Transcript: World Trade Centre/Pentagon, Terrorism - The Aftermath 2 | Sep 13, 2001

(music plays)

A title appears inside the shape of a house: More to Life. Words spin against a red and orange background: Health, Family, Home, Money, Fitness, Life. Fast clips show images related to the previous concepts, such as a dollar bill, a wheat field, and strands of DNA.

In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: "More to life."

Then, Mary Ito sits in a studio with textured yellow walls and the logo of the show in the background, which reads "More to life."

Mary is in her late thirties, with short black hair. She's wearing a pink cardigan and a black blouse.

Mary says HELLO. I'M MARY ITO. AND WELCOME TO "MORE TO LIFE." WELL, IT'S BEEN OVER 48 HOURS SINCE THE HORRIFIC CRASHES IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON. RESCUE WORKERS ARE WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK TO FIND PEOPLE IN THE RUBBLE. AND HERE TO EXPLAIN TO US WHAT'S HAPPENING OUT THERE IS DISTRICT CHIEF SCOTT COWDEN. HE'S WITH THE TORONTO FIRE DEPARTMENT.

Scott is in his forties, with short curly brown hair and a mustache. He's wearing glasses, a gray suit with badges and decorations, white shirt and black tie.

Mary says HELLO.

Scott says HI.

Mary says THANKS FOR COMING IN. NOW, WHAT WE'RE GOING DO AT THIS POINT IS LOOK AT SOME FOOTAGE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE SITE AND WHAT THESE RESCUERS ARE DOING. AND I WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE US SOME SENSE AS TO THE JOB THAT THEY'VE BEEN EMBARKING ON.

Scott says OKAY.

A clip plays on screen in which a group of firefighters shoots water at a building as black smoke rises. Then, men in hardhats use welders to cut through metal rubble.

Mary says GO AHEAD.

Scott says YOU'RE LOOKING AT NOW BASIC FIRE-FIGHTING OPERATIONS. OBVIOUSLY JUST TRYING TO HOSE DOWN THE SCENE. THE DUST, YOU CAN SEE THERE, THE SMOKE, IT'S QUITE A TASK TO GET OVER. THEY'RE CUTTING AWAY SOME OF THE METAL WORK. THESE LARGE BUILDINGS ARE BUILT OF STEEL WITH CONCRETE HUNG ON THEM FOR SIDING. SO THEY'VE GOT TO WORK TO GET RID OF ALL THAT STRUCTURAL STEEL AS THEY WORK THEIR WAY INTO THE BUILDING. IT'S A HUGE TASK.

In a clip taken at night, cranes move huge pieces of twisted metal from the streets.

Scott continues YOU CAN SEE THE NUMBER OF WORKERS THERE, NOT JUST FIRE FIGHTERS BUT CONSTRUCTION WORKERS AND CRANE OPERATORS AND ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT SKILLS. THEY'LL... THERE WILL BE STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS ON SITE, PARAMEDICS, POLICE OFFICERS AS WELL BECAUSE THIS IS A GIANT CRIME SCENE BASICALLY.

Mary says RIGHT. NOW I'VE HEARD THAT ONCE THESE EMERGENCY WORKERS ARE ACTUALLY ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SURVIVORS WHO ARE BURIED BELOW, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING ANY KIND OF HEAVY MACHINERY IN.

In the footage, large groups of men wearing hardhats form a line and pass around buckets of soil and rubble which they toss onto a pile.

The clips end.

The caption changes to "Scott Cowden. District Fire Chief."

Scott says WELL, YOU HATE TO THINK THAT IF THERE WAS ANYBODY IN THE PILE YOU DRIVE A HUGE MACHINE OVER TOP OF IT, TO TRY AND DIG THEM OUT BECAUSE MIGHT ACTUALLY CRUSH THEM. SO LARGELY WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS GOING TO BE BY HAND FOR THE NEXT LITTLE WHILE. THEY'RE GOING TO SHORE UP LARGE PORTIONS OF THE BUILDING, BLOCKS OF CONCRETE AND STEEL AS THEY'VE FALLEN, AND WORK THEIR WAY IN. SOUNDING DEVICES, LISTENING DEVICES THAT ARE VERY SENSITIVE TO LISTEN FOR MOVEMENT IN THE PILE. ALSO GOING TO BE USING SNIFFER DOGS AND GOING TO BE USING FIBER-OPTIC CAMERAS THAT CAN GO DOWN THROUGH THE VOIDS AND SEE IF THEY CAN SEE ANY BODIES THAT THEY CAN WORK TOWARDS, RATHER THAN HAVE TO TAKE THE WHOLE THING APART PIECE BY PIECE.

Mary says YOU HAVE TO WONDER HOW DANGEROUS THE SITUATION IS FOR THESE FIRE FIGHTERS AND OTHER EMERGENCY WORKERS BECAUSE I KNOW THERE ARE STILL INDIVIDUAL FIRES GOING ON WITHIN THE RUBBLE.

Scott says WELL, THERE ARE FIRES. IN THE CASE OF THE NEW YORK INCIDENT, THERE ARE ALSO BUILDINGS THAT ARE IN PARTIAL STRUCTURAL COLLAPSE THAT WE SEE ARE COMING DOWN AS THEY DO IT. SO THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. NOBODY WANTS TO RISK THEIR LIFE UNNECESSARILY. BUT YOU HAVE TO APPRECIATE THE GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION AND THE WILLINGNESS OF THESE PEOPLE TO GO AS FAR AS THEY HAVE TO GO TO SAVE ANYBODY THAT MIGHT STILL BE ALIVE.

Mary says WE SEE INCREDIBLE PICTURES OF THE FIRE FIGHTERS. I MEAN, IT'S BFR OVER... IT'S BEEN OVER 48 HOURS. I DON'T KNOW IF SOME OF THEM HAVE LEFT AT ALL. THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'VE BEEN WORKING DAY AND NIGHT. THEY ARE SO FATIGUED. THERE ARE STORIES OF THEM, YOU KNOW, CURLING UP AT THE SITE FOR A LITTLE 20-MINUTE NAP AND THEN GOING BACK AT IT. HOW DO THEY DEAL WITH THAT KIND OF FATIGUE?

Scott says WELL, THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THERE. NEW YORK CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT IS COMPRISED OF 14,000 PERSONNEL. IT IS A HUGE ORGANIZATION. THEY'VE DRAWN IN HELP FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THE U.S. AND CERTAINLY, OF COURSE, HELP HAS BEEN OFFERED FROM TORONTO AS WELL. SO, THEY WILL BE ROTATING STAFF THROUGH. THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THERE WHO ARE GOING TO WANT TO REFUSE TO WORK BUT IT'S A DISCIPLINE THING TO PULL PEOPLE AWAY, REST THEM SO THEY CAN COME BACK AND DO THEIR JOB WELL. IT'S A TOUGH THING TO DO ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY STAGES OF AN EMERGENCY, AS THAT HELPS START TO ARRIVE OVER TIME, THOSE PEOPLE... THE INITIAL PEOPLE WILL HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

Mary says RIGHT. YOU'RE SAYING IT WOULD BE THE PROTOCOL TO GET THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THERE A LONG TIME OUT.

Scott says YES.

Mary says WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN I MEAN, IS IT AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE IN THE END? IF A FIRE FIGHTER REALLY WANTS TO STAY THERE, WOULD HE BE ALLOWED TO STAY THERE?

Scott says WE'LL DRAG THEM OR, OR THEY WILL BE DRAGGED OFF. CAN BECOME A HAZARD AFTER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. FATIGUE SETS IN, NO MATTER HOW DRIVEN YOU ARE, YOU GET TO A POINT WHERE YOU'RE NOT BEHAVING SAFELY AND YOU HAVE TO GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT AND GET FRESH CREWS IN, WHICH I'M SURE THEY'VE DONE.

Mary says AT THIS POINT, AS FAR AS PEOPLE POWER GOES, IT'S NOT A PROBLEM, THERE ARE ENOUGH BACKUP PEOPLE COMING IN?

Scott says WELL, THIS OPERATION, I WOULD THINK, IS GOING TO BE MEASURED IN MONTHS, NOT DAYS. AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME, DOING THIS SORT OF THING. SO HAVING THOSE CREWS COULD ROTATE THROUGH, YES, IS AN ISSUE. BUT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL HAS THESE URBAN SEARCH AND RESCUE TEAMS, 27 OF THEM IN THE UNITED STATES, WHO ROTATE THROUGH AND THEY WILL ALL PROBABLY BE ROTATED THROUGH OVER THE NEXT PERIOD OF TIME. SIMILAR ONLY ON A GRANDER SCALE TO WHAT HAPPENED IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

Mary says ARE THERE ACTUALLY FIRE PERSONNEL WHO ARE... HERE WHO ARE STANDINGS BY.

Scott says CITY OF TORONTO IS STANDING AT THE READY AND THE OFFER HAS BEEN MADE THROUGH THE PROVINCE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE STATE OF NEW YORK TO ASSIST.

Mary says YOU KNOW, IN ADDITION TO THE FATIGUE, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THIS MUST AFFECT THEM PSYCHOLOGICALLY. WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF THEIR FELLOW FIRE FIGHTERS MISSING, PERHAPS DEAD. WE HAVE TOP OFFICIALS IN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WHO HAVE DIED IN THIS. AND IT MUST BE SO DISHEARTENING FOR THEM TO BE WORKING HOUR AFTER HOUR WITH SO LITTLE RESULTS FOR THEIR EFFORTS. I MEAN, HOW DOES ALL THAT AFFECT THEM PSYCHOLOGICALLY?

Scott says IT'S DIFFICULT TO DO. BUT FIRE FIGHTERS, I THINK, OVER TIME GAIN THE EXPERIENCE TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE TO FOCUS AND HAVE TO DO THE JOB AT HAND. THEY'RE AN AMAZING GROUP. AND I'M PROUD TO CALL MYSELF ONE OF THEM, THAT THEY CAN FOCUS IN ON THAT SORT OF THING, THEY WILL KEEP WORKING AS LONG AS THERE IS AN IOTA OF HOPE THAT ANYBODY MIGHT BE UNDER THERE, THEY'RE GOING TO WORK AND FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.

Mary says IS THAT PART OF THE TRAINING? DO YOU GO IN THERE AS A FIRE FIGHTER, ALREADY EQUIPPED WITH THAT KIND OF SENSIBILITY OR IS IT PART OF A TRAINING AS A FIRE FIGHTER THAT THERE'S A PSYCHO LOGICAL COMPONENT THAT YOU TEACH?

Scott says I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S SOMETHING YOU TEACH PER SE. I THINK IT'S PART OF WHO WE ARE. IT'S AN INHERENT, AN INTRINSIC. THING BUT GET IN THERE AND THEY WORK. WE HAVE CRITICAL STRESS TEAMS THAT HELP US WHEN WE RUN INTO INCIDENTS LIKE THAT. THEY'LL BE THERE. RELIGIOUS REPRESENTATION, THERE WILL BE CHAPLAINS AND PADRES AND PEOPLE OF VARIOUS FAITHS TO HELP PEOPLE WORK THROUGH IT. THIS IS A TRAUMATIC EVENT, EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYBODY THERE. IT'S AN AMAZING THING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

Mary says NOW, HOW LONG BEFORE THESE RESCUE CREWS DECIDE THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE A RECOVERY MISSION NOW?

Scott says THAT'S A TOUGH CALL TO MAKE. I DON'T KNOW AT WHAT POINT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SAY THAT. WORKING WITH MEDICAL PERSONNEL, THEY'LL HAVE TO MAKE A DETERMINATION AT SOME POINT OF HOW LONG IT'S REASONABLE TO EXPECT THAT PEOPLE COULD HAVE SURVIVED. GIVEN THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, HOW HOT OR COLD IT IS, WHETHER THEY'VE BEEN EXPOSED TO WATER OR MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS. YOU GET TO A POINT, OBVIOUSLY, WHERE YOU'D HAVE TO THINK THAT THERE AREN'T THAT MANY MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL VIABLE IN THE BUILDING. BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE WORK AT IN CONJUNCTION WITH MEDICAL PERSONNEL WHO ARE TRAINED AND ON THE SCENE.

Mary says RIGHT. WHAT KIND OF HOPE DO WE HAVE FROM PAST EVENTS WHERE PEOPLE HAVE SURVIVED? DO WE HAVE ANY INDICATION HOW LONG, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MAY BE ABLE TO SURVIVE THESE KIND OF CONDITIONS?

Scott says WELL, WHEN WE'VE LOOKED AT THINGS SUCH AS THE RECENT EARTHQUAKES IN TURKEY, THEY WERE STILL BRINGING OUT PEOPLE ALIVE, NOT AS MANY, OBVIOUSLY, BUT AFTER A WEEK IN SOME OF THOSE STRUCTURES.

Mary says IS THAT WITHOUT WATER?

Scott says WITHOUT WATER, WHICH IS AN AMAZING PERIOD OF TIME. THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD ACCESS TO WATER THAT MIGHT HAVE POOLED INSIDE THE BUILDING AT THE TIME. BUT SURVIVAL WITHOUT WATER IS OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES. AND IF THEY'RE OF COURSE INJURED THE SEVERITY OF THEIR INJURIES OBVIOUSLY DETERMINES HOW LONG THEY CAN SURVIVE.

Mary says NOW, YOU WERE ACTUALLY PART OF A GROUP CALLED HUSAR. TELL US ABOUT THAT.

Scott says HEAVY URBAN SEARCH AND RESCUE IS A SERIES OF DISCIPLINES OR SKILLS BROUGHT TOGETHER. IN TORONTO CASE, THIS IS A PROGRAM THAT'S BEEN ENDORSED BY COUNCIL THAT WE'RE WORKING ON, CITY-WIDE INITIATIVE. WE TALK ABOUT FIRE FIGHTERS AND POLICE OFFICERS. BUT THAT'S PART OF THE COMPONENT. BUT IT ALSO INCLUDES MEDICAL PERSONNEL, INCLUDING PHYSICIANS AND PARAMEDICS, IT INCLUDES STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY WHEN WE'RE DEALING WITH A BUILDING THAT'S COME DOWN YOU NEED SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS THEIR WAY AROUND, HOW ALL THE PHYSICS WORK, IN TERMS OF GETTING IN AND KNOWING ENOUGH OF THIS BUILDING TO ACTUALLY GET IN AND LOOK FOR PEOPLE.

Mary says HAVE ENGINEERS AT THE SITE NOW?

Scott says THERE WILL BE A PILE OF ENGINEERS, I'M SURE. AS THE CITY OF TORONTO DOES, EVERY MAJOR CITY HAS ENGINEERS ON STAFF TO DEAL WITH THE REGULAR ISSUES THAT THE CITY DEALINGS WITH... DEALS WITH IN TERMS OF BUILDING CONSTRUCTION AND SAFETY. SO THEY'LL BE THERE... SO THEY WILL BE THERE. THERE WILL BE A SEARCH DOG COMPONENT. IT'S A COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH TO DEALING WITH THIS TYPE OF INCIDENT.

Mary says NOW, WE HAVE OTHER KINDS OF RESCUE TEAMS RIGHT NOW. THIS IS QUITE DIFFERENT THEN FROM ANY OTHER RESCUE TEAM THAT IS AVAILABLE NOW?

Scott says WHAT THIS PROGRAM DOES IS IT BRINGS TOGETHER SKILL SETS OF EXISTING SKILLS AND AUGMENTS THEM WITH SOME NEW... WITH SOME NEW TRAINING. TO GET THE BEST USE OUT OF WHO WE HAVE. OBVIOUSLY IN THE CITY OF TORONTO WE HAVE RESCUE TEAMS WITHIN THE FIRE SERVICE AND WITHIN OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT DEAL WITH WHAT WE CALL HIGH ANGLE RESCUE OR WORKING WITH ROPES THAT, DEAL WITH CONFINED SPACE, RESCUE, TRENCHES, BUILDINGS, BASEMENTS, THINGS LIKE THIS. THIS AUGMENTS THAT, ADDS NEW TOOLS TO THE PROGRAM, BRINGS IN NEW EXPERTISE DEALING WITH THE CONFINED SPACE STUFF AND THE ROSS CUE THINGS LIKE THE DOGS, STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS, BRINGS ALL THAT TO BEAR IN A LARGER PROGRAM.

Mary says SO IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY IN TORONTO, LET'S SAY, WHAT COULD THIS HUSAR TEAM DO NOW THAT YOU COULDN'T DO BEFORE?

Scott says I SHOULD SAY WE'RE IN DEVELOPMENT. THE TEAM IS NOT DEPLOYED AS OF TODAY. WE'RE STILL WORKING, WE'VE GOT SOME FUNDING FROM VARIOUS LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT AND WE'RE LOOKING FOR MORE FUNDING TO AUGMENT THESE THINGS. BUT WE DO HAVE... WE HAVE ALREADY STARTED SOME OF THE PROGRAMS SO WE'VE STARTED THE CONFINED SPACE RESCUE TRAINING. WE'VE STARTED SOME OF THE...

Mary says CONFINED SPACE, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE.

Scott says DEALING WITH EVEN THE STUDIO THAT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, SHOULD SOMETHING HAPPEN WHERE YOU COULDN'T GET OUT, THIS IS DEFINED AS A CONFINED SPACE, ONLY ONE DOOR HERE, IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO THE BUILDING, IN A SHE CONFINED SPACE, IT'S NOT LIKE WE CAN GO THROUGH THE WINDOW. DEALING WITH TRENCHES, SUBWAY SYSTEMS.

Mary says WHAT THAT ABOUT THAT SUBWAY CRASH WE HAD?

Scott says WE WERE ON SCENE USING THE RESCUE, USING THE EQUIPMENT THAT WE HAVE. WE HAVE A FAIR BIT OF RESCUE EQUIPMENT NOW. LEARNING NOW TECHNIQUES WITH THE PROGRAM AND DIFFERENT WAYS OF DEPLOYING SOME OF THAT. GETTING NEW EQUIPMENT AND LOOKING AT NEW EQUIPMENT IN ORDER TO EXPAND OUR CAPABILITIES.

Mary says ARE THERE ANY OTHER DISASTERS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST THAT, YOU KNOW-F WE HAD THIS HUSAR TEAM, IT MIGHT HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE?

Scott says THERE HAVE BEEN SOME STRUCTURAL COLLAPSES. IT HAPPENS FROM TIME TO TIME NOW. BUILDINGS UNDER CONSTRUCTION HAVE COLLAPSED. THERE WAS A PARKING GARAGE ON THE EDGE OF TORONTO THAT COLLAPSED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO INTO AN APARTMENT BUILDING. LUCKILY, NO ONE WAS TRAPPED IN IT, BUT HAD THEY BEEN, A HUSAR TEAM IS THE KIND OF RESOURCE THAT WOULD BE DEPLOYED TO DEAL WITH THAT BEST.

Mary says SO HOW MUCH LONGER WILL IT TAKE BEFORE THIS TEAM IS UP AND RUNNING AND HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU NEED?

Scott says WE'RE HOPING... IT'S A 1.5 MILLION dollar PROGRAM AND A LARGE CHUNK OF THAT IS TRAINING. WE'VE BEGUN THAT NOW. LOOKING TO GET THE REST OF THE FUNDING FROM WHEREVER WE CAN FIND IT. WITH APPROPRIATE FUNDING, WE CAN BE ON THE FLOOD ABOUT 12 MONTHS.

Mary says OH, NOW, WOULD THERE BE ANY OTHER MAJOR CITIES IN CANADA THAT WOULD ALREADY HAVE A HUSAR TEAM?

Scott says THE ONLY TEAM OPERATING IN CANADA RIGHT NOW IS VANCOUVER. THEY'RE AHEAD OF US BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GREATER THREAT THAN US IN TERMS OF EARTHQUAKES. FOR THEM IT'S NOT AN IF, IT'S A WHEN. YOU KNOW, THEY ARE FAIRLY HIGH ON THE RISK SCALE. SO THEY'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH THAT. OBVIOUSLY, HUSAR IS AN INTEGRAL PORTION OF DEALING WITH EARTHQUAKES.

Mary says THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN IN THE WORKS FOR A WHILE. WHAT EVEN INITIATED THIS?

Scott says YES. LITERALLY LOOKING AROUND AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. WE DO RISK ASSESSMENTS IN TORONTO ON A REGULAR BASIS. LOOK WHAT THE IS THE POTENTIAL FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN HERE. YOU KNOW, WE'VE LOOKED AT SEISMIC STUFF, WE'VE LOOKED AT ENVIRONMENTAL THINGS LIKE WEATHER AND HURRICANES AND STORMS. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE TERRORISM ISSUE NOW. WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT THAT FOR A WHILE. AND AS IT SORT OF RAMPS UP AROUND THE REST OF THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO THINK THAT IT COULD RAMP UP HERE IN TORONTO.

Mary says YEAH. WELL, DO YOU THINK BECAUSE OF THESE EVENTS, YOU WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM GETTING THE GO AHEAD VERY QUICKLY NOW?

Scott says WELL, I DON'T WANT TO CAPITALIZE ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S MISFORTUNE, BUT I DO BELIEVE IN THE PROGRAM.

Mary says YEAH. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN.

Scott says NO PROBLEM.

Mary says DISTRICT CHIEF SCOTT COWDEN, WITH THE TORONTO FIRE DEPARTMENT. HE IS A MEMBER OF HUSAR. IT IS THE HEAVY URBAN SEARCH AND RESCUE. PLEASE STAY WITH US BECAUSE AFTER THE BREAK, WE ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THE HUMAN RESPONSE TO TRAUMA.

A commercial break starts.

In a clip, a man runs on a wet street and says "TVO, still running after 30 years."

Then, publicities play for TVO shows. First, a show called "Vista" at 7 pm.
Then, a 7.30 pm show called "Imprint."
Then Heartbeat at 9 pm.

Finally, a TVO commercial plays with captions that read "nature matters, space matters, environment matters... TVO, television that matters."

The commercial break ends.

Back in the studio, Mary says WELL, WE HAVE BEEN SEEING AND HEARING HORRIFIC, BUT ALSO HEROIC ACCOUNTS OF RESCUE WORKERS SIFTING THROUGH THE RUBBLE IN NEW YORK, LOOKING FOR SURVIVORS. THE WORKERS THAT WE'VE DISCUSSED THEY ARE EXHAUSTED, THEY ARE SHELL SHOCKED AND, YET, SO MANY OF THEM CONTINUE TO WORK. AND WE LOOK AT THEM AND WE WONDER, YOU KNOW, HOW DO THEY KEEP GOING, WHY DON'T THEY STOP. AND WHY ARE MANY OF US ALSO UNABLE TO STOP WATCHING. GERRY SMITH HAS SEEN THIS PHENOMENON BEFORE. HE'S THE NATIONAL TRAUMA RESPONSE DIRECTOR WITH WAR AND SHAPEL CONSULTANTS, HE'S HERE TO TELL US HOW TRAUMA AFFECTS PEOPLE AND HOW WE COULD COPE.

Gerry is in his late forties, balding, with a stubble. He's wearing a gray suit, white shirt and checkered gray tie.

Mary continues WE WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU TODAY. PERHAPS YOU HAVE SURVIVED A BANK ROBBERY, SOME KIND OF TRAUMATIC INCIDENT IN THE PAST, A CAR ACCIDENT, OR YOU KNOW OF FAMILY OR FRIENDS WHO HAVE UNDERGONE SOME KIND OF AN INCIDENT. PLEASE GIVE US A CALL. WE WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR YOUR STORIES, YOUR COMMENTS, AND YOUR QUESTIONS. THE NUMBER IN TORONTO DIAL IS 416-484-2727. YOU CAN ALSO DIAL TOLL FREE LONG DISTANCE AT 1-888-411-1234. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR COMING IN, GERRY.

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."

Gerry says YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

Mary says FIRST GIVE US SOME CONTEXT, TELL US WHAT YOUR COMPANY DOES.

The caption changes to "Gerry Smith. Trauma Response Specialist."

Gerry says WE PROVIDE EMPLOYEE ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS TO ABOUT 1500 COMPANIES IN NORTH AMERICA. MOSTLY IN CANADA. AND OUR JOB IN THERE IS TO PROVIDE COUNSELING SERVICES. BUT AS PART OF THAT PROGRAM, THEY HAVE WHAT WE CALL A TRAUMA RESPONSE SERVICE, SO IF THERE'S AN ACCIDENT OR, AS YOU SAID, A BANK ROBBERY OR A ROAD ACCIDENT OR TRAIN CRASH, PLANE CRASH, WE PROVIDE ON-SITE SERVICES TO THE ORGANIZATIONS WHEREBY WE BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER IN GROUPS TO START THE HEALING PROCESS AFTER THE TRAGEDY.

Mary says WHEN WE WERE JUST TALKING IN THE EARLIER INTERVIEW ABOUT THESE EMERGENCY WORKERS ON SITE IN NEW YORK, AND HOW MANY OF THEM SEEM TO BE RELENTLESSLY GOING ON AND ON, APPARENTLY THERE IS A PROTOCOL, THOUGH, BECAUSE FATIGUE WILL SET IN AND THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE RELIEVED BY OTHER BACKUP WORKERS. NOW, WOULD THIS BE THE CASE GENERALLY? I KNOW, IT SEEMS TO BE TRUE FOR FIRE FIGHTERS, WOULD THIS BE THE CASE FOR, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY FOR EMERGENCY WORKERS?

Gerry says SURE. FOR EMERGENCY WORKERS, THERE'S A PROCESS THAT WE CALL DEMOBILIZATION. AND DEMOBILIZATION IS ABOUT THE FACT THAT AFTER A FEW HOURS OF WORK ON SUCH A RESCUE ATTEMPT, OR A RECOVERY ATTEMPT, WHICHEVER IT MAY BE, THE PERSON NEEDS TIME FOR REST AND REHABILITATION, SO THEY NEED TIME TO COME OFF SITE-A WAY FROM THE SCENE, THEY NEED TIME TO EAT AND DRINK SO THAT THEY ARE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO CONTINUE THE WORK. AND THEY ALSO NEED TIME TO START THE PROCESS OF DEALING WITH WHAT'S GONE ON IN THEIR HEADS, AS THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS OF RECOVERY. SO, THEY HAVE ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO EAT, AND THEY HAVE ABOUT TEN MINUTES TO SPEND TIME WITH SOMEONE LIKE MYSELF, A COUNCILLOR WHO'S ABLE TO START THE PROCESS OF HOW ARE YOU DOING WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR MIND, ARE YOU OKAY TO GO BACK. AND IF IT'S ASSESSED THAT THEY'RE NOT OKAY TO GO BACK, THEN THEY ARE GIVEN A LARGER AMOUNTED OF TIME TO GO AND REST AND HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE RECOVERY TIME FOR THEMSELVES. AND THAT'S EMERGENCY SERVICES STANDARD PROTOCOL FOR THESE LARGE-SCALE DISASTERS.

Mary says WHAT ARE THE SIGNS THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR WHEN YOU THINK, THIS WORKER SHOULD NOT BE GOING BACK?

Gerry says WELL, WE'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING FOR THE SIGNS OF FATIGUE, THE SIGNS OF LACK OF ABILITY TO CONCENTRATE, LACK OF ABILITY TO IF HE CUSS ON WHAT THEY'RE DOING OR AN ABILITY TO HAVE A NORMAL DAY-TO-DAY CONVERSATION ABOUT TIME AND PLACE AND LOCATION. YOU NEED TO FIND OUT EXACTLY WHERE THE PERSON FEELS THEY ARE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. SO THAT TEN-MINUTE CONVERSATION AND DEMOBILIZATION IS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ASSESSMENT TO SEE IF THE PERSON'S OKAY. JUST TO SEE IF, YOU KNOW-F THEIR MIND IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE TO CONTINUE THAT KIND OF WORK BECAUSE IT'S VERY EXHAUSTING, VERY HARD, AND VERY... IT'S TRAUMATIZING WORK FOR THEM, TOO.

Mary says AND IS THAT PROCESS, I WOULD THINK, QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE PROCESS THAT A PERSON, WHO IS SOMEONE WHO'S STANDING BY WATCHING A TERRIBLE ACCIDENT OCCUR, IS IT QUITE DIFFERENT?

Gerry says IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT. FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE STANDING BY WATCHING FOR THOSE KINDS OF VICTIMS OR WITNESSES TO THE EVENT, WE WOULD OFFER A PROCESS THAT WE CALL DEPHYSICALING AND ASKING THEM QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THIS EVENT, WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR MIND NOW HOW ARE YOU FEELING, AND GIVE THEM TIPS AND STRATEGIES TO THESE PEOPLE. DIFFUSING. ABOUT HOW TO GET THROUGH THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. THAT WOULD BE A PROCESS WE CALL DIFFUSING. AND THAT IS ALSO OFFERED TO EMERGENCY SERVICES BUT IT'S OFFERED TO WITNESSES AND BYSTANDERS AS THE RESCUE IS HAPPENING.

Mary says IS IT COMMON FOR THESE PEOPLE WHO UNDERGO TRAGEDIES TO HAVE A DELAYED RESPONSE TO ALL THIS?

Gerry says OH, SURE. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. SOMETIMES PEOPLE CAN ENTER PROFESSIONAL MODE, SUCH AS FIRE FIGHTERS, FIRE FIGHTERS ARE GREAT, THEY'RE FOCUSED ON THE JOB, THEY WORK WITH THE ABSOLUTE AMAZING PROFESSIONALISM, AND, YET, MAYBE TWO WEEKS LATER THEY COLLAPSE IN A HEAP. AND THAT'S A DELAYED REACTION TO TRAUMA. AND IT'S FAIRLY NORMAL TO EXPECT THAT PEOPLE IN THOSE KIND OF PROFESSIONS MAY HAVE A DELAYED REACTION. BUT DELAYED REACTION CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE, MARY, WHEN THERE'S A TRAUMATIC EVENT, EVEN YOU AND I, WE WENT THROUGH THE SAME TRAUMA THAT THE PEOPLE IN NEW YORK ARE THROUGH TODAY, AND MAYBE SIX MONTHS OR A YEAR BEFORE IT BEGINS TO HIT US REALLY TRULY IN OUR PERSONALITY.

Mary says NOW, SOME EXPERTS SAY THAT WE SHOULD BE TURNING OFF OUR TELEVISIONS AND NOT KEEP WATCHING CONTINUOUSLY. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

Gerry says YEAH. THERE'S A WHOLE DIVERSE OPINION ABOUT WHAT THE EXPERTS ARE SAYING. I WOULD ALWAYS ENCOURAGE PEOPLE, WATCH AS MUCH AS YOU FEEL YOU CAN WATCH BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE A NEED FOR INFORMATION, PEOPLE THIRST TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING, THERE'S THIS GREAT DESIRE TO BE BONDED TO THE TRAGEDY. AND, SO, WATCHING ON TV MAKES IT ALIVE AND REAL FOR PEOPLE. BUT IF THERE COMES A POINT WHERE THE IMAGES ARE BECOMING INTRUSIVE TO YOU, YOU KNOW, STOPPING YOU FROM SLEEPING OR STOPPING YOU FROM GOING ABOUT YOUR NORMAL ROUTINE, THEN MAYBE THAT'S WHEN YOU SHOULD BE WATCHING, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, CUTTING DOWN ON WHAT YOU'RE WATCHING ON TV. SO CHILDREN, IT'S A DIFFERENT MATTER. I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT OVEREXPOSURE OF DANGEROUS EVENTS TO CHILDREN BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THEIR GROWTH OR DEVELOPMENT. DON'T KNOW HOW IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THEIR MINDS AND MAKE IT STAY THERE AND BECOME A HORRIFIC EVENT FOR THEM.

Mary says YES, ABSOLUTELY. WELL, INTERESTING BECAUSE I HAVE HEARD AN INTERESTING DICHOTOMY OF RESPONSES. ON THE ONE HAND, I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE SAY THAT AFTER A WHILE THEY ALMOST BECOME DESENSITIZED TO IMAGE AFTER IMAGE OF THIS... AND THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND, I HEAR OF PEOPLE WHO SAY, AFTER SO MANY HOURS, THEY CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH. THEY'RE JUST SO FILLED WITH EMOTION, THEY HAVE TO WALK AWAY AND TAKE A BREATHER.

Gerry says YEAH. BECOMES SATURATED. IT'S OVERWHELMING. WHEN THE BODY BECOMES OVERWHELMED, YOU REALLY HAVE TO DISTANCE YOURSELF AND GO ABOUT YOUR NORMAL DAY-TO-DAY ACTIVITIES LIKE EAT, DRINK, SLEEP. THOSE THINGS HAVE TO CONTINUE. IF YOU DON'T LOOK AFTER THOSE THINGS, IN THE POST-TRAUMA PERIOD, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO BE USELESS BECAUSE YOUR BODY NEEDS TO SURVIVE. EVERYBODY WHO'S INVOLVED IN THIS TRAGEDY IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER NEEDS TO KEEP THOSE VITAL FUNCTIONS GOING BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T EAT AND DON'T DRINK, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE AND YOUR BODY NEEDS THAT ENERGY, ESPECIALLY AFTER A TRAUMA, YOU DO NEED TO BOOST UP THE ENERGY SOURCES THAT YOUR BODY TAKES IN. SO, THE NORMAL ROUTINES ARE WHAT'S IMPORTANT. YOU CAN'T sit AND WATCH TV. YOU HAVE TO GET BACK TO WORK. YOU HAVE TO GET ON WITH NORMAL DAY-TO-DAY LIVING.

Mary says RIGHT. OKAY. LET ME REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT OUR RESPONSE, THE HUMAN RESPONSE TO TRAUMATIC INCIDENTS. IF YOU HAVE HAD A TRAUMATIC INCIDENT, PERHAPS YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN A CAR ACCIDENT, A BANK ROBBERY, SOMETHING IN YOUR LIFE THAT HAS MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR CALL, HEAR THE DETAILS HOW YOU HANDLED IT, ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE. PLEASE GIVE US A CALL IN TORONTO THE NUMBER IS 416-484-2727. ALSO, LONG DISTANCE, 1-888-411-1234. AND WE HAVE A CALLER ON THE LINE. SHANTELLE. NEAR OTTAWA, I UNDERSTAND.

The Caller says YEAH. BETWEEN OTTAWA AND MONTREAL. I'M KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE.

Mary says YOU'VE GOT SOME KIDDIES IN THE BACKGROUND, TOO.

The Caller says MY LITTLE 3-YEAR-OLD SON. MY TWO OTHER DAUGHTERS ARE IN SCHOOL, FIVE AND SIX.

Mary says WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO TELL US TODAY?

The Caller says I JUST WANTED TO SAY, I WAS INVOLVED IN AN ARMED ROBBERY A COUPLE YEARS BACK WHEN I WAS YOUNGER. AND WATCHING ON TV WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE PEOPLE IN NEW YORK IS MORE TRAUMATIZING THAN WHAT HAPPENED TO ME. YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY IN NEW YORK. YOU KNOW, BUT I'M SHAKING AND IT'S... MY HEART GOES OUT TO THEM. I WISH I COULD DO SOMETHING. I FEEL HELPLESS.

Gerry says YOU KNOW, SHANTELLE, WHEN YOU GO THROUGH AN EXPERIENCE OF TRAUMA IN THE PAST, LIKE THE ONE YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH, AN ARMED ROBBERY, THAT'S A VERY, VERY HORRIFIC EVENT. WHEN YOU EXPERIENCE SOMETHING IN THE PRESENT, IMMEDIATELY TAKES YOU BACK TO WHERE YOU WERE THOSE YEARS AGO WHEN YOU WERE INVOLVED IN THE FIRST TRAUMA. SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT TODAY YOU'RE FEELING A LITTLE BIT MORE ANXIOUS, A LITTLE BIT MORE STRESSED OUT BY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN NEW YORK. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TYPICAL IN THIS KIND OF SITUATION. SO, WHAT I WOULD SAY TO YOU IS TO LOOK AT THE WAY YOU'VE COPED IN THE PAST. HOW DID YOU GET THROUGH THE ROBBERY THE LAST TIME THROUGH, WHAT WERE THE MECHANISMS THAT YOU USED, AND TRY TO KIND OF RECHARGE YOUR BATTERIES, LOOKING AT YOUR OWN COPING SKILLS AND I'M SURE YOU'LL FIND THAT THAT WILL HELP YOU TO GET THROUGH SOME OF THE TRAGEDY THAT'S UNFOLDING IN FRONT OF OUR EYES AT THIS TIME.

Mary says WE HAVE ANOTHER CALLER AS WELL. WE HAVE ANGIE CALLING FROM OSHAWA. HELLO.

The Caller says HI. HOW ARE YOU?

Mary says I'M FINE, THANK YOU. DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO TELL US?

The Caller says I DO. ACTUALLY WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT DELAYED RESPONSE, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THAT RESPONSE IN THEM. I HAVE A LITTLE BOY WHO WAS BORN AND MY OTHER SON, WHO WAS THREE, DIED THE SAME DAY THAT MY OTHER SON WAS BORN. AND TO BE HONEST, I MEAN, A LOT OF TIMES AT FIRST YOU ARE JUST IN A GREAT DEAL OF SHOCK. AND IT TAKES QUITE A LONG TIME, I'D SAY A COUPLE MONTHS, FOR ACTUALLY EVERYTHING TO SINK IN AND FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THINGS. SO, I'M SURE THEY'RE FEELING THAT IN NEW YORK, TOO.

Gerry says OH, ABSOLUTELY. WHEN YOU LOSE SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY, I'M SO SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR LOSS OF YOUR SON, BUT WHEN YOU LOSE A LOVED ONE LIKE THAT, IT TAKES MONTHS AND EVEN YEARS JUST TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT THAT PERSON'S NO LONGER THERE IN YOUR LIFE. SO THE DELAYED REACTION IS ABSOLUTELY NORMAL. YOU'RE RIGHT TO SAY THAT LOTS OF PEOPLE WILL FEEL THAT. 7 MAYBE SOME... MAY BE SOME MONTHS. I REMEMBER ONE INSTANCE I WAS DEALING WITH A FEW YEARS AGO, FOR A LADY LOST HER FOUR SONS WHO WERE GUNNED DOWN IN THEIR OWN HOME. AND SHE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A REACTION UNTIL FIVE YEARS LATER. BUT WHAT SHE DID IN THE MEANTIME SHE GOT INTO ACTION MODE, SHE REALLY BEGAN TO SPEAK UP FOR VICTIMS' RIGHTS AND ADVOCATED FOR VICTIMS' RIGHTS. AND THE DAY THAT SHE STARTED CRYING WAS THE DAY WHEN SHE WAS ABLE TO STAND UP IN COURT IN FRONT OF THE GUYS WHO COMMITTED THE CRIME AND TELL THEM WHAT THEY HAD DONE TO HER. AND THAT WAS THE DAY SHE STARTED REAL GRIEF PROCESS AND REAL CRYING. SO THE DELAYED REACTION AT THAT POINT STARTED FOR HER.

Mary says RIGHT. WELL, I WANT TO THANK ANGIE FOR CALLING. THAT MUST HAVE BEEN A VERY DIFFICULT CALL TO MAKE. WHAT STRUCK ME AS WELL ABOUT HER CALL IS, IT MUST BE VERY STRANGE FOR SOMEONE TO FEEL SUCH CONFLICTING EMOTIONS. YOU KNOW, THE JOY OF ONE EVENT AND THE TRAGEDY OF ANOTHER. I MEAN, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THOSE TWO EMOTIONS?

Gerry says IT'S LIKE A HUGE ROLE OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO. AND YOU KNOW, HAVING THE BIRTH OF ONE CHILD AND THE LOSS OF ANOTHER CHILD, CAN YOU IMAGINE? IT'S UNFATHOMABLE. CAN'T EVEN THINK BECAUSE IT'S SO INCOMPREHENSIBLE. YET WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE LIKE ANGIE HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS AND HAVE MANAGED TO SURVIVE. PROBABLY ANGIE HAS A FAIRLY NORMAL WELL-ESTABLISHED LIFE NOW AND PEOPLE DO RECOVER FROM TRAUMA. THAT'S THE POINT I SUPPOSE IS REALLY IMPORTANT HERE. PEOPLE DO RECOVER. AND EVEN THOUGH IT MAY TAKE TIME TO RECOVER, IT WILL HAPPEN. THE TRAUMA AND THE MEMORY OF THE LOST CHILD OR THE LOST PARENT OR WHATEVER THE PERSON HAS LOST WILL NEVER EVER GO AWAY BUT YOU DO LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS.

Mary says WE HAVE ANOTHER CALLER ON THE LINE. ELAINE IS CALLING FROM OTTAWA. HELLO. DO YOU HAVE A COMMENT OR A QUESTION?

The Caller says YES. YOUR SHOW IS ABOUT POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS. I WAS IN A CAR ACCIDENT 22 YEARS AGO. HIT BY A DRUNK DRIVER ON THE HIGHWAY. MY BROTHER WAS KILLED. MY STRESS HAS NEVER BEEN DEALT WITH. TO THIS DAY, I SUFFER LONG-LASTING EFFECTS, AND ABOUT THE TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, I MEAN, MY HEART GOES OUT TO THOSE PEOPLE.

Gerry says SO, ELAINE, FROM ALL THESE YEARS AGO YOU'RE FEELING THAT WATCHING THINGS ON TV IS BRINGING ALL OF THE STUFF BACK FOR YOU, THAT YOU EXPERIENCED AT THAT TIME. I WOULD SUGGEST JUST AS A METHOD OF TRYING TO COPE FOR YOU, IT MIGHT BE GOOD TO START WRITING SOME THINGS DOWN ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL. OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS OF AVENUES TO HELP DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF TRAUMA NOWADAYS. LOTS OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF TREATMENTS IN TRAUMA. AND I'M SURE IF YOU ARE ABLE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH SOMEONE, WE'D BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME NUMBERS TO CALL FOR THAT KIND OF HELP. BUT IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, I WOULD SUGGEST START WRITING DOWN YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS BECAUSE YOU MAY FIND THAT IS A GREAT SOURCE OF RECOVERY FOR DEALING WITH ALL THAT STUFF THAT COMES. IT'S A GREAT WAY. WE OFTEN IN THERAPY TELL PEOPLE TO WRITE THINGS DOWN BECAUSE IT'S VERY CATHARTIC TO WRITE THINGS DOWN, GETS OUT FROM THE... OUT FROM THE INSIDE, YOU SEE IT WRITTEN DOWN ON PAPER, YOU THINK, YEAH, THAT IS ME, NEXT WEEK WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, YOU MIGHT BEGIN TO THINK, OH, YEAH, A LITTLE BIT BETTER THE NEXT WEEK.

Mary says FORM OF A DIARY.

Gerry says YEAH.

Mary says ARE THERE OTHER THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO THAT CAN HELP THEM? THAT'S A VERY SIMPLE, EASY THING THAT PEOPLE CAN DO.

Gerry says ABSOLUTELY, MARY, VERY EASY, VERY SIMPLE TO WRITE A DIARY OR JOURNAL. SOME OF THE OTHER DIFFICULT THINGS MAYBE TO DO ARE LIFT UP A TELEPHONE AND SPEAK TO SOMEONE ON A CRISIS LINE. OR IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE AN EMPLOYEE ASSISTANCE PROGRAM, YOU CAN PICK UP THE TELEPHONE AND ASK TO SPEAK TO A COUNCILLOR RIGHT AWAY. OR EVEN IF YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, OUR WEBSITE IS OPEN TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC TO USE COUNSELING VIA THE INTERNET. WE HAVE A CHAT ROOM ON THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION. AND WE'VE HAD HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF OVER THE PAST TWO DAYS SEEK ADVICE AND COMFORT FROM OUR CHAT ROOM. THAT'S EASY TO DO. AND THERE ARE LOTS OF THEM OUT THERE. WE JUST HAPPEN TO BE ONE AMONG VERY MANY. AND THOSE CAN BE VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL AT HELPING PEOPLE JUST EXPRESS WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE. AS A THERAPIST, YOU KNOW, AS SOMEONE IN THIS TRAUMA PROFESSION, WE REALLY BELIEVE FIRMLY THAT BEGINNING TO TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS IS BEGINNING THE HEALING PROCESS. THAT TALKING CAN BE TALKING TO YOUR YOURSELF, IT CAN BE TALKING TO SOMEONE ELSE, OR IT CAN BE TALKING TO A PIECE OF PAPER, WHICHEVER METHOD WORKS FOR YOU, TRY IT. THAT'S WHAT I WOULD ALWAYS SAY.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALLER. NADIA CALLING. HELLO.

The Caller says HI.

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD.

The Caller says HELLO?

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD. YOU'RE ON THE AIR.

The Caller says I'M 11. I WAS JUST WONDERING WHY ISN'T THE GOVERNMENT NOT REASSURING THE PEOPLE THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN?

Mary says YOU MEAN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT?

The Caller says YEAH.

Gerry says YOU KNOW, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION, NADIA. VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION EVEN FOR SOMEONE OF MY AGE TO ANSWER. THE ONLY THING I CAN SAY TO YOU IS THAT WE LIVE IN A VERY SAFE SOCIETY. CANADA'S A SAFE COUNTRY IN WHICH TO LIVE. WE'RE SURROUNDED BY WONDERFUL INSTITUTIONS THAT MAKE US ALL FEEL SAFE. AND I TRUST AND PRAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT ARE DOING EVERYTHING THAT THEY POSSIBLY CAN TO MAKE EVERY ONE OF US FEEL SAFE. PRESIDENT BUSH IS R HAS ALREADY DONE HIS PART IN ASSURING THE WORLD THAT HE WILL DO WHATEVER IS IN HIS POWER TO MAKE HIS COUNTRY SAFE. AND PRIME MINISTER CHRETIEN HAS DONE THE SAME FOR US. AND I'M SURE YOU PROBABLY FIND IN YOUR OWN HOME, NADIA, THAT YOUR PARENTS ARE DOING THE SAME FOR YOU. I THINK IT'S UP TO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US TO REASSURE ONE ANOTHER THAT THAT SAFETY IS THERE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE THERE.

Mary says WELL, NADIA BRINGS UP A VERY GOOD POINT. WE DISCUSSED THIS YESTERDAY ABOUT OUR CHILDREN, WHO ARE BOMBARDED WITH THIS KIND OF INFORMATION. WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE EVEN WATCHING TELEVISION, YOU KNOW, IT'S THERE AT SCHOOL, IT'S IN THE PLAYGROUNDS, THEY HEAR ADULTS, THEIR PARENTS TALKING ABOUT IT. AND THEY BECOME VERY SCARED AND THEY'RE FEARFUL OF THEIR SAFETY.

Gerry says OF COURSE. THAT'S THE FIRST FEAR. ALWAYS WHEN EVERYONE HEARS OF SUCH A TRAUMATIC EVENT HAPPENING WE THINK, THIS COULD BE HAPPENING IN CANADA, IT COULD BE HAPPENING IN OUR OWN BACKYARD. SO, THE FEAR FOR SAFETY IS ONE OF THOSE RESPONSES THAT YOU GET WHEN YOU'RE TRAUMATIZED. PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY THINK, AM I GOING TO BE SAFE TODAY? AM I GOING TO BE SAFE THE NEXT TIME I'M ON A PLANE? YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT YOUR OWN PAST HISTORY ON A PLANE. I TRAVEL MAYBE SEVEN OR EIGHT TIMES A MONTH BY AIR. AND I KEEP REASSURING MYSELF THAT AIR TRANSPORT IS ONE OF THE SAFEST FORMS OF TRANSPORT. SO... AND I KEEP REASSURING OTHER PEOPLE THAT CHILDREN'S SAFETY IS GUARANTEED IN CANADA. WE HAVE A VERY, VERY SAFE COUNTRY. BUT I DO ENCOURAGE ALL PARENTS TO SPEAK OPENLY ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED. I DO ENCOURAGE ALL PARENTS TO SPEAK TO THEIR CHILDREN IN AUTHENTIC LANGUAGE AND REASSURE THEM CONSTANTLY ABOUT THEIR SAFETY. THEY HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE DIFFICULTIES, OF COURSE, MARY, YOU CAN'T GO TO A CHILD AND FORCE THEM TO BE POSITIVE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SAY SOME BAD THINGS HAVE HAPPENED AND SOME BAD PEOPLE HAVE DONE THESE BAD THINGS.

Mary says AUTHENTIC LANGUAGE, I'M NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN.

Gerry says REAL TRUE LANGUAGE, DON'T FLUFF IT UP FOR CHILDREN BECAUSE CHILDREN ARE VERY, VERY QUICK AT PICKING UP LANGUAGE THAT'S NOT TRUE AND IS NOT AUTHENTIC AND IS KIND OF... IS FLUFFING, THAT'S THE ONLY WORD I CAN THINK OF, WHEN I MEAN AUTHENTIC, I MEAN SPEAK FROM THE HEART AND DON'T TRY TO FORCE ON CHILDREN SOMETHING THAT'S NOT THERE. PARENTS HAVE FEARS, TOO. AND I THINK IF PARENTS SHARE SOME OF THEIR FEARS, BUT ALSO REASSURE CHILDREN AT THE SAME TIME, THAT THEY LOVE THEM, THAT THEY'RE THERE TO PROTECT THEM AND BE WITH THEM TO MAKE THEM FEEL SAFE, THAT WILL WORK SO MANY, MANY WONDERS.

Mary says I'VE JUST BEEN TOLD, AN INCREDIBLE STOREY. APPARENTLY IN NEW YORK, AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE SITE, FIVE FIRE FIGHTERS HAVE JUST BEEN RESCUED IN AN SUV AND TWO OF THE FIRE FIGHTERS ACTUALLY WALKED AWAY. FROM THE SITE.

Gerry says SUCH GOOD NEWS.

Mary says NOW, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, WE HEAR AN INCREDIBLE STOREY LIKE THAT.

Gerry says IT GIVES US SENSE OF HOPE THAT THIS IS STILL A RECOVERY. THAT IT'S NOT BECOME A RESCUE. STILL RECOVERY. AND THERE IS POSSIBLE STILL TO HAVE PEOPLE BROUGHT OUT ALIVE FROM THOSE RUINS AND BEING RETURNED TO THE... TO THEIR FAMILIES AND LOVED ONES IN CONTACT... INTACT. THAT'S GREAT. IT GIVES EVERYONE A SENSE OF HOPE. AT THE SAME TIME, IT STILL TURNS TO THE SENSE OF SADNESS, STILL SO MANY PEOPLE WHO WHOM THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE.

Mary says LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALL HERE. MARINO CALLING FROM TORONTO. HELLO.

The Caller says YES. HI, HOW ARE YOU?

Mary says I'M FINE, THANK YOU. GO AHEAD.

The Caller says WITH THIS INCIDENT, BUT TWO MONTHS AGO, I WAS DRIVING, TAXI COMPANY, ABOUT 2:00 IN THE MORNING I HAD A CALL. THE POLICE WAS AT HOME. AND ONE OF THEM JUST MOVED OUT TWO MONTHS PREVIOUS TO THE INCIDENT. AND THEN WITHIN... VERY ANGRY AT US. AND THE ONLY THING THEY KNEW, WHEN THE POLICE COME IN, THEY SAID THAT YOUR DAUGHTER'S APARTMENT. IT WAS SIX DAYS LATER.

Mary says MARINO, THIS WAS YOUR DAUGHTER, I'M ASSUMING?

The Caller says YES.

Mary says YES.

Gerry says MARINO, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'RE STILL VERY MUCH IN A SITUATION OF SHOCK AROUND THE SITUATION. THE BEST THING I COULD OFFER YOU AT THIS POINT IS TO CALL SOMEONE TO SPEAK TO SOMEONE. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU TRY TO ESTABLISH A SENSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE. TRAUMA IS SUCH A HARD, HARD THING TO GO THROUGH. AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW EXPERIENCING A WHOLE SERIES OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF EMOTIONS. NOT INCLUDING, YOU KNOW... OR ALSO INCLUDING THE SHOCK AND THE ANGER AND THE GRIEF AND THE SADNESS. AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU'RE STILL IN THOSE VERY, VERY INITIAL STAGES. I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW, TO TALK TO SOMEONE. AND EVEN, IF NECESSARY, CALL UP YOUR TVO AND ASK THEM FOR MY NUMBER AFTER THE PROGRAM AND I CAN PUT YOU IN TOUCH WITH SOMEONE.

Mary says YEAH. WE WILL BE GIVING YOUR PHONE NUMBER, PEOPLE CAN CALL IN THERE. I'D JUST LIKE TO REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT THE MANY DIFFERENT FACES OF TRAUMA TODAY. NOT JUST THE TRAUMA THAT'S HAPPENING IN NEW YORK CITY. AND WE DO INVITE YOU TO CALL, IF YOU'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES, YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE GIVE US A CALL. IN TORONTO, THE NUMBER IS 416-484-2727. OR 1-888-411-1234.

The phone numbers reappear briefly.

A says AND WE DO HAVE ANOTHER CALLER ON THE LINE. WE'VE GOT CLARENCE CALLING FROM WHITBY. HELLO.

The Caller says HI. I WOULD JUST LIKE TO OFFER MY SYMPATHY, I GUESS, FOR POLICE OFFICERS, FIRE FIGHTERS AND AMBULANCES. I USED TO BE A POLICE OFFICER MYSELF. IN NEW BRUNSWICK IN 1981, I WAS SHOT FIVE TIMES, SUDDENLY, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND LEFT FOR DEAD WHILE I WAS ON DUTY. AND THE POST-TRAUMATIC DISORDER, THE FEAR AND THE FLASHBACK, WAS PRETTY MUCH AS A RESULT OF THE SUDDENNESS OF THE ACT. AND THE UNCONTROLLABLE EFFECT THAT YOU HAVE ON THAT. SO, I JUST WANT TO ENCOURAGE THE PEOPLE THAT TIME AND DISTANCE, I HAD TO REMOVE MYSELF FROM THE PROVINCE, COME TO ONTARIO HERE, AND AS WELL SUPPORT GROUPS, AS WELL AS THAT, IS IMPORTANT AS WELL. SO I JUST WANT TO SAY, IT'S A BIG ROAD, IT'S A ROUGH ROAD AT TIMES, BUT IF PEOPLE WILL COME TOGETHER AND SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER AND HELP ONE ANOTHER THROUGH THESE TIMES, IT'S A BIG HELP.

Mary says THANK YOU, CLARENCE.

Gerry says I THINK, CLARENCE, YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD POINT. SUPPORT GROUPS ARE WONDERFUL SENSE OF BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER. THAT'S PART OF WHAT WE DO AS A COMPANY. WE PROVIDE THOSE KIND OF SUPPORT GROUPS FOR ORGANIZATIONS WHERE WE BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND BEGIN THE INITIAL STAGE OF TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING. IT'S A VERY COURAGEOUS THING FOR YOU TO HAVE COME ON THE AIR, CLARENCE, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS AND TALK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND I'M SURE WATCHING THE FIRE FIGHTERS AND THE POLICEMEN IN NEW YORK HAS OPENED UP SOME OF THOSE OLD WOUNDS. I JUST HOPE THAT YOU CAN LEARN FROM YOUR OWN SELF, TOO, AND GO OUT THERE AND BE AN ADVOCATE FOR THAT KIND OF WORK THAT CAN BE SO USEFUL TO HELP PEOPLE ON THE... IN THE RECOVERY STAGE.

Mary says NOW, CLARENCE MENTIONED THAT HE ACTUALLY FELT IT NECESSARY TO LEAVE HIS HOME AND MOVE TO TORONTO. WOULD THAT ALSO BE PART OF A RECOVERY PROCESS FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT THEY NEED TO TOTALLY LEAVE THE AREA WHERE THE INCIDENT happened.

Gerry says SURE, MAYBE FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDERS ACCOMPANIES SUCH A TERRIBLE ACCIDENT CAN MAKE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, DO... OR MAKE HUGE CHANGES IN THEIR LIFE. OBVIOUSLY, FOR A SITUATION OF BEING SHOT, YOU FEEL AS IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE SAFE IN YOUR OWN ENVIRONMENT, I'M JUMP TO GO CONCLUSIONS... CONCLUSIONS ABOUT CLARENCE'S DECISION TO MOVE. THEY MAY NOT FEEL IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENT. THE ONLY THING THEY FEEL THEY CAN DO IS REMOVE THEMSELVES ENTIRELY AND START AFRESH IN A DIFFERENT TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT. THAT'S FAIRLY COMMON FOR PEOPLE IN MAJOR TYPES OF DISASTERS. THAT THEY MAKE LIFE DECISIONS, DECISIONS THAT WILL IMPACT THE WAY THEY'RE GOING TO LIVE THE REST OF THEIR LIFE. IT'S LIKE THEY FORGET ABOUT ALL THE INSIGNIFICANT THINGS, YOU KNOW, THE SMALL DAY-TO-DAY FOIBLES THAT HAPPEN TO ALL OF US THEY BEGIN TO RECOGNIZE THAT LIFE IS ABOUT FINDING MEANING AND IMPORTANT THINGS, YOUR LOVED ONES, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, AND SO, SOME PEOPLE MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGES TO MAKE THAT POSSIBLE.

Mary says OKAY. LET'S TAKE ANOTHER CALLER HERE. WE'VE GOT JACKLYN CALLING FROM TORONTO. HELLO, JACKLYN.

The Caller says HI, THERE.

Mary says HI. GO AHEAD.

The Caller says I'M 38 YEARS OLD. TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO, I SUFFERED TWO SEPARATE CAR ACCIDENTS. THE PAIN AND THE TRAUMA THAT THIS HAS LEFT IN MY LIFE HAS CAUSED ME A LOT OF HURT AND UPSET. BASED ON A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIFFERENT REASONS, NOT JUST FROM PHYSICAL PAIN, BUT FROM THE PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOTIONAL PAIN OF SUFFERING AND NOT HAVING MY PAIN BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE INSURANCE COMPANIES. THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PEOPLE IN MY SITUATION. WHO HAVE PAID INSURANCE AND HAVE BEEN IN CAR ACCIDENTS. THIS CIRCUMSTANCE HAS CHANGED MY LIFE, THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT MYSELF, MY FAMILY SITUATION. YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, BECAUSE OF MY AGE, I AM GOING THROUGH A WHOLE BUNCH OF CHANGES AND EMOTIONAL THINGS THAT I'M DEALING WITH. AND I JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GO. AT FIRST I WAS BEING REALLY, REALLY STRONG, AND NOW I FEEL I CAN'T BE STRONG ANYMORE. I'M VERY DEPRESSED. HOPEFUL SOMETIMES AND I JUST WANT TO MAKE ONE EXTRA POINT THAT IN GOING THROUGH ALL THIS FOR THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS, I'VE COME TO SOME POSITIVE DECISIONS ABOUT ADVOCATING FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF MOTOR VEHICLE ACCIDENTS.

Gerry says THAT'S A REALLY GOOD THING, JACKLYN, TO TURN YOUR OWN SENSE OF BEING OVERWHELMED AND AFFECTED BY THE TRAUMA TO TURN IT INTO KIND OF ACTION ON BEHALF OF ALL THE PEOPLE. VERY AL TRUE US STICK ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, THE RECOVERY PERIOD FROM A VERY SERIOUS ACCIDENT AND A COUPLE OF ACCIDENTS IS INDEED VERY LONG. IF YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE KIND OF... SEE IT AS A TYPE OF GRIEF BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH SOMETHING THAT'S MADE YOU LOSE A PART OF YOUR LIFE IN MANY WAYS. IT'S MADE YOU LOSE A PART OF YOUR GOOD HEALTH. AND THE RECOVERY PERIOD FROM THAT GENERALLY CAN BE ANYWHERE FROM 18 MONTHS TO THREE OR FOUR YEARS, DEPENDING ON WHAT KIND OF SUPPORT SYSTEMS ARE AVAILABLE TO YOU. I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU FOR THE DEPRESSIVE SIDE OF IT, SEEK HELP FROM YOUR DOCTORS BECAUSE THERE IS GREAT HELP OUT THERE NOWADAYS FOR PEOPLE GOING THROUGH ANY KIND OF DEPRESSIVE ILLNESS. AND I WOULD ALSO ENCOURAGE YOU TO TURN TO SELF-HELP GROUPS, TOO IF AT ALL POSSIBLE IN YOUR AREA. AND, AGAIN, YOU'LL GET MY NUMBER AT THE END AND IF I CAN BE OF ANY HELP, I CAN STEER YOU IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

Mary says JACQUELINE BRINGS UP A VERY GOOD POINT, THOUGH, WHAT IF YOU YOURSELF ARE STRONG AT THE BEGINNING AND YOU'RE DETERMINED, YOU DO WANT TO GET BETTER, BOTH PHYSICALLY, EMOTIONALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY, BUT THERE ARE FACTORS, YOU KNOW, SUCH AS HER INSURANCE, AND MAYBE EVEN OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE BEYOND YOUR CONTROL AND YOU FEEL THEY'RE REALLY HOLDING YOU BACK, YOU GET HUNG UP ON THEM. I MEAN, HOW DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THINGS?

Gerry says AND THAT'S THE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT PART BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS IN LIFE THAT ARE WITHIN OUR CONTROL AND THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS ARE NOT IN OUR CONTROL, LIKE THE WEATHER, THE STOCK MARKET, THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, THEY'RE OUT OF OUR CONTROL. THE ONLY THING I CAN SUGGEST TO PEOPLE IS THAT WE CONCENTRATE MOST OF OUR ENERGY ON THE THINGS THAT WE CAN CONTROL IN LIFE, ON THE HERE AND NOW. AND THAT MEANS TAKING CONTROL OF OUR RECOVERY ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. ONE DAY AT A TIME. AND NOT DO TOO MUCH PLANNING INTO THE FUTURE, JUST LIVE ONE DAY AT A TIME. AND TAKE AS MUCH CONTROL OF THE HERE AND NOW AS WE POSSIBLY CAN.

Mary says OKAY. WELL, WE DO HAVE ANOTHER CALLER ON THE LINE. JOHN IS CALLING FROM NEWMARKET. HELLO, JOHN. HELLO, JOHN, ARE YOU THERE? NO, I THINK WE'VE LOST JOHN. YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO GO BACK AS WELL BECAUSE EARLIER WE MENTIONED ABOUT VOLUNTEERS AND, OF COURSE, IT'S NOT JUST THE FIRE FIGHTERS AND THE DOCTORS AND THE NURSES AND EMERGENCY HELP WHO ARE ON SITE, THERE ARE ALSO VOLUNTEERS IN MANY FIELDS WHO ARE THERE TO HELP OUT. IS IT JUST OUR HUMAN NATURE TO HAVE A VERY ULTRA US STICK RESPONSE IN TIMES OF CRISIS?

Gerry says YOU KNOW WHAT, IN MY EXPERIENCE OF WORKING WITH TRAUMATIC EVENTS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, I'VE ALWAYS SEEN THAT GOOD SIDE OF PEOPLE COME OUT IN A TIME OF DISASTER. I THINK THE BASIC HUMAN RESPONSE IS AN ALTRUISTIC RESPONSE, I REALLY BELIEVE IN THE GOODNESS OF HUMAN BEINGS, I REALLY BELIEVE WHEN OTHER PEOPLE ARE IN NEED, OTHER PEOPLE WILL REACH OUT IMMEDIATELY TO HELP. I THINK THAT'S AN INTRINSIC PART OF BEING A HUMAN BEING. AS I SAID EARLIER, SOME BAD PEOPLE IN THE WORLD AND SOME BAD PEOPLE DO SOME BAD THINGS, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF HUMANS WHEN THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION OF BEING ABLE TO HELP WILL REACH OUT AND GIVE THAT HELP AND I THINK THAT'S JUST PART OF THE FASCINATION OF BEING HUMAN.

Mary says YEAH. CAN YOU THINK, HAS THERE BEEN ANY INCREDIBLE EXAMPLES OR SOMETHING YOU CAN REMEMBER IN YOUR PAST THAT REALLY STRUCK YOU AS BEING A WONDERFUL RESPONSE?

Gerry says I'VE HEARD LOTS AND LOTS OF THINGS WHEN I'VE ENCOUNTERED GREAT RESPONSES. I REMEMBER ONCE IN A SITUATION, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, I WAS HELPING A GROUP OF DISABLED CHILDREN ATTEND A CONFERENCE OR ATTEND A SPECIAL EVENT. AND THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE, THEY WORKED TIRELESSLY DAY AND NIGHT TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE CHILDREN HAD A WONDERFUL TIME BECAUSE IT WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT WORK. EXTREMELY HARD WORK. BUT WE WORKED ROUND THE CLOCK, 24 HOURS A DAY FOR ABOUT THREE DAYS WITHOUT SLEEPING JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE CHILDREN WERE HAVING THE BEST TIME THAT THEY POSSIBLY COULD HAVE. IT WASN'T ADVERSITY. BUT IT WAS A TIME WHEN PEOPLE REALLY BANDED TOGETHER. BUT EVEN IN ADVERSITY, I'VE SEEN LOTS OF PEOPLE JUST REACH OUT AND DO WHATEVER THEY POSSIBLY COULD. LOCKERBIE IS A GREAT EXAMPLE FOR THAT. LOCKERBIE HAPPENED, THE AIR CRASH, STILL IN SCOTLAND, AND THERE WAS A HUGE, HUGE, ALMOST LIKE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE FROM THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE TO HELP OUT IN LOCKERBIE AND THAT LASTED FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS AFTER THE PLANE CRASH. AND WAS A DEMONSTRATION OF THE GREAT ALTRUISM OF PEOPLE WHEN THERE IS ADVERSITY.

Mary says I THINK WE'VE GOT JOHN BACK ON THE LINE. HELLO, JOHN. HI, GO AHEAD. HELLO.

The Caller I WAS... HELLO. I WAS EMOTIONALLY TRAUMATIZED OVER A LONG PERIOD. I WAS ALSO PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED MORE THAN ONCE. AND I'M HAVING A LOT OF TROUBLE COMING TO TERMS WITH FEELING VICTIMIZED ALL THE TIME. AND LIKE, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN I GO OUTSIDE, I'M FEARFUL. WHEN THIS THING HAPPENED IN UNITED STATES, I FIND IT REALLY... REALLY DEPRESSS ME. I FEEL MORE THAN IT SHOULD. I JUST WONDERED WHAT SKILLS, COPING SKILLS, YOU KNOW, SOME EXAMPLES, YOU KNOW, WHAT I COULD USE TO DEAL WITH THIS.

Gerry says YEAH. JOHN, WHAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING, IF YOU EXPERIENCE TRAUMA OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, AND THEN SUFFER AN ASSAULT, THEN THERE'S BEEN CUMULATIVE EFFECT, AND THAT BUILDS UP INSIDE AND WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING ON TV OR WITNESS ANOTHER HUGE EVENT, IT'S GOING TO OPEN IT ALL UP AGAIN. IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT YOU MIGHT BE THINKING OF YOURSELF AS HAVING A MORE SEVERE REACTION THAN YOU SHOULD. IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT YOU'RE HAVING A SEVERE REACTION BECAUSE THAT'S MY FIELD, AND I WORK WITH VICTIMS OF TRAUMA, YOU KNOW, I'VE DONE THAT FOR YEARS. WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST IS, YEAH, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY GOOD COUNSELING THERAPY IS A GREAT SOURCE OF HELP. IF COUNSELING THERAPY IS NOT AN OPTION, THEN JOURNALING IS A GOOD OPTION. IF JOURNALING DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU, THEN SELF-HELP GROUPS. ALL THOSE THINGS CAN BE WONDERFUL. I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MAYBE FOR YOU AT THE MOMENT IS JUST TO LOOK AT DAY-TO-DAY LIVING AND MANAGE TO GET THROUGH FROM DAY-TO-DAY DOING THE BEST THING YOU CAN, MAKING SURE THAT YOU GET GOOD SLEEP, EAT WELL, DRINK WELL, EVEN EXERCISE, IF YOU'RE INTO THAT, WALKING IS A GREAT SOURCE OF CLEARING THE MIND. IF YOU CAN GO FOR A LONG BRISK WALK, IT CAN BE SO THERAPEUTIC. BUT TALKING TO SOMEONE IS PERHAPS THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE. AND YOU'VE ALREADY STARTED THAT PROCESS BY CALLING US. I ENCOURAGE YOU TO KEEP THAT PROCESS GOING. AND OBVIOUSLY YOU'LL SEE NUMBERS AT THE END WHERE WE'LL BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME HELP WITH THAT.

Mary says I'M GOING TO END OFF BY SAYING, I'M REALLY STRUCK BY THE CALLS TODAY.

Gerry says AMAZING.

Mary says AND THE FACT THAT IT'S A WHOLE AREA THAT I HADN'T REALIZED, THAT THE TRAGEDY IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON IS BRINGING UP ALL THESE OLD MEMORIES OF TRAGEDIES IN THESE PEOPLE'S LIVES.

Gerry says YEAH. FOR ME, THAT'S NATURAL TO SEE HAPPEN. EVERY DISASTER THAT WE ENCOUNTER IN OUR WORK IS ALWAYS A TRIGGER FOR MEMORIES, FEELINGS, EMOTIONS FROM THE PAST TO COME INTO THE PRESENT MOMENT. AND COME INTO THE PRESENT MOMENT WITH EVEN GREATER VIGOR THAN THEY WERE IN THE PAST EVEN AND IT'S UP TO OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE LIKE ME TO TRY AND REASSURE PEOPLE THAT THAT'S OKAY, IT'S NORMAL, AND TO GIVE THEM ALL THOSE KIND OF TIPS AND STRATEGIES ABOUT WHAT THEY CAN DO FOR THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND WEEKS AS THIS TRAGEDY UNFOLDS IN FRONT OF OUR FACES.

Mary says THANK YOU VERY MUCH, GERRY. BEST OF LUCK WITH YOUR WORK.

Gerry says THANK YOU, YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

Mary says GERRY SMITH WITH THE WAR AND SHAPEL CONSULTANTS, NATIONAL TRAUMA REPORTING DIRECTOR. NOW, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SOMEWHERE TO TALK ABOUT THIS UNFOLDING TRAGEDY, THE EXPERIENCES IN YOUR LIFE, HOW IT'S AFFECTING YOU, WARREN SHEPELL HAS A CHAT SITE. WWW.WARRENSHEPELL.COM. CALL THIS NUMBER, ALSO.

A slate reads "Distress Centre, 1-800-486-1456."

A says AND PLEASE STAY WITH US BECAUSE AFTER THE BREAK, WE WILL LOOK AT THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF THESE TERRORIST ATTACKS.

A commercial break starts.

A commercial for Studio 2, a current affairs show on weeknights at 8, plays.
Then, a commercial plays for Masterworks, 10 PM show on books.
Clips show the Collingwood Elvis Festival. Several men introduce themselves as Elvis Presley.

The commercial break ends.

(music plays)

Back in the studio, Mary says WELL, THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IS DEVASTATED BY THE CRASH AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE. MANY HAVE LOST COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS, AS WELL, THERE IS TALK EVEN OF A GLOBAL RECESSION. THE TORONTO STOCK EXCHANGE RESUMED TRADING TODAY, BUT THE MARKETS ARE STILL CLOSED IN NEW YORK. DAVID STEINHART IS A BUSINESS REPORTER WITH THE "NATIONAL POST." HE'S BEEN WATCHING THE MARKETS CLOSELY AND WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

David is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short dark hair. He's wearing a black suit and a blue shirt.

Mary continues HELLO, DAVID.

David says HOW ARE YOU?

Mary says FINE, THANK YOU. NOW, TELL ME, WHAT IS THE STOREY WITH MIDWAY AIRLINES?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "David Steinhart. National Post."

David says WELL, THIS WAS A FASCINATING STOREY YESTERDAY. MIDWAY AIRLINES CAME OUT AFTER THE WHOLE ATTACK AND AFTER ALL THE AFTERMATH OF THE ATTACK AND SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COPE WITH ANYTHING, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO START UP AFTER THIS, FIRED 1700 EMPLOYEES ON THE SPOT, BASICALLY VERY SMALL AIRLINE AND A LOT OF AIRLINES ARE GOING TO FIND NOW, PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO WANT TO FLY, RAISE PRICES, FUELS ARE GOING TO COST MORE, ESPECIALLY IF THE U.S. RETALIATES IN AN OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRY, FUEL IS GOING TO GO UP. WE ARE AS STONED YESTERDAY. CAME OUT AND SAID THEY'RE GOING TO FIRE EVERYBODY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE OF THIS WITH THIS ATTACK BECAUSE MID-RANGE COMPANIES ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD GO ON.

Mary says MIDWAY IS THE FIRST CASUALTY IN AIRLINE BUSINESS.

David says IT SEEMS SO, YEAH.

Mary says DO YOU EXPECT ANY MORE IN THE AIRLINE SPECIFICALLY?

David says LOOK AT IT, AIR CANADA'S GOING TO... ALL PRICES WILL GO UP. WE HAVE SEEN AIRLINES SUFFER IN THE LAST YEAR OR TWO ANYWAY. FUEL COSTS ARE ALWAYS HUGE. SEAT SALES, THEY INTRODUCE SEAT SALES SO PEOPLE CAN SORT OF AFFORD TO FLY. NOW WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE, THE HUMAN ELEMENT COME INTO THE AIRLINES WHERE PEOPLE ARE JUST NOT GOING TO WANT TO GET ON AIRPLANES. IF THAT HAPPENS, ALL OF A SUDDEN NOBODY'S BUYING TICKETS. WHEN NOBODY'S BUYING TICKETS, NOBODY'S FLYING, THEREFORE, THEY SUFFER. YOU'LL SEE CASUALTIES. NOT SURE THE BIG ONES, THEY'LL STAY IN BUSINESS BECAUSE PEOPLE STILL WILL FLY EVENTUALLY. THEY'LL LOSE THE SMALLER TOURIST BUSINESS, LOSE PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY, I WANTED TO GO TO EUROPE THIS SUMMER, I'M NOT GOING TO GO NOW, I'M NERVOUS AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN REVENUE. ALL TICKET REVENUE.

Mary says I'VE TALKED TO SOME BUSINESS PEOPLE AND THEY'VE SAID YOU KNOW WHAT, FOR THOSE SHORT DESTINATIONS I AM NOW TAKING THE CAR. I AM GOING TO DRIVE TO NEW YORK, I'M GOING TO DRIVE TO MONTREAL. SO YOU DON'T THINK THIS IS ISOLATED?

David says OH, NOT AT ALL. NOTHING ISOLATED ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING. BUSINESS WISE ACROSS THE BOARD EVERYBODY WILL SUFFER. TWO BIGGEST BUSINESSES ARE GOING TO BE AIRLINES AND INSURANCE COMPANIES. ONCE THOSE CLAIMS IN, YOU ARE GOING TO SEE HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CLAIMS, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY WE'VE GOT MASSIVE, MASSIVE CLAIMS COMING IN, LOSS OF LIFE CLAIMS, BUILDINGS, PHYSICAL, EVERYTHING WILL BE... I MEAN, EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET PAID, WILL HAVE TO GET PAID HERE. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE HAVE INSURANCE.

Mary says RIGHT. WELL, WE'VE EVEN HEARD OF COMPANIES ACTUALLY IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE, FOR INSTANCE, MORGAN STANLEY, CANNOT ACCOUNT FOR HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF EMPLOYEES. DO WE KNOW OF ANY OTHER COMPANIES THAT WILL BE WIPED OUT BECAUSE OF THIS?

David says WELL, IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE, I BELIEVE THERE WAS SOMETHING LIKE 450 COMPANIES IN THE TWO BUILDINGS. OKAY. MORGAN STANLEY, BIGGEST TENANT 35RKS00 EMPLOYEES. NOW, THE HEADS HAVE COME OUT AND SAID, THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR EMPLOYEES ARE ACCOUNTED FOR. NOW THAT COULD MEAN 2,000 OF 3500. RUDOLPH, MAYOR OF NEW YORK, SAID ALREADY 5,000 PEOPLE STILL ON A MISSING PERSONS LIFT. THEREFORE, IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, GOING TO BE A LOT OF PEOPLE MISSING. US IN THE FINANCIAL JOURNALISM COMMUNITY, WE DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE ALL THE TIME. I THINK YOU HAVE TO KEEP TRYING TO PUT A HUMAN FACE ON THIS STOREY BECAUSE I KNOW I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE A LOT. SO I DON'T NO IF SOME OF MY FRIENDS MAY NOT BE AROUND ANYMORE EITHER.

Mary says NOW BMO'S, HAS MADE A DIRE PREDICTION THAT THIS IS GOING TO LAUNCH US INTO A GLOBAL RECESSION. DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

David says WELL, I THINK THREE DAYS AGO, MANY PEOPLE STILL BELIEVED WE WERE THERE ANYWAY, HEADED THERE ANYWAY. THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN IN HORRENDOUS SHAPE FOR ABOUT A YEAR. WE HAVE SEEN ALL KINDS OF THINGS HAPPENING. THE MARKET'S IMPLODING, NORTEL DOWN TO 7.50, $8 A SHARE. WILL THIS PLUNGE US IN? I DIDN'T SAY THREE DAYS AGO, I BELIEVE NOW IT MAY. I'M NOT GOING TO SAY IT WILL FULLY. I THINK WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE IF WE WERE GOING TO RECOVER, WE'RE NOT GOING TO RECOVER NOW. ALL THE ELEMENTS MAY HAVE BEEN IN PLACE FOR A FIRST QUARTER 2002 RECOVERY BUT THIS IS IT, MAY BE... MAYBE THE BIGGEST EVENT IN WORLD HISTORY, ONE OF THE BIGGEST WORLD'S EVENT, I DON'T OVERSTATE IT, WILL AFFECT IT, PEOPLE WILL BE SO NERVOUS, STAY AWAY, KEEP THEIR MONEY IN THE BANK, WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE SAVINGS, WHAT IF I GET LAID OFF, WHAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO MY BUSINESS. SLIDE INTO RECESSION. MORE POSSIBLE TODAY THAN IT WAS THREE DAYS AGO.

Mary says WHAT ABOUT THAT CONSUMER CONFIDENCE?

David says WELL, YOU KNOW-T DEPENDS... THREE DAYS AGO, BEFORE THE ATTACK, PEOPLE WERE CONFIDENT IN CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF THE ECONOMY, CONSUMERS, YOU KNOW, TWO-THIRDS OF THE ECONOMY IS BOLSTERED BY CONSUMER CONFIDENCE. I THINK PEOPLE ARE LESS CONFIDENT IN MANY INSTITUTIONS NOW. I THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE SAYING, GEE, YOU KNOW, I NEVER THOUGHT SOMETHING LIKE THIS COULD HAPPEN. ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN IN LIFE NOW. I THINK CONSUMERS WILL STILL SPEND MONEY ON THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED. BUT, BOY, THE TRIPS, MAYBE THE CARS, MAYBE I'LL HOLD ON TO MY HOUSE A LITTLE LONGER, I'LL DRIVE THAT 1992 CAR, THEY'LL HOLD ON TO THINGS, THEY WON'T SPEND AS MUCH MONEY. GOING TO BE A WHOLE ATTITUDE OF CAUTION ACROSS THE BOARD NOW, I THINK, AND PEOPLE WILL KEEP THEIR MONEY IN THEIR POCKET. YOU GOT TO REMEMBER, PEOPLE WANT MONEY, THEY NEED MONEY TO HAVE TO BUY THINGS. SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS AGAIN, WHO KNOWS, THEY HAVE TO HAVE THEIR SAVINGS IN THE BANK.

Mary says OKAY. BUT OTHER THAN SHERRY AND YOU, LIKE WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER EXPERTS, I MEAN, AREN'T THEY BEING A LITTLE MORE OPTIMISTIC?

David says IT DEPENDS WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO. PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT WE'RE NOT GOING INTO A RECESSION?

Mary says MORE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE OUTLOOK.

David says IT DEPENDS WHO YOU TALK TO AS WELL. I WAS ONE OF THE OPTIMISTIC PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT THE MARKETS ALWAYS. THE OTHER DAY I THINK AFFECTED EVERYBODY. PEOPLE SAY ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. THE ATTITUDE WE HAVE IN THE FINANCIAL WORLD NOW IS, HEY, I DIDN'T THINK WE WERE GOING INTO RECESSION, BUT, BOY, IF WE'RE GOING TO HIT ONE, THIS WILL HELP US PLUNGE INTO IT. THIS IS THE WORLD FINANCIAL COMMUNITY. CAPITALISM OF NORTH AMERICA. IT HAS BEEN DESTROYED. EFFECTIVELY. SO, PEOPLE ARE SAYING, GEE, HOW MUCH CONFIDENCE DO I HAVE IN THE ECONOMY NOW? GEE, LOOK AT NEW YORK, LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENING. AND THE DOW AND THE NASDAQ ARE CLOSED ANYWAY.

Mary says BOY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME. BUT I'M SURE WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS AGAIN. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN TODAY. OKAY. THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR TODAY. PLEASE JOIN ME AGAIN TOMORROW for More to Life at 1 PM. Thank you very much for watching.

Watch: World Trade Centre/Pentagon, Terrorism - The Aftermath 2