, GO A LITTLE LEFT
WHEN WE HAVE TO, GO A LITTLE
RIGHT WHEN WE HAVE TO APPROACH
TO POLITICS IN ONTARIO, AND
YET THIS IS THE MINDSET,
I WOULD SUGGEST, THAT'S
RETURNING TO QUEEN'S PARK.
SO, MAC, QUESTION -- ARE THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTIONARIES,
THOSE SORT OF TRUE BLUE
BELIEVING, YOU KNOW, RIGHT
WING FOLKS WHO ENDED UP WITH
JIM FLAHERTY ON THE SECOND
BALLOT OF THE METRO CONVENTION
CENTRE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO,
ARE THEY NOW IN FLIGHT AND IS
THE BIG BLUE MACHINE BACK?

Mac says I DON'T THINK THEY'RE
IN FLIGHT AT ALL.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE ONE
THING THAT I'VE ALWAYS ADMIRED
ABOUT THE ONTARIO CONSERVATIVE
PARTY IS THAT IT HANGS
TOGETHER SURPRISINGLY WELL
FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

Steve says SO FAR.
SO FAR, AND THAT REGARDLESS IF
YOU'RE A RED TORY, A BLUE TORY,
YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF
THE DAY, YOU'RE A TORY.
AND WE LOOK ACROSS THE
TABLE HERE AND WE SEE PEOPLE
THAT WE PROBABLY, WHILE WE
RESPECT THEM AND LIKE THEM
AND EVERYTHING ELSE, WE DON'T
WANT THEM RUNNING THE PROVINCE.
SO IN THAT CASE, I THINK...
BUT THEY'RE A WONDERFUL
UNIFYING FORCE FOR US.

Ruth says BUT I THINK THAT HE
WILL HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION
TO Mr. FLAHERTY AND THE NUMBER
OF VOTES THAT FLAHERTY GOT.
AND IF HE DOES THAT BY TAKING ON
BOARD SOME OF THE MANAGERS OF
THE FLAHERTY CAMPAIGN,
THEN YOU'LL SEE A CHANGE.
SO I'M NOT SURE THAT
THE BIG BLUE MACHINE,
WHATEVER'S LEFT
OF IT, IS BACK.

Steve says WELL, I USE THAT
AS SORT OF AN APPROACH...

Mac says THERE WERE ALWAYS A RIGHT
WING ELEMENT IN THE
BIG BLUE MACHINE AS WELL.

Steve says WELL, FRANK
MILLER WAS TREASURER.
FRANK MILLER.
SORRY, RICHARD, GO AHEAD.

Richard says THEY ACTUALLY
CALL IT THE BIG NEW MACHINE
NOW AS THEIR SORT OF THING.
BUT THERE'S A TEST THERE.
WHAT DOES HE DO
WITH FLAHERTY?
DOES HE KEEP HIM AS DEPUTY
PREMIER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE?
WHAT DOES HE DO WITH FLAHERTY
SUPPORTERS IN CABINET?
Mr. HUDAK, Mr. BAIRD...
STEWART, YOU KNOW,
BECAUSE IF HE'S TRYING TO
REINVENT AND RECAST THIS
GOVERNMENT AS A MORE MODERATE,
CENTRIST GOVERNMENT, HE'S
GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME
DOING IT, AND IF THOSE
PEOPLE GET HIGH PROFILE
ROLES AS THE STANDARD
BEARERS ARE THE MORE
CONSERVATIVE WING
OF THE PARTY.

Steve says LET ME ASK YOU, YOU'VE
BEEN IN CABINET.
CAN YOU REPLACE THE MINISTER
OF FINANCE ONE MONTH BEFORE
HE'S TO BRING DOWN, OR SHE'S
TO BRING DOWN A BUDGET?
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT ON
THE TABLE RIGHT NOW.
Ruth says I THINK IT WOULD
BE DIFFICULT.
I MEAN, YOU CAN BECAUSE THE
FUNCTIONARIES AND...
PRESUMABLY THE BUDGET HAS
BEEN DISCUSSED IN CABINET AND
EVERYBODY IS PROBABLY AWARE OF
THE DETAILS AND, AFTER ALL,
ALL THE FINANCE MINISTER
DOES REALLY IS READ IT.
AND I'VE BEEN SAYING FROM THE
BEGINNING THAT I WOULD NOT BE
SURPRISED IF HE LEFT Mr.
FLAHERTY IN THAT POSITION.
I THINK THAT IT MAY WELL
BE A DIFFICULT BUDGET.
THERE MAY BE SOME DECISIONS
THAT HAVE TO BE MADE THAT
HE WOULD RATHER HAVE
Mr. FLAHERTY WEAR, AS
THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT THEM
TO THIS POINT, THAN HE WANTS,
AND GET THE BUDGET OUT OF
THE WAY AND THEN BEGIN
THE NEW REGIME WOULD BE MY
APPROACH IF I WAS ERNIE EVES.

Steve says ERNIE EVES AND
JIM FLAHERTY HELD,
ON THURSDAY THIS PAST WEEK, A
VERY MANY-CAMERAS-IN-ATTENDANCE
LITTLE GRIP AND GRIN, WE'RE
GOING IN FOR OUR BRIEFING
SINGING OUT OF THE
SAME HYMN BOOK.
LOOK WHAT BUDDIES WE ARE
KIND OF PRESS CONFERENCE.
DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO MOVE
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
OUT OF THAT JOB A
MONTH BEFORE HE HAS TO
BRING DOWN A BUDGET?

Mac says I DON'T THINK THAT HE...
WOULD I DO IT?
PROBABLY NOT, BUT THAT'S
BECAUSE I'M CAUTIOUS BY NATURE,
I SUPPOSE.

Steve says OR COULD ERNIE EVES DO
IT GIVEN THAT HE'S
ALREADY BROUGHT IN SIX
BUDGETS AND HE KIND OF KNOWS
WHERE IT'S AT?
WELL, LISTEN, I THINK THAT
ERNIE EVES KNOWS THE
MINISTRY OF FINANCE
FUNCTIONS BETTER THAN
ANYONE IN THE CABINET,
QUITE FRANKLY, AND A LOT
OF THE SAME PEOPLE
IN THE LEVELS OF THE
CIVIL SERVICE WHO ERNIE
EVES WORKED WITH ARE
STILL THERE, SO HE WOULD FEEL
VERY COMFORTABLE AND I THINK
QUITE CONFIDENT MANAGING
THAT PORTFOLIO HIMSELF.
I'M NOT SUGGESTING HE WILL, BUT
HE CERTAINLY HAS THE KNOWLEDGE
AND THE EXPERTISE TO DO IT.

Ruth says SO IT'S A CASE OF WHOSE
NAME GOES ON THE BUDGET.
AND THAT WOULD BE A
POLITICAL DECISION.

Richard says MY PREDICTION IS IT'D
BE VERY DIFFICULT
TO MOVE HIM OUT.
I PREDICT HE'LL LEAVE FLAHERTY
IN FOR THAT VERY REASON.
Steve says AND FOR PARTY
UNITY REASONS AS WELL?
AND FOR PARTY UNITY
REASONS, IT'LL BE SEEN AS
A SYMBOL TO THOSE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTIONARIES WHO
ENDED UP WITH HIM ON
THE SECOND BALLOT.

Steve says THAT WE STILL LOVE YOU
AND WANT YOU BACK.
THAT'S RIGHT.

Ruth says AND I'M TOLD THAT
TONY CLEMENT HAS GOT AN
AGREEMENT THAT HE
WILL STAY IN HEALTH.

Richard says NOT MUCH CHANGE.
BUT I DID LIKE RUTH'S
COMMENT THAT THE BUREAUCRATS
HAVE ALREADY WRITTEN THE SPEECH
WHILE THE MINSTER HASN'T.
REMINDED ME OF THAT GREAT
PROGRAM,
YES, MINISTER.
YES, IT DOES.
AND THERE'S A LOT OF
TRUTH, UNFORTUNATELY,
IN WHAT RUTH
SAYS ACTUALLY.

Steve says LET ME
JUST SAY THANK YOU
AND, YES, PANELISTS.
OKAY, THANKS FOR A
GOOD DISCUSSION
AND WE'LL HAVE YOU
BACK AGAIN NEXT WEEK.
AND OUR THANKS TO YOU FOR
WATCHING
FOURTH READING
FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT SUNDAY,
THANK YOU.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 266