Transcript: Eco-Challenge, In Search of Sleep | Mar 28, 2001

The title “More to family” appears inside the shape of a house.

The opening sequence shows a wooden table with a small lit candle as several words fly by: Relationships, education, caregivers, home and family.
Fast clips show different sets of hands performing activities on the table such as drawing a big red heart, tuning a violin, flipping through the pages of a book, cooking, and pouring a glass of red wine.
In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: “More to life.”

Karen Horsman sits in a studio with yellow walls and a carved board that reads “More to life” in the background.

Karen is in her late thirties, with short wavy brown hair. She wears a green blouse and a blue blazer.

She says HELLO, I'M KAREN HORSMAN
FOR MAUREEN TAYLOR, LATER ON
THE SHOW WE WILL PROFILE TWO
INCREDIBLE ATHLETES, SOME
SAY CRAZY BUT INCREDIBLE
ATHLETES THAT TOOK PART IN
THE ECO-CHALLENGE IN BORNEO,
BUT FIRST, ANY NEW PARENT
WHO TELLS YOU THAT HER EIGHT
WEEK OLD IS SLEEPING THROUGH
THE NIGHT IS EITHER LYING OR
HAS A VERY WITH DEFINITION
OF SLEEPING THROUGH THE
NIGHT.
BUT EVEN KIDS WHO ARE WEANED
AND WELL INTO THEIR TODDLER
YEARS WAKE UP IN THE NIGHT
WHICH MEANS YOU WAKE UP TOO.
ALTHOUGH YOUR CHILD SEEMS TO
BE READY TO THRIVE ON THAT
SCHEDULE, YOUR SLEEP
DEPRIVED SO DON'T WORRY.
WHAT WE BUILD DO IS WE HAVE
ADVICE FOR YOU HERE TODAY
AND SOME SYMPATHY.
BONNIE REICHERT IS A
PARENTING EXPERT AND ALSO A
JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR OF “IN
SEARCH OF SLEEP, STRAIGHT
TALK ABOUT BABY, TODDLERS
AND NIGHT WAKING.”

An image of the book appears on screen. A picture of a sleeping baby illustrates the cover.

Karen says SO IF YOUR
CHILDREN'S SLEEP PATTERNS
ARE DRIVING YOU CRAZY,
MAKING YOU TEAR YOUR HAIR
OUT, HERE IS YOUR
OPPORTUNITY TO GET YOUR
QUESTION ASKED.
CALL US HERE IN TORONTO AT
416-484-2727.
YOU CAN CALL US
LONG-DISTANCE TOLL-FREE,
1-888-411-1234.
OR YOU CAN E-MAIL US AT
“MORE TO LIFE”@TVO.ORG.
WE WILL TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS
ABOUT SLEEP AND CHILDREN.
THANKS FOR COME IN.

A caption reads “Bonny Reichert. In search of sleep.”

Bonny is in her early thirties, with chin length wavy brown hair. She wears a gray skirt and a gray blouse.

She says MY PLEASURE.

Karen says HOW EMOTIONALLY
CHARGED IS THIS ISSUE OF
CHILDREN AND SLEEP.

Bonny says IT VERY EMOTIONALLY
CHARGED.
IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE
WHAT IT BASICALLY IS A
PRACTICAL PROBLEM.
YOUR CHILD DOESN'T SLEEP
THROUGH THE NIGHT, YOU ARE
EXHAUSTED, THOSE ARE
PRACTICAL YESES -- ISSUES
AND YET FOR SOME REASON IT
IS SO MUCH MORE THAN
PRACTICAL, IT IS EMOTIONAL
AND THERE IS SOME MORAL
UNDERTONES, SOME
INTERGENERATIONAL THINGS,
SOME CULTURAL THINGS.

Karen says WHAT DO YOU THINK IS
MEANT BY SLEEPING THROUGH
THE NIGHT, THAT OFT HEARD
PHRASE.

Bonny says DIFFERENT PEOPLE DO HAVE
DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS.
I THINK THEY SAY WITH LITTLE
BABIES SO TALKING ABOUT SIX
MONTHS OLD SLEEPING THROUGH
THE NIGHT IS SIX OR SEVEN
HOURS.
SOME PEOPLE THOUGH IT IS
AMAZING YOU KNOW, I WAS AT A
FORUM AT TODAY'S PARENT.COM
SAYS MY CHILD DOESN'T SLEEP
THROUGH THE NIGHT, HE ONLY
LEAPS -- SLEEPS EIGHT HOUR,
I THOUSAND MY GOD WHAT I
WOULD HAVE DONE FOR EIGHT
HOURS IF I HAD A BABY.
IT MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS
FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

Karen says WE ARE OBSESSED WITH THIS
I JUST HAD A BABY AND
EVERYBODY IS ASKING ME IS HE
SLEEPING THROUGH THE NIGHT.
IT IS AFTER HOW HE IS DOING
IT IS THE SECOND MOST ASKED
QUESTION.
ASK IT AN OBSESSION WITH
SLEEP.

Bonny says I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS AN
OBSESSION WITH SLEEP.
IT HAS SOMEHOW BECOME A
MEASURE OF YOUR COMPETENCE
AS A PARENT OR QUITE
COMMONLY AND THIS S I TOUCH
ON THIS IN THE BOOK, WHETHER
YOUR CHILD IS GOOD.
WE SEEM TO EQUATE GOOD AND
EASY AND SLEEPY ALL IN ONE
PACKAGE.
BUT OF COURSE SLEEPING A LOT
AND BEING GOOD ARE TWO
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Karen says YOU DO MENTION IN YOUR
BOOK ABOUT HOW SOMEONE ASKED
YOU ABOUT YOUR SON, IF HE
WAS A GOOD BABY.
AND YOU WEREN'T SURE ON HOW
TO ANSWER THAT.
AND WE ALL OFTEN ASKED IF
OUR BABIES ARE GOOD.
WHAT -- DO YOU THINK PEOPLE
MEAN BY THAT, THAT THEY
BEHAVE.

Bonny says THEY MEAN EASY.
I THINK THEY MEAN EASY.
A GOOD BABY IS ONE WHO
SLEEPS THROUGH THE NIGHT AND
DOESN'T CRY TOO MUCH AND
DOESN'T DEMAND TOO MUCH OF
YOUR ATTENTION.
BUT I PUT THIS QUESTION
FORWARD IN THE BOOK STILL
DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW CAN A
BABY BE BAD.
IT IS A BABY, HOW CAN A BABY
BE BAD.
THEY ARE ALL GOOD.

Karen says DO WE SAY COLIC MEANS BAD
BABY AND A SLEEPER WHO ONE
THAT DOES THE TRADITIONAL 18
TO 20 HOURS IN THEIR FIRST
FEW WEEKS IS GOOD.
I THINK THAT IS HOW WE
DEFINE IT.

Bonny says I THINK WHAT WE REALLY
MEAN IS EASY OR NOT EASY,
MORE CHALLENGING, MORE
DIFFICULT, MORE DEMANDING
BUT NOT, NOT GOOD.

Karen says LET'S LOOK AT THOSE MYTHS
THEN.
WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SLEEP
MYTHS.
WE WILL START WITH OUR YOUNG
BABIES.

Bonny says I THINK A HUGE ONE IS
THAT BABIES SHOULD SLEEP
THROUGH THE NIGHT BY THE
TIME THEY ARE FOUR, SIX
MONTHS, CERTAINLY NOT OLDER
THAN THAT, THAT IS THE MYTH.
AND THE REASON THAT PARENTS
ARE SO DESPERATE FOR ADVICE,
WELL, FIRST OF ALL BECAUSE
THEY ARE VERY TIRED BUT ALSO
BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS SENSE
THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
WRONG WITH THEIR BABY
BECAUSE THERE IS THIS IDEA
THAT SIX MONTHS OLD, SLEEPS
THROUGH THE NIGHT.
SIX MONTHS OLD DON'T
GENERALLY SLEEP THROUGH THE
NIGHT.
IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE STANDARD
TO LIVE UP TO.
DOESN'T MEAN THAT SOME
DON'T.
SOME DO.
AND THOSE PARENTS HEY, YOU
ARE LUCKY.
BUT IT IS NOT A FAIR
STANDARD.

Karen says IS THERE A DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN BOTTLE FED AND
BREAST FED.

Bonny says YEAH, BREAST FED BABIES
DO SEEM TO WAKE UP MORE.
BREAST MILK IS NOT AS HEAVY
AS FORMULA AND SO YOU KNOW,
IT IS LIGHTER AND THE BABY
GOING TO GET HUNGRY SOONER
AND THERE IS THE PHYSICAL
RELATIONSHIP, MAYBE THE BABY
IS WAKING UP FOR SOME OF
THAT PHYSICAL INTERACTION
TOO.

Karen says DO YOU THINK
PAEDIATRICIANS OR GPs
PERPETUATE MYTHS.

Bonny says WELL, IT IS TRICKY THING
TO GENERALIZE BUT I THINK
THAT WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS
THAT PAEDIATRICIANS TURN TO
SLEEP EXPERTS TO PASS ON
ADVICE TO PARENTS.
AND THE SLEEP EXPERTS ARE
VERY BIG ON, AND WHEN I IS
THAT MEAN -- ARE VERY BIG ON,
YOU KNOW, YOUR CHILD SHOULD
SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT AND
YOU KNOW, IF YOUR CHILD
DOESN'T, HERE IS THE
SOLUTION AND IT IS A ONE
SIZE FITS ALL.
AND SO THAT IS HOW WE ALL
GET THE ATTITUDE THAT IT IS
EASY TO MAKE YOUR CHILD
SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT AND
MOST KIDS SHOULD.

Karen says YOU BROUGHT UP
DOCTOR RICHARD FERBER ALSO
KNOWN AS FERBERIZING YOUR
BABY AND COINED SLEEP
TRAINING.
LET'S GET INTO HIS METHOD IT
IS THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL.

Bonny says IT HAS A REALLY FIRM
GRASP ON OUR CULTURE IT
REALLY HOOKED IN.
AND I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY
BECAUSE IT IS SIMPLE.
IT IS EASY TO FOLLOW, IT'S
SIMPLE.
AND IT SEEMS ALMOST LIKE YOU
JUST FOLLOW STEPS ONE, TWO,
THREE AND IT IS SOLVED.
AND WHEN ARE YOU VERY TIRED
YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT IS
EASY TO FOLLOW, SIMPLE AND
WORKS.
BUT THE CATCH IS THAT IT IS
SO SIMPLE THAT IT DOESN'T
RECOGNIZE THAT BABIES ARE
DIFFERENT PRESIDENTS ARE
DIFFERENT, SITUATIONS ARE
DIFFERENT, AND IT WON'T WORK
FOR EVERYBODY.

Karen says NOW THIS IS THE VERY
FUNDAMENTAL ADVICE THAT YOU
LET YOUR BABY CRY FOR FIVE
TO TEN MINUTE INTERVALS AND
OVER THE MAGIC THREE NIGHTS
YOU EXTEND THAT PERIOD OF
CRYING.
AND HE IS VERY ADAMANT ABOUT
IT ONLY TAKING THREE NIGHTS
TO SEVEN MAX AND THAT THE
CHILDREN LEARN TO FALL
ASLEEP ON THEIR OWN.

Bonny says YEAH.

Karen says SOME PARENTS
FUNDAMENTALLY HAVE THE
PROBLEM WITH LEAVING THEIR
BABY TO CRY.
THIS GETS TO THE CORE OF
THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT
WHETHER A CHILD CAN SLEEP
THROUGH THE NIGHT BECAUSE
PARENTS, MANY, REFUSE TO LET
THEM CRY.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT
THAT.

Bonny says WELL, I SEE THERE ARE TWO
PROBLEMS WITH FERBER, TWO
GENERAL AND THEY GET MORE
SPECIFIC.
ONE IS THAT IT DOESN'T WORK,
AS YOU ARE SAYING, ON A
PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL.
IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN'T
SAY A METHOD WORKS IF A
PARENT CAN'T DO IT.
RIGHT.
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THAT
PARENT WERE TO DID IT AND
YES, IT WORKS IN THE WAY
THAT THREE NIGHTS THE BABY
IS SLEEPING THROUGH THE
NIGHT IF THE PARENT IS SICK
ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.
IF THE PARENT IS GOING TO UP
MANY NIGHTS AFTER THAT
SAYING OH MY GOD WHAT DID I
DO, THAT METHOD DOES NOT
WORK.
SO THAT IS ONE THING.
THE OTHER IS DOES IT WORK IN
THREE NIGHTS, IN FIVE NIGHTS,
SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I
INTERVIEWED FOR THE BOOK
TALKED ABOUT HOW THEY
FERBERIZED THEIR CHILD AND
EVERYTHING WAS FINE UNTIL
THE CHILD GOT AN EAR
INFECTION, AN ASTHMA ATTACK,
TRAVELED, TEETHING.
SO THAT IS NOT WORK, IF YOU
HAVE TO DO IT OVER AND OVER
AGAIN THAN THAT IS NOT THREE
NIGHTS.
SO THOSE ARE SORT OF THE TWO
BASIC WAYS THAT IT -- DOES

Karen says AND IS THE PARENT MEAN IN THE SENSE
OF GUILT THAT SOCIETY LOOKS
AT YOU, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO
ARE NOT IN THE WESTERN
CULTURE OF THIS IDEA OF
TEACHING INDEPENDENCE, THEY
HAVE BEEN LABELED AS MEAN
FOR ALLOWING A CHILD TO CRY.

Bonny says I DON'T THINK IT IS MEAN
AT ALL I THINK YOU HAVE TO
FIND THE SOLUTION THAT IS
COMFORTABLE TO YOU.
IT IS HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO
YOU TO GET YOUR CHILD TO
SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH
USING FERBER'S METHOD.
MAY OBJECTION COMES IN THIS
FERBER PRESENTING IT AS
SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK FOR
EVERYBODY THE SAME WAY.
BUT YOU KNOW, I CONGRATULATE
ANY PARENT WHO USED FERBER
AND FOUND THAT IT WORKS,
GREAT.

Karen says AND BOTH PARENTS HAVE TO
BE ON THE SAME PAGE ABOUT IT
I HEAR BECAUSE IF ONE LIKES
THE IDEA OF FERBER AND THE
OTHER DOESN'T, THAN THEY
WILL BE A FIGHT IN THE
MIDDLE OF THE NATURE AT 2:00
A.M..
NO, NO, I'M LETTING HIM
SLEEP AND THERE IS A
CONFLICT WITH THE PARENTS.

Bonny says YOU GET STRESSED OUT AND
YOU GET HOT UNDER THE COLLAR
ALREADY.
AND THAN ON TOP, YOU KNOW,
YOUR NERVES ARE VERY TIGHT
AND THAN ON TOP OF IT IF YOU
ARE DISAGREEING IT IS VERY,
VERY DIFFICULT.
JUST LIKE IF YOU DISAGREE
ABOUT WHETHER IT IS OKAY TO
BRING YOUR BABY INTO BED
WITH YOU.
YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE
PROBLEMS.

Karen says WE WILL GET INTO THAT IN
A MOMENT.
WANT TO MENTION TO YOU YOU
CAN CALL US WITH YOUR
QUESTIONS ABOUT SLEEPING AND
YOUR CHILDREN.
AND OUR GUEST IS BONNIE
REICHERT.
OUR PHONE NUMBER IN TORONTO
416-484-2727.
LONG DISTANCE IS
1-888-411-1234.
OR YOU CAN E-MAIL US AT
“MORE TO LIFE” @TVO.ORG,
HELPING YOU WITH ONE OF
THOSE DIFFICULT PARENTING
CHALLENGES, SLEEP AND YOUR
CHILDREN, LET'S START OFF
WITH A CALL FROM TORONTO.

Negeen says HOW ARE YOU TODAY.

Karen says GREAT THANKS.

Negeen says MY QUESTION IS MY BABY, IF I
PUT HER TO NAP IN THE
AFTERNOON IN THE CRIP SHE
SLEEPS FINE.
BUT DURING THE NATURE SHE
REFUSES TO GO INTO THE CRIB.
AND I HAVE TO MAKE HER SLEEP
IN THE BED WITH US.
AND IT IS KIND OF GETTING
BETWEEN ME AND MY HUSBAND
BECAUSE SHE IS NOW -- SHE
DOESN'T WANT TO GO INTO THE
CRIB AT ALL.
I DID TRY THE FERBER METHOD
BY LETTING HER CRY BUT IN
THE END IT WAS MY -- IT IS
LIKE YOU SAID, THAT MY
HUSBAND DISAGREED AND SAID
LOOK, MY HAD IS GETTING
DISRUPTED PLEASE PUT HER IN
THE BED T IS BETTER SHE
SLEEPS HERE RATHER THAN WE
ALL GETTING OUR SLEEP
DISTURBED.

Karen says HOW OLD IS THE BABY.

Negeen says SHE IS ALMOST GOING TO
GET TO TWO YEARS.

Bonny says OKAY.
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK
YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHY YOU
DON'T WANT THE BABY IN THE
BED.
SO IS IT BECAUSE IT IS
CERTIFICATE FEARING WITH
YOUR SORT OF COUPLE TIME, IS
THAT SORT OF WHAT IT IS.

Negeen says YES, THAT IS WHAT IT IS
BASICALLY.

Bonny says WELL, IF YOU DON'T HAVE
OTHER OBJECTIONS TO HAVING
HER THERE AND YOUR HUSBAND
THINKS THAT THAT IS A GOOD
IDEA, YOU COULD LOOK FOR
OTHER WAYS TO SPEND COUPLE
TIME.
ANOTHER THING WOULD BE TO
MAKE YOUR DAUGHTER, IT IS IT
A LITTLE GIRL.

Negeen says YES, A LITTLE GIRL.

Bonny says TO MAKE HER ROOM MORE
ENTICING TO HER.
HOW DO YOU PUT HER DOWN TO
SLEEP AT NIGHT.

Negeen says I JUST NORMALLY WHAT I DO
IS WE BOTH I PUT HER IN MY
BED BECAUSE SHE REFUSES TO
HAD IN CRIB, I SWITCH OFF
THE LIGHTS AND SHE IS OFF IN
TWO MINUTE, I DON'T HAVE TO
SING, ANYTHING, NOTHING SHE
SLEEPS BUT SHE SCARED.
SHE KEEPS OPENING HER EYE,
AFTER A WHILE, I HAVE TO
WAIT FOR 15 MINUTES BEFORE I
CAN GET OUT OF THE ROOM
BECAUSE SHE MAKES SURE I'M
STILL THERE.

Bonny says SHE IS AFRAID ARE YOU
GOING TO LEAVE AS SOON AS
SHE CLOSES HER EYES.

Negeen says AND IF SHE SEES ME LEAVING
AND SHE HAS JUST WOKEN UP
AND SEES ME LEAVING SHE
STARTS CRYING AND THE WHOLE
NIGHT SHE KEEPS CRYING
BECAUSE SHE HAS THAT FEAR
THAT I'M GOING TO LEAVE HER
SO I HAVE TO MAKE HER SLEEP
IN MY BED.

Bonny says I THINK IF YOU REALLY
WANT TO GET HER INTO HER OWN
CRIB AT BEDTIME, I THINK SHE
IS OLD ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN
MAKE IT ALMOST LIKE A
PROGRAMME.
HERE IS WHAT -- YOU KNOW, IN
A VERY KIND OF DIRECT WAY
HERE IS WHAT WE ARE GOING TO
DO.
YOU ARE A BIG GIRL NOW.
LET'S GET A NEW SET OF
SHEETS OR A NEW WALL HANGING
OR SOMETHING TO MAKE HER
BEDROOM MORE ENTICING TO HER
AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO JUST
ADDRESS IT HEAD ON, YOU KNOW,
WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A
BIG WE ARE GOING TO GET YOU
NEW BOOKS AND I WILL STAY
WITH YOU UNTIL YOU FALL
ASLEEP.
OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT WANT TO
JUST LOOK AT IF IT IS NOT
REALLY SO BAD TO HAVE HER IN
YOUR BED LOOK FOR OTHER WAYS
TO SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH
YOUR HUSBAND AND GO WITH THE
FLOW A LITTLE LONGER.

Karen says I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AT A
COUPLE THINGS SHE BROUGHT
UP.
LET'S TALK FIRST ABOUT
TRYING THAT NEW ROUTINE, THE
WALL HANGING, NEW BOOKS, THE
SHEETS, IF THAT IS NOT
WORKING, IS IT BECAUSE IT
GOES BEYOND THAT IN TERMS OF
THE BOND THAT IS HAPPENING,
PART OF IT IS ROUTINE, GAME
PLAYING, WHAT THE CHILD
WANTS.
SHE KNOWS THAT SHE IS IN
CONTROL, THESE ARE WHAT THE
EXPERTS TELL US TO WATCH FOR,
WHO IS IN CONTROL, THE CHILD
OR THE PARENT.
AND THE PARENT HAS TO PUT
THE FOOT DOWN SO THAT YOU
ASSERT YOUR AUTHORITY AND
SAY LOOK THIS IS THE WAY
BEDTIME IS GOING TO BE.

Bonny says I'M MORE COMFORTABLE WITH
TALKING ABOUT THAT AND WHO
IS IN CONTROL AND WHO IS THE
BOSS WITH A CHILD THAT IS
CLOSER TO TWO THAN WITH A
CHILD THAT IS SIX MONTHS.
SO TO A CERTAIN EXTENT YEAH,
I GO SO I MEAN IF, YOU KNOW,
IF A PARENT MAKES UP HER
MIND THAT THE CHILD IS GOING
TO SLEEP IN HER OWN BED AND
SORT OF, YOU KNOW, MAKE THE
EFFORT TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO
THE CHILD THAT THIS IS WHAT
IS HAPPENING, THAN THE CHILD
ISN'T GOING TO SENSE THAT
THERE IS AN OPENING THERE TO
GET IN THERE AND DECIDE.
BUT I AM REALLY
UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN PEOPLE
TALK ABOUT THAT WITH LITTLE
KIDS.
BUT THIS IS ALMOST TWO, I
HAVE A TWO AND A
HALF-YEAR-OLD AND I KNOW
THAT HE KNOWS HOW TO -- HE
KNOWS WHEN I'M NOT QUITE
CLEAR SURE ON HOW TO WORK
IT.

Karen says I HAVE A TWO AND A
HALF-YEAR-OLD TOO SO WE ARE
IN THE SAME BOAT HERE, AND
YOU KNOW THAT THAT I BELIEVE
AGE IS ABOUT TESTING
BOUNDARIES.
LOCKING AT WHERE YOUR
RELATIONSHIP IS WITH YOUR
PARENTS.
SEE HOW FAR YOU CAN PUSH
THEM, SOMETHING AS EMOTIONAL
AS BEDTIME AND THE CRYING
AND SCENE IS VERY EASY TO
GIVE IN.
BUT IF ONE PUTS THEIR FOOT
DOWN, IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED
THAT THAT CAN PUT AN END TO
THAT.

Bonny says THAT IS WHY I SAY MEET IT
HEAD ON.
WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS NOT
SO MUCH HEAVY DOUBT DID
PRINCIPLE BUT JUST HEY, ARE
YOU BIG, ARE YOU GOING TO GO
TO SLEEP IN YOUR OWN BED
NOW.
I WILL BE WITH YOU TO HELP
YOU DO IT, WHAT DO YOU NEED,
IS IT NEW PYJAMAS, IS IT
WONDERFUL BOOKS, DO YOU WANT
ME TO LIE, MAYBE IT IS TIME
FOR A BED AND THE MATTRESS
GOES ON THE FLOOR AND MUM OR
DAD LIES DOWN WITH THE
LITTLE GIRL AND THEY GO TO
SLEEP TOGETHER LIKE THAT BUT
IN HER OWN ROOM.

Karen says FERBER WOULD HAVE A FIT
IF HE HEARD THAT.

Bonny says YEAH.

Karen says THE CHILD IN THE BED AND
THE IMPACT ON THE
RELATIONSHIP OF THE COUPLE,
CAN IT INTERVIEW WITH SEX
LIFE.

Bonny says SURE, IT CAN, OR IT
CANNOT.
I MEAN YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A
THING THAT AS SOON AS YOUR
LET YOUR CHILD INTO BED IT
INTERFERES WITH YOUR
MARRIAGE AND SEX LIFE, IT
DOESN'T NECESSARILY.
A BED AND SLEEPING ARE NO
MORE LINKED TO SEX THAN A
CAR OR A FLOOR OR A COUCH IT
IS JUST THAT IS JUST WHAT
OUR CONVENTION IS IN OUR
CULTURE.
SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND IT IS
REQUEST CHILD IN BED AND YOU
ARE SAYING GOD, I NEVER HAVE
ANY PRIVATE TIME WITH MY
PARTNER AND I DON'T LIKE
SLEEPING LIKE THIS, THAN YOU
DON'T HAVE TO DO IT.

Karen says LET'S GO TO MICHELLE
CALLING FROM SUDBURY WITH
THE NEXT QUESTION.
HI, MICHELLE.

Michelle says HI.
MY -- IT IS NOT REGARDING AN
INFANT T IS REGARDING A
CHILD, SEVEN YEARS OLD.
SHE DOESN'T SLEEP WELL AT
NIGHT AT ALL.
WE'VE TRIED MANY THINGS.
WE HAVE RUBBED HER BACK, WE
READ STORIES, WE EVEN GOT A
NEW BED, SHE -- WE HAVE TO
PUT A LIGHT IN HER ROOM AT
NIGHT.
YOU KNOW, WE'VE TRIED
EVERYTHING WITH HER.
AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOU
HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS.

Bonny says WHAT EXACTLY, WHEN YOU
SAY SHE DOESN'T SLEEP WELL
AT NIGHT, WHAT EXACTLY ARE
THE PROBLEMS.

Michelle says WELL, LIKE WE PUT -- I
HAVE TWO CHILDREN WE PUT
THEM DOWN AT 8:00.
AND THEY HAVE QUIET TIME FOR
ABOUT A HALF AN HOUR.
AND THAN THEY GO INTO THEIR
BEDS AND THEY READ A STORY.
SHE JUST HAS DIFFICULTIES
FALL ASLEEP.
AND SHE IS ALWAYS AFRAID OF
SOMETHING.

Bonny says WELL, THAT IS HER
TEMPERAMENT THAT YOU ARE
SEEING THERE.
IS SHE A LITTLE BIT MORE
HIGH STRUNG THAN AVERAGE
DURING THE DAY TOO.

Michelle says NO, NOT REALLY.

Karen says JUST THE NIGHT FEARS,
MICHELLE, THAT YOU THINK IS
THE ISSUE HERE, THAT IF
THERE IS SOMETHING THAT SHE
IS AFRAID OF THAT SHE
DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO SLEEP.

Michelle says WELL, YEAH THERE IS
ALWAYS SOMETHING.
THE DARK, MONSTERS, THERE IS
ALWAYS SOMETHING.

Karen says SO IS THIS ABOUT NIGHT FEARS
THAN.

Bonny says IT SOUNDS LIKE SHE IS
AFRAID.
IT SOUNDS LIKE -- WHEN YOU
FALL ASLEEP AT NIGHT EVEN
FOR US THAT IS SORT OF A
TIME OF DAY WHEN YOU REPLAY
YOUR DAY AND MAYBE YOU WORRY
AND THAT IS WHY ADULTS I
THINK SOMETIMES HAVE TROUBLE
SLEEPING.
AND IT SOUNDS LIKE SHE HAS
JUST GOT A LITTLE BIT OF
THAT.
I WOULD TRY, WHEN SHE GOES
TO SLEEP AT NIGHT ARE YOU
THERE WITH HER.

Michelle says YES, 15 MINUTES OF THAT,
YEAH.
AND WE WAIT, AND SHE WILL
COME DOWN LIKE THREE, FOUR
TIMES.
AND BY THE TIME SHE DOES
FALL ASLEEP IT IS 9:30,
10:00 AT NIGHT SO SHE IS
REALLY TIRED IN THE MORNING
WHEN SHE GOES TO SCHOOL.

Bonny says SO YOU DON'T THINK IT'S
POSSIBLE THAT THAT BEDTIME
IS MAYBE A BIT TOO EARLY FOR
HER.

Michelle says WELL, SHE STAYS UP
ANYWAYS BUT --

Bonny says BUT IF YOU -- WHAT TIME
DOES SHE GET UP IN THE
MORNING.

Michelle says 7:00.

Bonny says, BECAUSE A
SEVEN-YEAR-OLD THAT COULD BE
A LITTLE BIT EARLY AND IT
COULD BE POSSIBLE THAT SHE
IS JUST NOT QUITE READY TO
SLEEP AT THAT TIME.
YOU COULD TRY PUTTING HER TO
BED A LITTLE BIT LATER.
YOU COULD TRY REVERSING YOUR
BEDTIME RITUAL SO THAT
INSTEAD OF HER, YOU SPENDING
TIME WITH HER AND THAN
HER -- YOU LEAVING AND HER
BEING TO -- DOING THE REST
BY HERSELF THAT SHE SPENDS
HER INDIVIDUAL TIME FIRST
THAN YOU COME UP AND STAY
ABOUT HER FOR THE LITTLE BIT
RIGHT BEFORE SHE GOES TO
SLEEP.
THAT MIGHT GIVE HER A LITTLE
EXTRA SECURITY.
THE OTHER IDEA I HAD IS THAT
MAYBE SHE COULD KEEP A
JOURNAL AND WRITE DOWN SOME
OF THE THINGS THAT ARE
BOTHERING HER AND MAYBE THAT
WOULD GIVE HER RELEASE.
I KNOW I ALWAYS LIKED TO
PAGE A LIST OF THE THINGS ON
MY MIND IF I'M REALLY
UPTIGHT.

Karen says HOW MUCH IS IT A
POSSIBILITY THAT WITH THE
DELAY TACTICS THAT CHILDREN
INCORPORATE SO THAT IT
DOESN'T BECOME THE STRUGGLE
BETWEEN CHILD AND PARENT, I
WANT A GLASS OF WATER, I
WANT THIS I WANT TO TALK TO
YOU ABOUT THIS, AND REALLY
WHAT IT IS A ABOUT IS THE
CHILD AVOID GOING TO BED.

Bonny says WELL, BECAUSE WE ARE
TALKING ABOUT FEARS AN SHE
SEEMS ANXIOUS, I'M NOT SURE
IT IS A TACTIC, IT MAY BE
BUT IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE
SHE'S JUST NEEDING A LITTLE
BIT OF EXTRA, YOU KNOW,
SECURITY AND A LITTLE EXTRA
REASSURANCE AT BEDTIME.

Karen says WHAT ABOUT THE WATER
THING WITH OTHER KIDS THAT
ARE CONSTANTLY PUTTING OFF.

Bonny says OH, SURE, BUT WE DO THAT
TOO.
I MEAN IT IS HUMAN NATURE,
YOU KNOW, TO PUT OFF
SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T
WANT TO DO.
IT HELPS TO THINK OF IT BUT
THEY ARE SO CRAZY ABOUT YOU
THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO
SEPARATE FROM YOU AT NIGHT.
AND THAN YOU CAN BE FIRM OR
YOU CAN STAY UNTIL THEY FALL
ASLEEP OR DO WHATEVER
APPROACH YOU WANT BUT JUST
KNOW THAT IT IS A GOOD THING.
THEY JUST LOVE YOU.

Karen says WHEN YOU MENTIONED ABOUT
TALK BEING MICHELLE'S
DAUGHTER, HOURS OF SLEEP YOU
ASKED WHAT TIME SHE GOT UP.
ARE THERE AVERAGES WE SHOULD
BE LOOKING AT AGE BY AGE, OR
SIX MONTH OLD SHOULD BE
GETTING THIS MUCH,
SEVEN-YEAR-OLD.

Bonny says IT IS SO HARD TO SAY.
I ALMOST HATE TO DO THAT
BECAUSE I THINK THEN
SOMEBODY MIGHT CONCLUDE OH
MY DAUGHTER IS, YOU KNOW,
GETTING TOO MUCH SLEEP, YOU
KNOW, I'M GIVING HER TOO
MANY OPPORTUNITIES AND MAYBE
SHE IS TIRED BECAUSE KIDS
CAN GET OVERTIRED AND THEY
NEED AM AND GIVE THEM LESS
OR THE REVERSE THAT YOU
EXPECT YOUR CHILD TO SLEEP
MORE AND PUT HER TO BED AND
SHE STAYS UP FOR AN HOUR.
SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL.
BUT 8:00 OR 8:30 FOR A
SEVEN-YEAR-OLD F IS NOT A
TIME OF SLEEP BUT IT WOULD
BE AN AGE WHEN A CHILD MIGHT
START TO NEED LESS AND
SOMETIMES PARENT'S
EXPECTATIONS DON'T KEEP UP
WITH KID'S DEVELOPMENTS.
AND YOU THINK SHE ALWAYS
USED TO SLEEP 12 HOURS AND
ALL OF A SUDDEN ARE YOU
LOOKING AT A SEVEN-YEAR-OLD
IS NOT A FIVE-YEAR-OLD.

Karen says SHE IS REJIGGING HER
INTERNAL CLOCK.
AN E-MAIL, I REALLY LOVE
YOUR SHOW, HOW MUCH SLEEP
KIDS REALLY NEED.

Bonny says THERE WE GO.

Karen says MY SON JUST TURNED THREE
AND SLEEPS FROM 10:00 P.M.
UNTIL 6:00 OR 7:00 A.M..
HE IS HAPPY AND ACTIVE
DURING THE DAY BUT DOES NOT
NAP.
WHEN I TRY TO GET HIM TO BED
EARLIER HE WAKES UP EARLIER,
SOMETIMES 3:00 A.M..
MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY ARE
CONSTANTLY TELLING ME SHOULD
BE IN BED BY 7:00 P.M. BUT I
DON'T LIKE GETTING UP BEFORE
4:00 A.M..
I DON'T BLAME YOU, DAR HAD.
WHAT I CAN DO IS HER
QUESTION.

Bonny says OKAY.
THE FACT THAT HE IS HAPPY
AND FINE IT IS NOT VERY MUCH
SLEEP.
I THINK YOU JUST HAVE A
GO-GETTER.
THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE GOT ON
YOUR HANDS.
IF HE IS NOT MISERABLE, IF
HE IS NOT CONKING OUT IN THE
CAR, IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING
TROUBLE WITH HIM, YOUR HOURS
ARE FINE IT ISN'T VERY MUCH
BUT THAT IS YOUR CHILD.
AND DON'T LET ANYBODY TELL
YOU WHEN HE SHOULD BE GOING
TO BED.
YOU KNOW WHEN HE SHOULD BE
GOING TO BED.

Karen says AND PEOPLE ALWAYS HAVE
OPINIONS.

Bonny says ALWAYS, ALWAYS.
YOUR PARENTS, YOUR FRIENDS.

Karen says LET'S GO TO ROSEMARY WITH
HER QUESTION.
HI.

Rosemary says HI THERE.
I HAVE A 15 WEEK OLD TWIN
GIRLS.

Karen says WOW!.

Rosemary says AND THEY ARE GREAT, THEY
DO SLEEP FOR LONG PERIODS,
IT VARIES THOUGH.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO TRY AND
GET IT AT A TIME WHERE I --
LIKE A REGULAR SCHEDULE SO
THAT I CAN MAKE SURE I'M
GETTING THAT MUCH SLEEP TOO.
SOMETIMES THEY WILL SLEEP
FROM O CLOCK P.M. UNTIL LIKE
11:00 AT NIGHT AND I WOULD
REALLY LIKE THEM TO SLEEP
FROM 12 O CROCK AT NIGHT
UNTIL 6:00 IN THE MORNING,
THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

Karen says THAT IS A NICE WISH, A
GOOD WISH, WHAT DO YOU
THINK.

Bonny says I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT
15 WEEK, THAT IS REALLY
YOUNG.
IT IS VERY HARD TO -- I CAN
IMAGINE HOW EXHAUSTED YOU
MUST BE.
I MEAN I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE
BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER HAD
TWINS.
BUT THAT WOULD BE A
SITUATION WHERE YOU WOULD
DEFINITELY WANT TO GET THEM
ON TO SOME KIND OF ROUTINE
AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BUT THEY
ARE YOUNG.
YOU SAID THEY SLEEP FROM
5:00 TO 09 CLOCK.

Rosemary says 5:00 UNTIL LIKE 11:00 AT
NIGHT.

Bonny says SO THAT IS A NICE
STRETCH.
CAN YOU TRY AND PUT THEM TO
SLEEP A LITTLE BIT LATER
FROM THE 5:00 GRADUALLY MAKE
IT A LITTLE LATER IN MAYBE
HALF HOUR INCREMENTS SO 5:30
AND THEN MAYBE YOU PUSH IT
TO 6 O LOCK OR YOU KNOW, IF
HALF HOW IS TOO BIG PAIN ARE
YOU GOING 15 MINUTE
INCREMENTS, PUSHING THEM
BACK SLOWLY, SLOWLY AND THAN
MAYBE THEY WILL SLEEP LATER
AND LATER INTO THE NIGHT AND
YOU KNOW, AFTER WELL, YOU
HAVE TO WORK OUT THE MATH
BECAUSE I'M NOT GREAT AT
MATH BUT AFTER, YOU KNOW, A
CERTAIN NUMBER OF DAYS THEY
WILL BE GOING TO SLEEP AT
9:00 AND DOING THEIR LONG
STRETCH INTO THE NIGHT.

Karen says AND WITH 15 WEEK OLDS,
EMPHASIZING THAT IS VERY
YOUNG, IS THERE A TIME WHERE
IT IS JUST TOO YOUNG TO BE
FIDDLING WITH THEIR
SCHEDULES, SHOULD YOU JUST
ACCEPT IT UNTIL THEY BET TO
THAT MAGIC THREE MONTHS OR
FOUR MONTHS.

Bonny says I THINK IF YOU ARE
FIDDLING WITH THEIR
SCHEDULES IN SUCH A WAY THAT
ARE YOU MAYBE MAKING --
STRETCHING THEM BETWEEN
FEEDINGS A LITTLE LATER
WITHOUT ACTUALLY LETTING
THEM GET REALLY MISERABLE OR
MISERABLE -- MISERABLE AT
ALL BUT OR THEY ARE TIRED
BUT YOU TRY TO STIMULATE
THEM INSTEAD OF PUTTING THEM
DOWN.
ARE YOU NOT GOING TO HURT
THEM BY DOING THAT.
IT IS SORT OF DEBATABLE
WHETHER IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO
START SLEEP TRAINING THAT
YOUNG.

Karen says BECAUSE RICHARD FERBER
SAYS THAT FOUR MONTHS IS THE
EARLIEST, THAT THEY ARE
SIMPLY TOO YOUNG AND TO LET
THEM CRY LIKE THAT ON THEIR
OWN IS TOO MUCH OF A SHOCK.

Bonny says WHAT IF YOU LET THEM CRY
AND THEY ARE REALLY HUNGRY,
AND IT GOES ON FOR AN HOUR
AND YOU PICK THEM UP AND
THEY ARE RAVENOUS, BECAUSE
THEY ARE NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH
IN THEIR FEEDING SCHEDULES
TO KNOW -- YOU ABSOLUTELY
ARE NOT HUNGRY T IS TIME TO
GO TO SLEEP.

Aren says I WANT TO ASK YOU MORE
ABOUT THE EMOTION AND
POLITICS OF THE DIFFERENT
STYLES.
WE'VE TALKED ABOUT
DOCTOR FERBER AND DOCTOR TERRY
BRAZELLTON, A WELL-KNOWN
EXPERT.
THE TWO OF THEM HAVE VERY
LIKE OPINIONS.
ON THE OTHER SIDE IS
DR. WILLIAM SEARS AND
PENELOPE LEACH AND BARBARA
COLOROSO WHO HAS BEEN ON
THIS SHOW, THOSE THREE INTO
ATTACHMENT PARENTING OR
BRINGING THEM INTO THE BED
OR FOR THE MOST PART
PENELOPE LEACH SAY GOES WITH
THEIR NATURE, WITH THEIR
CHARACTER AND SEE WHAT
WORKS.
IF YOU GO WITH THE MORE
MILITANT SIDE OF THING, IT
HAS BEEN SUGGESTED THAT THAT
TEACHES YOUR CHILD
INDEPENDENCE, IT TEACHES
THEM TO BE MORE HEALTHY, AND
TO BE MORE INDIVIDUALISTIC.
THAT IS A LOT OF PRESSURE
FOR A PARENT WHEN YOU ARE
STARTING EARLY OFF ON
SOMETHING LIKE SLEEP.

Bonny says HUGE, HUGE.
IT IS ALMOST LIKE THAT GOOD
BABY THING IT IS LIKE YOU
KNOW, YOU ARE GOING TO SHAPE
YOUR CHILD'S CHARACTER FROM
HOW YOU HANDLE SLEEP.
I DON'T BUY IT FOR A MINUTE.

Karen says BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE THE
CRITICS SAY THAT PENELOPE
LEACHES AND ESPECIALLY
WILLIAM SEARS BECAUSE HE IS
SO PRO THE CHILD IN THE BED
THAT ARE YOU TEACHING THEM
DEPENDENCE ON THE PARENT,
THAT YOU ARE SPOILING THEM,
YOU ARE INDULGING THEM AND
NOT TEACHING THEY WILL TO BE
THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND IN A
SENSE YOU ARE BEING SELFISH
BECAUSE YOU ARE KEEPING
YOUR CHILD TO YOURSELF
INSTEAD OF TEACHING THEM TO
BE A PERSON.

Bonny says THAT SELFISH ONE DRIVES
ME CRAZY, THAT IT IS SELFISH
TO RESPONSIVE PARENT.
IT IS JUST CRAZY, IT DOESN'T
MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.
THAT IT IS SELFISH TO, YOU
KNOW, SHARE YOUR BED WITH
YOUR CHILD.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS
SELFISH NOT TO.
OKAY.
LIKE THERE ARE SO MANY
JUDGMENTS.
YOU ARE THIS, YOU ARE THIS,
ARE YOU THIS.
YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT IS
YOUR CHILDLIKE, YOU KNOW, IF
YOUR CHILD IS ADAPTS EASILY
AND IS FAIRLY MELLOW THAN
SLEEP TRAINING MIGHT BE A
BREEZE.
SOMEBODY WHO, I INTERVIEWED
FOR THE BOOK DID IT TWICE
AND THAN THE CHILD SLEPT
THROUGH THE NIGHT AND THAT
WAS THE END OF IT.

Karen says THINKING ABOUT TWO HOUR
LABOURS TOO.

Bonny says YOU'VE GOT ONE OF THOSE.
AND THAN SLEEP TRAINING IS A
BREEZE.
SO YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THAT.
YOU NEED TO LOOK AT YOUR OWN
TEMPERAMENT, WHAT WOULD YOU
PREFER, IS IT SO AWFUL TO
YOU TO ARE YOUR CHILD IN BED
BECAUSE YOU JUST CAN'T SLEEP
WITH A KID IN YOUR BED
BECAUSE ARE YOU AFRAID WILL
YOU ROLL ON TO THEM,
WHATEVER.
IS IT SO, YOU KNOW S THAT
SO -- SO IT BETTER TO HAVE
YOUR CHILD LEARN TO SLEEP IN
HIS CRIB, GREAT, GO FOR IT.
BUT IS IT GOING TO BE -- ON
THE OTHER HAND IS THE SLEEP
TRAINING GOING TO BE SO
STRESSFUL THAT YOU ARE GOING
TO BE ALL, YOU KNOW, SHAKY
AND UP SET LONG AFTER THE
CHILD FALL AS SLEEP, WELL
THAN THAT IS 23409 GOING TO
WORK FOR YOU.
NOW GETTING INTO THE
INDEPENDENCE THING.
I INTERVIEWED SOMEBODY
NAMED JAMES McKENNA A DOCTOR
OUT OF THE U.S., A SLEEP
RESEARCHER, NOT A DOCTOR AND
HE HAS DONE SOME INCREDIBLE
RESEARCH AND HE TALKS ABOUT
RESEARCH DONE OUT OF THE
U.K. THAT SHOWED THAT KIDS
WHO SLEPT IN THEIR PARENT'S
BEDS WERE NO MORE LIKELY TO
BE DEPENDENT LATER IN LIFE
AND IN FACT SEEMED TO BE
BETTER ADJUSTED AND HAD
GREATER SELF-ESTEEM.
NOW I WOULDN'T GO SO FAR AS
TO SAY YOU NEED TO BRING
YOUR CHILD INTO BED BECAUSE
THEY WILL HAVE GREATER
SELF-ESTEEM BECAUSE I THINK
THAT AIRING ON THE OTHER
SIDE BUT I DON'T THIS THIS
IS ANY WORRY.
THE FIRST THREE YEARS ARE
ARE NOT LIKE ANY OTHER TIME
IN CHILDHOOD AND I THINK WE
WORRY THAT IF YOUR BABY IS
DEPENDENT AT ONE, OH MY GOD
WHAT WILL HE BE LIKE AT TEN
IT IS NOT THE SAME.
TEN YEARS OLD DON’T THE SAME
THINGS AS ONE YEAR OLDS.
THERE IS A DEVELOPMENTAL
CURVE THERE.
IT DOESN'T JUST GET WORSE OR
MORE.
THEY WANT IT TO LEAVE YOU
BEHIND.
THEY WANT TO SAY GOOD-BYE,
BELIEVE ME MY TEN-YEAR-OLD
DOES NOT ACT LIKE MY
TWO-YEAR-OLD.

Karen says IT DOESN'T GET WORSE,
JUST DIFFERENT.

Bonny says AND BETTER!

Karen says AND I WANT TO BRING
DEBBIE IN.

Debbie says MY QUESTION IS, IS I HAVE AN
OLDER CHILD AND HE IS GOING
TO BE 12 NEXT MONTH.
AND RIGHT FROM DAY ONE AS
SOON AS HE GOT OUT OF HIS
CRIB HE WAS SLEEPING IN OUR
BED.

Karen says HE STILL DOES?

Debbie says FINALLY WHEN HIS YOUNGER
BROTHER CAME OUT OF HIS CRIB
I HAD THE TWO OF THEM
SLEEPING IN MY BED AND
FINALLY WE SAID THAT THAT
WAS IT.
SO WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOW
THEY -- THE YOUNGER ONE GOES
TO BED BUT THE OLDER ONE, HE
GOES TO BED AND HE FALL AS
SLEEP, HE HAS NO PROBLEM
FALLING ASLEEP.
ESPECIALLY WHEN MY HUSBAND
IS IN HIS ROOM WITH HIS
BROTHER READING A STORY, HE
FALLS ASLEEP.
THE ONLY THING IS AROUND
2:00, 3:00 IN THE MORNING HE
WAKES UP AND GOES INTO HIS
BROTHER'S ROOM AND SLEEPS
WITH HIM.

Karen says WITH HIS BROTHER.

Debbie says HIS BROTHER IS NINE.

Karen says OKAY.

Debbie says SO THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON
SINCE, YOU KNOW, SINCE DAY
ONE WHEN HE CAME OUT OF A
CRIB.

Bonny says HE LIKES COMPANY.

Debbie says WELL, HE DOESN'T WANT TO
BE BY MY SELL -- HIMSELF.
I THINK HE IS A LITTLE BIT
AFRAID BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO
ABOUT DOWNSTAIRS IN THE
BASEMENT AND STUFF LIKE
THAT.
SO I THINK WHEN HE WAKES UP
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT
AND HE'S BY HIMSELF HE GOES
IN WITH HIS BROTHER.

Karen says SO IT IS IN HIS NATURE.

Bonny says SO IS THAT A PROBLEM WHEN
HE GOES IN WITH HIS BROTHER.

Debbie says WELL, YOU KNOW, I FEEL
GUILTY THAT HIS BROTHER SORT
OF IS GETTING, YOU KNOW, NOT
A VERY GOOD SLEEP BECAUSE
WHEN YOU GO IN THERE ROOM
LIKE THEY ARE SORT OF
INTERTWINED.

Bonny says IS HIS BROTHER, DOES THE
BROTHER COMPLAIN ABOUT T
DOES IT BUG HIM.

Debbie says YOU KNOW WHAT, IT DOESN'T.

Bonny says IT DOESN'T.

Debbie says I DON'T THINK IT BOTHERS
HIM.
HE HAS NEVER SAID ANYTHING.

Bonny says OKAY.
I WOULD ASK YOUR YOUNGER ONE
IF HE MINDS PRIVATELY, FIRST
OF ALL.
IF HE DOESN'T AND DOES THE
YOUNGER ONE HAVE A DOUBLE
BED.

Debbie says HE DOESN'T, BECAUSE WE
KEEP THINKING SHOULD WE GET
BUDGET BEDS, SHOULD WE MAKE
THEM, YOU KNOW, ONE ROOM
TOGETHER.

Bonny says YEAH, WELL, I WHAT FIRST
CHECK WITH -- MAYBE ASK EACH
CHILD INDIVIDUALLY DO YOU --
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF OUR
SLEEP PATTERNS, DO YOU LIKE
IT, DOW HATE IT.
ARE YOU EXHAUSTED, ARE YOU
GETTING ENOUGH SLEEP BECAUSE
THEY ARE BIG, YOUR KIDS ARE
BIG ENOUGH TO DISCUSS IT
WITH YOU.
AND IF YOU SEE NO PROBLEM
THAN YOU MIGHT JUST WANT TO
SLEEVE IT, OKAY.
THAT IS ONE OPTION.
ANOTHER OPTION IS TO SAY
OKAY, YOU GUYS ARE ENJOYING
SLEEPING TOGETHER, AND TO
GET BUDGET BEDS OR TO GET A
DOUBLE BED OR TO BRING YOUR
OLDER SON'S MATTRESS AND PUT
IT ON THE FLOOR AND PUT THEM
BOTH IN THERE AND LET THEM
SHARE A ROOM WHICH, YOU KNOW,
SEEMS VERY NATURAL.

Karen says IN TERMS OF SHARING A BED
UP UNTIL WHENEVER IT BECOMES
UNCOMFORTABLE FOR ONE OF
THEM, ONE OF TELL GET AS
ANNOYED BY IT, BUT INTO THEIR
TEENAGE YEARS THEY COULD BE
BIG STRAPPING BOYS.

Bonny says IT IS SO SWEET.
IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL.
I MEAN I THINK IT IS REALLY
SWEET.
YOU KNOW, I MEAN YEAH, YOU
CAN IMAGINE PEOPLE SAYING OH
MY GOD BUT IT DOESN'T -- I
HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.
I THINK IT IS VERY SWEET AS
LONG AS, YOU KNOW, IF YOUR
YOUNGER ONE IS HATING IT
THAN THAT IS ABOUT DEAL AND
THAN YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS IT
AND SAY YOU KNOW, TAKE THE
OLDER ONE ASIDE AND SAY WHAT
IS IT, WHAT DO YOU NEED TO
FEEL GOOD AND SECURE.
BUT YOU KNOW, SHARING A ROOM
IS NOT THE SAME AS SHARING A
BED EITHER SO THAT IS AN
OPTION EVEN IF THE YOUNGER
ONE ISN'T ENJOYING IT.

Karen says LET'S GO TO TONYA.

Tonya says I WAS CALLING BECAUSE MY
SON HE IS NOW 20 MONTHS,
SHORT VERSION IS HE, I WAS
BREAST-FEEDING HALFWAY,
STILL BREAST-FEEDING ONLY
ONE TIME AT NIGHT BUT I WAS
BREAST-FEEDING HEAVILY, I
HAVE A MILD DISABILITY SO
PUTTING HIM BACK IN THE CRIB
DURING THE NIGHT WAS A
PROBLEM.
SO HE WAS SLEEPING WITH ME
CONSTANTLY AND I MEAN, WE
USED TO JOKE HIS FATHER
SLEEPS IN THE EAST WING AND
I SLEEP IN THE WEST WING.
WE HAVE CONJUGAL VISITS SO
IT IS ALL RIGHT.
HE IS VERY UNDERSTANDING.
AT 20 MONTHS WE PUT HIM IN A
BIG BOY BED BECAUSE CAN
CRAWL OUT OF AND INTO THE
CRIB.
SO WE TOOK THAT OUT.
HE IS IN A BIG BOY BED NOW.
MY PROBLEM NOW, I HAVE
GOTTEN HIM SOME REALLY GOOD
BOOKS, I HAVE GOT HIM TO
SLEEP IN HIS OWN BED, GO TO
BED AT A REGULAR TIME, WE
HAVE GOT OUR SCHEDULES DOWN
IT IS A REALLY GOOD THING.

Bonny says OKAY, CONGRATULATIONS.

Tonya says THANK YOU!

Karen says I BET THERE IS A BUT.

Tonya says IT TOOK LIKE FOUR WEEKS
TO DO IT BUT IT WAS REALLY,
REALLY, LIKE NO SLEEP, I WAS
DYING BUT IT WAS DONE.
SO HERE IS MY PROBLEM NOW.
AFTER A WHILE HE STARTED
GETTING UP IN THE MIDDLE OF
THE NIGHT AND WHEN HE
WAKES UP HE WALKS TO THE
DOOR, OPENS IT, AND WAITS
FOR ME.
HE IS LIKE MOMMY, MOMMY.
CALLS OUT TO ME.
SO BY THE TIME I GET IN
THERE AND PUT HIM BACK TO
BED HE IS ALREADY AWAKE.
SO IT IS A REAL PROBLEM TO
PUT HIM BACK TO SLEEP.
SO I'M JUST WONDERING IF
THERE IS ANYTHING I CAN DO
TO PUT HIM, LIKE GET HIM TO
STOP GETTING OUT OF BED, YOU
KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

Bonny says I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU
MEAN.
Q, YOU DON'T WANT HIM IN
YOUR BED.

Debbie says IT IS NOT A MATTER OF I
DON'T WANT HIM IN MY BED.
I WOULD LOVE IT BUT ASK
CAN'T DO T I CAN'T SLEEP
THAT WAY.
HE IS A REALLY BIG BOY, LIKE
35 POUNDS NOW.
AND HE DOESN'T FIT ME.
I'M SHORT, I'M 5, 3 AND SO
I'M SHORT AND SLEEPING WITH
HIM, HE WANTS TO CUDDLE, HE
WANTS TO JUMP ON ME IT IS
NOT A GOOD THING.

Bonny says OKAY.
WHAT ABOUT MOVING THE
MATTRESS FROM HIS BIG BOY
BED INTO YOUR BEDROOM AND
MAKING HIM A LITTLE NEST IN
YOUR ROOM BUT NOT IN YOUR
BED, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD
WORK?

Tonya says SEE THIS IS THE THING.
HE'S STILL IN MY ROOM.
HE IS IN THE MASTER BEDROOM.

Bonny says OH, HE IS IN YOUR ROOM.

Tonya says HE WE HAVEN'T MOVED HIM
TO HIS RAM AS YET BECAUSE
ANOTHER LITTLE POINT, THE
DAY HE WAS BORN THE SAME DAY
CLOSE OF OUR BRAND-NEW HOUSE
SO WE ARE JUST KIND OF
FINISHING STUFF AND THAT IS
STORAGE RIGHT NOW.
SO WHEN HE WAS IN HIS BIG
BOY BED WE -- I SLEPT IN MY
BED AND ME SLEEPING DURING
THE NIGHT WOULD KEEP HIM UP
SO HE WOULD WAKE UP EVERY TEN SECONDS.

Karen says SO HE’S
STANDING AT THE MATTRESS
CALLING TO YOU.

Tonya says EXACTLY ASSOCIATION
BASICALLY TOOK MY TIME AND
MOVED OUT OF THE ROOM AND
SLEPT IN THE DOWNSTAIRS ON
THE COUCH FOR A LITTLE BIT
AND THAN INTO DADDY'S ROOM.
SO NOW I'M DON'T HAVE TO
HAVE THE CONJUGAL VISITS IT
IS JUST ONCE A NIGHT BUT IT
IS ENOUGH THAT I CAN'T GET
HIM BACK TO SLEEP.

Bonny says SO HE IS IN A ROOM THAT
WAS YOUR BEDROOM AND NOW ARE
YOU SLEEPING WITH YOUR
HUSBAND IN ANOTHER ROOM.

Tonya says RIGHT.

Bonny says OH, BOY.
IF YOU WERE TO SLEEP IN THE
SAME ROOM AS HIM, WHEN HE
WAKES UP AND YOU SAY LACK
I'M RIGHT HERE, YOU KNOW, I
DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GET
OUT OF BED IN THE NIGHT BUT
I'M RIGHT HERE CLOSE TO YOU,
AND YOU COULD VOCALLY SORT
OF GUIDE HIM BACK TO BED.
SO THAT WOULD BE ONE THING
IF ARE YOU IN THE SAME ROOM.
SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY YOU
COULD GET A GATE THAT WOULD
KEEP HIM IN HIS ROOM AM YOU
WOULD TELL HIM BEFORE BED,
YOU KNOW, I COMPETE TO YOU
STAY IN YOUR ROOM.
I LOVE YOU, EVEN THOUGH I'M
NOT WITH YOU, I'M JUST DOWN
THE HALL BUT I WANT YOU TO
STAY IN YOUR ROOM.
YOU COULD TRY THAT.
YOU COULD TRY OTHER KINDS OF
REASONING THINGS, YOU KNOW,
TALK ABOUT WHEN WE GO TO
SLEEP AT NIGHT WE GO DOWN
FOR THE NIGHT AND EVERYBODY,
YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY SLEEPS
AND THAT IS WHAT WE DO AND
NOBODY GETS UP AT NIGHT.
BEYOND THAT, YOU KNOW,
BEYOND LAYING DOWN WITH HIM
OR SHARING A BEDROOM WITH
HIM BUT NOT HAVING HIM IN
YOUR BED, VOCALLY SORT OF
GUIDING HIM THE ONLY OTHER
WAY IS SORT OF THE TOUGH
WAY.

Karen says YOU MENTIONED THE LYING
DOWN WITH HIM A FEW TIMES.
AND THE SUGGESTION WITH THAT
IS THAT THAT CAN LEAD TO, I
GUESS I'M GOING BACK TO A
COUPLE EXPERTS AGAINST THIS
THAT SAY THAT THAT IS
DIFFICULT BECAUSE IF IT
TAKES 15 MINUTE FORCE THE
CHILD TO GET INTO A DEEP
SLEEP AND YOU LEAVE AT THE
13-MINUTE MARK INSTEAD OF
THE 15 MINUTE MARK THE CHILD
WAKES AND IS IT START THE
WHOLE THING ALL OVER AGAIN,
THAT THE ACTUAL PUTTING THE
CHILD TO BED OR IN THE
MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT THAT
THIS COULD DRAG ON FOR 45
MINUTES IF YOU LEAVE AT THE
WRONG TIME.
IS THAT NOT VERY TIME
CONSUMING AND PERHAPS --

Bonny says IT IS EASY, IN THE BOOK I
TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENT
SLEEP STAGES AND YOU CAN
TELL WHEN YOUR CHILD IS IN
DEEP SLEEP IT IS REALLY EASY
TO TELL.
YOU JUST SHIFT A LITTLE AND
IF THEY STIR THAN THEY ARE
NOT -- IT DOESN'T USUALLY
TAKE 15 MINUTES.
AND I DON'T KNOW, I MEAN I
LIE DOWN WITH MY KIDS UNTIL
THEY FALL ASLEEP.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.
I CONSIDER IT A RELAXING
PART OF MY DAY WHEN I
CONNECT WITH THEM.
DOING IT FIVE TIMES A NIGHT
IS NOT GOOD AND NOT WORKING,
NOT GOOD FOR YOU.
IT IS NOT GOING TO HURT YOUR
KID BUT IT IS NOT GOOD FOUR
AND I DON'T -- NOBODY HAS TO
DO IT BUT DON'T, I DON'T
THINK PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL
LIKE THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT IF
IT FEELS ALL RIGHT TO THEM
OR FEELS GOOD TO THEM
BECAUSE GEE, YOU KNOW, THAT
IS IN THE HOW THE EXPERT
SAYS TO DO IT.

Karen says GO WITH YOUR INSTINCTS.
I WANT TO GO WITH PETER
CALLING IN FROM PETERBOROUGH.

Peter says HI.
HOW ARE YOU.

Karen says GREAT THANKS.

Peter says MY QUESTION S MY WIFE AND I
HAVE A 13 MONTH OLD LITTLE
GIRL, ZOE AND SHE SLEEPS
WITH US EVER SINCE SHE WAS
BORN.
I DON'T REALLY HAVE A
PROBLEM WITH IT.
I FIND MYSELF RESTLESS AT
NIGHT WAKING TO CHECKER ALL
THE TIME.
BUT WE ARE SLOWLY TRYING TO
INTRODUCE HER TO HER CRIB.
BUT EVERY TIME WE TRY, WE
PUT HER TO SLEEP AND SHE IS
DEFINITELY IN A DEEP SLEEP,
THE INSTANT SHE TOUCHES THE
CRIB MATTRESS SHE WAKES UP.
WE CAN DO THE SAME THING PUT
HER IN A DEEP SLEEP AND PUT
HER IN OUR BED EVEN IF WE
ARE NOT IN THERE AND SHE
STAY AS SLEEP, NO PROBLEM AT
ALL.

Karen says SHE KNOWS.

Peter says IT IS THE FUNNIEST THING
AND OUR FRIENDS WITH LITTLE
ONES AS WELL HAVE THE SAME
PROBLEM.

Bonny says THE THING ABOUT A CRIB IS
THAT THERE IS QUITE A BIG
DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TIME
THAT YOUR CHILD IS IN
REQUEST ARMS AND THAN THEY
ARE IN MIDAIR MIDAIR AND
THEN THEY HAVE THE SECURITY
OF THE MATTRESS.
AND I THINK THAT IS WHY IT
IS EASIER TO PUT, ASIDE FROM
THE FACT THAT YOUR BED THEY
KNOW IT IS YOUR BED BUT ALSO
IT IS EASIER TO PUT YOUR
CHILD TO BED IN A BIG BED
BECAUSE YOU CAN KEEP YOUR
BODY CLOSE TO THEM AND EVEN
STAY SORT OF ON TOP OF THEM
SAFELY UNTIL THEY ADJUST TO
THE MATTRESS UNDERNEATH.
AND SO THAT SOUNDS, YOU KNOW,
I MEN THAT SOUNDS ABSOLUTELY
TYPICAL TO ME.
AND WELL, I MEAN YOU KNOW
WHAT YOUR CHOICES ARE.
YOU CAN TRY INSTEAD OF
HAVING HER IN YOUR BED OR IN
A CRIB YOU CAN HAVE A
MATTRESS IN YOUR ROOM WHERE
YOU PUT HER AND THEN SHE IS
OVER IN THE CORNER AND YOU
NEED TO MAKE IT SO THAT, YOU
KNOW, IF SHE WERE TO ROLL OFF
SHE WOULDN'T ROLL OFF RIGHT
ON TO THE GROUND.
WOULD YOU HAVE MAYBE A
CARPET OR SOMETHING THAT SHE
WOULD ROLL ON IS HAD
WOULDN'T GET HURT AND THAT
IS ONE WAY.
ANOTHER WAY WOULD BE TO PUT
HER DOWN AND SHE WOULD WAKE
AND WOULD YOU LEAVE AND SHE
WOULD CRY AND WOULD YOU WAIT
AND SEE HOW LONG AND DECIDE
IF MAYBE AFTER A COUPLE OF
NIGHT SHE IS WOULD HAVE GOTTEN
USED TO IT.

Karen says THE SLEEP TRAINING AGAIN.
WHEN PETER WAS TALKING ABOUT
WAKING AND BEING RESTLESS
AND CHECKING FOR HER, I'M
TELLING YOU WITH MY FIRST
CHILD WHEN HE SLEPT WITH US,
BEFORE HE LEFT THE BED AND
WENT INTO HIS CRIB MONTHS
AFTERWARDS WHEN HE MADE THE
TRANSITION TO THE CRIB I
WOKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
NIGHT DOING THIS, REACHING
OVER AND GRABBING A PILLOW
ON MOORE HUSBAND OR ANYONE T
WAS THIS BOTHER'S INSTINCT
TO CONSTANTLY REACH AND
PROTECT AND PULL IN AND I
HAVE TO SAY I NEVER REALLY
SLEPT THAT WELL.
IT WAS ALWAYS A CONCERN
ABOUT THE FEAR OF ROLLING.
AND I KNOW THAT YOU SLEPT
WITH YOUR SON, DO YOU FIND
THAT IT DEPENDS ON THE
PERSON TOO, SOME RELAX MORE
THAN OTHERS WHEN IT COMES TO
THAT?

Bonny says YEAH, I THINK
PROBABLY SOME PEOPLE JUST
NATURALLY WORRY ABOUT IT
MORE.
I'M WORRIED WHEN -- NOW HE
IS TWO AND A HALF SO HE GOES
TO SLEEP IN HIS OWN BED AND
HE IS JUST STARTING TO GO
WHOLE NIGHTS WITHOUT WAKING
UP AND YOU KNOW, I STOPPED
COUNTING AGES AGO, OBVIOUSLY
I HAVE BEEN WRITING THIS
BOOK.
SO IT HAS BEEN VERY
INTERESTING.
BUT VERY OFTEN MORE OFTEN
THAN NOT HE WAKES SOMETIMES
IN THE NIGHT AND OUR ROUTINE
IS HE GOES TO SLEEP IN HIS
OWN BED IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL
AND THAN HE COMES IN THIS
THE NIGHT AND THAT IS IT.
SO GETTING BACK TO YOUR
QUESTION, IF HE IS IN THE
MIDDLE, I DON'T WORRY ABOUT
HIM AT ALL.
SOMETIMES SOMETHING WILL
HAPPEN, MAYBE MY SHOULDER
GETS SORE OR I DON'T KNOW
SOMETIMES WILL WANT TO GO ON
THE END AND SO OBVIOUSLY IF
HE IS ON THE END HE IS TWO
AND A HALF, I SLEEP WITH MY
ARM AROUND HIM AND OF COURSE
I WORRY ABOUT HIM AND I
DON'T SLEEP AS WELL SO I
DON'T LIKE HIM TO SLEEP ON
THE OUTSIDE.
BUT OTHERWISE, I DON'T WORRY,
HE IS LIKE A LITTLE TEDDY
BEAR I DON'T BRING HIM INTO
BED FOR ME, HE WANTS TO
COME.
IN AND PROBABLY YEAH, I
WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE IF
HE WEREN'T THERE.
BUT IT IS NOT GOING TO LAST
VERY LONG AND YOU KNOW, I
JUST DON'T FIND IT A BIG
DEAL.

Karen says A YEAR LATER I'M STILL
GRABBING MY HUSBAND IN THE
NIGHT.
WHETHER OR NOT WHAT I THINK
I GOT FROM YOU IN OUR
DISCUSSION TODAY IS GOING
WITH YOUR INSTINCTS, WHAT
FITS FOR YOU AND DON'T FEEL
THE PRESSURE FROM THE
EXPERTS AND I APPRECIATE
THAT.
THANKS FOR COMING IN.

Bonny says IT WAS MY PLEASURE.

Karen says BONNIE REICHERT, A
JOURNALIST AND THE AUTHOR OF
THE BOOK “IN SEARCH OF SLEEP,
STRAIGHT TALK ABOUT BABY,
TODDLERS AND NIGHT WAKING.”
PUBLISHED BY SARASOTA PRESS.
WILL YOU FIND OUT MORE AT
THE TODAY'S PARENT WEB SITE
AT WWW.TODAYSPARENT.COM AND
IF YOU WANT TO CONNECT WITH
OTHER PARENTS CHECK OUT OUR
SITE AT TVO, WHICH
WWW.TVO.ORG/PARENTBREAK COME
UP A COUPLE CRAZY CANUCKS ON
THE ECO-CHALLENGE.

The shows goes to a commercial break.

Karen says WELCOME BACK, WE WERE
JUST TALKING ABOUT SLEEP AND
CHILDREN.
WELL, SLEEP IS ALSO A
PROBLEM FOR THE PARTICIPANTS
OF THE ECO CHALLENGE ADVENTURE RACE.
GET TOO MUCH AND YOU WILL
NEVER FINISH THE 500 K RACE
THROUGH THE BORNEO JUNGLE,
TOO LITTLE AND YOU WON'T
HAVE ENOUGH ENERGY TO TREK
THROUGH THE LEECH-INFESTED
MUD OR RIDE THOSE RAPIDS OR
PERHAPS CYCLE ON THE DENSE
TRAILS.
A LITTLE MORE OF HALF THE
TEAMS FINISHED AMONG THEM
WERE ONTARIO'S DAVE ZIETSMA
AND YVONNE CAMUS, THEY ARE
HERE TO TELL ABOUT THEIR
EXPERIENCE.
WELCOME TO YOU BOTH, THANKS
FOR COMING IN.
JUST WANTED TO START OFF OF
GIVING A SENSE WHAT THE
ECO-CHALLENGE IS.
WE HAVE A PREVIEW OF
DISCOVERY CHANNEL'S COVERAGE
OF ECO-CHALLENGE.

A clip rolls. Fast clips show images of people engaged in different outdoors activities, such as mountain biking, rock climbing and rafting.

The announcer says THE ECO-CHALLENGE IS THE
ULTIMATE TEST OF PHYSICAL
ENDURANCE AND MENTAL
TOUGHNESS.
A GRINDING NONSTOP
MULTISPORT EXPEDITION IN THE
WILDERNESS, A RACE AGAINST
TIME, A BATTLE AGAINST THE
FORCES OF NATURE, A
RELENTLESS CON TEST THAT
PITS EXPECTS AGAINST EACH
OTHER AND FORCES INDIVIDUALS
INTO BATTLE WITH THEIR OWN
WILL.

Karen says OKAY, WHAT DOES IT TAKE
TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
LET'S START WITH YOU, DAVE,
TO HAVE THAT TYPE OF ENERGY
AND WILL TO PUT YOURSELF
THROUGH IT.

Dave is in his late twenties, clean-shaven and with short curly brown hair. He wears black trousers and a burgundy shirt.

He says I THINK WHAT YOU SAID
THERE IS WHAT IT TAKES.
IT TAKES WILL.
TO ME THE RACE IS SO MUCH
ABOUT PERSEVERANCE AND ABOUT
COMMITMENT TO THE GOAL MORE
THAN IT IS PHYSICAL.
YOU REALLY GET WAY PAST THE
PHYSICAL AND IT IS ALL ABOUT
JUST BEING ABLE TO KEEP
GOING.

Karen says BUT YVONNE THE WAY THEY
PROMOTE THE ECO-CHALLENGE
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN
BORNEO IS ABOUT TORTURE, IS
THAT WHAT IT IS.

The caption changes to “Yvonne Camus. Eco-Challenge participant.”

Yvonne is in her mid-thirties, with shoulder length straight blond hair in a side part. She wears a black power suit and a blue turtleneck sweater.

Yvonne says IT IS -- I REMEMBER WHAT
I SAID TO A GOOD FRIEND OF
MINE I WAS THINKING ABOUT
DOING THE ECO-CHALLENGE.
HE SAID HAVE YOU WATCHED IT,
THEY ARE MISERABLE, THEY ARE
MISERABLE.
IT DIDN'T DETER ME AT ALL.
I THINK THE RACE IS INTENDED
AND IS FULLY DELIVERS ON
BEING DIFFICULT AND
CHALLENGING.
BUT I THINK IF IT WASN'T A
LOT OF THE PEOPLE THERE
WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED.

Karen says LET'S TALK ABOUT THE
RULES AND REQUIREMENTS TO
GET STARTED BEFORE WE GET
INTO SOME OF THE MORE MENTAL
ASPECT.
HOW DOES IT WORK.

The caption changes to “Dave Zietsma. Eco-Challenge participant.”
Dave says WELL, THE WAY IT IS SET
UP IS EACH TEAM MUST HAVE
FOUR PARTICIPANTS, MUST BE
MIXED GENDER SO IT HAS TO
HAVE BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ON
THE TEAM.
AS A TEAM YOU ARE AT THE
START LINE TOGETHER, ONCE
THEY SAY GO IT IS UP TO YOU
TO COVER THE 500 KILOMETRE
RACE COURSE TOGETHER AT ALL
TIMES AT ANY PACE YOU WANT
TO GO.
YOU CAN STOP WHENEVER YOU
WANT OR KEEP GOING STRAIGHT
THROUGH IT IS A COMPLETELY
NONSTOP RACE.
THEY SPECIFY WHAT
DISCIPLINES YOU ARE GOING TO
DO.
BE IT SAILING, WHITE WATER
PADDLING, TREKKING, BIKING,
ANY OF THAT.
BUT WITHIN THAT YOU SET YOUR
OWN PACE.
YOU PROVIDE YOUR OWN FOOD,
YOUR OWN EQUIPMENT AND
BASICALLY AM IT LIKE AN
EXPEDITION.

Karen says BUT YOU HAVE 12 DAYS, IS
THAT THE MAXIMUM TO COMPLETE
THE RACE.

Yvonne says MAXIMUM IS 12 DAYS AND
THROUGHOUT THE RACE THERE
ARE TIME CUT-OFFS THAT YOU
MUST MEET OR ELSE YOUR TEAM
IS DISQUALIFIED.
SO YOU HAVE TO MOVE THROUGH
THE RACE AT A CERTAIN PACE
AND IF ARE YOU MOVING TOO
SLOWLY OR YOU GET LOST AND
CAN'T MAKE A CHECK POINT
THERE ARE TIMES WHERE YOU
WILL BE DISQUALIFIED BUT
OTHER THAN THAT YOU HAVE 12
DAYS.

Karen says AN CAMERAS FOLLOW YOU
THROUGHOUT.
THIS IS MARK BURNETT, THE
FOUNDER AND THE MAN BEHIND
IT WHO ALSO DOES SURVIVOR,
THE CAMERAS ARE EVER PRESENT
ARE THEY NOT.

Yvonne says THEY ARE EVER PRESENT.
THE HELICOPTER COVERAGE WAS
SOMETHING WE HAD TO GET USED
TO.
AND I THINK THEY ARE VERY
GOOD AT CATCHING THE MOMENTS
OF GLORY AND OF COURSE THE
MISERY THAT EXISTS THERE.

Karen says AND HOW ABOUT THOSE TEAM
DYNAMICS, BECAUSE THAT IS
PLAYED OUT VERY MUCH IN THE
PAST ABOUT THE FOUR MEMBERS
AND HOW THEY GET ALONG.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT.

Dave says IT IS ALWAYS AN IMPORTANT
PART ANDY VON AND I TALKING
ABOUT THIS BEFORE WE CAME IN
THAT OFTEN TEAM DYNAMICS IS
WHAT DECIDES SUCCESS OR
FAILURE IN THE RACE.
I THINK WE HAVE REALLY GOOD
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO WORK
TOGETHER, THAT IS WHAT HELPS
US GET THROUGH THE RACE.
BUT CERTAINLY YOU SEE A LOT
OF TEAMS WHERE IT IS THE
DYNAMICS, NOT INJURY, NOT
TIME, NOT ANY OF THOSE OTHER
FACTORS, IT IS THE DYNAMICS
THAT TAKES THEM OUT OF THE
RACE.

Karen says WE HAVE A CLIP OF YOUR
OUTBACK TEAM, HAVE A LOOK AT
THIS AS YOU GO THROUGH THE
JUNGLE ON THE ECO-CHALLENGE.

A clip rolls.

The announcer says CANADA'S TEAM SUBARU
BEGINS THE VICIOUS CHECK
FROM THE PASSPORT ON THE
AFTERNOON OF DAY 14.
THEIR PACE IS SLOW AND
TEDIOUS.

Images of a team walking through a forest appear.

A participant says WE GOT INTO THE LEECHES.
WE GOT INTO THE BIG ANTS, WE
GOT INTO THE -- WE GOT --
RATS WERE RUNNING AROUND.
IT WAS A DIFFERENT
EXPERIENCE, MENTALLY,
PHYSICALLY TALL RUNS YOU
DOWN.
I WAS DEHYDRATED DURING THE
FIRST TWO HOURS EVEN THOUGH
I WAS DRINKING AS MUCH WATER
AS I COME BRUTAL, BROUGHT AN
CONDITIONS.

Dave says WE HAVE BEEN RATIONING
OUR FOOD FOR THE LAST 24
HOURS SO WE ARE ALL PRETTY
STARVING AND WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT GRILLED CHEESE
SANDWICHES, PIZZA.

A caption reads “Dave Zietsma. Team Subaru.”

The caption changes to “Nancy Dassie. Team Subary.”

Nancy is in her late twenties, with short wavy brown hair. She wears rangers’ clothing.

She says I WOKE UP AND I FELT
SOMETHING UNDER MY THIGH AND
I LOOKED AND I HAD LIKE A
BIG LEECH SUCKING BLOOD.

The camera man says HOW BIG.

Nancy says BIG ENOUGH.

The camera man spots a big leech in the mulch.

He says HE IS JUST LOOKING FOR
SOMEBODY TO EAT.

Dave says THEY GET STUCK UNDERNEATH,
THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE
THERE, THEY FILL UP WITH
BLOOD AND GET SQUISHED UNDER
YOUR SHIN PAD AND EXPLODE.

He announcer says TEAM CANADA HAS ANOTHER
30 MILES OF TREKKING.

Karen says HERE IS MY QUESTION, ARE
YOU GUYS CRAZY TO DO
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, LEECHES
UNDERNEATH YOUR KNEE PASSED.
DAVE, ARE YOU NUTS.

Dave says WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK
THAT.
NO, NOT AT ALL.
WE JUST HAVE A DIFFERENT SET
OF GOALS THAN SOME PEOPLE I
THINK.
I THINK WE ARE DIFFERENT BUT
I WOULDN'T SAY NUTS, NOT AT
ALL.

Karen says IT HAS GOT TO TAKE A
CERTAIN KIND OF PERSON TO DO
THAT SORT OF THING.
YVONNE HOW WOULD YOU
DESCRIBE THAT CERTAIN KIND
OF PERSON?

Yvonne says I THINK JUST A STRONG
DESIRE TO EXPLORE WHATEVER
ARE YOU CAPABLE OF.
LIKE AND IF IT MEANS FAILING
IT MEANS FAILING.
AND THAT I THINK IS A LOT OF
ATHLETE GOES INTO
ECO-CHALLENGE HOPING FOR
SUCCESS BUT KNOWING THAT 50 percent
OF THE RACE, RACERS DON'T
FINISH.
SO I THINK IT IS JUST
SOMETHING WITHIN US THAT
SAYS YOU KNOW WHAT, I WILL
TRY IT I WILL GO AND TRY IT.

Karen says BUT THAT CERTAIN KIND HAS
TO BE STRONG, MENTALLY AND
PHYSICALLY.
THEY ALSO HAVE TO HAVE I
WOULD THINK EGO AND PART OF
THAT THAT WOULD MAKE THEM
THAT CHARACTERS.
WE GET BACK TO THAT TEAM
DYNAMICS AGAIN.
WHAT IF YOU DON'T GEL.
HOW DO YOU PICK EACH OTHER,
THE FOUR OF YOU.

Dave says IT DEFINITELY TAKES SOME
TIME AND WORK TO FIND A TEAM
THAT CAN WORK TOGETHER.
WHAT WE DID TO COME UP WITH
THE TEAM WAS SPENT A LOT OF
TIME TALKING WITH DIFFERENT
PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT THEIR
GOALS WERE FOR THE SPORT.
WHAT THEIR COMMITMENT LEVEL
WOULD BE.
AND THAN WE WENT OUT AND DID
SOME SMALLER RACES JUST TO
SEE IF WE CAN WORK TOWARD
THE SAME GOALS.
AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT IF
YOU HAVE THE SAME GOAL GOING
IN AND THE SAME COMMITMENT
LEVEL EVERYTHING ELSE WILL
WORK ITSELF OUT.

Karen says BUT IF YOU HAVE A WEAKER
MEMBER AND SOMEONE FOR
WHATEVER REASON GOT SICK,
NOT THEIR FAULT OR INJURED,
THAT MEANS IT IS ALL OVER
FOR ALL OF YOU, ISN'T IT.

Dave says THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME
IN THESE RACES PEOPLE
GETTING SICK AND INJURED.
IN BORNEO IT WAS
PARTICULARLY TOUGH FOR US
WITH NANCY, WE ALL ENDED UP
CONTRACTING A JUNGLE VIRUS
BUT NANCY WAS AFFECTED BY IT
DURING THE RACE.
SHE HAD A VERY HIGH FEVER,
MUSCLE CRAMPS AND AT SOME
POINT A FEW DIFFERENT POINTS
WAS SO DELIRIOUS FROM THIS
VIRUS THAT SHE COULDN'T EVEN
SPEAK TO US ANY MORE.
WE ACTUALLY ENDED UP
CARRYING HER ON OUR
SHOULDERS TO GET TO THE
FINISH LINE.
IT IS ALL ABOUT COMPENSATING
AND WORKING TOGETHER AS A
TEAM SO YES, YOU HAVE
SITUATIONS WHERE SOMEONE MAY
BE SICK OR INJURED OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT BUT WE
AGREED AS A TEAM WE WILL
REACH THE FINISH LINE AS A
TEAM AND FIND A WAY TO DO IT
TOGETHER.

Karen says AND YVONNE, YOU BROKE YOUR
WRIST DURING THE RACE.
WE HAVE A CLIP OF YVONNE'S
TEAM AND WATCHING HER DO A
THING.

A clip rolls. Yvonne is inside a cave, fully equipped for climbing.

The announcer says THE RACE IS ALMOST 200
HOURS OLD AS TEAM SUNLIGHT
LIGHT REACHES THE CAVE.
YVONNE CAMUS IS STILL IN
PAIN.
SHE HAS BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT
HER INJURED HAD AND HOW IT
WOULD AFFECT HER ABILITY TO
CLIMB.

Yvonne says I CAME IN, I THINK IT
WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF ARE
YOU GOING THROUGH IT ALONE
SO WE GOT TO THE BOTTOM AND
I THINK EVERY -- ALL THREE
OF THE GUYS TAPPED ME ON THE
BACK AS WE WENT BY AND SAID
WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS.
AND AT THE BOTTOM OF THE
ROPE THEY HELP IMMEDIATE GET
SET UP.
MY HAND WAS SPLINTED AND IT
ENDED UP BEING THE EASIEST
PART.

Karen says HOW DID YOU DO THAT, HOW
DID YOU CLIMB UP THE ROPE
WITH THAT BROKEN WRIST.

Yvonne says IT WAS DEFINITELY MIND
OVER WATER AT THAT POINT.
I THINK WE HAD HAD A
TOUGH -- WHEN WE CAME OUT OF
THE JUNGLE AND MY WRIST WAS
BROKEN AND THE MEDICS TOLD
US WE WERE OUT.
THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY WITH
NOT ALLOW US ON THE ROPES.
AND WE BASICALLY WENT BACK
AND BEGGED THEM TO LET US
CONTINUE.
SAYING WE WOULD TRY TO FIND
A WITH AND THEY AGREED THAT
WE COULD CONTINUE AS LONG AS
WHEN WE GOT TO THE ROPES
THAT I COULD MAKE A FIST OUT OF
MY HAND BECAUSE IT WAS SO
SWOLLEN I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO GRAB THE --.
AND THEIR CONCERN WAS A
VALID ONE, THAT IF I WENT UP
THE ROPES AND HAD TROUBLE
THAT A RESCUE IS VERY
DANGEROUS, 250 FEET AND IT
WASN'T JUST MYSELF, IT WAS A
RESCUER WHO WOULD BE
COMPROMISED SO WE UNDERSTOOD
THEIR CONCERNS.
BUT WE HAD, YOU KNOW, WORKED
PRETTY HARD AND WANTED TO
KEEP GOING AND SO WHEN WE
CAME UP TO THE ROPES, THE GUY
WAITING SAID OH, TEAM 12, WE
HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU.
I THOUGHT THIS IS IT, THEY
ARE GOING TO DISQUALIFY US.
HE SAID COME ON I WILL HELP
YOU RIG UP AND WE WILL GET
YOU UP THERE.

Karen says PRESSURE, TALK ABOUT
PRESSURE.

Yvonne says AND I MEAN I THINK WHAT
THAT IS SAYS TO ME IS THE
SPIRIT OF ECO-CHALLENGE
OFTEN IS ABOUT SO MANY
PEOPLE SUPPORTING YOU IN
YOUR RACE, INCLUDING -- THE
RACE ORGANIZERS AND THE RACE
VOLUNTEERS THEMSELVES WANT
PEOPLE TO FINISH.
AND I THIS THIS IS REALLY
UNIQUE ABOUT ADVENTURE
RACING IS HOW NOT ONLY YOUR
TEAM PULLS TOGETHER BUT THE
PEOPLE AROUND YOU AND THE
SUPPORT YOU GET.
YOU KNOW, THIS RACE, THE
FIRST THAT THEY HAD E-MAIL
DELIVERY TO TEAMS AT CERTAIN
POINTS DURING THE RACE.
AND THE MESSAGES FROM HOME
JUST KNOWING HOW MANY PEOPLE
WERE CHEERING FOR YOU WHEN
WERE YOU OUT THERE SEEMINGLY
ALONE IN YOUR RACE WAS
INCREDIBLE.
SO I THINK IT JUST -- I
GOT ON THE ROPES AND I
THOUGHT YOU JUST GOT TO GO.
THE OFFICIAL HAD SAID GO UP
TEN FEET AND STOP.
AND I WILL TELL YOU IF YOU
CAN KEEP GOING.
AND I JUST DIDN’T LOOK DOWN
AGAIN.
I SAID YOU KNOW WHAT, NOW
I'M HERE I'M GOING TO GO.

Karen says DAVE, YOU'VE DONE FIVE OF
THESE.
WHAT DOW TAKE AWAY FROM THIS
TYPE OF EXPERIENCE WHAT DO
YOU LEARN.

Dave says OH, FOR ME EVERY RACE HAS
BEEN A BRAND-NEW LESSON IN
LIFE AND LESSON ABOUT MYSELF
AND HOW I DEAL WITH PEOPLE.
AND IN FACT EVERY RACE I GO
IN TO IT THINKING I'VE
LEARNED AS MUCH AS I CAN
LEARN AN COME OUT WITH AN
ENTIRELY NEW PERSPECTIVE
THAT I COULDN'T IMAGINE
HAVING.
AS I HAVE KIND OF PROGRESSED
THROUGH EACH RACE I HAVE
LEARNED ABOUT FIRST ABOUT
WHAT MY BODY IS CAPABLE OF.
LEARNING TO TURN THE BRAIN
OFF AND LET THE BODY DO WHAT
IT CAN.
NEXT I LEARNED THE
IMPORTANCE OF BECOME A
LEADER ON A TEAM.
THE YEAR AFTER THAT I
LEARNED THE IMPORTANCE OF
NOT ALWAYS BEING THE LEADER,
LETTING OTHER PEOPLE HELP
AND SHARING AS A TEAM.
AND NOW I AM LEARNING MORE
ABOUT UNTIL BEING TOO FIX
RATE -- FIXATED ON ONE
PARTICULAR GOAL, SOMETIMES
FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY OR TO
COME BACK AND FIGHT ANOTHER
DAY T IS IMPORTANT TO STEP
BACK AND NOT TAKE ANY ONE
MOMENT TOO SERIOUSLY.

Karen says AND YVONNE IT SOUNDS LIKE
YOU LEARNED PERSEVERANCE,
THANK YOU SO MUCH T WAS
GREAT TO MEET YOU AND
CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR
SUCCESS.
IT WAS WONDERFUL.
YVONNE CAMUS AND DAVE
ZIETSMA BOTH PARTICIPATED
IN ECO-CHALLENGE 2000 IN
BORNEO, YOU CAN WATCH ALL
THE THRILLS AND AGONY OF
THIS RACE ON THE DISCOVERY
CHANNEL CANADA STARTING
SUNDAY APRIL 1st AT 8:00
P.M.
A QUESTION FOR YOU, HAS
THE FLU HIT YOUR FAMILY.
OR DID THE FLU SHOT PROTECT
YOU.
TOMORROW WE ARE GIVEN AN
UPDATE ON THE INFLUENZA IN
ONTARIO, WHAT THE SEASON WAS
LIKE AND WHY SO MANY OF US
MANAGED THROUGH IT THANKS
FOR WATCHING.
SEE YOU TOMORROW AT 1:00.

A slate appears with the caption “The advice given in preceding programme is of a general nature only. Viewers should consult their own medical professional for medical advice specific to their circumstances.”

Watch: Eco-Challenge, In Search of Sleep