Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 258 | Jan 27, 2002

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK
ON 4th READING.
CHANGING ALL THE RULES.
DALTON MCGUINTY PROPOSES TO
OVERHAUL THE POLITICAL GAME
IN ONTARIO.
(music plays)

Steve sits around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray blazer over mustard yellow sweater.

Steve says GOOD SUNDAY AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY, I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
AND THIS IS
4th READING.
IT WAS A TOUGH WEEK FOR
THE TWO PC LEADERSHIP
CANDIDATES WHO SAY THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION IS
NOT OVER.
A GOOD WEEK FOR THE
CANDIDATE WHO SAYS IT IS.
WHILE THE FRONT RUNNER
SMILES FROM ON HIGH.
WE'LL HAVE SOME FRESH
POLLING RESULTS ON JUST HOW
BIG ERNIE EVES'
LEAD REALLY IS.
FIRST, THE ONLY MAN IN
ONTARIO WHO TODAY HAS A
CHANCE TO RUIN THE PLANS
OF WHOEVER WINS THE
PREMIERSHIP IS
DALTON MCGUINTY.
THE LIBERAL LEADER RECENTLY
UNVEILED SOME IDEAS AIMED
AT IMPROVING THE WAY WE
DO DEMOCRACY IN ONTARIO.
WE ASKED CANADA'S LEADING
CONSTITUTIONAL EXPERT,
FORMER UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO PROFESSOR, PETER
RUSSELL, TO DECIPHER
THE PLAN FOR US.

A clip shows images of the Legislature.
A caption reads “Peter Russell. Churchill Society.”

Peter is in his eighties, clean-shaven and balding. He wears glasses, a pale blue shirt, a gray cardigan and a printed tie.

H says WE OPERATE AS IF IT
WAS A PRESIDENTIAL SYSTEM,
AND EVERY FOUR OR FIVE YEARS
WE ELECT ONE PERSON TO RUN
OUR SOCIETY.
THERE'S A KIND OF
ARROGANCE IN THAT SYSTEM.
AND THE GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE
ELECTED AND BENEFIT FROM
THE DISTORTIONS IN OUR
SYSTEM ARE ALMOST ARROGANT
AND COMPLACENT ABOUT THE
POWER IT'S GIVEN THEM.
AND I THINK PEOPLE REALLY
WANT TO CHANGE THAT.

A caption reads “Dalton McGhuinty’s Plan. Referendum on the ‘first past the post’ system.”

Peter says THE CITIZENS SHOULD
CHOOSE WHAT KIND OF A VOTING
SYSTEMS THEY HAVE.
I THINK MOST ONTARIO
VOTERS WOULD GO FOR THAT.
THEY WOULD SAY WE SHOULD
DECIDE WHAT OUR VOTING
SYSTEM IS.
THERE'S A CONFLICT IF
GOVERNMENT DOES IT.
IF GOVERNMENT DECIDES YOUR
VOTING SYSTEM, GOVERNMENT
BENEFITS UNIQUELY AND
TREMENDOUSLY FROM THE STATUS
QUO, IT'S GOT A CONFLICT IN
SAYING THE SYSTEM THAT WE
HAVE IS THE ONLY ONE.

The caption changes to “Hold elections every four years.”

Peter says FIXED VOTES, THAT IS AN
ELECTION SCHEDULED FOR EVERY
FOUR YEARS CAN WORK WITH THE
KIND OF PROVISOS HE'S BUILT IN.
THAT IS IF THERE'S NO
GOVERNMENT THAT CAN COMMAND
IN ANY CONSISTENT WAY THE
MAJORITY SUPPORT OF THE
ELECTED LEGISLATURE, THEN
THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE
AN ELECTION.

The caption changes to “Free votes on some issues”

Peter says PARTY LEADERS CAN RELAX
PARTY DISCIPLINE.
AND I THINK THOSE WHO DO
WILL NOT SUFFER TOO MUCH.
IT'S REALLY A MATTER OF
CAREERISM IN THE PARTY.
NO PARTY LEADER CAN PROMISE --
I DON'T THINK THEY CAN PROMISE,
THAT A PERSON WHO --
SAY A BACK BENCH MEMBER
OF THE LEGISLATURE GOES
AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT'S
POSITION, WILL NOT
SUFFER IN THAT PERSON'S
POLITICAL CAREER.
THAT'S THE REEL, YOU
KNOW, DISCIPLINE.

Steve says PETER RUSSELL,
FORMERLY OF THE U of T.
WELL, LET'S LET THE LIBERAL
LEADER SPEAK FOR HIMSELF
ABOUT ALL OF THIS.
I TALKED TO DALTON MCGUINTY,
THE MPP FOR OTTAWA SOUTH
EARLIER THIS WEEK AT
HIS QUEEN'S PARK OFFICE.

The interview rolls.

Steve says DALTON, NICE TO
HAVE YOU WITH US.
ALWAYS GOOD OF YOU TO SPEND
SOME TIME WITH US, THANKS.

Dalton says THANK YOU
FOR HAVING ME.
TALK TO US OFF THE TOP ABOUT
THE OVERALL PHILOSOPHY
BEHIND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO
DO WITH THIS DEMOCRACY PACKAGE?

The caption changes to “Dalton McGuinty. Ontario Liberal Leader.”

Dalton is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven and with short straight brown hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and striped black tie.

He says WELL, VERY SIMPLY, IT'S
ABOUT HARNESSING SOME OF
THE WONDERFUL ABILITIES
OF OUR INDIVIDUAL
REPRESENTATIVES AND
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO.
STEVE, WE HAVE THE BEST
EDUCATED, MOST INFORMED
CITIZENRY IN THE
HISTORY OF OUR PROVINCE.
BUT WE STILL TREAT THEM
AND THEIR REPRESENTATIVES
LIKE CHILDREN.

Steve says WHY?

Dalton says WELL, BECAUSE THIS GOVERNMENT
IN PARTICULAR HAS DECIDED,
OVER MANY AREAS, OVER SIX
AND A HALF YEARS NOW, THAT
PEOPLE BY AND LARGE ARE AN
OBSTACLE TO BE OVERCOME,
RATHER THAN A
RESOURCE TO BE TAPPED.
LET ME BE A BIT MORE
SPECIFIC ABOUT ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT I WANT TO DO.
THIS NOTION THAT SOMEHOW, IF
I LEAD A GOVERNMENT OF 60
MPPs THAT WE'RE GOING TO
AGREE ON ALL THE ISSUES ALL
THE TIME, AND THAT OUR VARIOUS
CONSTITUENTS WILL BE IN
AGREEMENT WITH
THAT, IS NONSENSE.
ALL RIGHT?
WE REPRESENT A VERY
DIVERSE PROVINCE.
SO WHAT I INTEND TO DO IS
ENSURE MY MPPs HAVE GREATER
SAY IN TERMS OF WHERE WE
ARE GOING AS A GOVERNMENT.
NOW, THERE ARE GOING TO BE
SOME EXCEPTIONS OF COURSE.
IF YOU RUN ON MY TICKET AT
ELECTION TIME, THEN YOU OF
COURSE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE
PLATFORM, AND YOU HAVE TO
SUPPORT OUR BUDGETS AND
OUR THRONE SPEECHES.
BUT BEYOND THAT, I THINK
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR
MPPs TO HAVE THE ABILITY
TO REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF
THEIR CONSTITUENTS.

Steve says YOU AND I BOTH KNOW
EVERY LEADER WHO ISN'T IN
OFFICE SAYS THAT, AND WHEN
THEY GET INTO OFFICE,
SOMETHING CHANGES.
HOW DO WE KNOW
YOU MEAN IT?

Dalton says I'M ABSOLUTELY
COMMITTED TO IT.
AND, FRANKLY, I DON'T
THINK WE HAVE AN OPTION.
HERE'S THE CANARY
IN THE MINE SHAFT.
WE'RE DOWN TO A 58 PERCENT
TURNOUT WHEN IT COMES TO OUR
PROVINCIAL ELECTIONS.
THAT'S 58 PERCENT OF
REGISTERED VOTERS.
IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT
ELIGIBLE VOTERS, ONLY
50 PERCENT OF ONTARIO VOTERS
ARE SHOWING UP AT ELECTION TIME.

Steve says SO GIVE ME A NEW
IDEA TO GET PEOPLE TO VOTE.

Dalton says WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I'M
COMMITTED TO INCREASING
VOTER TURNOUT
BY 10 PERCENT.
I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO
CONVEY TO PEOPLE IN ORDER
TO GET THEM INTERESTED AND
EXCITED ABOUT POLITICS AND
THEIR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT IS
THIS IDEA THEY SOMEHOW
CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
SO THE FIRST THING WE'RE
GOING TO SAY TO ONTARIANS IS
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN
OPPORTUNITY TO REDESIGN THE
WAY YOU VOTE FOR YOUR
PROVINCIAL POLITICIANS.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A
REFERENDUM ON A FIRST
PAST-THE-POST SYSTEM.
WE'RE ONE OF THE FEW
JURISDICTIONS LEFT ON THE
PLANET THAT USES THIS SYSTEM
THAT SAYS WHOEVER GETS
THE MOST VOTES GETS IN.
THERE ARE OTHER SYSTEMS
WHICH SAY IF YOU GET 30
PERCENT OF THE VOTES YOU
SHOULD GET 30 PERCENT OF
THE SEATS.

Steve says PROPORTIONAL
REPRESENTATION.
ARE YOU IN
FAVOUR OF THAT?

Dalton says I'M GOING TO TURN THIS
ISSUE OVER TO ONTARIANS.
IT WOULDN'T BE A DEMOCRATIC
CHARTER, STEVE, IF I WOULD
BEGIN TO TELL PEOPLE WHERE
I THINK THEY SHOULD GO.

Steve says I UNDERSTAND, YOU
WANT TO LISTEN TO THEIR
VIEWS, BUT ARE YOU COMING
FROM ANYWHERE ON THIS?

Dalton says I'M COMING FROM IT'S NOW
TIME FOR US TO TAKE A LOOK
AT WHERE WE ARE.
THE SYSTEM HAS BEEN IN PLACE
FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED
YEARS NOW.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
LET'S SEE IF WE
CAN IMPROVE IT.
I'LL TELL YOU WHY THIS IS
SO IMPORTANT TO ME, TOO,
AS A PARTY LEADER.
ON THE ISSUE OF HAVING
A SAY IN POLITICS.
ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE GOT
TO DO IS RECRUIT PEOPLE.
IDEALISTIC PEOPLE, CAPABLE
PEOPLE, PEOPLE COMMITTED
TO PUBLIC SERVICE.
AND ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT QUESTIONS THEY
HAVE FOR ME IS, YEAH, BUT
COULD I MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME
FROM THE CENTRE EXACTLY
WHAT IT IS THEY HAVE TO DO,
HOW TO DO IT AND WHEN TO DO IT?
THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT
FOR US TO BEGIN TO RESPECT
REPRESENTATIVES AND THROUGH
THEM, THEIR CONSTITUENTS BY
GIVING THEM A GREATER SAY
IN TERMS OF WHAT WE CAN DO
IN THE LEGISLATURE.

Steve says WHY WOULD ANY PREMIER
OF ONTARIO CHANGE A SYSTEM
THAT GOT HIM ELECTED?
IF YOU WIN THE NEXT
ELECTION, YOU WILL HAVE
WON UNDER THE OLD RULES.
WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE A
SYSTEM THAT YOU WON THROUGH?

Dalton says IT'S TIME TO
MODERNIZE IS SYSTEM.
IT'S TIME TO TAP INTO OUR
GREATEST RESOURCE IN THIS
PROVINCE, WHICH
IS OUR PEOPLE.
ONE OF THE THINGS I'M GOING
TO ELIMINATE, FOR EXAMPLE,
STEVE, IS THE PREMIER'S
DIVINE RIGHT TO PICK AN
ELECTION DATE.
I THINK THAT IS
UNDEMOCRATIC, AND I THINK
IT GIVES A DECIDED
ADVANTAGE TO THE GOVERNMENT
OF THE DAY.
I THINK WE SHOULD
HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS
PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR IN
THEIR LIVES IS MORE
PREDICTABILITY, MORE
STABILITY, AND THIS IS ONE OF
THE WAYS THAT WE CAN DO THAT.

Steve says IT'S A VERY
AMERICAN IDEA.
YOU KNOW YOU'LL COME
UNDER CRITICISM FOR THAT.
IT'S AN AMERICAN IMPORT
TO THE CANADIAN SYSTEM.

Dalton says WELL, IT MAY BE THAT THE
AMERICANS USE IT, BUT I
THINK THE WAY ONTARIANS
WANT US TO LOOK AT
INDIVIDUAL IDEAS IS WHETHER
OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD IDEAS.
SO WHAT IF THE AMERICANS
HAPPEN TO USE IT?
IS IT AN IMPROVEMENT?
AND I THINK HERE'S ANOTHER
IMPORTANT QUESTION, ONCE WE
HAVE THIS IN PLACE, WOULD
ANY PREMIER EVER DARE
RETURN IT BACK TO THE OLD
SYSTEM, WHERE THE PREMIER,
HIM OR HERSELF GETS TO
DECIDE WHEN WE'RE GOING TO
HAVE AN ELECTION DATE?
I THINK NOT.

Steve says CITIZEN JURIES.
CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THEY
ARE AND WHAT THEY'RE
DESIGNED TO ACCOMPLISH?

Dalton says THEY'RE DESIGNED TO GET
PEOPLE MORE ENGAGED IN
TERMS OF LENDING SHAPE
TO PUBLIC POLICY.
I'LL TELL YOU WHAT WE DO
RIGHT NOW IN GOVERNMENT.
WE GET POLLSTERS TO GET ON
THE PHONE, AND THEY GET
HOLD OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BUSY
IN THE KITCHEN AT NIGHT
TRYING TO FEED THE KIDS.
AND THEY SAY HAVE YOU GOT A
FEW MINUTES, WE WANT TO ASK
YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT
MAYBE THE FUTURE OF
HEALTHCARE, OR WHAT WE
SHOULD BE DOING ABOUT THE
WATER SITUATION IN ONTARIO.
AND PEOPLE WILL GIVE US
THEIR TOP OF MIND, OFTEN
POORLY INFORMED OPINION.
WHAT A CITIZEN'S JURY DOES
IS WE SAY, LISTEN, WE NEED
8 OR 12 OF YOU, AND WE
NEED YOU FOR SEVEN DAYS.
AND DURING THE FIRST THREE
DAYS WE'RE GOING TO BRING IN
OUR VERY BEST EXPERTS WHO
ARE GOING TO INFORM YOU ON
AN ISSUE.
DURING THE NEXT THREE DAYS,
YOU'RE GOING TO DEBATE THIS
ISSUE AMONGST YOURSELF, AND
DURING THE FINAL DAY OR TWO
OR WHATEVER, YOU'RE GOING
TO PUT FORWARD SOME
RECOMMENDATIONS
TO GOVERNMENT.

Steve says I THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT
POLITICIANS WERE SUPPOSED
TO DO?

Dalton says THEY ARE GOING TO PROVIDE
US WITH GOOD ADVICE.
WE'VE USED JURIES
IN OTHER CAPACITIES.
IN FACT, WE'VE USED THEM IN
LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS
UNTIL RECENTLY WHEN IT
CAME TO CRIMINAL TRIALS.
CITIZENS JURIES HAVE BEEN
USED IN THE STATES AND IN
EUROPE FOR QUITE SOME TIME
NOW, AND IT'S A WAY OF
REACHING OUT TO PEOPLE AND
SAYING LISTEN, YOU CAN MAKE
A DIFFERENCE, WE DO SEEK
YOUR INPUT, AND THIS IS A
FORMAL WAY IN WHICH
WE CAN DO THAT.
IT'S NOTHING MORE
THAN VERY GOOD ADVICE.
ULTIMATE DECISION RESTS
WITH THE POLITICIANS.

Steve says I'M SPECULATING HERE,
I'M TRYING TO SEE WHERE
THIS IS GOING.
ANYBODY WHO HAS GOT A WEEK,
WHO CAN JUST TAKE A WEEK
OFF THE JOB TO GO AND BE A
PARTICIPANT IN A CITIZEN
JURY, YOU KNOW THE
EXPRESSION IN POLITICS,
MAY BE SOMEBODY WHO'S GOT
TOO MUCH TIME ON THEIR HANDS.
ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THIS IS
NOT GOING TO ATTRACT JUST A
LOT OF, YOU KNOW, COMMITTED
EXTREMISTS AT EITHER END,
AND THEY WILL BE THE
PEOPLE WHO WILL POPULATE
THESE JURIES, AND THIS WILL
TURN INTO, WELL, NOT AT ALL
WHAT YOU WANT IT
TO BE, OBVIOUSLY.

Dalton says WELL, I'LL GIVE YOU THE
ENGLISH EXPERIENCE.
THEY HAVE A PANEL THERE OF
8,000 CITIZENS WHO HAVE
SIGNED ON TO BE
CHOSEN AT RANDOM.
NOT UNLIKE THE WAY WE CHOOSE
OUR JURORS NOW FOR OUR
CORONERS' INQUESTS OR FOR OUR
CIVIL AND CRIMINAL TRIALS.
SO YOU HAVE A VAST
ARRAY OF PEOPLE.
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT CHOOSE
TO BE EXCUSED BECAUSE THEY
CAN'T DO THE
WORK AT THE TIME.
BUT I THINK, STEVE, THERE'S
AN UNTAPPED ENERGY, AND
GOODWILL IN THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO TODAY.
WE'VE GOT 12 MILLION PEOPLE,
MANY OF WHOM WOULD LIKE TO
HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
GIVE ADVICE TO GOVERNMENT.

Steve says DO YOU HEAR A CLARION
CALL IN THE ELECTORATE
FOR ALL OF THIS?
BECAUSE I MUST TELL YOU,
WHEN I PLAY HOCKEY WITH MY
BUDDIES, NOBODY IS OUT
THERE SAYING, YOU KNOW,
THIS FIRST PAST THE POST
SYSTEM REALLY SUCKS, AND
WE'VE GOT TO CHANGE THAT,
YOU AND I BOTH KNOW NORMAL
PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT
ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF.
POLITICAL WANKERS
LIKE US DO.

Dalton says I TELL YOU WHAT THEY DO SAY,
THOUGH, AND I'M SURE YOU'VE
HEARD THIS WHEN
YOU PLAY HOCKEY.
OH, THE GOVERNMENT.

Steve says YEAH, I
DO HEAR THAT.

Dalton says POLITICIANS, THEY
DON'T LISTEN.
WHO WOULD LISTEN TO ME?
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ME.
THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT
ME AND MY FAMILY.
I MEAN THAT'S A COMMON
REFRAIN THAT I'VE HEARD
DURING MY 11 YEARS
AS A POLITICIAN.

Steve says ONCE YOU'RE IN
THAT'S WHAT THEY HEAR.

Dalton says ONCE YOU'RE IN, YOU DON'T
LISTEN TO ME ANYMORE.
YOU DON'T LISTEN.
THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY
TO REACH OUT TO PEOPLE.
BUT MORE THAN THAT.
IT'S MORE THAN JUST A
SYMBOLIC REACHING OUT
AS I SAID EARLIER.
WE HAVE THE BEST INFORMED,
BEST EDUCATED CITIZENRY EVER.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'VE GOT
SOME OF THE MOST COMPLEX
CHALLENGES WE'VE EVER BEEN
CALLED TO GRAPPLE WITH.
I THINK NONE OF US IS
AS SMART AS ALL OF US.
AND THE JOB OF GOOD
LEADERSHIP IS TO REACH OUT
TO PEOPLE AND ELICIT THE
BEST ADVICE YOU CAN GET,
AND BRING THAT TO BEAR
ON THE CHALLENGES.

Steve says WHY WOULDN'T A
POLITICIAN, WHO GOES THROUGH
THE TROUBLE OF RAISING MONEY
AND KNOCKING ON DOORS AND
PUTTING THEIR NAME ON A
BALLOT, BE THREATENED OR
UPSET WITH SOMEBODY WHO
JUST STICKS THEIR NAME IN A
JURY POOL AND IS GOING TO
COME IN AND GET THE BENEFIT
OF ALL THIS EXPERTISE
AND PASSING, I MEAN,
ESSENTIALLY YOU'RE ASKING
THEM TO DO WHAT POLITICIANS
PUT THEIR NAME ON A
BALLOT TO DO, AREN'T YOU?

Dalton says NO, I'M NOT.
I'M ASKING THEM, I'M
REACHING OUT TO ONTARIANS
AND ASKING THEM TO GIVE ME
THEIR VERY BEST ADVICE.
THIS IS SOMETHING WE'RE
WITNESSING IN MANY OTHER AREAS.

Steve says THAT'S WHAT YOU ASKED
YOUR BACK BENCHERS FOR,
THEIR BEST ADVICE.

Dalton says THEIR BEST ADVICE.
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE ONLY
103 PEOPLE IN THIS LEGISLATURE.
SOMEHOW ARE WE 103 SMARTER
THAN THE OTHER 12 MILLION
PUT TOGETHER?
I DON'T THINK SO.
STEVE, THE AGE OF
DEFERENTIALISM IS DEAD.
DOCTORS, YOU KNOW, HAVE A
CHOICE TODAY, EITHER THEY
CAN FEEL THREATENED BY
PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPENT HOURS
ON THE INTERNET AND BECOME
VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT
THEIR SPECIFIC DISEASE, OR
WE CAN WORK TOGETHER TO
COMBAT THAT ILLNESS.
THE SAME COMES WITH RESPECT
TO SOME OF THE MAJOR
CHALLENGES WE'VE GOT TO
COPE WITH TODAY IN ONTARIO.
THE FUTURE SUSTAINABILITY
OF HEALTHCARE.
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO
PROTECT OUR GROUND WATER?
WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TO
ENSURE WE CAN AFFORD COLLEGE
AND UNIVERSITY FOR
ALL OF OUR FAMILIES?

Steve says YOU THINK ORDINARY
CITIZENS EMPANELLED TO GIVE
YOU GOOD ADVICE WILL
BE ABLE TO DO SO?

Dalton says I THINK THEY HAVE MUCH TO
OFFER, AND MY INTENTION IS
TO REACH OUT TO THEM AND
CAPITALIZE ON THAT GOODWILL.

Steve says THIS IS NOT PANDERING
TO A POPULIST CAMPAIGN
AND THAT KIND OF THING?

Dalton says IF WE'RE GOING TO SUCCEED
IN THE HIGHLY COMPETITIVE,
KNOWLEDGE-BASED GLOBAL
ECONOMY, WE BETTER BE
PULLING TOGETHER AND
WORKING TOGETHER.
AND I INTEND TO REACH OUT TO
PEOPLE AND TO ENLIST THEIR
SUPPORT AND GET THEIR VERY
BEST ADVICE IN DOING THAT.

Steve says AND IF YOU FORM
A MAJORITY GOVERNMENT,
GUARANTEED, 100 PERCENT,
YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW,
THIS WILL HAPPEN.

Dalton says IT WILL.
ABSOLUTELY.
WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
I'VE MADE A SPECIFIC
COMMITMENT.
WE'RE GOING TO INCREASE
VOTER TURNOUT RATE
BY 10 PERCENT.
AND WE'LL BE DOING THAT
BY TELLING PEOPLE THAT
THEY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
THEY CAN ENGAGE WITH
THIS GOVERNMENT.
THEY CAN HELP US BUILD
A BETTER ONTARIO.

Steve says OKAY.
IN MY LAST COUPLE OF MINUTES
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
SOMETHING A
LITTLE DIFFERENT.
AND THAT IS AFTER MARCH
23rd, OF COURSE, WE'RE
GOING TO HAVE A NEW
PREMIER IN ONTARIO.
THE TORIES ARE GOING TO
SELECT A NEW LEADER.
AND THEN PRESUMABLY, SOME
TIME BETWEEN THAT DATE AND
TWO YEARS HENCE, WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE ANOTHER ELECTION.
WHAT IS YOUR JOB IN
THE NEXT TWO YEARS?
GIVEN THAT MOST ONTARIANS
DON'T KNOW YOU, YOU'RE NOT
ON THEIR RADAR SCREENS,
THEY DON'T THINK ABOUT YOU,
WHAT IS YOUR JOB OVER
THE NEXT TWO YEARS?

Dalton says MY JOB THEN REMAINS THE SAME
AS IT IS TODAY, TO MEET
WITH AS MANY ONTARIANS AS
I POSSIBLY CAN, TO BETTER
LEARN OF THE ISSUES THAT
ARE IMPORTANT TO THEM, TO
REPRESENT THOSE VIEWS IN THE
LEGISLATURE, AND TO DEVELOP
ALTERNATIVE POLICIES TO HELP
IMPROVE THEIR DAILY LIVES.
IT'S NOT AS MUCH MORE
COMPLICATED THAN THAT.
FOR EXAMPLE, JUST RECENTLY
I WAS IN A GRADE ONE CLASS,
36 KIDS.
THAT'S TOO MANY.
PARENTS WERE COMPLAINING
THEIR CHILDREN AREN'T
GETTING ENOUGH
INDIVIDUAL ATTENTION.
WELL, I HAPPEN TO BELIEVE
IF WE HAVE SMALLER CLASSES,
WHICH IS AN IMPORTANT PART
OF OUR PLAN, WE'LL BE
HELPING OUR CHILDREN
DO BETTER AT SCHOOL.
IF WE HAVE BETTER SCHOOLS,
WE'LL HAVE BETTER JOBS,
WE'LL HAVE BETTER CITIZENS,
WE'LL HAVE STRONGER
SOCIETY, WE'LL HAVE A
MORE COMPETITIVE ECONOMY.
ONE OF THE REASONS I'VE COME
TO BELIEVE THAT, STEVE, IS
AS A RESULT OF MY TRAVELS
AROUND THE PROVINCE, AND MY
OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH
PARENTS AND STUDENTS AND
OTHERS WHO ARE COMMITTED
TO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

Steve says AS ALWAYS, THANKS
FOR SPENDING SOME TIME
WITH US ON TVO.
THANKS, DALTON.

Dalton says THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Back in the studio, Steve says OKAY, SO MUCH FOR WHAT'S
ON THE LIBERAL'S AGENDA,
HOW ABOUT THE TORIES?
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE RACE
TO SUCCEED MIKE HARRIS?
WITH THE LATEST 411 FROM THE
BACKROOMS, AND SOME FRESH
POLLING RESULTS,
HERE ARE ROBERT FISHER
AND SUSANNA KELLEY.

(music plays)

A clip captioned “Backroom 411” shows very fast clips of Ernie Eaves and other politicians giving speeches and press conferences. Then, Susanna Kelley and Robert Fisher walk down a long hallway and past a glass-paned door.

The clip ends, and Susanna and Robert sit in the studio with Steve.

Steve says OKAY, ROBERT AND SUSANNA
WITHOUT FURTHER ADO, LET US
GET TO OUR NEW NUMBERS.
ENVIRONICS SURVEY, THANKS TO
4th READING,
LET'S GET IT
ALL TOGETHER.
BRING IT UP, IF
YOU WOULD, MICHAEL:

A slate appears with a caption that reads “Fourth Reading-Environics Poll. Have you been following the race to success Mike Harris as Premier of Ontario? Very or somewhat closely: 46 percent total and 57 percent of PC’s; Hardly or not at all: 53 percent total and 42 percent of PC’s.”

Steve says NOW, THE BIG NUMBERS WE WANT
TO FIND OUT, OF COURSE,
ARE WHO IS LEADING WHAT.
SO LET'S BRING UP THE
NUMBERS NOW TO SEE WHO IS
DOING WHAT,
THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE
WHOSE MINDS ARE STILL NOT
MADE UP.
AND KEEP IN MIND, MCGUINTY'S
NAME IS ON THAT LIST
BECAUSE ENVIRONICS DID NOT
PROMPT PEOPLE WITH NAMES ON
WHO YOU WOULD LIKE TO
SEE REPLACING HARRIS.
THIS IS JUST GIVE US
YOUR ANSWER TOP OF MIND,
AND THIS IS
WHAT PEOPLE SAID.

Another slate appears with the caption “Who would you like to see replace Mike Harris as premier? Earnie Eves: 12 percent of the total population and 29 percent of PC’s; Elizabeth Witmer: 6 percent total and 2 percent of PC’s; Jim Flaherty: 2 percent total and 4 percent of PC’s; Tony Clement: 1 percent total and 1 percent of PC’s; Chris Stockwell: 1 percent total and 1 percent of PC’s; Dalton McGuinty: 1 percent total and no data for PC’s; ‘Don’t know:’ 61 percent total and 52 percent of PC’s”

Steve says OKAY, LOTS OF NUMBERS
TO CHEW OVER HERE.
LET'S JUST GET SOME INITIAL
MUSINGS FROM BOTH OF YOU AS
TO WHAT YOU THINK
OF ALL OF THIS.
ROBERT?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Robert Fisher. Provincial Affairs Specialist."

Robert is in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and white and blue striped tie.

Robert says SOUNDS LIKE
A CORONATION TO ME,
AND PROBABLY
TO ERNIE EVES.
THE GAP IS REALLY
WIDE THERE.
INTERESTING, TOO, I THINK
THE NUMBERS IN THE GENERAL
PUBLIC ON ELIZABETH WITMER,
HER MESSAGE IS OBVIOUSLY
HAVING SOME
RESONANCE OUT THERE.
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT
TORIES ARE LISTENING.
BUT NOT IN THE PARTY.
THAT'S NOT WORKING THERE.

Steve says SUSANNA WHAT
ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

The caption changes to "Susanna Kelley. Queen’s Park Bureau Chief."
Susanna is in her forties, with short strawberry blond hair and bangs. She’s wearing a black suit with lilac lapels and cuffs.

She says WELL, I THINK IT CONFIRMS
WHAT I HAVE BEEN HEARING OF
THE INTERNAL POLLING BEING
DONE IN THE VARIOUS CAMPS.
MAYBE THE NUMBERS ARE
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT,
BUT THE BIG GAP FOR
ERNIE, WAY OUT AHEAD.
FLAHERTY IN SECOND,
WITMER IN THIRD, CLEMENT,
STOCKWELL.
AND I THINK OBVIOUSLY IT
BODES VERY WELL FOR ERNIE,
AND IT LOOKS LIKE, AS
ROBERT SAID, A CORONATION.
BUT IT IS
EARLY DAYS YET.
I DO HEAR THAT HE GOT A BUMP
A LITTLE BIT THIS WEEK,
PUBLICITY WISE, NORM
STERLING HAS COME OUT FOR
HIM, THE CONSUMER MINISTER,
ADDING HIS NAME TO THE
SEA OF CABINET
MINISTERS AND MPPs.

Steve says WHAT
IS IT NOW, 30?
30 MPPs?
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

Susanna says IT'S WAY UP THERE, I DON'T
KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER,
BUT HE'S GOT 700
WORKERS OUT THERE.
HE'S GOT WORKERS IN EVERY
RIDING, AND HE'S JUST GOING
BLAZES OUT THERE.
HE'S GETTING BIG NUMBERS
AT HIS EVENTS, APPARENTLY,
TOO, AND THAT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT BECAUSE THAT'S
WHERE THEY SET UP THOSE
MEMBERSHIP TABLES AND SELL
THOSE MEMBERSHIPS.

Steve says JUST A POINT ABOUT
THOSE POLLING NUMBERS.
WE SHOULD HASTEN TO ADD
ENVIRONICS SURVEYED 1004
ONTARIANS JANUARY 9-16, AND
THIS POLL IS CONSIDERED
CORRECT 19 TIMES OUT OF 20,
I THINK I'VE GOT TO SAY THAT.
KEEP IN MIND, THE TORY
NUMBERS ARE ON THE BASIS OF
260 PLUS PEOPLE SURVEYED.
SO THAT'S WHERE THE
CONSERVATIVE NUMBERS COME FROM.
AND IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT
THAT WITH STILL ALMOST TWO
MONTHS TO GO UNTIL THE MARCH
23rd LEADERSHIP DATE, THERE
ARE STILL LOTS OF TORIES
WHO HAVE NOT RENEWED
THEIR MEMBERSHIPS.
LOTS OF TORIES WHO OBVIOUSLY
HAVEN'T MADE UP THEIR
MINDS, AND LOTS OF WORK FOR
THE CAMPAIGN STILL TO DO.
SO IF ANYBODY THINKS THIS
IS OVER, THAT'S PROBABLY
A MISTAKE, TOO.

Robert says I'M SURPRISED
BY THAT, ACTUALLY.
ALTHOUGH, IF YOU TAKE A LOOK
AT THAT FIRST LEADERSHIP
DEBATE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND
WHY TORIES AREN'T PAYING
ATTENTION TO THIS CAMPAIGN.
I MEAN, I'VE SEEN PAINT DRY
THAT'S BEEN MORE EXCITING
THAN THAT 90 MINUTES, AND
SUSANNA WAS THERE, SO SHE
HAD TO ENDURE THE 90
MINUTES DIRECTLY.
I JUST WATCHED IT ON TV,
A LITTLE EASIER TO DO.
BUT THAT'S A PROBLEM
FOR THE TORIES.
THEY'VE GOT TO
GET SOME INTEREST.
AND I THINK, QUITE FRANKLY,
THEY'VE GOT TO GET AWAY FROM
THIS THING THAT IT'S GOING TO
BE THE ERNIE EVES' CORONATION.
THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE IT
A RACE SO PEOPLE DO GET
INTERESTED IN THE
GENERAL PUBLIC, BUT MOST
IMPORTANTLY IN THE PARTY
BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT TO GET
THEMSELVES READY TO GENERATE
EXCITEMENT FOR WHOEVER WINS
BECAUSE THE NEXT ELECTION
IS NOT THAT FAR AWAY.

Steve says WELL, THE PROBABLY,
SUSANNA, IS THAT TWO OF THE
PEOPLE WHO SAY THE
REVOLUTION IS NOT YET OVER,
NAMELY JIM FLAHERTY AND
TONY CLEMENT, THEY BOTH
HAD BAD WEEKS.
YOU WANT TO
TALK ABOUT THAT?

Susanna says VERY BAD WEEKS.
JIM FLAHERTY OF COURSE AS WE
SEE MAY BE IN SECOND PLACE
HERE, MAKING THE STATEMENT
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ONLY
HAS TO PROVIDE HEALTHCARE
FOR NATIVE PEOPLES, WHEREAS
THE PROVINCES HAVE TO
PROVIDE IT FOR 'REAL
PEOPLE IN REAL TOWNS'.
OF COURSE THE INFERENCE
BEING NATIVE CANADIANS
ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE.

Steve says WE KNOW HE
DIDN'T MEAN THAT.

Susanna says HE TOOK A BIG HIT IN
THE MEDIA ABOUT THAT.
BUT YOU KNOW WHEN YOU GO TO
EVEN PEOPLE IN OTHER CAMPS
AND SAY, DO YOU REALLY
THINK JIM FLAHERTY THINKS
THAT NATIVE CANADIANS ARE
NOT REAL PEOPLE, THEY GO, NO.
BUT IT WAS A SLIP, AND
THEY'RE TAKING FULL
ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

Steve says IT'S A SLIP IN
A LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN.

Robert says AND IT'S A BAD THING.
YOU KNOW, LOOSE
LIPS SINK SHIPS.
A LOT OF TORIES LOOKING
AT SAYING, OKAY WE DON'T
BELIEVE HE REALLY MEANT TO
SAY THAT, BUT HE
DID
SAY IT.
HE DID APOLOGIZE, GIVE HIM
FULL MEASURE FOR THAT, HE
DID THE APPROPRIATE THING,
AND ACTUALLY HAVING KNOWN
FLAHERTY WHEN HE WAS
MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR
NATIVE AFFAIRS, I HAD THE
IMPRESSION HE HAD A VERY
GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE
NATIVE COMMUNITY IN THIS
PROVINCE, WHEREAS GENERALLY
THE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT
SINCE IPPERWASH AND RIGHT
TO THE PRESENT DAY.
SO I WAS SURPRISED
TO SEE THAT.
BUT IT'S THE KIND OF THING
THAT HAPPENS TO CANDIDATES.
THEY MAKE MISTAKES
AND THEY APOLOGIZE.
BUT I THINK THE PROBLEM FOR
HIM WAS THE LENGTH OF TIME
IT TOOK HIS CAMPAIGN TO
REALIZE, BOY HE JUST
STEPPED IN A BIG ONE,
WE BETTER DEAL WITH IT.
I MEAN, YOU END UP WITH A
MINISTER SAYING SOMETHING
LIKE THAT, AND YOUR PEOPLE,
YOUR HIGHLY PAID PR PEOPLE
DON'T UNDERSTAND THERE'S A
PROBLEM HERE, AND THEY CALL
BACK TO TORONTO, YEAH, IT
WAS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY IN
OTTAWA, NO PROBLEMS, ALL OF
A SUDDEN A REPORTER PUTS IT
OUT AND SAYING, WOW,
THERE'S A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.
I GOT AN URGENT FAX AT HOME
FROM THE CAMPAIGN SAYING,
LIKE ALL REPORTERS AT
QUEEN'S PARK, WE MADE
A MISTAKE, AND WE
APOLOGIZE FOR IT.

Susanna says THE OTHER PROBLEM FOR
FLAHERTY THIS WEEK WAS
THERE WAS AN ALLEGATION BY
THE CLEMENT CAMPAIGN THAT
FLAHERTY SUPPORTERS IN
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE
ESSENTIALLY CANCELLED A
QUITE LEGITIMATE HEALTHCARE
ANNOUNCEMENT BY TONY
CLEMENT, AND THEIR PURPOSE
IN DOING THAT WAS TO AID
FLAHERTY'S CAMPAIGN.

Steve says THEY DENIED THAT,
INCIDENTALLY.
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE DENIES
THAT JUST FOR THE RECORD.

Susanna says THEY DENY THAT, BUT BELIEVE
ME, THE RELATIONS BETWEEN
THE CLEMENT AND FLAHERTY
CAMPAIGNS TOOK ANOTHER
HIT ON THAT.

Steve says THAT WASN'T TONY'S ONLY
PROBLEM THIS WEEK, THOUGH.
HE HAD ANOTHER ONE.
TALK TO US ABOUT THAT.

Susanna says I THINK IT'S PROBABLY THE
MOST SERIOUS STORY THAT HAS
COME OUT, AND THE MOST
HARMFUL STORY THAT'S COME
OUT FOR ANY CANDIDATE IN
THIS CAMPAIGN SO FAR.
AND THAT IS TONY CLEMENT IS
PAYING HIS PRESS SECRETARY,
GORD HAUGH, WITH TAXPAYERS'
MONEY, 300,000 DOLLARS.
NOW, THAT IS MORE THAN THE
PREMIER MAKES, MORE THAN THE
CABINET MAKES, AND IT IS
CERTAINLY MORE THAN ANY
OTHER, I BELIEVE,
COMMUNICATION'S ASSISTANT
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
THEY MAKE MAYBE 100,000 DOLLARS.
AND I THINK FOR A FISCAL
CONSERVATIVE TO BE FOUND TO
BE PAYING THAT KIND OF
MONEY, AND PEOPLE ARE VERY
SUSPICIOUS BECAUSE
Mr. HAUGH HAS ACTED IN
OTHER LEADERSHIP
RACES BEFORE.
HE WORKED AS THE PR PERSON
FOR HUGH SEGAL, FOR
INSTANCE, WHEN HE RAN FOR
HEAD OF THE FEDERAL PCs.
SO PEOPLE ARE
VERY SUSPICIOUS.
AND I THINK THAT WAS
A BIG HIT FOR TONY.

Robert says HE ALSO WORKED IN THE
ALLIANCE CAMPAIGN, WHICH
MAY OR MAY NOT BE PART
OF HIS CV ANYMORE.
MAYBE SORT OF WANT TO FORGET
ABOUT WORKING FOR STOCKWELL DAY.
IT'S INTERESTING, A
LOT OF MONEY FOR FOLKS.
FOR SOMEBODY WHO MOSTLY UP
UNTIL NOW IS MAKING THE BEST
FAJITAS ON A CAMPAIGN
BUS IN ONTARIO.

Steve says EXPLAIN THAT REFERENCE.

Robert says GORD WORKED THE KITCHEN
IN THE BACK OF THE LAST
LEADER'S BUS, AND FRIDAY
NIGHT WAS FAJITA NIGHT, AND
GORD WAS MAKING...
BUT IT'S A LOT OF MONEY FOR
FOLKS, AND IT BREAKS DOWN
TO ABOUT 125 DOLLARS AN HOUR.
CLEMENT'S OFFICE SAYS
THAT'S VERY REASONABLE
FOR WHAT HE PROVIDES.
FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON ON
THE STREET, WHETHER IT'S IN
CORNWALL OR KAPUSKASING,
THAT'S A LOT OF BREAD,
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S
OUT OF THEIR WALLET.

Susanna says AND FOR THE AVERAGE
TORY WHO'S A FISCAL
CONSERVATIVE, WHO BELIEVES
IN TAX CUTS, THAT'S A LOT
OF MONEY.

Steve says HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT,
TONY DID GET SOME GOOD NEWS
THIS WEEK.
TOM LONG, CO-ARCHITECT, IF
YOU LIKE, OF TWO CAMPAIGNS,
MAJORITY GOVERNMENTS FOR
THE TORIES IN '95 AND '99,
CAME ON SIDE.
WHICH I FOUND INTERESTING
BECAUSE HE'S A PERSONAL
FRIEND OF JIM FLAHERTY'S.
THEY GO GOLF IN LAS VEGAS
EVERY YEAR TOGETHER.
AND HERE IS HE ON
TONY CLEMENT'S BAND.

Susanna says BUT HE'S ALSO BEEN A
PERSONAL FRIEND OF TONY'S
FOR A YEARS AND
YEARS AND YEARS.

Steve says TOUGH DECISION
FOR HIM, NO DOUBT.

Robert says I SUSPECT SO, YEAH.
IS IT AS IMPORTANT AS
IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO
CONSIDERING WHAT HAPPENED
TO LONG IN THE ALLIANCE
LEADERSHIP BID?
I THINK HE HAS A BIT OF
A TARNISHED REPUTATION.
TAKING NOTHING AWAY
FROM WHAT HE DID IN TWO
PROVINCIAL CAMPAIGNS, I WAS
SHOCKED, ACTUALLY, WHEN HE
ANNOUNCED FOR TONY.
AND TONY SEEMED TO BE A
LITTLE SHOCKED, AS WELL,
BUT WAS GOING TO TAKE
THAT SUPPORT NONETHELESS.

Steve says OKAY, LET'S TALK
ABOUT ELIZABETH WITMER A
LITTLE BIT BECAUSE HER
PERFORMANCE AT THE DEBATE,
I THINK, EVERYBODY
AGREED, WAS OKAY BUT NOT
INTERESTING AND
NOT VERY EXCITING.
AND HER MESSAGE HAS BEEN THE
REVOLUTION IS OVER, GANG,
AND WE'VE GOT TO MOVE ON,
AND WE'VE GOT TO BROADEN
THE BASE.
AND TO THE EXTENT THE PUBLIC
IS WATCHING THAT MESSAGE,
SHE'S IN SECOND
PLACE RIGHT NOW.
SO MAYBE ALL US SMART PEOPLE
WHO THINK SHE'S GOT TO KICK
IT INTO SECOND GEAR
AND START TO SHOW SOME
INTEREST, MAYBE HER PEOPLE
ARE SMARTER IN TRYING TO
KEEP THE TEMPERATURE DOWN AND
NOT GET OUT THERE TOO MUCH.

Susanna says ONE CRITICISM I DO HEAR,
THOUGH, IS THAT'S A GREAT
STRATEGY, THE REVOLUTION'S
OVER, WE'VE GOT TO MOVE TO
THE CENTRE AND MAKE NICE
WITH THE TEACHERS AND THE
NURSES, THAT IS A GREAT
STRATEGY FOR THE NEXT
ELECTION, BUT IT'S NOT
A GOOD STRATEGY FOR THE
LEADERSHIP CAMPAIGN BECAUSE
SHE'S NOT APPEALING TO THE
GENERAL PUBLIC.
SHE'S APPEALING TO TORIES
HERE WHO STILL ARE BIG
SUPPORTERS OF THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.

Steve says OKAY, I'M GOING TO
BRING UP ONE MORE BOARD,
AND THEN I WANT YOU
GUYS TO COMMENT ON THAT.
AND THIS IS, MICHAEL, IF WE
COULD, OUR THIRD GRAPHIC:

Another slate appears with the caption “Would you like to see the new premier: Take Ontario in a new direction?: 64 percent of the total population and 32 percent of the PC’s said ‘yes’; Or continue to lead as Mike Harris has?: 28 percent of the total population and 61 percent of the PC’s said ‘yes’.”

Steve says ROBERT, WHAT DO
YOU READ OUT OF THAT?

Robert says WELL, ERNIE IS VERY
WELL-POSITIONED BECAUSE HE'S
HARD TO PIN HIM DOWN ON WHETHER
THE REVOLUTION IS OR ISN'T OVER.
HE'S STILL A FRIEND OF THE
PREMIER, AND HE CARRIES SOME
BAGGAGE FROM THAT.
IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE ARE
LISTENING TO WITMER'S
MESSAGE, BUT NOT
WITHIN THE PARTY.
AND AFTER ALL, SHE MAY NOT
REALIZE THIS, BUT SHE'S GOT TO
WIN THE CONVENTION ON THE
23rd BEFORE SHE FACES THE
PEOPLE OF ONTARIO IN
AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN.

Steve says LAST TWENTY
TO YOU, SUSANNA.

Susanna says I THINK THERE'S ALSO A
MESSAGE HERE FOR THE PARTY.
I'M HEARING CRITICISM OUT
THERE THAT THERE IS VERY
LITTLE POLICY BEING DEBATED.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A LOT
OF MISCHIEF, KIND OF CHEAP
STORIES OUT THERE, BUT THE
REAL POLICY ISSUES ARE NOT
GETTING DEBATED.
CANDIDATES, THEY BLAME
THE MEDIA FOR THAT.
THE MEDIA SAYS TO THE
CANDIDATES, YOU HAD A PRIME
OPPORTUNITY AT THE DEBATE TO
DO THAT AND YOU DIDN'T DO IT.
SOME PEOPLE SAY THIS IS
THE TIME TO DO IT, OTHER
PEOPLE IN THE PARTY SAY IT'S
NOT REALLY THE TIME FOR THAT.
THIS IS ABOUT A
NOMINATION FIGHT.
THIS IS NOT, AS OUR OWN
MAC PENNEY SAID TO ME THIS
WEEK, THIS IS NOT
ABOUT HEARTS AND MINDS,
THIS IS ABOUT
BUTTS AND BEHINDS.

Steve says THAT IS TRUE.

Susanna says SO
MAYBE WE'RE NAIVE.

Steve says THAT IS TRUE.
OKAY, FIVE DEBATES AND
ALMOST TWO MONTHS STILL TO GO,
SO WE'LL KEEP WATCHING.
ROBERT, SUSANNA, THANKS FOR
THE 411 FROM THE BACKROOMS.

Susanna says MY PLEASURE.

Steve says AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
NOW, WE KNOW NEXT WEEK IS
SUPERBOWL SUNDAY, BUT THE
GAME DOESN'T START UNTIL
SIX, SO WE INVITE YOU TO
JOIN US AT NOON, LONG
BEFORE THE KICK-OFF FOR
ANOTHER FUN FILLED
EDITION OF
4th READING.
SO LONG, EVERYONE.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ted Ambrose.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 258