Transcript: Gas | Sep 26, 2000

(music plays)
The opening sequence shows a wooden table with a small lit candle as several words fly by: Nutrition, medicine, prevention, treatment, health.
Fast clips show different sets of hands performing activities on the table such as pulling petals from a daisy, drawing a big red heart, tuning a violin, flipping through the pages of a book, cooking, and pouring a glass of red wine.
In animation, the title appears inside the shape of a house: “More to life.”

Then, Maureen Taylor appears in a studio with yellow walls.

Maureen is in her late thirties, with wavy blond hair in a bob. She's wearing a black blazer over a white turtleneck.

She says HI, I'M MAUREEN
TAYLOR AND WELCOME TO “MORE TO LIFE.”
TRUCKERS ARE FURIOUS,
CONSUMERS ARE FUMING AND
OTTAWA IS FUSSING.
WE'VE BEEN PAYING THROUGH
THE NOSE FOR GASOLINE, AND
IT'S SUPPOSED TO COST AN ARM
AND A LEG TO HEAT OUR HOMES
THIS WINTER.
“TORONTO STAR” COLUMNIST TOM
WALKOM IS HERE.
JOHN SEWELL THINKS HIGH prices
ARE ACTUALLY GOOD FOR US, AN
ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST AND
FORMER MAYOR OF TORONTO.

Tom Walcom is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted white hair. He’s wearing glasses, a brown plaid suit, white shirt, and striped golden tie.
John Sewell is also in his late fifties, clean-shaven and balding. He’s wearing glasses, a brown coat and a white shirt.

Maureen continues WHAT ABOUT YOU?
WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE
DONE ABOUT THE HIGH COST OF
FILLING YOUR TANK OR HEATING
YOUR HOME?
OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN
OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO
IMPROVE ENERGY CONSERVATION
SO WE CAN'T BE HELD HOSTAGE
BY OPEN PECK?
GIVE US A CALL, TELL US WHAT
you THINK.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "416-484-2727. 1-888-411-1234."
It then changes to “moretolife@tvo.org”

Maureen says GENTLEMEN,
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME.
HI.
TOM, WHY IS GAS SO EXPENSIVE
AND HAS BEEN THROUGH THE
SUMMER?
WHY ARE THESE PRICES SO HIGH?

The caption changes to "Tom Walkom. Toronto Star Columnist."

Tom says LET ME BACK
UP A BIT, I DON'T WANT TO BE
AN A APOLOGIST FOR OPEN PECK
BUT YOU CAN ARGUE
HISTORICALLY GAS PRICES
BASED ON OIL PRICES HAVE
BEEN RELATIVELY LOW FOR THE
LAST FEW YEARS.
IF YOU ADJUST FOR INFLATION,
THEY'VE BEEN WELL BE LOW THE
AVERAGE OF THE OIL PRICE
SINCE 1949.
SO IN ONE SENSE, THEY'RE
CATCHING UP, AND THEY'VE
GONE, OF COURSE, OVER THE
AVERAGE.
THE BASIC REASON WHY GAS
PRICES GO UP AND DOWN LIKE A
YO-YO IS THAT OIL IS IN
RELATIVELY STATIC SUPPLY.
THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH OIL,
RIGHT?
THE OIL COMES -- OIL
BASICALLY COMES FROM HYDRO
CARBONS, DEAD TREES FROM A
FEW MILLION YEARS AGO.
WELL THOSE TREES ALL DIED A
FEW MILLION YEARS AGO AND
THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH OIL.
NOW EVERY NOW AND AGAIN THEY
FIND SOME MORE, BUT SUPPLY
IS IN RELATIVE TERMS FIXED.
SO YOU GOT THAT GOING ON,
AND IN THE LAST FEW YEARS
YOU'VE HAD AN ECONOMY,
PARTICULARLY IN THE UNITED
STATES, WHICH HAS BEEN
HEATING UP.
SO PEOPLE ARE USING MORE OIL
AND GAS, AND THE PRESSURE ON
THE PRICE TO THE PRODUCERS,
WHICH ARE BASICALLY THE
OIL-PRODUCING COUNTRIES, HAS
GONE UP.
I MEAN THAT'S THE
FUNDAMENTAL REASON.

Maureen says SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

Tom says YEAH.
I MEAN I DON'T WANT TO SOUND
LIKE SOME KIND OF FREE
MARKET FANATIC BUT THERE'S
AN ELEMENT OF TRUTH IN THAT.
OIL, OF COURSE, IS
CARTELIZED.
THE OPEN PECK COUNTRIES
CONTROL THE SUPPLY AND THERE
ARE ONLY A FEW MAJOR OIL
COUNTRIES WHO ALSO HELP TO
CONTROL THE PRICE.
BUT THEY'VE HAD A VERY
DIFFICULT TIME, THE OPEN
PECK COUNTRIES, OVER THE
LAST FEW YEARS IN KEEPING
PRICES UP.
BECAUSE DEM MANNED DURING
THE RECESSION WAS SO WEAK.
WHEN EVERYONE'S OUT OF WORK,
NO ONE DRIVES AS MUCH.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE BACK WORKING
AGAIN, THEY DRIVE MORE, BUY
BIG, EXPENSIVE CARS, SO THE
PRICE IS GOING UP.
THAT'S THE SORT OF
SIMPLISTIC REASON PRIES HAVE
STARTED TO GO UP AGAIN.

Maureen says JOHN YOU'RE NOT
BOTHERED BY THESE HIGH PRICES.

The caption changes to "John Sewell. Former Toronto Mayor."

John says NO, ONE OF
THE INTERESTING THINGS, THE
HIGHER THE PRICES OF
GASOLINE, THE BETTER
ALTERNATIVES START TO LOOK
AND THE MORE PEOPLE CAN
AFFORD TO START SAYING “GEE,
MAYBE THERE'S AN
ALTERNATIVE.”
MAYBE IF WE USE NATURAL GAS
IN CARS THAT'LL WORK.
MAYBE WE CAN AFFORD TO
ACTUALLY DEVELOP BATTERIES
SO WE'RE GETTING -- THOSE
KIND OF THINGS.
SO I THINK THAT'S A GOOD
IDEA.
I THINK THE OTHER THING IS
THAT BURNING A LOT OF
GASOLINE IN CAR, THAT'S
REALLY, REALLY BAD FOR THE
ENVIRONMENT.
I MEAN IT -- THERE'S NO
QUESTION ABOUT IT NOW THAT
IT CREATES THE GREENHOUSE
GASES, WHICH IS RAISING THE
TEMPERATURE OF THE WORLD,
AND I MEAN HERE WE HEARD
ABOUT IT THIS SUMMER, ABOUT
THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE IS
FINALLY THERE.
A SHIP CAN GET THROUGH IN A
MONTH, SIMPLY BECAUSE ALL
THE ICE HAS MELTED.
SO THAT'S ANOTHER KIND OF A
PROBLEM.
AND IF OBVIOUSLY THE PRICE
WERE HIGHER, WE'D START
USING LESS GASOLINE AND THAT
WOULD BE BETTER FOR THE
ENVIRONMENT.

Maureen says BUT A GUY LIKE
YOU CAN'T BE VERY HAPPY
ABOUT BIG OIL COMPANIES
MAKING SO MUCH PROFIT OFF
THE BACK OF --

John says OH IT WOULD
BE TERRIFIC TO GET INTO THAT
ISSUE, BUT I THINK WE'D HAVE
TO START TO RENEGOTIATE
N.A.F.T.A. AND SOME OF THE
BIG AGREEMENTS SO THAT WE
COULD START TO CONTROL THAT
KIND OF A PRICE SO FROM THAT
POINT OF VIEW, THE QUESTION
OF WHO'S GETTING THE MONEY,
I WOULD AGREE.
I MEAN, WHY DO I WANT OPEC,
WHY DO I WANT THE BIG OIL
COMPANIES TO GET MOST THIS
MONEY?
I DON'T.

Tom says BUT JOHN
RAISES A REAL IMPORTANT
POINT HERE AND IF YOU START
WITH THE FACT THAT OIL PRICES
HAVE BEEN RELATIVELY LOW --

Maureen says I'VE GOT TO GET MY
HEAD AROUND THAT, TOM.
OKAY.

Tom says WELL THEY HAVE
BEEN, UNTIL RECENTLY, IF YOU
ADJUST INFLATION.
BUT JOHN'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
AND I THINK THE CARTELS, OPEC
AND THE BIG OIL COMPANIES
UNDERSTAND THIS.
THEY DON'T WANT OIL PRICES TO
GET TOTALLY OUT OF WHACK FOR A
LONG PERIOD OF TIME, BECAUSE IF
THEY DO, THEN PEOPLE AND
GOVERNMENTS WILL START TO LOOK
AT ALTERNATIVES.
AND THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF
ALTERNATIVES.
LET'S JUST LOOK AT SOMETHING
JOHN KNOWS A WHOLE LOT MORE
ABOUT THAN I DO, WHICH IS URBAN
PLANNING.
THE WHOLE MODERN MEGALOPOLIS,
SUBURBS AND WHAT NOT ARE ALL
BUILT AROUND THE NOTION OF
SINGLE-DWELLING FAMILY CARS.
IF YOU HAVE REALLY EXPENSIVE
ENERGY YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THE
KIND OF PLANNING THAT HAS MASS
SUBURBS GOING OUT TO NOWHERE.

Maureen says YOU'D HAVE DENSER POPULATION.

Tom says AND MORE EMPHASIS
ON PUBLIC TRANSIT.
IN FOR EXAMPLE, TORONTO, THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT CAN GET
AWAY WITH BEING STINGY TO THE
TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION
BECAUSE IT KNOWS THAT A LOT OF
ITS VOTERS DON'T CARE THAT MUCH
BECAUSE THEY DRIVE CARS.
IF OIL AND GAS BECOME EXPENSIVE
FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME,
PEOPLE WITH THEIR SPORTS UTILITY
VEHICLES AND THEIR JUST NORMAL
CARS WILL SAY “YOU KNOW, MAN I
CAN'T AFFORD THIS ANYMORE.
I'M GOING TO START TAKING THE GO
TRAIN.”
HEY WHAT GO TRAIN?
AND THERE'S PRESSURE FOR PUBLIC
TRANSIT SO IF YOU'RE THE OPEC
CARTEL OR ESSO OR GULF OR ANY OF
THE BIG COMPANIES, YOU DON'T
WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.
SO YOU WANT TO HAVE OIL, YOU
WANT TO HAVE OIL SPIKE A BIT,
BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE IT
STAY HIGH REALLY LONG.
AND THIS BY THE WAY MAY HELP
EXPLAIN WHY THE OPEC COUNTRIES
HAVE TRIED TO BRING THE PRICE OF
OIL DOWN.

Maureen says THEY'RE TRYING TO
INCREASE PRODUCTION.

Tom says BY INCREASING
PRODUCTION BECAUSE THEY DON'T
WANT THIS TO GO ON TOO LONG.

John says IT'S A RELATIVE
THING, YEAH.
IF PRICE GETS TOO HIGH, THEY
BEGIN TO SUFFER SO THEY'VE GOT
TO HAVE THAT BALANCE --

Maureen says NOW YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT -- THEY CAN INCREASE
PRODUCTION.
I MEAN WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT
THERE'S A FINITE SUPPLY OF OIL
BUT WE HAVE HEARD OIL INDUSTRY
ANALYSTS SAY THAT THERE ARE, YOU
KNOW, THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF
BARRELS, EITHER SITTING THERE IN
RESERVES OR STILL TO BE TAKEN
OUT OF THE GROUND.
AND THAT THIS WILL GO ON FOR A
LONG, LONG TIME.

Tom says WELL, TWO THINGS,
AND I'M BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT ON
THE OIL INDUSTRY, BUT IN THE
SHORT TERM YOU HAVE A RELATIVELY
FIXED SUPPLY OF OIL WELLS, I.E.
WELLS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY GET
TO AND THAT ARE PUMPING AND THAT
ARE FUNCTIONAL.
AND MY UNDERSTANDING NOW IS THAT
WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SAUDI
ARABIA, A LOT OF THE OPEC
COUNTRIES ARE WORKING AT
CAPACITY.
NOW CAPACITY CAN INCREASE IN THE
MEDIUM TERM BECAUSE THEN YOU
DRILL SOME MORE WELLS OR OPEN UP
SOME ONES THAT YOU CLOSED
BEFORE.

Maureen says BUT NOT IN THE SHORT TERM.

Tom says BUT NOT IN THE SHORT TERM.

John says TAKES A FEW YEARS.

Tom says IN THE LONG
LONG-TERM, OF COURSE IT'S FIXED.
BUT LONG-TERM'S A LONG TYPE.

John says BUT YOU SEE, MY
ARGUMENT BEING, LET'S LOOK AT
OTHER KINDS OF SOLUTIONS.
AND PRICING IS ONE MECHANISM TO
TRY AND MAKE SURE YOU USE LESS
OF SOMETHING THAT'S DANGEROUS.
AND I THINK THAT GASOLINE IS A
DANGEROUS THING TO USE.
IT'S CAUSING TROUBLE.
I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT TORONTO
AS AN EXAMPLE, THEY CLAIM THAT
OVER A THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR
DIE BECAUSE OF THE SMOG IN THE
AIR.
WELL, I MEAN THAT'S PRETTY
AMAZING!
AND IF WE WANTED TO TRY AND GET
AT THAT, CLEARLY GETTING PEOPLE
OUT OF THEIR AUTOMOBILES AND
GETTING THEM INTO OTHER KINDS OF
TRANSPORTATION, WOULD START TO
REDUCE THOSE NUMBERS OF DEATH,
BECAUSE YOU'D BE REDUCING THE
AMOUNT OF SMOG.
AND THAT I THINK, GETS TRIGGERED
BY THE PRICE THING.

Maureen says THAT'S GOING TO NEED
AN OUTLAY OF MONEY FOR THE
INFRASTRUCTURE THOUGH, JOHN.
I MEAN IT'S FINE IN TORONTO.
WE'RE PRETTY LUCKY HERE, WE'VE
GOT A GOOD TRANSIT SYSTEM.
BUT WHEN YOU MOVE OUTSIDE OF
THIS, IN OAKVILLE THE BUSES
DON'T EVEN RUN ON SUNDAYS, THEY
TOLD ME.

John OF COURSE THEY DOVELT THEY
DISIND AN URBAN FORM THAT
DOESN'T WORK VERY WELL FOR
PUBLIC TRANSIT BUT YOU MUST
REMEMBER IN TORONTO THE PUBLIC
TRANSIT SYSTEM DIDN'T USE ONE
SINGLE CENT OF SUBSIDY A YEAR
RIGHT UNTIL 1971.
RIGHT?
YOU HAD AN URBAN FORM WHERE THE
FARE ACTUALLY PAID THE COST.
YOU'RE RIGHT.
NOW WE'VE GOT THIS INCREDIBLE
SPRAWL, WHICH HAS BEEN DEVELOPED
IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE
AUTOMOBILE.
SO IN FACT TRANSIT SYSTEMS CAN'T
RUN AT A BREAK-EVEN BASIS.
I MEAN LET'S FACE IT YOU RUN IT
DOWN ONE SUBURBAN STREET,
THERE'S VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO WANT
TO USE THE SYSTEM.
I MEAN YOU'RE ONLY PASSING 10 OR
15 HOUSES.
WHERE IN THE CITY YOU'D BE
PASSING 30 OR 40 HOUSES WHERE
THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE TO USE IT.

Tom says THE PROBLEM WITH
THIS MAUREEN, PEOPLE LISTENING
TO US WILL SAY FINE, MAYBE WE
SHOULD HAVE MORE PUBLIC TRANSIT
BUT WHAT DO I DO NOW?
I LIVE IN HALTON HILLS AND CAN
BARELY AFFORD TO GET TO WORK.
THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.
THE PROBLEM IS THE TIMING IN
THIS THING.
IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE -- YOU
KNOW, IT TAKES TIME TO MAKE, TO
ADJUST.
TO ADJUST TO THINGS LIKE THE
PRICE OF ENERGY.

John says AND THE TIMING
IS NEVER GOING TO BE GOOD, SO
NOW'S THE TIME -- LET'S START ON IT.
LET'S USE THIS AS THE WARNING
SIGNAL, THAT WE BETTER START
CREATING COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU
DON'T HAVE TO RELY THAT MUCH ON
THE AUTOMOBILE.
BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE TOO
EXPENSIVE.
SO LET'S START TO LOOK AT THE
OTHER KINDS OF SOLUTIONS.
AND LET'S DO IT NOW.
LET'S NOT PUT IT OFF TILL NEXT
YEAR.

Maureen says ALL RIGHT.
LET'S FIND OUT IF CALLERS ARE
ACTUALLY READY FOR THAT.
GIVE US A CALL AND TELL US
WHETHER LIKE JOHN YOU COULD
LEAVE THE CAR AT HOME, AND THEN
TAKE THE BUS OR TAKE THE SUBWAY
OR RIDE YOUR BIKE.
AND WHAT ABOUT HEATING YOUR
HOUSE THIS WINTER?
ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THAT
BILL IS GOING TO BE?
DO YOU THINK INTO GOVERNMENTS
OUGHT TO GET INVOLVED, NEITHER
CREATING BETTER PUBLIC TRANSIT?
OR WHAT ABOUT THE WHOLE IDEA OF
LOWERING THE TACKS ON GAS RIGHT
NOW SO THAT WE'RE NOT PAGE AS
MUCH AT THE PUMP IN THE SHORT TERM?
TORONTO DIAL...

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Maureen says AND IAN IS IN
TORONTO.
HI IAN, WELCOME.

The Caller says HI THERE.
I'VE JUST TUNED IN.
I JUST MAY BE STEPPING BACK IN
THE DISCUSSION SOMEWHAT BUT I'M
ALWAYS FASCINATED BY THE WAY
PRICES TEND TO SPIKE JUST BEFORE
LONG WEEKENDS, AND I'D LIKE KNOW
BASED ON EXPERT OPINION, IF THAT
REPRESENTS COLLUSION, IF THERE
ISN'T ENOUGH COMPETITIVE
ACTIVITY IN THE MARKETPLACE OR
IS THAT JUST A SUPPLY-DEMAND FUNCTION.

Maureen says YEAH, YOU NOTICE
THAT JUST BEFORE LABOUR DAY THIS YEAR?
DID YOU SEE THAT, WHAT HAPPENED?
AND THEY SAY NO, JUST
COINCIDENCE.
TOM WE'VE HAD SOME COMMITTEES
LOOK INTO THIS.

Tom says WELL YOU KNOW, I
HAVE THE SAME QUESTION.
AND WHENEVER THIS COMES UP, THE
OIL COMPANIES AND THE EXPERTS
ALWAYS SAY “WELL YOU KNOW, IT'S
JUST SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
IT'S THE OPEC COUNTRIES.”
BUT I NOTICE WHEN I GO OUT ON
THE HIGHWAY THAT THE OPEC
COUNTRIES HAVE MANAGED TO FIX
THE GASOLINE AND LET'S SAY IN A
CERTAIN GAS STATION IN CALEDON
ABOUT HALF A CENT BELOW THE GAS
THAT'S ABOUT TEN MILES UP THE
ROAD IN ORANGEVILLE.
AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS
THAT THE OPEC COUNTRIES, SAUDI
ARABIA, IRAN, IRAQ, ARE SO SMART
THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO FIX ALL THE
PRICES, THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO
ESTIMATE ALL THE PRICES ALL
AROUND THE PROVINCE EVERY
WEEKEND.
SO I'M LIKE THE CALLER, I'M A
LITTLE BIT SUSPICIOUS.
THESE GUYS AREN'T WORKING OFF --
THEY AREN'T WORKING OFF THE OIL
THAT'S IN -- THEY'RE NOT GETTING
THE OIL RIGHT OUT OF PUMP THAT
DAY.
THEY'RE WORKING OUT OF
INVENTORIES THEY'VE ALREADY HAD.
SO SURE, THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY
MAKING GOOD MONEY ON -- WHENEVER
THEY CAN.
THEY'LL TELL YOU THEY'RE JUST
DOING WHAT THE MARKET CAN BEAR.

John says BUT HERE'S A
TERRIFIC OPPORTUNITY FOR MIKE
HARRIS, AS PART OF THE COMMON
REVOLUTION, WE COULD GET RID OF
THE WEEKENDS.
START BY SAYING TEACHERS HAVE
GOT TO TEACH ON SATURDAYS AND
SUNDAYS AND GET AROUND THE
SPIKING PROBLEM.
IT IS AMAZING THOUGH THAT IT
DOES HAPPEN, RIGHT?
BOOM!
ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU THINK --

Maureen says AND ALL THESE
COMMITTEES COME BACK, USUALLY
MADE UP OF POLITICIANS AT THE
FEDERAL OR PROVINCIAL LEVEL,
THEY'VE ALL LOOKED INTO IT AND
SAID NO, WE DIDN'T FIND ANY
EVIDENCE.

Tom says NOW THERE ARE
SOME JURISDICTIONS, AND IF I'M
NOT MISTAKEN I THINK PRINCE
EDWARD ISLAND IS ONE WHERE THE
PRICE OF GASOLINE IS SET BY THE
GOVERNMENT AND IT HAS TO BE THE
SAME ALL OVER THE ISLAND.
YOU COULD DO THAT.
WHAT YOU WOULDN'T GET THEN --
ASSUMING YOU'VE GOT THE SAME
STRUCTURE OF BUSINESS YOU'VE GOT
NOW -- YOU WOULDN'T GET THE DIPS
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK AND
YOU WOULDN'T GET THE RISES ON
THE WEEKEND.
YOU'D HAVE PROBABLY A STANDARD
PRICE.

Maureen says NOW I WAS TALKING TO
SOMEONE FROM ALBERTA RECENTLY
AND I ASKED WHAT DOES GAS COST
OUT THERE AND HE SAID IT WAS
HOVERING AROUND, I THINK HE SAID
BETWEEN 65 AND 68 CENTS A LITRE.
SO OBVIOUSLY IT PAYS TO BE WHAT,
CLOSER TO THE SOURCE OF THE OIL?
IS THAT WHY ALBERTANS ARE
PAYING --

Tom says A LITTLE BIT, BUT
I THINK THEIR EXCISE TAXES ARE
ALSO LOWER, AND THEY DON'T HAVE
A PROVINCIAL SALES -- THEY DON'T
HAVE PROVINCIAL SALES TAX,
OBVIOUSLY.
I'M NOT SURE THAT WE DO ON
GASOLINE, BUT I THINK THEIR
EXCISE TAXES ARE LOWER FOR ONE
THING.
BUT YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE TAX
THING, I BELIEVE, AND I DON'T
KNOW WHETHER JOHN THINK THIS IS
OR NOT, IS A COMPLETE RED
HERRING, BECAUSE IT'S -- PEOPLE
MAKE THEIR DECISIONS, LIKE
TRUCKERS, INDEPENDENT TRUCKERS
SIGN THEIR CONTRACTS BASED ON A
NOTION OF WHAT IT'S GOING TO
COST THEM.
IF THEY KNEW THAT GAS WAS GOING
TO COST THEM A DOLLAR A LITRE,
OR 80 CENTS A LITRE, THEY'D MAKE
THE CONTRACTS THAT WAY.
THE PROBLEM FOR THEM HAS BEEN
THAT THEY MADE THEIR CONTRACTS
BASED ON THE NOTION THAT GAS WAS
GOING TO COST 60 CENTS A LITRE
AND NOW IT'S 75 CENTS A LITRE
AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
IT'S THE FLUCTUATION, NOT THE
ACTUAL LEVEL --

Maureen says AND THE TAXES
HAVEN'T CHANGED.

Tom says YEAH, THE TAXES
HAVEN'T CHANGED AT ALL, WITH THE
PARTIAL EXCEPTION OF THE G.S.T.
BUT YOU COULD HAVE NO TAXES AND
THEY WOULD INDUSTRIAL THAT PROBLEM.
THEY JUST STARTED ON A LOWER POINT.

Maureen says DO YOU THINK
STOCKWELL DAY AND JOE CLARK ARE
BOTH CALLING ON THE GOVERNMENT
TO LOWER TAXES RIGHT NOW?

John says OH MY GOODNESS NO.
NO, NO, NO.
I WANT TO GET BACK TO IT.
USING A LOT OF GASOLINE IS NOT A
GOOD THING, IT'S A BAD THING.
WE SHOULDN'T BE USING AS MUCH
FOR TRANSPORTATION OR IN OUR
HOUSES.
WE SHOULD BE INSULATING BETTER
SO WE AREN'T WASTING THAT
ENERGY.
SO IF ANYTHING WE SHOULD HAVE
HIGHER TAXES NOT LOWER TAXES.
I MIGHT SAY THAT IF YOU GO TO --
I WAS IN SCOTLAND A COUPLE OF
WEEKS AGO.
PRICES THERE ARE ALMOST -- MORE
THAN DOUBLE WHAT THEY ARE HERE.
80 pence A LITRE, WHICH TURNS
INTO ABOUT 1.75 A LITRE.

Maureen says A LITRE?

John says I REMEMBER
FILLING UP HALF THE TANK AND IT
COST ME 35 POUNDS.
ABOUT 80 DOLLARS.

Maureen says YOU DROVE A CAR
AROUND SCOTLAND?
WHERE WAS YOUR BICYCLE?
NOW HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?

John says THEY DID HAVE SOME PROBLEMS
WHERE TRUCKERS SHUT SOME ROADS
BUT IT WAS A VERY FEW NUMBER OF
PEOPLE IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS.
THE WORLD DOESN'T COLLAPSE WHEN
IN FACT YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A
PRICE THAT'S DOUBLE.
NOW THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT
SOCIETY WHERE THEY HAVE MUCH,
MUCH BETTER PUBLIC TRANSIT,
BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GOOD, EXACT
FORM OF DEVELOPMENT IN MOST OF
THEIR URBAN CENTRES.

Maureen says YES, RIGHT.

John says SO IN FACT
INCREASING -- IT'S A BIT LIKE
TOBACCO.
YOU REMEMBER THE, THEY DECIDED
TO DROP THE TAX ON TOBACCO IN
ORDER TO GET AROUND SMUGGLING OR
SOMETHING.
SURE ENOUGH, SMOKING INCREASED.
WELL, THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING,
THAT'S A BAD THING.
AND I THINK IT'S THE SAME THING.
USING MORE GASOLINE ISN'T A GOOD
THING, IT'S A BAD THING.
WE'VE GOT TO FIND SOME WAYS OF
TRY OGG TO REDUCE THAT USE TO
ACTUALLY SAVE OURSELVES IN TERMS
OF WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE
ENVIRONMENT.

Maureen says OKAY, LET'S GO TO
DOUG IN PETERBOROUGH.
HI DOUG.

The Caller says HI, HOW'S IT GOING?

Maureen says FINE, THANKS WHAT DO
YOU THINK?

The Caller says WELL I STARTED OUT
WITH ONE QUESTION BUT NOW I'VE
GOT A COUPLE.
BACK WAY BACK WHEN, I CAN STILL
REMEMBER WHEN THE BIG OIL
COMPANIES SAID “HEY, LET'S BUILD
KIOSKS AND WE'RE GOING TO LOWER
THE PRICE OF GAS BECAUSE WE
DON'T HAVE AS MANY PEOPLE TO PAY
AS MUCH BIG BUILDINGS, THE HEAT,
AND WE JUST HAVE THIS LITTLE
BUILDING NOW AND WE CAN KEEP THE
PRICES RIGHT DOWN,” WELL WITHIN
ABOUT TWO YEARS AFTER THAT THE
PRICE STARTED JUMPING.
I CAN STILL REMEMBER THAT.
BUT AS FAR AS LABOUR DAY GOES,
GAS HERE IN PETERBOROUGH WAS
AROUND 76 TO 78.
WE TOOK A TRIP DOWN TO OTTAWA,
HALFWAY TO OTTAWA IT WAS 69.
NOW I MEAN THAT'S A HECK OF A
DIFFERENCE.

Maureen says YEAH, AND DO YOU
THINK THAT'S THE PRIVATE GAS
STATION OWNER JUST, YOU KNOW,
BALKING THE TREND?

The Caller says WELL IF HE CAN MAKE A PROFIT
AT 69 HOW MUCH PROFIT IS BEING
MADE AT 77, 78.
NOW THAT'S GOUGING.
I'VE GOT NO PROBLEMS WITH
SOMEBODY MAKING A PROFIT, BUT
WHEN THEY START GOUGING YOUR
EYEBALLS OUT, I MEAN THAT'S,
THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

Maureen says BUT WHO DO YOU BLAME
FOR THAT, IS MY QUESTION?

The Caller says I BLAME BOTH
GOVERNMENT AND OIL COMPANIES ON
THAT THERE'S NO REASON WHY -- I
MEAN THEY JUST HAD A 12 BILLION
EXTRA IN THE GOVERNMENT COVERS.
WHY ARE WE PAYING THIS MUCH
TAXES -- ALMOST HALF THE PRICE
OF GAS IS TAXES.
AND I MEAN, THERE'S NO WAY WE
SHOULD BE PAYING THAT MUCH!
NOW AS FAR AS INFLATING OUR
HOMES -- INSULATING OUR HOMES
EXTRA, I LIVE OUT IN THE COUNTRY
I'VE GOT NO CHOICE BUT TO DRIVE.
IF I WANT TO GO INTO
PETERBOROUGH, IT'S A 25 MINUTE
DRIVE TO GO GROCERY SHOPPING OR
GET MY MAIL OR ANYTHING, BUT AS
FAR AS INSULATING THE HOMES MORE
YOU FORGET, IT'S FINE TO
INSULATE BUT THERE'S STILL ALL
THAT BIG PROCESS.
THE INSULATION HAS TO BE TRUCKED
TO THE STORES, INSULATION, THEY
HAVE TO HEAT THE BUILDINGS WHERE
THEY'RE MAKING THE INSULATION.
LIKE IT'S A NEVER-ENDING THING.
THERE'S NO WAY THAT YOU CAN STOP
USING GAS OR OIL OR ANYTHING
LIKE THAT.

Maureen says WELL, WHAT DO YOU
THINK, JOHN?

John says NO, IN FACT YOU CAN'T.
YOU START INSULATING A BUILDING,
YOU REDUCE YOUR ENERGY USE, AND
THAT GOES RIGHT THROUGH THE
CYCLE.

Maureen says HIS POINT, I GUESS,
IS THAT JUST MANUFACTURING THE
INSULATION, BUT AT LEAST I GUESS
YOU CAN AGREE, THAT YOU DO THAT
ONCE, ONCE YOU GET THE
INSULATION IN IT'S GOOD FOR --

John says SURE, AND IN
FACT THE KINDS OF INSULATION CAN
REDUCE USE OF ENERGY VERY, VERY
SIGNIFICANTLY.
95, 96 percent REDUCTIONS IN THE AMOUNT
OF ENERGY THAT'S USED FOR
HEATING BUILDINGS.
I MEAN IT'S -- THIS IS NOT
MAGIC.
AND PEOPLE ARE NOW DOING IT.
AND IN TORONTO, THE CITY HAS
BEEN RUNNING A PROGRAMME TO HELP
THE OWNERS OF COMMERCIAL
BUILDINGS INSULATE THEIR
BUILDINGS BETTER IN ORDER TO
REDUCE ENERGY.
AND AS WELL, WE COULD HAVE
USEFUL GOVERNMENT PROGRAMMES
THAT WOULD END SAVING US AN OUFL
LOT OF MONEY.

Maureen says OKAY, AND WHAT ABOUT
HIS POINT THAT ALMOST 50 percent OF THE
PRICE OF GAS IS GOVERNMENT
TAXES?

John says OKAY, YEAH.
OKAY.

Maureen says YOU DON'T MIND THAT?

John says NO, THAT DOESN'T
BOTHER ME.
I MEAN IF WE'RE GOING TO
COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PRICE -- WHAT
ABOUT THE PRICE OF MILK?
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT'S TWICE --
IT'S A PRIORITY QUESTION HERE.

Tom says I WOULD THINK,
YOU KNOW, THAT -- I MEAN, PEOPLE
GET IRRITATED BY THE TAXATION ON
GAS IN PART BECAUSE GOVERNMENTS
AREN'T USING THE TAX FOR
ANYTHING THAT'S PARTICULAR.
I MEAN, THEY'RE NOT TAXING GAS
BECAUSE THEY WANT CANADA TO MEET
THE KYOTO ACCORDS, THEY'RE
TAXING GASOLINE BECAUSE THEY CAN
GET AWAY WITH IT.
BECAUSE THEY CAN MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY ON IT.
I THINK MAYBE THAT'S WHY PEOPLE
LIKE YOUR CALLER RESENT IT.
IF GOVERNMENTS WERE ACTUALLY
USING THE TAXES ON GASOLINE TO
DEVELOP THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT
WOULD REDUCE ENERGY USE, I THINK
PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE AMENABLE TO
PAYING IT AND THEY'D SAY OKAY,
IN THE FUTURE THEN -- DO YOU
REMEMBER THERE WAS A WHOLE FUSS
ABOUT THE TRAIN BETWEEN TORONTO
AND PETERBOROUGH?
I MEAN THERE'S A PETERBOROUGH
EXAMPLE.
VIA CUT THEIR TRAIN TO
PETERBOROUGH AND I THINK
REINSTATED IT AT ONE POINT, CUT
IT AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE WHERE IT
IS NOW.
BUT GOVERNMENTS DON'T DO THAT
KIND OF THING --

John says SOME OF THEM DO.
IN ALBERTA AS AN EXAMPLE THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT NOW HAS AN
AGREEMENT WITH CITIES THERE TO
TURN OVER A PART OF THE TAX ON
GASOLINE TO ALL THE
MUNICIPALITIES.

Maureen says WELL, TO BE USED FOR WHAT?

John says TRANSPORTATION.

Maureen says IT HAS TO BE USED
FOR TRANSPORTATION?

John says YES AND MOST OF
IT WILL BE USED FOR PUBLIC
TRANSPORTATION.
IN EDMONTON THEY'RE GETTING IN
THE ORDER OF 60 MILLION dollars A YEAR.
THEY'RE PUTTING ALMOST ALL OF IT
NOT ALL OF IT BUT ALMOST ALL OF
IT INTO PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION
AND THE SAME IN CALGARY AND
OTHER CITIES.
AND THAT'S AN EXAMPLE WHERE I
THINK THEY'RE MANAGING TO DEAL
WITH THE KINDS OF CRITICISM THAT
PEOPLE HAVE.
AND IF THE TAX WAS ACTUALLY IN
ONTARIO OR ANY OTHER PROVINCE,
WAS ACTUALLY PUT INTO
TRANSPORTATION-RELATED THINGS, I
THINK PEOPLE WOULD SAY I
UNDERSTAND THAT.
OKAY, THAT MAKES SENSE.
THERE'S SOME LINK THERE.

Maureen says REMEMBER WHEN THE
G.S.T. WAS JUST SUPPOSED TO PAY
DOWN THE DEBT?
THIS IDEA OF DEDICATES A --
DEDICATING A TAX SO SOMETHING
AND MAKING IT MORE PALATABLE BUT
WE NEVER CHECK AFTERWARDS AND
SEE DID THEY ACTUALLY USE THE
MONEY FOR THAT.
RAY IS IN TORONTO.

The Caller says HI THERE.

Maureen says WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The Caller says I THINK A LOT OF
THING, BUT I LOVE BOTH JOHN AND
TOM THERE.
JOHN, THIS IS SORT OF A QUESTION
WHY DO THINGS TAKE SO DARNED LONG
TO CHANGE?
WE HAD AN ENERGY CRISIS IN THE
EARLY '70s, WE'VE GOT THINNING
OZONE, INCREASE IN CHILDHOOD
ASTHMA, THIS AND THAT, HOW COME
IT TAKES SO LONG FOR US TO
CHANGE OUR HABITS AND, YOU KNOW,
TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT MIGHT BE
CAUSING IT, LIKE BURNING
GASOLINE AND OIL PRODUCTS.

John says YEAH.
THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT'S THE
REALLY DISCOURAGING THING.
WHEN IT SEEMS TO STARE YOU RIGHT
IN THE FACE THAT IT'S CAUSING
TROUBLE.
WHY DON'T WE LEARN?
I DON'T KNOW, BUT I THINK THAT
HIGH PRICES IS AN OPPORTUNITY
FOR US TO LEARN.
I MEAN, THE PRICING MECHANISM
HELPS US TO STAND BACK AND SAY
“WAIT A SECOND.”
BECAUSE THERE'S NO QUESTION WE
AREN'T DOING WELL OUT OF THIS.
AND I THINK THAT WE ALL TEND TO
PERSONALIZE AND SAY “WELL IT'S
ONLY ME,” WHEN IN FACT NO, IT'S
ALL OF US.
AND CUMULATIVELY WE'RE HAVING A
REALLY NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE
ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH WE'RE
LIVING.

Maureen says TRUE, BUT EVEN -- I
REMEMBER TALKING TO DAVID SUZUKI
ABOUT THIS.
HE SAYS ON OUR OWN INDIVIDUALLY
THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT WE CAN
DO ABOUT GLOBAL WARPING.
HE SAID WE HAVE TO USE POLITICAL
ACTIVISM TO GET CHANGE --

John says I DON'T QUARREL
WITH THAT.
WE DO HAVE TO USE POLITICAL
ACTIVISM BUT I THINK THE POINT
THE CALLER'S MAKING IS WE DON'T
SEEM TO HAVE ANY ON THIS ISSUE.
YOU KNOW JUST GOVERNMENT SAYING
LET'S REDUCE THE TAXES, LOWER
THE COST OF GASOLINE, INSTEAD OF
GOING THE OPPOSITE WAY.

Maureen says RAY, WOULD YOU USE
THIS AS AN ELECTION ISSUE?
WOULD IT MATTER TO YOU WHAT YOUR
CANDIDATE WAS GOING TO DO ABOUT
ENERGY AND CONSTABLE SFLAIGS.

The Caller says I MEAN A SIMPLE
SUGGESTION FARCE GAS PRICES GO,
FOR GASOLINE SOLD WITHIN THE
MUNICIPALITY OF TORONTO, A PENNY
OFF OF EACH LITRE, IF EVERY
TORONTONIAN KNEW WHERE THAT
PENNY WAS GOING TOWARDS, YOU
KNOW, TRANSIT, FIXING UP THE
ROADS, ENCOURAGING CYCLING, YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE NEED A SAFE PLACE
TO LEAVE THEIR BIKE WHEN THEY
RIDE TO WORK EVERYDAY.
YOU KNOW THAT SORT OF THING --
OH, THERE'S MY TWO-YEAR-OLD ON
THE OTHER END.

Maureen says ON THE OTHER LINE.
I WONDER WHAT SHE THINKS OF THE
PRICE OF GAS.
ALL RIGHT WE'LL LET YOU GO.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THE CALL.
HERE'S AN INTERESTING SITUATION
FROM R. IN GUELPH.

She reads from a nearby computer screen and says
“AS A STAY AT HOME MOM WHO HAS
FINANCED THIS BY RENTING ROOMS
TO STUDENTS, I FIND IT DIFFICULT
TO CONTROL OIL AND GAS COSTS.
WE HAVE UPGRADED ALL THE WINDOW,
WE'RE FULLY INSULATED.
NORMALLY I KEEP THE THERMOSTAT A
DEGREE OR TWO LOWER AND WEAR
HEAVIER CLOTHING AND SLIPPERS
INDOORS.
WITH TENANTS, HOWEVER, I HAVE TO
PUT UP WITH REGULATIONS THAT
TELL ME HOW WARM THE HOUSE MUST
BE KEPT AND THEN PUT UP WITH
OPEN WINDOWS FOR TENANTS WHO
WISH BOTH WARM AND FRESH AIR
DURING THE WINTER MONTHS.
JUST TO COMMENT ON WHY I FEEL I
WON'T BE ABLE TO REDUCE MY FUEL
BILL ANY FURTHER.”

John says WELL IT SOUNDS
LIKE SHE'S MADE A GOOD START IN
REDUCING BY DOING THE
INSULATION.
I GUESS THE QUESTION IS WHAT'S
THE QUALITY THAT -- YOU KNOW,
WHAT'S THE LEVEL TO WHICH IT'S
BEEN DONE?

Maureen says WHAT ABOUT TENANTS
THOUGH?
CAN YOU TALK TO THEM --

John says NO, PEOPLE ARE
PEOPLE.
AND ME, YOU CAN TRY AND SAY BE
REASONABLE PLEASE AND SOME OF
THEM WILL AND SOME OF THEM
WON'T.
NO, I MEAN THAT'S ALWAYS GOING
TO BE A PROBLEM.
BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS YOU CAN
PHYSICALLY SECURE THE EXTERIORS
OF BUILDINGS TO SUBSTANTIALLY
REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF LOSS THAT'S
CAUSED BY ENERGY, BY HEAT.

Tom says LET'S FACE IT, THIS IS A
COLD COUNTRY.
WE LIVE IN A COLD COUNTRY.
SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET RID OF
THE NEED TO HEAT OUR HOUSES,
EVER.
AND PROBABLY WILL HAVE TO HEAT
THEM WITH STUFF LIKE OIL AND
GAS.
OR WOOD OR WHATEVER.
BUT IT'S NOT EVEN THAT SUNNY ALL
THE TIME HERE, SO --

Maureen says YOU GUYS MUST
REMEMBER THE ENERGY CRISIS --
YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT IT THE
OTHER DAY -- THE ENERGY CRISIS
OF THE '70s AND WHAT DID THEY
AND US TO KEEP OUR THERMOSTATS
AT?

John says OH, THAT'S RIGHT, THEY PULLED
IT DOWN TO 63 degrees OR SOMETHING.

Maureen says I THOUGHT IT WAS
EVEN 66 degrees OR 68 degrees WHICH I FIND
THAT VERY COMFORTABLE NOW.

Tom says 68 degrees IS NORMAL, ROOM
TEMPERATURE, I THINK IT WAS A
BIT LOWER, BUT YEAH, YOU CAN DO
ALL OF THAT STUFF, BUT THE
PERSON WHO WROTE YOU THE E-MAIL,
JOHN'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
YOU'VE GOT TENNANTS AND THEY HAVE
DIFFERENT NEEDS.
SOME PEOPLE GET COLDER MORE
EASILY, SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO HAVE
FRESH AIR.
THERE'S NOTHING MUCH YOU CAN DO
ABOUT THAT.
YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE
HEATING COSTS IN A COUNTRY LIKE
CANADA.
YOU CAN INSULATE AND YOU CAN TRY
TO USE, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THINGS
LIKE SOLAR ENERGY WHEN WE DO
HAVE SUNSHINE, WHICH REQUIRES
CAPITAL COSTS.
I MEAN THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS
THAT YOU CAN DO.
BUT ULTIMATELY, YOU'RE GOING TO
BE BUYING SOMETHING LIKE OIL OR
GAS OR STOKING A WOOD STOVE IN
THIS COUNTRY.

John says YEAH, YOU JUST
DON'T WANT IT LEAKING OUT.
AND MOST OF THE PLACES WE LIVE,
IT LEAKS OUT AT AN ENORMOUS
RATE.
AND WE SHOULD BE TRYING TO STOP
THAT WE'LL ALL BE BETTER OFF IF
WE MANAGE TO STOP THAT.

Maureen says OKAY.
LET'S GO TO RICHARD IN TORONTO
NEXT.
HI RICHARD.
OH, SORRY, YOU'RE IN COCHRANE.
HI, RICHARD.

The Caller says OH, I THOUGHT YOU HAD
THE WRONG CALL.

Maureen says ANOTHER ONE, YEAH,
SORRY.
GO AHEAD.

The Caller says WELL YOU'VE ALREADY
COVERED A FEW POINTS I WAS
INTERESTED IN THERES AND ONE OF
THEM WAS THE PRICE GOUGING.
THERE WAS A CHAP I THINK IT WAS
FROM PETERBOROUGH WAS TALKING
ABOUT THAT?

Maureen says MM-HMM.

The Caller says I LIVE IN COCHRANE
AND WE'RE ABOUT AN HOUR NORTH OF
TIMMINS AND THE PRICE VARIES.
RIGHT NOW IT'S TWO OR THREE
CENTS A LITRE HIGHER THAN IT IS
HERE IN TIMMINS AND IT'S BEEN AS
HIGH AS 8 OR 10 CENTS A LITRE
DIFFERENCE.
SO I MEAN, IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS
WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.
I MEAN, I DON'T HAVE TOX
SOMEBODY MAKING AN HONEST PROFIT
ON AN HONEST BUSINESS.
I DON'T HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO
PAYING TAX.
THERE'S GOING TO BE TAXES ON
FUEL AND STUFF.
I MEAN WE ALL USE THE ROADS, WE
ALL WANT DOCTORS IN THE
HOSPITALS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA,
SO I DON'T MIND PAGE FOR THAT.
BUT IT'S WHEN YOU'RE GETTING
RIPPED OFF AT THE BUMPS -- PUMPS
OR WHEN YOU'RE GETTING RIPPED
OFF AND YOU'RE DRIVING DOWN THE
ROAD AND PARTS ARE DOWNSING OUT
OF YOUR VEHICLE BECAUSE OF THE
CONDITION OF THE ROADS, ET
CETERA.
IT'S JUST A BLATANT RIP-OFF.
AND AS FAR AS -- YOU KNOW I
THINK IT WAS Mr. SEWELL WAS
TALKING ABOUT CONSERVATION AND
ALTERNATIVES TO GASOLINE, THAT'S
GREAT IDEA.
BUT FOR THE MOMENT IT'S NOT
PRACTICAL.
WHEN IT BECOMES PRACTICAL AND WE
CAN ALL GO OUT AND SPEND 40 OR
50 dollars A PIECE ON A BRAND NEW
VEHICLE LIKE THIS THEN IT'LL BE
PRACTICAL.
BUT UNTIL THEN, WE HAVE TO MAKE
DO WITH WHAT WE HAVE.
NOW THE BASIC PROBLEM IN THE
WORLD IS NOT JUST THE FACT THAT
YOU AND I DRIVE AROUND AND HAVE
A LITTLE EXHAUST COMING OUT OF
OUR CARS.
IT'S THE FACT THAT YOU'RE
MULTIPLYING IT BY HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF TIMES.
YOU HAVE FLARES IN THE OIL
PATCH.
THEY'RE FLARING OFF SOUR GAS FOR
PRODUCTION REASONS.
THERE'S -- THE SPACE SHUTTLE
TAKES OFF EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE
AND IT BURNS A HELL OF A LOT OF
FUEL AND MAKES A LOT OF SMOKE.
WE'VE GOT THE RAINFORESTS BEING
BURNED DOWN.
I MEAN YOU CAN POINT THE FINGER
AT A THOUSAND WAYS AND THIS
WHOLE WORLD IS IN DEEP TROUBLE.
AND BASICALLY WHAT'S GOTTA
COME -- WHAT'S GOTTA COME DOWN
IS THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD,
OR ELSE WE'RE ALL DOOMED.

Maureen says WELL, YOU KNOW --

The Caller says AND THIS TEARY THAT
THE POLITICIANS IN BIG BUSINESS
HAVE OF UNLIMITED GROWTH IS NOT
WORKABLE.
AND YOU TALK ABOUT DAVID SUZUKI.
I'VE BEEN WATCHING HIM FOR A
LONG TIME, HE'S BEEN SAYING THE
SAME THING.
A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY IT.
EVERYBODY KNOWS IT.
AND NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

Maureen says OKAY, JOHN, YOU WANT
TO --

John says IT'S NOT JUST A
GLOBAL PROBLEM, IT'S A LOCAL
PROBLEM.
I AGREE THAT THERE ARE BIG
GLOBAL ISSUES, BUT AGAIN, JUST
TO TAKE TORONTO, AND I THINK THE
FIGURES WILL APPLY TO OTHER
CITIES WHERE THEY SAY ABOUT A
THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR DIE
BECAUSE OF THE AIR QUALITY,
MOSTLY CAUSED BY SMOG FROM
AUTOMOBILES, CLEARLY, IF WE
REDUCE THAT SMOG, NOT AS MANY
PEOPLE WOULD BE DYING.
WE'D ALL IN TORONTO BE BETTER
OFF.
NO MATTER WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
THE REST OF THE WORLD, WE'D ALL
BE BETTER OFF.
WE KNOW THE SAME THING HAS
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM,
WHERE THEY INTRODUCED THE CLEAN
AIR ACT IN THE, I GUESS IT WAS
THE LATE 1950s, WHERE THE AIR
QUALITY WAS AWFUL, THEY BROUGHT
IN A LAW SAYING WE'RE GOING TO
CHANGE IT AND IN FACT IT'S --

Maureen says BUT DO WE NOT HAVE
SOME SYMPATHY FOR THE GUY UP IN
COCHRANE THOUGH WHO -- THERE'S
NOT PUBLIC TRANSIT TO SPEAK OF
UP THERE.
AND HE'S STILL PAGE THESE
HIGH GAS SURPRISES.
AND AS HE POINTS OUT, THEY'RE
HIGHER FOR HIM THAN FOR ANYBODY
ELSE.
THE THING THOUSAND TALK ABOUT,
WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO SEE THOSE
APPLIED TO THE BIG URBAN CENTRES
WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A
DIFFERENCE TOMORROW?

John says SURE, BUT IF WE
HAD REALLY GOOD TRANSPORTATION
BETWEEN COCHRANE AND TIMMINS AND
KIRKLAND LAKE AND ALL THOSE
PLACES SO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TO
USE A VEHICLE, WOULDN'T THAT BE
NICE.
OR GOOD WAYS OF SHIPPING STUFF
BETWEEN THEM.
I MEAN, YOU GO ON THE HIGHWAY
NOW AND HALF THE VEHICLES ARE
THESE GIANT BIG TRUCKS.

Tom says WELL I GUESS A
COUPLE OF POINTS.
I GREW UP AROUND TIMMINS, SO I
KNOW THE AREA A LITTLE BIT AND I
MEAN, THERE'S -- THE CALLER'S
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THE PRICE
OF GASOLINE.
IF YOU DRIVE UP HIGHWAY 11 GOING
NORTH, YOU'LL HIT -- LET'S SAY
GASOLINE'S GOING ABOUT 74 CENTS,
75 CENTS NOW THESE DAYS, UP TO
ABOUT A PLACE CALLED SOUTH RIVER
JUST SOUTH OF NORTH BAY, THAT'S
USUALLY THE CUT-OFF POINT.
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT RISES
ABOUT TWO OR THREE CENTS, JUST
WITHIN A PERIOD OF A MILE AND IT
STAYS THAT WAY UP FOR A WHILE
AND THEN RISES ANOTHER FIVE
CENTS OR SOMETHING WHEN YOU GET
UP TO COCHRANE.
SO THE WAY THAT THE OIL
COMPANIES PRICE GASOLINE --
BECAUSE THIS IS -- YOU KNOW, GAS
IS DELIVERED BY JUST FUEL OIL
COMPANIES -- IS ACTUALLY PRETTY
DODGY.
THEY HAVE THESE AREAS, AND IN
PARTS OF NORTHERN ONTARIO, THEY
ALWAYS CHARGE HIGHER PRICES.
MUCH HIGHER PRICES, I SUSPECT,
THAN JUST THE COST OF DELIVERING
THE STUFF.

Maureen says YOU THINK SO, EH?

Tom says YOU BET SO THAT
IS A REAL PROBLEM.
BUT JOHN'S ALSO GOT A POINT.
WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP IN
TIMMINS, THERE'S PRETTY GOOD
TRAIN SERVICE DOWN TO TORONTO.
AND THROUGH THE O.N.R., THE
ONTARIO NORTHLAND RAILWAY.
AND IF WE CAME DOWN TO TORONTO,
FOR EXAMPLE, OR ANYWHERE DOWN
THE LIP, WE'D TAKE THE TRAIN.
IT WAS PRETTY CONVENIENT.
IT WAS NOT EXACTLY FAST BUT NOT
REALLY SLOW, AND IT WAS ON TIME.
THERE IS NO TRAIN TO TIMMINS
NOW.
I'M NOT SURE IF THE TRAIN STILL
GOES TO COCHRANE OR NOT BUT
THERE'S NO TRAIN TO TIMMINS
ANYMORE.
SO THERE ARE CHOICES THAT YOU
CAN MAKE PUBLICLY.
NOW YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO HAVE,
TO DEVELOP A PUBLIC TRANSIT
SYSTEM IN COCHRANE.
IT'S A SMALL PLACE.
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A VERY GOOD
ONE IN TIMMINS, WHICH IS A
BIGGER PLACE.
BUT YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE SOME
FORMS OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION
BETWEEN THE TOWNS IN NORTHERN
ONTARIO THAT WOULD HELP TO CUT
DOWN THE AMOUNT -- I MEAN,
PEOPLE WOULD, PEOPLE FIND IT
MORE CONVENIENT IF THE BUSES
WORK OR THE TRAINS WORK THAN TO
TAKE THEIR OWN CARS ALL THE
TIME.
THEY'RE GOING TO USE THE CARS A
LOT BECAUSE THESE ARE SMALL
PLACE, BIG DISTANCES.
BUT THEY COULD USE PUBLIC
INFRASTRUCTURE MORE IF THERE WAS
ONE, BUT THERE ISN'T.

Maureen says THERE ISN'T.

John says THERE ISN'T, NO,
WHICH SEEMS TO ME TO BE A
PROBLEM.
I THINK THE OTHER PROBLEM IS
THIS says GASOLINE IS A COST OF
RUNNING A VEHICLE, BUT THERE'S A
WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER COSTS.
YOU GOT TO PAY FOR THE THING,
YOU GOT TO GET IT FIXED ALL THE
TIME.
IT'D BE INTERESTING.
WHAT IS GASOLINE?
IS IT MAYBE A QUARTER OF THE
COST OF RUNNING A VEHICLE AT THE
END OF THE DAY?

Maureen says I'M SURE IT'S A
BIG --

John says YOU KNOW, AND
THE OTHER THREE-QUARTERS GOES...
YOU KNOW, AND THE OTHER THING IS
SUPPOSE GASOLINE IS A CENTRE TO
MORE A LEADER.
SO HOW FAR DOES A NORMAL VEHICLE
GO NOW FOR -- WHAT IS IT, 30
KILOMETRE, 35 KILOMETERS FOR A
LITRE OF GASOLINE?
I MEAN IS THAT WHAT IT IS?
SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS
IS REALLY SMALL STUFF.
AND IN THE SCHEME OF THE TOTAL
COSTS THAT YOU'RE PAYING, IT'S
VERY, VERY SMALL.
I MEAN, YOUR INSURANCE IS NOT
GOING DOWN AS WE KNOW, IT'S
GOING UP.
THE COST OF BUYING VEHICLES AND
GETTING THEM REPAIRED, THEY'RE
GOING UP.
AND IT'S THIS ONE THING THAT WE
HAVE TO DO.
I MEAN IT'S -- I GUESS IF WE HAD
TAKEN OUT OF OUR BANK ACCOUNT ON
A MONTHLY BASIS THE COST OF
GASOLINE WE WOULDN'T QUITE
NOTICE IT AS MUCH.

Maureen says YEAH, EXACTLY.
ALL RIGHT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
THE PRICE OF GASOLINE THESE DAYS
IN ONTARIO AND AROUND THE WORLD.
WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT, IF
ANYTHING, YOU THINK OUGHT TO BE
DOUBLE.
DO YOU THINK YOU COULD LIVE
WITHOUT YOUR CAR, AT LEAST FOR A
FEW DAYS A WEEK?
AND WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE
TAXES GO?
SHOULD THEY STAY THE SAME?
DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT
OUGHT TO INTERVENE?
GIVE US A CALL IN TORONTO

The phone numbers and email reappear briefly.

Maureen says WE HAVE AN E-MAIL
ABOUT CHANGING AND OTHER
ALTERNATIVES.
“HOW MANY INTERESTS MUST
COALESCE FOR DIRECTIONS TO
DISMAING AS I REMEMBER THE FALL
OF 1973 AND THE OIL CRISIS THAT
MADE IT MEMORABLE, WE TALKED AND
TALKED ABOUT ALTERNATIVE SOURCES
OF FUEL.
WE TURNED DOWN OUR THERMOSTATS,
UNPLUGGED OUTDOOR CHRISTMAS
LIGHTS, OFFICE TOWERS LIT
ALTERNATIVE FLOORS DURING THE
NIGHT.
THE DISADVANTAGES OF DEPENDENCE
ON OIL WERE CLEAR.
I THOUGHT THE AND IMAGINATION TO
CHANGE WERE THERE.
WERE THEY?
WHAT HAPPENED TO ATTITUDES IN
THE '80s AND '90s?
HOW IS THIS SITUATION NOW
DIFFERENT?
WILL WE MUDDLE THROUGH AND
FORGET ZEN.”

Tom says I'LL TELL YOU ONE
THING THAT HAPPENED IS THAT THE
PRICE OF OIL WENT DOWN AGAIN
AFTER THE ENERGY CRISIS.
IN REAL TERMS, IF YOU ADJUST FOR
INFLATION, THE PRICE WENT UP IN
'73 AND '74 AND AGAIN ABOUT '77
AND WENT DOWN AGAIN.
IT WENT UP AGAIN DURING THE
IRAN-IRAQ WAR AND WENT DOWN
AGAIN.
AND THE CALLER'S ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT.
WHEN PRICES WERE HIGH AND WE
THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO --
AND REMEMBER IN THOSE ENERGY
CRISES, WE THOUGHT THEY WERE
GOING TO STAY HIGH FOR A LONG
TIME.
THEY THOUGHT THIS WAS PERMANENT.
AND SO PEOPLE STARTED TO DO
THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
AND THE CAR COMPANIES STARTED TO
MAKE MORE FUEL-EFFICIENT CARS,
AND BUSINESSES STARTED TO
RE-EVALUATE HOW THEY, AS THE, AS
YOUR CORRESPONDENT SAYS, LIGHT
THEIR BUILDINGS.
WE STARTED TO LOOK MORE AT
PUBLIC TRANSIT AND RIDING
BICYCLES AND IN-FILL DEVELOPMENT
BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT WAS
GOING -- THE PRICE OF ENERGY WAS
GOING TO STAY HIGH FOR A LONG
TIME BUT IT DIDN'T IT.
WENT DOWN AGAIN.

Maureen says AND WE WENT RIGHT
BACK TO OUR OLD WAYS.

Tom says AND WHEN IT WENT
DOWN AGAIN, WE WENT RIGHT BACK.
BECAUSE THE CAR'S A CONVENIENT
THING TO HAVE IF YOU CAN AFFORD
IT.

Maureen says WHAT WE GOING TO DO,
JOHN?
WHAT'S IT GOING TO TAKE?
I MEAN, POLLUTING THE WORLD,
THIS WHOLE IDEA THAT SKIN CANCER
RATES HAVE GONE UP AND, YOU KNOW
THAT -- IT USED TO BE CONSERVING
OIL WAS THE FOCUS IN THE '70s.
NOW IT'S PRESERVE THE PLANET.
BUT DO YOU THINK THAT WE'LL BE
ANY DIFFERENT --

John says I DON'T KNOW.
I MEAN I LOOK AROUND POLITICALLY
AND SAY “SO WHERE'S THE
POLITICAL LEADERSHIP ON THIS ISSUE?”
WELL IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THERE.
I MEAN THERE'S PEOPLE AT THE
FRINGES WHO ARE TALKING ABOUT IT
IN MY OPINION, MAKING VERY, VERY
PERSUASIVE ARGUMENTS, BUT I
DON'T SEE THE LEADING POLITICAL
PARTIES SAYING ENERGY QUESTIONS
OR KYOTO AGREEMENT THAT CANADA
SIGNED, THIS IS ALL CRITICAL,
WE'VE GOT TO TAKE GOOD, STRONG
ACTION.
I DON'T SEE IT HAPPENING SO I'M
VERY WORRIED.
I MEAN, I'M WONDERING, ARE WE
LOSING OUR POLITICAL MECHANISMS
THAT ALLOWED THOSE THINGS TO
COME ONTO THE AGENDA AND BE BIG
ISSUES AND THEN THEY FADED AWAY
AND WE'RE BACK INTO THAT THING,
THAT PRICING SEEMS TO BE A
MECHANISM THAT GETS PEOPLE'S
ATTENTION, AND I'D LIKE TO USE
IT IN THAT WAY.

Maureen says OAK, SUSAN IS IN
LONDON.
HELLO, SUSAN.

The Caller says OH GOOD AFTERNOON,
MAUREEN.

Maureen says HI.

The Caller says I CAN SAY THAT I COMPLETELY
AGREE WITH WHAT JOHN'S SAYING
ABOUT LACK OF POLITICAL
LEADERSHIP.
I'M NOT LOOKING FOR LOWER GAS
PRICES AND IN LISTENING TO THE
DEBATE I'M REMEMBERING I'VE HAD
MY DRIVER'S LICENSE FOR 28 YEARS
AND I'VE NEVER OWNED A CAR.
I'VE ALWAYS LIVED IN A HOUSEHOLD
WHERE THERE WAS A CAR.
I'M LOOKING HERE IN ONTARIO
THOUGH FOR A SOLUTION.
I DON'T LOOK TO THE FEDERAL
LEVEL.
COMMERCIAL AIRLINE FUEL DOES NOT
AT THIS POINT IN TIME PAY A
PROVINCIAL RETAIL SALES TAX,
IT'S EXEMPT SO I THINK THERE'S A
LOT OF PLACES ON THE MARGINS TO
LOOK FOR SOME KIND OF DIFFERENT
SOLUTIONS.
IT'S TRUE THE FEDERAL GAS TAX IS
NOT A DEDICATED TAX, UNLESS WE
WANT TO LOOK AT THE MOST RECENT
PENSION SCHEME THEY VOTED FOR
LAST WEEK.
(LAUGHING)
AND I'D BE INTERESTED IN BOTH
JOHN AND TOM, IF -- ADDRESSING
WHAT WE CAN DO IN NON-G.T.A.
ONTARIO WITH RESPECT TO
PROVINCIAL RAIL LINE EASEMENTS AS
IN COMMUTER RAIL LINE EASEMENTS
AND THE PLANNING ACT.

John says YOU LIVE IN LONDON.
JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY, SUSAN,
WHEN YOU CAN'T USE THAT CAR IN
THAT HOUSEHOLD, HOW DO YOU GET
AROUND LONDON.

The Caller says WELL, I WALK, I DO
USE PUBLIC TRANSIT, I BICYCLE A
LITTLE BIT, BUT NOT MUCH.
MOSTLY, ACTUALLY TO GET AROUND
THE SUBURBS THAT I LIVE IN IS
THE AREA WHERE I BICYCLE.
WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN LONDON
BECAUSE THE MUNICIPAL COUNCIL
BENEFIT FROM A PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT PAYING THE CAPITAL
DOLLARS OF NATURAL GAS
COMPRESSION FOR OUR PUBLIC
TRANSIT SYSTEM AND NOW WE'VE HAD
THE DECISION-MAKERS AT CITY HALL
JUST TURN AROUND AND BUY DIESEL
FUEL BUSES.
SO FOR ALL THE STEPS BACKWARDS,
SOMETIMES IT'S HARD TO SEE SOME
OF THE LIGHT BREAKING THROUGH
THE COLD.
AND I HAVE TO SAY AT THE AGE OF
45, NEVER HAVING OWNED A CAR, I
DO HAVE PLANS TO OWN A CAR,
BECAUSE I WON'T WANT MY MOBILITY
CURTAILED COMPLETELY A FEW YEARS
FROM NOW.

Maureen says RIGHT, YEAH.

The Caller says BUT I CERTAINLY WANT
THE OPTION TO BUY OTHER KIND.
BUT MY QUESTION'S ABOUT THE
PLANNING ACT AND THE RAIL LINE
HE'SMENT IN THE PROVINCE BECAUSE
I DO NOT LOOK FOR FEDERAL
SOLUTIONS.

John says JUST ON THIS
POINT I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR
THAT OUR FAMILY HAS A CAR, TOO.
THAT IN FACT CARS ARE VERY, VERY
HANDY DEVICES BUT IT WOULD BE
REALLY NICE TO HAVE ALTERNATIVES
SO YOU DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO SAY
THE ONLY WAY OF GETTING AROUND
IS WITH AN AUTOMOBILE.
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE'RE
MISSING OUT ON THOSE.
FOR TOO MANY PEOPLE THEY MUST
DRIVE A CAR TO GET TO WHERE
THEY'RE GOING BECAUSE OF WHERE
THEY LIVE.

Maureen says A WHAT'S SHE TALKING
ABOUT, RAIL LINE EASEMENT?

John says ONE OF THE
PROBLEMS IS A LOT OF THE RAIL
LINES IN ONTARIO ARE BEING
ABANDONED.
THERE'S BEEN THIS EVEN NOWHERE
MUST CONTRACTION OF RAIL USE
DURING THE LAST 50 OR 60 YEARS,
AS WE ALL KNOW.
I MEAN, TOM MENTIONED, YOU CAN'T
TAKE A TRAIN VERY MANY PLACES
ANYMORE.
I WENT TO STRATFORD LAST SGIK
THOUGHT “WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN
NICE TO TAKE THE TRAIN RATHER
THAN THAT DUMB DRIVE.”

Maureen says ISN'T THERE A
TRAIN --

John says YEAH, THERE'S
ONE EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE BUT
THE POINT IS IT'S NOT GOOD,
REGULAR SERVICE.
I HAD TO GIVE A SPEECH TO
HAMILTON, I THOUGHT WOULDN'T TO
BE THIGHS TO TAKE A TRAIN?
WELL, SORRY, THEY'VE ONLY GOT
THREE TRAINS A DAY.
IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON.
THERE ARE A LOT OF RAIL LINES
THAT HAVE BEEN ABANDONED.
A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK WE
SHOULDN'T BE WASTING THOSE AS A
RESOURCE BUT WE SHOULD BE TRYING
PRESERVE THEM.
THEY'RE LONG, CONTINUOUS STRIPS
YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE FOR
OTHER THINGS AND ONE OF THE
THING, I THINK, IS TO TRY AND
FIGURE OUT HOW YOU ACTUALLY
RETAIN THEM.
THERE WAS A POLICY
RECOMMENDATION THAT WAS MADE
ABOUT A DECADE AGO TO THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT THAT THEY
SHOULD REQUIRE THAT THESE RAIL
LINES BE KEPT AS PUBLIC
EASEMENTS, SO WE CAN FIGURE OUT
WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE USED.
BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S MUCH
ATTENTION FOR THAT FROM THIS
GOVERNMENT.

Tom says WELL, OR FRANKLY FROM
MANY GOVERNMENTS.
IN SOME AREAS THE RAIL EASEMENTS
HAVE BEEN JUST PRIVATIZED.
SOLD TO NEIGHBOURING LAND OWNER,
AND A LOT HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO
SNOWMOBILE TRAILS.
ONE OF THE REAL PROBLEMS --
BECAUSE ONE OF THE REAL COSTS IN
RAIL TRANSIT, TRANSPORTATION IS
LAYING THE TRACK AND A LOT OF
THE EASEMENTS, ONE OF THE FIRST
THINGS THEY DID WAS TORE UP THE
TRACK AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DID
IN TIMMINS.
TORE UP THE TRACK AND LET THE
LOCAL RESIDENTS COME AND TAKE UP
THE TIES TO BUILD THE GARDENS
WITH SO IN THAT SENSE IT WAS
POLITICALLY POPULAR.
BUT ONCE YOU TAKE THE TRACK OUT
IT IS EXPENSIVE TO PUT IT BACK.
NOW THERE ARE SOME AREAS ALL
OVER NORTH AMERICA WHERE
SO-CALLED SHORT LINE RAILROADS
HAVE COME BACK INTO USE.
AND THEY'VE OFTEN BEEN UNDER
SOME KIND OF PRIVATE OWNERSHIP.
SOMEBODY WILL RUN A LINE FROM Y
TO X THAT HAS BEEN ABANDONED BY
CN OR CP --

Maureen says AS LONG AS IT'S
PROFITABLE.

Tom says AND MAKE SOME MONEY.

John says AND THEY'VE BEEN
ABLE TO DO IT.
THAT'S WHAT'S INTERESTING.

Tom says YOU CAN TRAVEL ALL OVER
SOUTHERN ONTARIO AND YOU'LL SEE
THESE EASEMENTS JOHN'S TALKING
ABOUT AND MORE OFTEN THAN NOT,
THERE'LL BE NO TRACK ONS THEM AT
ALL, BUT THERE'LL JUST BE A
RIDGE OF LAND GOING FROM, YOU
KNOW, LET'S SAY LISTWELL TO
WINGHAM OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
BUT THE TRACKS HAVEN'T BEEN TORN
UP.
IN A RATIONAL WORLD, A RATIONAL
GOVERNMENT AND A RATIONAL
SOCIETY WOULD ACTUALLY TRY TO
MAKE USE OF THESE.
WELL NO, MAKE USE OF ITS ASSETS,
BECAUSE THESE ARE PUBLIC
ASSETS IN A CERTAIN WAY.

Maureen says AND WOULD THAT COME
FROM THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
OR THE FEDERAL --

Tom says IT COULD BE PROVINCIAL, IF
IT'S INSIDE THE PROVINCE.

John says IT COULD BE
FEDERAL AS WELL.
THEY HAVE SOME CONTROLS.

Maureen says MIKE'S IN CHATHAM, I
THINK HE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT
TRAIN SERVICE, TOO.
HI MIKE.

The Caller says HOW ARE YOU?

Maureen says GOOD, THANKS.

The Caller says I'M SURE YOUR GUESTS HAVE
COME ACROSS MORE INFORMATION
THAN I HAVE ABOUT THE “SUPER
TRAIN” THAT WOULD RUN BETWEEN
THE WINDSOR QUEBEC CORRIDOR.
AND I'M ASKING MYSELF WHY?
WHO IS EVER GOING TO RIDE THIS
THING AS A PASSENGER?
AND I BRING UP THE POINT OF THIS
WE USED TO GO TO TORONTO FROM
CHATHAM, TO TORONTO SEVERAL
TIMES A YEAR.
AND WE USED TO TAKE THE TRAIN.
WELL, I JUST TRIED TO DO THAT
AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT COST
FOR MY WIFE AND MYSELF TO GO
FROM CHATHAM TO TORONTO RETURN?
WITH TAXES IT'S JUST UNDER 200 dollars.
NOW, I JUST -- I WILL NOT DO
THAT ANYMORE.
I'LL SPEND THE MONEY ON THE GAS
AND THE WEAR AND TEAR ON MY
VEHICLE AND I WILL DRIVE AND
THAT WILL BE THE END OF IT.
IT'S FAR MORE EFFICIENT FOR ME
TO DO IT THAT WAY.

Maureen says YEAH, I TOOK THE
TRAIN TO LONDON AND BACK ON A
CHEAP FARE TICKET --

The Caller says OH, THEY STILL HAVE THOSE, DO THEY?

Maureen says WELL I DON'T KNOW
HOW MUCH CHEAPER IT IS BUT IT
WAS OVER 60 dollars JUST FOR ME,
TORONTO TO LONDON.
AND I AGREE WITH MIKE, ALTHOUGH
I WILL SAY THE TRAIN WAS FULL.
YOU COULDN'T BUY A TICKET HALF
AN HOUR BEFORE IT LEFT IN LONDON
TO COME BACK TO TORONTO.
SO THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDENTS
USING IT, BUT THAT'S STILL --
IT'S UP THERE.

John says THAT'S THE CRAZY
THING ABOUT TRAIN TRAVEL NOW,
RIGHT?
A TRAIN'S FULL AS OPPOSED TO
THERE BEING EXTRA SPACE THAT YOU
COULD GET ON.

Maureen says YEAH, BUT DID WE
USED TO HAVE SUBSIDIES IN TRAIN
SERVICE A LONG TIME AGO AND THAT
HELPED KEEP PRICES DOWN?

John says IN RECENT TIMES
WE'VE HAD HEFTY HEFTY
SUBSIDIES --

Tom says OPERATING SUBSIDIES FROM
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THAT'S
NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR A LONG TIME.
IT ACTUALLY COSTAS LOT TO DRIVE
A CAR BETWEEN CHAM HAM AND
TORONTO, TOO.
NOW YOU WON'T, YOU WON'T SEE
THIS BECAUSE ALL YOU'RE PAYING
FOR IS THE GAS.
BUT IF --

Maureen says MIKE SAYS I KNOW
THERE'S WEAR AND TEAR ON MY CAR
BUT --

Tom says NO, NO, HE'S RIGHT.
THE TRAIN PRICES ARE TOTALLY OUT
OF BACK?
HOW DO YOU SOLVE SOMETHING LIKE
THIS?
I DON'T HAVE A MAGIC ANSWER, BUT
I THINK IF YOU, IF YOU HAD
GOVERNMENTS AND THE PUBLIC THAT
WAS INTERESTED IN SOLVING IT,
YOU COULD MOVE IN THAT
DIRECTION.
THE WHOLE -- VIA, THE TRAIN
SERVICE HAS JUST BEEN TRAGIC, OF
COURSE, BECAUSE ONE THE REASONS
THEY CHARGE SO MUCH IS BECAUSE
THEY HARDLY EVER HAVE, EXCEPT ON
YOUR TRAIN, ANY PASSENGERS SO
THEY'VE GOT THIS TREMENDOUS
OVERHEAD TO PAY FOR, AND LIMITED
AMOUNT OF TRAFFIC.
IT'S A NEGATIVE --

Maureen says IT'S A CIRCLE, YEAH.

John says AND JUST TO USE
THE EXAMPLE OF -- I MEAN, THE
PEARSON AIRPORT GENERATES 59
MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN TAX
MONEY OR SURPLUS MONEY FOR THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
IT LITERALLY JUST TAKES THAT AND
IT PROVIDES NO SERVICES, IT
TAKES THE MONEY OUT.
WOULDN'T THAT BE INTERESTING?
IF THEY SAID “YOU KNOW, MAYBE
THAT 59 MILLION dollars SHOULD GO INTO
TRANSPORTATION SERVICES” THAT
MIGHT ACTUALLY START TO COMPETE
WITH PEOPLE GETTING ONTO AIR
PLANES, WHICH AS SOMEBODY'S
MENTIONED, USES GASOLINE THAT
ISN'T TAXED, AND START TO
IMPROVE THOSE KINDS OF SERVICE
SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SAY GEE, YOU
KNOW, IT MIGHT BE WORTH WHILE
TAKING A TRAIN UP TO OTTAWA.
NOT ONE THAT TAKES FIVE HOURS
BUT MAYBE ONE THAT TAKES TWO AND
A HALF HOURS.

Tom says YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO
GO INTO TRAINS.
I MEAN, I HAPPEN TO LIKE TRAINS.
I THOUGHT THEY WERE KIND OF NEAT
WHEN THEY EXISTED IN THIS
COUNTRY.
AND OTHER COUNTRIES, FOR SOME
REASON, SEEM TO BE ABLE TO HAVE
THEM, INCLUDING THE UNITED
STATES SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY
WE CAN'T BUT YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE
TO GO THAT WAY.
BEFORE WE HAD DEREGULATED BUS
LINES IN THIS PROVINCE, YOU
COULD GO PLACES ON THE BUS!
AND YOU HAD DEFINITE SCHEDULES,
AND THEY WERE -- THIS IS NOT
VERY LONG AGO, RIGHT?
THIS IS WHAT, TEN, 15 YEARS AGO.
DEFINITE SCHEDULES, THEY ARRIVE
ON TIME, AND THE PRICING WAS
PRETTY GOOD.
IT'S VERY HARD NOW TO GET A BUS
TO GO ANYWHERE.

Maureen says AND THEY'RE MILK
RUNS WHEN YOU GET ON THEM.

Tom says THAT'S RIGHT, OR THEY
MAY NOT -- THEY MAY JUST CHANGE
THEIR SCHEDULE WHEN YOU GET ON.
IF YOU TRY AND GET ON THE BUS IN
TORONTO TO GO TO NIAGARA FALLS
AND SOMEBODY WANTS TO GO TO
GRIMSBY, WELL MAYBE THEY'LL GO
TO GRIMSBY ON THE WAY AND YOU'LL
GET TO NIAGARA FALLS A HALF AN
HOUR LATER.
BECAUSE BASICALLY THEY CAN DO
WHATEVER THEY LIKE.

Maureen says UNTIL WE MAKE THESE
OTHER ALTERNATIVES RELIABLE, YOU
KNOW, COST-EFFICIENT, AND HAVE
THEM COMPETE EXACTLY WITH USING
YOUR CAR, PEOPLE LIKE MIKE ARE
GOING TO --

Tom says WELL WHO'S GOING TO DO THAT?
MY EXAMPLE, WHO'S GOING TO TAKE
A BUS TO NIAGARA FALLS, IF
YOU'RE NEVER SURE WHAT TIME
YOU'RE GOING ARRIVE.

John says I'M BACK TO THE
QUESTION THE WOMAN FROM LONDON
WAS ASKING.
WHAT ABOUT PLANNING?
CLEARLY, IF WE ACTUALLY HAD A
PLAN TO START DEALING WITH THESE
ISSUES, OF LAND -- A LAND USE
PLAN THAT SAYS HOW DO WE START
LINKING UP PLACES TOGETHER, HOW
DO WE DESIGN COMMUNITIES SO THEY
THEY FORCE PEOPLE TO USE CARS
VERY INFREQUENTLY THAT THERE ARE
MANY BETTER ALTERNATE -- IF WE
ACTUALLY HAD THAT WE'D START TO
BE TALKING, YOU KNOW?
AND SO RATHER THAN JUST SORT OF
REACHING THIS PEAK WHERE THE
PRICE IS DRIVEN INTO US TALKING
ABOUT THESE ALTERNATIVES, WE CAN
ACTUALLY START TO PLAN THEM OUT.
WE DON'T HAVE THAT AND THAT'S
THE PROBLEM.

Maureen reads an email and says
“VAST IMPROVEMENTS COULD BE
MADE TO PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION IF
VIA RAIL, GO, AND MUNICIPAL
PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS
COULD BE COORDINATED.
RECENTLY KITCHENER AND
CAMBRIDGE'S PUBLIC BUS SERVICES
AMALGAMATED.
IF URBAN TRANSPORTATION WAS A
RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PROVINCE,
PERHAPS WE WOULD SEE BETTER
LINKAGES BETWEEN CITIES IN
SOUTHERN ONTARIO AND LESS USE OF
THE AUTOMOBILE.”

John says WELL, EXCEPT
THAT THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
HAS SAID IT ISN'T INTERESTED IN
PUBLIC TRANSIT, IT'S KILLED ALL
OF THE SUBSIDIES THAT USED TO GO
TO PUBLIC TRANSIT SO, I'M NOT
SURE I WANT TO TURN PUBLIC
TRANSIT OVER TO THEM.
I THINK THAT IF WE COULD
ACTUALLY -- LET'S TAKE THE
PROPOSAL THAT TORONTO CITY
COUNCIL AND OTHERS IN TORONTO
HAVE MADE WHICH IS WE WANT TO
SHARE OF THE TAX IN GASOLINES IN
ORDER TO PUT INTO TRANSIT
SUBSIDIES, SEEMS TO ME THAT
WOULD BE A REALLY, REALLY GOOD
START.

Maureen says ANY THOUGHT, TOM.

Tom says WELL, YOU KNOW,
MONEY'S MONEY.
I'M NOT SURE ASIDE FROM MAKING
PEOPLE FEEL BETTER ABOUT WHERE
THE GAS TAX IS GOING, IT MAKES
ANY DIFFERENCE ABOUT WHETHER YOU
GET MONEY FROM THE GAS TAX OR
WHETHER YOU GET MONEY IN SOME
OTHER WAY.
CLEARLY THE POINT IS THE
PROVINCE, IN THIS -- IN ONTARIO,
IS THE MAIN SOURCE OF PUBLIC
REVENUE FOR THINGS LIKE TRANSIT.
MOST MUNICIPALITIES, INCLUDING
THE CITY OF TORONTO, CAN'T
REALLY AFFORD DO VERY MUCH.

Maureen says BUT WE DON'T GET
MUCH IN TORONTO ANYMORE FROM THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT.

Tom says I DON'T THINK WE
GET ANY ANYMORE.

John says IN TRANSIT?
NO, NOT A SENSE.

Maureen says AND SOME PEOPLE ARE
BOTHERED BY THE FACT THAT A LOT
OF PEOPLE FROM THE G.T.A. DRIVE
THEIR CARS TO A SUBWAY STOP,
PARK IT AND THEN GET ON THE
SUBWAY, BUT THEY'RE --

John says WELL THEY ACTUALLY -- THERE'S
SOME FORM LAT PROVINCE HAS
WORKED OUT SO PEOPLE IN THE
G.T.A. PAY SOME OF THE COST OF
GO TRANSIT.
BUT GO TRANSIT HAS A VERY BIG
SUBSIDY ATTACHED TO IT ON A
PER-RIDE BASIS.

Tom says BUT THE TTC, NO.

John says NO, THAT GETS
PAID ENTIRELY BY --

Tom says AND THE
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT, OF COURSE
WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HIGHWAY
407 WHICH I GUESS IT JUST GAVE
TO SOMEBODY OR SOLD TO SOMEBODY
FOR A CHEAP PRICE, SUBSIDIZES
ROAD TRAVEL, BUT OF COURSE IT
DOESN'T SUBSIDIZE PUBLIC.
I MEAN, THESE ARE ALL
WELL-KNOWN.
SO I AGREE THAT THE PROVINCE
SHOULD ACTUALLY LET US USE THAT
TIME-WORN CHEERB SHEA “LEVEL THE
PLAYING FIELD” AND START
SUBSIDIZING PUBLIC TRANSIT AS
WELL AS PRIVATE TRANSIT.
WHETHER THIS COMES FROM A
DEDICATED GASOLINE TAX SING A
SECOND-LEVEL QUESTION.
I THINK THE POINT IS TO GET OUR
MONEY, BECAUSE IT'S OUR MONEY TO
USE FOR THINGS THAT WILL BENEFIT
US.
AND PUBLIC TRANSIT PROBABLY
WILL.

John says IT'LL MAKE
THINGS MUCH MORE EFFICIENT.
YEAH.

Maureen says KEVIN IN HUNTSVILLE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME.
HI.

The Caller says HI, HOW ARE YOU DOING
TODAY?

Maureen says GOOD, THANKS.

The Caller says YEAH, I'M JUST
SOMEWHAT BAFFLED OVER THE
GOVERNMENT'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS
ALTERNATIVE, ACTUALLY, IS WHAT
MY POINT IS THERE WAS A CHAP
AROUND THIS AREA SEVERAL DECADES
AGO, I GUESS ABOUT TWO DECADES
AGO.
HE DEVELOPED A PROTOTYPE VEHICLE
WITH WOOD ALCOHOL AS AN
ALTERNATIVE.
PROVEN TO BE COST-EFFECTIVE AND
ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY, AND
THEY COME ALONG AND THEY BUSTED
HIM FOR RUNNING A STILL.
AND I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IN
TODAY'S DAY AND AGE, WITH THE
CONCERNS, YOU KNOW, FACING US
AND EVERYTHING, WHY THEY WOULD
DO THAT.
AND I THINK IT'S SOMEWHAT OF A
CONCERN THAT THAT'S THEIR
ATTITUDE TOWARDS ALTERNATIVES.

Maureen says YEAH, WASN'T THERE
SOMEONE TRYING TO COME UP WITH A
NEW FORM OF FUEL, ETHANOL OR
SOMETHING MADE OUT OF CORN AND
THEY WERE ASKING FOR SOME
GOVERNMENT -- I CAN'T REMEMBER
HOW THAT STORY WENT, BUT HAVE
GOVERNMENTS BEEN HELPFUL IN
GRANTS OR WHATEVER, TOM, IN
ENCOURAGING OTHER FORMS OF FUEL?

Tom says YEAH ETHANOL YEAH
I THINK THEY DO.
AND IT'S REALLY PLUGGED IN IN
THE AMERICAN MIDWEST --

John says THERE ARE OTHER
THINGS THAT GOVERNMENTS HAVE DONE.
CALIFORNIA THEY JUST SAID “WE'VE
GOT TO HAVE ELECTRIC CARS BY
CERTAIN DATES.”
CERTAIN NUMBER OF PRODUCTION
VEHICLES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE
ELECTRIC IN NATURE.
I MEAN VERY TOUGH THINGS.
CAR MANUFACTURERS WERE UNHAPPY
ABOUT, BUT THAT'S HELPING TO
CREATE ALTERNATIVES.
THE BALLARD FUEL CELL I THINK IS
GETTING SOME GOVERNMENT
SUBSIDIES TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT ELSE TO DO.
THERE'S GREAT TALK ABOUT
CREATING VERY, VERY EFFICIENT
VEHICLES.
I MEAN EVEN DAVID SUZUKI
RECENTLY BOUGHT A CAR, FIRST
TIME IN 30 YEARS, IT'S A
GASOLINE-ELECTRIC.

Maureen says HE GOT THAT ONE DID, HE?

John says IT'S NOT GOING
TO SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE
WORLD BUT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES
AND SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE
ACTUALLY ENCOURAGING THEM.
AND I MEAN, I THINK THIS IS PART
OF THE REVOLUTION THAT'S GOING
ON IN TERMS OF ENERGY, WHERE A
LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING “WE'RE
DOING THINGS WRONG ABOUT
ENERGY.”
AND WE'VE GOT TO LOOK FOR WAYS
OF REDUCING ENERGY.

Maureen says I WONDER, WOULD YOU
PAY EXTRA, TOM, FOR A VEHICLE
THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, BATTERY
BATTERY-OPERATED, OR LIKE THE
ONE SUZUKI BOUGHT THAT'S HALF
AND HALF?

Tom says WELL YOU MEAN ME
PERSONALLY OR ME AS A SORT OF A
NORMAL PERSON?

Maureen says YOU AS A NORMAL PERSON.

Tom says I THINK AS A
NORMAL PERSON, YOU'VE GOT --
PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN WHAT'S
GOING TO COST.
AND IF THE CAR COSTS, YOU KNOW,
SO THERE'S A TRADE-OFF.
IF THE CAR COSTS MORE TO BUY BUT
IT COSTS LESS TO OPERATE, THEN
PEOPLE BUY IT, IT'S A GOOD DEEP.

John says BUT WHAT'S
INTERESTING ABOUT THE WORLD IS
THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW WILLING TO
PAY FOR THINGS THAT EXPRESS
THEIR VALUES.
SO PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY
MORE FOR ORGANIC FOODS, AS AN
EXAMPLE.
SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING
HEY, THERE'S NO CHEMICALS IN
THIS, AND I'M WILLING TO PAY
MORE.
I BELIEVE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO
PAY MORE FOR A VEHICLE THAT'S
GOING TO CAUSE LESS DAMAGE TO
THE ENVIRONMENT.
THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH MORE
AND HOW RELIABLE IS THAT VEHICLE
GOING TO BE?
AND I THINK THAT'S THE PROBLEM
AT THE MOMENT.
THAT IF THEY KNEW THEY WERE
GETTING SOMETHING THAT WAS
RELIABLE, BUT EVERYBODY'S
WORRIED ABOUT --

Maureen says IT'S IFFY.

Tom says SOME PEOPLE BUY
ORGANIC FOOD BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE
THINK THE OTHER FOOD WILL KILL
THEM, PERSONALLY.
BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY THINK
THAT YOUR DRIVING A CAR WILL
KILL YOU PERSONALLY, MIGHT JUST
KILL SOMEBODY ELSE.
SO I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF A
DIFFERENCE.
I THINK IF YOU WANT TO HAVE
PEOPLE -- IF YOU WANT TO HAVE
PEOPLE BUY STUFF THAT'S ACTUALLY
ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND, YOU GOT
TO MAKE IT AT SOME LEVEL
ATTRACTIVE FOR THEM OR
UNATTRACTIVE TO BUY THE OTHER
STUFF.

Maureen says THEY RECENTLY IN THE
STATES WERE HAVING A DISCUSSION
ABOUT S.U.V.s BECAUSE AN SUV IS
VERY SAFE IF YOU'RE IN IT BUT IF
YOU HIT ANOTHER CAR, A LITTLER
CAR, THOSE PEOPLE ARE IN GREATER
DANGER.
SO SAFETY HAS COME INTO IT.
SUVs ARE BIG GAS DOES LETTERS,
BUT PEOPLE WANT TO PROTECT THEIR
FAMILIES AND THEY'VE HERD YOU'LL
SURVIVE ANYTHING THIS THIS
THING.

John says SHOULD BE CALLED
AN SNV, SPORTS NON-UTILITY
VEHICLE.

Maureen says LET'S GO TO PAUL IN
TORONTO.
HI PAUL?

The Caller says YEAH, HI.
I GUESS MY COMMENT HAS TO DO
WITH -- I APPRECIATE WHAT
Mr. SEWELL AND THE OTHER
GENTLEMAN ARE TALKING THAT WHAT
WE HAVE TO DO IS DO THINGS
LOCALLY, BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY
ALL WE CAN DO.
BUT TO ME, IF I'M REALLY BEING
HONEST WITH MYSELF, IT'S REALLY
A DROP IN THE BUCKET.
I SEE A LOT OF COLLUSION BETWEEN
OIL COMPANIES AND GOVERNMENTS,
AND I THINK WHAT YOU REALLY NEED
TO HAPPEN IS YOU NEED A
GOVERNMENT, OR A COUNTRY LIKE
THE UNITED STATES, WITH ALL ITS
WEALTH RIGHT NOW, TO PUT THE
SAME KIND OF ENERGY INTO
ALTERNATIVE -- DEVELOPING
ALTERNATIVE FUEL OR JUST LIKE
WHAT BALLARD'S DOING, THAT TYPE
OF TECHNOLOGY, PUT THE SAME KIND
OF RESOURCES THEY PUT INTO THE
HUMAN GENOME PROJECT, FOR
EXAMPLE.
AND THEY COULD SOLVE IT VERY
QUICKLY.
BUT I'M SURE THAT THE WORLD
ORDER OF WHERE THE --
ECONOMICALLY, HOW THE OIL
COMPANIES FIT IN IS JUST TOO
POWERFUL.
THERE'S TOO MUCH MONEY INVOLVED,
TOO MUCH GREED, AND UNTIL WE
LOOK AT THAT, THIS IS ALL
JUST -- YOU KNOW, WE'RE JUST
TRYING TO CLEAN UP THE LITTLE
MESSES IN FRONT OF US BUT IT'S
REALLY NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE
PROBLEM.

Maureen says SO -- YEAH, WELL
JOHN, THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS
MAKING EARLIER.
CAN WE MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

John says SURE.
CANADA CAN TAKE THE LEAD.
I MEAN LOOK AT SOME OF THE
FOREIGN INITIATIVES THAT LLOYD
AXWORTHY'S BEEN DOING ABOUT
LANDMINES AND CHILDREN.
YOU KNOW, POINT IS THAT A
COUNTRY LIKE CANADA CAN
ACTUALLY --

Maureen says NOBODY SAID CANADA
COULDN'T, BUT PAUL, INDIVIDUAL
LITTLE PAUL WITH HIS CAR, CAN HE
MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
HE SAYS NOT UNLESS THE
GOVERNMENT AND THE OIL COMPANIES
COME AROUND.

John says WELL I MEAN I
THINK ALL OF US CAN MAKE A
DIFFERENCE IN SOME SORT OF WAY,
AND I AGREE THAT SOME DAYS IT'S
REALLY DARK.

Maureen says OKAY.

John says IT DOESN'T LOOK
VERY HANDY, BUT IF WE DON'T TRY
I THINK WE'RE IN SOME TROUBLE.

Maureen says WHAT'S THE MOST
POSITIVE THING IN YOUR OPINION,
TOM THAT COULD COME OUT OF THIS
S SPMD ATE OF “SO-CALLED BUT NOT
REALLY” HIGH OIL PRICES.

Tom says THE MOST POSITIVE
THING THAT COULD COME OUT WOULD
BE THE KIND OF DISCUSSION THAT
WE'RE HAVING TODAY, WHICH IS HOW
DO YOU DEAL WITH ENERGY IN THE
LONG-TERM SO THAT YOU CAN USE
LESS AND USE ENERGY THAT'S LESS
POLLUTING, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
WHAT I FIND DISTURBING ABOUT THE
DEBATE SO FAR IS THAT IT'S SO
LIMITED.
IT'S ALL ABOUT WHETHER OTTAWA
SHOULD LOWER ITS EXCISE TAX OR
ONTARIO SHOULD LOWER ITS EXCISE
TAX OR WHETHER AL PALLADINI CAN
MAKE THE SHIPPERS PAY AN EXTRA
SURCHARGE TO THE INDEPENDENT
TRUCKERS.

Maureen says THEY'RE NOT HAVING
THE DISCUSSION WE'RE HAVING HERE
TODAY.

John says WE'RE HAVING A
REAL HONEST-TO-GOODNESS
PARLIAMENTARY DISCUSSION.

Maureen says AND DID YOU SEE HOW
TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S THE PRICE
AT THE PUMPS TO
TRANSPORTATION --

Tom says WELL IT'S ALL
PART OF THE SAME THING AND
THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF NATIONAL
QUESTIONS INVOLVED IN THIS MAUD
BARLOW FROM THE COUNCIL OF
CANADIANS HAD A PIECE, I THINK
IT WAS IN THE GLOBE OR SOMETHING
TODAY, ONE OF THE PAIRPS TODAY,
TALKING ABOUT THIS SPECIFICALLY
AND SHE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WE HAD A DEBATE BACK IN THE
EARLY '80s WHEN PEOPLE STILL
THOUGHT ENERGY WAS IMPORTANT,
RELATED TO FREE TRADE.

Maureen says RIGHT.

Tom says AND THE DEBATE
WAS WHETHER CANADA SHOULD HAVE
ANY KIND OF INDEPENDENCE, ENERGY
INDEPENDENCE, WHETHER CANADA AS
A NATION SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO
PRESERVE SOME OF ITS ENERGY FOR
ITS OWN NEEDS, WHETHER IT SHOULD
BE ABLE TO CHARGE DIFFERENTIAL
PRICES TO THINGS LIKE
CONSERVATION, WE LOST ALL OF
THAT.

Maureen says AND WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE BUT IT
WAS GREAT TO HAVE YOU BOTH.
THANKS FOR DOING THIS TODAY.

Tom says THANK YOU.

John says THANKS.

Maureen says TOM WALKOM A
POLITICAL COLUMNIST FOR “THE
TORONTO STAR.”
And John Sewell is an environmental activist
And a former Mayor of Toronto.
And that’s all the time we have
Today for More to Life. Thanks for watching,
I’m Maureen Taylor and we’re here
Monday through Friday at 1 o’clock.

Watch: Gas