Transcript: OISE Panel - Lecture and Panel on "Are The Right Teachers En | Oct 01, 2005

Tina says HELLO EVERYBODY.
MY NAME IS TINA SREBOTNJAK AND
WELCOME TO THIS EDITION.

The caption reads "Teacher education for the schools we need. Are the right
teachers entering the profession? Are the wrong teachers leaving?"

Tina says WE ARE GOING TO BE
TALKING TODAY ABOUT ONE OF THE
MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE
CAN DO.
WE'RE HOPING FOR A DISCUSSION,
PERHAPS AT TIMES A DEBATE ABOUT
WHAT CAN BE DONE TO ATTRACT AND
KEEP THE VERY BEST TEACHERS IN
OUR SCHOOLS.
THIS IS A CO-
PRODUCTION BETWEEN "THE ONTARIO
INSTITUTE FOR STUDIES IN
EDUCATION" AND A TVO ONTARIO
SHOW, "BIG IDEAS."
NOW BEFORE I INTRODUCE OUR
PANEL, I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A
LOOK AT A SHORT PIECE OF TAPE.
HERE ARE SOME NOVICE TEACHERS
TALKING ABOUT THE HIGHS AND
LOWS OF THEIR CHOSEN
PROFESSION.

A novice clip shows teacher speaking about education.

A woman appears in her thirties with black with hair pulled back in a ponytail
and with a long sleeved cream shirt.

Woman 1 says I DECIDED TO BECOME A
TEACHER BECAUSE I LOVE WORKING
WITH CHILDREN.
I LOVE SEEING THEM GROW,
LEARN...
ADVENTURE, THE ADVENTURE IN THEIR
EYES FROM LEARNING AND EXPLORING

A woman appears with short blonde hair in a pixie cut and a white shirt beneath
a blue sweater.

Woman 2 says I THINK THE REASON WHY I
WANTED TO BECOME A TEACHER
FIRST OF ALL IS BECAUSE I LOVE
CHILDREN AND I REALLY BELIEVED
THAT WITH THE EXPERIENCE THAT I
HAD THAT I HAD SOMETHING TO
OFFER CHILDREN.

A woman appears in her thirties with glasses and wearing a stripped grey and
white shirt beneath a grey sweater. She has brown hair pulled back behind her
ears.

Woman 3 says MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WAS IN
FRONT OF A GROUP OF GRADE NINE
STUDENTS.
IT HAD BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I
TAUGHT OR HAD BEEN AROUND EVEN
ANYONE WHO WAS 13 AND 14 YEARS
OLD AND SO JUST GETTING
REACQUAINTED WITH THE CULTURE
OF 13 AND 14 YEAR OLDS, ON MY
FIRST DAY, ON TOP OF NERVES,
WAS EXCITING AND.SCARY
AND.EXHILARATING.

The man appears he is in his thirties; he is balding with a brown beard and
moustache. He wears a green shirt and brown tie.

Man 1 says MY FIRST YEAR OF TEACHING
HAS BEEN TREMENDOUSLY REWARDING
AND TREMENDOUSLY STRESSFUL AS
WELL.

Woman 2 says THERE ARE SIMPLE WAYS TO
TEACH AND THERE ARE HARDER WAYS
TO TEACH.
THE WAY THAT I BELIEVE IS
RIGHT, THE WAY THAT I WAS
TAUGHT TO TEACH IS THE HARDER
WAY TO TEACH.

Woman 3 says I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TRIED
THINGS THAT DIDN'T WORK AT ALL
IN CLASSES AND COMPLETELY
FLOPPED.
I THINK EVERYONE HAS.
FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THOSE ARE
THE BEST LEARNING EXPERIENCES
FOR ME.

A woman appears in her thirties wearing a pink scarf and she has long brown hair and wears a white shirt.

Woman 4 I THINK A GOOD TEACHER IS
SOMEONE WHO CAN DELIVER THE
INFORMATION TO HER STUDENTS OR
HIS STUDENTS IN A WAY THAT CAN
MEET ALL THE DIFFERENT LEARNING
STYLES.
SOMEBODY WHO CAN BE A GOOD
FRIEND, WHO CAN BE A GREAT ROLE
MODEL, SOMEBODY THE STUDENTS
CAN LEARN FROM.

Man 1 THE BEST PART OF TEACHING IS
INTERACTING WITH THE STUDENTS
AND WHAT THEY BRING TO MY LIFE
AND HOW THEY ENRICH MY LIFE.

Woman 3 WHEN I PLAN A LESSON AND IT
GOES WELL AND I GET GOOD
FEEDBACK ON IT AND THE STUDENTS
SEEM TO ENJOY IT AND THEY'RE
ENGAGED AND I GET A GOOD
RESPONSE FROM MY ASSOCIATE IN
TERMS OF WHAT WENT WELL, THAT'S
GREAT, BUT...I MEAN IT'S REALLY
GREAT, BUT IT'S EVEN BETTER FOR
ME IN TERMS OF LEARNING HOW TO
BE A BETTER TEACHER WHEN THINGS
GO KIND OF NOT SO WELL OR IF
THEY GO REALLY, REALLY HORRIBLY
THEN I DEFINITELY LEARN FROM
THAT AND TRY TO NOT MAKE THE
SAME MISTAKE AGAIN.

A woman appears in her thirties with shoulder length black hair and fringe. She
wears a pink long sleeved shirt.

Woman 5 IN THIS SCHOOL YOU'RE
DEALING WITH A DIVERSE
BACKGROUND OF KIDS COMING FROM
ALL DIFFERENT SITUATIONS,
DIFFERENT LEARNING STYLES,
PARENTS WITH DIFFERENT
EXPECTATIONS, SO I FIND THAT
CAN BE CHALLENGING AT TIMES.

Woman 1 says THE GOOD STRESS COMES IN THE
MULTITASKING A TEACHER NEEDS TO
DO BECAUSE YOU ARE DELIVERING A
CURRICULUM TO YOUR STUDENTS BUT
YOU ARE DEALING WITH THEIR
SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT WHETHER IT
BE BULLYING, WHETHER IT BE
PUBERTY, WHETHER IT BE ISSUES
AT HOME THAT THE CHILDREN BRING
TO SCHOOL, THOSE THINGS CANNOT
BE SEPARATED FROM THE CLASSROOM
BECAUSE THOSE THINGS WILL
AFFECT YOUR STUDENT IN YOUR
CLASS.

Woman 5 I THINK THE BIGGEST
CHALLENGE FOR ME AS A TEACHER
IS STRUGGLE TO BALANCE BETWEEN
WORK AND THE REST OF MY LIFE OR
NOT TO PUT TOO MUCH INTO IT.
I THINK AS A NEW TEACHER YOU'RE
VERY EAGER TO PUT A LOT OF
HOURS, EAGER TO HAVE THE BEST
LESSONS, THE BEST CLASSROOM BUT
SOMETIMES IT'S NOT...YOU'RE NOT
ABLE TO.

Woman 2 NO ONE UNDERSTANDS TEACHERS
UNTIL YOU ARE STANDING IN A
TEACHER'S SHOES AND ONLY THEN
CAN YOU APPRECIATE EVERYTHING
THAT THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH IN
THE COURSE OF A DAY AND OVER
THE COURSE OF A YEAR.

Woman 3 WHAT DO I GET OUT OF
TEACHING?
THE TEACHING EXPERIENCE THAT I
HAD WHILE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL
SHOWED ME THAT...EXPERIENCING
BEING PART OF SOMEONE ELSE'S
LEARNING IS JUST AN AMAZING, AN
ALMOST INDESCRIBABLE
EXPERIENCE.
TO HAVE THAT MOMENT WHERE
YOU'RE TRYING TO TEACH
SOMETHING TO A STUDENT AND ALL
OF A SUDDEN THAT STUDENT GETS
IT AND REALLY COMPREHENDS AND
UNDERSTANDS WHATEVER IT IS
YOU'RE TRYING TO TEACH
THEM...IT'S JUST...IT'S REALLY
HARD TO DESCRIBE BUT IT'S
REALLY AMAZING.

Woman 5 says IN TEACHER'S COLLEGE YOU
ALWAYS SAY YOU WANT STUDENTS TO
REMEMBER YOU BUT THAT MAY NOT
NECESSARILY HAPPEN.
MY FIRST YEAR WAS AMAZING.
I HAD A STUDENT THAT CAME BACK
TO VISIT ME EVEN THOUGH I MOVED
SCHOOLS.
SHE WAS SORT OF A CHALLENGING
STUDENT THAT I WORKED WITH BUT
HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH.
FOR A STUDENT TO REMEMBER YOU
LIKE THAT AND KNOW THAT YOU'VE
MADE A DIFFERENCE IN THEM, I
THINK THAT WAS SORT OF
ENLIGHTENING AND ALSO
SURPRISING.

Woman 2 says THE WAY THAT I WANTED TO
TEACH WAS NOT A WAY THAT WAS
GOING TO ADAPT WELL INTO THE
SYSTEM THAT I WAS HIRED INTO.
IN THE END I BELIEVED THAT I
WAS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO
TEACH IN THE SYSTEM WITHOUT
COMPROMISING WHAT I BELIEVED
WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO TEACH AND
I WASN'T WILLING TO MAKE THAT
COMPROMISE, SO I DECIDED IN THE
END THAT PERHAPS TEACHING WAS
NOT THE CAREER FOR ME.

Woman 4 says WE HAVE TO BE LIFELONG
LEARNERS BECAUSE AS TEACHERS,
YES WE'RE A TEACHER, YES WE'RE
ROLE MODELS BUT MOST OF ALL WE
ARE STUDENTS OURSELVES IN OUR
OWN CLASSES BECAUSE WE LEARN
FROM ONE ANOTHER.
AND TEACHING IS THE ONE
PROFESSION THAT CREATES ALL
OTHERS.

Tina says THAT'S A NICE PIECE OF
TAPE I THINK ESPECIALLY THAT
LAST LINE, YOU KNOW, "TEACHING
IS THE ONE PROFESSION THAT
CREATES ALL OTHERS."
SO LET'S GET STARTED NOW, I'M
GOING TO INTRODUCE OUR PANEL.
ON MY RIGHT, YOUR LEFT, WE HAVE
ZANANA AKANDE.

Zanana sits on stage and she is in her fifties and has a shaved head. She wears
glasses, stud earrings, a watch, and a red and brown tartan jacket and brown
skirt.

SHE WAS A MINISTER IN THE
BOB RAE GOVERNMENT AND IS
NOW THE CHAIR OF THE
"URBAN ALLIANCE ON RACE
RELATIONS" BUT MORE
IMPORTANTLY, FOR OUR
PURPOSES, SHE WAS A
PRINCIPAL FOR EIGHT YEARS.
SHE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT HOW
TO GET THE BEST FROM
TEACHERS ON YOUR STAFF.

Carol sits on stage next to Zanana. She is in her fifties and has a bob blonde
hair cut with blonde fringe. She wears a white jacket over a black shirt with a
silver broach.

Tina says NEXT TO HER IS CAROL
ROLHEISER, SHE'S THE
ASSOCIATE DEAN OF TEACHER
EDUCATION AT "OISE" AND I
ASKED HER IF SHE WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING ALL
THE CANDIDATES IN AND SHE
ASSURED ME THAT SHE'S NOT
THE ONLY ONE--
[Audience chuckling]

Tina says
BUT SHE IS ONE OF
THE PEOPLE WHO DECIDES
WHO'S GOING TO GET INTO
OISE AND I KNOW YOU HAVE
TONS OF APPLICANTS.
SHE'LL BE TALKING A BIT
ABOUT THAT PROCESS.
NEXT TO CAROL IS LEANNE
MILLER.

Leanne sits on stage next to Carol. She is in her forties and has short brown
hair in a bob with fringe. She wears a white choker necklace, white earrings and
a white jacket over a black shirt.

Tina says LEANNE WAS ONE OF THE BEST
TEACHERS AND SHE TAUGHT FOR
NINE YEARS BUT THEN SHE
QUIT AND NOW IS A
CONSULTANT.
WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT WHY
SHE QUIT.
SHE'S GOING TO GIVE US, WE
HOPE, AN INSIDER'S LOOK
INTO THE SCHOOL STAFFROOM.
AND TO GET US STARTED,
DANIEL FALLON.

Daniel sits next to Leanne. HE is in his sixties and is bald with glasses. He
wears a khaki coloured shirt with a white shirt and paisley tie with the colours
brown, red, yellow, blue, and green.

Tina says DANIEL IS AN EXPERIMENTAL
PSYCHOLOGIST BY TRAINING.
HE HAS BEEN BOTH A
UNIVERSITY TEACHER AND
ADMINISTRATOR AND IS
CURRENTLY CHAIR OF THE
"CARNEGIE CORPORATION'S
EDUCATION DIVISION."
I WAS TELLING HIM BEFORE,
HE'S IN THE ENVIABLE
POSITION OF GIVING OUT
MONEY.
HE TOLD ME HE'S NEVER HAD A
BAD LUNCH SINCE HE STARTED
THIS JOB.
[Audience laughing]

Tina says AND HE'S GOING TO
SPEAK TO US TODAY ABOUT THE
IMPORTANCE OF THE TEACHER.
DAN FALLON.
[Applause]

Dan says THANK YOU VERY
MUCH TINA AND THANK YOU VERY
MUCH ALL OF YOU FOR COMING.
GOOD MORNING TO YOU.

The caption reads "Daniel Fallon. Carnegie Corp., Education Division."

Dan says I THOUGHT THAT I
COULD BE HELPFUL THIS MORNING
SIMPLY BY PROVIDING A KIND OF
BROAD AND GENERAL OVERVIEW.
I WON'T TAKE VERY LONG, MAYBE
10 OR 12 MINUTES AND THEN WE
CAN GO DIRECTLY TO PANEL
REACTION AND MAYBE WE'LL HAVE
SOME TIME, I HOPE, FOR AUDIENCE
PARTICIPATION.
I WANT TO BEGIN THIS GENERAL
REVIEW BY DESCRIBING A MAJOR
SHIFT THAT HAS OCCURRED
RECENTLY AND HOW RESEARCHERS
AND POLICYMAKERS VIEW THE
RELATIVE IMPORTANCE OF HIGH
QUALITY TEACHING.
THE PUNCH LINE HERE IS THAT A
GENERATION AGO, TEACHING WAS
NOT CONSIDERED A VERY IMPORTANT
CONTRIBUTOR TO STUDENT LEARNING
GROWTH AND TODAY IT'S
CONSIDERED THE MAJOR
CONTRIBUTOR.
SECOND, I WANT TO DESCRIBE
BRIEFLY WHAT WE KNOW IN GENERAL
TERMS ABOUT WHO IS ENTERING
TEACHING AND WHO IS LEAVING.
THEN MY COLLEAGUES ON THE PANEL
WILL REACT AND WE CAN ENGAGE IN
A GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THESE
THEMES.
IT'S IMPORTANT HERE AT THE
OUTSET THAT I REMIND MYSELF AND
THIS DISTINGUISHED AUDIENCE
THAT MY INFORMATION IS CENTERED
ON RESEARCH EMANATING FROM THE
UNITED STATES.
I BELIEVE THAT MUCH OF IT CAN
EASILY BE GENERALIZED TO
CANADIAN SOCIETY BUT WE WILL
WANT TO REMIND OURSELVES FROM
TIME TO TIME THAT THERE ARE
BOUND TO BE DIFFERENCES IN
THESE TWO CULTURES.
LET ME BEGIN BY DESCRIBING THE
FIRST IMPORTANT RIGOROUS WORK
UNDERTAKEN IN THE LATTER HALF
OF THE 20TH CENTURY TO TRY TO
HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT WE
COULD DO TO IMPROVE PEOPLE'S
CHANCES FOR SUCCESS IN OUR
DEMOCRACY.
THIS ANALYSIS WAS UNDERTAKEN BY
THE FOREMOST MATHEMATICAL
SOCIOLOGIST OF HIS GENERATION,
JAMES COLEMAN, WHO WAS THEN AT
JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY, AND
WHO LED A TEAM OF EMINENT
RESEARCHERS ON A PROJECT FOR
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO LOOK
AT TEACHERS, SCHOOLS AND
STUDENTS.
COLEMAN AND HIS COLLEAGUES
PUBLISHED THEIR IMPRESSIVE
RESULTS IN TWO LARGE VOLUMES IN
1966.
COLEMAN INSISTED ON MAKING ALL
OF THE MATERIAL PUBLIC,
REVEALING THE MANY
COMPLICATIONS HE UNCOVERED, BUT
HE ALSO RECOGNIZED HIS
RESPONSIBILITY AS A SCIENTIST
TO SYNTHESIZE THIS MATERIAL
INTO STRAIGHTFORWARD LESSONS.
THE OVERWHELMING WEIGHT OF THE
EVIDENCE AT THE DISPOSAL OF THE
RESEARCH TEAM POINTED MOST
CLEARLY AT ONE EASILY
COMPREHENSIBLE CONCLUSION, AND
I'M QUOTING HERE FROM PAGE 297
OF THAT REPORT.
"ONLY A SMALL PART OF STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT IS THE RESULT OF
SCHOOL FACTORS IN CONTRAST TO
FAMILY BACKGROUND DIFFERENCES
BETWEEN COMMUNITIES."COLEMAN'S
INTERPRETATION OF THE DATA HE
ANALYZED WAS THAT PUPIL
ACHIEVEMENT COULD NOT BE
SIGNIFICANTLY ELEVATED UNTIL
CONDITIONS GOVERNED BY RACE,
CLASS AND INCOME INEQUALITY
WERE REARRANGED TO STRENGTHEN
THE POSITIVE ROLE OF HEALTHY
FAMILIES. A BROAD
CONSENSUS RAPIDLY FORMED AROUND
THIS IDEA.
LESS THAN A DECADE LATER IN
1972, ANOTHER DISTINGUISHED
SOCIOLOGIST, CHRISTOPHER JENCKS
CONFIRMED COLEMAN'S BASIC
FINDINGS IN A HIGHLY
INFLUENTIAL BOOK PUBLISHED AT
HARVARD WITH HIS COLLEAGUES.
JENCKS'S SUMMARY WAS SUPREMELY
CONFIDANT IN ITS FORCEFULNESS,
AND I'M QUOTING HERE FROM PAGE
256.
"THE CHARACTER OF A SCHOOL'S
OUTPUT DEPENDS LARGELY ON A
SINGLE INPUT, NAMELY THE
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE ENTERING
CHILDREN."
IN OTHER WORDS
JENCKS WAS SAYING THE SOURCE OF
PUPIL ACHIEVEMENT GROWTH IS TO
BE FOUND OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL
RATHER THAN INSIDE IT.
"CHILDREN ARE SHAPED BY THEIR
GENETIC AND SOCIOECONOMIC
ENVIRONMENT," JENCKS CONCLUDED,
"AND THOSE FACTORS DETERMINE
HOW WELL THEY DO IN SCHOOL."
AN IMPLICIT LOGICAL CONCLUSION
OF THE ANALYSIS PUT FORTH BY
COLEMAN AND BY JENCKS IS THAT WHEN
IT COMES TO STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT, TEACHING DOESN'T
MATTER VERY MUCH.
AND NOW WE GET TO THE
CONTEMPORARY TWIST IN THE
STORY.
RECENT RESEARCH, BEGINNING
ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, HAS BROUGHT
ABOUT A RADICAL REORIENTATION
OF THINKING AMONG SCHOLARS
ABOUT THE RELATIVE ROLE OF THE
TEACHER IN BRINGING ABOUT
STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT GAIN.
THE ELECTRIFYING RHETORIC AND
THE LANDMARK REPORT OF THE U.S.
NATIONAL COMMISSION ON
EXCELLENCE IN EDUCATION, "A
NATION AT RISK," TO SECRETARY
OF EDUCATION TERRELL BELL IN
1983, LED TO A RAPID ESCALATION
OF EDUCATION ON THE NATION'S
POLITICAL AGENDA AND THUS TO
THE ELECTION IN MANY STATES OF
WHAT THE MEDIA THEN CALLED
"EDUCATION GOVERNORS."
SEVERAL OF THESE STATES THEN
INSTITUTED MANDATORY STATE-WIDE
ASSESSMENTS IN CERTAIN CORE
KNOWLEDGE DOMAINS.
THE PURPOSE OF THE TESTS
INITIALLY WAS SIMPLY TO MAKE
VISIBLE WHAT THE CHILDREN
ACTUALLY KNEW.
THAT IS TO MONITOR EDUCATIONAL
PROGRESS.
IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THIS KIND
OF TESTING, HIGH STAKES
CONSEQUENCES FOR TEACHERS OR
SCHOOLS WERE QUITE RARE.
A BY-PRODUCT OF THE TESTING
REGIME HOWEVER WAS THE GRADUAL
ACCUMULATION OF COMPREHENSIVE
DATABASES.
SYSTEMATIC, ORDERLY DATA
COLLECTION WAS NOT COMMON.
EVEN SO, IN MOST CASES, THE
DATA WAS STORED IN WAYS THAT
PERMITTED THE TEST PERFORMANCE
OF INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS TO BE
LINKED WITH THE SPECIFIC
TEACHERS WHO HAD TAUGHT THEM
DURING THE YEAR IMMEDIATELY
PRECEDING THE TEST.
THESE ARE THE KIND OF DATA THAT
WERE NOT AVAILABLE TO COLEMAN
OR TO JENCKS.
WHAT COLEMAN AND JENCKS WERE
WORKING WITH WERE LARGE CENSUS
TRACKED DATA AND THEY WERE
TAKING THE MEANS AND AVERAGES
OF STUDENTS IN ONE SITUATION
AND COMPARING THEM TO THE MEANS
AND AVERAGES OF STUDENTS IN
ANOTHER SITUATION.
THEY DID NOT HAVE THE KIND OF
DATA THAT LINKED THE
PERFORMANCE OF INDIVIDUAL
PUPILS WITH INDIVIDUAL TEACHERS
SO THEY WERE LOOKING AT WHAT
MIGHT HAVE BEEN CALLED "CROSS
SECTIONAL DATA" FROM ONE GROUP
TO ANOTHER GROUP.
IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME
BEFORE RESEARCHERS DISCOVERED
THIS GOLD SEAM OF ACCUMULATED
DATABASES THAT WERE NOW
BEGINNING TO COME ABOUT AND
BEGAN TO MINE IT.
TENNESSEE TURNED OUT TO BE AN
IDEAL SITE FOR STUDY.
THE TESTS ADOPTED THERE WERE
THE WELL KNOWN TERRA NOVA TESTS
MARKED BY McGraw-Hill.
THEIR STANDARDS FOR RELIABILITY
AND VALIDITY WERE REASONABLE
AND BEGINNING IN THE LATE
1980'S THESE TESTS WERE GIVEN
EVERY SPRING IN FOUR KNOWLEDGE
DOMAINS AT THE END OF THE
SCHOOL YEAR, STARTING WITH THE
3RD GRADE AND CONTINUING
THROUGH THE 8TH GRADE.
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE
IN KNOXVILLE, PROFESSOR WILLIAM
SANDERS, A STATISTICIAN,
DEVELOPED A METHOD HE CALLED
"VALUE-ADDED ASSESSMENT" IN
WHICH HE TOOK EACH CHILD'S TEST
SCORE IN A GIVEN YEAR AND
SUBTRACTED IT FROM THE CHILD'S
SCORE IN THE FOLLOWING YEAR.
THIS CHANGE IN
PERFORMANCE, WHAT THE STUDENT
GAINED IN ONE YEAR OF WORK,
BECAME THE FUNDAMENTAL UNIT IN
A COMPLEX STATISTICAL ANALYSIS
OF SCHOOLS AND CLASSROOMS.
THE VALUE-ADDED
METHOD DOES NOT COMPARE THE
SCORES OF STUDENTS IN ONE
SETTING OR SCHOOL TO STUDENTS
IN ANOTHER.
INSTEAD IT COMPARES THE
PERFORMANCE OF A PARTICULAR
INDIVIDUAL STUDENT AGAINST THAT
STUDENT'S OWN PERFORMANCE AT AN
EARLIER TIME.
THE DIFFERENCE IN THE TWO
ASSESSMENTS IS TAKEN AS A
MEASURE OF STUDENT LEARNING
GROWTH, A PART OF WHICH CAN BE
CONCEPTUALIZED AS THE VALUE-
ADDED BY THE TEACHER DURING THE
INTERVENING PERIOD.
BECAUSE EACH STUDENT SERVES AS
THAT STUDENT'S OWN BASELINE OR
CONTROL, THE EXPERIMENTAL
DESIGN REMOVES VIRTUALLY ALL OF
THE INFLUENCE OF THE UNVARYING
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE STUDENT
SUCH AS GENETIC OR
SOCIOECONOMIC FACTORS.
THE MEASURE CAN THUS PROVIDE A
RELATIVELY DIRECT INDICATION OF
THE CLASSROOM INTERVENTION.
THAT IS THE INSTRUCTION
PROVIDED BY THE TEACHER. SANDERS FOUND
THAT SOME TEACHERS CONSISTENTLY
PRODUCE LARGE GAINS IN STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT, IRRESPECTIVE OF
THE KINDS OF STUDENTS ASSIGNED
TO THEM, WHILE OTHER TEACHERS
DO NOT. RACE AND
CLASS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN
THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, AFRICAN
AMERICAN CHILDREN ARE
SIGNIFICANTLY MORE LIKELY TO BE
ASSIGNED TO INEFFECTIVE
TEACHERS THEN WHITE CHILDREN
ARE.
BUT WHEN POOR CHILDREN OR
AFRICAN AMERICAN CHILDREN
ENCOUNTER EFFECTIVE TEACHERS,
THEIR ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE
SHOWS EXTRAORDINARY INCREASE.
THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY, THE VALUE-
ADDED TECHNOLOGY MAKES IT
POSSIBLE TO IDENTIFY THESE
EFFECTS.
THESE FINDINGS HAVE SINCE BEEN
WIDELY REPLICATED IN A VARIETY
OF DIFFERENT SETTINGS WITH
SEVERAL DIFFERENT KINDS OF
EXPERIMENTAL DESIGNS AND
TECHNIQUES.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE LATE JOHN KANE
ANALYZING DATA IN TEXAS SHOWED
THAT THE PROPORTION OF THE
VARIANCE IN STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT
GAIN SCORES, ACCOUNTED FOR BY
TEACHER QUALITY, IS 20 TIMES
GREATER THAN THAT FROM ANY
OTHER VARIABLE, INCLUDING CLASS
SIZE OR SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS.
IF EVER THERE WAS A PARADIGM
SHIFT IN SOCIAL SCIENCE WE ARE
SEEING IT NOW.
TODAY BECAUSE OF VALUE-ADDED
ASSESSMENT STUDIES, THERE IS A
GROWING CONSENSUS THAT THE
SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN
DETERMINING STUDENT PERFORMANCE
IS THE QUALITY OF THE TEACHER?
IT TURNS OUT THAT THE TEACHER
EFFECT IS NOT ONLY REAL BUT
ALSO VERY SUBSTANTIAL.
NOW LET ME REVIEW BRIEFLY WHAT
WE KNOW ABOUT WHO GOES INTO
TEACHING AND WHO IS LEAVING.
THESE FINDINGS COME FROM A
LARGE LONGITUDINAL STUDY
CONDUCTED BY THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT CALLED THE
"BACCALAUREATE AND BEYOND
STUDY."
THIS ANALYSIS IS SYSTEMATICALLY
TRACKING A LARGE STRATIFIED
NATIONAL SAMPLE OF CITIZENS WHO
RECEIVE THEIR BACCALAUREATE
DEGREES FROM COLLEGES OR
UNIVERSITIES IN THE 1992-93
GRADUATION YEAR.
FOR CITIZENS IN THIS SAMPLE,
THE STUDY HAS AVAILABLE THEIR
COMPLETE RECORD OF COURSES
TAKEN AND ALL OF THEIR
EXAMINATION SCORES.
THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION
ABOUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS
SAMPLE.
THE SUBJECTS ARE INTERVIEWED
REGULARLY.
FOR EXAMPLE, ONE YEAR AFTER
GRADUATION, AND FOUR YEARS
AFTER GRADUATION.
DATA FROM THESE INTERVIEWS ARE
THE MOST RECENT THAT HAVE BEEN
ANALYZED AND ARE AVAILABLE.
OF ALL OF THESE GRADUATES FROM
THE CLASS OF 92-93, 26 PERCENT OF THEM
WERE FULLY PREPARED OR WERE
CONSIDERING TO ENTER A CAREER
AS A TEACHER.
THAT'S A FAIRLY SUBSTANTIAL
NUMBER, A quarter OF ALL OF THE
GRADUATES HAD THE CAPACITY AND
HAD INDICATED SOME INTEREST IN
BECOMING TEACHERS, BUT ONLY
HALF OF THOSE ACTUALLY APPLIED
FOR AND ACCEPTED TEACHING
POSITIONS WITHIN FOUR YEARS
AFTER GRADUATION.
THAT IS, 13 PERCENT OF ALL GRADUATES
BECAME TEACHERS.
HERE ARE SOME HIGHLIGHTS...THE
NEW TEACHERS ARE MOSTLY WHITE
AND MOSTLY FEMALE.
THIS IS NOT
NEWS.
AMONG SECONDARY SCHOOL
TEACHERS-- MAYBE THIS IS
NEWS, AMONG SECONDARY SCHOOL
TEACHERS, THOSE ENTERING
TEACHING ARE NO DIFFERENT IN
THEIR ACADEMIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS
THAN ANY OTHER COLLEGE
GRADUATE.
THAT IS THEIR COLLEGE ENTRANCE
TEST SCORES, THEIR GRADE POINT
AVERAGES AND THEIR RIGOR OF
CURRICULUM--THAT'S THE
PROPORTION OF HIGHER LEVEL
COURSES TAKEN--WERE THE SAME AS
FOR ANY OTHER COLLEGE GRADUATE.
AMONG ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
TEACHERS, THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT
DIFFERENCES FROM THE GENERAL
COLLEGE GRADUATE.
COLLEGE ENTRANCE TEST SCORES
ARE LOWER.
THE RIGOR OF THE CURRICULUM
COMPLETED IS LESS AND THE GRADE
POINT AVERAGE IS
HIGHER...THAT'S PROBABLY
CORRELATED WITH THE RIGOR OF
CURRICULUM.
IN THE BACCALAUREATE AND BEYOND
SAMPLE, 20 PERCENT OF ALL OF THOSE WHO
STARTED TEACHING HAD LEFT
TEACHING AFTER FOUR YEARS.
THAT IS one fifth OF THOSE WHO BEGAN
AS TEACHERS WERE NO LONGER
TEACHING FOUR YEARS LATER.
THOSE WHO LEFT WERE TWICE AS
LIKELY TO HAVE SCORED IN THE
HIGHEST QUINTILE ON THEIR
COLLEGE ENTRANCE EXAMINATIONS
THAN THOSE WHO REMAINED.
THERE ARE MANY OTHER
INTERESTING FINDINGS THAT CAN
BE TEASED FROM THE DATA IN THIS
ONGOING STUDY BUT THAT SHOULD
BE ENOUGH--
[Panel chuckling]

Dan says TO GET US GOING
THIS MORNING.
I SHOULD SAY THAT FROM MY OWN
PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, I'M
LESS INTERESTED, IN THE LONG
RUN, IN THE SELECTION OF
TEACHERS THAN I AM IN THE
EDUCATION AND TRAINING OF
TEACHERS.
I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT
HIGHLY EFFECTIVE TEACHERS.
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO AND
HOW WE CAN ENCOURAGE THEM TO
CONTINUE THE GOOD WORK THAT
THEY ARE DOING.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY I WANT TO
KNOW HOW WE CAN EDUCATE FUTURE
TEACHERS TO BE MORE LIKE THEM.
AT CARNEGIE CORPORATION OF NEW
YORK, WE'VE INVESTED VERY
HEAVILY, VERY SIGNIFICANTLY, IN
ATTEMPTING TO IMPROVE THE
QUALITY OF TEACHER EDUCATION BY
ASSISTING 11 UNIVERSITIES
ACROSS THE UNITED STATES IN
STRENGTHENING AND REDESIGNING
THEIR TEACHER EDUCATION
PROGRAMS AROUND THREE LARGE
DESIGN PRINCIPLES.
THE FIRST BEING A PRINCIPLE
ASSOCIATED WITH DEVELOPING AN
UNDERSTANDING FOR AND A RESPECT
FOR EVIDENCE IN ALL OF THE
DECISIONS MADE ABOUT THE
TEACHER EDUCATION PROGRAM.
THE SECOND BEING
ABOUT EFFECTIVE ENGAGEMENT OF
THE DISCIPLINES OF THE ARTS AND
SCIENCES.
AND THE THIRD BEING ABOUT THE
IMPLICATIONS OF SERIOUSLY
CONSIDERING TEACHING AS AN
ACADEMICALLY TAUGHT CLINICAL
PRACTICE PROFESSION.WE'LL BE
DISCUSSING THAT THIS AFTERNOON
AT ONE OF THE SESSIONS AROUND
2:00 BUT FOR NOW LET'S GET THE
PANEL DISCUSSION GOING.
THANK YOU.
[Applause]

The caption reads "Tina Srebotnjak. Moderator."

Tina says THANK YOU VERY MUCH
DAN THAT WAS FASCINATING, SOME
REALLY INTERESTING POINTS YOU
RAISED THERE.
I'M GOING TO START
WITH CAROL ROLHEISER.
YOU'RE ONE OF THE KEEPERS OF
THE GATE.

Tina says YOU ARE ONE OF THE
PEOPLE WHO LOOKS AT APPLICANTS.
SO WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A
CANDIDATE?

The caption changes to "Carol Rolheiser. Associate Dean, OISE."

Carol says THANKS
TINA.
AND AGAIN THIS IS NOT A SOLE
ENDEAVOUR.
IN FACT IT TAKES A VERY LARGE GROUP
OF BOTH FACULTY AT OISE U.T.
AND ALSO OUR FIELD PARTNERS
THAT WORK WITH US.
WE LOOK FOR
A VARIETY OF THINGS.
NUMBER ONE, WE WANT TO ATTRACT
PEOPLE WHO HAVE STRONG ACADEMIC
RECORDS SO WE THINK SCHOLARSHIP
IS IMPORTANT.
IN FACT THE STRONG NUMBER OF
APPLICANTS, ABOUT--I THINK LAST
YEAR WE HAD ABOUT 5,500
APPLICANTS FOR ABOUT 1,300
POSITIONS--ABOUT ONE IN FOUR
ARE BEING ADMITTED.
THEY'RE A HIGH QUALITY GROUP.
AT THE SAME TIME WE WANT TO
LOOK AT THE KINDS OF BACKGROUND
EXPERIENCES THAT PEOPLE BRING
SO ALL OF OUR APPLICANTS
COMPLETE A PROFILE AND THAT
PROFILE REALLY TRIES TO CAPTURE THE
KINDS OF EXPERIENCES THEY'VE
HAD AND HOW THEY SEE THOSE
EXPERIENCES, THOSE LIFE
EXPERIENCES, RELATING TO
TEACHING.
WHAT HAVE THEY LEARNED FROM
THOSE EXPERIENCES?
AND AGAIN, OVER THE LAST YEAR
WE'VE REDESIGNED THE PROCESS TO
REALLY TRY AND BROADEN THE
KINDS OF EXPERIENCES WE SAY ARE
IMPORTANT TO BRING TO TEACHING,
WHETHER IT BE COACHING, WHETHER
IT BE WORKING WITH...I GUESS AN
N.G.O. OR A FAITH-BASED
ORGANIZATION OR IT MAY BE A
PARENTING, SO REALLY TRYING TO
LOOK AT THE RANGE OF
EXPERIENCES.
AND WE ALSO THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO COME IN
SEEING THEIR ROLE AS TEACHER
RELATED TO SOCIAL JUSTICE, SO
REALLY STRENGTHEN THAT PART OF
OUR PROFILE.
THE READING OF THOSE PROFILES
DONE BY AT LEAST TWO READERS IS
A VERY LABOUR-INTENSIVE
ENDEAVOUR.
WE'VE DONE A LOT OF TRAINING TO
SUPPORT THE READERS IN CARRYING
THAT OUT.
SO WE LOOK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
FLEXIBLE IN THEIR THINKING,
PEOPLE WHO SEE INQUIRY AND
DEALING WITH DILEMMAS AS PART
OF THE PROFESSION.
WE LOOK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
RESILIENT.
WE LOOK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
PASSIONATE, WHO WANT TO WORK
WITH LEARNERS AND ARE FEELING
THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE A
DIFFERENCE.
WE ATTRACT A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH
THAT PASSION.

Tina says SO YOU'RE SATISFIED
WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
APPLYING TO YOU RIGHT?
THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE FOR YOU.NOT THE QUALITY OF PEOPLE.

Carol says THE ISSUE
FOR US IS NOT ATTRACTING AND
RECRUITING.
THE ISSUE IS ENSURING THAT
THOSE GREAT PEOPLE THAT ENTER
THE PROFESSION ACTUALLY STAY IN
THE PROFESSION.
I THINK THE STATS, THEY WERE
ABOUT 30 PERCENT LEAVING IN THE FIRST
FIVE YEARS.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE LATEST
STUDIES THAT THE COLLEGE
CARRIED OUT, IT'S NOW ABOUT 12 PERCENT
TO 15 PERCENT ARE AT RISK OF LEAVING
THE PROFESSION.
WE THINK THAT'S TOO LARGE A
NUMBER.

Tina says IT IS.

Carol says WE NEED TO
THINK SERIOUSLY ABOUT WHY AND
WHAT WE CAN DO DIFFERENTLY.

Tina says OKAY LEANNE, YOU WERE
A TEACHER AND YOU LEFT.
WHY?

Leanne says I LEFT, NOT
BECAUSE OF THE CHILDREN.
I LOVED
TEACHING KIDS.
I WORKED IN HIGH SCHOOL.
I ENJOYED WORKING WITH MY
COLLEAGUES AND I SEE MANY OF MY
FORMER COLLEAGUES IN THIS ROOM
TODAY.SO THOSE TWO
REASONS WERE NOT IT.
IT WAS ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS
I COULDN'T CONTROL OUTSIDE OF
THE CLASSROOM.
POLITICAL INSTABILITY.
TEACHER NEGATIVITY AND TEACHER
FRUSTRATION AS A RESULT OF
CHANGES TO EDUCATION REALLY
DEMORALIZED ME AND SO I FOUND
MYSELF WALKING A PICKET LINE IN
1997, CARRYING A PLACARD
FEELING VILIFIED BY SOCIETY.
PARENTS WERE UNHAPPY WITH US,
SOCIETY WAS UNHAPPY,
DISILLUSIONED WITH TEACHERS AND
I HAD SUCH A LONG WAY TO GO IN
MY CAREER I FELT I JUST
COULDN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

Tina says ZANANA WHAT WAS YOUR
EXPERIENCE?
YOU WERE A PRINCIPAL SO YOU
MUST HAVE SEEN GREAT TEACHERS
AND NOT SO GREAT TEACHERS.
WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES A GREAT
TEACHER FOR YOU?

Zanana says WELL I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT THAT TEACHERS HAVE
INTERESTS OUTSIDE OF JUST
EDUCATION. THEY HAVE TO
HAVE SOMETHING THAT THEY BRING
TO THE CHILDREN.
IT'S NOT ENOUGH JUST TO LEARN
THE CURRICULUM AND REGURGITATE
IT BACK. YOU HAVE TO
HAVE EXAMPLES THAT ARE
RELATIVE, THAT ARE RELEVANT TO
THE CHILDREN THAT COME FROM
THEIR WORLD AND TAKE THEM FROM
THEIR WORLD INTO A WORLD THAT
THEY'VE NEVER HAD BEFORE.
IN ORDER TO DO THAT YOU HAVE TO
HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE
CHILDREN'S BACKGROUND.
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME INTEREST
IN THEIR BACKGROUND AND SEE
SOME VALUE IN IT.
AND THAT TYPE OF THING IS
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE
THEN YOU CAN TAKE ANY
CURRICULUM AND BEGIN TO TALK TO
THEM, STARTING FROM THE POINT
WHERE THEY ARE AND SHOWING THEM
THAT WHAT THEY ALREADY KNOW IS
VALUABLE AND THEN BRINGING IT
FORWARD AND EXPLORING A NEW
WORLD.
AND SO HAVING TEACHERS THAT
UNDERSTAND THAT BACKGROUND
MEANS HAVING TEACHERS WHO ALSO
REFLECT THAT BACKGROUND AND WE
DON'T HAVE THAT YET.

Tina says YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
DIVERSITY IN THE CLASSROOM?

Zanana says I'M TALKING
ABOUT DIVERSITY IN THE
CLASSROOM.
IT MEANS A GREAT DEAL TO THE
CHILDREN, TO THE STUDENTS, TO
THE PARENTS--TO BE ABLE TO
WALK INTO THE SCHOOL AND SAY
"THIS IS MY PLACE OF LEARNING.
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO ME."
IT'S NOT THE ONLY THING BUT IT
IS ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS.

Tina says DAN I WANTED TO ASK
YOU BECAUSE IF YOU ASK ANY
PARENT, AND I AM ONE OF A
SCHOOL AGE CHILD, I THINK
PARENTS WILL ALWAYS SAY "WE
LOVE THE NURTURERS.
WE LOVE THE CARING, SHARING
TEACHERS.
THEY'RE THE ONES, THEY'RE THE
ONES."
ARE THEY THE ONES?
IS BEING A "CARING" TEACHER A
BIG INDICATOR OF SUCCESS IN THE
CLASSROOM?

Dan says I THINK WHAT
ZANANA POINTED TO IS TERRIBLY
IMPORTANT.THE IDEA OF
PEDAGOGY IS THE IDEA OF
BRINGING THE STUDENT, BRINGING
THE PUPIL INTO THE EQUATION AND
KNOWING WHERE THE PUPIL IS TO
BEGIN WITH IS AN EXCEPTIONALLY
IMPORTANT PART OF THIS PROCESS.
IT STRESSES AMONG OTHER THINGS
THE ASSESSMENT QUESTION.
TEACHERS HAVE TO KNOW WHERE THE
STUDENT IS, WHAT STUDENT'S
KNOWLEDGE BASE IS, THE TEACHER
ALSO HAS TO KNOW THE CULTURE
THAT THE STUDENT CAME FROM, ALL
OF THESE KINDS OF FACTORS.
IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU ASK
THAT QUESTION TINA BECAUSE THE
DATA ARE NOT 100 PERCENT CLEAR ON
THIS.
WE DO HAVE VERY GOOD DATA FOR
EXAMPLE THAT PRINCIPALS WHO ARE
ROUTINELY ASKED TO EVALUATE
TEACHERS, ARE NOT VERY GOOD
JUDGES OF WHO THE GOOD TEACHERS
ARE.
IF YOU IN FACT DEFINE "GOOD
TEACHING" BY THE STUDENT
ACHIEVEMENT GROWTH THAT IS
ACCOMPLISHED BY TEACHERS IN
THEIR CLASSROOMS.
WHAT PRINCIPALS TEND TO DO IS
TO USE PROXIES THAT ARE
IMPERFECTLY CORRELATED.
SO FOR MANY PRINCIPALS A GOOD
TEACHER IS SOMEONE FOR WHOM FOR
EXAMPLE, THERE'S NOT A LOT OF
NOISE COMING OUT OF THE
CLASSROOM--
[Audience chuckling]

Dan says PARENTS ARE NOT
CALLING IN COMPLAINING, KIDS
ARE NOT BEING SENT DOWN TO THE
PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE FOR
DISCIPLINARY PURPOSES, TEACHER
ADHERES TO THE DRESS CODE,
TEACHER VOLUNTEERS FOR
COMMITTEES.
THAT'S A GOOD TEACHER.
WHAT'S MISSING FROM THIS
PICTURE IS, "ARE THE STUDENTS
LEARNING ANYTHING?"
[Audience chuckling]

Tina says
JUST A SMALL
THING.

Dan says IF YOU LOOK AT
THAT QUESTION, IF YOU LOOK AT
THAT QUESTION, THE EVIDENCE
THAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE IS ABOUT
HALF OF THE PRINCIPALS IN THE
UNITED STATES, ON THE BASIS OF
THE DATA THAT WE HAVE, ABOUT
HALF OF THE PRINCIPALS IN FACT
DO LOOK AT STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT
GROWTH.
AND ABOUT HALF OF THEM ARE
TRULY CLUELESS ABOUT WHO THE
GOOD TEACHERS ARE IF YOU LOOK
AT STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT GROWTH
AS THE PRINCIPLE MEASURE.
THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY LINE
UP WITH THE NURTURING QUESTION.
SO THAT'S WHY ONE HAS TO BE
CAUTIOUS WHEN ANSWERING THIS
QUESTION AND I WOULD SAY THAT
THE ANSWER IS SOMETIMES, YES,
THE NURTURERS ALSO PRODUCE A
STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT GROWTH BUT
THAT'S NOT ALWAYS TRUE.

Tina says I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT
LEANNE SAID ABOUT HOW
DEMORALIZING TEACHING CAN BE.
WE HAVE HAD IN ONTARIO
RECENTLY, PERHAPS NOT THE BEST
ATMOSPHERE FOR EDUCATION, BUT
ASIDE FROM THAT I MEAN IN THE
LARGER ISSUE OF THE RESPECT
THAT TEACHERS GET, THE SALARY
THAT TEACHERS GET--
WHY MORE MEN AREN'T
APPLYING, CAROL WHAT'S GOING ON
THERE?

Carol says
LEANNE
YOU START FIRST.

Tina says OKAY LEANNE.

Leanne says THE QUESTION
ABOUT WHY MORE MEN AREN'T--

Tina says WELL JUST WHY TEACHERS
DON'T GET THE RESPECT THAT THEY
SHOULD.

Leanne says I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION FOR
ME.
TEACHERS WORK VERY HARD.
THEY PERHAPS AREN'T SEEN TO BE
WORKING AS HARD AS THEY ARE.
I DON'T THINK
PEOPLE APPRECIATE HOW DIFFICULT
IT IS TO BE A TEACHER.
IT SEEMS VERY EASY TO GO IN AND
HANG OUT WITH A BUNCH OF
STUDENTS FOR A DAY, AND HAVE
YOUR SUMMERS OFF, AND HAVE
SHORT WORKING DAYS, AND THAT'S
SO WRONG.
THERE ARE SO MUCH WORK
INVOLVED.
AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
LOOK AT TEACHING, YOUNG PEOPLE
GOING INTO IT, PERHAPS THINK
IT'S EASY AND THEN WHEN THEY
START INVESTIGATING, REALIZE
"MY GOODNESS IT'S NOT."
AND ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ENTER
TEACHING IF THAT'S THE CASE,
IT'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
WORK.
AND FRANKLY I DON'T THINK
TEACHERS ARE PAID ALL THAT WELL
FOR THE AMOUNT OF WORK THEY DO
AND ALL THE EXTRA TRAINING THEY
DO.
SO THERE'S A GAP THERE.

Tina says WOULDN'T THAT GO A
LONG WAY TO KEEPING TEACHERS?
I MEAN THIS ISSUE, IF THE
PROBLEM IS HOW DO WE KEEP
TEACHERS?
WOULDN'T MORE MONEY CAROL HELP
THAT?

Carol says I DON'T
THINK Its MONEY ONLY.
I THINK THAT WOULD REALLY
SIMPLIFY THE CHALLENGE.
I DO WANT
TO AGREE WITH LEANNE THOUGH, I
THINK THERE'S A SURPRISE FOR
MANY NEW TEACHERS ABOUT BOTH
THE COMPLEXITY OF THE ROLE, THE
CHALLENGES OF THE ROLE AND IN A
WAY THE REALITY FO THE ROLE.
I THINK
PART OF TEACHER EDUCATION IS WE
NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF
EXPOSING THOSE CHALLENGES, NOT
IN A WAY SUGAR COATING WHAT THE
ROLE OF A TEACHER IS.
YES IT'S ALL OF THOSE WONDERFUL
ASPECTS THAT BRING PEOPLE IN;
THE MAKING A DIFFERENCE WITH
STUDENTS, THE CREATIVITY AND
BEING ABLE TO THINK ABOUT
CURRICULUM IN INNOVATIVE WAYS
BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT DEALING
WITH THE CHALLENGES OF WORKING
WITH PARENTS AND COMMUNITY,
MAYBE NOT SOMETHING THAT ALL
NEW TEACHERS ARE INTRODUCED TO
IN THEIR PROGRAM.
I THINK THE OTHER PART IS THAT
WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT A WHOLE
ARRAY OF OTHER FACTORS THAT
IMPACT WHY TEACHERS MIGHT LEAVE
THE PROFESSION.
YES IT'S ABOUT HOW THE PUBLIC
VIEWS TEACHING BUT IT'S ALSO
ABOUT HOW WE'RE SUPPORTING
TEACHERS.
AND I SAY, "SUPPORT" FROM A
SCHOOL LEVEL, WHAT ARE WE DOING
AT THE SCHOOL LEVEL TO ENSURE
THAT NEW TEACHERS ARE PART OF
TEAMS, THAT THEY'RE NOT
ISOLATED.
WHAT ARE WE DOING AT A DISTRICT
LEVEL TO ENSURE THE RIGHT
MECHANISMS FOR INDUCTION ARE IN
PLACE?
AND THEN WHAT ARE UNIVERSITIES
DOING TO MAINTAIN RELATIONSHIPS
WITH THEIR GRADS TO FIND OUT
WHAT IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE,
WHAT ISN'T MAKING A DIFFERENCE?
SO I THINK IT'S A FAIRLY
COMPLEX SET OF VARIABLES.

Tina says WELL DAN MAYBE YOU CAN
SPEAK TO THAT THEN.
WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE?
IT'S GREAT YOU WANT TO HAVE THE
BEST TEACHERS BUT THERE'S
OBVIOUSLY OBSTACLES THERE.

Dan says I JUST WANT TO
POINT OUT IN THIS BACCALAUREATE
AND BEYOND STUDY, THE
INTERVIEWS THAT HAVE BEEN
CONDUCTED WITH TEACHERS WHO ARE
LEAVING, SALARY IS NOT THE
PRINCIPAL REASON.
IN FACT IT
HARDLY EVER FIGURES INTO THE
QUESTION.IN FACT SALARY OR
PRESTIGE DOESN'T SEEM TO ENTER
INTO IT VERY MUCH.
YOU GET NON-INFORMATIVE
ANSWERS.
PEOPLE SAY THEY'RE LEAVING
BECAUSE "THEY'RE NO LONGER
INTERESTED IN TEACHING."
BUT WHEN YOU PROBE A LITTLE BIT
MORE DEEPLY THERE YOU DO GET
INTO THE ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH
A SENSE OF SUPPORT AND THE
SENSE OF PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITY
WITHIN THE SCHOOL AND THE SENSE
OF THE ABILITY TO ACTUALLY MAKE
A DIFFERENCE AND PERFORM AS A
PROFESSIONAL WITHIN THAT
ENVIRONMENT. THOSE SEEM TO BE
THE MORE CRITICAL FACTORS WITH
RESPECT TO WHY PEOPLE LEAVE.
I WANTED TO JUST TOUCH UPON ONE
OF THE CONCEPTS THAT CAROL
RAISED, WHICH IS THE NOTION OF
INDUCTION.
WE DO HAVE GOOD
DATA, OR EMERGING DATA I SHOULD
SAY, INDICATING THAT IF YOU
HAVE AN EFFECTIVE PROGRAM OF
TEACHER INDUCTION THAT IS
WORKING CAREFULLY WITH TEACHERS
DURING THEIR FIRST TWO YEARS OF
THEIR PROCESSIONAL LIFE AS
TEACHERS THAT YOU CAN REDUCE
ATTRITION BY DRAMATIC
PROPORTIONS, AS MUCH AS 50 PERCENT TO
80 PERCENT--

Tina says WOW


Dan says IF IN FACT YOU
HAVE A GOOD INDUCTION PROGRAM.
WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE A
DISTINCTION WITHIN OUR TEACHERS
FOR A NEW ERA PROGRAM AT
CARNEGIE CORPORATION OF NEW
YORK BETWEEN WHAT WE WOULD CALL
TEACHER EDUCATION BASED
INDUCTION PROGRAM AS OPPOSED TO
A DISTRICT BASED INDUCTION
PROGRAM.
WE THINK THESE TWO THINGS CAN
CO-EXIST BUT THEY'RE BOTH
ELEMENTS OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
YOU BEGIN TO THINK SERIOUSLY
ABOUT THE NOTION OF TEACHING AS
A CLINICAL PRACTICE PROFESSION.
IF IT'S A CLINICAL PRACTICE
PROFESSION, MUCH OF THE WORK OF
BECOMING A TEACHER HAS TO TAKE
PLACE IN THE CLASSROOM.

Tina says
MUCH AS DOCTORS
DO IN RESIDENCY.

Dan says EXACTLY.
AND THAT WORK, THE WAY WE'VE
STRUCTURED THINGS IT'S REALLY
GOOFY BECAUSE WHAT WE DO IS WE
GO THROUGH THIS ELABORATE
TRAINING PROGRAM THAT CAROL CAN
TALK ABOUT AND THEN WE JUST
THROW THEM OUT THERE.

Tina says YEAH IT'S LIKE JANE
SAID, HURRY UP AND LEARN.
OFF YOU GO.

Dan says THAT KIND OF
SITUATION IS NOT VERY HELPFUL.
AND IF A TEACHER IS IN A
SETTING WHERE THEY'RE IN AN
INDUCTION PROGRAM THAT'S
DISTRICT-BASED FOR EXAMPLE,
THOSE PROGRAMS CAN BE QUITE
GOOD AND THEY ARE EFFECTIVE BUT
ANY TEACHER WOULD KNOW THAT
THAT INDUCTION PROGRAM IS BEING
ORGANIZED AND TAUGHT AND
SUPPORTED BY THE PEERS AND
SUPERIORS OF THE TEACHER.

Tina says ZANANA, IN YOUR
EXPERIENCE CAN YOU TALK ABOUT
THAT?
HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE SUPPORT
THAT YOU AS PRINCIPAL COULD
GIVE TO A TEACHER?
THE SUPPORT THAT OTHER TEACHERS
GAVE EACH OTHER?

The caption changes to "Zanana Akande. Urban Alliance on Race Relations."

Zanana says WELL I THINK IT'S
OF EXTREME IMPORTANCE, AFTER
ALL, A PRINCIPAL IS THE
PRINCIPAL TEACHER.
AND SHE OR HE
MUST SPEND MOST OF HIS TIME
MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE
PROVIDING SUPPORT FOR TEACHERS.
SOMETIMES
THAT'S DEMONSTRATION LESSONS.
I KNOW THAT SOME OF THE
TEACHERS IN THE SCHOOL WERE
SURPRISED THAT I WAS GIVING
DEMONSTRATION LESSONS--
[Chuckling from panel]

Zanana says OR THAT I
WOULD COME IN AND SAY, "I'M NOT
QUITE SURE I SUPPORT THE WAY
YOU'RE DOING THAT.
LET'S LOOK AT IT ANOTHER WAY."
I HAVE TO TELL YOU THOUGH THAT
THERE ARE CHALLENGES FOR THAT
BECAUSE WHILE YOU'RE DOING
DEMONSTRATION LESSONS THE BOARD
OFFICE IS ASKING YOU TO DO ALL
KINDS OF OTHER THINGS WHICH
DETRACT FROM YOUR MAIN FOCUS.
YOU HAVE TO DECIDE, EITHER
YOU'RE GOING TO DO THOSE OTHER
THINGS AT NIGHT AND YOU'RE
GOING TO SPEND YOUR TIME
SUPPORTING THE TEACHERS.
THE OTHER THING ABOUT IT IS THE
PRACTICE TEACHING SESSIONS ARE
ALSO TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITIES
FOR THE TEACHERS IN THE SCHOOL
WHERE THE STUDENT-TEACHERS ARE
PRACTISING, TO GO IN AND TO
SUPPORT THAT TOO.
BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO GET
THE BEST OUT OF TEACHERS, YOU
HAVE TO INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT
AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM VERY
CLEARLY WHAT YOU EXPECT.
YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM "I WANT
EXAMPLES FROM THE CHILDREN'S
LIVES."
YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT "I
EXPECT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT THE
HOLIDAYS THAT THE CHILDREN ARE
CELEBRATING."
YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT "I
EXPECT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISHONESTY
AND OPPORTUNITY AS IT'S SEEN
FROM THE EYES OF POVERTY."
YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT.
AND WHEN YOU TELL THEM THAT
THEY BEGIN TO FIND OUT.
YOU HAVE TO FIND YOURSELF NOW
AND THEN IN THE STAFF ROOM
BECAUSE SOME OF THE
CONVERSATIONS ARE THE KINDS OF
NOTHINGS THAT WOULD ASSIST YOU
IN UNDERSTANDING THE TEACHER'S
POINT OF VIEW SO THAT YOU CAN
SHALL WE SAY REDIRECT IT.
[Audience chuckling]

Tina says VERY JUDICIOUS USE OF
WORDS THERE.
LEANNE DID YOU FEEL PREPARED--
ONE OF THE IDEAS I
THINK THAT WILL COME UP IS
LONGER TRAINING PROGRAM FOR
TEACHERS.
DID YOU FEEL PREPARED AFTER
YOU’RE TRAINING TO GO INTO A
CLASSROOM?

Leanne says NO I DIDN'T. NO I DID NOT.
MY FIRST
SCHOOL WAS A SPECIAL EDUCATION
SCHOOL AND I TOOK PART ONE OF
SPECIAL EDUCATION AND THOUGHT I
WAS PREPARED AND MY GOODNESS I
WAS NOT.I, MANY TIMES
IN MY FIRST YEAR, CONSIDERED
LEAVING THE PROFESSION BECAUSE
IT WAS SO DIFFICULT.
THANKS TO THE SUPPORT OF
COLLEAGUES AND THEIR SHARING
WITH ME STRATEGIES AND
SUGGESTIONS AND COMING RIGHT
INTO MY CLASSROOM, WORKING WITH
ME, THAT REALLY GOT ME THROUGH.
IT WASN'T MY PREPARATION AT
ALL.

Carol says JUST
PICKING UP ON LEANNE'S POINT, I
THINK THAT WHOLE AREA OF
SPECIAL EDUCATION IS A CRITICAL
ONE.
THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG
DIFFERENCES IN OUR CLASSROOM
TODAY.
THAT WE HAVE A
MUCH MORE DIVERSE GROUP OF
LEARNERS.
PART OF THE TEACHER EDUCATION
CURRICULUM NEEDS TO BE MORE
INTENSELY FOCUSED ON MEETING
THAT VARIETY OF STUDENT NEEDS.
AND I THINK
THAT'S AN AREA, ESPECIALLY IN
THE INITIAL YEARS OF TEACHING,
THAT TEACHERS SAY IS ONE OF THE
MOST CHALLENGING ASPECTS.
I GUESS ONE OF THE THINGS I
WORRY ABOUT IS THAT OUR
INDUCTION HAS BEEN SORT OF HIT
OR MISS.
SOME TEACHERS ARE PART OF AN
INDUCTION PROGRAM.
SOME ARE EXPERIENCE AN ORIENTATION
DAY OR ONE FRIENDLY TEACHER
BESIDE THEM BUT IT'S NOT
PROGRAMMATIC, IT'S NOT
SYSTEMATIC SO IT REALLY IS HOW
DO YOU TAKE--THE PRINCIPAL IS
ONE MECHANISM OF SUPPORT, A
GROUP OF COLLEAGUES IN THAT
SCHOOL WHOM YOU'RE TEAM
TEACHING WITH OR YOU'RE
PLANNING WITH OR YOU'RE LOOKING
AT THE EVIDENCE OF STUDENT WORK
AND DISCUSSING IT SO THAT IT'S
A MORE JOB EMBEDDED, DAY-TO-DAY
PART OF A TEACHER'S LIFE.
AND I THINK THAT'S CRITICAL.

Leanne says I THINK ALONG
WITH THAT, WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE
NEW TEACHERS TO BE WILLING TO
SAY, "I'M STRUGGLING" BECAUSE I
FELT LIKE A FAILURE.
I DIDN'T WANT TO ADMIT THAT I
COULDN'T HANDLE MY STUDENTS.
SO IF I COULD HAVE JUST BEEN
HONEST WITH PEOPLE FROM THE
START AND JUST ASKED FOR HELP
INSTEAD OF SUFFERING WITH MY
DOOR CLOSED, I THINK THAT WOULD
HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

Carol says THE MORE
YOU HAVE A RELATIONSHIP--

Leanne says ABSOLUTELY.

Carol says WITH OTHER
TEACHERS, THE EASIER IT IS TO
BE HONEST AND HAVE THAT TRUST.

Tina says I'M GOING TO OPEN THE
FLOOR NOW BECAUSE I KNOW
EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET A WORD
IN HERE.
SO THE MICROPHONE IS OVER THERE
AND WHILE PEOPLE ARE MAKING
THEIR WAY TO THE MICROPHONES,
I'M GOING TO ASK ANOTHER PARENT
QUESTION AND IF YOU'VE DONE AS
MUCH TIME IN THE COFFEE SHOPS
AS I HAVE WITH OTHER PARENTS,
INEVITABILITY THE IDEA OF THE
BAD TEACHER COMES UP.
IT'S GREAT TO WANT TO ATTRACT
GOOD TEACHERS AND ALL THAT BUT
HERE'S THE QUESTION, "WHAT DO
YOU DO WITH THE BAD TEACHERS?"
I KNOW THEY JUST CAN'T BE
FIRED, IT'S A LOT MORE
COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
BUT HOW DO YOU FINESSE THIS IN
THE SCHOOLS?
I DON'T KNOW WHO'S THE BEST,
CAROL?
ZANANA MISS FIRING PRINCIPAL
OVER THERE.

Zanana says I THINK
EVALUATION IS EXTREMELY
IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT'S HELPFUL
TO THE TEACHER TO KNOW WHAT HE
OR SHE IS DOING WRONG.
AND I DON'T
MEAN BY WRITING AN ENDLESS LIST
OF THINGS BUT DEVELOPING A
PRIORITY AND SAYING IF YOU DID
THESE THINGS AND ASKING THEM IF
THEY REQUIRE SUPPORT.
IF YOU CAN BRING IN A
CONSULTANT, IF THEY WANT YOU TO
ASSIST THEM, IF THEY WANT YOU
TO PAIR THEM WITH SOMEBODY ELSE
IN THE SCHOOL.
ULTIMATELY IF IT CONTINUES,
I THIK EVALUATION IS A GOOD THING AND
PERHAPS A CONFERENCE WITH THEM
ABOUT IS THERE A SITUATION
WHERE THEY WOULD FEEL MORE
COMFORTABLE OR THEY WOULD FEEL
THAT THEIR SKILLS WOULD BE PUT
TO BETTER USED THAN IN YOUR
COMMUNITY IS ALWAYS HELPFUL
ALSO.
BECAUSE AT LEAST IF YOU CANNOT, HAVE THEM
LEAVE THE PROFESSION, THEY MAY
CHOOSE TO LEAVE THE SCHOOL.

Tina says AND IT'S SOMEONE
ELSE'S PROBLEM.

Carol says WE CAN ALSO
DO A BETTER JOB IN TEACHER
EDUCATION SO I KNOW WE'VE
INTENSIFIED OUR WORK AT OISE
U.T.IN TERMS HAVE
OUR SCHOOL UNIVERSITY
PARTNERSHIP OFFICE, HELPING OUR
INSTRUCTORS IDENTIFY TEACHER-
CANDIDATES AT RISK AND THAT THE
INSTRUCTORS HAVE BEEN WORKING
ON A MULTI-PRONGED STRATEGY TO
REALLY INTERVENE SO THAT ONE OF
TWO THINGS CAN HAPPEN.

Carol says WE CAN
EITHER COUNSEL OR PEOPLE CAN
COUNSEL THEMSELVES OUT OF THE
PROFESSION VERY EARLY ON OR
THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY SAY "YOU
KNOW WHAT PART OF THE GATE
KEEPING IS SAYING THAT THIS
PERSON IS IN FACT NOT GOING TO
LIKELY BE SUCCESSFUL AND WE'RE
ACTUALLY GOING TO FAIL SOME
STUDENTS IN THEIR TEACHER
EDUCATION PROGRAM.
SO I THINK IT HAS TO ALSO START
THERE.

Tina says DAN DO YOU WANT TO GET
ONE QUICK WORD IN?

Dan says JUST QUICKLY
ABOUT THIS, I THINK THAT THE
QUESTION OF WORKING WITH
TEACHER EFFECTIVENESS IS
COMPLICATED BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO
KNOW WHAT TEACHER EFFECTIVENESS
IS.AND PART OF THE
COMPLICATION HERE IS THAT IF
THE TEACHERS THEMSELVES HAVE
CONFIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE A
SYSTEM THAT IN FACT CAN
IDENTIFY WITH SOME ORDER OF
CERTAINTY WHO THE TEACHERS,
THEN THE TEACHERS WILL IN FACT
PARTICIPATE IN A PROCESS THAT
WILL WIN MORALE OF GOOD
TEACHERS BECAUSE THE GOOD
TEACHERS DON'T LIKE TO HAVE
THOSE BAD APPLES IN THEIR
SCHOOLS BUT WHAT THEY DISTRUST,
AND I THINK THEY HAVE A MORAL
IMPERATIVE TO DISTRUST, IS A
SYSTEM OF EVALUATION LIKE THE
ONE I JUST DESCRIBED THAT IS SO
IMPERFECT IN TERMS OF TRYING TO
DETERMINE WHO THE GOOD TEACHERS
ARE.
THERE ARE GOOD EXAMPLES OF
THIS.
IN TOLEDO, OHIO IN THE EARLY
1980'S, THE TEACHER UNION THERE
WAS SUCCESSFUL IN BEING ABLE TO
CONVINCE THE SCHOOL BOARD TO
CREATE A MENTORING SYSTEM AND
AN EVALUATION SYSTEM THAT WAS
PROFESSIONALIZED AND RUN BY
TEACHERS.
AND THE TEACHERS THEMSELVES
THEN EVALUATED THEIR COLLEAGUES
AND PEERS BASED UPON THE
QUALITY OF STUDENT WORK.
AND THEY DEVELOPED A VERY
CAREFUL INDUCTION SYSTEM FOR
NEW TEACHERS COMING IN.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 20 YEARS
PRECEDING THE INTRODUCTION OF
THAT SYSTEM IN TOLEDO, THE
NUMBER OF TENURED TEACHERS
REMOVED FROM THE PAYROLL WAS
THE SUM OF FOUR PEOPLE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 20 YEARS
FOLLOWING THAT, THE NUMBER OF
TENURED TEACHERS REMOVED FROM
THE PAYROLL WAS 47.

Tina says WOW.

Dan says FURTHERMORE, ON
THE CURRENT INDUCTION SYSTEM,
ABOUT 8 PERCENT OF THEIR NEW TEACHERS
ARE COUNSELLED OUT OF THEIR
PROFESSION WITHIN THE FIRST TWO
YEARS OF THEIR TEACHING.
THE NET RESULT HAS BEEN
EXTREMELY POSITIVE FOR TOLEDO,
A VERY DEPRESSED CITY WITHIN
THE STATE OF OHIO, WHICH HAS HAD
DURING THE TIME OF THIS
PROCESS, AMONG THE HIGHEST TEST
SCORES IN THE STATE OF OHIO.
I CITE THAT AS AN EXAMPLE OF
HOW YOU CAN WORK WITH THE
COMMUNITY AND WITH THE
PROFESSION TO IN FACT IMPROVE THE
QUALITY OF TEACHING.

Tina says GREAT, LET'S GO TO THE
FLOOR.

A woman appears at the microphone. She is in her fifties and has curly blonde
hair with fringe. She wears a black sweater and white shirt.

Female Audience Member 1 says I REALLY FOUND IT SO
WONDERFUL THAT YOU WERE VERY
HONEST AND YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT
BEING A NEW TEACHER AND YET
BEING AFRAID TO SAY THAT YOU
WERE STRUGGLING SOMEWHAT.
IN MY READING AND IN MY
ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, THIS HAS
BEEN SUCH AN IMPORTANT AREA.
NEW TEACHERS COMING IN AND
TRYING TO GET THE SUPPORT OF
COLLEAGUES BECAUSE TEACHING CAN
BE SUCH AN ISOLATING PROCESS.
YOU'VE GOT YOUR ROOM AND YOU
CLOSE THE DOOR AND YOU DO WHAT
YOU CAN WITH YOUR STUDENTS.
WE HAVE BEEN STRUGGLING AT MY
SCHOOL TO ESTABLISH A
PROFESSIONAL LEARNING COMMUNITY
BECAUSE THAT HAS BEEN THE
NATURE OF MY READING AND I'M
JUST WONDERING IN A CANADIAN
CONTEXT IF THIS HAS BEEN LOOKED
AT?
HOW WE CAN REALLY EMBED THIS IN
THE SCHOOL CULTURE BECAUSE TIME
IS OF THE ESSENCE AND AFTER A
DAY OF WORKING WITH CHILDREN
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO EXPECT
PEOPLE TO WORK AND TO REALLY
DISCUSS THE ESSENCE OF TEACHING
WITH THEIR COLLEAGUES.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S
BEEN LOOKED AT IN OUR CANADIAN
SCHOOLS.
I'D BE INTERESTED TO HEAR
COMMENTS IN THAT AREA.

Carol says THE NATURE
OF THE TEACHER EDUCATION
EXPERIENCE, ONE OF THE
PRINCIPALS OF OUR PROGRAM AT
OISE U.T. IS THAT OUR STUDENTS
ARE A PART OF A COHORT
WHERE THE
SENSE OF COMMUNITY CAN REALLY
BE ESTABLISHED, EXPERIENCED,
MODELLED AND SO FORTH SO THAT
THE GRADUATES IN A WAY ARE
WANTING TO RECREATE THAT
EXPERIENCE IN THEIR OWN
SCHOOLS, IN THEIR OWN
CLASSROOMS.
NOT ONLY ARE THEY SEEKING OUT
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE WORK
TOGETHER, THEY'RE ALSO
DEVELOPING THE SKILLS IN BEING
ABLE TO CREATE THOSE SAME
ENVIRONMENTS.
AGAIN I THINK THAT IT'S A
VALUING PROFESSIONAL LEARNING
COMMUNITY AS A PART OF OUR
PROFESSION.

A man appears at the microphone in his fifties with grey hair, glasses and
wearing a black jacket and green shirt.

Male Audience Member says GOOD MORNING AND THANK YOU
FOR PROVOKING US WITH A LOT OF
INTERESTING QUESTIONS.
THE CONCERN I WANT TO RAISE IS
DO WE WANT TO BROADEN THE
QUESTION OF THE PURPOSES OF
TEACHING?
IF TEACHING IS ONLY TO RAISE
TEST SCORES THAN WHAT ARE WE
DOING TO THE PROFESSION?
AND IF TEACHERS ARE NOT
INVOLVED IN THAT BROADER
QUESTION OF WHAT EDUCATION IS
FOR THEN YOU MIGHT INDEED ASK
WHY BECOME A TEACHER IF IT
DOESN'T HAVE THE BROADER
PURPOSES.

Tina says DAN DO YOU WANT TO
TAKE THAT?

Dan says I WOULD SAY THAT
JOHN DEWY WAS INTERESTED IN
THAT STUDENTS LEARN SOMETHING.
SO ULTIMATELY I
THINK THERE'S NO WAY OF
FINESSING THE QUESTION THAT
STUDENT LEARNING GROWTH IS THE
ONLY WAY BY WHICH HIGH QUALITY
TEACHING IS MADE VISIBLE.
AND THE QUESTION
THEN IS HOW DO WE GO ABOUT
DETERMINING WHETHER THE STUDENT
IS LEARNING ANYTHING?
YOU CAN DO IT THROUGH
QUANTITATIVE STANDARDIZED
TESTING, THAT'S ONE OF THE
MEANS THAT WE USE FOR THIS
PURPOSE.
IT'S NOT IN MY VIEW THE BEST
MEANS BY WHICH WE SHOULD DO
THIS.
AND IT CAN HAVE THESE
DELETERIOUS EFFECTS BUT THERE
ARE OTHER WAYS OF DOING IT.
IN OUR TEACHER EDUCATION REFORM
PROCESS AT CARNEGIE CORPORATION

OF NEW YORK, WE HAVE STRESSED
THAT STUDENT LEARNING GROWTH
HAS GOT TO BE THE PRIMARY
INDICATOR OF WHETHER OR NOT A
TEACHER EDUCATION PROGRAM IS
ACTUALLY WORKING EFFECTIVELY
BUT WE HAVE NOT GONE THE EXTRA
STEP OF TELLING THE
INSTITUTIONS WHAT WE MEAN BY
STUDENT LEARNING.
WE SAY THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM,
YOU DO IT AND YOU CAN DO IT BY
DOING PORTFOLIO ASSESSMENTS, BY
DOING QUALITATIVE WORK, YOU CAN
DO A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS
BUT YOU MUST ADHERE TO THE
BASIC TENETS OF SCIENTIFIC
OBSERVATION; THAT WHICH YOU ARE
OBSERVING SHOULD BE RELIABLE,
SHOULD BE VALID, IT SHOULD BE
TRANSPARENT, IT SHOULD BE
DISCUSSABLE.
YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK
ABOUT THE QUALITY OF STUDENT
WORK IN A REASONABLE CONTEXT.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY WAY
OF FINESSING THAT SO ULTIMATELY
THE QUESTION OF THE SCHOOLS YOU
NEED IS A VALUES QUESTION THAT
WE OUGHT TO ENGAGE IN AS A
SOCIETY, WHICH YOU SHOULD BE
ABLE TO DEFINE WHAT YOU WANT
YOUR KIDS TO KNOW AND THEN YOU
SHOULD GO ABOUT HELPING THE
KIDS KNOW THAT.

Tina says ZANANA?

Zanana says I THINK
THAT'S THE QUESTION THAT I
BELIEVE THE QUESTION WAS
GETTING AT.
WHAT ARE THE SCHOOLS WE NEED?
HOW ARE WE INVOLVED IN DEFINING
WHAT WE NEED IN THE SOCIETY OR IN THE FUTURE SO
THAT IT BECOMES RELEVANT AND
USEFUL AND NECESSARY FOR KIDS
TO LEARN IT.
I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.
I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT
THING.
I THINK WE HAVE IN ONTARIO BEEN
EDGING OUR WAY FROM RYERSON FOR
MANY, MANY YEARS BUT WE HAVEN'T
LET THEM VERY FAR AND WE HAVE
TO EVERY SO OFTEN RE-EVALUATE
AND SAY WHAT IS IT THAT WE NEED
IN EDUCATION SO THAT WE DON'T
KEEP EDUCATING CHILDREN FOR
YESTERDAY RATHER THAN FOR
TOMORROW AND THAT'S A VALID
QUESTION.
IT BRINGS TO MIND A
QUOTE THAT BILL GATES, I'M SURE
YOU KNOW IT, "OUR SCHOOLS ARE
FAILING US.
WE'RE SIMPLY NOT TEACHING KIDS
WHAT THEY NEED TO KNOW."
BUT THAT'S ANOTHER DISCUSSION.

Virginia appears at the microphone. She is in her forties and has blonde hair
that is pulled back. She wears a black shirt with a purple and pink flowered
scarf.

Virginia says I’M VIRGINIA STAEDT.
I'M A DOCTORAL STUDENT AT OISE.
MY QUESTION IS FOR ZANANA.
BRIEFLY IF YOU COULD COMMENT ON
WAYS IN WHICH YOU THINK SCHOOL
BOARDS HAVE OVERLY
DECENTRALIZED RESPONSIBILITY TO
THE POINT OF EXPANDING THE
PRINCIPALS' PORTFOLIO TO A 24
HOUR A DAY JOB.

Zanana says YES WELL FRANKLY MUCH OF THE
MATERIAL OR THE INFORMATION
THAT YOU'RE ASKED TO GATHER
RELATIVE TO THE STUDENT
POPULATION, SOME OF IT, AND THE
FAMILIES--SOME OF IT
WHICH SEEMS SINCE WE'RE ALL
USING COMPUTERS, IT WOULD SEEM
TO ME THAT COULD BE GATHERED
RIGHT AT THE MAIN OFFICE.
BUT YOU'RE ASKED TO DO IT IN A
CERTAIN FORM, IN A DETAILED
FORMAT AND SENT TO CERTAIN
CENTRES AND IT SEEMS THAT SOME
OF THE OTHER INFORMATION THAT
YOU'RE ASKED TO DEAL WITH IS
QUITE COMMON TO THE LAST SURVEY
YOU JUST FILLED OUT.
[Audience chuckling]

Zanana says YOU THINK I SEE SOME
HEADS NODDING.
WHY DON'T YOU JUST PULL THE
RELEVANT INFORMATION OFF THERE
INSTEAD OF ASKING ME TO DO THIS
ALL AGAIN.
YOU'RE BUDGETING EXERCISES
WHICH WERE SUBMIT THE BUDGET
AND THAT WAS THE WAY IT WAS, IT
NOW HAS TO BE BROKEN DOWN INTO
VARIOUS CATEGORIES SO THAT IN
FACT YOU'RE REFOCUSING YOUR
BUDGET IN CERTAIN AREAS.
I WAS IN A SCHOOL LAST WEEK
WHERE I WAS HELPING ONE OF MY
COLLEAGUES, USED TO BE MY VICE
PRINCIPAL, GOING THROUGH THIS
PROCESS.
THE KIND OF SUSPENSION NOTICES
THAT NOW HAVE TO GO OUT AND GO
OUT ON A PARTICULAR FORM WHICH
ALMOST PRECLUDE THE PREVIOUS--
WELL THEY DON'T PRECLUDE IT BUT
THEY MAKE DIFFICULT THE KIND OF
DISCUSSION AND INFORMAL
MASSAGING THAT WENT ON WITH THE
PARENT BECAUSE IT HAS TO GO OUT
IN THIS FORM AND IN THIS WAY.
THE MEETINGS AROUND HOW YOU'RE
SUPPOSED TO DO THE THING TAKES
TIME OUT OF THE SCHOOL WHEN
YOU'RE USED TO BEING THERE IN
ORDER TO INTERACT.
SO PRINCIPALS ARE SAYING I FEEL
MORE LIKE AN OFFICE MANAGER AND
A GOPHER AND A FORM FILLER
AND....QUIT NODDING AT ME. I KNOW I AGREE.
[Audience chuckling]

Zanana says AND I CAN'T
BE THERE WHEN TEACHERS SAY I
NEED YOU TO DO...I WANT YOU TO
DO...

Carol says I'M ALSO
WONDERING THOUGH IF THERE'S A
PARALLEL THOUGH THAT WHEN WE
TALK TO MANY OF OUR GRADUATES
ABOUT THE BIGGEST SURPRISES IN
THE PROFESSION, IT'S AROUND THE
TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
ADMINISTRATIVE WORK THAT THEY
DO AS NEW TEACHERS.
SO THE SAME PARALLEL WE SEE
WITH THE PRINCIPAL, WE ALSO SEE
IN--AND I THINK IN PLACES LIKE
ENGLAND ARE TACKLING THIS IN
RATHER INNOVATIVE WAYS WHERE IN
FACT THEY'RE INVESTING MORE
SUPPORT FOR TEACHERS TO TAKE
AND REMOVE SOME OF THAT
ADMINISTRATIVE RESPONSIBILITY
SO THEY CAN FOCUS ON THE
CHILDREN, ON LEARNING, ON
TEACHING AND NOT ON COLLECTING
PIZZA MONEY AND FILLING OUT
FORMS FOR FIELD TRIPS AND SO
FORTH.

Tina says
OKAY--

Virginia says I REALIZE IT WOULD BE RUDE
TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION BUT DAN
JUST AN OBSERVATION--

Tina says
BUT THAT WON'T
STOP YOU.
[Audience laughing]

Virginia says I'M NOT GOING TO ASK A
QUESTION.
DAN YOU TALKED ABOUT RACISM AND
MAKING IT EXPLICIT.
YOU DID NOT TALK ABOUT
CHALLENGING IT IF I HEARD
CORRECTLY.
AND THE OTHER COMMENT YOU MADE
EARLIER WAS YOU CARE LESS ABOUT
WHO GETS IN TO TEACHERS
COLLEGES THAN YOU DO ABOUT WHAT
THEY LEARN THERE AND I THINK
THAT BEARS THINKING ABOUT.

Dan says I THINK THE
SELECTION QUESTION IS OBVIOUSLY
IMPORTANT AND I DIDN'T MEAN TO
DEMEAN IT. IT'S JUST THAT I
THINK YOU CAN GET INTO NON-
PRODUCTIVE DEBATES ABOUT
WHETHER GOOD TEACHERS ARE BORN
AND NOT MADE. AND THAT DOESN'T
GET YOU ANYWHERE.
I THINK ULTIMATELY IF YOU ARE
AN EDUCATOR YOU'RE INTERESTED
IN FACT HELPING PEOPLE
BECOME EFFECTIVE TEACHERS AND
THAT'S WHERE, FOR THE MOMENT,
WHERE I'M PUTTING MY PRIMARY
EMPHASIS.
ON THE QUESTION OF RACE, RACE
SEEMS TO ME JUST AN
EXCEPTIONALLY IMPORTANT ELEMENT
IN OUR SOCIETY AND WE DO NOT
DISCUSS IT ENOUGH AND IT
ULTIMATELY PROVES TOXIC IN A
VARIETY OF DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS
AND I WANT TO MENTION JUST ONE
STUDY HERE THAT I THINK IS
TERRIBLY IMPORTANT.
THIS WAS A STUDY CONDUCTED JUST
TWO YEARS AGO BY THE BAY AREA
SCHOOL REFORM COLLABORATIVE IN
THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA.
WHAT THE RESEARCHERS THERE DID
WAS THEY FOUND A GROUP OF
MIDDLE SCHOOLS AND THEY WERE
ABLE TO FIND 16 OF THEM THAT
WERE EXACTLY EQUAL TO ANOTHER
16, MATCHED ON VARIETY OF
SOCIAL ECONOMIC AND DEMOGRAPHIC
INDICATORS AND TEACHER QUALITY
INDICATORS SO THAT THESE TWO
GROUPS OF SCHOOLS WERE EXACTLY
THE SAME IN THE THINGS THAT YOU
WOULD LOOK AT EXCEPT FOR ONE
DIFFERENCE.
ONE OF THOSE SCHOOLS OVER A
FOUR-YEAR PERIOD--ONE OF THOSE
GROUPS OF 16 SCHOOLS OVER A
FOUR YEAR PERIOD HAD CLOSED THE
ACHIEVEMENT GAP EXTRAORDINARILY
WELL.
THE OTHER GROUP IT HAD ACTUALLY
WIDENED.
AND WHEN THEY WENT IN TO
ACTUALLY DETERMINE WHAT WAS THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE SETS
OF SCHOOLS THEY WERE QUITE
SURPRISED TO DISCOVER THAT IT
DIDN'T HAVE TO DO WITH TEACHER
ATTITUDES FOR EXAMPLE.
IN BOTH SCHOOLS TEACHERS SAID
CLOSING THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP IS
A VERY IMPORTANT NATIONAL
PRIORITY AND IT'S AN IMPORTANT
PERSONAL PRIORITY FOR ME.
IT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO
WITH ATTITUDES.
IT HAD TO DO WITH THE
BEHAVIOURS IN THE SCHOOLS.
WHEN ASKED, "HOW OFTEN DO YOU
DISCUSS THE QUALITY OF STUDENT
WORK, SEPARATELY BY RACE AND
CLASS?" THOSE IN THE GAP
WIDENING SCHOOLS SAID ON
AVERAGE ONCE A YEAR.
THOSE IN THE GAP CLOSING SCHOOL
SAID ON AVERAGE TWICE A WEEK.
THE DIFFERENCE WAS THAT THOSE
TEACHERS HAD FOUND A WAY TO GET
TO THE DIFFICULT QUESTION OF
WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT BLACK
KIDS, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
ASIAN KIDS, WE'RE GOING TO TALK
ABOUT HISPANIC KIDS, WE'RE
GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHITE KIDS
AND THAT'S GOING TO FORCE US TO
TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT LEARNING
STYLES, TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT
CULTURES.
AND WE'RE GOING TO DO IT
EXPLICITLY IN TERMS OF QUALITY
OF STUDENT WORK AND THAT HAD A
PROFOUND IMPACT ON THE QUALITY
OF THE EDUCATION GOING ON IN
THOSE SCHOOLS.

Tina says THANK YOU.
LET ME JUST END BY THANKING OUR
PANELLISTS WHO I THINK HAVE
BEEN TERRIFIC TODAY.
Zanana Akande, Carol Rolheiser,
Leanne Miller, Dan Fallon.
[Applause]

Tina says SO I WANT TO THANK YOU
ALL FOR PARTICIPATING OUR
PANELLISTS.
IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE TO BE
HERE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
[Applause]

Watch: OISE Panel - Lecture and Panel on "Are The Right Teachers En