Transcript: Timothy Garton Ash on Is Canada sufficiently European | Oct 08, 2006

[Theme music plays]

The opening sequence rolls. The logo of "Big Ideas" featuring a lit lamp bulb appears against an animated yellow slate.
Then, Andrew Moodie appears in the studio. The walls are decorated with screens featuring lit lamp bulbs, and two signs read "Big ideas."
Andrew is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly black hair. He’s wearing a terracotta jacket and a light purple polo-shirt.

Speaking with a British accent, Andrew says
HELLO, I'M ANDREW MOODIE AND
THIS OF COURSE IS
BIG
IDEAS.
He chuckles and in his normal voice continues
OKAY, THAT WAS BAD, WASN'T IT?
BUT IT'S INTERESTING THERE WAS
A TIME IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN IF
YOU WANTED TO WORK IN THE
PROFESSIONAL THEATRE YOU HAD TO
HAVE A BRITISH ACCENT.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, IN CERTAIN
THEATRES YOU HAD TO BE BRITISH.
IT TOOK A LONG TIME IN CANADA,
IN ENGLISH CANADA FOR CANADIAN
ACTORS AND THE CANADIAN WAY OF
SPEAKING TO BE HEARD ON OUR
STAGES PERFORMING SHAKESPEARE
AND WHEN WE DID DO IT CRITICS
OFTEN UNABATED THE PRODUCTIONS
FOR SELLING THE TEXT WITH OUR
COLLOQUIAL DIALECT.
AND THAT WAS IN THE 80s.
IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO, IT'S
VERY SAD.
THE REASON WHY I BRING THIS UP
IS TO HIGHLIGHT THE COMPLEX
RELATIONSHIP WE CANADIANS BOTH
ENGLISH AND FRENCH HAVE WITH
OUR COLONIAL PAST.
I THINK THAT MANY IN THE WORLD
SEE CANADA AS BEING MORE
EUROPEAN THAN AMERICAN AND IF
THEY DON'T THEN CERTAINLY MANY
CANADIANS WOULD LIKE THAT TO BE
THE CASE BUT WHAT EXACTLY DOES
THAT MEAN?
HOW EXACTLY ARE WE MORE
EUROPEAN?
WHAT VALUES DO WE SHARE WITH
THEM AND WHAT ASPECTS OF OUR
SOCIETY ARE STRICTLY NORTH
AMERICAN?
TIMOTHY GARTON ASH IS HERE TO
GIVE US HIS TAKE.
HE IS A VERY WELL KNOWN ENGLISH
ACADEMIC AND JOURNALIST.
HE WRITES A WEEKLY COLUMN FOR
THE GUARDIAN.
HE IS THE AUTHOR OF THE
RECENTLY PUBLISHED
FREE WORLD AMERICA,
EUROPE AND THE
SURPRISING FUTURE OF
THE WEST.
AND HE'S BEEN SPOTTED ON THE
LIST OF 100 GLOBAL
INTELLECTUALS, HE'S NUMBER 52.
SPEAKING OF CANADA, NAOMI KLEIN
IS NUMBER 11 AND MICHAEL
IGNATIEFF IS NUMBER 37.
HERE'S TIMOTHY GARTON ASH.

Timothy Garton Ash stands behind a lectern on a dark stage giving a lecture. He’s in his late forties, with a reddish beard and short hair. He’s wearing a dark suit, a light pink shirt and a red patterned tie.

Timothy says NOW I
HAVE GIVEN MYSELF A SLIGHTLY
FLIP TITLE.
WHY AREN'T CANADIANS EUROPEANS?
AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT THE MORE
THAT I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS THE
MORE I REALLY COULDN'T COME UP
WITH ANY GOOD ANSWER.

[ Laughter ]

He continues EXCEPT
FOR THE CHILDISHLY SUPERFICIAL
OBSERVATION THAT CANADA ISN'T
IN EUROPE WHICH I'LL COME BACK
TO.
BUT IF WE LOOK AT THE LEADING
ENGLISH LANGUAGE DICTIONARIES
He puts on a pair of glasses and continues THE FIRST DEFINITION OF A
EUROPEAN IN ALMOST ALL OF THEM
IS SOME VERSION OF WHAT THE OED
SAYS "A PERSON DESCENDED FROM
NATIVES OF EUROPE."
THAT IS THE FIRST MEANING OF
THE EUROPEAN IN MOST OF THE
DICTIONARIES NOW I'M WELL AWARE
THAT THESE DAYS LESS THAN 20 percent
OF THE NEW IMMIGRANTS TO CANADA
ACTUALLY COME FROM EUROPE BUT
NONETHELESS AN AWFUL LOT OF
CANADIANS ARE DESCENDED FROM
NATIVES OF EUROPE ADMITTEDLY
THOSE NATIVES OF EUROPE FOR
SOME PECULIAR REASON WANTED TO
LEAVE EUROPE AT SOME POINT.
BUT NONETHELESS IT SEEMS TO ME
THE SENTIMENTS TOWARDS EUROPE
ARE STILL VERY PRESENT AND VERY
STRONG AT LEAST TO JUDGE BY THE
NUMBER OF FLAGS I'VE SEEN
FLYING FROM CARS ALL AROUND
TORONTO OVER THE WEEKEND.

[Laughter]

He continues QUITE
EXTRAORDINARY.
PORTUGUESE FLAGS, ITALIAN
FLAGS, THE FLAG OF ST. GEORGE
OF COURSE I PARTICULARLY LIKED
ONE CAR I SAW YESTERDAY WHICH
HAD FROM ONE DOOR THE ENGLISH
FLAG,
THE FLAG OF SAINT GEORGE.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Timothy Garton Ash. The Free World: America, Europe, and the Surprising Future of the West."

He continues AND FROM THE OTHER DOOR THE
GERMAN FLAG.
THIS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN IS
WHAT WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO
ACHIEVE IN THE EUROPEAN UNION
FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS.

[Laughter]

He continues CANADA
IS AHEAD OF US.
MORE PERSONALLY, MORE SERIOUSLY
UM, I ACTUALLY HAVE MORE
COUSINS IN CANADA THAN I DO IN
ENGLAND AND I'M DELIGHTED TO
SAY THAT TWO OF THEM ARE HERE
TONIGHT AND WHILE I AM A
PASSIONATE EUROPEAN AND SPEAK
TO YOU AS AN ENGLISH EUROPEAN
UH, SOMEONE WHO FEELS AT HOME
IN ALMOST ANY CORNER OF EUROPE
IN MOLDAVIA, IN TRANSNISTERIA,
IN TRANSCARPATHIAN RUTHINIA.
NONETHELESS IT WOULD BE A
STRETCH TO SAY THAT I FELT
CLOSER SAY...
TO A RUSSIAN SPEAKING MOLDAVIAN
IN MY ATTITUDES, IN MY VALUES
THAN I DO TO THE CHILDREN OF MY
MOTHER'S BROTHER.
SO HISTORY MATTERS.
THERE IS STILL A VERY STRONG
REALITY THERE.
BUT THESE DAYS IF YOU LOOK AT
THE POLITICAL DEFINITION OF
WHAT IT MEANS TO BE EUROPEANS
YOU DON'T GET SO MUCH OF
HISTORY THE MOST I WOULD SAY
COMMON DEFINITION OF WHAT IT
MEANS TODAY TO BE A EUROPEAN IS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH A SET OF
ATTITUDES, VALUES, APPROACHES
TO DOMESTIC POLICY AND
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS WHICH
ARE CLAIMED TO BE DISTINCTIVE
TO EUROPE AND WHICH CRUCIALLY
DISTINGUISH US FROM THE UNITED
STATES.
EUROPE DEFINED AS THE NOT
AMERICA.
NOT THE UNITED STATES.
IT'S A CLASSIC VERSION OF THIS
DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO
BE A EUROPEAN CAME IN A
MANIFESTO PUBLISHED BY JOINTLY
BY THE FRENCH PHILOSOPHER
JACQUES DERRIDA AND THE GERMAN
SOCIAL THINKER JURGEN HABERMAS
AT THE HEIGHT OF THE IRAQ
CRISIS ACTUALLY DURING THE IRAQ
WAR AND THIS MANIFESTO WHICH
ATTEMPTED TO DEFINE WHAT IT
MEANS TO BE A EUROPEAN WAS
ESSENTIALLY A LIST OF WHAT
DISTINGUISHES US FROM THE
UNITED STATES IN THEIR VIEW.
"WE EUROPEANS IT SAID BELIEVE
THAT THE FORCES OF THE FREE
MARKET SHOULD BE TAMED AND
FETED BY A CONCERN FOR SOCIAL
JUSTICE, SOLIDARITY BY THE
WELFARE STATE.
WE EUROPEANS BELIEVE IN THE
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
THAT RELIGION SHOULD BE KEPT
OUT OF POLITICS.
WE EUROPEANS ARE VERY MUCH
AGAINST CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
WE EUROPEANS BELIEVE THAT THE
USE OF FORCE SHOULD ONLY
BE A
LAST RESORT.
ALWAYS SANCTIONED BY
INTERNATIONAL LAW.
ALTOGETHER WE BELIEVE IN THE
IMPORTANCE OF INTERNATIONAL
LAW.
AND
INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATIONS.
WE BELIEVE IN MULTILATERALISM
RATHER THAN UNILATERALISM."
DOES THIS LIST BEGIN TO SOUND
SLIGHTLY FAMILIAR?
"WE EUROPEANS" THEY WENT ON,
"BELIEVE THAT IN PRIVATE LIFE
PEOPLE SHOULD BASICALLY BE ABLE
TO DO PRETTY MUCH AS THEY WANT,
LIVE WITH WHO THEY WANT, HOW
THEY WANT, LIFESTYLE,
LIBERALISM" AND SO ON.
AS JEREMY RIFKIN THE AUTHOR OF
I THINK SOMEWHAT STARRY EYED
BOOK CALLED
THE EUROPEAN
DREAM
COMMENTED AFTER A
RECENT VISIT TO CANADA IT
SEEMED TO HIM THAT WHAT WERE
DESCRIBED AS CANADIAN VALUES
AND THE VALUES OF THE NEW
EUROPE PRETTY MUCH COINCIDED.
"INDEED" HE WROTE AND I QUOTE,
"THE EUROPEAN DREAM COULD JUST
AS EASILY BE CALLED THE
CANADIAN DREAM."
NOW THAT CLAIM I THINK REQUIRES
A LITTLE CLOSER EXAMINATION AND
I OF COURSE SPEAK TO YOU AS AN
ENGLISH EUROPEAN AS A
EUROPEANIST NOT AS A
CANADIANIST.
I WOULDN'T DREAM TO TELL YOU
ABOUT YOUR OWN COUNTRY.
BUT I HAVE DONE A LITTLE
DIGGING IN PREPARATION FOR THIS
LECTURE AND I TRIED TO LOOK AT
THREE LEVELS.
PUBLIC OPINION.
WHAT ONE MIGHT CALL PUBLISHED
OPINIONS AND POLICIES.
IN WORKING ON THE BOOK WHOSE
TITLE MARGARET MACMILLAN VERY
KINDLY MENTIONED
FREE
WORLD
I LOOKED IN DEPTH
AT THE SURVEY EVIDENCE ON
PUBLIC OPINION FOR EUROPE AND
FOR THE UNITED STATES AND I
HAVE NOW GONE BACK AND LOOKED
AT THE SURVEY EVIDENCE FOR
CANADA WHICH IS EXTENSIVE IN
THE WORK OF THE PEW INSTITUTE,
THE STRATEGIC COUNCIL, MACLEANS
MAGAZINE, EPSOURCE, WE'RE
SPONSORED BY THE DOMINION
INSTITUTE AND SO ON AND OF
COURSE THE FIRST THING THAT
STRIKES ONE IS THAT THE
COMPARISONS MADE SO FAR AS I
CAN SEE IN THE CANADIAN
LITERATURE ARE ALMOST
EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE UNITED
STATES.
ALMOST OBSESSIVELY IF I MAY SAY
SO WITH THE UNITED STATES AND
THERE IS THE ARGUMENT FOR
EXAMPLE OF MICHAEL ADAMS THAT
WHILE THERE'S AN ECONOMIC
CONVERGENCE BETWEEN THE UNITED
STATES AND CANADA THERE'S A
DIVERGENCE IN SOCIOCULTURAL
VALUES.
OF COURSE ONE HAS TO ADD AS
ALWAYS IN THIS AREA THAT THERE
ARE CONSIDERABLE DIFFERENCES
BETWEEN REGIONS, REGIONS IN
CANADA, REGIONS IN THE UNITED
STATES, REGIONS IN EUROPE,
ONTARIO IS NOT ALBERTA, NEW
ENGLAND IS NOT TEXAS.
WHAT I DID IS TO GO OFF AND
TRIED TO COMPARE THE CANADIAN
MATERIAL WITH THE EUROPEAN
SURVEYS.
AGAIN, ACTUALLY, RIFKIN'S VIEW
HOLDS UP PRETTY WELL.
THERE IS A PRETTY REMARKABLE
CONFLUENCE OF THE AGGREGATE
RESPONSES OF CANADIANS AND OF
MOST EUROPEANS.
WHERE ONE MIGHT FIND -- MIGHT
ONE FIND DIFFERENCES WELL...
PERHAPS SOMEWHERE IN THE REGION
OF ATTITUDES TO SELF-RELIANCE.
OR WHAT SAMUEL SMILES CALLED
SELF-HELP.
THERE WAS AN INTERESTING
QUESTION IN THE PEW GLOBAL
ATTITUDE SURVEY IN 2005 WHICH
IS A GLOBAL COMPARISON AND THE
QUESTION WAS DO YOU THINK
SUCCESS IN LIFE IS DETERMINED
BY FORCES BEYOND OUR CONTROL?
IN THE UNITED STATES 65 percent OF
THOSE ASKED SAID NO.
IN GERMANY 68 percent OF THOSE ASKED
SAID YES, SUCCESS IN LIFE IS
DETERMINED BY FORCES BEYOND OUR
CONTROL.
EVEN IN POLAND, A FAIRLY SELF-
WILLED COUNTRY 63 percent OF THOSE
ASKED SAID SUCCESS IN LIFE IS
DETERMINED BY FORCES BEYOND OUR
CONTROL.
ON THE WHOLE THOSE WERE THE
EUROPEAN ANSWERS.
CANADA WAS MUCH CLOSER TO THE
UNITED STATES.
63 percent OF THOSE ASKED SAID NO.
YOUR SUCCESS IN LIFE DEPENDS ON
YOURSELF.
BRITAIN INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH
WAS SLAP BANG IN THE MIDDLE.
48 percent EACH WAY.
BUT IF YOU THEN WENT ON TO ASK
A SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTION ABOUT
FREEDOM AGAINST THE SAFETY NET
DO YOU THINK IT'S MORE
IMPORTANT THAT GOVERNMENT
GUARANTEES THAT NO ONE IS NEED
OR IS IT MORE IMPORTANT THAT
GOVERNMENT LEAVES YOU FREE TO
PURSUE YOUR OWN GOALS?
THEN WE GET A DIFFERENT SPLIT.
IN THE UNITED STATES 34 percent ONLY
SAY IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAT
GOVERNMENT GUARANTEES THAT NO
ONE IS IN NEED.
58 percent SAYS THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULD
LEAVE US FREE TO MAKE OUR OWN
WAY.
IN CANADA IT'S VIRTUALLY THE
OTHER WAY AROUND.
52 percent, THE MAJORITY SAYS
GOVERNMENT SHOULD GUARANTEE
THAT NO ONE IS IN NEED ONLY 43 percent
GOVERNMENT SHOULD LEAVE US FREE
OR IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAT
GOVERNMENT LEAVE US FREE TO GET
ON WITH IT OUR OWN WAY
ESSENTIALLY CANADA GAVE A
EUROPEAN ANSWER.
IN GERMANY THE SPLIT WAS 57 percent
GOVERNMENT SHOULD GUARANTEE TO
39 percent.
IN THE UK 62 percent TO 33 percent.
ANOTHER AREA IN WHICH ONE MIGHT
TENTATIVELY SEE A CANADIAN
EUROPEAN DIFFERENCE WOULD BE IN
THAT DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF
AMERICAN SOCIETY RELIGION.
IN A RECENT POLL COMMISSIONED
BY THE DOMINION INSTITUTE IN
RESPONSE TO ONE QUESTION TWO
THIRDS OF CANADIANS SAID THAT
RELIGION IS VERY IMPORTANT.
IT'S EITHER VERY IMPORTANT OR
SOMEWHAT IMPORTANT IN THEIR
LIFE.
NOT AN ANSWER YOU WOULD GET IN
MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THESE
DAYS BUT AGAIN IN A
SUPPLEMENTARY 67 percent OF CANADIANS
SAID THAT RELIGIOUS LEADERS
SHOULD NOT INFLUENCE GOVERNMENT
DECISIONS.
I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST
SIGNIFICANT AND MARKED
DIFFERENCE IS IN ATTITUDES TO
IMMIGRATION AND TO ETHNIC
MINORITIES.
IT IS VERY CLEAR IN MOST OF THE
POLLS THAT CANADIANS ACROSS THE
BOARD LIKE AMERICANS HAVE A
MUCH MORE IN FACT, MORE THAN
AMERICANS HAVE A MUCH MORE
POSITIVE ATTITUDE TO
IMMIGRATION AND TO ETHNIC
MINORITIES THAN VIRTUALLY ALL
EUROPEANS DO.
I HAVE TO SAY FOR ME ONE ANSWER
WAS ALSO INTERESTING.
THIS WAS IN A MACLEANS ANNUAL
POLL AND THIS WAS ABOUT
ATTITUDES TO AMERICANS AND THE
QUESTION POSED VERY DIRECTLY.
THE QUESTION WAS WOULD YOU
DESCRIBE CANADIANS AND
AMERICANS AS ESSENTIALLY THE
SAME?
MAINLY THE SAME BUT WITH SMALL
DIFFERENCES?
OR MAINLY DIFFERENT OR
ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT?
AND IN 1999 A MAJORITY OF THOSE
ASKED IN THOSE POLL 51 percent OF
CANADIANS SAID EITHER
ESSENTIALLY OR MAINLY THE SAME
AS AMERICANS.
THAT FIGURE HAD FALLEN TO 44 percent
IN 2004 BUT STILL A VERY
STRIKING ANSWER.
NOT AN ANSWER YOU WOULD GET IN
ANY COUNTRY IN EUROPE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU LOOK
AT THE EUROPEAN POLLING THERE
ARE VAST DIFFERENCES, VAST
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DIFFERENT
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND IN
COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE AND
POLAND FOR EXAMPLE AND MUCH OF
CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE YOU
WOULD RECEIVE VERY STRONGLY PRO
AMERICAN ANSWERS.
THOUGH NOT QUITE AS STRONG AS
THAT.
WE DESCRIBE RELIGION AS AN
AMERICAN SPECIFICITY BUT
ACTUALLY MORE UKRAINIANS THAN
AMERICANS SAY THAT IT IS
NECESSARILY -- IT IS NECESSARY
TO BELIEVE IN GOD IN ORDER TO
BE MORAL.
WE OFTEN CONSIDER THAT
PATRIOTISM SOME WOULD SAY
NATIONALISM IS A DISTINGUISHING
FEATURE OF TODAY'S UNITED
STATES.
BUT AGAIN ON THE COMPARATIVE
POLLING IRELAND SCORES HIGHER
THAN THE UNITED STATES ON
PATRIOTISM AND POLAND ALMOST AS
HIGH.
MANY HAVE ARGUED THAT WHAT
DISTINGUISHES THE UNITED STATES
AGAINST EUROPEANS AND PERHAPS
CANADIANS IS ITS READINESS TO
USE FORCE.
IN ROBERT KAGAN'S FAMOUS OR
INFAMOUS PHRASE "AMERICANS ARE
FROM MARS, EUROPEANS ARE FROM
VENUS" BUT ACTUALLY IF YOU LOOK
AT THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FROM
THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR
UNTIL THE 11th OF SEPTEMBER
2001 THE BRITISH AND THE FRENCH
WERE MORE PREPARED TO USE ARMED
FORCE WITH OR WITHOUT
INTERNATIONAL LEGAL SANCTION
THAN THE UNITED STATES WAS.
BRITAIN AND FRANCE ARE VERY
DISTINCTLY THE CHILDREN OF
MARS.
IF I TURN TO FROM PUBLIC
OPINION WHICH IS ALWAYS A
MORASIVE INTERPRETATION TO
PUBLISHED OPINIONS AND DIP INTO
THE GREAT CANADIAN DEBATES I
HAVE TO SAY THEY SEEM TO ME SO
FAMILIAR.
YOUR DEBATES ABOUT HEALTH CARE,
ABOUT PENSION, ABOUT EDUCATION
THEY ARE IN ESSENCE WITH SMALL
VARIATIONS OUR DEBATES.
WHAT ABOUT DIVERSITY AND
MULTICULTURALISM?
I CAME ACROSS A STUDY DONE A
CANADIAN VALUE STUDY IN WHICH
CANADIANS WERE ASKED WHAT MAKES
CANADA UNIQUE AND THE LEAD
ANSWER 23 percent SAID DIVERSITY OR
MULTICULTURALISM.
AND THAT
IS OF COURSE IS A VERY STRIKING
FEATURE OF CANADIAN SOCIETY BUT
I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT WHEN
LONDON MADE ITS BID FOR THE
OLYMPIC
GAMES FOR 2012 ITS CENTRAL
PITCH WAS DIVERSITY AND
MULTICULTURALISM.

The caption changes to "Donner Foundation lecture. June 26, 2006."

He continues THE CITY IN WHICH MORE THAN 300
LANGUAGES ARE SPOKEN.
I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT THE
MAIN NEW NARRATIVE OF THE
EUROPEAN UNION TODAY IS A
NARRATIVE OF DIVERSITY OF WHAT
WE CALL UNITY AND DIVERSITY AND
FOR US AS I SUSPECT FOR YOU THE
REAL PROBLEM TODAY OR THE REAL
QUESTION TODAY IS NOT WHERE'S
THE DIVERSITY THERE'S PLENTY OF
THAT IT'S WHERE'S THE UNITY AND
AS I LOOK AT THE DEBATES ABOUT
MULTICULTURALISM, THE DEBATE
FOLLOWING THE ARREST OF THE 17
ALLEGED TERRORISTS IN CANADA I
SEE EXACTLY THE SAME DEBATES
ABOUT HOW MUCH MULTICULTURAL,
DIVERSITY AND DIFFERENCE AND
HOW MUCH MINIMAL ASSIMILATION,
LINGUISTIC, CULTURAL AND LEGAL
IS NEEDED.
YOUR DEBATE ABOUT THE
DEPLOYMENT IN AFGHANISTAN IT
COULD BE THE DEBATE IN THE
NETHERLANDS OR GERMANY
ABSOLUTELY IN FACT, ON THAT
SUBJECT I WOULD SAY THAT IF WE
ASSUME A CONTINUUM BETWEEN THE
UNITED STATES FROM MARS AND
EUROPE FROM VENUS THEN BRITAIN
IS CLEARLY MORE AMERICAN THAN
CANADA.
THERE WOULD BE NO DEBATE IN
BRITAIN ABOUT A UH, A
PEACEMAKING, A PEACEMAKING
RATHER THAN A PEACEKEEPING
DEPLOYMENT OF BRITISH TROOPS.
IF YOU GOTTA STOP THE TALIBAN,
YOU GOTTA STOP THE TALIBAN.
YOUR DEBATE ABOUT IRAQ, YOUR
DEBATE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE I
COULD GO ON.
IF I LOOK AT THE RHETORIC OF
CANADIAN FOREIGN POLICY MOVING
ON TO THE THIRD AREA THAT OF
POLICIES I CAN SEE SOME
INTERESTING SIMILARITIES, TOO.
SOMEONE ONCE SAID I HOPE YOU
WILL FORGIVE ME FOR QUOTING
THIS THAT "CANADIANS" THIS IS A
CANADIAN SPEAKING
He reads "CANADIANS" I
QUOTE "LOVE TO YELL ABOUT HOW
MODEST WE ARE."

[Laughter]

He continues LADIES
AND GENTLEMEN THIS IS A PERFECT
DESCRIPTION OF THE EUROPEAN
UNION.
WE LOVE TO YELL ABOUT HOW
MODEST WE ARE IN THE WORLD
UNLIKE THE AMERICANS.
SOMEONE ONCE SAID QUITE RIGHTLY
THAT THERE IS THE ARROGANCE OF
POWER AS SEEN IN THE UNITED
STATES FORMERLY IN BRITAIN BUT
THERE IS ALSO THE ARROGANCE OF
IMPOTENCE AND MAYBE THAT'S
SOMETHING WE SHARE A LITTLE.
IF I LOOK AT THE SUBSTANCE OF
FOREIGN POLICY THE OFFICIAL
WEBSITE OF THE CANADIAN FOREIGN
MINISTRY QUITE RIGHTLY SAYS
THAT CANADA AND THE EU AGREE ON
ALMOST EVERYTHING.
MULTILATERALISM, INTERNATIONAL
LAW, INTERNATIONAL
ORGANISATIONS, THE ENVIRONMENT
UH, DEVELOPMENT, FREE TRADE.
SO ON AND SO FORTH.
THEN WE LOOK AT THE HARD
REALITIES.
SHALL WE LOOK AT DEFENCE
SPENDING?
CANADIAN DEFENCE SPENDING IN
1985 2.2 percent OF GDP CANADIAN
DEFENCE SPENDING.
IN 2005 1.1 percent OF GDP, LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN YOU ARE MORE EUROPEAN
THAN THE EUROPEANS IN DEFENCE
SPENDING.
ONLY LUXEMBOURG SPENDS LESS.

[Laughter]

He continues OR IF I
LOOK AT INTERNATIONAL
DEVELOPMENT, AID AND REMEMBER
THE FAMOUS AND IN MY VIEW
ABSOLUTELY ADMIRABLE AND INDEED
URGENT TARGET SET BY LESTER
PEARSON THAT UH, DEVELOPED
COUNTRIES SHOULD SPEND .7 percent ON
THEIR GDP ON DEVELOPMENT AID.
I BELIEVE THE CANADIAN FIGURE
IN 2004 WAS .27 percent THE EU AVERAGE
IS .35 percent.
SO AGAIN YOU WERE A LITTLE MORE
EUROPEAN THAN WE ARE.
UM, I'M NOT GOING TO GO DOWN
THE WHOLE LIST OF DOMESTIC
POLICIES BUT INSTEAD I WANT TO
TAKE YOU WITH ME ON A THOUGHT
EXPERIMENT.
IMAGINE THAT CONTINENTAL DRIFT
WAS REVERSED AND THAT THE
CONTINENTS CAME BACK TOGETHER
AGAIN IN WHAT WAS AS YOU
REMEMBER CALLED PANGEA.
THE CONTINENTS WERE AGAIN
CONTIGUOUS WITHOUT OCEANS AND
THEREFORE CANADA WAS NEXT TO
THE EUROPEAN UNION.
WOULD CANADA APPLY TO JOIN THE
EU?
WOULD THE EU WELCOME CANADA AS
A MEMBER?
YOU BET IT WOULD.
JUST LIKE THAT.
IN A FLASH.
CANADA WOULD QUALIFY MUCH MORE
EASILY THAN ROMANIA WHICH IS
ABOUT TO JOIN THE EU.
FAR, FAR MORE EASILY THAN THE
UKRAINE.
INCOMPARABLY MORE EASILY THAN
TURKEY WHICH IS NOW ACCEPTED AS
A CANDIDATE MEMBER OF THE
EUROPEAN UNION.
CANADA WOULD BE WELCOMED WITH
OPEN ARMS.
IT FULFILS ALREADY, OVER
FULFILS WHAT ARE CALLED THE
COPENHAGEN CRITERIA FOR
MEMBERSHIP OF THE EUROPEAN
UNION WHICH HAS TO DO WITH
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE, THE RULE
OF LAW, FREE MARKET ECONOMY.
CANADA IS RICH AND WE NEED RICH
COUNTRIES IN THE EUROPEAN UNION
AT THE MOMENT TO BEEF UP OUR
BUDGET BECAUSE WE'RE GETTING A
LOT OF POOR ONES IN AND CANADA
HAS ANOTHER UNIQUE ADVANTAGE
AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE
IN EUROPE AND HAVE BEEN HAVING
ON AND OFF FOR ABOUT 700 YEARS
IS THAT THE BRITISH AND FRENCH
HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY AGREEING
ON ALMOST ANYTHING.
Smiling, he continues I'M NOT SURE IF THIS SOUNDS
VAGUELY FAMILIAR BUT CERTAINLY
THE ONE THING THE BRITISH AND
FRENCH COULD AGREE ON WAS THAT
CANADA SHOULD JOIN THE EUROPEAN
UNION.
I'VE READ A DESCRIPTION OF
CANADA AS BEING A MULTICULTURAL
SOCIETY IN A BILINGUAL
FRAMEWORK.
WELCOME TO BRUSSELS.
WHAT WOULD CANADA HAVE TO
CHANGE IN THIS PANGEA VARIANT
IF IT WERE TO BECOME A MEMBER
OF THE EUROPEAN UNION?
WELL, NOT MUCH, ACTUALLY, THERE
WOULD BE SOME LEGAL CHANGES IN
THE 80,000 PAGES OF THE EU's
ACQUIS COMMUNAUTAIRE TO THE
MARKET ECONOMY BUT ONLY AT THE
EDGES.
THERE WOULD I THINK BE SOME
HEALTH AND SAFETY PROVISIONS.
PROBABLY IN YOUR CASE
CONCERNING ICE HOCKEY WHICH
WOULD DOUBTLESS PRODUCE MUCH
FURY AMONG THE LOCAL
POPULATIONS.
I THINK ACTUALLY THE GREATEST
CHANGE CANADA WOULD HAVE TO
MAKE WOULD BE AT ITS BORDER
WITH THE UNITED STATES.
IN THE
LAST FEW YEARS AS I UNDERSTAND
IT IT'S THE UNITED STATES WHICH
HAS BEEN DEMANDING MORE BORDER
CONTROLS WITH ON THE BORDER TO
CANADA.
WHAT THE
EU DOES TO ITS NEW MEMBER
STATES, TO ITS SUCCESSION
COUNTRIES IS TO SAY WE'LL HAVE
OPEN BORDERS WITH YOU AS LONG
AS YOU CLOSE YOUR BORDERS TO
YOUR NEIGHBOURS ACTUALLY, THE
EU WOULD BE ASKING CANADA TO
IMPOSE TIGHTER BORDER CONTROLS
ON ITS FRONTIER TO THE UNITED
STATES BUT WITH THOSE FEW
EXCEPTIONS CANADA WOULD VERY
QUICKLY BECOME A MEMBER OF THE
EUROPEAN UNION.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'M NOT I
THINK PRIMARILY TRYING TO SAY
SOMETHING ABOUT CANADA HERE BUT
I THINK I AM OR I'M NOT SURE
WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY ABOUT
CANADA BUT I AM SURE WHAT I'M
SAYING ABOUT EUROPE NAMELY THAT
TO LOOK AT CANADA FROM EUROPE
IS TO SEE THAT A CERTAIN IDEA
OF EUROPE WHICH IS VERY POPULAR
IN EUROPE AT THE MOMENT THE
HABERMAS DERRIDA IDEA OF EUROPE
AS THE NORTH AMERICA DEFINED BY
A CLAIMED DISTINCTIVENESS OF A
SET OF ATTITUDES AND VALUES AS
POLICIES IS SIMPLY A NON-
STARTER.
IT DOES NOT HOLD UP AND CANADA
IS THE PROOF OF THAT.
INDEED THE MORE I LOOK AT THE
EVIDENCE ON VALUES THE MORE I
THINK THAT IT IS HIGHLY SUSPECT
EXERCISE EVER TO ASSOCIATE
GEOGRAPHY WITH VALUES.
GEOGRAPHY WITH VALUES.
IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE CLAIMS
THAT ARE ROUTINELY MADE FOR
ENGLISH VALUES, BRITISH VALUES,
EUROPEAN VALUES, AMERICAN
VALUES, ASIAN VALUES, CANADIAN
VALUES, THEY VERY QUICKLY
BECOME PROBLEMATIC IN TWO
RESPECTS.
FIRSTLY THEY CONFUSE THE
PRESCRIPTIVE AND THE
DESCRIPTIVE.
THE NORMATIVE AND THE
DESCRIPTIVE.
WE SAY EUROPEAN VALUES ARE...
FAIR PLAY, JUSTICE, TOLERANCE,
LOVE OF FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, AND
IGNORE THE FACT THAT
EMPIRICALLY, DESCRIPTIVELY A
GREAT MANY EUROPEANS IN OUR
VERY RECENT PAST AND EVEN TODAY
DO NOT SHARE THOSE VALUES.
THEY HAVE VERY DIFFERENT VALUES
IN FACT, FOR MOST OF THE 20th
CENTURY EUROPEAN HISTORY WAS A
CONTEST BETWEEN THE VALUES OF
LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, OF COMMUNISM
AND OF FASCISM AND IT WAS BY NO
MEANS CLEAR FOR MOST OF THE
20th CENTURY THAT LIBERAL
DEMOCRACY WOULD WIN.
ADOLF HITLER WAS AS MUCH A
EUROPEAN AS WAS VOLTAIRE AND
EVEN TODAY THE RANGE OF ACTUAL
EXISTING EUROPEAN VALUES IS
VERY WIDE.
AND SECONDLY, SUCH CLAIMS ARE
DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE THEY
ALWAYS INVOLVE AT LEAST
IMPLICITLY SOME CLAIM OF
EXCLUSIVITY.
IF I SAY THESE ARE EUROPEAN
VALUES SOMEHOW THE IMPLICATION
IS THAT THEY ARE PECULIAR TO
EUROPE AND THEY ARE NOT
PECULIAR TO EUROPE.
THEY ARE ACTUALLY VALUES WIDELY
SHARED.
AH, YOU MAY SAY BUT AT LEAST
THESE ARE VALUES WHICH ARE
SHARED BY CANADIANS AND
EUROPEANS BUT NOT BY AMERICANS
NOT BY THE UNITED STATES THE
EVIDENCE SIMPLY DOES NOT BEAR
THIS UP.
IF YOU DISAGGREGATE THE
EVIDENCE FROM THE UNITED STATES
AND IMAGINE WE'RE BACK IN
PANGEA NEW ENGLAND OR
MASSACHUSETTS COULD JOIN THE
EUROPEAN UNION TOMORROW.
BLUE STATE AMERICA TO A VERY
LARGE DEGREE HAS A CONGRUENCE
OF VALUES AND APPROACHES TO
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS WITH
OURS.
UH, THAT'S A SLIGHTLY SWEEPING
STATEMENT.
THERE ARE SOME AREAS IN WHICH
EVEN IN THE BLUE STATES THERE
IS A DIFFERENCE, ATTITUDES TO
RELIGION FOR EXAMPLE.
THERE ARE A COUPLE OF RESPONSES
DONE IN THE POLLING DONE BY
MICHAEL ADAMS IN HIS BOOK
FIRE AND ICE
FOR EXAMPLE
ABOUT PATRIARCHY AND SO ON
WHERE THERE'S A DISTINCTIVE
GROUPING WHERE EVEN THE MOST
LIBERAL AMERICAN STATE IS MORE
CONSERVATIVE THAN THE MOST
CONSERVATIVE, UH, CANADIAN
PROVINCE OR EUROPEAN COUNTRY.
BUT ON THE WHOLE THERE IS A
CONTINUUM.
He turns a page and continues LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE TRUTH
IS, THE TRUTH IS THAT THERE IS
A SET, A SPECTRUM, AN EXTENDED
FAMILY OF WESTERN DEVELOPED,
CAPITALIST, DEMOCRATIC
SOCIETIES AND WE ALL BELONG IN
THAT SET AND SPECTRUM AND
EXTENDED FAMILY.
WITHIN THAT EXTENDED FAMILY
THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN
AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.
THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN.
SEYMOUR MARTIN LIPSET WROTE A
FAMOUS BOOK ABOUT THIS MANY
DECADES AGO THE AMERICAN
EXCEPTIONALISM HAS HAD TO DO
WITH RELIGION PARTICULARLY TO
SOME EXTENT WITH GUNS, WITH A
CHOICE, THE PRIVILEGES, THE
INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY OVER SOCIAL
EQUALITY.
THAT AMERICAN ACCEPTUALISM HAS
IN SOME RESPECTS, THAT
DIVERGENCE WITHIN THE EXTENDED
FAMILY HAS TO SOME EXTENT
BECOME MORE ACUTE IN TWO
RESPECTS.
FIRSTLY, IN WHAT HAS BEEN
CALLED THE CULTURAL COUNTER
REVOLUTION WHICH STARTED TO
SOME EXTENT IN THE 1970s AND
GAINED STRENGTH IN THE 1980s
AND 1990s IN OTHER WORDS
CULTURAL CONSERVATISM AND
SECONDLY, IN FOREIGN POLICY
PARTICULARLY SINCE 2001 WITH A
UNILATERALIST APPROACH FROM
WASHINGTON EMPHASISING THE USE
OF MILITARY FORCE.
UM, WITH OR WITHOUT THE
SANCTION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW
IN THE WAR ON TERROR.
THIS HAS DEMONSTRABLY ALIENATED
VERY SIGNIFICANT PARTS OF
PUBLIC OPINION ACROSS THE
GLOBE.
THE EVIDENCE IS COMPELLING FROM
THE LATEST PEW POLLING FROM THE
UNITED STATES BUT IT IS ALSO OF
COURSE ALIENATED MANY AMERICANS
MANY OF YOU WILL KNOW THE
FAMOUS FINDING THAT ON THE 3rd
OF NOVEMBER 2004 THE DAY AFTER
THE LAST U.S. ELECTION THE
NUMBER OF HITS ON THE
IMMIGRATION CANADA WEBSITE WENT
UP FROM 20,000 TO 116,000
DEMONSTRATING THAT THERE ARE
MANY SPIRITUAL CANADIANS SOUTH
OF THE BORDER.
BUT I
WOULD SAY THAT ONE NEEDS TO
DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE AREA OF
SOCIOCULTURAL VALUES WHERE
I THINK
CHANGE WOULD BE MORE GRADUAL
AND DIFFERENT, MORE ENDEARING
PARTICULARLY IN THE RED STATES
AND THAT OF ECONOMIC AND
POLITICAL INTERESTS BETWEEN
VALUES AND INTERESTS.
I FIND IT VERY STRIKING THAT
THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IN ITS
SECOND TERM HAS BEEN WELL
UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THIS
DIFFERENCE HAVING JUST WON AN
ELECTION TO A SIGNIFICANT
DEGREE BY APPEALING TO THOSE
CULTURALLY CONSERVATIVE VALUES
AND TO THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT
ALMOST THE FIRST THING
PRESIDENT BUSH DID WHEN WE CAME
BACK INTO THE OVAL OFFICE WAS
TO SAY...
He makes a pause and continues WE HAVE TO MAKE SOME
SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN OUR
FOREIGN POLICY.
WE HAVE TO REPAIR OUR
RELATIONSHIP TO EUROPE.
I'M SEEING THIS NOW FROM A
EUROPEAN POINT OF VIEW AND
ACTUALLY SINCE HIS RE-ELECTION,
IN THE SECOND TERM THE BUSH
ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN MAJOR
STRIDES TO REPAIR THE
RELATIONSHIP WITH EUROPE.
HAS ACCEPTED THE EUROPEAN UNION
AS A PARTNER, HAS SPOKEN A VERY
DIFFERENT LANGUAGE AND I TAKE
THAT AS AN INTERESTING AND
ENCOURAGING UM, EVIDENCE OF
REALISM BASED ON A SOBER
ANALYSIS OF AN AMERICAN
INTERESTS AND I THINK WE CAN BE
OPTIMISTIC ABOUT FURTHER SUCH
CHANGE, ADJUSTMENT IN AMERICAN
FOREIGN POLICY AFTER THE NEXT
ELECTION SO A DISTINCTION THEN,
AN IMPORTANT DISTINCTION
BETWEEN VALUES AND INTERESTS.
WE COULD TALK SOME MORE PERHAPS
ABOUT U.S. POLICY AND HOW IT
MIGHT CHANGE IN THE DISCUSSION
PERIOD ALTHOUGH I HOPE WE WON'T
SPEND THE WHOLE OF THE
DISCUSSION PERIOD TALKING ABOUT
THE UNITED STATES.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALWAYS
FRUSTRATES ME ABOUT TRAVELLING
AROUND EUROPE IS THAT THE ONE
THING ALL EUROPEANS HAVE IN
COMMON IS AMERICA.
IF YOU GO AND LECTURE IN THE
LARGEST LECTURE HALL IN OXFORD
OR THE SMALLEST TOWN HALL IN
EASTERN SLOVAKIA THE ONE THING
YOU CAN BE SURE OF IS THAT
EVERYONE WILL KNOW THE MAIN
PLAYERS IN WASHINGTON, CONDI
AND CHANEY AND BUSH AND POWELL
DOWN TO THE THIRD DEGREE OF
NEOCOM UM, AND WE WANT TO TALK
ABOUT IT ENDLESSLY.
AT THE SAME TIME...
He drinks a glass of water and continues
AT THE SAME TIME THERE HAS BEEN
ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT NAMELY...
THAT THE VERY NOTION AND
SUBSTANCE OF WHAT WE USED TO
CALL THE WEST HAS BEEN
RADICALLY PUT INTO QUESTION.
THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR THE
UNITED STATES, CANADA, BRITAIN
AND WESTERN EUROPE BUT I
EMPHASISE ONLY WESTERN EUROPE,
NOT CENTRAL OR EASTERN EUROPE
UNDERSTOOD THEMSELVES TO BE
PART OF AN OPERATIONAL
COMMUNITY WHICH WE CALLED THE
WEST.
THAT COMMUNITY NO LONGER EXISTS
AND THIS IS THE LARGER
FRAMEWORK IN WHICH WE HAVE TO
SEE THIS DISCUSSION.
THE COLD WAR WEST AS WE KNEW IT
THEN HAS CEASED TO EXIST I
THINK FOR THREE MAIN REASONS.
FIRSTLY, BECAUSE WE ARE NO
LONGER HELD TOGETHER BY THE
COMMON ENEMY.
THE SOVIET BLOCK, THE THREAT OF
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM, THE
RED ARMY IN THE CENTRE OF
EUROPE.
WE HAD OUR RISE REPEATEDLY
THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR.
TRANS-ATLANTIC DISAGREEMENTS,
CANADIAN AMERICAN DISAGREEMENTS
BUT WE WERE ALWAYS PULLED BACK
TOGETHER AGAIN BY THE COMMON
ENEMY.
THE OTHER DAY LORD CARRINGTON
THE FORMER BRITISH FOREIGN
SECRETARY SAID TO ME HE SAID
YOU KNOW...
IF ONLY WE HAD BREZHNEV BACK.

[laughter]

Timothy continues HE WAS ALWAYS THE ANSWER.
PULLED US BACK.
WE ARE NO LONGER HELD TOGETHER
AND HISTORICALLY ALLIANCES HAVE
BEEN HELD TOGETHER BY COMMON
ENEMIES AND HAVE TENDED TO FALL
APART WHEN THE COMMON ENEMY HAS
DISAPPEARED AND TERROR OR
TERRORISM IS NOT A COMMON ENEMY
THAT IS PULLING US TOGETHER
BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SINGLE,
CLEAR, WELL DEFINED MONOLITHIC
THREAT AND IT'S NOT IN THE
CENTRE OF EUROPE SO THAT
ACTUALLY OUR PERCEPTIONS OF
TERROR AND IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO
COPE WITH IT HAVE TENDED TO
PULL US FURTHER APART RATHER
THAN PULL US TOGETHER.
SECONDLY, THE WEST IS IN
QUESTION AND IN CRISIS BECAUSE
IT HAS A PROBLEM OF SUCCESS.
THE FACT IS THAT WHAT WE
CONSIDERED TO BE THE CENTRAL
WESTERN WAYS OF DOING THINGS
SUMMARISE THE NOTION OF LIBERAL
DEMOCRACY HAVE THROUGH OUR OWN
SUCCESS PASSED FAR BEYOND THE
HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL WEST.
IN 1950 OF THE 80 SOVEREIGN
STATES IN THE WORLD ONLY 22
WERE ESTABLISHED LIBERAL
DEMOCRACIES AND THEY WERE
OVERWHELMINGLY IN THE
HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL WEST.
BY 1973 39 OF A MUCH LARGER
NUMBER OF SOVEREIGN STATES WERE
DEMOCRACIES BUT STILL THEY WERE
MAINLY IN THE HISTORICAL WEST.
TODAY, DEPENDING ON HOW YOU
COUNT THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE
117 OR 118 DEMOCRACIES IN A
WORLD WHICH HAS 190 FREE
SOVEREIGN STATES.
WE JUST WELCOMED MONTENEGRO TO
THAT NUMBER.
117 DEMOCRACIES.
INDIA, TAIWAN, MUCH OF LATIN
AMERICA, SOUTH AFRICA, OTHER
SMALLER AFRICAN COUNTRIES.
WE -- WE HAVE THE PROBLEM OF
SUCCESS IN THE SENSE THAT
THINGS THAT WE CONSIDERED TO BE
TYPICALLY WESTERN HAVE NOW
PASSED FAR BEYOND THE WEST.
WE ALREADY LIVE IN WHAT I CALL
THE POST WEST AND INCIDENTALLY
THE CLASSICAL DEFINITION OF THE
WEST DID NOT INCLUDE CENTRAL
AND EASTERN EUROPE.
FROM OSWALD SPENGLER TO HENRY
KISSINGER THE WEST WAS
CLASSICALLY NORTH AMERICA AND
WESTERN EUROPE BUT NOT CENTRAL
AND EASTERN EUROPE SO INCLUDING
CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE
ALREADY GOES BEYOND THE
TRADITIONAL WEST.
THE THIRD REASON WHY THE
WEST AS
WE HAVE KNOWN IT FOR A LONG
TIME SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR
IS IN CRISIS AND IN QUESTION IS
THE EXTRAORDINARY WORLD
HISTORICAL RENAISSANCE OF ASIA.
THE EXTRAORDINARY RISE OF INDIA
AND CHINA.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN WE ARE SO
USED TO THE IDEA THAT THE WEST
IS THE MAIN LOCUS OF POWER WITH
MILITARY AND ECONOMIC OF
SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL
MODERNITY THAT WE FORGET THAT
IT WAS NOT EVER THUS AND THAT
IN THE YEAR 1500 CHINA WAS MORE
POWERFUL AND MORE MODERN THAN
WE WERE AND THAT IT WILL NOT
EVER BE THUS AND ACTUALLY THAT
WE ARE WITNESSING IN OUR OWN
TIME ONE OF THOSE GREAT
HISTORICAL SHIFTS WHERE THE
LOCUS OF POWER AND POTENTIALLY
THE LOCUS OF MODERNITY IS
SHIFTING FROM WEST BACK TO THE
EAST TO CHINA AND INDIA AND
THAT MAY BE A LONG PROCESS BUT
IT'S A PROCESS HAPPENING BEFORE
OUR EYES.
AS LATE AS 1800 SOMETHING LIKE
80 percent OF THE INDUSTRIAL
PRODUCTION IN THE WORLD WAS IN
ASIA AND I GUESS BY 2030 OR
2040 IT'LL BE WELL UP TO THE 40
OR 50 percent MARK AGAIN.
AND THAT AGAIN FUNDAMENTALLY
CHANGES THE WAY IN WHICH WE SEE
THE POSITION OF THE WEST.
SO A TRIPLE CRISIS.
THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE COMMON
ENEMY.
THE PROBLEM OF SUCCESS.
AND THE RENAISSANCE OF ASIA AND
THE QUESTION THIS POSES TO US
CANADIANS, AMERICANS,
EUROPEANS, BRITS, IS WHAT BEING
IN THE POST WEST IS GOING TO BE
OUR OPERATIONAL COMMUNITY AND
THE LAST MAJOR POINT I WANT TO
PUT TO YOU THIS EVENING IS THAT
I DON'T THINK THAT IN OUR
BEWILDERMENT AND CONFUSION IN
THE NEW WORLD DISORDER WE
SHOULD STRIVE TO RECREATE THE
WEST.
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD STRIVE
TO RECREATE JUST A WIDER EURO-
ATLANTIC COMMUNITY.
I THINK WE SHOULD BE MORE
AMBITIOUS THAN THAT.
THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHER
INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATIONS
WILL CONTINUE TO BE OF GREAT
IMPORTANCE AND WE SHOULD USE
THEM AND TURN TO THEM WHEREVER
AND WHENEVER WE CAN.
BUT IN MY VIEW THE CRUCIAL
OPERATIONAL COMMUNITY FOR THE
NEXT 10 OR 20 YEARS FOR
CANADIANS, FOR BRITS, FOR
EUROPEANS AND FOR AMERICANS
SHOULD BE THE COMMUNITY OF
DEMOCRACIES.
A COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES THAT
ALREADY EXTENDS FAR BEYOND THE
TRADITIONAL WEST.
THERE IS AS SOME OF YOU WILL
KNOW SOMETHING FORMALLY CALLED
THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES IT
WAS FOUNDED BY MADELEINE
ALBRIGHT AND THE POLISH FOREIGN
MINISTER BRONISLAW GEREMEK AT
THE END OF THE LAST CENTURY IN
WARSAW BUT IT EXISTS PRETTY
MUCH ONLY ON PAPER OR AS WE NOW
SAY ON THE WEB.
IT ISN'T REALLY AN OPERATIONAL
COMMUNITY AND I THINK ONE OF
THE KEY QUESTIONS FOR THAT IS
HOW COULD WE OPERATIONALISE THE
COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES?
IF WE LOOK AT WHAT IT'S
COMPOSED OF WE SEE VARIOUS
SIGNIFICANT PARTS.
WE SEE THE UNITED STATES.
WE SEE THE EUROPEAN UNION WHICH
INCREASINGLY IS BEGINNING TO
SPEAK WITH A MORE COHERENT,
WITH ONE VOICE AND WE CAN TALK
ABOUT THAT IN DISCUSSION.
WE SEE A LOOSE GROUPING OF WHAT
ONE MIGHT RISK IN CALLING EXTRA
WESTERN DEMOCRACIES OF THE
ANGLOSPHERE.
INDIA VERY IMPORTANTLY THE
LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.
SOUTH AFRICA, AUSTRALIA, NEW
ZEALAND, WE SEE A NUMBER OF
SMALLER DEMOCRACIES IN ASIA AND
AFRICA AND WE SEE A VERY
SIGNIFICANT GROUPING OF
DEMOCRACIES IN LATIN AMERICA.
I HAVE IN MY BOOK THE UH,
FREEDOM HOUSE MAP OF FREEDOM IN
THE WORLD AND IT'S VERY
INTERESTING TO SEE THAT BESIDE
THE TWO GREAT BLOCKS OF EUROPE
AND UNITED STATES AND THE
ANGLOSPHERE THE LARGEST SINGLE
BLOCK OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY IS
IN LATIN AMERICA.
WHERE WOULD CANADA FIT INTO
THAT PICTURE?
I SUSPECT...
REARING BACK FROM MY PANGEA
MODEL THAT CANADA IS NOT GOING
TO EUROPEAN UNION FOR REASONS
OF GEOGRAPHY AND NOT THE UNITED
STATES FOR REASONS OF HISTORY
BUT MIGHT I SUGGEST IT WOULD BE
VERY DESIRABLE IF CANADA GOT A
LITTLE CLOSER TO BOTH AND I
THINK THERE ARE SPECIFIC IDEAS
THAT COULD BE EXPLORED IN BOTH
RESPECTS.
I MYSELF IF I MAY SAY SO WOULD
LIKE TO SEE CANADA...
EVEN MORE PLAYING THE ROLE OF A
BRIDGE OR HINGE PARTICULARLY
BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND
THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE
ANGLOSPHERE DEMOCRACIES.
I ALSO THINK IF I MAY SAY SO
THAT CANADA HAS SOME VERY
PARTICULAR ASSETS AND
ATTRIBUTES THAT IT COULD BRING
TO THE WORK OF SUCH COMMUNITY
OF DEMOCRACIES.
LET ME SUGGEST JUST THREE.
ONE IS YOUR EXPERIENCE, YOUR
TRADITION, YOUR KNOW-HOW, NOT
JUST IN PEACEKEEPING BUT IN
PEACEMAKING.
THE SECOND IS...
THE FIELD OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
WHAT DO WE THINK OF WHEN WE
THINK OF CANADA?
WE THINK OF THAT EXTRAORDINARY
EXPANSIVE GLORY OF NATURE UH,
TO BE TREASURED AND SHEPHERDED.
SO THE ENVIRONMENT.
A THIRD IF I MAY SUGGEST WHERE
I MYSELF WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE
TO HEAR MORE FROM CANADA IS A
FIELD THAT SEEMS TO BE VERY
IMPORTANT WHICH IS THE FIELD OF
THE PROMOTION OF DEMOCRACY AND
GOOD GOVERNMENT.
I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY
UNFORTUNATE IF DEMOCRACY
PROMOTION WOULD SEEM TO BE
ESSENTIALLY SOMETHING DONE JUST
BY THE UNITED STATES THAT WOULD
IF I MAY SAY SO RISK GIVING
DEMOCRACY A BAD NAME.
I THINK
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT
EUROPEANS, BRITS, CANADIANS AND
OTHERS BECOME INVOLVED IN
PROMOTING WHAT IS AFTER ALL AT
THE CORE OF OUR SHARED VALUES
BUT DOING SO SOMETIMES PERHAPS
IN A MORE NUANCED TO LONG-TERM
WAY WHICH PAID AS MUCH
ATTENTION TO ELEMENTS LIKE THE
ROLE OF LAW, THE ROLE OF CIVIL
SOCIETY AND GOOD GOVERNMENTS AS
TO THE MERE FACT OF HOLDING
ELECTIONS.
I MYSELF HAVE BEEN A GOVERNOR
OF SOMETHING CALLED THE
WESTMINSTER FOUNDATION FOR
DEMOCRACY WHICH [Unclear] SMALL
WAY FROM BRITAIN.
IT WOULD BE WONDERFUL TO SEE A
CANADIAN FOUNDATION FOR
DEMOCRACY AND I THINK THAT
THERE ARE A LOT OF PARTS OF THE
WORLD WHERE CANADIANS COULD ACT
WITHOUT ANY OF THE BAGGAGE THAT
AMERICANS HAVE, THAT GERMANS
HAVE, THAT THE BRITISH HAVE,
TOO.
AND I ALSO THINK THAT THE
CANADIAN EXPERIENCE OF
FEDERALISM, OF COPING WITH
ISSUES OF LANGUAGES AND
MINORITIES, OF COMBINING
CHARTERS OF RIGHTS WITH AN
INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY AND A
SUBTLE SYSTEM OF FEDERAL
GOVERNMENTS HAVE ENORMOUS
POTENTIAL TO MANY CONFLICT
RIDDEN PARTS OF THE WORLD.
THESE ARE ONLY SUGGESTIONS,
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I WOULD
BE VERY INTERESTED TO HEAR YOUR
OWN ANSWERS AND THOUGHTS ON
THAT IN DISCUSSION.
IN CONCLUDING PERHAPS I COULD
SAY JUST THIS AND COME BACK TO
WHERE I STARTED...
THAT I THINK CANADIANS AND
EUROPEANS AS PART OF THAT
EXTENDED FAMILY OF WESTERN
DEVELOPED DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES
DO HAVE AN INDEED AN ENORMOUS
AMOUNT IN COMMON INDEED I'M
ALMOST COMING TO FEEL THAT
CANADIANS ARE PERHAPS A BIT TOO
EUROPEAN.
THAT'S TO SAY THAT YOU LIKE US
IF I MAY SAY SO ARE PERHAPS
SOMETIMES A LITTLE TOO
INTROVERTED, TOO CONCERNED WITH
ONE'S OWN PROBLEMS PERHAPS A
LITTLE TOO COMFORTABLE.
ARE WE BOTH CANADIANS AND
EUROPEANS PERHAPS TOO HAPPY TO
WALLOW IN A SORT OF...
MILD BATH OF MORAL SUPERIORITY
TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE
ARROGANCE OF [Unclear] RATHER
THAN DOING SOMETHING BETTER
OURSELVES.
RATHER THAN ACTUALLY STEPPING
UP TO THE PLATE AND SAYING THIS
IS WHAT WE CAN DO TO PURSUE OUR
SHARED VALUES IN A MORE
SOPHISTICATED, A MORE NUANCED,
A MORE SUBTLE, A MORE LAW-
ABIDING WAY BUT NONETHELESS
STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE TO
FIGHT FOR THOSE VALUES.
PERHAPS WE BOTH UNDERNEATH
SHARE A CERTAIN LACK OF
CONFIDENCE, A CERTAIN LACK OF
BELIEF IN OUR OWN CAPACITIES
WHICH ARE VERY CONSIDERABLE IN
OUR OWN POSSIBILITIES IN OUR
POTENTIAL FOR INFLUENCING THE
WORLD FOR THE GOOD.
SO IN THAT SENSE IF I MAY
CONCLUDE IN A SLIGHTLY
PARADOXICAL SPIRIT, AS AN
ENGLISH EUROPEAN I WOULD RATHER
LIKE CANADIANS TO BE A LITTLE
LESS EUROPEAN BUT THEN I'D LIKE
EUROPEANS TO BE A LITTLE LESS
EUROPEAN, TOO.

[laughter]

He concludes THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

[Applause]

Back in the studio, Andrew says IN MY OPINION, WE
CANADIANS REALLY ENJOY OUR
STATUS AS BEING NORTH AMERICANS
BUT NOT BEING AMERICANS AND
THERE IS NOTHING
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE
FRUSTRATING THAN GOING TO
ENGLAND AND HAVING A CAB DRIVER
LISTEN TO MY ACCENT AND THEN HE
ASKS ME WHAT PART OF THE STATES
I'M FROM AND BEING CANADIAN I
POLITELY INFORM THE DRIVER THAT
I'M ACTUALLY FROM OTTAWA
ONTARIO CANADA AND THE DRIVER
POLITELY INFORMS ME THAT HE HAS
RELATIVES IN MANITOBA AND I
THINK TO MYSELF ISN'T IT
OBVIOUS HOW NOT AMERICAN I AM?
I SAY LIEUTENANT.
MY ALPHABET HAS ZED.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME IN SOME
WAYS, JAMAICAN CULTURE WHICH IS
WHERE MY PARENTS ARE FROM IS
ACTUALLY CLOSER TO EUROPE THAN
WE ARE.
THEIR SCHOOLS ARE MUCH CLOSER
TO BRITISH SCHOOLS.
THEY PLAY CRICKET AND SOCCER
AND THEY DRIVE ON THE LEFT HAND
SIDE OF THE ROAD.

Andrew raises his eyebrows and continues
ASH POINTS OUT THAT CANADA AND
AMERICA ARE LIKE TWO SISTERS.
OUR PARENTS ARE FRANCE AND
ENGLAND.
CANADA IS THE SISTER THAT
ALWAYS LISTENED.
WHO ALWAYS HANDED IN HER
HOMEWORK ON TIME.
WHO WEARS SENSIBLE SHOES AND
YES, SHE DID MARRY THAT
TEMPESTUOUS FRANCOPHONE WHO WAS
CONSTANTLY THREATENING TO LEAVE
HER BUT FOR THE MOST PART HER
LIFE WAS QUIET AND STABLE.
AMERICA IS THE SISTER WHO
REBELLED, WHO TOLD DAD TO STUFF
IT.
WHO MOVED OUT OF THE HOUSE IN
HER TEENS.
AND SHE SMOKES AND SHE LISTEN
TO THAT CRAZY ROCK AND ROLL.
AND SHE'S ALWAYS DOMINATING
EVERY CONVERSATION AND SHE
MAKES THESE CRAZY LIFE CHOICES
AND THE WORLD IS MADLY
INFATUATED WITH HER AND
He stresses FURIOUS
WITH HER.
Andrew continues AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH MOM AND
DAD TELL US THAT THEY LOVE US
AND NEED US AND WE'RE JUST LIKE
THEM WE BOTH KNOW THAT IT'S OUR
SISTER WHO GETS ALL OF THE
ATTENTION AND SOMEHOW WE'RE
ALWAYS RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING
THE FAMILY TOGETHER.
IF YOU WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT
WHAT TIMOTHY GARTON ASH THINKS
ABOUT THIS COMPLEX SITUATION ON
THE WORLD TODAY HERE ARE A FEW
MORE INSIGHTS AS HE IS FLYING
SOLO.

[Theme music plays]

On a black screen, colourful lines and waves cross in the centre and distort as the music plays. A title reads "Flying Solo."

Next to a negative image of Timothy than then turns into positive, a caption reads "Timothy Garton Ash is a professor of European Studies, University of Oxford. Author of the recently published book, ‘Free World; America, Europe, and the Surprising Future of the West."

The logo of the program shows a group of people. It reads "Free World."

Giving an interview, Timothy says IF IT IS
NO POSSIBLE FOR MUSLIMS TO FEEL
AT HOME IN EUROPE THEN OUR
SOCIETIES WILL BE TORN APART.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Us and Them III."

Timothy continues ALREADY
WE'VE HAD THE MADRID BOMBINGS,
THE LONDON BOMBINGS, THE MURDER

Timothy says OF THEO
VAN GOGH, THAT'S A MINORITY, AN
EXTREME MINORITY BUT IT
PRODUCES A REACTION FROM THE
MAJORITY ITSELF WHO IS QUITE
EXTREME AND OFTEN XENOPHOBIC
AND YOU RISK GETTING A DOWNWARD
VICIOUS SPIRAL.
MORE ALIENATION, MORE ISLAMIC
EXTREMISM, MORE XENOPHOBIC
REACTIONS FROM THE UM, NATIVE
BORN POPULATION.
WE HAVEN'T SEEN OURSELVES AS AN
IMMIGRANT SOCIETY.
WE HAVE MUCH MORE DIFFICULTY
THINKING ABOUT OURSELVES AS AN
IMMIGRANT SOCIETIES.
WE'RE MUCH LESS GOOD AT MAKING
IMMIGRANTS FEEL AT HOME.
THAT'S POINT NUMBER ONE.
POINT NUMBER TWO EUROPE
TRADITIONALLY HAS DEFINED
ITSELF HISTORICALLY AS A
CHRISTENDOM.
THAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THE
NOTION OF EUROPE WHICH PASSED
TO THE SECOND AND 15th CENTURY.
CHRISTENDOM AGAINST THE ISLAM
FOR PIUS THE SECOND IN THE 15th
CENTURY THE MUSLIM EUROPEAN IS
A CONFLICTION IN TERMS.
IT'S LIKE SAYING A MAN WOMAN
AND SOMEWHERE AT THE BACK OF
OUR HEADS THAT STEREOTYPE IS
STILL PRESENT EVEN THOUGH
EUROPE IS THE MOST SECULAR
CONTINENT ON EARTH AND SO WE
HAVE TO MAKE A REAL LEAP OF
IMAGINATION AND A GENEROSITY OF
SPIRIT TO ENABLE MUSLIMS TO
FEEL AT HOME AS EUROPEANS.

The caption changes to "Reason."

Timothy says YOU'RE
MORE LIKELY TO REACH WORKABLE
UNDERSTANDINGS BETWEEN GROUPS
IN A
SOCIETY, BETWEEN STATES,
BETWEEN ORGANISATIONS IF YOU
TALK THE LANGUAGE OF INTEREST.
YOU DEFINE YOUR INTERESTS, I'LL
DEFINE MINE AND THEN WE'LL SEE
WHERE THE COMPROMISE CAN BE
FOUND, WHERE THE DEAL CAN BE
STRUCK AND SO IT'S RATHER A
PRAGMATIC ARGUMENT BUT UH, UM,
THE DEBATE ABOUT VALUES
FASCINATING THOUGH IT IS
DOESN'T ACTUALLY LEAD TO
OPERATIONAL UNDERSTANDINGS, TO
WORKABLE DEALS WHEREAS I THINK
WE TALK ABOUT INTERESTS DOES.

The caption changes to "History."

Timothy says I WAS IN
KOSOVO IN THE LATE 1990s WHEN
IT WAS STILL DOMINATED BY THE
SERBS.
BUT 90 percent
OF THE POPULATION WERE
ALBANIAN.
AND I SAID TO THE SERBIAN
GOVERNOR OF KOSOVO PERHAPS WE
CAN START THE CONVERSATION BY
IF YOU JUST TELL ME WHAT IS THE
CURRENT ETHNIC MIX OF KOSOVO.
I KNEW IT WAS 90 percent ALBANIAN AND
HIS ANSWER WAS IN THE 12th
CENTURY THE SERBS WERE THE
MAJORITY AND SO FOR HIM THERE
WAS NO FRONTIER BETWEEN PAST
AND PRESENT.
UH, THE 12th CENTURY AND THE
20th CENTURY EXISTED SIDE BY
SIDE, PAST AND PRESENT WERE ONE
AND THAT IS A PATHOLOGY.
THAT IS THE SYMPTOM OF A SICK
SOCIETY IN WHICH THE PAST IS
EVER PRESENT.
YOU ARE HAUNTED BY HISTORY AND
IN A HEALTHY SOCIETY YOU KNOW
YOUR HISTORY BUT YOU ALSO KNOW
THAT IT WAS THE PAST AND NOT
THE PRESENT AND THAT THERE WAS
A LINE BETWEEN PAST AND PRESENT
SO UH, I THINK THAT THERE IS A
HEALTHY SOCIETIES KNOWN THEIR
HISTORY BUT ALSO KNOW THAT IT
IS SOMETHING OF THE PAST AND IF
THE PAST AND THE PRESENT ARE
ONE IN YOUR OWN IMAGINATION
THAT'S A SYMPTOM OF A DISEASED
SOCIETY AND A SOCIETY THAT IS
ACTUALLY VULNERABLE TO FASCISM
AND TO WAR.

The caption changes to "Virture."

Timothy says YOU
REMEMBER THE GREAT EXCHANGE IN
GALILEO GALILEE WHEN GALILEO'S
DISAPPOINTED DISCIPLE SAYS
UNHAPPY THE LAND THAT HAS NO
HEROES.
AND GALILEO REPLIES UNHAPPY THE
LAND THAT HAS A NEED OF HEROES.
OF COURSE ALL THE WORLD SHOULD
BE CANADA WHERE YOU HAVE NO
NEED OF HEROES WHICH IS A HAPPY
COUNTRY BUT THERE IS A
DIFFICULT QUESTION WHICH IS
WHETHER THAT SORT OF LIBERAL
DEMOCRACY IS NOT ITSELF BUILT
ON SOME SORT OF IDEA OF VIRTUE
IN OTHER WORDS SOME
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IT COULD BE
OTHERWISE, SOME CONSCIOUSNESS
OF TRAGEDY OR HISTORY, OF
DIFFICULTY WHICH IS THERE
HISTORICALLY IN THE HISTORY OF
CANADA.
CANADA IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO
THINGS THAT ARE WORSE.
AND I SOMETIMES WORRY THAT NOW
WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE
TAKE THE BENEFITS, THE UNHEROIC
BENEFITS OF NOBLE DEMOCRACY FOR
GRANTED AND THEY KNOW THAT
OTHER THING AND THAT I THINK IS
ONE OF THE GREAT DANGERS FOR
DEMOCRACY.

Andrew says YOU CAN WATCH THE
ENTIRE INTERVIEW WITH TIMOTHY
GARTON ASH ON OUR WEBSITE AT
www.tvo.org/bigideas.
AND FOR
BIG IDEAS
I'M ANDREW
MOODIE.

[Theme music plays]

The end credits roll.

bigideas@tvo.org

416-484-2746

Big Ideas. Producer, Wodek Szemberg.

Producers, Lara Hindle, Mike Miner, Matt Faulknor.

Logos: TFO, TV, ILC.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2006, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Timothy Garton Ash on Is Canada sufficiently European