Transcript: Canada At War?/Orphan At My Door/Home Children EFP | Sep 19, 2001

(music plays)

A title appears inside the shape of a house: More to Life. Words spin against a red and orange background: Health, Family, Home, Money, Fitness, Life. Fast clips show images related to the previous concepts, such as a dollar bill, a wheat field, and strands of DNA.

In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: "More to life."

Then, Mary Ito sits in a studio with textured yellow walls and the logo of the show in the background, which reads "More to life."

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair. She's wearing a patterned black shirt and a silver pendant necklace.

Mary says HELLO. I'M MARY ITO, AND WELCOME TO "MORE TO LIFE." LATER ON IN THE SHOW, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A LITTLE KNOWN EVENT IN CANADA'S HISTORY. WHEN THOUSANDS OF BRITISH ORPHANS CAME TO CANADA TO LIVE WITH FAMILIES AT THE TURN OF THE CENTURY. FIRST, FAST FORWARD TO THE PRESENT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK RIGHT NOW AT THE TOPIC THAT EVERYONE IS DISCUSSING, WAR, WHEN AND HOW. SINCE THE HORRIFIC TERRORIST ATTACKS ON THE U.S. LAST WEEK, EVERYONE IS WAITING AND THEY'RE BRACING THEMSELVES FOR RETALIATION. WE BROUGHT IN OUR OWN PANEL TO LOOK AT THE QUESTIONS AND ISSUES THAT WE AS CANADIANS FACE. MICHAEL VALPY WRITES ON RELIGION AND ETHICS FOR THE GLOBE AND MAIL, DAVID MUTIMER IS THE ACTING DIRECTOR OF YORK UNIVERSITY CENTRES FOR INTERNATIONAL AND SECURITY STUDIES.

Michael is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short curly gray hair. He's wearing a black suit, white shirt and checked blue tie.
David is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short-cropped gray hair. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit and a black shirt with a clerical collar.

Mary says WE ALSO WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU TODAY. WHAT SHOULD CANADA'S ROLE BE IN RESPONSE TO TERRORISM? IN TORONTO THE NUMBER TO CALL IS 416-484-2727. LONG DISTANCE, YOU CAN CALL TOLL FREE AT 1-888-411-1234. AND WE'RE ALSO TAKING E-MAIL QUESTIONS. MORETOLIFE@TVO.ORG.

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Mary says HELLO TO BOTH OF YOU. THANKS FOR COMING IN. DAVID, LET ME START WITH YOU FIRST. WHY DON'T YOU SET THE SCENE FOR US. WHAT STAGE IS THE U.S. AT RIGHT NOW IN PLANNING A RETALIATION?

The caption changes to "David Mutimer. York University."

David says IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE BEEN VERY IMPRESSED WITH OVER THE LAST WEEK IS THAT THE UNITED STATES HASN'T BEEN MOVING PRECIPITOUSLY. I WAS CONCERNED LAST TUESDAY AND WEDNESDAY AS I STARTED TO LOOK FORWARD AND THINK ABOUT WHAT MIGHT COME NEXT THAT THE VERY UNDERSTANDABLE ANGER WOULD LEAD TO A KIND OF AN IMMEDIATE LASHING OUT BY THE UNITED STATES. WE'VE SEEN THEM DO THAT KIND OF THING BEFORE. IT SEEMS TO ME THEY'RE BEING EXTRAORDINARILY CAREFUL TO ASSEMBLE THEIR EVIDENCE, EVEN THOUGH AT THE MOMENT THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY SHARED IT WITH US AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO START TO SEE SOME OF THIS EVIDENCE PROVIDED PUBLICLY. BUT THEY SEEM TO ME TO BE BUILDING EVIDENCE SO THAT WHATEVER RESPONSE THEY TAKE WILL BE TAKEN ON THE BASIS OF THE BEST INFORMATION THAT THEY... THEY'RE ABLE TO GATHER. SO, THE ANSWER DIRECTLY TO YOUR QUESTION IS, IT WILL REALLY DEPEND ON WHAT IT IS THEY'VE BEEN GATHERING, WHAT IT IS THEY'RE GOING TO BE PLANNING TO DO. AS I SAY, THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY SHARED THAT WITH US YET.

Mary says MICHAEL, DO YOU SEE THIS WAIT AS BEING A GOOD OR A BAD THING? I'VE HEARD MIXED RESPONSE. I'VE HEARD THEY'RE GATHERING UP THE RESOURCES AND THEY'RE GOING TO LAUNCH A MASSIVE ATTACK. OR, NO, IT'S GOING TO BE A TEMPERED RESPONSE BECAUSE THOOEFBL WAITING AND THEY'VE HAD TIME TO THINK THINGS OVER.

The caption changes to "Michael Valpy. Globe and Mail."

Michael says I THINK THAT ANY DELAY IN BLOODSHED AND INEVITABLY, THERE'S GOING TO BE BLOODSHED, IS A GOOD THING. IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS IT'S NOT ONLY A QUESTION OF WHAT YOU DO, IT'S HOW YOU DO IT. AND BECAUSE OF TELEVISION, BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE INFORMED GLOBAL AUDIENCE OUT THERE IN TERMS OF WAR WATCHING. AND YOU HEAR THIS EXPRESSION JUST WAR BEING THROWN AROUND. WELL, JUST WAR CERTAINLY IN TERMS OF CHRISTIAN ETHICS IS A VERY SPECIFIC THING THAT YOU CANNOT DELIBERATELY ATTACK INNOCENT PEOPLE. YOU CANNOT HAVE DELIBERATE PLANS THAT RESULT IN INNOCENT PEOPLE BEING KILLED. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A JUST CAUSE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A JUST WAR DOCTRINE, THIS IS LARGELY CATHOLIC DOCTRINE GOES BACK TO ST. THOMAS ECLINUS AND BEFORE HIM, AUGUSTINE IN THE FIFTH CENTURY THAT THERE HAS TO BE AN EXPECTATION OF SUCCESS, OTHERWISE YOU SIMPLY ADD TO THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED. SO, I THINK THAT AS MUCH AS THE AMERICANS ARE WAITING TO, YOU KNOW, TO MARSHAL THEIR FORCES, THERE'S ALSO A PR CAMPAIGN THAT'S SUBTLEY BEING PUT TOGETHER HERE. WILL WE BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY WHATEVER THEY DO, NOT ONLY TO THEIR OWN PUBLIC BUT TO THE PUBLICS OF THEIR ALLIES, TO CANADIANS, TO EUROPEANS.

Mary says YOU TALK ABOUT A JUST WAR. BUT DOES THAT REALLY APPLY HERE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT A CONVENTIONAL WAR.

Michael says NO. IN FACT, THE BETTER ANALOGY IS THAT IT'S A POLICE ACTION. RATHER THAN A WAR. AND THAT THE INSTRUMENTS OF POLICE ACTION WILL BE USED. HOWEVER, THE CONDITIONS, THE TERMS OF JUST WARFARE, OF JUST VIOLENCE WOULD STILL APPLY, THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE CAN'T...

Mary says THEY SHOULD APPLY YOU FEEL?

Michael says THEY SHOULD APPLY.

Mary says DAVID, DO YOU FEEL THERE SHOULD BE RULES OF WAR IN THIS CASE APPLY?

David says OH, CERTAINLY. I THINK THE WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME, NOT JUST OF THIS BUT OF ANY USE OF MILITARY FORCE, IS TO SAY THAT THERE ARE NO RULES, TO USE VIOLENCE WITHOUT ANY FORM OF RESTRAINT. PERHAPS THE MOST HORRIFYING THING THAT I'VE READ IN THE LAST WEEK WAS A PIECE IN THE WASHINGTON TIMES. AND I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS. IT WASN'T THE POST. IT WAS THE TIMES. THAT WAS COUNSELING THE USES OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. IT JUST STRIKES ME THAT WE NEED THE MOMENT, POSSIBLY MORE THAN EVER, TO BE COUNSELING THE RESTRAINT AND LIMITATIONS ON THE USE OF VIOLENCE. AND I THINK YOUR SHIFT TO POLICE ACTION IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT ONE. I'VE BEEN TRYING IN THE LAST FEW DAYS TO RESIST USING THE WORD "WAR" AND TO TRY AND GET PEOPLE TO STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS AS A WAR. THERE ARE, I THINK, A VARIETY OF REASONS NOT TO WANT TO TALK ABOUT GOING TO WAR AGAINST WHOEVER PERPETRATED THESE, BUT TO RECOGNIZE THEY'RE CRIMINALS AND TO RESPOND TO THEM AS WE WOULD RESPOND TO CRIMINALS, PREFERABLY WITH AS MUCH INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION AS POSSIBLE. BUT IN TERMS OF A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, NOT A WAR.

Michael says I SHOULD ADD, BY THE WAY, THAT THHOELANS WILL TALK ABOUT JUST WAR IS SOMEWHERE HALFWAY BETWEEN A CRUSADE AND pacifism. THERE'S ALSO A PASS IF IIST ARGUE AS WELL, IF YOU REMOVE THE CAUSES OF TERRORISM, YOU RESOLVE IT, WHAT ARE THE CAUSES OF TERRORISM? WELL, IT'S BEEN, TO A LARGE DEGREE, U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

Mary says THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE MICHAEL... MARCUS, SORRY, MARCUS GEE IN THE GLOBE WROTE A COLUMN LAST WEEK AND SAID THIS THEORY OF ROOT CAUSES OF WAR IS A BUNCH OF HOGWASH AND WHAT'S REALLY MOTIVATING THESE TERRORISTS IS JUST PURE HATE.

Michael says NOT ALL GLOBE WRITERS HAVE THE SAME IDEAS.

Mary says WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

Michael says I DISAGREE.

Mary says TOTALLY?

Michael says YES. YES. I MEAN, THERE'S... IF IT WAS SIMPLY BIN LADEN, THE NUMBER ONE SUSPECT, AND HIS HATE, THEN MAYBE, YES, BUT, I MEAN, THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS, THE CAMERA PHOTOGRAPHS JUST AFTER THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE OF PEOPLE DANCING IN THE STREETS IN OLD JERUSALEM, I MEAN, THAT'S NOT JUST HATE. THOSE ARE PEOPLE WHO FEEL WRONGED, WHO FEEL THAT THEY'VE BEEN THE VICTIMS OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. SO THERE'S... I MEAN, THERE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP VOLUNTEERING TO WORK WITH BIN LADEN'S ORGANIZATIONS AND OTHER MILITANT OR EXTREMIST ORGANIZATIONS. THEY FEEL AGGRIEVED, WHICH IS NOT TO JUSTIFY THEM, BUT IT CERTAINLY IS TO SAY THEY FEEL AGGRIEVED.

Mary says YOU FEEL THE RIGHT STEP WOULD BE PULLING OUT OF THE WEST BANK?

Michael says IF I WERE A PASS FIST, YES.

Mary says STOPPING SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ?

Michael says YES.

Mary says THAT WOULD MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE?

Michael says YES.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT YOU, DAVID, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

David says I LIKE THE WAY THAT YOU COUCH THAT BY SAYING, IF I WAS A PACIFIST. I AGREE THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE CONDITIONS THAT PRODUCED THIS, MADE IT POSSIBLE AND THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. YOU KNOW, I'VE HAD A LOT OF FUN READING THE GLOBE AND GETTING ANGRY ABOUT IT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY DIFFERENT POSITIONS PUT FORWARD. THIS MORNING, I GOT OUTRAGED WHEN I READ THE EDITORIAL, PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE WERE THREE PIECES, ACTUALLY, THAT WERE SETTING OUT SOME OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT MICHAEL JUST MADE IN VERY, VERY CLEAR FASHION AND NONE OF IT WAS SUGGESTING THE VICTIMS ARE TO BLAME, AS THIS MORNING'S EDITORIAL SEEMED TO SUGGEST, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU TO SAY THAT IF WE SIMPLY ENDED SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ OR IF WE SIMPLY PULLED... GOT ISRAEL TO PULL OUT OF THE WEST BANK, THAT'S GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. THIS IS A MUCH LARGER PROBLEM THAN THAT. AND I THINK THERE IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE SOME KIND OF DIRECT RESPONSE. AGAIN, I'D LIKE TO SEE IT AS A POLICE RESPONSE RATHER THAN A WAR RESPONSE. BUT IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE MILITARY IN SOME KIND. IDEALLY DIRECTED AT THOSE WHO COMMITTED THIS ACT, BUT THEN YOU DO HAVE TO LOOK AT THESE SORTS OF CONDITIONS THAT GIVE RISE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO DIE, TO STRIKE DOWN THE UNITED STATES OR THE WEST OR WHOEVER IT IS THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO TARGET.

Michael says I'M THROWING OUT THIS LABEL OF POLICE RESPONSE. WHAT MIGHT THAT MEAN? WHAT CONCRETELY WOULD BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INTERNATIONAL POLICE ACTION AND A WAR ACTION?

David says I THINK IT COMES DOWN ULTIMATELY TO A RESPONSE I HEARD FROM THE PRIME MINISTER, OUR PRIME MINISTER, A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF INNOCENT DEATH IF WE GO TO WAR, HE SAID, WELL, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A WAR. INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE. HE DIDN'T USE THE TERM COLLATERAL DAMAGE, BUT IT'S NOW BEING USED SOMEWHAT MORE.

Michael says HORRIBLE EXPRESSION.

David says TERRIBLE EXPRESSION. IT COMES OUT OF A LONG LINE OF EXPRESSIONS THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, ARE WRITTEN BY PEOPLE LIKE ME, YOU KNOW, THE ACADEMIC STRATEGISTS WHO DEVISE ALL SORTS OF WAY OF TALKING ABOUT WAR BUT LET US IGNORE THE COSTS. COLLATERAL DAMAGE IS ONE OF THE WORST. BUT WE ACCEPT COLLATERAL DAMAGE WHEN WE GO TO WAR. WE DON'T COLLATERAL DAMAGE NEARLY AS EASILY WHEN POLICE ARREST PEOPLE. AND I THINK THAT BY ITSELF WILL MAKE AN IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY IN WHICH YOU PLAN ANY FORM OF MILITARY INVOLVEMENT. I MEAN, THINK WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS GOING INTO ARREST SOMEBODY. YOU USE, I WOULD ASSUME, YOU KNOW, THE MINIMUM FORCE THAT'S THAT'S ALLOWS YOU TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL WITH THE MAXIMUM CARE NOT TO HURT THOSE AROUND YOU.

Mary says ARE WE TALKING ABOUT SMALL-SCALE INVOLVEMENT HERE? I MEAN, I'VE HEARD THE TERM DELTA FORCE BEING USED WHERE SMALL GROUPS MOVE IN, GET THEIR TARGET AND GET OUT QUICKLY. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

David says I MEAN, I THINK THAT IT WILL MATTER A GREAT DEAL WHAT HAPPENS IN AFGHANISTAN OVER THE NEXT DAY OR SO, FOR INSTANCE. IF YOU CHOOSE TO ACT IN A WAY THAT'S SIMPLY DESIGNED TO BRING THOSE RESPONSIBLE TO JUSTICE AND IF THE AFGHANS AGREE TO TURN... IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE BIN LADEN OR ANYONE ELSE THAT'S WITHIN THEIR COUNTRY OVER, THERE MAY BE NO MILITARY ACTION NECESSARY. I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THAT'S LIKELY TO HAPPEN. IF THEY'RE UNABLE TO TURN THEM OVER AND ALLOW THE UNITED STATES FOR INSTANCE, TO GO IN AND ARREST THEM, THEN, YES, I WOULD EXPECT THAT IT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WE'RE COMMONLY CALLING A DELTA FORCE, JUST, YOU KNOW, A SMALL GROUP THAT CAN MOVE IN TO PRODUCE A VERY PARTICULAR OUTCOME DIRECTED AT VERY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUALS. IT STRIKES ME THAT THE BETTER OUTCOME.

Mary says SO THAT'S MUCH MORE WORTH OF SECRECY AND HE IS BY ON ACKNOWLEDGE, ISN'T IT? I MEAN, A LOT OF THE PUBLIC MAY NEVER KNOW ABOUT IT.

David says THEY KNOW ABOUT IT AT THE VERY LEAST WHEN WHOEVER IS BEING CHARGED IS BROUGHT BEFORE THE DOCK, WHEREVER THAT DOCK HAPPENS TO BE. THEY MAY NOT KNOW ABOUT IT WHILE IT'S GOING ON. PROBABLY BE A GOOD IDEA IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT WHILE IT WAS GOING ON, GIVEN THE SO-CALLED CNN EFFECT. BUT YOU DON WANT TO TELL PEOPLE THAT ARE ABOUT TO BE ARRESTED, HEY, WE'RE COMING TO ARREST YOU. DON'T WANT TO. BUT, ONCE IT'S DONE, PRESUMABLY WOULD BE SHOWN NOT ONLY THE RESULT BUT HOPEFULLY, AGAIN, COME BACK TO SOMETHING I SAID EARLIER, THE EVIDENCE THAT LED WHOEVER IS DOING THE ARRESTING TO THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.

Mary says LET ME JUST RECAP FOR OUR VIEWERS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE NEXT STEPS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM. WHAT CANADA'S ROLE WILL BE IN THE COMING DAYS. IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION, YOU'D LIKE TO CALL, IN TORONTO, YOU CAN PHONE 416-484-2727. LONG DISTANCE IS 1-888-411-1234. AND YOU CAN ALSO E-MAIL US A QUESTION AT MORETOLIFE@TVO.ORG.

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Mary says AND WE DO HAVE A CALLER ON THE LINE. WE HAVE LYNN FROM BRAMPTON. HELLO, LYNN.

The Caller says HI.

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD.

The Caller says THERE'S SO MANY THINGS THAT CAN BE SAID AND CAN BE ASKED ABOUT IN THIS ENTIRE SCENARIO. I SUPPOSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING QUITE READILY IS, ONLY WORD IN THE ENGLISH DICTIONARY THAT'S GOING TO KILL YOU, IF CANADA INVOLVES THEMSELVES IN A MILITARY CAPACITY, TODAY'S HEADLINES IN THE TORONTO STAR IS, BUSH IS MEETING WITH CHRETIEN TO REQUEST MILITARY AID. WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN AS CANADA AS A WHOLE AS A PEACE-KEEPING NATION. WE DON'T GET INVOLVED LIKE THE U.S. HAS. EVERYBODY IS SAYING THAT BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL INVOLVEMENT THAT U.S. HAS HAD OVERSEAS THAT'S WHAT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE BOMBINGS LAST WEEK. CAN WE GUARANTEE, AND THERE IS NO GUARANTEES, WHAT EFFECT DOWN THE ROAD IS THAT GOING TO HAVE ON CANADA? TEN YEARS AGO, I'M QUITE CERTAIN THE U.S. DID NOT FIGURE THESE PEOPLE OVER IN AFGHANISTAN WERE GOING TO USE OUR VERY OWN TOOLS AGAINST US AS LETHAL WEAPONS. SO, IF CHRETIEN DOES SAY, YES, OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO PROVIDE MILITARY AID, TEN YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, WHAT KIND OF GUARANTEE DO I HAVE FOR MY KIDS?

Michael says WELL, I THINK THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT YOU DON'T. AND THE SLIGHTLY LONGER ANSWER IS THAT THE MYTHOLOGY OF CANADA AS THE PEACE-KEEPER NATION IS NO LONGER A MYTHOLOGY. NUMBER ONE, WE'VE LARGELY WITHDRAWN FROM PEACEKEEPING. WE STILL HAVE SOME TROOPS ENGAGED IN IT. BUT BASICALLY IT'S REDUCED TO MORE OF A, I GUESS, A MILITARY PARLANCE, A CORPORAL'S GUARD. BUT, SECONDLY, OUR PRACTISE IN THE LAST TWO MAJOR ENGAGEMENTS HAS BEEN ANYTHING ELSE BUT... ANYTHING BUT A PEACE-KEEPING MEASURE. WE DID JOIN REVLY IN THE GULF WAR, WE DID READILY TAKE PART IN THE NATO BOMBING OF THE BALKANS. IN BOTH CASES, I THINK THAT OUR ROLE THERE SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO VERY INTENSE QUESTIONING AS TO WHY EXACTLY WE WERE THERE AND WHY WE WERE TAKING PART IN THE WAY WE DID AND WHY WE TOOK PART SO READILY WITHOUT ANY KIND OF DEBATE AS TO WHY WE SHOULD BE THERE.

Mary says DAVID, WHAT DO YOU THINK CANADA'S ROLE WILL BE?

David says WELL, I THINK IF THERE IS ANY FORM OF REASONABLY LARGE-SCALE MILITARY RESPONSE, WE'LL BE ASKED TO CONTRIBUTE, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY A TOKEN CONTRIBUTION, TO MAKE SURE THAT IF NOT NORTHERN OR GLOBAL SOLIDARITY IS MAINTAINED, AT LEAST NATO SOLIDARITY IS MAINTAINED. THIS IS A DECISION WE MADE LAST WEEK. THE ATLANTIC ALLIANCE DECLARED THAT THE ATTACKS SHOULD BE SEEN AS AN ATTACK ON ALL OF THE MEMBERS OF THE ALLIANCE AND THAT CALLS ON ALL OF US TO PROVIDE WHATEVER MEASURES WE THINK ARE APPROPRIATE IN RESPONSE. IT DOESN'T COMMIT US TO MILITARY ACTION, BUT IT WOULD BE VERY HARD, I THINK, HAVING MADE THAT DECISION NOT TO JOIN IN MILITARY ACTION IF WE WERE REQUESTED BY THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ALLIANCE, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

Mary says OKAY. LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL RIGHT NOW. I BELIEVE WE'VE GOT MARK ON THE PHONE. HELLO, MARK.

The Caller says HELLO.

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD.

The Caller says I MUST SAY I'M PLEASED THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TALKING ON THIS PROGRAM ABOUT U.S. RESPONSIBILITY VIS-A-VIS THEIR FOREIGN POLICY, AND I AS A CANADIAN, I DON'T WANT CANADA INVOLVED MILITARILY SUPPORTING THE U.S. IN THIS ENDEAVOR. I BELIEVE THAT HELPING THEM OUT AS WE HAVE FROM A HUMANITARIAN PERSPECTIVE, GIVING BLOOD AND ALLOWING THEIR PLANES TO LAND ON CANADIAN SOIL AND DOING... SENDING FIRE FIGHTERS, WHATNOT, OVER TO HELP, I SUPPORT THAT. BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT IT'S WRONG FOR CANADA TO INCREASINGLY BE SEEN TO ALIGN ITSELF IN A MILITARY CONTEXT WITH THE U.S. AND SEND FORCES ABROAD, AS SOME OF YOUR VIEWERS HAVE STATED TO SOME OF THESE OTHER PLACES, BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, THE WAY THEY SUPPORTED THE SHAW, THEN HE WAS OVERFLOWN THROWN, AND THEN THE WAY THEY SUPPORTED SADDAM WHEN HE WAS INVOLVED WITH THE WAR WITH IRAN, AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY DON'T LIKE THEM, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS LIKE THEY DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WHEN IT'S IN AMERICA'S INTERESTS, WITHOUT REALLY SEEING THE BROADER IMPACT OF SOME OF THEIR ACTIONS. AND, SO, I REALLY THINK THAT CANADA SHOULD HAVE ITS OWN DISTINCT FOREIGN POLICY AND IT SHOULD BE PASSFI ASSIST AND I, FOR ONE, I BELIEVE IN NONVIOLENCE AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T BE A LITTLE BIT IN. IT'S SORT OF LIKE BEING A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT.

Mary says DAVID, IS THAT A REALISTIC SCENARIO?

Michael says WITHOUT US PAYING A BIG PRICE FOR IT?

David says I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE WITHOUT US PAYING A BIG PRICE. I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE. BUT IT GOES ACTUALLY TO SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID RIGHT AT THE VERY END OF THAT CALL, WHICH IS THAT WE SHOULD HAVE A PACIFIST FOREIGN 0 POLICY AND PULL ALL OF THE WAY OUT IF WE'RE GOING TO GET OUT. WE ARE ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES. WE'RE IN AT LEAST TWO SEPARATE MILITARY ALLIANCES, SIGNED DOCUMENTS, NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY AND THE NORAD AGREEMENT, WE JOINTLY DEFEND THE AIR AND AIR SPACE OVER NORTH AMERICA AND WE'RE HAD IN A FULL-TIME MILITARY ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN ALLIES. AND, SO, IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF OUR BEING SEEN AS ALLIES, AS THE UNITED STATES. WE ARE. IF WE CHOOSE NOT TO BE IN IT, IT'S A REASONABLE CHOICE. IT'S JUST I SUSPECT NOT ONE THAT OUR CURRENT POLITICIANS ARE LIKELY TO MAKE. AND I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S ONE THAT WOULD GARNER WIDE SUPPORT IN CANADA, NOR IS IT ONE THAT I THINK WOULD WANT TO PAY THE COSTS AS WE MOVE TOWARDS EVER GREATER ECONOMIC INTEGRATION OF THE UNITED STATES. I SUSPECT THAT A MOVE TO PULL OUT ENTIRELY OF OUR MILITARY ALLIANCES WOULD REQUIRE US TO PULL OUT OF AN INTEGRATED NORTH AMERICAN ECONOMY, WHICH IS VERY, VERY FAR HARD TO DO INDEED. IN TERMS OF THE CALLER'S CONCERN ABOUT U.S. FOREIGN POLICY AND OUR PARTICIPATION IN THAT, THERE'S ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT THIS AS WE THINK ABOUT OUR PARTICIPATION IN ANY MILITARY ACTION. AND THAT'S THAT WE'RE PROBABLY BETTER OFF IF THE UNITED STATES IS ACTING IN CONCERT WITH ITS ALLIES, PREFERABLY WITH THE BROADER INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO BE DOING NOW OR AT ANY OTHER TIME IS MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO ACT IN CONCERT, SAYING, IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO ANYTHING, YOU'VE GOT TO GO AND DO IT BY YOURSELF. WE WANT AT LEAST TO HAVE SOMEWHAT KIND OF MODERATING INFLUENCE WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IN NOT FORCING BUT HELPING TO PERSUADE THEM TO BUILD COALITION OF THE WILLING... WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT IS THEY'RE WILLING TO DO.

Mary says MICHAEL, LET'S SAY AMERICA GOES BACK AND THEY DO REVISE FOREIGN POLICY. DON'T WE STILL NEED A BIG BROTHER?

Michael says WELL, WHETHER WE NEED IT OR NOT, WE'VE GOT IT. I MEAN, THIS IS THE IMPERIAL POWER. AND IT'S THE REALITY AND, YOU KNOW, IN TRUDEAU'S LOVELY ANALOGY OF X NUMBER OF YEARS AGO WE'RE THE MOUSE IN BED WITH THE ELEPHANT AND WE ROLL OVER, THE ELEPHANT DOESN'T FEEL IT, BUT WHEN THE ELEPHANT DOES, WE CERTAINLY DO. THE QUESTION ON MY MIND, I GUESS IS, HOW MUCH OF A VOICE OF MORAL SWAATION CAN WE BE? I AGREE. WE'RE LOCKED INTO AN INTEGRATED NORTH AMERICA, MILITARILY, INCREASINGLY POLITICALLY, SO THAT INDEPENDENT ACTION IS HARDER AND HARDER FOR US, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT DO WE STILL HAVE THE POLITICAL COURAGE OR THE POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE. I THINK IT IS PROBABLY THE POLITICAL COURAGE TO SPEAK OUT AND SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THIS. WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO BE DOING... HOW IT'S GOING TO BE DONE. WHAT, IN FACT, WE'RE SEEING OUT OF OTTAWA IS A VERY CLEVER GAME. THE FOREIGN MINISTER DOING THE HAWK AND THE PRIME MINISTER BEING THE, QUOTE, DOVE. AND WHATEVER YOU WANT OUT OF OTTAWA FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT... NATIONAL GOVERNMENT YOU'RE GETTING. BUT SOMEBODY IS SAYING IT, SOMEBODY IS SAYING IT TO REFLECT WHATEVER YOUR POINT OF VIEW IS. BUT CERTAINLY IT'S NOT CLEAR AT ALL WHAT MY GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO DO AS WE MOVE TOWARDS, YOU KNOW, FISCAL BLOODSHED.

Mary says OKAY. LET'S GO TO ANOTHER CALL RIGHT NOW. WE'VE GOT ALLY ON THE LINE. HELLO.

The Caller says HELD. I HAVE TWO POINTS JUST WANT TO CONCERN. THE FIRST POINT I JUST WANT TO CONDEMN THE ATTACK IN NEW YORK. I CONDEMN NIA TACK ON CIVILIANS. IN THE STATES OR TO ANYONE AT ALL. AND MY POINT IS ONE SHARING THAT CANADA SHOULD JUST RESTRAIN FROM SHARING MILITARY ACTION WITH THE STATES. HUGE MILITARY POWER CAN DO THE JOB. MYSELF, BUT SERVE ITS OWN MISSION, TAKE A SECOND AND SEE WHAT'S BEHIND THIS ATTACK ON NEW YORK AND BIN LADEN AND WHATNOT. THERE'S NO PROOF THAT THERE'S ANYONE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST DID IT. FROM THE FIRST DAY, I HEAR SOMEONE ON CNN JUST POINT AND FINGER OUT, OH, YEAH, HAVE TO OCCUPY, FULL MILITARY ACTION, EVEN DO A TAKEOVER OVER THERE. THERE'S NO PROOF UNTIL NOW, EVEN THIS BLACK BOX FROM ALL THE PLANE, EVEN IF THEY FIND THE BLACKS BOXES, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF AT ALL. SO HOW COME THEY JUST SINGLE OUT SOME PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE EAST OR BIN LADEN?

Mary says OKAY. JUST RUNNING OUT OF TIME. DAVID, WHY DON'T YOU ADDRESS THAT.

David says WELL, I THINK THAT THE QUESTION IS PROOF IS OF VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ONE. I MENTIONED THIS AT THE BEGINNING AND I ALSO THINK THAT THE CALLER RAISES A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION ABOUT WHY IT WAS THAT FINGERS WERE POINTED AT THE MIDDLE EAST AS QUICKLY AS THEY WERE. I MEAN, WITHIN HOURS OF THIS HAPPENING. BID LADEN'S NAME HAD BEEN RAISED AND RAISED REPEATEDLY. THE UNITED STATES APPEARS TO BE GATHERING PROOF. AND THIS IS WHY I SAID AT THE BEGINNING THAT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO PUT THAT PROOF ON THE TABLE PUBLICLY. YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO IT IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH THE GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE, IF THEY'RE HOUSING THE SUSPECT, HOUSING THEM, BUT AT SOME POINT THIS HAS TO BE BROUGHT OUT. SO THAT I AND OUR CALLER AND EVERYBODY ELSE CAN SEE WHAT IT IS THAT THEY'VE GATHERED BY WAY OF EVIDENCE.

Mary says WELL, WE'RE OUT OF TIME. I'M SORRY. WE WILL BE CONTINUING THIS DISCUSSION IN THE FOLLOWING DAYS. BUT THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR COMING IN.

David says THANK YOU.

Michael says YOU'RE WELCOME.

Mary says MICHAEL VALPY WRITES ON RELIGION AND ETSDS FOIKS THE GLOBE AND MAIL. DAVID MUTIMER IS THE ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY CENTRE FOR INTERNATIONAL AND SECURITY. DON'T GO AWAY BECAUSE CHILDREN'S AUTHOR JEAN LITTLE WILL BE NEXT.

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Then, a publicity for Imprint, a show on books at 7.30 PM plays.

The commercial break ends.

Back in the studio, Mary says WELL, IMAGINE BEING AN ORPHAN, LIVING IN THE SLUMS OF LONDON, ENGLAND, BEFORE THE TURN OF THE LAST CENTURY. NOW IMAGINE THAT YOU'RE BEING SENT ACROSS THE OCEAN TO WORK AS A FARMHAND OR A DOMESTIC SERVANT FOR AN UNKNOWN CANADIAN FAMILY. THIS WAS THE REALITY FOR 60,000 BRITISH CHILDREN, THEY WERE KNOWN AS HOME CHILDREN. AUTHOR JEAN LITTLE DID IMAGINE WHAT THIS WAS LIKE, AND SHE DID IT THROUGH THE DIARY OF A YOUNG GIRL WHOSE FAMILY ADOPTED ONE OF THESE HOME CHILDREN. JEAN LITTLE'S BOOK IS CALLED "ORPHAN AT MY DOOR, THE HOME CHILD DIARY OF VICTORIA COPE." I HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO JEAN LITTLE VERY REASONABLE AND HERE'S A LOOK AT OUR CONVERSATION.

In a clip, Mary sits in the studio facing Jean Little, who sits with a guide dog, a golden Labrador, at her feet.
Jean is in her sixties, with short white hair and wears a green plaid shirt.

JEAN, YOUR STOREY IS TOLD THROUGH THIS 11-YEAR-OLD NAMED VICTORIA COPE. WAS SHE A REAL CHARACTER OR IS SHE FICTION?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Jean Little. 'Orphan at my door.'"

Jean says WELL, NOW THERE'S A GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE SHE SEEMS MORE REAL TO ME THAN THE CHILDREN WHO WILL READ THE BOOK. BUT SHE'S FICTION. SHE'S REAL IN ALL... IN ALL HER... SHE SEEMS REAL, TOTALLY REAL, BUT, OF COURSE, SHE'S A FICTIONAL CHARACTER.

Mary says THAT GOES FOR THE OTHER CHARACTERS AS WELL, THEN, THE HOME CHILD MAR ANNA WILSON WHO'S IN THE NOVEL?

Jean says UM-HUM. BUT THEY'RE FICTIONAL BUT BASED ON FACT. THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH GOES INTO. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THEY KEPT STOPPING... I WOULD SENT THE MANUSCRIPT IN AND THE EDITOR WOULD SAY, THEY CAN'T SING DANNY BOY, IT WASN'T PUBLISHED UNTIL 1911 OR SOMETHING. THEY CAN'T READ THAT BOOK YET. THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK WAS ONLY 12 AT THAT TIME. I MEAN, I KEPT MAKING MISTAKES. GOOD THING THERE WAS A FACT CHECKER. GREAT DEAL OF HISTORY THAT IS ALL CORRECTING ALL THE FACTS IN THE BOOK. NOT THE PEOPLE, NOT THE MAIN CHARACTERS, BUT THE FACTS BEHIND THAT WERE ALL TRUE.

Mary says RIGHT. TELL US ABOUT THE RESEARCH AND ABOUT THE REAL-LIFE SITUATION OF THESE BERNARDO CHILDREN WHO CAME FROM ENGLAND TO CANADA.

Jean says WELL, THOMAS BERNARDO... THERE WERE SEVERAL CHILD IMMIGRATION SCHEMES AT THAT TIME. AND A COUPLE OF THEM WERE GOING BEFORE HE GOT INTO IT. ANNIE McPHERSON WAS ONE OF THEM. MARIA, WHAT WAS HER NAME, MARIA, I CAN'T REMEMBER. DOESN'T MATTER. BUT THIS THOMAS BERNARDO, HE WAS VERY... HE WANTED TO BE A MISSIONARY AND THEY TURNED HIM DOWN. AND HE THEN BEGAN WORKING WITH TEACHING CHILDREN IN THE RAGGED SCHOOLS WHERE YOU TAUGHT THEM TO READ. AND ONE NIGHT AT THE SCHOOL HE SAID... THERE WAS BOYS HANGING AROUND, HE SAID, GO ON BOY, AND THE BOY SAID, I HAVEN'T GOT A HOME. WHERE DID YOU SLEEP LAST NIGHT? THE BOY SAID, I'LL SHOW YOU. HE TOOK HIM. HE WAS SLEEPING IN TOP OF... JUST UNDER THE ROOF IN A WAREHOUSE. WHOLE BUNCH OF HOMELESS KIDS SLEEPING THERE. AND THEN BERNARDO BEGAN TO OPEN A HOME... HOMES FOR THEM AND ONE BOY CAME TO THE HOME AND THEY TURNED HIM AWAY BECAUSE HOME WAS FULL AND THE BOY DIED OF EXPOSURE. SO THEN BERNARDO SAID NO DESTITUTE CHILD TURNED AWAY. THEY GOT TOO MANY CHILDREN. THEY HAD SO MANY THEY COULDN'T... SO THEN THEY LOOKED AROUND. WHAT COULD THEY DO? AND THERE WERE PEOPLE IN CANADA DESPERATE OF NEEDING HELP BECAUSE THEY WERE JUST, YOU KNOW THEY DIDN'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY HIRED HELP BUT THEY NEEDED HELP. SO, THEY DECIDED WHAT A WONDERFUL CHANCE, THEY'D SEND THE POOR CHILDREN OUT TO A FRESH NEW COUNTRY TO GET A BIG FRESH START. AND SOME OF THEM HAD... IT WORKED OUT PERFECTLY, JUST EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED. AND FOR OTHERS, THEY LANDED INTO VERY ABUSIVE AND VERY HARD SITUATIONS. SOME WERE... A COUPLE... MORE THAN A COUPLE... DIED. SOME WERE JUST ABUSED BY THE PEOPLE THEY WENT TO. BUT OTHERS WERE VERY WELL TREATED. I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THIS BECAUSE MY GREAT GRANDFATHER TOOK IN ONE OF THESE BOYS.

Mary says YEAH. THAT'S YOUR CONNECTION. WHAT HAPPENED THERE? WHO WAS THE HOME CHILD?

Jean says HIS NAME WAS TOM AND HE TOOK MY GREAT GRANDFATHER'S NAME. HE DIDN'T HAVE... HE DIDN'T KNOW HIS OWN SIR NAME AND THEY GAVE HIM A NAME. JUST PICKED OUT A NAME, STUCK IT ON HIM. BUT HE KNEW THAT WASN'T HIS NAME. HE LIKED MY GREAT GRANDFATHER A LOT AND HE ASKED HIM IF HE COULD USE HIS NAME AND, SO, THAT FAMILY DESCENDED FROM THAT BOY ALL HAS MY GREAT GRANDFATHER'S NAME. I DON'T KNOW THEM BECAUSE IT WAS BEFORE I WAS BORN, OF COURSE, BUT HIS NAME WAS MILLOUS AND THEY ALL, YOU KNOW, GOT THAT NAME.

Mary says RIGHT. NOW, THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THAT WAS THE CASE AS WELL FOR MARIANNE AWILSON WHO'S THE HOME CHILD IN YOUR BOOK. SHE IS TAKEN IN BY THE FAMILY, SHE'S TREATED VERY WELL, BUT THEN YOU DO ALSO SHOW THE OTHER SIDE BECAUSE HER BROTHER, JASPER IS ABUSED BY...

Jean says I DIDN'T WANT TO WRITE EITHER WAY. I DIDN'T WANT TO WRITE ABOUT A CHILD, JUST AN ABUSED CHILD, BECAUSE THERE WERE MANY, MANY CHILDREN DID VERY WELL. I MEAN, I READ OF ONE WHO ACTUALLY INHERITED THE FAMILY FARM. THE OTHER SON DIDN'T WANT TO FARM. SO THEY LEFT THE FARM TO THE HOME BOY. BUT THERE WERE ABUSES. SO YOU COULDN'T WRITE ABOUT ONE. I THOUGHT YOU HAD TO PUT BOTH IN THE BOOK. BOTH THE HARD THINGS THAT HAPPENED AND THE MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE, LACK OF SUPERVISION. OFTEN THEY WOULD COME TO INSPECT THE HOME, BUT THE INSPECTOR WOULD BE IN A HURRY AND THEY WOULD NOT TAKE THE CHILD AWAY BY YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD INTERVIEW THEM IN FRONT OF THE FARMER AND THEY WOULD SAY, ARE YOU HAPPY HERE? AND THE FARMER WOULD BE STANDING RIGHT THERE READY TO GIVE THEM A BEATING IF THEY SAID NO. SO, THERE WAS A... THEY WOULD SAY YES. A LOT OF THEM RAN AWAY. A LOT OF THEM WERE PLACED SEVERAL DIFFERENT TIMES.

Mary says THEY WERE ALL... THERE WERE ALL KINDS OF FAMILIES. I MEAN, VICTORIA'S FATHER IS A DOCTOR AND THEY TAKE IN A HOME CHILD.

Jean says YES. MORE OF THEM WENT TO FARMS, I THINK, AND INTO RURAL SITUATIONS THE BOYS ALMOST ALL WENT TO... AS FARM HANDS. THE GIRLS ALSO WENT OFTEN TO FARMS BUT THEY WERE ISOLATED. THEY DIDN'T HAVE HELP. I COULD HAVE DONE IT THAT WAY, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT FARMING. I WAS LIKE THESE CHILDREN. THE CHILDREN WOULD ARRIVE HERE, GET TO... GET ACCEPT THE TO THE FARM. THE FARMER WOULD TELL THEM TO GO OUT AND GET THE COWS. THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE SEEN A COW. TERRIFIED.

Mary says URBAN.

Jean says ALMOST ALL OF THEM URBAN CHILDREN. AND THEY... IT WAS JUST VERY FRIGHTENING FOR THEM. AND THEY WERE VERY MISTRUSTED BY PEOPLE. THERE ARE A LOT OF CANADIANS THOUGHT THEY WERE DISEASED AND...

Mary says YOU BRING THAT UP IN THE BOOK.

Jean says YEAH. I SAW STORIES OUT OF THE GLOBE. YOU KNOW THE MAN WHO STARTED THE CLARK INSTITUTE, HE THOUGHT... HE WAS ONE WHO BELIEVED THAT THESE... THEY SHOULDN'T BRING THESE CHILDREN OVER HERE AMONG HEALTHY CANADIAN CHILDREN.

Mary says YEAH. YOU SAY THAT. PICKING LICE OUT OF THEIR HAIR. YEAH. YEAH. NOW, CENTRAL TO THE STOREY IS THE TRAGEDY OF THE TWO SIBLINGS, MARYANNA AND HER BROTHER JASPER, GETTING SPLIT UP AND GOING TO DIFFERENT FAMILIES.

Jean says THAT HAPPENED ALL THE TIME.

Mary says DID THAT HAPPEN A LOT?

Jean says SOME CHILDREN SEARCHED FOR YEARS. I'VE READ ABOUT THEM. SIX KIDS WOULD COME OVER AND THE OLDEST ONE WOULD SPEND... WOULD GROW INTO ADULTHOOD AND SPEND ALL THEIR... HIS LIFE SEARCHING FOR HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS. AND SOME OF THEM MET ONLY WHEN THEY WERE IN THEIR 60s, THEY FOUND EACH OTHER. RECORDS WEREN'T KEPT VERY WELL. OCCASIONALLY WHEN THEY FOUND OUT MORE ABOUT THEMSELVES, THEY WOULD FIND OUT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE 17 WHEN THEY WERE BROUGHT OVER HERE AND THEY WERE REALLY 14 OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND. ONE MAN, I WAS TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO TOLD ME THAT SHE HAD KNOWN A HOME CHILD, AND WHEN HE WENT AND DID RESEARCH INTO HIS BACKGROUND, HE DISCOVERED HE WAS JEWISH. BUT NOBODY TOLD HIM THIS. AND HE WAS BROUGHT UP IN THE FAMILY HE WAS SENT TO, THEY WERE PROTESTANTS, AND HE GREW UP BELIEVING HIMSELF TO BE, YOU KNOW, A PROTESTANT. AND THEN HE DISCOVERED... THAT WOULD BE VERY UNUSUAL, THAT PARTICULAR ONE. BUT THERE WERE ALL KINDS OF... ALL KINDS OF STORIES.

Mary says AND WHAT ABOUT WHEN CHILDREN READ THIS NEW NOVEL OF YOURS, WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT THEY'LL COME AWAY WITH?

Jean says WELL, I HOPE THEY'LL PUT THEMSELVES IN THE PLACE OF CHILDREN UPROOTED AND LIVING WITH PEOPLE OTHER THAN THEIR BIRTH PARENTS. AND CHILDREN... I MEAN, WE HAVE LOTS OF HOMELESS CHILDREN, CHILDREN IN SHELTERS. IT'S NOT THAT THIS IS JUST A PAST SITUATION. IT'S STILL HAPPENING. NOT... IT'S DIFFERENT, BUT IT'S STILL THE SAME. AND THEY'LL GET INSIDE. THEY'LL HAVE BEEN THERE. THEY'LL HAVE MET MARYANNA. VICTORIA IS CHANGED BY MARY. VICTORIA THINKS THE WORLD IS A WONDERFUL PLACE BEFORE MARYANNA ARRIVES AND HER GREAT AUNT ARRIVES AND SHE HAS TO FACE SOME OF THE FACTS. AND THEN SHE STILL FINDS THE WORLD A WONDERFUL PLACE BUT MORE DIFFICULT THAN SHE BELIEVED. THAT'S WHAT I HOPE CHILDREN WILL FIND, I GUESS.

Mary says YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY THIS IS YOUR 31st NOVEL. YOU'VE BEEN WRITING FOR MANY YEARS. AND, YOU KNOW, THE CHARACTER OF VICTORIA COPE, SHE HAS THAT SPUNK, SHE'S LIVELY, SHE'S CAPRICIOUS, I MEAN, SHE'S A 12-YEAR-OLD CHILD, YOU KNOW. I MEAN, DOES IT GET EASIER OR MORE DIFFICULT TO INHABIT A CHILD'S MIND AS YOU GET OLDER?

Jean says I DON'T FIND GETTING IN THERE DIFFICULT. I JUST BECOME THAT CHILD WHEN I'M WRITING. THIS BOOK WAS DIFFICULT IN THAT THE THINGS I'VE LEARNED ABOUT WRITING, SUCH THINGS THE EDITORS ARE ALWAYS TELLING YOU TO SHOW ACTION, DON'T TELL ABOUT IT, DON'T TELL ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME MAKE IT HAPPEN ON THE PAGE, BUT IF YOU'RE DOING IT IN A DIARY, YOU HAVE TO TELL ABOUT IT, NOT SHOW IT. THERE ARE NOT THESE DRAMATIC... I HAD TO DO IT AND THE EDITOR WOULD WRITE TO ME, I THINK THIS THIS SHOULD BE A NARRATIVE FORM, NOT IN THIS SCENE. SO I HAD TO REVERSE MY WAY OF MAKING THINGS HAPPEN. AND THAT WAS TRICKY. THAT WAS HARD. AND THEN THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF... HER MOTHER MADE THE MISTAKE OF TELLING HER TO WRITE IN THE DIARY EVERY DAY AND THEY WOULD BE GOING TO SOMETHING EXCITING IN A WEEK. WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SEVEN DAYS IN A WEEK I HAD TO GET THROUGH. SO I HAD TO ONE TIME, POISON IVY SO SHE COULDN'T WRITE. I KEPT TRYING TO GET HER OUT OF WRITING SO I CAN GET AHEAD TO THE NEXT INTERESTING THING, YOU KNOW. SHE DID THE OTHER... THERE ARE TWO OF THESE BOOKS OUT NOW. SHE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM. AND IF I WRITE ANOTHER ONE, I THINK I WILL, I'M GOING TO HAVE THE KID WRITE AT THE BEGINNING SAY, I'VE DECIDED TO WRITE A DIARY, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO WRITE ABOUT THE BORING DAYS, ONLY THE INTERESTING ONES. I'LL HAVE HER SAY ON THE FIRST PAGE.

Mary says YOU'RE OFF THE HOOK.

Jean says SAVE ME A LOT OF TROUBLE.

Mary says WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN AND SHARING THOSE STORIES WITH US.

Jean says IT WAS MY PLEASURE.

Mary says JEAN LITTLE IS THE AUTHOR OF "ORPHAN AT MY DOOR, THE HOME CHILD DIARY OF VICTORIA COPE." IT'S PUBLISHED BY SCHOLASTIC CANADA.

A picture of the book appears briefly on screen. The cover is blue, with a picture of a girl in early 20th century attire.

Mary continues SO WHAT BECAME OF SOME OF THE HOME CHILDREN WHO CAME TO CANADA? STUDIO 2 WENT AND DOCUMENTED THEIR STORIES, THEIR LIVES AND THE LIVES THAT THEY ENDED UP BUILDING RIGHT HERE IN CANADA.

A clip plays.

(music plays)
Fast clips show a graveyard and grainy black and white pictures of young men and women.

A female voice says YOU ASKED ME WHY I DO NOT TELL YOU WHO I AM. IT'S BECAUSE IF I DO AND YOU LAUGH AT ME, I'M ALL I'VE GOT LEFT.

Now an elderly man sits in a room.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "George Barter."

George, in his nineties, clean-shaven, says MY MOTHER DIED WHEN I WAS THREE. AND MY FATHER WAS KILLED IN AN EXPLOSION DOWN AT THE BARNS WHEN I WAS FIVE. THAT'S 1904. SO, I WAS LIVING WITH MY AUNT. MY UNCLE DIED, AND SHE WASN'T ABLE TO KEEP ME. AND THE ORPHANAGE SAID IN THEIR REPORT THAT THEY HAD NO PHONE IN THE HOUSE. AND THEN SHE PUT ME IN THE ORPHANAGE AND SHE LIED AT THE TIME, SHE SAID I WAS ONLY NINE, BUT ACCORDING TO MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE, I WAS TEN. BUT SHE HAD A HARD TIME GETTING ME IN IF I HAD BEEN TEN, YOU SEE.

A grainy picture shows a building with several flags hanging outside and a sign that reads "Doctor Barnardo's homes."

George continues THEY WANTED TO SEND ME TO AUSTRALIA, AND MY AUNT, I REMEMBER THAT, AND MY AUNT SAID, OH, NO, SEND HIM TO CANADA. SO THEY SENT ME TO CANADA. BUT I WAS ONLY THREE MONTHS THERE IN LONDON AND THEN THE ORPHANAGE WHEN THEY SHUT ME OUT.

The caption changes to "Dave Lorente. Home Children Canada."

Dave, in his sixties, clean-shaven and balding says
THE BRITISH PEOPLE WANTED TO GET RID OF THEIR CHILDREN, THESE CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY WERE A SOCIAL, ECONOMIC, POLITICAL PROBLEM. THEY WERE POOR. AND BY LAW, THEY HAD TO LOOK AFTER THEM UNTIL THEY WERE 14. AND THE COST OF KEEPING THEM FOR A YEAR WAS THE SAME AS THE COST OF SHIPPING THEM ACROSS THE OCEAN. AND THEY WERE GETTING FREE PASSAGE IN MANY RESPECTS, THANKS TO THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT AND BRITISH GOVERNMENT. THEY WERE GETTING FREE TRAIN RIDES OVER HERE. THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT WAS PAYING 6 dollars, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS PAYING 2 dollars A HEAD. AND THERE WAS MONEY TO BE MADE IN CHILD MIGRATION.

The caption changes to "Ken Donovan."

Ken, in his nineties, with tousled white hair, says
IN 1914, WHEN THE WAR WAS ON, MY FATHER WAS IN THE WAR AND GOT KILLED. SO, NOT ONLY MYSELF BUT THE CLANCEYS, O GRAYDYS WERE ALL IN THE ORPHANAGE HOME WITH ME. CAME INTO THE CLASSROOM AND SAYS ANYBODY THAT WANTS TO GO TO CANADA, STICK UP YOUR HAND. SO, I WAS A SMALL GUY, SO I JUMPED ON MY BENCH AND I STUCK UP ME HAND AND ABOUT A MONTH AND A HALF LATER, THEY SAID, YOU WANT TO GO TO CANADA? I SAYS, SURE DO. SO THEN THEY HAD TO GET IN TOUCH WITH MY MOTHER. MY MOTHER WAS LIVING. SO, IF HE WANTS TO GO TO CANADA, THAT'S HIS WILL. LET HIM GO TO CANADA. YOU KNOW.

A picture shows children posing in neat uniforms with a nun.

Dave says THE SYSTEM WAS IMPERSONAL IN MANY OTHER WAYS, AS SOME OF THE AGENCIES BELIEVED IN UNIFORMITY, TOTAL UNIFORMITY, TO THE POINT WHERE THEY HAD UNIFORMS. I HAVE A DEAR FRIEND WHO WAS A HOME CHILD, WHO SAID THAT HE REMEMBERED BEING HIT ABOUT THE FACE UNTIL HE RESPONDED TO A NUMBER INSTEAD OF A NAME. HE'D BE ABOUT EIGHT YEARS OLD WHEN THIS HAPPENED. AND HE RESPONDED TO A NUMBER UNTIL HE CAME TO CANADA ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS LATER. HE SAID, THE NICEST THING ABOUT COMING TO CANADA WAS BEING CALLED JOHN AGAIN.

Ken says JOHNNY McMANUS, 22, COULDN'T EVEN MAKE A RIGHT, 23, JOSEPH O GRAYDY.

A newspaper clipping appears that reads "British boys for Canadian farms. Opportunity open to youth of the Motherland."

Dave says EMOTIONAL EFFECT DOES NOT REALLY SEEM TO HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED AT ALL. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WERE THINKING. THEY WERE SAVING THEM FROM A FATE WORSE THERE. CERTAINLY THE EFFECTS OF LOSS AND SEPARATION AND ABUSE WAS NOT CONSIDERED AT ALL.

Ken says TIM O'CONNOR, 41. MORRIS O'CONNOR, 42. I WAS NUMBER 42. YEAH.

Dave says HAD THIS WONDERFUL IDEA THAT CANADA WAS A PIE IN THE SKY COUNTRY, THAT CANADIANS WERE THE MOST WONDERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. THEY HAD THIS PHILOSOPHY THAT WIDE OPEN SPACES AND HARD WORK WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL. MAKE GOOD CITIZENS.

George says AS SOON AS I GOT THERE, THEY GIVE ME A PAIR OF OVERALLS TO PUT ON AND STUFF AND PUT ME OUT IN THE FIELD TO HOE POTATOES. AND I HAD AN AWFUL LIFE.

A picture shows a metal plaque that reads "Home children" with an explanation below the title.

Dave says THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT HAD TO SORT OF HANDS-OFF POLICY ABOUT CHILD MIGRATION. THEY PERMITTED IT. THEY GOT INVOLVED AT CERTAIN TIMES IN INSPECTIONS AND SO ON OR DEMANDING INSPECTIONS OF THE CHILDREN WHEN THEY HEARD OF CASES OF ABUSE AND SO ON. BUT BY AND LARGE, IT WAS THE BRITISH AGENCIES, THE CHARITABLE AGENCIES WITH THE OKAY OF THE GOVERNMENT WHO RAN THESE FACILITIES. EVERY CHILD, EVERY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHILD FROM 1904 UNTIL 1932, CAME THROUGH THIS BUILDING.

A grainy picture shows a house with a porch and the caption "Saint George's Home. Ottawa. Circa 1904."

Dave continues THIS WAS JUST A TINY LITTLE BUILDING, A COTTAGE, SO TO SPEAK A LODGE, THE CHURCH WAS ADDED LATER ON. THEY WOULD NOT HAVE STAYED HERE VERY LONG, PROBABLY JUST A COUPLE OF NIGHTS, BECAUSE THERE WAS A HUGE DEMAND. TEN TIMES GREATER THAN SUPPLY. TEN TIMES GREATER. THEY SENT 100,000 CHILDREN TO CANADA. THEY COULD HAVE BROUGHT A MILLION. THE DEMAND WAS THAT GREAT. SO THE PEOPLE WERE... THEY WERE SPOKEN FOR WHEN THEY GOT HERE.

The caption changes to "Art Monk."

Art, in his eighties, clean-shaven and balding, says I WAS 11 YEARS OLD. I WAS IN A HOME, THE LIVERPOOL SHELTERING HOME. THEY GOT A BUNCH OF US CHILDREN INTO ONE ROOM AND SAID, TOMORROW YOU'RE GOING TO CANADA. THERE WAS A LOT OF HYSTERICS, REALLY, OF NOT REALLY GOING TO CANADA PARTICULARLY, BUT JUST GOING SOMEWHERE. I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT WE WANTED TO GET OUT OF THE HOME BECAUSER THEY WERE GOOD TO US. BUT LIVERPOOL HOME WASN'T AS GOOD AS THE OTHERS. OF BEING KIND.

Dave says IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THERE ARE MANY SENDING AGENCIES. SOME VERY LARGE, LIKE BERNARDO'S SENT 30,000. CATHOLIC CHURCH SENT ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT. BUT THE ANGLICAN CHURCH SENT SOME, SENT FROM MIDDLE MOORES, CHARMINS, CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETY THE CHURCH ARMY, THE SALVATION ARMY, ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.
THE SITUATION IS DIFFERENT FOR THE CATHOLICS BECAUSE THEY, BY LAW, HAD TO GO TO A CATHOLIC HOME. AND SINCE COMPARATIVELY FEW CATHOLIC HOMES IN WHAT THEY USED TO CALL WASP, ONTARIO, AT THE TIME, IN THIS AREA, THEY HAD TO FIND CATHOLIC HOMES ELSEWHERE. AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY THEY HAD STARTED IN QUEBEC.

A short clip shows the leader of the Bloc Québécois, Gilles Duceppe, speaking in the house of commons.

Then a clip shows a graveyard and a caption reads "Notre Dame Cemetery, Ottawa."

Dave continues Duceppe's GRANDFATHER WAS A HOME CHILD. WHEN FATHER HUDSON OPENED UP ST. GEORGE'S, THE LADY WAS IN CHARGE, SISTER EATHORNE EVANGELIST O'KEEFE, HERE YOU SEE HER GRAVE OR MARKER. WHAT YOU DON'T SEE, OF COURSE, IS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE OTHER CHILDREN BURIED HERE. ABOUT 25 ARE BURIED HERE WITH HER. AND THE OTHER 25 OR SO ARE BURIED RIGHT OVER THERE IN THE OTHER VACANT LOT. WE HOPE TO PUT A PLAQUE UP THIS NEXT YEAR COMMEMORATING THEM.
I DIDN'T REALIZE MY FATHER WAS A HOME CHILD UNTIL THE 70s. THIS WOULD BE WITHIN A DECADE OF THE TIME THAT HE DIED. HE DIED IN '65. THE YEAR BEFORE HE DIED, BY SHEER COINCIDENCE, I HAPPENED TO BRING HIM WITHIN A COUPLE OF MILES OF THE PLACE THAT HE WAS SENT TO, THE TOWN WHERE HE GOT OFF THE TRAIN IN CANADA. AND THEN HE WAS TAKEN INTO THE BUSH, THE BACK... THE BACK WOODS NORTH OF HERE. WHICH WHEN I CAME HERE TO TEACH FOR A YEAR BACK IN '52, I NEVER KNEW MY FATHER NEVER GAME TO THIS COUNTY. HE DID TRY TO DISCOURAGE ME AT ONE TIME AND I COULD NEVER FIGURE OUT WHY. IT WAS AN INCIDENT, PITCHFORK INCIDENT.
AT THE FIRST FARM HE WAS PLACED, MAN WAS GOING TO KILL HIM. DAD RAN AWAY AND HID IN THE WOODS FOR TWO DAYS. KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT ABUSE TODAY, WHO DOESN'T. IT'S VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOMEBODY SHIPPED A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILES AWAY WOULD BE ABUSED, PARTICULARLY OVER WINTERS AND SO ON. LITTLE GIRLS, LITTLE BOYS WHO CAME HERE AND WHO WERE CRAVING LOVE, YOU KNOW, WERE EASY MARKS FOR THE FARMER, EASY MARKS FOR THE FARMER'S KIDS AND SO ON.

George says WHEN THE INSPECTORS COME AROUND TO CHECK ON YOU, YOU WERE AFRAID TO SAY ANYTHING. AT LEAST I WAS. I WAS AFRAID.

As he opens a wooden trunk, Dave says HOME CHILDREN IN CANADA... HOME CHILDREN CANADA RECEIVES TRUNKS, HOME CHILDREN TRUNKS IN TRUST FOR DONATION TO ULTIMATELY TO THE MUSEUM OF CANADIAN MUSEUM OF CIVILIZATION. ALL AGENCIES HAD A DIFFERENT TYPE OF TRUNK, A DIFFERENT SIZE. OWEN McMASTER, WHO'S OVER 100 YEARS OLD, GAVE US THIS ONE. EVERYTHING SHE OWNED WHEN SHE CAME TO CANADA WAS IN HERE. THESE EXIST IN A LOT OF AT PARTICULARS, IN SHEDS, BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE SIX. ATICS. MY FATHER HAD A TOOLBOX. I NEVER NEW THE SIGNIFICANCE OF IT. WHEN I WAS ASKED TO GIVE A TALK ON A TOPIC OF MY CHOICE, I SAID, I'LL TALK ON HOME CHILDREN, ONE OF OUR DIRECTORS SAID, OH, I WASN'T ALLOWED TO PLAY WITH HOME CHILDREN WHEN I WAS A CHILD. THAT'S WHEN IT HIT ME THAT THERE WAS A STIGMA ATTACHED TO THESE CHILDREN.

Art says I SPENT THE FIRST TWO YEARS IN CANADA AS A VERY LONELY CHILD. IF I THINK BACK, IT WAS THROUGH MY OWN NATURE, WHETHER MY BACKGROUND CREATED THIS NATURE, BUT I BECAME A LONER. I WOULDN'T TELL ANYONE I WAS A HOME CHILD. AND, IN FACT, I NEVER TOLD ANYONE UNTIL 1986 WHEN I TOLD MY OWN FAMILY.

A female voice says WHY NOT?

Art says THE ONLY ANSWER I CAN COME UP WITH IS THAT I WAS ASHAMED.

Dave says PEOPLE RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING BACK IN THE MIDDLE 1870s, GOVERNMENT REPORT IN ENGLAND POINTED OUT WHAT WAS WRONG AND THEY TALKED ABOUT THE SMIG MA AND... STIGMA AND SO ON. ANDREW DOYLE'S REPORT. 30 YEARS LATER, ANNA GABLES WAS WRITTEN. PUTS HER FINGER ON THE STOREY BY TALKING ABOUT HOME CHILDREN. ANN OF GREEN GABLES.

A woman seen only in silhouette reads from a book.

She reads
THIS IS FROM EARLY IN THE BOOK WHERE MARILLA IS TALKING TO HER NEIGHBOUR RACHEL. AT FIRST MATTHEW SUGGESTED GETTING A BERNARDO BOY, BUT I SAID, NO FLAT TO THAT. THEY MAY BE ALL RIGHT, I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE NOT, BUT NO LONDON STREET PEOPLE FOR ME, I SAID. GIVE ME A NATIVE BORN AT LEAST. THERE WILL BE A RISK NO MATTER WHO WE GET. BUT I'LL FEEL EASIER IN MY MIND AND SLEEP SOUNDER AT NIGHT IF WE GET A BORN CANADIAN.

Dave says IF YOU MEET KEN DONOVAN, HE WILL SHAKE YOUR HAND, BUT BEFORE HE DOES, HE PUTS HIS HAND IN HIS OWN POCKET AND HE LEAVES SOMETHING IN YOURS. IT WILL BE A CANADIAN FLAG. THERE'S A REASON FOR THAT.

Ken says WHEN I WAS WORKING AT THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT, COMMISSION, SAID TO ME, KEN, WHO IN THE HELL CAN WE GET TO SEW THE FIRST... THE FLAGS? OH, I SAYS, JUST A MINUTE. I'LL GET JOAN, MY DAUGHTER, TO SEW THE FIRST CANADIAN FLAG. I SAID, BETSY ROSS SEWED THE FIRST AMERICAN FLAG. I'LL GET MY DAUGHTER, JOAN, TO SEW THE FIRST CANADIAN FLAG.

Dave says IF SHE'S OUR BETSY ROSS, HE HAD TO DELIVER THE FLAG. HE WAS HER PAUL RE VEER.

A woman in her fifties says BECAUSE WE SEWED SIX FLAGS, THREE DIFFERENT DESIGNS. REV EAR. THERE I AM WAVING GOOD-BYE WHEN YOU'RE PUTTING THE FLAGS INTO THE CAR TO BRING THEM DOWN TO THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE.

Ken says YEAH. SO, WHEN THEY HAD THEM DONE, NOBODY TOLD ME NOTHING. SO I WENT DOWN THERE AND TWO... ON EACH SIDE OF MY CAR, SAYS, DONOVAN, I SAYS, YES, GO AHEAD IN.

Clips show Dave working in an office. He picks out a folder from a shelf containing several.

Dave says SOMEBODY ONCE SAID, IF YOU WERE AN ORPHAN, YOUR CHILDREN ARE ORPHANS, TOO, YOU KNOW. IF YOU LACK ROOTS, THEN THEY LACK ROOTS, TOO. HOME CHILDREN CANADA, TWO PEOPLE MY WIFE AND MYSELF HERE. THAT WAS STARTED, BUT WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS WE NOW HAVE ABOUT TEN BRANCHES, ALL VOLUNTEERS, EVERYTHING WE DO IS FREE OF CHARGE. I'VE DEALT WITH 13... OVER 13,000, PROBABLY 15,000 COMMUNICATIONS, I'VE RESPONDED TO THAT MANY LETTERS. OUR FIRST REUNIONS WERE HELD IN RENFREW FOR THE FIRST THREE YEARS. THEN WE GOT LETTERS FROM PEOPLE WHO SAID, LOOK, WE CAN'T COME TO RENFREW, COULD YOU COME TO US? AND, SO, SINCE THEN WE HELD THEM RIGHT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

As he demonstrates using a computer screen, Dave says
IT TOOK ME FOUR YEARS TO FIND MY FATHER'S RECORDS DRIVING TO OTTAWA TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES. TODAY I CAN DO IT IN 40 SECONDS. ALL I HAVE TO DO IS I GO INTO WWW.ARCHIVES.CA, TYPE IN THE NAME AS IT WAS MISSPELLED IN THOSE DAYS, PUNCH IN SUBMIT QUERY, AND I'M TOLD THAT ONLY ONE LARENTE WITH THAT SPELLING CAME INTO CANADA, THERE IT IS, JOSEPH, MY FATHER, AGE 15, MALE, CAME OVER ON THE SS VIRGINIA IN 1914. THEY CAME WITH NO BIRTH CERTIFICATE. MY FATHER NEVER GOT HIS. I FOUND HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE 15 YEARS AFTER HE DIED. THAT'S WHEN I FOUND OUT I WAS A TAG... I YOU IN I WAS CANADIAN, I KNEW I WAS WELSH DESCENT BUT MY GRANDPARENTS CAME FROM ITALY. HOME CHILDREN FIND OUT GENERALLY NOW THAT THEY WERE NOT BORN ON THE YEAR... THE DATES VERY OFTEN ARE THE SAME BUT THE YEAR IS VERY OFTEN DIFFERENT. THEY WERE SOMETIMES GIVEN... THEY WERE MADE TO BE YOUNGER THAN THEY ACTUALLY WERE. MY FATHER SAID HE WAS BORN IN 1900. HE WAS BORN IN '98. THE REASON FOR THAT WAS QUITE SIMPLE. 14-YEAR-OLD BRITISH BOY WAS ABOUT THE SAME SIZE AS A CANADIAN 12-YEAR-OLD. AND, SO, A 14-YEAR-OLD, IF HE SAID HE WAS 14, WOULD NOT GET A JOB WITH THE FARMER. THE FARMER WOULD SAY, OH, YOU'RE PUNY, SEW SIMPLY SAID HE WAS 12. THIS FOULS THINGS UP. HOW DO YOU GO THROUGH LIFE, HOW DO YOU GET MARRIED WITHOUT A BIRTH CERTIFICATE? HOW DO YOU RETIRE, PROVE THAT YOU'RE 65 AND SO ON? PRETTY DIFFICULT. THERE ARE A LOT OF POIGNANT THINGS THAW SEE IN THE REQUESTS AND THAT YOU SEE IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS. AND IF YOU LOOK INTO THE MILITARY RECORDS, INTO THE PAPERS, WHICH ARE AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET, FOR WORLD WAR I, FOR INSTANCE, YOU'LL FIND THAT THEY HAVE TO LIST THEIR NEXT OF KIN WHEN THE HOME CHILD JOINED UP. THEY VERY OFTEN HAVE THE NAME OF THE PERSON WHO HAD TAKEN THEM IN. WHERE IT SAYS RELATIONSHIP, THEY WILL HAVE BOSS. AND THAT HURTS.

Art says IN 1934, I WAS WORKING IN A HIGHWAY CAMP AT DENVY, AND ONE DAY THE BOSS CALLED ME INTO HIS OFFICE. I WANT TO SEE YOU. CALLED INTO THE BOSS' OFFICE, YOU THINK THE WORST. AND HE SAID, SIT DOWN. I SAT DOWN THERE. I GUESS HE COULD TELL BY THE LOOK ON MY FACE, FIRST THING HE SAID, NO, YOU'RE NOT FIRED. HE SAID, I JUST HAD A PHONE CALL FROM YOUR FAMILY IN RANKEN. A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY, MR. JAMES LEACH, HAS PASSED AWAY. AND YOU'RE TO GO HOME. AND TWO WORDS, FAMILY AND HOME JUST HIT ME RIGHT THERE. YOU HAD A FAMILY AND A HOME SINCE THE 25th OF AUGUST 1923 AND YOU DIDN'T REALIZE IT.

George says NO FRIENDS, NO RELATIONS, AND THEN TO WORK THROUGH LIFE AND BUILD A HOME AND INSTEAD OF LIVING IN THE HOME, A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THAT'S AN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

Ken says THERE IS A HAPPY LAND FAR, FAR AWAY WHERE WE'LL GET BREAD AND JAM THREE TIMES A DAY. OH, WE'LL SHOUT WHEN THAT DIRTY OLD MAN GOES OUT OH, WE'LL HAVE A SHOUT THREE TIMES A DAY...
THERE IS A HAPPY LAND FAR, FAR AWAY
WHERE WE'LL GET BREAD AND JAM THREE TIMES A DAY
OH, WE'LL HAVE A SHOUT THREE TIMES DAY...

The clip ends.

Mary says WELL, SINCE THAT ITEM FIRST AIRED, GEORGE BARTER HAS PASSED AWAY. BUT HE DOES LEAVE BEHIND 17 CHILDREN, 55 GRANDCHILDREN, 65 GREAT GRANDCHILDREN AND THREE GREAT GREAT GRANDCHILDREN. QUITE A LEGACY. IF YOU'D LIKE MORE INFORMATION ON CANADA'S HOME CHILDREN, PLEASE CONTACT HOME CHILDREN CANADA AT 613-432-2486.
AND THAT'S IT FOR TODAY'S SHOW. TOMORROW WE'VE GOT AUTHOR LAWRENCE HILL AND HE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE BIRACIAL IN CANADA, ALSO PSYCHOLOGIST KATHY GILLEDNER WILL TALK ABOUT DIVORCE LATE IN LIFE. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR WATCHING TODAY. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE TOMORROW at 1 o'clock for More to Life.

Watch: Canada At War?/Orphan At My Door/Home Children EFP