Transcript: Douglas Massey on the American record on race and poverty | Jan 21, 2006

A slate appears under the title "Segregation and the Perpetuation of
Poverty: Is Canada following the U.S? Douglas S. Massey. Princeton University."

Douglas appears behind the podium. He is in his forties, has a gray
beard, and white hair parted in the middle. He wears glasses a black
jacket, brown tie with white dots and a white and a blue-striped shirt.

Douglas says I GREW UP IN
WASHINGTON STATE, AND WENT TO
COLLEGE ABOUT 15 MILES FROM THE
CANADIAN BORDER, AND SPENT THE
FORMATIVE YEARS OF MY LIFE FROM
THE AGE OF ABOUT 18 TO 22,
LISTENING TO VANCOUVER TV AND
RADIO, SO I COUNT MYSELF VASTLY
MORE INFORMED ABOUT CANADA THAN
MY FELLOW AMERICANS.
[Audience Laughter]
ALTHOUGH, I CANNOT CLAIM ANY
SPECIAL EXPERTISE.
SO WHAT I WANT TO DO TONIGHT,
IS GIVE YOU A MORALITY TALE
ABOUT THE SITUATION IN YOUR
NEIGHBOUR TO YOUR SOUTH, THE
600-POUND GORILLA THAT LIES ON
YOUR SOUTHERN BORDER.
AND TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES
WITH RESPECT TO RACE AND CLASS,
AND HOW RACE AND CLASS HAVE
INTERACTED TO PRODUCE
PERNICIOUS CONDITIONS IN
AMERICAN NEIGHBOURHOODS, THAT
CONTINUE TO PERPETUATE A CYCLE
OF POVERTY AND DISADVANTAGE AND
VIOLENCE THAT PLAGUES OUR INNER
CITIES.
AND AT THE VERY END, I WILL
THEN COME BACK TO CANADA AND
DRAW UPON SCATTERED INFORMATION
THAT I WAS ABLE TO CULL FROM
RECENT STUDIES ON SEGREGATION
AND POVERTY IN THE CITY OF
TORONTO, AND GIVE MY
ASSESSMENTS OF WHERE TORONTO IS
NOW, AND WHERE CANADA MAY BE
HEADED IN THE FUTURE, AND TRY
TO DRAW SOME LESSONS FOR YOU.
AS YOU KNOW, THE PAST 25 YEARS,
30 YEARS HAVE BEEN A PERIOD OF
INCREDIBLY RAPID INCREASE IN
INCOME INEQUALITY, BOTH IN
CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES.
THIS IS THE GENIE COEFFICIENT
FOR INCOME INEQUALITY IN THE
UNITED STATES FROM 1950 TO
2000.

A slate under the title "Figure 6.3 Gini coefficient for family
income inequality in the United States 1950-2000." Shows a curved line that dips and surges upward from 1950s- 2000.

Douglas says THE GENIE COEFFICIENT IS THE
MOST WIDELY USED INDEX OF
INCOME INEQUALITY.
AS YOU CAN SEE, FROM 1950 TO
THE MID 1970s, INCOME
INEQUALITY WAS TRENDING SLOWLY
DOWNWARD.
AFTER THE MID 1970s, IT
BOTTOMED OUT, AND DURING THE
1980s BEGAN TO RISE, AND RISE
AT AN ACCELERATING RATE UP TO
THE YEAR 2000, SO THAT WE ARE
NOW IN THE UNITED STATES, A
VASTLY MORE UNEQUAL SOCIETY
THAN WE WERE FOR MOST OF THE
POST WAR PERIOD, INDEED, WE ARE
A VASTLY MORE UNEQUAL SOCIETY
THAN AT ANY POINT SINCE THE
EARLY 1900s.
INEQUALITIES WITH RESPECT TO
INCOME ARE PARALLELED BY
INEQUALITIES WITH RESPECT TO
WEALTH.

Another slate under the title "Figure 6.4 Gini Coefficient for
Household wealth inequality in the United States 1950-2000." The
graph shows a line that slowly rises and has a bump in 1980 before
Continuing to rise towards 2000.

Douglas says THIS IS THE GENIE COEFFICIENT
FOR HOUSEHOLD WEALTH FROM
ROUGHLY THE EARLY 1960s, TO
1996, WHEN MY DATA SERIES LEFT
OFF.
AS YOU CAN SEE, EVEN DURING THE
PERIOD OF DECLINING INCOME
INEQUALITY, THERE WAS A VERY,
VERY SMALL DECLINE IN THE LEVEL
OF WEALTH INEQUALITY AND THAT
REVERSED SOME TIME IN THE MID
TO LATE 1980s, PLATEAUED IN THE
EARLY 1990s, AND THEN ROCKETED
UPWARD DURING THE LATE 1990s TO
REACH UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS.
AND IF YOU RECALL THE SCALE ON
THE LEFT HAND SIDE OF THE AXIS
THERE, THESE LEVELS OF .8 AND.9 ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN THE
LEVELS WE OBSERVED IN THE LAST
ONE WHERE IT WAS ABOUT .38 TO.44.

The caption changes to "Douglas Massey. Sociologist, Princeton
University. "Segregation and the Perpetuation of Poverty."

Douglas says SO WEALTH IS
MUCH MORE INEQUITABLY
DISTRIBUTED THAN INCOME, AND
IT'S BEEN RISING AT AN EQUALLY
RAPID RATE.
AT THE SAME TIME, THAT THE RICH
AND POOR HAVE GROWN APART FROM
ONE ANOTHER IN SOCIETY THAT IS
PULLING APART IN SOCIAL SPACE,
THEY HAVE ALSO BEEN PULLING
APART IN PHYSICAL SPACE.

A slate shows a graph under the title "Segregation Between Affluent
and Poor." It shows four bar graphs for 1970, 1980, 1990, and 2000
And the increase and decrease from the previously mentioned years of
29, 40, 43, and 37 percent.

Douglas says WHAT WE HAVE
HERE ARE AVERAGE INDICATORS
BETWEEN AFFLUENT AND POOR IN
THE UNITED STATES-- IN U.S.
CITIES FROM 1970 TO 1980, AND
THE YEAR 2000, SO FROM '70 TO
1990, OVER THIS 20-YEAR PERIOD,
THERE WAS A FAIRLY STEADY AND
FAIRLY PRONOUNCED INCREASE IN
THE DEGREE TO WHICH RICH AND
POOR PEOPLE IN THE UNITED
STATES WERE SEGREGATED FROM ONE
ANOTHER.
SO NOT ONLY WERE THE RICH AND
POOR PULLING APART IN THE
INCOME DISTRIBUTION, THESE
NEW-- NEW DIVISIONS WERE BEING
PLAYED OUT SPATIALLY,
RESIDENTIALLY IN A GROWING
SEGREGATION BETWEEN AFFLUENT
AND POOR FAMILIES IN THE UNITED
STATES.
AND THIS GROWING SEPARATION WAS
ONLY MODERATED, AND ONLY
MODERATED A BIT BY THE
UNPRECEDENTED ECONOMIC BOOM OF
THE 1990s, WHICH, FOR THE--
WHICH FINALLY BROUGHT ABOUT
SOME INCREASE IN WAGES AT THE
LOW END OF THE INCOME
DISTRIBUTION, BUT, WHICH I
SUSPECT, SINCE THE YEAR 2000,
HAVE BEEN LARGELY WIPED OUT.
ALL OF THIS HAS OCCURRED IN THE
CONTEXT OF A VERY HIGH DEGREE
OF ONGOING RACIAL SEGREGATION
IN THE UNITED STATES.
SO WE HAVE RISING INCOME
INEQUALITY, RISING CLASS
SEGREGATION IN THE UNITED
STATES, IN A CONTEXT OF ONGOING
RACIAL SEGREGATION.

The slate changes to the title "Figure 1 Segregation experienced by
urban African Americans in 2000. Source: Iceland et al 2002.‚" The
pie chart reads white part of the pie chart is 31.1 percent at low
Segregation, the light blue is 21.3 percent at high segregation, and
Dark blue is 47.5 percent at hyper segregation.

Douglas says THIS FIGURE SUMMARISES THE
SITUATION IN THE YEAR 2000, THE
MOST RECENT CENSUS IN THE U.S.,
AND SHOWS THAT ALMOST HALF OF
ALL AFRICAN AMERICANS IN U.S.
CITIES, LIVE UNDER CONDITIONS
OF EXTREME SEGREGATION, SO
SEGREGATED THAT THEY CONFORM TO
A SET OF CRITERIA THAT NANCY
DENTON AND I USED TO DEFINE THE
CONDITION OF HYPER SEGREGATION.
HYPER SEGREGATION MEANS THAT
BLACKS AND WHITES ARE NOT
MERELY UNEVENLY DISTRIBUTED
AROUND THE URBAN ENVIRONMENT,
ACROSS URBAN NEIGHBOURHOODS,
BUT THE PARADIGMATIC BLACK
SETTLEMENT PATTERN IS ONE WHERE
ALL BLACKS LIVE IN ALL BLACK
NEIGHBOURHOODS, THESE
NEIGHBOURHOODS ARE CRAMMED
TOGETHER IN SPACE, IN A TIGHTLY
COMPACTED AREA IN THE MOST
DISADVANTAGED PART OF THE CITY.
THAT IS THE CONDITION OF HYPER
SEGREGATION.
AND YOU SEE THAT AS OF THE YEAR
2000, NOT ANCIENT HISTORY,
RIGHT NOW, HALF OF ALL URBAN
AFRICAN AMERICANS LIVE UNDER
SUCH CONDITIONS OF SEGREGATION
IN PLACES LIKE DETROIT, IN
PLACES LIKE ST. LOUIS, IN
PLACES LIKE PHILADELPHIA, NEW
YORK, CLEVELAND, AND SO ON.
AMONG THOSE WHO ARE NOT HYPER
SEGREGATION, ANOTHER 21 PERCENT ARE
HIGHLY SEGREGATED.
THAT IS, ON A SCALE FROM 0 TO
100, WHERE 0 IS NO SEGREGATION,
AND 100 IS TOTAL SEPARATION OF
THE RACES, THEY HAVE AN INDEX
OF 60 OR GREATER, BUT THEY
DON'T QUITE CONFORM TO THE
EXTREME CONDITIONS OF HYPER
SEGREGATION.
NONETHELESS, AS YOU CAN SEE,
2/3, ALMOST 2/3 OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS LIVE UNDER CONDITIONS
OF HIGH OR HYPER SEGREGATION
NOW, NOT IN THE PAST BUT NOW.
AND, AS YOU CAN SEE, THERE HAS
BEEN LITTLE CHANGE OVER TIME.
THIS GIVES YOU THE TIME TREND
IN SOME OF THE MOST SEGREGATED
CITIES IN THE COUNTRY AND ALL
HYPER SEGREGATED CITIES.
SO AS YOU CAN SEE, FROM 1980 TO
1990, THERE IS A VERY, VERY
MODEST DOWNWARD TREND.

The slate changes to the title "Figure 2. Trends in black-white
residential segregation for hyper segregated metropolitan area 1980-
2000. Source: Iceland ET. Al. 2002." The graph shows a straight line
At around 80 percent.

Douglas says WE ARE NOT, IN ANY MEANINGFUL
WAY, IN THE UNITED STATES
MOVING TOWARD A MORE INTEGRATED
SOCIETY.
WE REMAIN ONE OF THE MOST
RACIALLY SEGREGATED SOCIETIES
ON EARTH.
LET ME COMPARE SOME OF THE MORE
SEGREGATED CITIES IN THE UNITED
STATES TO AN AVERAGE COMPUTED
FOR RACIAL SEGREGATION IN SOUTH
AFRICA IN 1971, AT THE HEIGHT
OF APARTHEID.
SO THE LEFTMOST BAR SHOWS THE
AVERAGE LEVEL OF SEGREGATION IN
SOUTH AFRICA UNDER APARTHEID,
AND WHAT YOU HAVE EXTENDING OUT
TO THE RIGHT, ARE SELECTED U.S.
CITIES, AND THEN THE AVERAGE OF
ALL HYPER SEGREGATED CITIES.
SO YOU SEE THAT ALTHOUGH THEY
DON'T QUITE REACH THE EXTREMES
OF SOUTH AFRICA, THEY ARE
PRETTY DARN CLOSE, AND LEVELS
OF SEGREGATION ARE PERSISTENT,
HIGH AND UNPRECEDENTED WITH THE
EXCEPTION, THE SOLE EXCEPTION
OF THE UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA.
IN MY
LECTURES IN THE UNITED STATES,
I POINT OUT THAT THIS KIND OF
SEGREGATION IS NOT AN
INEVITABLE STATE OF AFFAIRS.
MANY MULTIRACIAL SOCIETIES DO
NOT SHARE THESE LEVELS OF
SEGREGATION.
SO BRAZIL,
FOR EXAMPLE, HAS MANY RACIAL
PROBLEMS AND SERIOUS PROBLEMS
WITH RACIAL INEQUALITIES, BUT
SEGREGATION IS NOT ONE OF THEM.
BLACK, WHITE, BROWN BRAZILIANS
DO NOT LIVE APART FROM ONE
ANOTHER IN THIS STARK FASHION.
AND TO THIS POINT, TO YOUR
CREDIT, HERE IN CANADA THE
LEVELS OF SEGREGATION,
ALTHOUGH, AS WE'LL SEE, ARE
MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION,
ARE A FAR CRY FROM WHAT WE
OBSERVE IN THE UNITED STATES.
IF YOU HAVE THE CONDITIONS THAT
I'VE DESCRIBED SO FAR.
IF YOU HAVE RISING INEQUALITY
WITH RESPECT TO INCOME AND
WEALTH, RISING CLASS
SEGREGATION, IN THE CONTEXT OF
OVERALL HIGH LEVELS OR EXTREME
LEVELS OF RACIAL SEGREGATION,
THEN AS I AND OTHERS HAVE
DEMONSTRATED, ONLY ONE OUTCOME
IS POSSIBLE?
THE ONLY OUTCOME THAT IS
POSSIBLE FROM THAT
CONFIGURATION OF MACRO SOCIAL
FACTORS, IS GROWING
CONCENTRATION OF POVERTY WITHIN
BLACK NEIGHBOURHOODS.
BLACKS WILL INCREASINGLY LIVE
UNDER CONDITIONS NOT ONLY OF
RACIAL ISOLATION, BUT OF
INCREASING CLASS ISOLATION.

The slate changes to the title "Concentration of Urban Black
Poverty." Four bar graphs for 1970, 1980, 1990, and 2000 appear and
they read by percentage, 16, 21, 33, and 28.

Douglas says SO YOU CAN SEE THIS VERY
CLEARLY IN THESE STATISTICS
WHICH SHOW THE CONCENTRATION OF
URBAN BLACK POVERTY, THE DEGREE
TO WCH BLACK POOR PEOPLE LIVE
IN NEIGHBOURHOODS DOMINATED BY
OTHER BLACK POOR PEOPLE.
SO THE NUMBER ON THE AXIS IS
ACTUALLY THE PERCENTAGE POOR IN
THE NEIGHBOURHOOD OF THE
AVERAGE POOR BLACK PERSON.
SO IF YOU WALK OUT YOUR DOOR,
HOW MANY OTHER POOR FAMILIES DO
YOU SEE IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD
AROUND YOU.
AND AS YOU CAN SEE, IT
BASICALLY DOUBLED FROM 1970 TO
1990, GOING FROM 16 PERCENT TO 21 PERCENT, TO
33 PERCENT, AND THEN DURING THE
ECONOMIC BOOM OF THE 1990s
MODERATED, AND, I SUSPECT BY
2010, WE'LL SEE IT BACK UP AT
LEAST TO 1990 LEVELS AND
POSSIBLY BEYOND.
AS I THINK THE EVENTS IN NEW
ORLEANS DEMONSTRATED, GEORGE
BUSH HAS NOT PUT POOR URBAN
BLACK AMERICA HIGH ON HIS LIST
OF PRIORITIES.
THIS SEGREGATION IN THE UNITED
STATES DOES NOT OCCUR ON THE
BASIS OF INCOME.
IT HAS RELATIVELY LITTLE TO DO
WITH SOCIAL CLASS.
SOCIAL CLASS SEGREGATION IS A
REALITY, SOCIAL CLASS
SEGREGATION IS INCREASING, BUT
RACIAL SEGREGATION IS SOMETHING
APART AND DIFFERENT AND UTTERLY
UNIQUE.

The caption changes from "Figure 3. Segregation of African American
by income in 1990 and 2000(Source: Iceland, Sharpe, and Steinmate
2004." The graph shows a straight line that decrease slightly in the
2nd quarter. The perpendicular is the segregation index and the
Parallel is income category from 1st quartile, 2nd quartile 3rd
Quartile and 4th quartile.

Douglas says THIS SHOWS IN THE YEAR 2000,
AND THE YEAR 1990, ON THE
SEGREGATION OF AFRICAN
AMERICANS FROM WHITES BY INCOME
LEVEL.
SO AS YOU CAN SEE AS YOU MOVE
FROM THE LOWEST QUARTILE TO THE
HIGHEST QUARTILE OF THE INCOME
DISTRIBUTION, THE LEVEL OF
SEGREGATION HARDLY CHANGES AND
STAYS UNIVERSALLY ABOVE THE
KIND OF THRESHOLD FOR HIGH
SEGREGATION, WHICH IS AN INDEX
VALUE OF 60.
SO SEGREGATION BETWEEN BLACKS
AND WHITES IN AMERICA, CANNOT
JUST BE DISMISSED AS A MATTER
OF SOCIAL CLASS.
OH, THEY'RE-- BLACKS ARE POORER
ON AVERAGE THAN WHITES, AND
THEREFORE THEY LIVE IN
DIFFERENT NEIGHBOURHOODS SO
REALLY IT'S JUST A CLASS
PROBLEM.
IT IS NOT A CLASS PROBLEM, IT
IS VERY CLEARLY AND
FUNDAMENTALLY A RACE PROBLEM.
[Clears Throat]

The slate changes to a graph shows to "Percentage of whites who
agreed that, "White people have a right to keep blacks out of their
Neighborhoods." The graph shows a perpendicular of percentage from
0-70 and then three bars that show the years 1963, 1972, 1996, with
The percentage of 60, 41, 11, respectively.


Douglas says AND THE PERSISTENCE OF
SEGREGATION IN THE UNITED
STATES, I THINK HAS A LOT TO DO
WITH THE CONTINUATION OF
STRONG ANTI-BLACK ATTITUDES ON
THE PART OF THE WHITE
POPULATION.
NOW ON THE ONE HAND, IT WOULD
SEEM LIKE WE'RE GETTING TO BE A
MUCH MORE ENLIGHTENED AND
LIBERAL SOCIETY.
THIS IS THE PERCENTAGE OF
WHITES WHO AGREED THAT WHITE
PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KEEP
BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
IN 1963, AS YOU CAN SEE, THIS
WAS THE PREVAILING OPINION
AMONG WHITES, THAT THEY
BELIEVED IN SEGREGATION ON
PRINCIPAL.
BY 1996, IT WAS A MINORITY
OPINION.
WHITES HAD ABANDONED THE
PRINCIPLE NOTION OF
SEGREGATION, AND BELIEVE THAT
PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE
WHEREVER THEY WANT TO BECAUSE
OF-- APART FROM RACE, THAT RACE
SHOULDN'T FACTOR INTO YOUR
FREEDOM TO MOVE AND LIVE AND
INTERACT WHEREVER YOU WOULD
LIKE TO IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.
BUT THAT'S PRINCIPLE.
AT THE SAME TIME, WHITES
EXPRESS A GREAT DEAL OF
DISCOMFORT AT THE PROSPECT OF
SHARING NEIGHBOURHOOD SPACE
WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS.

The slate changes to the title "White Comfort with Black Neighbors
in Detroit 1964." The perpendicular reads "Percentage‚" and the
Parallel reads ‚"Percentage of Blacks in Neighborhoods." There are
two sets of four bar graphs in light blue signifying that they would
feel comfortable and darker blue are willing to move in.

Douglas says SO THIS IS THE PERCENTAGE OF
WHITES WHO SAY THEY FEEL
COMFORTABLE HAVING BLACK
NEIGHBOURHOODS, BLACKS LIVING
IN THEIR NEIGHBOURHOODS, AND
THE PERCENTAGE WHO SAY THAT
THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO MOVE
IN.
WHEN IT'S LESS THAN 7 PERCENT BLACK,
LARGE MAJORITIES SAID THEY'D
FEEL COMFORTABLE AND BE WILLING
TO MOVE IN, BUT AS YOU GOT TO
20 PERCENT, IT FALLS, 33 PERCENT, IT FALLS,
AND BY 50-50, IT'S REALLY A
SMALL MINORITY THAT WOULD FEEL
COMFORTABLE AT THAT LEVEL OF
RACIAL MIXING WITHIN THEIR
NEIGHBOURHOODS.
SO EVEN THOUGH WHITE AMERICANS
ESPOUSE PRINCIPLES OF RACIAL
EQUALITY AT THIS JUNCTURE IN
OUR NATIONAL HISTORY, THEY'RE
STILL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE
PROSPECT OF ACTUALLY DEALING
WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS, SHARING
LIVING SPACE WITH THEM,
INTERACTING WITH THEM ON A
DAILY BASIS.
THIS IS FROM THE U.S. GENERAL
SOCIAL SURVEY.

The slate changes to another graph that reads "Figure 5 Ideal
neighborhood desired by Whites and Blacks in 2000. Source: Charles
2003. ‚" The two sets of three bar graphs shows the percentages of how
Whites view a neighborhood vs. Blacks view a neighborhood.

Douglas says IN THE YEAR 2000, THIS IS NOT,
AGAIN, OLD STUFF, AND THIS IS
WHEN RESPONDENTS WERE ASKED TO
SAY, WELL, JUST GIVE US ROUGH
PERCENTAGES, WHAT'S YOUR IDEAL
RACIAL COMPOSITION, WHAT
NEIGHBOURHOOD WOULD YOU MOST
LIKE TO LIVE IN?
WELL FOR WHITES, THE
NEIGHBOURHOOD THEY WOULD MOST
LIKE TO LIVE IN, WAS ON AVERAGE
57 PERCENT WHITE, 17 PERCENT BLACK, 13 PERCENT
LATINO AND ABOUT 13 PERCENT ASIAN.
FOR BLACKS, SEE, THEY DON'T
EVEN WANT TO LIVE IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT'S MAJORITY
BLACK, AND LIKE TO SHARE
SUBSTANTIAL LIVING SPACE WITH
OTHER ORIGIN GROUPS.

The slate changes to "Figure 6. Preference for all in-group and no-
Out-group neighborhoods in 2000. Source: Charles 2003." The graph
shows two bar graphs that show Whites vs. Blacks and the
Perpendicular is the percentage.

Douglas says I THINK A MORE TELLING
INDICATOR IS THE PERCENTAGE WHO
PREFER -- THE WHITE BAR IS
LIVING IN ALL WHITE
NEIGHBOURHOODS, OR FOR BLACKS,
ALL BLACK NEIGHBOURHOODS, AND
THE GREY BAR IS FOR THE
PERCENTAGE WHO PREFER LIVING IN
A NEIGHBOURHOOD WITHOUT ANY
BLACKS OR WITHOUT ANY WHITES.
SO FOR WHITES, 1/5 OF AMERICANS
IN THE YEAR 2000, THEIR
PREFERRED NEIGHBOURHOOD WOULD
CONTAINO AFRICAN AMERICANS
WHATSOEVER.
NO, 1/5 WOULD BE ALL WHITE
AMERICAN, ALL WHITE EUROPEAN.
1/4, 25 PERCENT
WOULD PREFER TO LIVE IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT CONTAINED NO
AFRICAN AMERICANS.
AND LEST YOU THINK THAT THIS IS
SYMMETRICAL, AND BLACKS FEEL
THE SAME WAY, SEE, ONLY 6.5 PERCENT
WOULD PREFER TO LIVE IN AN ALL
BLACK NEIGHBOURHOOD, AND ONLY
95 WOULD PREFER TO LIVE IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT CONTAINED NO
OTHER GROUPS.
THAT WOULD
CONTAIN NO WHITES, RATHER.
AND WHERE DO THESE ANTIPATHIES
COME FROM?
LARGELY FROM STEREOTYPING.

The next slate shows a title of "Figure 7. Explaining White
Avoidance of Black Neighbors Source: Charles 2003.‚" The graph shows
three bar graphs of white perceptions with the titles: "Perceived
Class difference‚" the next "Racial Stereotyping‚" and "In-group
Attachment."

Douglas says MY COLLEAGUE, CAMILLE CHARLES
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF
PENNSYLVANIA, DID THIS ANALYSIS
FROM WHICH I BORROW, THAT
SHOWS, USING SURVEY DATA, WHAT
PREDICTS THIS AVERSION TO
SHARING RESIDENTIAL SPACE WITH
AFRICAN AMERICANS.
AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THE
PERCEPTION THAT BLACKS ARE POOR
AND SHARE WHATEVER
CHARACTERISTICS THAT POOR
PEOP HAVE, IS NOT DRIVING IT,
AND THEIR ATTACHMENT TO WHITES,
PER SE, WANTING TO BE AMONG
OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THEMSELVES,
IS NOT DRIVING IT.
WHAT IT IS, IS THEIR ADHERENCE
TO RACIAL STEREOTYPES, SEEING
BLACKS AS LESS INTELLIGENT,
LAZIER, MORE PRONE TO VIOLENCE,
NOT INTERESTED IN FAMILY
VALUES, AND BASICALLY KIND OF
UNFAIR AND SNEAKY.
THOSE STEREOTYPES PREDICT
PEOPLE'S UNWILLINGNESS TO LIVE
IN BLACK NEIGHBOURHOODS.
SO IT'S ROOTED IN LONGSTANDING
RACIAL PREJUDICES THAT GO BACK
TO THE FORMATION OF RACE IN THE
UNITED STATES AS A SLAVE
HOLDING ARISTOCRACY.
THIS PREJUDICE GETS TRANSLATED
INTO DISCRIMINATION.

The slate changes to the title "Figure 8. Percentage Gaining Access
to Rental Units in the Philadelphia rental housing market 2000-2001
(Source: Fischer and Massey 2004). The graph shows for female and
males separate lines but both with downward slopes from 75 percent
to 10 percent depending on who was speaking. The graph reads from
right to let White Middle Class English, Black Accented English and
Black English Vernacular.

Douglas says THIS IS FROM A STUDY THAT I DID
IN PHILADELPHIA WITH SEVERAL OF
MY UNDERGRADUATE CLASSES.
I POSTED A NOTICE FOR A CLASS I
WANTED TO OFFER ON THE
METHODOLOGY OF MEASURING
DISCRIMINATION, AND IF YOU POST
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU GET A
MULTI-RACIAL CLASS, AND I HAD
WHITE STUDENTS AND BLACK
STUDENTS, AND MANY OF THE BLACK
STUDENTS SPOKE A STYLE OF
ENGLISH, WHICH LINGUISTS CALL
BLACK ENGLISH VERNACULAR, WHICH
IS VERY DISTINCTIVE AND READILY
IDENTIFIABLE.
AND WHAT WE DID WAS DIVIDE THE
CLASS INTO THREE GROUPS, WHITE,
MIDDLE CLASS ENGLISH, BLACK
ACCENTED ENGLISH, WHICH IS
GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT, BUT
PRONOUNCED WITH A SOUTHERN
INFLECTION, AND BLACK ENGLISH
VERNACULAR, WHICH IS
GRAMMATICALLY DISTINCT FROM
WHITE AMERICAN ENGLISH.
AND THEN WE RANDOMLY SELECTED
REAL ESTATE ADS FROM THE
PHILADELPHIA ENQUIRER, AND THEN
WE SIMPLY HAD PEOPLE CALL UP
AND RUN THROUGH A SCRIPT, WHERE
THEY SAY, "HI, MY NAME IS SO
AND SO, I'M INTERESTED IN THE
APARTMENT YOU ADVERTISED IN THE
PHILADELPHIA ENQUIRER.
IS THAT STILL AVAILABLE?
AND THEN, IF YES, THEY'D START
ASKING A SERIES OF QUESTIONS.
AND BASICALLY WHAT YOU HAVE
HERE, IS THE PERCENTAGE OF
PEOPLE WHO GAINED ACCESS TO A
RENTAL UNIT, THAT IS, THEY WERE
TOLD THAT THE UNIT WAS STILL
AVAILABLE, AND THEY WERE
OFFERED A CHANCE TO SEE IT.
AND AS YOU CAN SEE, FOR WHITE
MIDDLE CLASS ENGLISH, MALES AND
FEMALES, IT'S VERY HIGH, IT
FALLS DOWN PROGRESSIVELY AS THE
BLACKNESS OF THE CALLER BECOMES
MORE READILY APPARENT.
AND THIS IS JUST OVER THE
PHONE, SO THIS MEANS YOU CAN'T
EVEN GET THROUGH THE DOOR, YOU
CAN'T EVEN MAKE IT THROUGH THE
ENTRY GATEWAY.
WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT
ACTUALLY PURCHASING A PLACE OR
RENTING A PLACE, THAT'S JUST
GETTING INFORMATION ABOUT THE
PLACE.
AND WE DISCOVERED THAT
TECHNOLOGY MADE DISCRIMINATION
EASIER, MORE EFFICIENT AND MORE
PAINLESS ON THE PART OF THE
DISCRIMINATOR, BECAUSE ABOUT
40 PERCENT OF THE CALLS WE MADE WERE
INITIALLY ANSWERED BY VOICE
MAIL, AND WE DISCOVERED THAT
ANY TIME A MESSAGE WAS LEFT IN
A BLACK-- IDENTIFIABLY BLACK
LINGUISTIC STYLE THAT PHONE
CALL WAS VERY UNLIKELY TO EVER
BE RETURNED, DESPITE OF
REPEATED ATTEMPTS.
SO, IN SUMMARY, IN THE UNITED
STATES, DISCRIMINATION IS--
RACIAL SEGREGATION PERSISTS IN
REMARKABLY HIGH LEVELS, IN THE
CONTEXT OF RISING INCOME
INEQUALITY AND GROWING CLASS
SEGREGATION.
THIS HAS PRODUCED DRAMATIC
INCREASES IN THE CONCENTRATION
OF POVERTY.
SEGREGATION IS NOT ATTRIBUTABLE
TO CLASS, IT IS VERY CLEARLY
ROOTED IN ONGOING PREJUDICE
AGAINST AFRICAN AMERICANS,
WHICH IS TRANSLATED INTO ACTIVE
DISCRIMINATION IN AMERICAN
HOUSING MARKETS.
WHAT'S THE SITUATION THEN, IN
CANADA.

The slate changes to the title "Black population of Toronto." The
bar graph shows graphs for the years 1981, 1986, 1991, 1996, and
2001 all slightly increasing from 50,000 in 1981 to 2001 at 200,000.

Douglas says WHAT WE HAVE HERE ARE SOME DATA
THAT I PULLED TOGETHER IN THE
LAST COUPLE OF DAYS FROM
SCATTERED REPORTS AND STUDIES
BY SOME PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM ON
CONDITIONS IN CANADA.
AS YOU CAN SEE, THE BLACK
POPULATION OF CANADA, OF
TORONTO, HAS DRAMATICALLY
INCREASED, IN THE TORONTO
METROPOLITAN AREA, AND
ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT
CENSUS IN 2001, YOU HAVE A
LITTLE OVER 200,000 BLACK
CITIZENS, OR RESIDENTS, ABOUT
8 PERCENT OF TORONTO IS AFRICAN
AMERICAN.
NOT AFRICAN AMERICAN, BLACK,
MOSTLY OF CARIBBEAN BACKGROUND
AND AFRICAN BACKGROUND.
PARDON ME.
SO THE RACIAL MINORITIES ARE
GROWING.I FOCUS ON
BLACKS BECAUSE THEY TEND TO BE
THE LEADING EDGE OF THESE SORTS
OF ISSUES, AND THE BELLWETHER
INDICATOR OF POTENTIAL RACIAL
PROBLEMS.
BUT, AS YOU ALL KNOW, ANYBODY
WALKING AROUND THE STREETS OF
TORONTO KNOWS THAT THE NUMBER
AND SHARE OF VISIBLE MINORITIES
IN GENERAL HAS DRAMATICALLY
INCREASED OVER THE PAST SEVERAL
DECADES.
THESE SHOW
INDICATORS OF BLACK SEGREGATION
IN TORONTO THAT I PULLED FROM A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT STUDIES
AND TRIED TO PUT IN A TIME
SERIES.

The slate changes to "Black Segregation in Toronto." The graph reads
from 1981, 1996, 1991, 1996 2001. The blue bars for reach year grows
from 5 percent in 1981 to 16 percent in 2001. Then the red bar shows
the red bar for each year grows from 20 percent in 1981 to 50
percent in 2001.

Douglas says SO 1981 TO 1996, WE HAVE DBW IS
THE STANDARD BLACK WHITE
SEGREGATION INDEX, FROM TO
100, WHERE 0 IS NO SEGREGATION,
100 IS TOTAL SEGREGATION, AND
YOU'LL NOTICE THAT 60, AS I
SAID, IS GENERALLY KIND OF THE
TRIP WIRE, AND INDICATES
POTENTIAL PROBLEMS, YOU'RE IN A
HIGH LEVEL OF SEGREGATION.
AND BY 1996, THE INDEX OF BLACK
SEGREGATION IN TORONTO, FOR THE
FIRST TIME IN HISTORY HERE, HAD
EXCEEDED 60.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE INDEX IS
IN 2001.
AS FAR AS I COULD TELL, NO
STATISTIC HAS YET BEEN
PUBLISHED.
I'M NOT SURE WHETHER STATISTICS
CANADA HAS PRODUCED THE DATA
THAT'S NEEDED FOR IT OR NOT,
BUT I COULDN'T FIND ANY
REFERENCE.
ANOTHER INDEZ IS THE
DEGREE OF BLACK ISOLATION, THE
DEGREE TO WHICH BLACKS LIVE IN
NEIGHBOURHOODS WITH OTHER
BLACKS.
SO THAT THIS IS BASICALLY THE
PROPORTION OF BLACK IN THE
NEIGHBOURHOOD OF THE AVERAGE
BLACK PERSON IN TORONTO, AND AS
YOU CAN SEE, THAT HAS STEADILY
RISEN, AND I DID FIND SOME
STATISTICS FOR 2001, WHERE THE
AVERAGE BLACK PERSON IN TORONTO
LIVES IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD WHICH
IS ABOUT 15 PERCENT OR 16 PERCENT BLACK.
NOW THAT IS NOT TERRIBLY HIGH,
AND A FAR CRY FROM WHAT WE
WOULD OBSERVE IN CHICAGO, OR
DETROIT, OR CLEVELAND WHERE THE
AVERAGE BLACK PERSON LIVES IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT IS 80 PERCENT OR
90 PERCENT BLACK.
HOWER, THERE IS MORE THAN
MEETS THE EYE.
THE BLUE BARS, OR WHAT I JUST
SHOWED YOU, THE PERCENT, KIND
OF RACIALISED SELECTION WHEN
YOU ONLY CONSIDER OTHER BLACKS
IN THE NEIGHBOURHOOD.
WHEN YOU CONSIDER ALL VISIBLE
MINORITIES, THE P STAR EVM IS TH
DEGREE OF ISOLATION WITH OTHER
VISIBLE MINORITIES, YOU FIND
THAT THE AVERAGE BLACK RESIDENT
OF TORONTO IN 2001, LIVED IN A
NEIGHBOURHOOD WHERE 50 PERCENT OF THE
POPULATION WAS VISIBLE
MINORITY, AND THAT IS GETTING
TO BE A SIGNIFICANT LEVEL OF
RACIAL ISOLATION.
AT THE SAME TIME, FROM WHAT I
COULD PIECE TOGETHER, BLACK
POVERTY RATES ARE HIGH AND HAVE
BEEN RISING, AND ACCORDING TO
ONE REPORT, AND I'M NOT SURE
HOW ACCURATE THESE THINGS ARE,
BECAUSE I PULLED THEM OUT OF
UNITED WAY REPORTS AND THINGS,
THAT CLAIM THAT THE LEVEL OF
BLACK POVERTY WAS UP TO 45 PERCENT.
THIS INDICATOR IS OF CLASS
SEGREGATION IN 1981 AND 2000.
THIS IS THE DISSIMILARITY
BETWEEN POOR AND NON-POOR, AND
THE BLACK ONE IS POOR AND
AFFLUENT.

The slate changes to the title "Class Segregation in Toronto.‚" And
the bar graphs show the year 1981 and 2001 and a significant
increase from each year.

Douglas says SO AS YOU CASEE, THERE HASN'T
BEEN MUCH CHANGE, BUT THESE
INCREASES IN POVERTY AND THE
INCREASE IN BLACK SEGREGATION
HAS OCCURRED IN A CONTEXT WHERE
THERE IS SIGNIFICANT LEVELS OF
CLASS SEGREGATION
METROPOLITAN TORONTO.
RICH PEOPLE AND POOR PEOPLE DO
TEND TO LIVE IN DIFFERENT PARTS
OF THE METROPOLITAN
ENVIRONMENT, AND THESE LEVELS
ARE, IN FACT, ON A PAR WITH
WHAT YOU OBSERVE IN THE UNITED
STATES.

The slate changes to the title "Geography of Black Poverty in
Toronto in 1981‚" Shows two bar graphs, one for poor blacks and no-
poor people. The Black poor- non-poor is at 47 percent and in the
poor parts of the neighborhood are 40 percent.

Douglas says THE GEOGRAPHY OF BLACK POVERTY

- WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BLACK
POPULATION BY ITSELF, YOU FIND
THAT THERE IS QUITE A HIGH
DEGREE OF CLASS SEGREGATION, SO
THIS IS THE DEGREE OF
SEGREGATION BETWEEN POOR BLACKS
AND NON-POOR PEOPLE, AND YOU
CAN SEE THAT POOR BLACKS ARE
LIVING IN DIFFERENT PLACES THAN
THE NON-POOR, THE NEIGHBOURHOOD
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THEY LIVE
ARE INCREASINGLY POOR, AND AT
THE RIGHT IS AN INDICATOR OF
RESIDENTS IN SEVERE POVERTY,
LIVING IN A NEIGHBOURHOOD THAT
IS 40 PERCENT POOR.
AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THE
PERCENTAGE OF BLACK CANADIANS
LIVING IN A TRACT IN TORONTO
THAT IS EXTREMELY POOR, 40 PERCENT.
IN 1991, THIS IS OLD DATA, WAS
6 PERCENT, SO FROM WHAT I CAN GLEAN
FROM THE DATA IN CANADA IS THAT
YOU'RE A LONG WAY FROM THE
SITUATION IN THE UNITED STATES,
THE LEVELS OF BLACK POVERTY
CONCENTRATIONS HERE DO NOT COME
CLOSE TO RIVALLING THOSE OF
YOUR NEIGHBOUR TO THE SOUTH.
THE DEGREE OF RACIAL
SEGREGATION IS STILL
SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER, HOWEVER,
YOU ARE MOVING IN THE WRONG
DIRECTION.
FROM WHAT I COULD PIECE
TOGETHER FROM THE LITERATURE,
LEVELS OF BLACK SEGREGATION ARE
RISING, THEY ARE BECOMING MORE
ISOLATED IN NEIGHBOURHOODS
DOMINATED BY OTHER BLACK
PEOPLE, AND CERTAINLY ISOLATED
IN NEIGHBOURHOODS WITH OTHER
VISIBLE MINORITIES IN CANADA.
AT THE SAME TIME, CANADIAN
INCOME INEQUALITY HAS BEEN
INCREASING, NOT QUITE AS MUCH
AS IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT
INCREASING NONETHELESS, AND ALL
THESE TRENDS HAVE OCCURRED IN
THE CONTEXT OF ONGOING, FAIRLY
HIGH LEVELS OF CLASS
SEGREGATION WITHIN METROPOLITAN
TORONTO. SO IF YOU
PUT ALL THESE THINGS TOGETHER,
AND YOU NOTICE, I DON'T HAVE
INDICATORS OF THE CONCENTRATION
OF POVERTY UP HERE, BECAUSE AS
FAR AS I KNOW, THEY HAVE NOT
BEEN CALCULATED.

Douglas says BUT IF YOU
PUT ALL THESE TRENDS TOGETHER,
WHAT YOU WOULD PREDICT WOULD BE
A STEADY INCREASE IN THE
GEOGRAPHIC CONCENTRATION OF
POVERTY WITHIN NEIGHBOURHOODS
OF METROPOLITAN TORONTO.
THE DEGREE TO WHICH THIS IS IN
FACT OCCURRING IS AN EMPIRICAL
QUESTION, AND REQUIRES SOMEBODY
TO CALCULATE THE DATA.
FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN ABLE TO
PIECE TOGETHER, THE DATA ARE
NOT ROUTINELY RELEASED BY
STATISTICS CANADA.
AND THEREFORE THESE STATISTICS
HAVE NOT BEEN CALCULATED.
SO WHERE DOES CANADA STAND?
WHERE DOES TORONTO IN
PARTICULAR STAND?
I WOULD SAY, AT A CRITICAL
JUNCTURE.
A TRIPWIRE, I BELIEVE HAS BEEN
CROSSED.
BLACK SEGREGATION SEEMS TO HAVE
CROSSED THE 60 INDEX, THRESHOLD
INTO WHAT IS NORMALLY
CONSIDERED BY SOCIAL SCIENTISTS
TO BE A HIGH LEVEL OF
SEGREGATION.
NOW THIS MAY OR NOT BE
PROBLEMATIC, IT MAY RESULT FROM
PURELY VOLUNTARY FORCES.
IT MAY BE THE RESULT OF
PREFERENCES ON THE PART OF
BLACK CANADIANS, IT MAY BE THE
PARTICIPATION OF MIGRANT
NETWORKS THAT DRAW BLACK
IMMIGRANTS INTO PARTICULAR
NEIGHBOURHOODS AND THEY DON'T
SETTLE RANDOMLY.
HOWEVER, ONCE YOU GET ABOVE 60,
YOU NEED TO START ASKING
YOURSELF THE QUESTION.
ARE THERE DISCRIMINATORY
PROCESSES OPERATING IN
TORONTO'S HOUSING MARKETS, AND
THE ONLY WAY TO ANSWER THESE
QUESTIONS EMPIRICALLY IS
THROUGH AUDIT STUDIES WHERE YOU
ACTUALLY SEND OUT BLACK AND
WHITE CANADIANS TO INTERACT IN
AND OBSERVE SYSTEMATIC
DIFFERENCES IN TREATMENT,
TABULATE THEM AND STUDY THEM.
FROM MY CONVERSATIONS WITH MY
FORMER STUDENT, ERIC FONG HERE
ON THE FACULTY, LIMITED WORK IN
AUDITED METHODOLOGIES HAS BEEN
DONE HERE, BUT THEY HAVE SHOWN
SYSTEMATIC DIFFERENCES IN
TREATMENT TO THE EXTENT THAT
THEY HAVE BEEN DONE.
SO WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE
TORONTO?
I THINK PEOPLE IN TORONTO WHO
ARE INTERESTED IN AVOIDING THE
SORTS OF SCENARIOS THAT HAVE
PLAYED OUT TO SUCH DESTRUCTIVE
ENDS IN THE UNITED STATES, NEED
TO START ASKING THEMSELVES SOME
SERIOUS QUESTIONS, AND THEY
NEED TO START COLLECTING THE
DATA TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.
IS CANADA REALLY A RACIALLY
TOLERANT SOCIETY?
DO BLACK CANADIANS RECEIVE
DISCRIMINATORY TREATMENT IN
RENTAL MARKETS AND HOUSING
MARKETS AND LENDING MARKET?
WHAT ARE THE ATTITUDES OF
CANADIANS TOWARD THE PROSPECT
OF SHARING NEIGHBOURHOODS,
SHARING RESIDENTIAL SPACE WITH
PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT RACIAL AND
ETHNIC ORIGINS.
THESE ARE EMPIRICAL QUESTIONS
AND IF THEY ANSWER IN EACH CASE
IS, THERE'S NO DISCRIMINATION,
THERE'S VERY LITTLE PREJUDICE,
THEN OKAY, WE DON'T NEED TO
WORRY, BUT IF YOU FIND, INSTEAD
THAT THERE IS GROWING
PREJUDICE, IS DISCRIMINATION IN
HOUSING MARKETS, THEN I THINK
NOW IS THE TIME THAT CANADA
WOULD LIKE -- THAT CANADA
SHOULD TAKE FORCEFUL ACTION TO
NIP THESE PROBLEMS IN THE BUD
BEFORE YOU END UP IN THE CYCLE
OF POVERTY AND VIOLENCE THAT
HAS BECOME SO ENDEMIC TO
AMERICAN CITIES.
THANK YOU.

[Applause]

Watch: Douglas Massey on the American record on race and poverty