Transcript: Art For Everyone | Mar 06, 2001

(music plays)
The opening sequence shows a wooden table with a small lit candle as several words fly by: Nutrition, medicine, prevention, treatment, health.
Fast clips show different sets of hands performing activities on the table such as pulling petals from a daisy, drawing a big red heart, tuning a violin, flipping through the pages of a book, cooking, and pouring a glass of red wine.
In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: “More to life.”

Then, Karen Horsman appears in a studio with yellow walls and a small TV set in the background, which reads “More to life.”

Karen is in her thirties, with short brown hair. She's wearing a brown blazer and a thin gold necklace.

She says HELLO.
I'M SITTING IN FOR MAUREEN
TAYLOR.
WELCOME TO “MORE TO LIFE.”
NOW, DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?
STANDING IN A GALLERY AND
LOOKING AT A FAMOUS PIECE OF
ART AND EVERYONE AROUND YOU IS
SAYING HOW GREAT IT IS.
MAYBE IT'S MONA LISA OR AN
UNMADE BED WITH A BUNCH OF
DIRTY UNDERWEAR AROUND IT.
SO YOU'RE STARING AT YOURSELF
SAYING YOU DON'T GET IT.
RELAX, IT'S NOT THAT YOU'RE
MISSING THE PUNCH LINE OR
YOU'RE A PHILISTINE.
MAYBE YOU'RE TRYING TOO HARD.
GARY IS AN ART CRITIC AND AN
ARTIST IN HIS OWN RIGHT.
WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT ART
APPRECIATION.

Gary is in his late forties, with receding gray hair and a stubble. He’s wearing a black suit over a black V-necked shirt.

Karen continues WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU ABOUT
ART YOU DO LIKE AND ART YOU
DON'T LIKE.
GIVE US A CALL IN TORONTO HERE

A caption reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
Then, it changes to "moretolife@tvo.org"

Karen continues
WE HAVE A GREAT GIVE AWAY TODAY.
WE HAVE TWO COPIES OF THE BOOK
“SISTER WENDY'S AMERICAN COLLECTION.”

A picture of the book appears briefly. The cover features pictures of a nun and several art pieces.

Karen continues IT'S GORGEOUS.
SO WE'LL GIVE IT AWAY TO TWO
LUCKY COLLARS THAT-- CALLERS
THAT GET THEIR QUESTION ON THE
AIR.
WE'LL ANNOUNCE THAT AT THE END
OF THE SHOW.
GARY, WELCOME, THANK YOU FOR
COMING IN.

Gary says IT'S NICE TO COME IN HERE.
I WAS THINKING IT OVER.
MAYBE YOU ARE A PHILISTINE AND
YOU ARE MISSING IT.
AND-- I THINK THAT'S TOO
GENEROUS OF A QUOTATION.

Karen says YOU LOOK AT A PIECE OF ART
AND SAY WHY AM I NOT GETTING IT?
MAYBE WE SHOULD START WITH THE
DEFINITION OF WHAT EXACTLY IS ART.
HOW ABOUT THAT?

The caption changes to "Gary Michael Dault. Art Critic."

Gary says NOTHING LIKE GETTING OFF
WITH A STUPEFYING GENERAL QUESTION.
ART, THE WORD A-R-T, ANYTHING
THAT COVERS ANYTHING FROM GRECO
ROMAN SCULPTURE TO A GREAT BIG
HAMBURGER SITTING DOWN IN THE
FLOOR OF THE MUSEUM OF ONTARIO.
ART CAN'T COVER THAT.
IT'S LIKE LOVE.
EVEN LESS SPECIFIC THAN LOVE.
IT'S HOPELESSLY INADEQUATE AS A
WORD AND YOU CAN HARDLY BLAME
PEOPLE FOR BEING PUZZLED WHEN
THEY'RE-- WHEN THEY'RE TOLD
THAT ART IS THIS AND THEN
SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT
FROM THAT.

Karen says THAT'S A CHALLENGE.
IT MAY BE A TOUGH QUESTION TO
WHAT THE GENERAL MEANING OF ART
IS, BUT WE TRY TO GRAM WITH
THAT.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE NOT GETTING
THAT PIECE OF ART ON THE WALL
AND SOMEONE TELLS YOU IT'S ART,
YOU SAY IT'S NOT MY DEFINITION
OF ART.

The caption changes to "Today’s topic: art."

Gary says PERHAPS FOR YOU IT ISN'T ART.
I MEAN, THE GREAT DOTTA ARTIST
Marcel Duchamp CHANGED THE
WAY WE LOOK AT ART IN A CENTURY
IN A SENSE THAT FEELING THAT
ART WAS DEEPLY IRONIC AND WAS
ABOUT GAME PLAYING BASICALLY
ONCE SAID IN HIS W A AGGISH WAY
THAT ART IS WHATEVER YOU CAN
GET AWAY WITH.
AND SO CONSEQUENTLY, IF I-- IF
I TAKE THAT LITTLE BOWL OF
PLASTICS FLOWERS AND-- AND PUT
IT IN AN ART FWALRY AND PUT A
LINE ON IT AND CALL IT ART, IF
I SAY IT'S ART, IT IS TO ME.
IF SOMEONE ELSE SAYS THAT'S
JUST A BOWL OF PLASTIC FLOWERS
GETTING DUSTY ON A PEDESTAL,
IT'S NOT ART TO ME.
FINE.
MAYBE SOMEONE CAN WRITE 30,000
WORDS ABOUT THE BRILLIANCE OF IT.
IT'S ALL SORT OF RELATIVE.
THAT'S WHAT'S CONFUSING TO
PEOPLE.
I FEEL BADLY ABOUT PEOPLE
STANDING IN FRONT OF THINGS AND
SAYING “DAMN, I DON'T GET IT.”
ART IS NOT SOMETHING YOU'RE
SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO CRACK OPEN.
YOU KNOW?
I THINK IT'S SORT OF PROBABLY
DESTRUCTIVE TO THINK OF IT AS A
PROBLEM THAT ALWAYS HAS TO BE
SOLVED.
YOU KNOW?
UM, AND--

Karen says IS THAT THE TRYING TOO HARD
PART, MAYBE?

Gary says THAT'S THE TRYING TOO HARD PART.
IF YOU'RE TRYING TO CRACK IT
OPEN, YOU'RE WORKING HARD AT
GETTING IT, YOU KNOW, THAT WHEN
YOU DO GET IT, YOU DON'T WHAT
IT IS ANYMORE?
YOU KNOW.
THE PUNCH LINE DOESN'T
EVAPORATE.
THERE'S NOTHING TO GET.
ART'S SO COMPLEX.
BUT MOSTLY ABOUT ENJOYMENT I
THINK.

Karen says WHAT ABOUT THE INTIMIDATION
FACTOR?
EVEN GETTING INTO A DISCUSSION
ABOUT ART WITH ANYBODY
CERTAINLY NOT IN YOUR FIELD AS
AN ART CRITIC.
BUT EVEN IN A DINNER PARTY TO
MAKE A COMMENT ON A PIECE OF
WORK CAN BE SCARY.

Gary says I THINK PEOPLE ARE TOO OFTEN
AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT ART
BECAUSE THEY FEEL IT SHOULD BE
LEFT TO THE HAND OF THE
EXPERTS.
AND I WOULD EMPHATICALL SGRE.
IT SHOULDN'T BE LEFT IN THE
HANDS OF THE EXPERTS.
PEOPLE OUGHT TO FEEL MORE
CONFIDENT THAN THEY DO TALKING
ABOUT ART.
BUT THEY DON'T.
BECAUSE THE WHOLE REALM OF ART
CRITICISM COMES TO PEOPLE IN A
FORM OF A REALLY DIFFICULT
QUASI-PHILOSOPHICAL LANGUAGE
THAT'S USUALLY NO FUN TO READ.
WHEN I RIGHT ABOUT ART IN THE
GLOBE AND MAIL EVERY WEEK, ONE
OF THE TASKS I GIVE MYSELF IS
TO WRITE AS ACCESSIBLY AS
POSSIBLE WITHOUT SOUNDING DUMB.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T DUMB
EVERYTHING DOWN.
OTHER THAN, YOU CAN'T BE, UM,
OPAQUE.
YOU'RE NOT DOING PHILOSOPHY IN
A DAILY PAPER.
IT'S A FINE LINE TO RUN,
REALLY.

Karen says DO YOU FIND, THOUGH, WHEN
PEOPLE CHOOSE THEIR ART FOR
THEIR HOME, THAT-- THAT THEY
CHOOSE IT BECAUSE IT'S A STYLE
THEY LIKE?
OR PERHAPS IT MATCHES THE
FURNITURE?

Gary says I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF
FURNITURE MATCHING THAT GOES ON.

Karen says I THINK SO TOO.

Gary says AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT HERE
TO SAY THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG
WITH THAT, EXACTLY.
BUT IT'S A MISSED TUNE.
YOU KNOW, IF-- IF I FIND A
PICTURE THAT I THINK GOES WELL
WITH THIS CHERRY RED CHAIR THAT
I'M IN, THAT'S FINE.
MAYBE IT'S A START.
OR SOMETHING.
BUT SURELY THAT MISSES THE
OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SOMETHING
ON YOUR WALL THAT IS, UM,
NOURISHING, EXCITING, UM, MAYBE
EVEN, UM, PROFOUND.
WHO KNOWS?
STILL MIGHT HAVE, UM, YOU KNOW,
STILL MIGHT MATCH THE CHAIR.
BUT THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO BE
HAD.
I HATE TO SEE PEOPLE CUTTING
THEMSELVES AT THE PAST AND NOT
ALLOWING THEMSELVES THE
OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SOMETHING
REALLY ENRICHING.
SOMETHING JUST AS ENRICHING ON
THE WALL AS SAY A BOOK THAT
THEY FIND ENRICHING AND-- AND
STIMULATING AND-- AND COULD
POTENTIALLY CHANGE THEIR LIVES.

Karen says THIS DISCUSSION CAN BE
INTIMIDATING IN TERMS OF MY
BACKGROUND IN ART IS NOT EXTENSIVE.
BUT I BOUGHT ART FOR MY HOME.
AND THE WAY-- I TELL YOU THE
WAY I DID IT, GARY.
IS THERE A-- WAS A PRINT THAT I
SAW AROUND MY WEDDING AND I
WANTED TO DO SOMETHING TO MARK
OUR WEDDING FOR EACH OTHER.
IT WAS A GIFT FOR MY HUSBAND
BUT OUR HOME.
I PICKED IT BECAUSE WHEN I
LOOKED AT IT REMINDED ME OF A
DRIVE I USED TO TAKE TO VISIT
MY GRANDMOTHER IN BROCK VILLE
AND IT WAS A DRIVE MY HUSBAND
REMEMBERED HE TOOK TO PORT
HOPE.
SAME PICTURE.
WE HAD HAD DIFFERENT FEELINGS
AND MEMORIES ABOUT IT.
BOUGHT THE PICTURE AND GOT THE
NEXT DAY BECAUSE THE PICTURE
SPOKE TO THE TWO OF US.
THE ARTIST-- IT WAS A-- IT WAS
A PINT OF ONE OF 1,000.
I DON'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF
THE ARTIST AT THE BOTTOM.
BUT THE PICTURE SPOKE TO US S--
THAT'S--

Gary says THAT'S FINE.
WHO COULD FIND FAULT WITH THAT?
THAT'S PERFECTLY OKAY.
YOU MIGHT BE DISAPPOINTED AND
EVEN IRRITATED AT ME IF YOU
SHOW IT TO ME AND MY EYES SORT
OF GLAZED OVER AND I TOLD YOU
THAT I WASN'T REAL EXCITED BY IT.

Karen says MY SISTER SAID IT WAS A BAD FRAME.
SHE SAID BAD FRAME.

Gary says WELL, THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE.
HOW TO FRAME THINGS.
HOW TO PRESENT THINGS IS A
WHOLE OTHER ISSUE.
THAT'S-- THAT'S A TASTE SORT OF
MATTER, YOU KNOW?
BUT IF THE PICTURE, UM, IS
PLEASANT AND YOU AND YOUR
HUSBAND BOTH ENJOY IT, GEE, YOU
HAVE TO BE AN OPH TO SAY
THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH
THAT.
I AT THIS-- I THINK IT'S
POSSIBLE TO LEARN MORE AND MORE
ABOUT THE WORLD OF ART.
ART IS SORT OF LIKE VISUAL
PHILOSOPHY.
THE BEST ART ISN'T ONLY
PLEASANT TO LOOK AT IT AND
INVOLVES ITSELF WITH COLOUR AND
SHAPE AND FORM, IT ALSO HAS
MEANING.
YOU KNOW, IT'S ABOUT THINGS,
YOU KNOW?
AND THAT--

Karen says AND THAT'S WHY WHEN WE GET
BACK TO THE IDEA OF NOT
UNDERSTANDING, WE HAVE TO TALK
ABOUT THE VOICE OF FIRE
CONTROVERSY OVER AGAIN.
BECAUSE I THINK THE BEST
ILLUSTRATION OF AN EXAMPLE
WHERE A PAINTING--

Gary says ALL RIGHT.

Karen says THAT WAS A RED STRIPE DOWN
THE MIDDLE WITH BLUE ON BOTH
SIDES.

Gary says TWO BLUE STRIPES ON EITHER
SIDE.

Karen says THAT EVERYBODY SAID THAT
THIS IS THE WAY THE DEBATES
SEEM TO SUM UP.
IF I CAN DO IT, IT'S NOT ART.
IF MY CHILD CAN DO IT, IT'S NOT ART.

Gary says RIGHT.
THAT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT
DISCUSSION.
IF WE HAVE TO HAVE IT, WE'LL
HAVE IT.

Karen says YES.
WE HAVE TO HAVE IT.

Gary says THE REASON MY HEART-- THE
REASON IT'S A DIFFICULT
DISCUSSION IS IT TAKES SO MUCH
BACKGROUND.
THAT PICTURE IS BY THE LATE
AMERICAN ARTIST BARNETT NEWMAN
WHO SPENT HIS WHOLE LIFE TRYING
TO MAKE PICTURES THAT HAD HAD A
KIND OF A IMMEDIATE VISUAL
IMPACT.
THAT, IN OTHER WORDS, WERE VERY
SIMPLE.
HE SPENT HIS WHOLE LIFE
SIMPLIFYING.
THAT CAME AFTER A CAREER THAT
LASTED A LONG TIME.
PEOPLE THAT KNOW ABOUT 20TH
CENTURY AMERICAN PAINTING KNEW
ABOUT HIS OTHER KINDS OF
PICTURES AND THE STRUGGLE HE
HAD BEEN ON AND HOW HE GOT TO
THAT.
UM, YOU KNOW, AND WHEN YOU WALK
IN OFF THE STREET AND YOU SEE A
RED STRIPE SURROUNDED BY TWO
BLUE STRIPES, THAT'S ALL YOU
SEE, IT LOOKS FRAUDULENT AND IT
LOOKS AS IF THE NATIONAL
GALLERY WASTED OUR MONEY PAYING
SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS FOR IT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE
NATIONAL GALLERY BOUGHT, AND
THIS IS GOING TO SOUND SO
INADEQUATE TO YOUR AUDIENCE, I
KNOW IT, I CAN JUST FEEL IT
COMING, I CAN FEEL THE
HOSTILITY RISING.

Karen says DO TELL.

Gary says WELL, WHAT THE NATIONAL
GALLERY BOUGHT WAS A PIECE OF
BARNETT NEWMAN SENSIBILITY
AND-- AND-- AND THEY BOUGHT
SORT OF THE-- ONE OF THE
FLOWERS OF A LONG 40-YEAR
COMMITTED CAREER IN ART.
I MEAN, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THAT AND A CHILD'S TAKING A
ROLLER AND PUTTING IT ON THE
FLOOR-- ROLLING A RED STRIPE ON
THE PIECE OF CANVAS WITH
MASKING TAPE TO KEEP THE LINES
STRAIGHT.
ARE THE KIDS DOING IT BECAUSE
HE CAN OR DOING IT BECAUSE IT
LOOKS LIKE THE REAL PAINTING
AND IT'S EASY TO COPY.
BUT THE KID DOESN'T HAVE SORT
OF THE LIFE-LONG COMMITMENT TO
MAKING THIS KIND OF WORK.
I MEAN, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO
ASK YOURSELF, WELL, WHY WOULD A
MAN SPEND 40 OR 50 YEARS DOING
PICTURES OF STRIPES AND BARS ON
CANVAS?
AND THAT'S ANOTHER WHOLE
EXHAUSTING TOPIC.

Karen says IT GETS BACK TO, WHO DECIDES
THEN WHAT IS ART?
BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU COULD PUT
THOSE RED FLOWERS THAT WE HAVE
HERE--

Gary says I COULD TRY.

Karen says ON TOP OF A PEDESTAL AND
MAKE IT-- MAKE A DISPLACE OF IT
AND MAKE IT INTO A PIECE OF ART.

Gary says RIGHT.
AND--

Karen says BUT WHO DECIDES THAT-- THAT
YOU PUTTING THOSE FLOWERS ON
THE PEDESTAL IS A PIECE OF ART?
THAT'S A FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION?

Gary says SUPPOSE I REALLY DID THAT.
SUPPOSE I WENT HOME AND I
BOUGHT MYSELF A VASE OF CHEAP
AND VULGAR PLASTIC FLOWERS.
BUT I BOUGHT THEM AND PUT THEM
THIS-- IN A CHEAP AND VULGAR
VASE AND I SAID THAT'S ART.
AND I PUT IT ON A WHITE
PEDESTAL AND LIT IT PROPERLY
AND GAVE IT A POETIC NAME.
THE NEXT STEP IS TO GET SOMEONE
WHO GREATS WITH ME.
SOMEONE WHO RUNS AN ART GALLERY
OR THE CURATOR.
THAT IS EXCITING AND SHOW IT.
BUT AS EVERYONE, AS I SUSPECT
THEY WOULD, WOULD SAY STOP.
GO BACK TO YOUR KEYBOARD.
THEN THAT-- THEN IT ISN'T ART
ANYMORE.
YOU KNOW, IT'S-- IT'S JUST
THAT-- BUT HOWEVER, IF I SPENT
THE NEXT 12 YEARS MAKING ART
THAT HAD HAD TO DO WITH PLASTIC
FLOWERS, THEN PEOPLE MIGHT
BEGIN TO HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE
THAT I HAD HAD A POINT TO MAKE.
MAYBE I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE
EARTH ARTIFICIAL NATURE OF
CULTURE.
MAYBE I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SE
SEDUCTIVE BLANDISHMENT OF
PLASTIC FLOWERS AND HOW WE
SETTLED WITH THAT INSTEAD OF
THE DIFFICULT OF HAVING REAL
ONES.
METAPHORS ARE STARTING TO HAPPEN.
THEY'RE SYMBOLIC.
MAYBE IF I STAYED AT IT AND
STAYED AT IT AND STAYED AT IT,
MAYBE PEOPLE WOULD THINK THAT I
PLEASED IT.

Karen says AND YOU COULD SELL IT IF YOU
SOLD IT PROPERLY AND OTHERS
MIGHT BUY INTO THAT.

Gary says BUT MAYBE.
I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT
SELLING IT WASN'T THE ULTIMATE
TEST OF WHETHER THE THING WAS A
VALUABLE PIECE OF ART.
IT'S NICE IF YOU SELL WORK IF
YOU'RE AN ARTIST, BECAUSE IT
ALLOWS YOU TO MAY FOR-- PAY FOR
MATERIALS AND--

Karen says WE GOT INTO ALL SORTS OF
DIFFERENT ISSUES ALREADY.
BUT LET'S GO TO THE PHONE AND
GET YOU INVOLVED IN THE SKUG
HERE AS WE TALK ABOUT ART
APPRECIATION.
REALLY OUR DISCUSSION IS ART 101.
QUESTIONS YOU HAVE ABOUT ART
BUT ALSO WHAT YOU LIKE AND
DON'T LIKE WHEN IT COMES TO THE
WORLD OF ART.
OUR PHONE NUMBERS HERE

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Karen continues LET'S GO TO PAUL WHO'S
CALLING IN WITH THE FIRST
QUESTION.
HI, PAUL.

The Caller says GOOD DAY THERE.
I WAS LISTENING TO YOUR
COMMENTS THERE.
AND TALKING ABOUT ART.
AND GREAT ART OR-- I THINK--
PERSONALLY I THINK THAT ART
IS-- IS TOO PERSONAL FOR EACH
PERSON TO APPRECIATE.
I WOULD NOT, UM, FOR INSTANCE,
BUY A PAINTING FOR, UM, FOR A
FRIEND OF MINE.
UM, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE
IMPOSING MY TASTES UPON HIM.
NOW, I-- I'VE VISITED PARIS AND
I'VE SEEN THE MONA LISA.
AND I WOULDN'T GIVE IT-- I
WOULDN'T GIVE IT HOUSE ROOM.
BUT REALLY-- IT'S A PAINTING OF
A LADY SITTING IN AN OLD ROOM
AND LOOKING IN THE BACKYARD.
JUST BECAUSE IT'S BY DA VINCI.

Karen says I HEAR PEOPLE ARE SURPRISED
HOW SMALL THE PICTURE IS.

Gary says IT IS.
IT IS.
I WAS SURPRISED WHEN I SAW IT.
IT'S NOT A HUGE CANVAS, YOU
KNOW?
WITH YOU IT-- BUT IT TURNED-- I
CAN APPRECIATE MONET AND EVEN
OUR OWN KEN DANBY.
SOME PEOPLE ARE AGAS THAT--
THAT NORMAN ROCK WELL WAS
CONSIDERED AN ARTIST.
BY--

Karen says ARE YOU GARY?

The Caller says I DO APPRECIATE ABSTRACT.
BUT IN TURN, I THINK PICASSO,
HE'S-- HE CAN GO OUT THE SAME
BOAT AS MONA LISA.
I SAY AS THEY SAY THAT ART IS A
PERSONAL ITEM.
AND-- AND--

Karen says TRULY VERY SUBJECTIVE.
PAUL CAN LIKE A-- CAN LIKE A
MONA LISA BUTS ALSO LIKE KEN
DANBY.
THE MOST FAMOUS PRINT WAS “IN
THE CREASE.”

Gary says I WAS AGAS AT KEN DANBY.

Karen says “IN THE CREASE” IS ONE OF
THE MOST POPULAR PAINTINGS EVER.

Gary says NOT TO INSULT YOU OR-- DO I
CARE IF IT'S POPULAR?
ALL SORTS OF THINGS ARE POPULAR
THAT I DON'T APPROVE OF.
NO, I THINK KEN DANBY IS JUST A
MERE-- I WANT TO UNDER SCORE
MERE, A MERE ILLUSTRATOR.
UM, BUT-- BUT NEVER MIND.
IT'S NOT THE TIME TO SPEND A
LOT OF TIME TO INSULT POOR KEN
DANBY.
BUT I DON'T SEE ANYTHING-- I
DON'T THINK KEN DANBY HAS
ANYTHING TO DO WITH ART?

Karen says NO.
WHERE DO YOU SIT ON ROBERT
BATEMAN AND TRISHA ROMANCE THAT
HANG IN HLSS -- MILLIONS OF
HOMES?

Gary says YOU STRESS THE FACT THAT
BECAUSE THEY'RE IN MILLIONS OF
HOMES AND POPULAR THAT THEY
MUST BE ART--

Karen says BUT WE STARTED THE
DISCUSSION SAYING THAT IT'S ART
AND WHAT'S SUBJECTIVE.
BUT TO MANY OF US, THAT'S OUR
ART, THAT'S THE PIECE OF ART
THAT HANGS IN THE HOME.

Gary says I KNOW.
AND I'M SORRY ABOUT THAT.
IT'S ALL RIGHT.
IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO HANG, UM, A
A-- A TRISHA ROMANCE-- I DO
ADMIRE HER NAME.
I MUST CONFESS.
IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO HANG UP A
TRISHA ROMANCE OR A KEN DANBY
OR A ROBERT BATEMAN, UM, FINE.
GO AHEAD-- I'M NOT GOING TO
SUGGEST THEY CAN'T DO IT.
I MEAN, I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT
BECAUSE THEY MAKE ME QUEASY.
I MEAN, THEY'RE-- I THINK
THEY'RE--

Karen says ARE THEY TOO MAINSTREAM FOR YOU?
IS IT MAINSTREAM THAT--

Gary says OH, YOU'RE DANGEROUS.
WHAT A LOADED QUESTION.
NOT THAT THEY'RE TOO
MAINSTREAM.
BECAUSE IF I SAID THAT, YOU
WOULD HAVE ME SORT OF--
SUDDENLY I'M A REPRESENTATIVE
OF THE IVORY TOWER.
THE-- I'M DETERMINED NOT TO BE
THAT.
THEY'RE NOT MAINSTREAM.
THEY'RE NOT INTERESTING.
THE PICTURES AREN'T ABOUT
ANYTHING.
THEY'RE ILLUSTRATIONS OF WHAT IS.
MIGHT AS WELL AS HAVE A CAMERA.

Karen says BUT THEY MAKE PEOPLE FEEL
GOOD IN THE SENSE THAT THEY CAN
BRING THE STORY ALIVE--

Gary says SO DOES “TEMPTATION ISLAND.”
MANY THINGS MAKE PEOPLE FEEL
GOOD.
SO DO STEAKS AND FRENCH FRIES.
BUT--

Karen says WELL, IT'S UNFAIR BECAUSE I
MEAN, AGAIN, THIS IS ABOUT--
THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT ART IS--
IS IN WHAT YOU AND I ARE DOING
IT ILLUSTRATES THE DIFFERENCE
THAT IT'S SO SUBJECTIVE.
AND THAT SO MANY LOOK AT TRISHA
ROMANCE AND SEE HER WORK AS A--
AS LOOKING AT-- YOU SAY IT'S
ABOUT INTERPRETATION AND WHAT
IT CAN MEAN.
IT MAY TRANSPORT THEM TO THEIR
CHILDHOOD WHEN THEY SKATED ON
THAT OPEN POND.
IT COULD TAKE THEM OF ROBERT
BATEMAN, REMINDS THEM OF THE
COTTAGE THEY GREW UP WITH.

Gary says IF IT DOES THOSE THINGS, I
DON'T HAVE ANY QUARREL WITH IT
DOING THOSE THINGS BUT I WANT
IT TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT
THEY'RE MERELY SENTIMENT.
AND NOTHING WRONG WITH
SENTIMENTALITY ONCE IN A WHILE
BUT...

Karen says WHAT'S A MASTERS PIECE TO YOU?

Gary says OLIVER MIST BY JASON
POLLOCK.
AND--

Karen says WE HAVE A PINNING OF A
GAINESBORO.
CONSIDERED A MASTERPIECE.
LET'S LOOK AT IT.

An oil painting pops up on screen. It features a woman in an elaborate yellow gown posing outdoors on a cloudy day. The colours are dark, except for her fair skin.

Gary says THERE IT IS.

Karen says TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS?

Gary says WELL, IT'S-- IT'S-- IT'S 250
YEARS OLD.
SO IT'S NOT EXACTLY AT THE
CUTTING EDGE, YOU UNDERSTAND.
BUT-- BUT-- SEE, AT THE TIME,
IT WAS AN ASTONISHING PICTURE
BECAUSE IT WAS ABOUT PAINTING.
I MEAN, IT WAS ABOUT MAKING A
LIKENESS OF THIS ARISTOCRATIC
WOMAN WHO PAID HANDSOMELY OR
HER FAMILY HAD HAD TO HAVE THIS
PICTURE PAINTED BY THOMAS
GAINESBORO.
BUT GAINESBORO WAS USING PAINT
SO THAT YOU COULD TELL IT WAS
PAIN.
SO YOU WOULD GET RIDGES AND
BITS OF PAINT SORT OF STICKING
UP OFF THE SURFACE OF THE
CANVAS, WHICH HE DIDN'T BOTHER
TO SORT OF MEDAL IN.
BEFORE THIS, THE PICTURE AND
THE COLOUR AND ALL OF THAT
SEEMED TO RISE MYSTERIOUSLY OUT
OF THE CANVAS ITSELF.
GAINESBORO WAS ONE OF THE FIRST
PEOPLE TO SAY, NO, LOOK WE'RE
PAINTING HERE.
SO LET'S PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT
THIS IS PAINT WIELDED BY ME ON
TO A CANVAS AND IT'S ALL STUFF.
IT'S ARTIFICIAL AND I'M DOING
SOME SOPHISTICATED THINGS WITH
IT.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
GAINESBORO’S REPUTATION RESTS ON.

Karen says WE HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF A
POLLOCK TOO SO WE CAN LOOK AT
THE DIFFERENT STYLES AND
TECHNIQUES.

Another painting pops up. This one is abstract, made of irregular splashes of white paint on a black background.

Gary says IS THAT A POLLOCK? YES.
POLLOCK IS SORT OF THE NEWS
RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF THE NEW
FEATURE FILM THAT'S BEING
RELEASED WITH ED HARRIS AS
JACKSON POLLOCK AND HARRIS
DIRECTED THE FILM.
HE LOOKS A LOT LIKE JACKSON
POLLOCK.
HE'S A DEAD RINGER.
SUCH A HANDSOME PIECE OF
CASTING.
POLLOCK IS AN AMERICAN MYTH
BECAUSE HE WAS A HARD-DRINKING,
DIFFICULT, ANGRY, SELF
DESTRUCTIVE LONER WHO-- WHO
SINGLE HANDILY CHANGED THE
COURSE OF AMERICAN PAINTING.
INSTEAD OF PAINTING, UM, WITH
THICK PAINT WITH BRUSHES ON A
CANVAS, OUT OF THE DESPAIR
REALLY, HE THREW THE CANVAS ON
THE FLOOR AND TOOK A STICK AND
DIPPED IT IN THIN PAINT AND
SLASHED IT AROUND.
ALMOST IN AN ANGRY, YOU KNOW,
WAY.
WALKING ON THE CANVAS HIMSELF SO
HE WAS IN THE CANVAS AND MADE A
KIND OF, UM, WHAT SOMEBODY
CALLED ENERGY MADE VISIBLE.
YOU KNOW, THE RESULTING PICTURE
WAS A KIND OF ENERGY THAT-- OF
THE KIND THAT YOU COULD SPY
THROUGH AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE
OR O HAD HAD-- OR HAD IT
HURLING TOWARDS CELESTIAL
EVENTS.
THERE WAS NO CONTENT.
THERE WAS NO WOMAN STANDING BY
A THICK EVEN THOUGH.
UM, THERE WAS NO-- THERE WERE
NO COWS IN THE MEADOW.
BUT IT WAS JUST PURE COLOUR AND
SHAPE, WHICH HAD AMAZING
TITANIC ENERGY.

Karen says HERE WE ARE IN 2001, WE HAVE
A TOOTHPASTE COMMERCIAL THAT
MIMICS THAT.
THE WHOLE THING, THE SPLASHING.
IT'S A PART OF POP CULTURE THAT
STORY.

Gary says THE TIME LINE IS ABOUT 50 OR
60 YEARS BEFORE THE-- BEFORE--
BETWEEN THE TIME AN ARTIST DOES
SOMETHING MEANINGFUL AND THE
TIME THE REST OF THE CULTURE
CATCHES UP AND USE IT IS AS
SATIRE AND TV COMMERCIALS AND
JOKES AND ALL OF THAT.

Karen says I KNOW I'M HAMMERING YOU FOR
DEFINITIONS.
BUT IF WE'RE LOOKING FOR WHAT
YOU WOULD CONSIDER A
MASTERPIECE, YOU TALKED ABOUT
THE TECHNIQUE OF THOSE TWO
DIFFERENT ARTISTS.
IS IT ABOUT BEING CUTTING EDGE
AND DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
BEING THE FIRST TO DO
SOMETHING?

Gary says WELL, I MEAN, THERE'S A KIND
OF-- PEOPLE TEND TO OVER
FETISHIZE AND HAVE TOO MUCH
RESPECT FOR INNOVATION, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S NO POINT IN JUST
DOING SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST
TIME PER SAY.
BUT ALL ARTISTS WHO IS ARE
SERIOUS ARTISTS TRIED TO-- TRY
TO MOVE THE ART AHEAD.
TRY TO KICK THE ENVELOPE AND DO
SOMETHING.
THERE'S NO POINT IN SLAVISHLY
COPY SOMETHING THEY'VE SEEN.
IT'S LIKE A KID THAT DECIDES TO
MAKE A COPY OF-- THERE'S NO
POINT IN DOING THAT.
IT USED TO BE THAT, YOU KNOW,
IT WAS A COMMON WAY OF TRAINING
ARTISTS.
THEY WOULD SIT IN THE LOUVRE
WITH AN EASEL AND COPYING THE
MASTERS.
THE REASON FOR THAT WASN'T TO
MAKE A MASTER PAINTING THEY
COULD SELL.
THE REASON FOR THAT WAS TO MOVE
YOUR ARM IN THE SAME WAY TO
UNDERSTAND HOW IT FELT TO BE
REMBRANDT OR--

Karen says TO LEARN JUST BY SEEING AND DOING.

Gary says ONE OF THE FUNNIEST QUOTES
WAS A PICTURE OF A PAINTER IN
THE LOUVRE AND SITTING IN A
PAINTING CALLED “THE LACE
MAKER.”
AND ON THE EASEL WAS A CRUDELY
PAINTED RHINO HORN.
THAT WAS IT.
THAT'S ALL HE WAS QUEGT OUT OF
THE-- GETTING OUT OF THE
VEMEER, YOU KNOW?

Karen says YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT LAG OF
TIME UNTIL IT STARTS GETTING
INTO POP CULTURE.
WHEN IT COME TO, UM, THE IDEA
OF SUFFERING, THAT-- THAT--

Gary says SUFFERING?

Karen says THE IMPRESSIONISTS THEY WERE
REVILED AT FIRST AND THEN
REVERED YEARS AND YEARS LATER.
DO THEY HAVE TO SUFFER FIRST
BEFORE PEOPLE--

Gary says NO, NO, OF COURSE NOT.
SOME WERE REVILED AT FIRST.
OR NEGLECTED AT ANY RATE.
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT REVILED.
NOBODY HURLED MUD AT THEM OR
ANYTHING.
BUT THEY WERE NEGLECTED
PERHAPS.
BUT SOME WEREN'T.
MONET SOLD RESPECTABLY.
HAD HAD THE CHAMPIONS.
VAN GOGH DIDN'T DO SO WELL.
HE'S A MYTHOLOGICAL EXAMPLE OF
THE HIS LEGEND WAS SORT OF
SPOILED FOREVER BY KURT DOUGLAS
PLAYING HIM IN A MOVIE CALLED
“LUST FOR LIFE” THAT CAME OUT
IN THE '50'S.

Karen says THE STORY CAME MORE ABOUT
THE EAR THAN THE-- THAN THE
ARTIST.

Gary says THAT'S RIGHT.
IF YOU SAY TO A 12-YEAR-OLD
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT VAN
GOGH, HE CUT OFF THE EAR.
THAT'S THE SORT OF MYTHOLOGICAL
THING WE CLING TO.
BUT THAT'S WHAT POPULAR CULTURE
IS LIKE.
WE REMEMBER KHRUSHCHEV BECAUSE HE
TOONG OFF THE SHOE AND BANGED
THE PODIUM WITH IT.
WE REMEMBER JFK FOR ALL SORTS OF
REASONS.
PUBLIC AND CULTURE FIGURES HAVE
THIS LITTLE IDENTIFIABLE LOGOS.
THINGS WE DO THAT STICK IN
OUR--

Karen says WHY DOES IT TAKE SO LONG TO
LIKE AND APPRECIATE THEIR WORK,
OR LOVE THE WORK?
LET'S LOOK AT A Cézanne.
BECAUSE THIS IS PART OF OUR
DISCUSSION.

Gary says PAINTED NEARLY-- NEAR THE
END OF HIS CAREER.

Karen says TO THINK AT THE BEGINNING
THIS WASN'T ACCEPTED AND NOW
THAT Cézanne’s WORK IS HELD UP
AS SOME OF THE BEST ART IN THE
WORLD.

Gary says WONDERFUL, YEAH.
YOU CAN SEE JUST LOOKING AT IT
ON THE MONITOR, IT'S AWKWARD.
IT ISN'T ANATOMICALLY
CONVINCING AT ALL.
THOSE NAKED BATHERS DON'T LOOK
ANYTHING LIKE HUMAN BODIES
REALLY LOOK.
UM, IT'S ABOUT PAINTING.
IT'S ABOUT-- IT'S ABOUT THE--
THE FIGURES BECOME
COMPOSITIONAL THINGS THAT
CÉZANNE MOVED INTO AN ORDER THAT
HE LIKED.
YOU SEE THAT SORT OF CLOUDY
LIGHT BLUE THING ABOVE THE
PEOPLE IN-- IN THE BIG TREE
TRUNK LEANING TO THE RIGHT.
THAT'S JUST AS IMPORTANT FOR SE
CÉZANNE AS THE FIGURES ARE
BECAUSE HE LAVISHES HUGE AMOUNTS
OF STUFF ON THEM.
PAINING HUGE, CHUNKY THING OF HIM.
IT'S LIKE JACKSON POLLOCK.
BE A OVERALL COMPOSITION.
THE BATHERS ARE AN EXCUSE TO
PAINT.

Karen says RIGHT.

Gary says YOU KNOW, SO YOU DON'T HAVE
TO LOOK AND SAY GEEZ, WHAT WILL
I PAINT NOW.
YOU'RE WORKING ON A 12 X 1
8-FOOT OF BATHERS.
YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO PAINT.
I'LL GO ON WITH MY BATHERS AND
YOU HAVE THE PLEASURE OF
PAINTING.
PAINTERS LOVE TO PAINT.

Karen says I WANT TO BRING CRYSTAL IN
ON OUR DISCUSSION.
CALLING IN FROM TORONTO.
HI, CRYSTAL.

The Caller says HI.

Karen says HI.

The Caller says ACTUALLY, I HAD A COUPLE OF
DIFFERENT COMMENTS.
ONE OF THEM IN REGARDS TO-- TO
THE PAINTING “VOICE OF FIRE.”
IT-- I DIDN'T NECESSARILY AGREE
WITH WHAT YOU HAD SAID HOW IT
WAS A BOUGHT MORE OR LESS JUST
TO SAY THAT THEY HAD THE
PICTURE.

Gary says OH, I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

The Caller says WELL, IT'S KIND OF THE WAY
THEY INTERPRETED IT.

Gary says IT'S DIFFERENT.

The Caller says I'M SORRY.

Gary says DON'T BE SORRY, CRYSTAL.
I'M JUST ILL AT EASE HERE.
NO, PLEASE CONTINUE.

The Caller says I FIND THAT-- LIKE, I
BELIEVE THAT IT'S MORE OF THE
IMPACT THAT THEY BOUGHT.
BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY-- STAND UP
NEXT TO THAT PICTURE, IT'S
JUST--

Gary says IT'S OVERWHELMING.
IT'S GIGANTIC.

The Caller says IT'S IMMENSE.
THE FEELING THAT YOU GET AND
IT'S-- IT BRINGS YOU INTO IT.
SO-- SO THAT'S WHY I WAS LITTLE
BIT APPREHENSIVE ABOUT WHAT YOU
SAID.
ALSO KEN DANBY.
I WAS VERY OFFENDED BY--

Gary says OH, DEAR.

The Caller says BY WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT-- YOU
AND THE ART COMMUNITY NOT
GIVING CREDIT TO REALIST'S
WORK.

Gary says OH, NO, NO, HOLD ON.
I DIDN'T SAY I DIDN'T GIVE
CREDIT TO REALIST WORK.
I DON'T LIKE KEN DANBY.
THAT'S DIFFERENT.
IF YOU TAKE A REALIST LIKE THE
LATE JACK CHAMBERS FROM LONDON,
ONTARIO OR ALEX KOVAL, IT'S A
DIFFERENT BALLGAME.
I DON'T RESPECT KEN DANBY'S
WORK.
NOT REALIST PAINTERS.

Karen says WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN THE KEN DANBY AND THE
REALISTS US MENTIONED?

Gary says KOVAL PAINT REALISTICALLY.
NOT REALLY.
BUT PAINTS CONVINCINGLY.
SO IF THERE'S AN OPEN
REFRIGERATOR DOOR IN THE DARK
KITCHEN AT NIGHT AND SOMEBODY
STANDING BY THEM, YOU CAN TELL
THAT'S WHAT IT IS AND CAREFULLY
PAINTED.
NOT REALLY REALISTIC AGAIN IN
THE ANATOMICAL SENSE.
BUT YOU CAN TELL IN DETAIL
WHAT'S GOING ON.
HOWEVER, THERE'S ALWAYS A
MYSTERIOUS X-FACTOR BEYOND
THAT.
YOU BEGIN TO WONDER WHY ARE ALL
OF THOSE PEOPLE THERE?
WHY IS THE LIGHT SO MYSTERIOUS?
WHY IS THERE SOMETHING SINISTER
ABOUT IT?
OTHER IDEAS BEGIN TO PILE IN.
THEY'RE THERE BECAUSE THE
ARTIST PUT THEM IN.
NOT JUST AN ILLUSTRATION OF A
FRIDGE.
IT'S A DRAMA.

Karen says BUT THE SLAVISH
ILLUSTRATION THAT YOU ALLUDE
TO-- THE MOST FAMOUS EXAMPLE OF
KEN DANBY IS BEING-- THE
IMPRESSION THAT I GET OF “AT
THE CREASE” OF A GOALIE AND THE
INTENSITY AND THE FOLDS OF HIS
SHIRT AND THE SIDES OF HIM AND
HIS PRESENCE IN THE NET,
ILLUSTRATING THE POWER OF A
GAME THAT MEANS SO MUCH TO THIS
NATION.
THE FACT THAT HE'S CRUNCHED--
CROUCHED AND THE GAME THAT'S
GOING ON AROUND HIM IS FOCUS AND
HIS INTENSITY.

Gary says YOU TAKE A NICE PHOTOGRAPH
AND-- AND BLOW IT UP IN MURAL
SIZE AND HAVE THE SAME
INTENSITY, AND EVEN BETTER.
I DON'T SEE THE POINT.

Karen says HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN
THE FRIDGE THAT'S OPEN AND
WONDERING HOW THE LIGHT GOES--

Gary says BECAUSE AS I JUST GOT
THROUGH EXPLAINING, IF KEN
DANBY DID A WONDERFUL
ILLUSTRATION OF A GOALIE IN AN
INTENSE MOMENT, KOVAL IS NOT
DOING THAT.
HE'S DOING A MAN STANDING BY A
FRIDGE AT NIGHT, THE MAN'S HEAD
IS-- WE CAN'T SEE REALLY WHAT
HE LOOKS LIKE.
ALL SORTS OF ELEMENTS AND
MYSTERY CREEP INTO IT THAT THE
PAINTER HAS ADDED TO THE
PICTURE, A LOT OF MYSTERY AND--
AND ROOM FOR, RUMINATION.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT AS THEY SAY.
WHERE THERE'S NOWHERE YOU CAN
GO WITH DANBY.
WHEN YOU SAY IT'S CANADA'S
IMPORTANT GAME.
YOU'RE GETTING INTO ANOTHER
WHOLE-- ANOTHER WHOLE
CATEGORY--

Karen says TO A NATION--

Gary says THERE'S SIMPLIFYING--
THERE'S NO SCHISM BLIFM IN IT.
THERE'S A GOALIE LOOKING
INTENSE IN GOAL.
THERE'S NO SYMBOLISM IN THAT.
HE'S DOING WHAT HE'S DOING.

Karen says MELODY FROM TORONTO.
WE COULD GO ALL AFTERNOON.
BUT I WANT YOUR INPUT WHAT DO
YOU THINK.

The Caller says I HAVE A QUESTION OR A
REMARK, I GUESS.
I THINK A LOT OF, UM, WHENEVER
I'VE BEEN TO AN OPENING OR SOME
SORT OF ART EVENT, WHICH IS
PRETTY RARE, BUT IT IS, UM, A--
ESOTERIC.
I THINK THE REASONS THAT
RAILROAD SUCH VIEWERS OVER--
CONTROVERSY AT THE NATIONAL
GALLERY MAY BE THE MEDIUM OF
THE GALLERY TOGETHER WITH--
WITH, UM, WITH-- WITH THE
CULTURE OF ART CRITICISM.
I THINK IT'S NOT MADE TERRIBLY
ACCESSIBLE.

Gary says UH-HUH.
NO, I AGREE.

The Caller says AND I THINK THAT
CONTRIBUTES.
AND I WONDER IF YOU HAVE SOME
THOUGHTS ON THAT.

Karen says WELL, YOU TOUCHED ON A PET
PEEVE OF YOURS.

Gary says I TOTALLY AGREE.
SHE'S HIT TWO PROFOUNDLY AREAS
IN THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION, UM,
ONE IS THE WHOLE AREA OF THE
SORT OF, UM, PEOPLE'S
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MUSEUM.
AND THE OTHER IS THE STATE OF
CRITICAL WRITING ABOUT ART.
THEY BOTH NEED ATTENTION.
UM, CRITICAL WRITING, SERIOUS
ART CRITICAL WRITING HAS BEEN,
UM, I ALL THE FEEL THAT IT'S
ABOUT ONE WRITER WRITING-- ONE
WRITE ART CRITIC WRITING TO
IMPRESS ANOTHER ART CRITIC.
THE PEOPLE ARE LEFT OUT OF
THE-- THE PUBLIC IS LEFT OUT OF
THE EQUATION.
I THINK THAT'S WRONG.
I WRITE DIFFERENTLY WHEN I
WRITE A MUSEUM CATALOG WHEN I'M
PREACHING TO THE CONVERTED.
BUT I WRITE DIFFERENTLY IN A
NEWSPAPER WHERE I CANNOT EXPECT
THAT PEOPLE WILL HAVE THAT KIND
OF BACKGROUND.
SO I'M TRYING-- IN THE
NEWSPAPER I TRY AND MAKE THINGS
AS SENSUOUS AND AS SORT OF--
AND AS UNDERSTANDABLE AND AS--
ON A SENSUOUS LEVEL AS I CAN.
I GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT
ART SMELLS LIKE AND FEELS LIKE
AND TASTES LIKE, YOU KNOW?

Karen says HOW WOULD YOU SEE A GALLERY
BECOMING MORE MAINSTREAM.
WHAT SHOULD THEY DO TO MAKE ME
MELODY AND OTHERS TO MAKE IT
MORE COMFORTABLE.

Gary says I'M SORRY THERE'S NO
DEFINITIVE ANSWERS TO THESE THINGS.
HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE ART
GALLERY ENIGMA.
IF THE HGO WANTS TO REMAIN
PROFESSIONAL AND DIGNIFIED AND
SHOW THE BEST VISUAL ART THAT
WE HAVE TO SHOW AND BE SERIOUS
ABOUT IT, THEN THAT SOMETIMES
IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE KIND OF
BREAD AND CIRCUSES APPROACH TO
ART GALLERIES.
WHERE THEY'LL DO EVERYTHING
THEY CAN JUST TO GET THE PUBLIC
IN.
SOMETIMES THOSE TWO AIMS ARE
NOT CONGRUENT.
SO IF YOU HAVE A SHOW, UM, WITH
BELLS AND WHISTLES AND-- AND
CLOWNS AND JAZZ BANDS AND ALL
SORTS OF THINGS HAPPENING, YOU
GET THE PEOPLE TO COME.
BUT THEN PEOPLE FEEL THAT
SOMEHOW THAT HAS CHEAPENED THE
EXPERIENCE.
BUT IF YOU DON'T CHEAPEN THE
EXPERIENCE, NOBODY GOES EXCEPT
SCHOLARS AND PEOPLE THAT KNOW
WHAT THEY'RE THERE FOR.

Karen says IS THERE A MIDDLE GROUND
BETWEEN--

Gary says THERE HAS TO BE.

Karen says THE BARNES EXHIBIT WORKED
BECAUSE OF THE-- THE NOT JUST
BECAUSE OF THE WORK THAT WAS IN
THE EXHIBIT, AND HOW FAMOUS IT
WAS, BUT THE MARKETING.
AND THE MARKETING OF IT.
AND THE-- AND THE BUZZ AND THE
INTENSITY AND-- AND--

Gary says WELL, WE'RE IN AN INNING OF PR.
IT'S AN AGE IN WHICH-- THE
CULTURE HERO OF OUR TIME IS
PROBABLY THE PUBLIC RELATIONS
PERSON WHO CAN MAKE AND BREAK
TASTE AND, YOU KNOW, WIELD
CROWDS AND ALL OF THAT.
GOOD PR GETS PEOPLE IN TO SEE
THE SHOW AND BAD PR, THEY DON'T
BOTHER.
SO, YOU KNOW, AND I HATE THAT
THAT SHOULD BE THE WAY THAT WE,
UM, THAT WE DECIDE HOW TO MAKE
OUR CULTURAL DECISIONS.
BUT THAT'S OFTEN THE WAY IT IS.
LIKE SELLING MOVIES.
TAKE A FULL PAGE AD IN THE NEW
YORK TIMES FOR A FILM AND
PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WILL REMEMBER
THAT THE FILM IS THERE.
MAYBE THEY'LL GO AND SEE IS.

Karen says THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.
I HAVE an E-MAIL NOW.
I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE
ABOUT OUTSIDER ART.
HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM THE
MAINSTREAM?
COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN.
THAT'S FROM JOE.

Gary says YEAH, OUTSIDER ART IS REALLY
INTERESTING.
OUTSIDER ART, UM, AGAIN, THE
DEFINITION ARE NOT PRECISE OR
ANYTHING.
BUT OUTSIDER ART TENDS TO BE
ART MADE BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T
HAVE ART TRAINING.
WHO-- WHO DON'T HAVE A LONG
HISTORY OF, UM, OF SORT OF
CERTIFIED TASTE, WHO ARE MAYBE
NOT MUSEUM GOERS.
SOMETIMES OUTSIDER ART, THIS
SOUNDS CRUEL, BUT SOMETIMES
OUTSIDER ART APPLIES TO ART MADE
BY PEOPLE WHO-- OUTSIDER ART
APPLIES TO ART MADE BY PEOPLE
WHO ARE IN A SUB CATEGORY OF OUR
OUR-- OF PEOPLE OF OUR TIMES...
MENTAL PATIENTS OR
SCHIZOPHRENICS OR PEOPLE FROM
DISENFRANCHISED WALKS OF LIFE
WHO SOMETIMES MAKE ART IN A
SOMETIMES VERY REFRESHING DIRECT
WAY ABOUT THEIR PLIGHT.

Karen says IT'S A WAY TO EXORCISE THEIR DEMONS.

Gary says SOMETIMES SOME OUTSIDER ART
HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIC.
JOE MENDELSON, WHO USED TO BE A
WONDERFUL ROCK AND BLUES PLAYER
AND SOMETIME PLAYS BLUES AND
ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC STARTED
PAINTING 25 YEARS AGO AND HE
WAS PAINTING IN A VERY PRECISE
SORT OF PRIMITIVE WAY.
HE HAD HAD NO TRAINING.
DOING PAINTINGS THE WAY HE
WANTED TO, YOU KNOW AND THAT
LOOKED IN A SENT LIKE OUTSIDER
ART.
BUT IT WASN'T.
BECAUSE JOE WENT TO U OF T.
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
HE WAS A SOPHISTICATED MAN.
UM, HE WASN'T TRAINED IN
PAINTING, SO IT LOOKED LIKE
OUTSIDER ART.
BUT IT WAS TOO INFORMED.
JOE WAS TOO KNOWLEDGEABLE TO BE
CONSIDERED REAL OUTSIDER ART.

Karen says OUTSIDER ART MEANS YOU HAVE
NO FORMAL TRAINING.

Gary says NOT ONLY.
IT'S MORE THAN NOT JUST HAVING
FORMAL TRAINING.
IT'S PAINTING IN A WAY THAT'S
TOTALLY OUTSIDE OF THE CANNONS
OF OUR TASTE.
THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH
CARRYING WHAT JACKSON POLLOCK
LOOKED LIKE OR WHAT PICASSO HAD
HAD ACCOMPLISHED OR WHAT MATISSE -- OUTSIDE ARTISTS DON'T
CARE ABOUT THAT STUFF I THINK.
THEY'RE BUSY WITH THEIR OWN
VISION.
IT'S AN INTENSELY WAY TO MAKE
PICTURES OR PAINTING OF ANY
KIND.
OUTSIDER ART STEMS TO
ENVIRONMENTS.
LIKE SOMEBODY WILL DECIDE TO
MAKE A HOUSE WHICH IS ENTIRELY
HAMMERED ALL OVER WITH BOTTLE
CAPS.
THAT WILL BE OUTSIDER ART.
YOU KNOW?
A VISION SO PERSONAL THAT IT
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH
ARCHITECTURE AS WE KNOW IT OR,
YOU KNOW, IT'S BEYOND-- IT'S--
IT DEVELOPS ITS OWN CATEGORY.

Karen says WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ART
APPRECIATION HERE WITH GARY
MICHAEL GAULT.
WE'RE TAKING YOUR QUESTIONS.
IT'S ART 101.
ASKING WHAT YOU LIKE OR DON'T
LIKE ABOUT ART.
OUR PHONE NUMBERS

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Karen continues LET'S GO TO JILL NOW.
SHE'S CALLING FROM OTTAWA.

The Caller says HELLO.
GOOD AFTERNOON.
I CERTAINLY AM A STUDENT OF ART 101.
I NEED SOME ADVICE.
I INHERITED A SIGNED PRINT OF
AN AY JACKSON CALLED “WINTER AT
ST. FIDEL.”
COPYRIGHTED IN CANADA OF 1931.
IT'S-- IT'S GOT NO COLOUR.
IT'S TO BORING.
I'VE HAD IT REMATTED.
I STILL HAVE IT IN THE ORIGINAL
FRAME.
BUT I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GO
HERE IN OTTAWA, UM, TO FIND OUT
IF-- IF IT SHOULD BE, SAY,
INSURED SEPARATELY OR, UM,
MAYBE, UM, SOMEONE COULD POINT
OUT SOMETHINGS THAT I WOULD
BETTER APPRECIATE THIS PICTURE.

Gary says WELL, WHY DON'T YOU JUST
WRAP IT UP IN A GROWN GARBAGE
BAG AND TROT IT OVER TO THE OLD
NATIONAL GALLERY AND SEE WHAT--
WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT?
THAT'S SORT OF GROUND ZERO FOR,
UM, FOR GROUP OF 7 CLASSICAL
CANADIAN PAINTING.
SOUND LIKE A NICE THING, YOU
KNOW.
I DON'T-- I DON'T KNOW THE
SERIES OF PRINTS.
THEY MAY HAVE BEEN PRINTED
COMMERCIALLY BY SOMEONE TO WHOM
AY JACKSON--

The Caller says IT'S THE TORONTO ART GUILD
OF TORONTO.
I BELIEVE I REMEMBER MY
GRANDPARENTS SAYING THAT HE
CAME TO OTTAWA AND WAS UP AT
LAURIER SIGNING THE PRINT AND
THIS IS HOW THEY WENT UP AND
GOT THESE-- THEY'VE GOT MORE
THAN ONE PICTURE.
BUT, UM, BUT-- I DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT TO DO WITH IT.
I THOUGHT-- I MEAN THE NATIONAL
GALLERY SEEMS AN AWFULLY BIG
BUILDING JUST TO-- TO WALK IN
WITH A GREEN BAR BADGE BAG.

Gary says IF YOU CALL THE NATIONAL
GALLERY AND SAY IF YOU COULD
TALK TO SOMEBODY ABOUT THIS,
I'M SURE SOMEBODY WOULD.
THEY HAVE A WONDERFUL DRAWING
PRINT SECTION AND I'M SURE
SOMEBODY WOULD BE HAPPY TO TELL
YOU MORE THAN I CAN TELL YOU
ABOUT THE HISTORICAL
CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH IT
WAS MADE.
YOU SAY IT'S DATED 1931?

The Caller says COPYRIGHTED CANADA 1931.

Gary says AFTER ALL, THE GROUP OF 7
REACH ITS HIGH POINT IN 1920
AND IT'S ONLY TEN YEARS LATER.
I THINK IT'S A WONDERFUL THING
TO HAVE.
IF YOU GET SOME, UM, SOME SORT
OF EXPERT OPINION ABOUT IT, I
THINK YOU MIGHT FIND THAT, UM,
I HATE TO TELL YOU THIS, IT'S
PROBABLY WORTH A CONSIDERABLE
AMOUNT OF MONEY.
ALTHOUGH THAT'S PRETEND THAT
ISN'T AS IMPORTANT AS WE ALL
KNOW IT IS.
BUT IT ALSO SORT OF VALIDATES
THE PICTURE AS SOMETHING REALLY
WORTH HAVING.
HOWEVER, YOU DID MENTION
EARLIER ON THAT IT WAS DRAINED
OF THE COLOUR AND YOU DIDN'T
LIKE IT VERY MUCH.
IF YOU'RE NOT FOND OF IT--

The Caller says NO, I'M NOT.

Gary says THAT'S FAIR.
JUST BECAUSE IT'S AN AY JACKSON
PRINT AND A DESIRABLE OBJECT
DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO LIKE
IT.

Karen says IF YOU FIND OUT MORE ABOUT
IT AND RESEARCH AND GET TO KNOW
MORE ABOUT THE--

Gary says IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THERE
ARE, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PLACES
THAT YOU CAN HAVE A GALLERY SELL
IT FOR YOU.
THEY'LL TAKE COMMISSION FOR
DOING IT, BUT YOU WON'T MIND
BECAUSE IT WILL, STILL, YOU
KNOW, IT-- THEY'LL TAKE 10 percent OR
WHATEVER THEY TAKE AND, UM, AND
YOU'LL HAVE THE REST-- AND YOU
CAN BUY SOMETHING YOU DO LIKE.

Karen says WITH THE GROUP OF 7, IT
SEEMED TO BE AS YOU SAID,
PEAKED IN 1920, DID YOU-- DO
YOU FIND THAT IT WENT OUT OF--
IT'S JUST PASSÉ NOW?
ONCE EVERYONE STARTED TO DO
ALMOST ACQUIRE IT AND
APPRECIATE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN
IT WENT OUT OF FAD.

Gary says WELL, IT WASN'T SUDDEN.
BUT IT JUST-- THE PAINTINGS BY
THE GROUP OF 7 WERE SO OMNI
OMNIPRESENT.
I WAS GETTING TIRED OF
EVERYWHERE YOU WENT IN THE
UNIVERSE, THE CANADIAN PAINTING
WAS THE GROUP OF 7 AND EMILY
CARR AND THE REST WAS INUIT AND
SKIS ON THE TOP OF THE CAR.
IT'S JUST THAT WE'RE ALL REAL
TIRED OF IT.
IT'S NOT THAT THEY DIDN'T DO
LOVELY, QUALITY PAINTINGS--

Karen says WE HAVE A JACKSON ECASON.
LET'S COMPARE THE TWO OF THEM.
THIS IS A JACKSON.
DO YOU LIKE THIS?

A new painting pops up. It’s an oil landscape of glaciers melting into the sea, with broad soft strokes and a dreamlike air.

Gary says SURE I LIKE IT.
WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE?

Karen says I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF THE
GROUP OF 7.

Gary says NO, IT'S A VIGOROUS MUSK
COLLAR LANDSCAPE PAINTED AT A
TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE WERE NOT
PAINTING THE CANADIAN
LANDSCAPE.
WHERE-- IT'S A MIG RUSS, MUSCU
WILL LAR PAINTING OF A CANADIAN
LANDSCAPE.
WHERE-- IT'S A MUSCULAR PAINTING.

Karen says LET'S LOOK AT THIS TO SEE
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO.

Another painting pops up. It shows a white house in a white snowy landscape, against a gray sky. The lines are more defined and structured; it looks rigid and cold.

Karen continues THERE WE GO.
QUITE A DIFFERENCE.
NOW I LOVE THAT.

Gary says UH-HUH.
WELL, I DO NOT.
UM, I DON'T THINK IT'S-- IT'S A
DREADFUL PICTURE.
YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT'S--
IT'S-- I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD
BE BURNED.
BUT I--

Karen says I'M SO GLAD.
BUT--

Gary says BUT I THINK OF AJ CASTLE
DEFINITELY AS THE WEAKEST
MEMBER OF THE GROUP OF 7.
HE GOT INTO THE GROUP OF THE
COAT TAILS ON THE OTHERS.
HE WAS A LATE ARRIVAL AND THE
YOUNGEST.
HE WAS ON REPUTATION AS THE
LAST LIVING MEMBER OF THE GROUP
OF 7.
I ALWAYS THOUGHT HIS WORK WAS
THIN AND INSUBSTANTIAL AND
WITHOUT CHARACTER.
AS INDEED I THOUGHT THAT
PICTURE WAS.

Karen says THE INTEREST ISN'T THERE, AS
YOU SAY.
MAYBE THERE WAS A SATURATION.
BUT THERE STILL-- WHEN I WAS IN
SCHOOL, WE LEARNED ABOUT THEM
AND TOOK THE TRIP TO THE KLEIN
BERG GALLERY--

Gary says IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE NOT
IMPORTANT.
I THINK PEOPLE OUGHT TO GO AND
SEE THEM.
THEY OUGHT TO GO AND SEE THEM
AND EVERYWHERE THEY CAN.
I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY
SHOULDN'T BE LOOKED AT ANYMORE.
BUT WE'RE ALL SORT OF TIRED OF
THEM.
THAT-- THAT THE MOVING FINGER
HAS MOVED OBJECT.
YOU KNOW, WHAT-- WHATS WAS A BIG
DEAL AND SORT OF TOOK YOUR
BREATH AWAY IN 1927 JUST CAN'T
HARDLY BE EXPECTED TO TAKE YOUR
BREATH AWAY IN 2001, RIGHT?
NOW THEY'VE MOVED ON-- THEY
HAVE RECEDED BACK INTO HISTORY,
WHERE THEY BELONG.
THEY HAVE A PERFECTLY
DISTINGUISHED PLACE IN HISTORY.
I JUST DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO
KEEP TALKING ABOUT THEM ALL THE
TIME.

Karen says NOW TO CARL CALLING IN FROM
TORONTO.
HI, CARL.

The Caller says GOOD AFTERNOON.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOUR GUEST
ONCE AGAIN, I WOULD LIKE TO
RETURN TO THE KEN DANBY
REFERENCE.

Gary says I KNEW IT.

The Caller says OKAY, WELL, I--

Gary says I'M NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO
LEAVE THE STUDIO.
KEN DANBY PEOPLE WILL THROW
SNOW BALLS AT ME.

The Caller says BEAR WITH ME.
YOUR REFERENCE IS THAT HE'S
JUST AN AUTOMATIC REPRODUCT FOR
OF AN IMAGE.

Gary says AN ILLUSTRATOR.

The Caller says IT MAY AS WELL BE A
PHOTOGRAPH.
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF
SOMEBODY LIKE ANDY WARHOL WHO
WENT AROUND WITH A CAMERA AND
THEN HAD HAD OTHERS, EVEN HIS
STUDIO, REPRODUCE IT AND THEN
DECLARING IT ART.

Gary says WELL, YEAH, I THINK--

The Caller says IT'S A MATTER OF SOMEONE WHO
WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THOSE
PLASTIC FLOWERS ARE NOT ART.

Gary says WELL, IT'S A CUNNING POINT.
BUT I HAVE A CUNNING ANSWER.
AND THAT IS THAT, UM, THAT--
THAT, UM, THAT WARHOL, UM,
DELIBERATELY SOUGHT OUT THAT--
WARHOL SORROW HIMSELF AS A-- AS
THE VERY ESSENCE OF THE KIND OF
LATE 20TH CENTURY PAINTER.
HE LIVED IN AN AGE OF
MECHANICAL REPRODUCTION.
IT MADE PERFECT SENSE THAT HE
WOULD MECHANICALLY REPRODUCE
HIS IMAGES.
WHAT HE DID WAS TAKE
PHOTOGRAPHS OF HIS SUBJECTS,
MAKE THEM INTO SILK SCREENS.
HE HAD HIS STUDIO ASSISTANT
MAKE THEM INTO SILK SCREENS AND
BRING THEM BACK AND PUT THE
PAINT ON THE CANVAS.
HE WOULD CHOOSE THE COLOURS AND
THAT'S ALL HE DID.
HIS STUDIO ASSISTANT WOULD PUT
THE PAINT ON TO THE CANVAS,
PULL THE SCREEN BACK AND THERE
WOULD BE, UM, ANOTHER IMAGE OF
MARILYN MONROE OR LIZ TAYLOR OR
HE WILL ADVICE PRESLEY.

Karen says WE HAVE THE FAMOUS
CAMPBELL'S SOUP ONE YOU CAN PUT
UP WHILE YOU'RE TALKING.

Andy Warhol’s famous Campbell’s Soup painting pops up.

Gary says THOSE WERE THE PICTURE THAT
MADE HIS FIRST REPUTATION I GUESS.
HE HAD HAD A DISTINGUISHED
REPUTATION AS A COMMERCIAL
ILLUSTRATOR.
UM, DOING HAND DRAWN DRAWINGS.
BUT SOON GAVE THAT UP WHEN HE
FOUND-- ACTUALLY, WHEN HE FIRST
STARTED PAINTING THE CAMPBELL
SOUP CANS HE PAINTED THEM BY
HAND UNTIL HE HAD THIS
EXPERIENCE, WHY AM I BOTHERING
TO PAINT THEM BY HAND WHEN I
CAN HAVE THEM SILK SCREENED.
WHAT WARHOL WAS INTERESTED IN
WAS COLOUR AND ALSO NOR
PARTICULARLY, HIS CONTENT WAS
THE CONTENT OF LATE 20TH
CENTURY POPULAR-- THE POPULAR
WORLD, YOU KNOW?
SO-- SO HE FAILED HIS-- FILLED
HIS PICTURE WITH THE ICON,
POPULAR ICONS OF OUR TIMES,
MOVIE STARS AND ROCK STARS.
UM, HIS COLOURS WERE AS
WONDERFUL AS MATISSE.
THERE'S NO QUESTION IN MY MIND,
AND I THINK IN THE MINDS OF
MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT WARHOL
IS THE BEST COLOURIST SINCE
MATISSE AND I THINK HIS PICTURES
ARE WORKS OF BRILLIANCE.
I THINK WARHOL WAS A GENIUS.
EVEN THOUGH HE SORT OF-- HE
USED TO SAY THINGS LIKE, UM, I
WISH I WERE A MACHINE.
YOU KNOW?
OR I DON'T SEE WHY EVERYBODY
ELSE CAN'T DO WHAT I CAN DO.
OR, GEE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO
PAINT NEXT.
WHAT WILL I DO?
I REMEMBER THIS FAMOUS THING IN
WHICH ANDY WAS ALL IN DESPAIR
BECAUSE HE DID COKE BOTTLES AND
THIS AND THAT AND DIDN'T KNOW
WHAT TO DO NEXT AND HE SAID TO
A FRIEND, WHAT WILL I PAINT?
AND HE SAID, PAINT MONEY.
PAINT DOLLAR BILLS AND THAT'S A
GOOD IDEA AND DID SILK SCREEN
DOLLAR BILL PAINTINGS.
AND HE RAN OUT OF IDEA.
TO HIM, IT DIDN'T MATTER WHAT
THE SUBJECT WAS.

Karen says BUT CARL'S POINT IS THIS, WE
GET BACK TO THE KEN DANBY-WAR
DANBY-WARHOL COMPARISON.
YOU THINK ONE IS TRASH AND ONE
IS BRILLIANCE.
AND YOU GET A PICTURE OF A SOUP
CAN, WHICH YOU SAY IS
MAGNIFICENT COLOUR.
IT'S RED AND WHITE.
AND IT'S JUST A SOUP CAN.

Gary says THE GREAT COLOUR START TODAY
COME LATER.
THE CANS ARE RED AND WHITE.
THAT--

Karen says SO THERE YOU GO.
YOU GET THAT COMPARISON WHERE
SOMEONE SAYS THAT HOW CAN GARY
SAY THAT IS ART AND THAT IS
NOT?

Gary says BECAUSE A KEN DANBY IS A
KIND OF CAREFUL HAND-PAINTED
ILLUSTRATION OF SOMETHING THAT
I THINK MIGHT BE BETTER
PHOTOGRAPHED.
BUT A WARHOL IS A CRUDE, PRGS
MAKINGS AND NEVER PHOTOGRAPHIC.
THEY'RE ROUGH AND RAW AND
CRUDE.
OTHER---- CRUDE APPROXIMATIONS.
THEY'RE ROUGH AND RAW AND
CRUDE.
AND SO WHAT YOU DO IS YOU TAKE
THAT RAW CONTENT, AND YOU SAY
THIS IS THE CONTENT.
THIS IS THE PRIMARY
SOCIOLOGICAL STUFF OF OUR TIME
AND YOU MAKE THESE SORT OF
ENDLESS, GORGEOUSLY PAINTED,
UM, GORGEOUSLY COLOURED, UM,--
GORGEOUSLY PAINTED, UM,
GORGEOUSLY COLOURED HOMAGES TO
THE PEOPLE.
THEY'RE-- IT'S-- IT'S-- IT'S
NOT-- THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT--
IS THAT DANBY SHOULD ADMIT THAT
THEY'RE SLAVISHLY
PHOTOGRAPHIC.
WARHOL ADMITTED-- ADMITTED IT
ALL THE TIME.
THE WHOLE WAY HE DID IT.
HE DIDN'T CONCEAL ANYTHING.

Karen says I HAVE AN E-MAIL.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN REAL PRINTS AND THE
PRINTS OF TRISHA ROMAN, ROBERT
BATEMAN, ET CETERA.
AS A PRINT MAKER, I FIND IT
FRUSTRATING THAT THE MASS
PUBLIC DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT
WHEN THEY SPEND SEVERAL HUNDRED
DOLLARS ON THE WILDLIFE PRINT
THEY SO ENJOY, THEY'RE MERELY
BUYING REPRODUCTION POSTERS.
A GOOD IDEA.
A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PRINT
AND A REPRODUCTION.

Gary says IT'S A PROFOUNDLY DIFFICULT
PROBLEM AND PEOPLE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT THIS AN
THEY-- THAN THEY DO.
IF THEY-- IF TOE DON'T, THEY'RE
SPENDING THEIR MONEY ON
NOTHING.
A PHOTO LITHO, IS NO MORE
THAN-- IF BATEMAN SIGNS A PHOTO
LITHO AND IS TASTE 30,000 OUT
OF-- 3,000 OUR 25,000 OR 300 IS
OUT OF 25,000.
HE'S DONE 25,000 PHOTOGRAPHICALLY
REPRODUCED VERSIONS OF HIS
PICTURE.
WHICH IS NO MORE THAN WHAT YOU
GET IN A POPULAR PAG.
IF YOU TAKE THE-- TAKE THE
CENTRE FOLD OUT OF TIME
MAGAZINE, THAT'S A PHOTO LITHO.
NO DIFFERENCE THAN A SLAVISH
REPRODUCTION MADE BY A MACHINE.
OR LIKE TAKING THE FRONT PAGE
OF THE GLOBE AND MAIL OR
SOMETHING.
A PRINT, A GENUINE PRINT, AND
IT'S AGAIN LIKE ART.
IT'S TOO BAD THEY HAVE TO OUTS
THE SAME WORD.
A GENUINE PRINT, LIKE-- LIKE AN
ETCHING OR A SILK SCREEN IS
SOMETHING THAT THE ARTIST MAKES
ONE AT A TIME IN A PRINT SHOP--
IF I WERE GOING TO MAKE A LITHO
LITHOGRAPH, I WOULD WORK WITH A
TECHNICIAN AND DRAW MY-- DRAW
MY LITHOGRAPH ON A BIG STONE
AND DRAW IT IN AN INKY-- IF I
WERE MAKING A LINE, DRAW IT
WITH AN INKY CRAYON OR DRAW IN
A PAINT RESISTANT MATERIAL I
WOULD PUT ON.
THEN THE COLOURS ARE CHOSEN.
AND THE PAINT GOES-- NOT WHERE
THE YEARSY LINE IS-- OR ONLY
ADHERES TO WHERE THE GREASY
LINE IS, SORRY.
THE POINT IS AFTER A LOT OF
LONG LABOUR-INTENSIVE WORK, THE
PRINT IS GONE THROUGH A PRESS,
ONE AT A TIME, AND-- AND PULLED
CAREFULLY, AND THEN EXAMINED BY
THE ARTIST OF WHETHER IT IS
WHAT THE ARTIST WANTED OR
WHETHER SHOULD BE TRASHED OR
START THIS PROCESS AGAIN.
AND-- WHEN THIS HAPPENS, UM,
PRINTS ARE MADE.
USUALLY IN ADDITIONS OF MAYBE
AT THE MOST 75, 150.
BECAUSE THEY'RE-- THEY'RE
LABORIOUS.
EACH ONE IS SIGNED AND EACH
ONE-- BECAUSE EACH ONE IS
DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER ONE.
THEY'RE ALL IN A SENSE ORIGINAL
WORKS OF ART.
SO THAT'S WHY THEY'RE 200, 300,
600 DOLLARS.
WHATEVER THEY ARE.
THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM A
MECHANICALLY REPRODUCED IMAGE
THAT THE ARTIST JUST MERELY
SIGNS.

Karen says WHAT ABOUT WHEN IT SAYS
LIMITED EDITION ON IT?

Gary says WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.
LIMITED EDITION OF TEN.
ONLY TEN COPIES AND A-- THAT'S
A SCARCE ITEM.
BUT IF IT'S LIMIT TODAY 25,000,
IT'S NOT LIMITED AT ALL,
REALLY.
I MEAN, SUCH A HIGH RUN THAT,
YOU KNOW, THAT-- FOR EXAMPLE,
THE WHOLE BUSINESS OF LIMITED--
OF NUMBERING A PRINT IT USED TO
MAKE SENSE.
BECAUSE THE FIRST PRINTS YOU
MADE, SAY IT WAS AN ETCHING,
WAS PERHAPS CRISP AND BEAUTIFUL
AND BLACK THE WAY YOU WANTED IT
TO BE AS THE INK BIT INTO THE
PAPER AND SO ON.
BUT SOMETIMES, UM, BY THE TIME
YOU PULL THE HUNDREDS VER
HUNDRED-- A HUNDRED OF THOSE,
THE PRINT GOT WORN AND THE IMAGE
WAS NOT AS PRECISE--

Karen says THAT'S WHY YOU SAID THE COST
WAS MORE FOR THE EARLIER PRINTS
AND--

Gary says THAT'S NOT SO MUCH A FACTOR
NOW WITH MODERN PRINTS PRESSES.
BUT THAT'S WHY PEOPLE STARTED
TO NUMBER PRINTS.
NOT ONLY TO KEEP TRACK OF HOW
MANY THERE WERE BUT TO SORT OF
INDICATE THAT THE LAST ONE MAY
NOT BE AS GOOD AS THE FIRST
ONE.
THAT'S NOT TRUE ANYMORE.
BUT AT ONE POINT THAT WAS A
FACTOR.

Karen says LET'S GO TO LANA.

The Caller says HI, GOOD AFTERNOON.
THIS MAY SOUND A LITTLE
SARCASTIC BUT I'M WONDERING HOW
LARGE CORPORATIONS INFLUENCE
THE ART WORLD AND WHAT WE BUY?
IF IT'S PAYING ON A
CORPORATIONS WALLS, SUDDENLY
IT'S A MASTERPIECE.
OR HOW THEY CAN INFLUENCE A
CERTAIN GROUP OR PUSH MONEY TO
A CERTAIN ART GALLERY THAT THEY
BUY ONE-- SUDDENLY IT'S-- IT
BECOMES SO POPULAR OR IT'S A
MASTER-- PIECE BECAUSE SUDDENLY
THE CORPORATION OR-- IT'S A,
YOU KNOW, VERY POPULAR IN THE
ART WORLD.

Karen says YEAH, WHAT IS THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CORPORATE
CANADA AND THE ART WORLD?
IS THERE MUCH OF ONE?

Gary says CORPORATIONS DON'T DECIDE
WHAT KIND OF ART THEY WANT.
SO THEY RELY ON THE SURFACES OF
AN ART CONSULTANT.
AN ART CONSULTANTS MID-WIVES
THE TRANSITION FROM A WORK OF
ART FROM THE ARTIST TO THE
SALE.
TO THE WORKS.
AND THE-- AND THE ART
CONSULTANT-- TO THE
CORPORATION.
AND THE ART CONSULTANT GETS A
CUT.
IT'S LIKE-- IT DOESN'T SEEM TO
ME THE CORPORATION, THE PICTURE
THAT HANG ON THE WALLS OF A
CORPORATE OFFICE CAN-- CAN HAVE
MUCH INFLUENCE.
BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T SEE THEM.
HOW OFTEN DO YOU GO TO THE 84TH
FLOOR TO THE TD CENTRE-- A
PICTURE IS THERE IF YOU HAPPEN
TO BE VISITING A LAWYER OR
SOMETHING.
BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY AN
INFLUENCE PLACE FOR A PICTURE
TO BE.
CORPORATIONS USE PICTURE LIKE
THAT FOR DECOR AND FOR PRICE
TEEJ, I SUPPOSE IT DOESN'T HURT
THAT THEY KNOW IT MAY GO UP IN
VALUE FOR TAX WRITE-OFF
PURPOSES.
IT BENEFITS BIG CORPORATIONS TO
SURROUND THEMSELVES WITH A KIND
OF TOKEN TRAPPINGS OF CULTURE.
I THINK IT IS TOKEN.
BUT I DON'T THINK THAT-- THAT
THE FACT THAT A, UM, THAT A
CORPORATION HAS A BIG, SAY,
DAVID BULDUKE ON HIS WALL MAKES
HIM A MORE-- AN ARTIST TO COME
TO COLLECT.
IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.

Karen says WHEN YOU LOOK AT A
MASTERPIECE, KNOWING IT'S OUT
OF REACH FOR SO MUCH US.
BUT ART THAT COULD BE IN REACH.
WHEN WE THINK ABOUT VALUE FOR
WORK THAT WE MAY BE INVESTING
IN, WHAT SHOULD WE GO IN WITH A
REALISTIC SENSE WHAT HAVE ART
COSTS TODAY?

Gary says WELL, IT ALWAYS GOES BACK TO
THE TASTE ISSUES, YOU KNOW?
I MEAN, I'M NOT GOING TO GO ON
RECORD OF SAYING PEOPLE
SHOULDN'T GO-- SHOULDN'T BUY
WHAT THEY LIKE.
IF THEY WANT TO BUY WHAT THEY
LIKE, THAT'S A KIND OF
INVESTMENT ON THEMSELVES, AND I
CAN'T QUARREL WITH THAT.
BUT IF PEOPLE WANT TO BE MORE
MOVED-- MORE MOVED AND TAKE
THEIR TIME AND DO READING ABOUT
THE ARTIST THEY'RE
CONTEMPLATING.
THEY CAN READ ARTISTS ABOUT THE
ARTISTS WORK AND WHERE THE WORK
IS COMING FROM AND WHAT THE
ARTIST IS ABOUT.
THAT'S EASY TO ACHIEVE.
ESPECIALLY NOWADAYS IN THE AGE
OF THE INTERNET.
UM, CAN READ ART MAGAZINES, FOR
EXAMPLE.
FIND OUT ABOUT SOME OF THE
PEOPLE.
AFTER ALL, NOBODY WOULD BUY A
STOCK PORTFOLIO, NOBODY WOULD
BUY STOCK WITHOUT DOING
RESEARCH.
I DON'T SEE WHY THE SAME
SHOULDN'T APPLY TO ART.

Karen says TO KNOW IF IT'S INFLATE IN
VALUE, IS IT TRUE THAT THEY SAY
THE ARTIST HAS TO DIE BEFORE
IT'S GOING TO INFLATE?

Gary says NO, NO, THE ARTIST DOESN'T
HAVE TO DIE.
HE HAS TO BE HOT.
YOU KNOW, THE ARTIST HAS TO BE
SOMEBODY THAT'S DOING SOMETHING
THAT JUST SORT OF WHERE-- JUST
SORT OF HITS THE PUBLIC RIGHT
WHERE IT LIVES?
YOU KNOW, THE ARTIST THAT HAS
THE FINGER OF THE PULSE RIGHT
NOW WILL BE HOT AND SELL.
EVERYBODY WILL WANT THEM.
I'VE SEEN PICTURES FROM ARTISTS
GO FROM A COUPLE OF HUNDRED
DOLLARS TO A COUPLE OF THOUSAND
OF DOLLARS IN NO TIME.
I'VE SEEN THE OPPOSITE HAPPEN.
I'VE SEEN HAROLD TOWN, DIED,
UM, 15 YEARS AGO, UM, GO FROM
THE HOTTEST PAINTER IN CANADA
TO-- TO-- I REMEMBER IN AN
AUCTION, I REMEMBER A LITHO
LITHODEPRAF BEING KNOCKED DOWN
TO 100 dollars AND I BOUGHT BECAUSE I
COULDN'T SEE IT-- I BOUGHT IT
AS A KIND OF, UM, WHAT WAS
THAT--

Karen says WE HAVE A PICTURE OF A TOWN
WHILE YOU'RE--

Gary says IT WAS LIKE PILTY.
NOT THAT I DIDN'T LIKE THE
PRINT, BUT I LOVED HAROLD AND--
I DON'T LIKE THAT ONE.
I HATED THOSE.
THAT'S A PARTICULAR PERIOD OF
THOSE I HATED.
THOSE STRETCH BANKS.

An abstract painting pops up. It’s made of a collection of red stains resembling peacock feathers connected to a central point.

Karen says WOW.
THAT'S PSYCHADELIC.

Gary says AND I COULDN'T SEE THIS
PAINTER GET KNOCKED DOWN--
KNOCKED DOWN TO 100 dollars.
I WANT-- I BOUGHT IT BECAUSE I
WANTED TO SAVE IT FROM A FATE
OF BEING UNDER LOVED OR
SOMETHING.

Karen says LET'S TALK ABOUT THE REBEL
ARTIST.
BECAUSE THIS IS THE TYPE OF
ARTIST THAT GET ALL THE
PUBLICITY.
THE ONE IN PARTICULAR-- QUITE A
FEW THAT COME TO MIND BUT THE
ONE THAT GOT THE MAYOR OF NEW
YORK UPSET THAT PAINTED ALL THE
PEOPLE IN THE LAST SUPPER NUDE.

Gary says OH, MY GOD.

Karen says AND DRESS MADE OF MEAT.
A WOMAN THAT MAKES A BED THAT'S
UNMADE AND HAS DIRTY UNDERWEAR
ALL OVER THE PLACES.
THESE ARTISTS GRAB THE HEADLINES
HEADLINES.

Gary says IN 1917, THERE WAS A
PORCELAIN URINAL AS A
SCULPTURE.
YOU KNOW, BECOME ONE OF THE
MOST FAMOUS ARTIFACTS IN ALL OF
20TH CENTURY ART.
IT WAS A PORCELAIN URINAL HE
FOUND IN A PARIS GALLERY AND
PUT IT IN A GALLERY AND CALLED
IT SCULPTURE.
CALLED IT-- I FORGET WHAT HE
CALLED IT.
VERY FAMOUS.
AND, UM, I-- ARTIST ARE ALWAYS
PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES OF WHAT
THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH, YOU
KNOW?
IT'S-- IT'S FUN TO SHOCK THE
PUBLIC.
MY FEELING IS THAT IT'S ALMOST
IMPOSSIBLE TO DO IT ANYMORE
BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A VERY
ABSORBED ELASTIC CULTURE.
BECAUSE OF TV AND MOVIES,
THERE'S HARDLY ANYTHING WE CAN
SEE THAT UPSETS OR SHOCKS US.
UNFORTUNATELY--

Karen says I THOUGHT IT WAS SHOCKING
WITH THE UNMADE BED AND THE
DIRTY UNDERWEAR AND THE CONDOMS
EVERYWHERE.
I THOUGHT IT WAS--

Gary says I THOUGHT IT WAS BEEN AAL.

Karen says I THOUGHT IT WAS ODD.

Gary says YEAH, IT'S MORE THAN-- I
THOUGHT IT WAS BANAL.

Karen says I THOUGHT IT WAS ODD.

Gary says IT WAS MORE THAN ODD.
IT WAS HORRIFIC.

Karen says AND THE SHEEP AND THE COW--

Gary says THEY WERE PUT IN TO
FORMALDEHYDE.
WELL, I MEAN-- IT'S-- IT'S NOT
A LONG STEP I GUESS FROM HAVING
TO-- DRAWING A SHEEP TO HIM
SAYING NEVER MIND DRAWING THE
SHEEP.
HERE'S A REAL SHEEP.
I'LL CUT IT IN HALF AND MAKING
IT MORE GRAPHICALLY INTERESTING
AND PEOPLE CALLING-- AND
CALLING IT ART.
AND EVERYONE SAID OKAY.
ART IS WHAT YOU CAN GET AWAY
WITH IT.
IF EVERYONE TO A PERSON HAD HAD
SAID GET SERIOUS AND GET YOUR
CAB LICENSE RENEWED AND STOP
BOTHERING US WITH THESE SHEEP
CUT IN HALF.
HE WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT.
BUT EVERYONE SAID THAT GROOVY
AND CHENGY.
WHAT DO YOU WANT FOR IT?
A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLARS,
FINE.

Karen says THIS IS PUSHING THE
ENVELOPE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
REBEL ARTIST INSIDE.

Gary says DAMION HEARSTS COWS CAUGHT
IN-- CUT IN HALF FLOATING
AROUND IN FORMALDEHYDE ARE
INTERESTING TO LOOK AT.
I'M NOT GOING TO BUY ONE AND
PUT IT IN MY DINING ROOM, NOT
THAT I COULD AFFORD IT.
EVEN IF I COULD, I WOULDN'T.
BUT NEVERTHELESS, A, SHOULDN'T
BE A-- DISALLOWED FROM DOING IT
AND IF THE TATE MUSEUM WANTS
TO, YOU KNOW, BUY THEM AND SHOW
THEM, FINE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S-- IT'S--
THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH
THAT.
BUT IT IS A MATTER OF WHAT YOU
CAN GET AWAY WITH.

Karen says YEAH AND IT SEEMS THE SHOCK
FACTOR THAT THEY DO TRY.
AS YOU SAY, IT'S HARD TO SHOCK
SOCIETY NOW.

Gary says VERY.

Karen says I MEAN, IN TORONTO WHERE
THERE WAS THE-- YOU RECALL
TELLING ME ABOUT THE STORY OF
THE HANGING USED TAMPONS IN THE
WINDOW.
AND RELIGIOUSLY TO PAINT THE
LAST SUPPER, IF-- OF EVERYONE
NUDE.
THE VIRGIN MARY HAS USED IN
ART.

Gary says VIRGIN MARY HAS BEEN USED
EVERY POSSIBLE WAY A HUMAN
FIGURE HAS BEEN USED.

Karen says YOU CAN BET IT WILL SHOCK
SOME MEMBERS OF SOCIETY AND GET
THEM ANGRY.

Gary says ABSOLUTELY.
IF HE-- WE STARTED CATALOGING
THE THINGS THAT SHOCK PEOPLE IN
SHOWED AND GET THEM ANGRY, WE
WOULD BE HERE FOR TWO OR THREE
WEEKS AND NAMING EVERYTHING
UNDER THE SUN.
WE CAN'T BE HELD RESPONSIBLE
FOR SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE IS
DISPLEASED WITH SOMETHING.
WHILE I CARE AND THE MILK OF
HUMAN KINDNESS FLOATS IN MY
VEINS AND I CARE THAT PEOPLE
ARE NOT UPSET AND ANGRY AND
DEPRESSED ABOUT THE LOOK OF
CONTRARY ART.
I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE EVERY
PERSON BY HAND AND SAY NOW NOW
I'M SORRY THAT YOU'RE UPSET
ABOUT THIS WINDOW FULL OF
TAMPONS.
LET ME HELP YOU GET OVER THAT.
PEOPLE HAVE TO BE-- PEOPLE HAVE
TO GROW UP AND LEARN TO DEAL
WITH THINGS.

Karen says SO HOW WOULD YOU SUGGEST
THEN, JUST TO SUM UP HERE IN
TERMS OF BRINGING-- THIS IS ONE
OF YOUR PASSIONS IS TO BRING
ART MORE TO THE MAINSTREAM.
TO-- TO MORE PEOPLE TO BE
EXPOSED TO ART.

Gary says I WOULD LIKE ART TO BE MORE
IMPORTANT.
I WISH IT WERE MORE IMPORTANT.
AS IMPORTANT AS POPULAR MUSIC
OR THE MOVIES.
YEAH.

Karen says HOW SHOULD THE ART WORLD DO THAT?

Gary says OH, I-- IT'S PROBABLY NOT
DOABLE.
I-- UM, CONTRARY ART WILL NEVER
HAVE THE MASS APPEAL THAT--
CONTEMPORARY ART WILL WILL
NEVER HAVE THE MASS APPEAL THAT
MOVIES I SUPPOSE.
PEOPLE LIKE STORIES.
THAT HAVE BEGINS AND MIDDLES
AND ENDS AND THEY LOVE
NARRATIVE AND STOIS THEY ARE
IDENTIFY WITH.
WHO DOESN'T?
TOO.
AND CONTEMPORARY ART DOESN'T DO
THAT VERY MUCH.
CONTEMPORARY ART TENDS TO DEAL
WITH SORT OF IDEAS THAT-- IDEAS
THAT ARE KIND OF ABSTRACT.
I MEAN, WHEN I TALKED ABOUT THE
POLLOCK AND SAID IT'S A PIECE
OF ENERGY.
JACK NICHOLSON SAYS IT'S A
PIECE OF ENERGY TOO.
AND THEY CAN UNDERSTAND THAT
ENERGY.
IT'S HUMAN ENERGY.
THEY LOOK AT POLLOCK'S WILD
LINES INFLUENCING ALL OVER A
HUGE CANVAS AND THEY SAY THAT'S
JUST-- FLUNG ALL OVER A HUGE
CANVAS AND THEY SAY THAT'S JUST
A MESS.
IT IS A MESS.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE MESS AS
THE VITALITY OF THE MAN GIVEN
PHYSICAL FORM, THEN THAT BEGINS
TO HAVE VALUE.
BUT YOU HAVE TO MAKE A LEAP.
YOU EVER TO BE WILLING TO DO
THAT.

Karen says TO ME THE LEAP IS THE
EXPOSURE IN SCHOOLS AND GETTING
IT TO THE YOUNG CHILDREN.
WE WENT TO STRATFORD TO SEE
THEATER AND THAT'S WHAT GOT ME
INSPIRED BY THEATER.
I THINK IT'S BRINGING TO THE KIDS.

Gary says WITH WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO
IT, I HATE TO BE SO ALL
ENCOMPASSING AND GENERAL
BECAUSE WHO NEEDS CULTURAL
CRITICISM LIKE THIS, BUS UNLESS
THEY READ TO CHILDREN, THEY
WON'T UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE.
IF THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND
THOUGHT, THEY'LL HAVE TO
PATIENCE FOR ART.

Karen says GARY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
COMING IN.
GARY MICHAEL GAULT.
HE'S AN ART CRITIC.
CONGRATULATIONS TO OUR TWO WINNERS.
THEY GET COPIES OF “SISTER
WENDY'S COLLECTION.”
LEARNING MORE ABOUT THE UP
COMING EXHIBITS AT THE ART
GALLERY OF ONTARIO, YOU CAN GO
TO the Art Gallery of Ontario,
www.ago.net
Ore you can phone them at
416-979-6648.
Also the University of Toronto offers an art appreciation course. Check out their website at
www.continuallyuoft.utoronto.ca
or call them at 416-978-2400.
That’s it for today’s show.
Join us Monday through Fridays for More to Life on TVO.

Watch: Art For Everyone