Transcript: Fourth Reading - Oak Ridges Moraine | Nov 04, 2001

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.

Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS
WEEK ON 4th READING.
THE GREENING OF THE
TORIES: URBAN SPRAWL
HITS THE WALL ON THE
OAK RIDGES MORAINE.

Steve, Ruth, Richard, Mac and another panellist sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a gray blazer over a black shirt.

Mac is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with very short white hair. He wears a blue suit, blue shirt, polka dotted tie and a red pin.

Richard is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with short wavy gray hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt, printed tie and a red pin.

Ruth is in her mid-sixties, with short straight white hair. She wears a beige shirt, a blue blazer, a brooch and a red pin.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
AND THIS IS 4th READING.
THE HARRIS TORIES
HAVE BEEN CALLED
A LOT OF THINGS, BUT
ENVIRONMENTALISTS
IS NOT ONE
OF THEM.
NOR DO THEY PARTICULARLY
HAVE A REPUTATION
FOR BEING
CONSULTATIVE.
BUT EVEN THE GOVERNMENT'S
STRONGEST CRITICS
WERE SET BACK ON
THEIR HEELS THIS WEEK
WHEN THE CONSERVATIVES
MOVED TO HALT DEVELOPMENT
ON ALMOST ALL OF THE
ECOLOGICALLY SENSITIVE
OAK RIDGES MORAINE
NORTH OF TORONTO.
WORDS LIKE STUNNING AND
MONUMENTAL ARE BEING USED
TO DESCRIBE THE
ANNOUNCEMENT,
INCLUDING THE CREATION
OF A HUGE PUBLIC PARK IN
NEARBY RICHMOND
HILL.
IN A MOMENT, WE'LL
TALK TO THE MAN
WHO PUT THE
DEAL TOGETHER,
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
MINISTER CHRIS HODGSON.
FIRST, SOME BACKGROUND.

Chris Hodgson gives a speech at a park.

Chris is in his early forties, clean-shaven and with very short graying hair. He wears a blue suit, a white shirt and a blue tie.

He says LADIES
AND GENTLEMEN,
THE PROPOSED
LEGISLATION AND PLAN IN
THE OAK RIDGES MORAINE
FOUNDATION WOULD GO
A LONG WAY TOWARDS
PROTECTING THE MORAINE
IN THE FUTURE.

Steve says IT'S A RARE
MOMENT IN POLITICS.
[applause]
GROUPS ON POLAR OPPOSITE
SIDES OF AN ISSUE
RAVING ABOUT THE
SAME POLICY.

Chris says THE GOVERNMENT
ALSO PLANS TO...

Steve says BUT THAT'S
WHAT HAPPENED WHEN
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MINISTER
CHRIS HODGSON UNVEILED
THE GOVERNMENT'S PLAN
TO PRESERVE ALMOST ALL
OF THE OAK
RIDGES MORAINE.

A caption reads “Chris Hodgson. Minister of Municipal Affairs.”

Chris says I KNOW
THERE'S PEOPLE THAT ARE
CYNICAL ABOUT
GOVERNMENT.
BUT SOMETIMES, WE
DO GET IT RIGHT.
AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE
OCCASIONS WHERE I THINK
WE'VE GOT IT RIGHT.

Steve says THE PLAN CALLS FOR A
COMPLETE DEVELOPMENT
FREEZE IN THE NATURAL
WOODLANDS THAT MAKE UP
38 PERCENT OF
THE MORAINE.
NEW GRAVEL PITS WILL
BE THE ONLY DEVELOPMENT
ALLOWED IN ANOTHER 24
PERCENT OF THE MORAINE,
LINKING THE LARGER
NATURAL AREAS.
HOWEVER, NEW GRAVEL PITS
WILL ALSO BE ALLOWED
IN THE COUNTRYSIDE
AREAS THAT MAKE UP
THE REMAINING THIRD
OF THE MORAINE.
THIS LEAVES 54 PERCENT
OF THE MORAINE OPEN TO
GRAVEL EXTRACTION.
WHILE ONLY 8 PERCENT
OF THE MORAINE WILL BE OPEN
TO DEVELOPMENT
IN SETTLEMENT AREAS.

Chris says THE PRESSURE
ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL SIDE
WAS THAT THEY'VE BEEN FIGHTING
THIS FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS.
NO MOVEMENT
HAD TAKEN PLACE.
THE GOVERNMENT HAD SET UP
STUDIES AND PUSHED IT OFF
TO ANOTHER DAY.
AND THEY FELT THAT
THEY WEREN'T DOING
THE ENVIRONMENT ANY GOOD
OR PASSING ON ANY LEGACY
TO FUTURE GENERATIONS,
OTHER THAN MAKING
A LOT OF NOISE.
AND SO, THEY WANTED TO
BE PART OF A SOLUTION.
ON THE DEVELOPER'S
SIDE, THE PRESSURE IS THAT
THEY'RE WASTING A LOT OF
MONEY BEFORE THE O.M.B.

Steve says ANOTHER REASON
THE DEAL WAS STRUCK:
A LAND SWAP.
1,000 ACRES OWNED BY
DEVELOPERS ON THE MORAINE
WILL BE TRADED FOR
LAND OFF THE MORAINE
NORTH OF PICKERING.

The caption changes to “David Crombie. Oak Ridges Mediator.”

David is in his fifties, clean-shaven and with short receding white hair. He wears a black suit and a black T-shirt.

He says THE MINISTER
WAS ABLE TO SECURE FROM
HIS GOVERNMENT,
AND THE
WILLINGNESS OF THAT
GOVERNMENT TO PUT ON
THE TABLE LANDS OFF
THE MORAINE FOR EXCHANGE.
WITHOUT THAT, IT WOULD NOT
HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE TO DO.

Steve says THE LAND SWAP WAS
FINALIZED ON THE MORNING
OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT.
MANY OF THE DETAILS,
INCLUDING THE PRICE,
HAVE YET TO BE
IRONED OUT.
WITH MORE THAN HALF THE
MORAINE OPEN TO NEW GRAVEL
EXTRACTION, SOME
BELIEVE THE REGULATIONS
ARE TOO BROAD.

A map of the area appears.

The caption changes to “Linda Pim. The Federation of Ontario Naturalists.”

Linda is in her late forties, with short slightly wavy graying hair. She wears a gingham shirt, a blue blazer and pendant earrings.

She says IF THEY'RE
TRULY NATURAL LINKAGES,
THEY SHOULD BE TOTALLY
AVAILABLE TO WILDLIFE
FOR PASSAGE AND FOR
THE PRESENCE OF
HIKING TRAILS
AND WHATEVER.
THE EXISTING AGGREGATE
OPERATIONS UNDER EXISTING
LICENSES SHOULD BE
ALLOWED TO CONTINUE
UNTIL THEY'RE
EXHAUSTED.
BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO NEW
OR EXPANDED AGGREGATES
IN THE LINKAGES.

The caption changes to “Neil Rodgers. Urban Development Institute.”

Neil is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short graying hair. He wears a gray shirt and a blue and red jacket.

Neil says IF YOU
ASK THE QUESTION TO THE
ENVIRONMENTAL
ORGANIZATIONS, TOO,
THEY WILL SAY THERE COULD
BE POTENTIAL LOOPHOLES.
SO, I THINK AT FACE VALUE,
WHAT WE'VE SEEN HERE TODAY
IS A GREAT START.
BUT THE DEVIL WILL BE
IN THE DETAIL AND
WE LOOK FORWARD TO
SEEING THAT LEGISLATION.

Steve says STILL, ONE OF
THE GOVERNMENT'S MOST
VOCIFEROUS CRITICS
WAS HAPPY.

The caption changes to “Glenn De Baeremaeker. Save The Rouge Valley System.”

Glenn is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short wavy brown hair. He wears a gray sweatshirt.

Glenn says
BEFORE, IT WAS EITHER
ONE SIDE WAS GONNA LOSE;
IT WAS GONNA BE SAVED
OR PAVED.
NOW, WE'RE SAVING THE
MORAINE AND WE'RE PAVING
SOMETHING ELSE.

The caption changes to “John Riley. Panel Member-Nature Conservancy.”

John is in his late forties, with short wavy brown hair and a moustache. He wears a gingham shirt and a blue jacket.

John says HE
DID A FINE JOB,
I THINK, IN STAYING AWAY
AND TRUSTING A PROCESS
TO ROLL FORWARD.
AND THAT'S, I THINK,
SOMETIMES TOUGH
FOR POLITICIANS TO DO.
AND I APPRECIATE IT.
IT'S POLITICALLY
INCORRECT TO EVER
THANK A POLITICIAN, BUT
I'M WILLING TO DO IT,
FOR SURE.

Steve says WELL, WE'LL TRY TO BE A
LITTLE MORE POLITICALLY
CORRECT HERE - OR POLITE,
ANYWAY - AS WE DISCUSS
THE OAK RIDGES MORAINE
DECISION WITH OUR GUEST.
HERE HE IS, MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS MINISTER CHRIS
HODGSON, THE
CONSERVATIVE MPP FOR
HALIBURTON-VICTORIA-BROCK.
WELCOME BACK
TO TVO, CHRIS;
NICE TO HAVE
YOU HERE.

Chris says THANKS FOR INVITING ME.

Steve says YOU KNOW
OUR GANG OVER HERE.
HERE'S A FORMER
ENVIRONMENT MINISTER WHO
MAY HAVE A THING OR
TWO TO SAY ABOUT THIS.
THERE'S RUTH GRIER, FORMER
ENVIRONMENT MINISTER
WITH THE NDP.
RICHARD MAHONEY,
FROM THE LAW FIRM
FRASER MILNER CASGRAIN
AND A PAST PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS.
FROM GPC - THAT'S GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS -
MAC PENNEY
IS WITH US.
WELCOME BACK TO
YOU GUYS AS WELL.
FOR YEARS,
ENVIRONMENTALISTS,
I THINK, HAVE BEEN TRYING
TO CONVINCE YOU AND YOUR
GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS.
AND YOU'VE NOT
WANTED TO UNTIL NOW.
WHAT CONVINCED YOU
THAT NOW WAS THE TIME?

Chris says I THINK YOU'VE SEEN A LOT
OF THINGS TAKE PLACE IN
THE LAST NUMBER
OF YEARS.
WE DID THE LANDS
FOR LIFE EXERCISE,
WHICH COMPLETED THE
PARK SYSTEM IN THE NORTH.
AND PEOPLE SAW THAT
YOU CAN GET CONSENSUS.
OUR CAUCUS, LED
BY FRANK KLEES,
STEVE GILCHRIST, AND
OTHERS WITH RIDINGS ON
THE MORAINE, WANTED TO SEE
SOME RESOLUTION OF THIS.
OTHER GOVERNMENTS HAVE HAD
STUDIES AND THERE'S BEEN
A LOT OF WORK DONE IN
COURSE OF THE ARGUMENTS
BEFORE THE O.M.B.
WE ALSO WERE GOING
OUT CONSULTING
ON SMART GROWTH.
AND PEOPLE WERE SAYING,
LOOK AT THE OAK RIDGES
MORAINE CONTROVERSY,
KEEPS RISING UP.

Steve says SO, THE CONFLUENCE
OF THINGS COMING TOGETHER?

Chris says THE THINGS AS WELL,
THE REGIONAL GOVERNMENTS
AND THE CONSERVATION
AUTHORITIES WERE GOING OUT
WITH PUBLIC CONSULTATION
ON THE NEW PLAN.
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME
TO TAKE A TIME OUT AND
MAKE SURE ALL OF THIS
STUFF IS CONSISTENT AND
COORDINATED AND PROTECTS
THE ENVIRONMENT.

Steve says I WANT TO
KNOW HOW YOU...
GIVE US SOME FLAVOUR OF
BEHIND THE SCENES HERE.
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE
REALLY WANT TO EXPLAIN TO
OUR VIEWERS, HOW THIS
THING CAME TOGETHER.
DO YOU AT SOME POINT GO
TO DEVELOPERS AND SAY,
LOOK IT, YOU'RE NOT GOING
TO GET TO DEVELOP THIS
LAND THAT YOU OWN
IN THE MORAINE.
SO, EITHER YOU
MAKE A TRADE,
WE MAKE A DEAL, WE DO
SOMETHING THAT'S IN THE
PUBLIC INTEREST, OR YOU'RE
GOING TO BE FIGHTING US
WITH LEGAL FEES FOR
THE NEXT 25 YEARS.
AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
SEE A DIME FROM THIS.
YOUR KIDS ARE NOT GOING
TO SEE A DIME FROM THIS.
AND SO ON.
DO YOU HAVE TO MAKE THAT
STATEMENT AT SOME POINT?

Chris says I THINK THE PUBLIC AND
THE DEVELOPERS AND
THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS
WERE AHEAD OF
THE OPINION LEADERS IN
THIS PROVINCE.
THEY HAD REALIZED THAT
THEY WERE WASTING TIME
AND MONEY FIGHTING, AND
THEY WANTED TO SEE
A RESOLUTION.
WHEN I INTRODUCED
THE LEGISLATION,
IT WAS ENDORSED BY ALL
THREE PARTIES IN MAY TO
TAKE A SIX-MONTH
TIMEOUT.
THERE WAS A LOT OF
CYNICISM THAT THIS WAS
A POLITICAL PLOY.
I REMEMBER
HEARING THAT.
BUT THE PUBLIC KNEW
THAT WE NEEDED TO FIND
A CONSENSUS AND
COMMON GROUND ON THIS.
SO, WE SET UP AN ADVISORY
BOARD OF THE PEOPLE THAT
ARE INVOLVED IN THE
OAK RIDGES MORAINE,
THE COMPETING
INTERESTS, AGRICULTURE,
AGGREGATES, DEVELOPERS,
ENVIRONMENTALISTS,
MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS.
AND THE CREDIT GOES TO
THEM FOR THEIR HARD WORK
OVER THE SUMMER TO HAMMER
OUT A PLAN WHICH PROTECTS
100 PERCENT OF THE
NATURAL FEATURES,
HAS NEW POLICIES TO
PROTECT THE WATER QUALITY
AND QUANTITY, A CORRIDOR
WITH A TRAIL SYSTEM FROM
NORTHUMBERLAND RIGHT ACROSS
TO THE NIAGARA ESCARPMENT.

Steve says THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH, BUT AT
SOME POINT YOU HAD TO GET
THIS THROUGH CABINET.
AT SOME POINT, YOU HAD
TO CONVINCE YOUR CABINET
COLLEAGUES, WHO, WITH ALL
DUE RESPECT, THIS IS NOT
THE GREENEST GOVERNMENT
IN THE HISTORY OF ONTARIO.
YOU HAD TO CONVINCE
THEM TO GO FOR THIS.
HOW'D YOU DO THAT?

Chris says I THINK OUR RECORD
ON THE ENVIRONMENT
WILL STAND UP TO ANY
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.

Steve says I THINK YOU MIGHT GET SOME
DISAGREEMENT FROM THIS
SIDE OF THE TABLE,
BUT I DON'T WANT TO
GET INTO THAT.

Chris says THE LANDS FOR LIFE PROCESS
WITH THE LIVING LEGACY.
BUT HAVING SAID THAT,
THE CABINET TRUSTED
THE PROCESS, THE PREMIER
WAS BEHIND ME AND
ENCOURAGED ME TO
FIND A SOLUTION
TO THIS CHALLENGE.
AND I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH
TO WORK WITH PEOPLE THAT
WERE WILLING TO PUT THEIR
PERSONAL INTERESTS ASIDE
AND LOOK AT THE BIG
PICTURE IN THE LONG TERM.

Steve says LET'S GET SOME FEEDBACK
TO THIS BIG PICTURE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS,
FORMER ENVIRONMENT MINISTER?

The caption changes to “Ruth Grier. Former Ontario Cabinet Minister.”

Ruth says I'M PREPARED TO SAY
THANK YOU, MINISTER.
I THINK THAT IT DOES THE
MINISTER A GREAT DEAL
OF CREDIT.
I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT
IN HINTING THAT HE HAD
SOME STRUGGLES WITH
SOME OF HIS COLLEAGUES
TO GET TO THIS POINT,
BUT HE DID THAT.
AND I THINK THAT HE
DESERVES THE CREDIT
FOR DOING THAT.
THERE'S A LOT
MORE TO HAPPEN;
THIS IS ONLY
THE BEGINNING.
THERE'S A LOT MORE,
AND I DON'T THINK
ALL THE CONTROVERSY IS
FINISHED IN THE FUTURE.
BUT IT REALLY IS A VERY
SOUND AND SOLID FOUNDATION
FROM WHICH WE CAN ALL
A LOT OF PEOPLE
WERE INVOLVED.
DAVID CROMBIE'S WORK AT
THE LAST MINUTE IN GETTING
A DEAL WAS, I THINK,
PART OF THE TIMING.
AND A LOT OF
PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED,
AND THEY'RE GOING TO STAY
INVOLVED TO MAKE SURE
IT WORKS OUT.

Steve says RUTH, I NOTICED THAT THERE
WILL BE, IN FUTURE,
GRAVEL EXTRACTION PERMITTED
ON WHAT TURNS OUT TO BE
54 PERCENT OF THE
MORAINE, INCLUDING
SOME SENSITIVE
LINKAGES.
NOW, THAT'S GOT TO
PRESUMABLY GIVE YOU
CAUSE FOR CONCERN.

Ruth says THAT'S A HUGE
CONCERN OF MINE,
AND I THINK SOME OF THE
EUPHORIA YESTERDAY
IN SAYING HOW
WONDERFUL IT WAS,
BECAUSE BEFORE PEOPLE
HAD READ THE ACT
AND EVEN SEEN
THE MAPS.
AND SO, THE FACT
THAT THERE CAN BE
NEW EXTRACTION AT ALL
IS A CONCERN OF MINE.
AND WITHIN THE LINKAGES, I
CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC
FOR THAT, BECAUSE THE
LINKAGE HAS TO REMAIN
AT A MINIMUM
OF 600 METRES.
BUT YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO HAVE A VERY
ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY
TRAIL GOING BY IF THERE IS
A HUGE GRAVEL PIT.

Steve says LET'S GET YOUR
PIECE ON THAT.

Chris says FIRST OF ALL, AGGREGATES
ARE ESSENTIAL FOR
THE PROVINCE'S ECONOMY.
I THINK YOU WOULD
RECOGNIZE THAT, RUTH.
IT'S A PROVINCIAL
INTEREST.
NOBODY LIKES TO HAVE A
GRAVEL PIT NEXT DOOR
TO THEIR HOUSE.
BUT THE REALITY IS, WE
NEED IT FOR OUR ROADS,
OUR BUILDINGS.
OUR MUNICIPALITIES
AND GOVERNMENTS
ARE THE LARGEST
PURCHASERS OF GRAVEL.
SO, YOU NEED IT CLOSE
TO THE MARKETS AS WELL.
OTHERWISE, YOU'RE TAXED
AND THE COST GO UP.
THE COMPROMISE WAS THAT
IT'S NOT GOING TO AFFECT
THE NATURAL FEATURES.
THAT HAS TO BE
PROTECTED 100 PERCENT.
WHERE THERE'S EXISTING
OPERATIONS IN
THESE QUARRIES,
THEY CAN CONTINUE,
BUT THEY CAN'T
EXPAND.
AND THERE'S A TEN-YEAR
REVIEW TO SEE IF
THE SCIENCE HAS
CHANGED AROUND THAT,
BUT IT CAN'T EXPAND.
AND THE LINKAGE
AREAS, THIS IS
A TWO-KILOMETRE-WIDE
CORRIDOR.
WHAT THE PANEL WAS
DISCUSSING WAS WHERE
THERE'S EXISTING
OPERATIONS,
THEY HAVE TO REHABILITATE
AND PUT THEM IN
A NATURAL STATE BEFORE
THEY CAN EXPAND IT.
SO, THERE IS A ROBUST
CORRIDOR WHERE THERE
IS WILDLIFE AND A TRAIL
SYSTEM THAT IS LEFT INTACT
AND CONNECTED.
SO, THAT WAS
A COMPROMISE.

Ruth says BUT I THINK THE
NIAGARA ESCARPMENT PLAN
IS STRONGER WITH RESPECT
TO NEW AGGREGATE.
I MEAN, THE SAME ARGUMENTS
COULD BE MADE THERE:
CLOSE TO THE MARKET
AND ALL THE REST OF IT.
AND IT MIGHT BE WORTH
LOOKING AT THAT
AS YOU BRING IN
THE REGULATIONS.

Steve says THAT'S FREE
ADVICE FROM YOU HERE.

Chris says WELL,
IT GETS TOUGHER.
THERE'S ONLY TWO LARGE
PLACES WHERE YOU GET
AGGREGATES.
THERE'S THE NIAGARA
ESCARPMENT AND
THE OAK RIDGES
MORAINE.
IF YOU BAN BOTH OF
THOSE FROM NEW AGGREGATE
OPERATIONS, YOU'RE FORCING
IT UP TO BRECHIN AND
OTHER PLACES WHERE THEY DON'T
HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE
TO HANDLE THE
TRUCKS OR OTHER...

Steve says I'M ALWAYS HAPPY TO
HAVE A LAWYER AT THE TABLE
SINCE I KNOW YOU'RE NOT,
YOU'RE NOT, YOU'RE NOT,
I'M NOT.
RICHARD, ARE
YOU A LAWYER?

Richard says I AM.

Steve says EXCELLENT.
SOMEBODY SAID IN THE
BACKGROUND PIECE
THE DEVIL IS IN
THE DETAILS.
AND A LOT HAS BEEN
ANNOUNCED HERE SO FAR.
BUT THE FACT IS THE
DEVELOPERS AND
THE GOVERNMENT,
I DON'T THINK.
HAVE COME TO AN AGREEMENT
YET ABOUT HOW MUCH
THEY'RE GOING TO - WHAT THE
TRADE-UPS ARE GOING TO BE,
IN TERMS OF THE PRICE
OR THE LAND AND SO ON.
SO, IS THIS
CELEBRATION PREMATURE?
BECAUSE THE DEVIL
IS IN THE DETAILS
AND WE DON'T KNOW
THE DETAILS YET.

The caption changes to “Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor.”

Richard says SURE, THE DEVIL'S
ALWAYS IN THE DETAILS.
BUT LET ME JUST
ECHO WHAT RUTH SAID;
I THINK I WANT TO
CONGRATULATE THE MINISTER.
I THINK IT WAS A VERY
SENSIBLE MOVE TO FREEZE
DEVELOPMENT IN
THE MORAINE.
AS FAR AS THE
DETAILS GO, OF COURSE,
THERE ARE ALL
SORTS OF ISSUES.
THERE'S ONLY THE AGGREGATE
GRAVEL PIT ISSUE AND
THE ENVIRONMENTAL
RAMIFICATIONS OF THAT.
BUT I GATHER ON THE
SAME DAY THAT THIS IS
INTRODUCED, THIS WEEK WE
ALSO INTRODUCED A NUMBER
OF AMENDMENTS TO
THE BUILDING CODE
AND SO FORTH.
WHO KNOWS WHAT'S
IN THERE.
MAYBE THERE ARE
SOME TRADEOFFS
FOR THE DEVELOPERS.
WHAT I WOULD
POINT OUT IS THAT,
YES, WE CAN CONGRATULATE
THE GOVERNMENT,
I THINK, FOR
DOING THIS TODAY.
BUT THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS
AND BEING CONVERTED
IN THIS IS A
LONG ONE.
FOR THREE YEARS,
THE OPPOSITION,
THE LIBERAL OPPOSITION,
HAS BEEN INTRODUCING
THIS ISSUE.
AND ONE OF MISTER
HODGSON'S PREDECESSORS,
MISTER CLEMENT, MOCKED
THE OPPOSITION AND SAID,
YOU CAN'T FREEZE
DEVELOPMENT,
AND SO FORTH.
I GUESS IF COULD BE
PARTISAN FOR A SECOND,
WE'RE PROBABLY LUCKY TODAY
THAT MINISTER HODGSON
IS THE MINISTER.
IF MISTER CLEMENT WERE STILL
THE MINISTER RESPONSIBLE,
I DON'T THINK WE WOULD'VE
GOT THIS FREEZE.
AND FOR THAT, I
THINK WE'RE GRATEFUL.
BUT THERE'S LOTS OF DEVILS
AND LOTS OF DETAILS.
AND WE'LL HAVE TO
WAIT FOR THOSE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I
THINK YOU DO GET KUDOS
FOR THE FREEZE.

Steve says LET ME ASK
THIS TO YOU, MAC.
IT'S TRUE THE GOVERNMENT
AT THE END OF THE DAY
HAS TO MAKE
THE DECISION.
AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS
MADE A DECISION THAT IT
SEEMS A BROAD CONSENSUS
OF PEOPLE IS BEHIND.
IS IT ALSO FAIR TO SAY
THAT WITHOUT THE CONSTANT
HARANGUE OF OPPOSITION
POLITICIANS FOR THE LAST
THREE YEARS, AND OTHER
INTEREST GROUPS THAT
WE SAW IN THE BACKGROUND
PIECE AS WELL,
WE WOULDN'T HAVE
GOT TO THIS DAY?

The caption changes to “Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor.”

Mac says I THINK THERE'S A
PROCESS AT PLAY HERE,
AS THE MINISTER
NOTED.
THERE'S A
CONSULTATION PROCESS,
THERE'S PRESSURE FROM
ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS,
PRESSURE FROM
DEVELOPERS,
PRESSURE FROM THE
OPPOSITION PARTIES.
I THINK A BROAD
CONSENSUS WAS FORMED,
I THINK THE MINISTER'S
BEEN, IN MY VIEW,
VERY MODEST ABOUT
HIS OWN ROLE IN THAT.
I THINK THAT HE WAS
PRETTY INSTRUMENTAL AS
AN INDIVIDUAL IN DRIVING
THAT PROCESS FORWARD.
I THINK IT WAS MISTER CROMBIE
ALLUDED TO IT IN HIS
REMARKS IN THE
BACKGROUND PIECE,
THAT I THINK IT WAS
MISTER HODGSON WHO WENT
TO CABINET AND GOT THE
RESOURCES NECESSARY
TO DO A DEAL.
AND I THINK THAT'S
VERY IMPORTANT.

Richard says I THINK THAT
EVEN MAC WOULD AGREE,
AND ON PREVIOUS SHOWS HAS,
IF THERE'S A WEAK LINK
IN THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION CHAIN
IT'S THE ENVIRONMENT;
IT'S NOT EXACTLY BEEN
THEIR STRONG SUIT.
WE TALKED LAST WEEK ABOUT
POLITICAL CHANGES AT
THE POLICY CONFERENCE
LAST WEEKEND.
HERE IS A MAJOR POLICY
CHANGE OF THE GOVERNMENT -
VERY SIGNIFICANT
IN RESPONSE,
I SUSPECT, TO POLLS.

Mac says CAN I JUST RESPOND
TO THAT QUITE QUICKLY?

Ruth says ONLY IF I CAN
THEN FOLLOW UP.

Mac says QUITE QUICKLY,
MINISTER HODGSON SAID,
THE ENVIRONMENTAL
RECORD OF THIS GOVERNMENT
WILL STAND UP
AGAINST ANY PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT
OF ONTARIO.

Ruth says OH, COME ON NOW!

Mac says NO, NO, NO, NO.
I SAID DRIVE
CLEAN IS ONE.
LANDS FOR LIFE
IS ANOTHER.
THE W.D.O. IS ANOTHER.
OAK RIDGES MORAINE.
THOSE ARE FOUR
MAJOR PROGRAMS THAT
HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED
BY THIS GOVERNMENT.
AND RUTH, NAME ME THE
ENVIRONMENTAL LEGACY
THE LIBERAL GOVERNMENT OR
THE ENVIRONMENTAL LEGACY
OF THE NDP
GOVERNMENT HAS -

Ruth says WE HAVEN'T
ENOUGH TIME.

Mac says THOSE ARE FOUR
PROGRAMS WHICH...

Ruth says BUT STEVE'S QUESTION WAS
ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED.
AND YOU MENTIONED THE
WORK AND THE CONSENSUS.
I THINK THE VOTERS
OF AURORA-VAUGHAN,
OR WHATEVER THAT
905 RIDING WAS,
HAVE TO TAKE
SOME CREDIT.
AND THE VOTERS OF
BEACHES AND EAST YORK.
BECAUSE THE LACK OF
ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVITY
BY THIS GOVERNMENT

AND WE'LL HAVE
ANOTHER SHOW ON THAT, I'M
SURE - WAS OBVIOUS
AND THIS IS
A CHANGE.
WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT
THERE'S BEEN A CHANGE ON
TRANSIT AND A CHANGE
ON THE MORAINE.
BOTH 905 ISSUES, AND BOTH
MOVING THE GOVERNMENT
AWAY FROM THE VERY
IDEOLOGICAL RIGHT
TO A MORE LEFT-LEANING
APPROACH,
WHICH IS FUN TO
CONTEMPLATE.

Steve says CHRIS HODGSON.

Chris says ANYBODY CAN SIT
AROUND AND HAVE
A REVISIONIST
HISTORY.
I WOULD ECHO MAC'S POINT
ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT'S
RECORD ON THE
ENVIRONMENT.
WE'VE LANDS FOR LIFE
THAT WASN'T IN TORONTO,
BUT IT WAS A MONUMENTAL
PROCESS AND
A HUGE DECISION THAT'S
BEEN RECOGNIZED AROUND
THE WORLD FOR CREATING
AND COMPLETING
OUR PARK SYSTEM.
THE MANAGED FOREST
TAX REBATE,
WHICH WAS CANCELLED UNDER
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS,
IS A WAY TO PRESERVE
TREES ON LAND TO MAKE IT
AFFORDABLE TO DO SO.
THERE'S THE DRIVE CLEAN.
IN TERMS OF THE TRANSIT,
THAT'S NOT A REVERSAL
OF THE DECISION.
WE TRADED EDUCATION
FOR HARD SERVICES.
WHEN WE'RE OUT CONSULTING
ON SMART GROWTH,
PEOPLE SAID, YOU
NEED MORE TRANSIT,
YOU NEED MORE ROADS, YOU
NEED MORE INFRASTRUCTURE.
SO, IN ADDITION TO
THE TRADE ON EDUCATION,
WE'RE PUTTING 300 MILLION
NEW DOLLARS - TO HELP ON
THE OAK RIDGES
MORAINE.
I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR
CHARACTERIZATION THAT
I HAD TO FORCE THE
GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS.
THE GOVERNMENT
ALWAYS WANTED TO DO
THE RIGHT THING.
WE JUST NEEDED A
PROCESS TO GET THERE -

Steve says CAN I TALK
TO YOU ABOUT THAT?
I DO WANT TO ASK
YOU ABOUT THAT,
BECAUSE...
WITHOUT BEING
SILLY ABOUT THIS,
I WANT TO DO A
LITTLE POLI-SCI 101 HERE.
THERE'S KIND OF TWO
DIFFERENT WAYS TO GOVERN.
AND I THINK IT IS FAIR TO
SAY THAT THE CONSERVATIVES
UP UNTIL NOW HAVE
BASICALLY SAID,
HERE'S WHAT
WE'RE ABOUT TO DO.
IF YOU DON'T
LIKE IT, SORRY,
BUT HERE'S WHAT
WE'RE GOING TO DO.
YOU DIDN'T DO
THAT IN THIS CASE.
THIS IS SORT OF A
MUCH MORE CLASSIC,
IF I CAN PUT IT THIS WAY,
OLD STYLE TORY IDEA OF
PUTTING COMPETING
INTERESTS IN A ROOM AND
TRYING TO CARVE
OUT A SOLUTION.
WHY DID YOU DO
IT THIS WAY,
THIS TIME, INSTEAD
OF THE OTHER WAY,
WHICH IS REALLY THE WAY
YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS MADE
MOST DECISIONS IN
THE PAST SIX YEARS?

Chris says I GUESS YOU HAVEN'T BEEN
WATCHING ALL THE DECISIONS.
THE PREMIER ASKED ME
TO FIND A SOLUTION,
JUST LIKE HE ASKED ME
TO FIND A SOLUTION ON
THE FISH AND GAME ACT,
WHICH WAS OUTDATED AND
HADN'T BEEN CHANGED
FROM THE '50s.
THERE WAS 20 DIFFERENT
INTERESTS THERE THAT
SIGNED ON AND AGREED
TO THE CHANGES.

Steve says I DON'T NEED
YOUR PORTFOLIO.
I KNOW, LANDS FOR LIFE
IS ALSO COLLABORATIVE.
[talking over each other]
HANG ON A SECOND.
[talking over each other]
YOU'RE ONLY TALKING
ABOUT - JUST A SECOND,
JUST A SECOND.
YOU'RE ONLY - IF I
MAY, MISTER PENNEY.
YOU'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT
THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN ON
YOUR DESK.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER
THINGS THIS GOVERNMENT
DID - THERE'S GOING
TO BE TAX CUTS, DAMN IT!
IF YOU DON'T LIKE
IT, TOUGH LUCK.

Richard says THERE'S GOING TO BE
DOWNLOADING, DAMN IT.

Steve says IF YOU DON'T LIKE
IT, TOUGH LUCK.
WE'RE GOING TO GET
RID OF SCHOOL BOARDS;
DAMNED IF YOU
DON'T LIKE IT.
WE'RE GOING TO DO TORONTO
AMALGAMATION, DAMN IT.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE
IT, TOUGH LUCK.
THIS IS DIFFERENT,
THIS IS DIFFERENT.
THIS IS OLD-STYLE
BROKERAGE POLITICS,
WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE
THINK ACTUALLY YOU GUYS
SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING
MORE OF ALL THE WAY ALONG.

Chris says THE PREMIER ASKED ME TO
FIND A SOLUTION TO THIS.
THE ONLY WAY I KNEW TO DO
IT WAS TO GET PEOPLE THAT
KNEW WHAT THEY WERE
TALKING ABOUT AT THE TABLE
TO SEE IF THERE WAS COMMON
GROUND ON MOVING FORWARD.
GIVEN THE FACT THAT
WE'VE COME OUT WITH
A LEGISLATION WHICH, IF
PASSED BY THE HOUSE,
WILL PROTECT
100 PERCENT OF
ALL THE NATURAL
FEATURES.

Steve says FOR HOW LONG?

Chris says FOREVER; THAT'S
IN PERPETUITY.
THERE IS A CLAUSE THAT
A TEN-YEAR REVIEW
CANNOT DIMINISH THE SIZE OF
THE QUARRY AREAS
OR THE LINKAGE
AREAS.
THAT'S BECAUSE I THINK
THE TEN-YEAR REVIEW
SHOULD LOOK AT THE
SETTLEMENT AREA, BUT NOT
THE ENVIRONMENTAL FEATURES
OR THE WATER FEATURES.

Ruth says I DON'T DISAGREE
WITH THE TEN-YEAR REVIEW.
PLANNING HAS GOT TO BE AN
OPEN AND FLEXIBLE PROCESS.
THE NIAGARA
ESCARPMENT REVIEW,
FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN OUR
GOVERNMENT DID ITS REVIEW,
AND WE STRENGTHENED THE
PLAN THE SECOND TIME AROUND.

Steve says YOU WANTED TO
FINISH YOUR THOUGHT,
AND THEN RICK.

Chris says WHAT I'M
SAYING IS THE RIGHT THING
WAS DONE HERE.
AND THE FACT THAT WE COULD
SAY NO TO GROWTH OVER HERE
AND CREATE THE LARGEST
URBAN CONSERVATION AREA
ALONG WITH THE LINKAGE
AND 100 PERCENT OF
THE NATURAL FEATURES,
THE WATER PROTECTION
IN THIS ACT, IF
IT'S PASSED BY
THE LEGISLATURE,
WILL REALLY MAKE
A DIFFERENCE FOR
FUTURE GENERATIONS.
SO, I THINK THAT BY
DOING IT THIS WAY,
WE'VE GOTTEN A
BETTER PRODUCT.
AND I'VE BEEN FORTUNATE
TO WORK WITH THE PEOPLE
THAT PUT THIS TOGETHER.

Steve says OKAY, RICHARD.

Richard says IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT
TO SAY NICE THINGS
ABOUT TORIES, BUT I THINK
THE MINSTER'S LAST POINT
IS THE RIGHT ONE.
I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST
SIGNIFICANT THING ABOUT
THE MORAINE IS THE
WATER QUALITY ISSUE.
IF I COULD TRY A RESPONSE
TO YOUR QUESTION,
I MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE A
RESPONSE TO THE MINISTER
BECAUSE OF HIS
STATUS AS A MINISTER,
AND A POTENTIAL CANDIDATE
FOR THE LEADERSHIP
MIGHT NOT BE
ABLE TO SAY.
I SUSPECT THAT THE ANSWER
TO YOUR QUESTION AS TO WHY
IS THIS DIFFERENT THAN
THE NORMAL TORY SORT OF
WEDGE ISSUE, POLITICS
WHICH WE'VE TALKED ABOUT
ON THIS PROGRAM MANY, MANY
TIMES, IS BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD
A VERY SIGNIFICANT
POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT
IN THIS PROVINCE FOR
THE FIRST TIME,
IN MY VIEW,
SINCE 1995.
THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT
IN THIS PROVINCE HAS
BECOME UNPOPULAR.
IT IS LOSING BY-ELECTIONS
IN ITS CORE AREA
OF SUPPORT, LIKE 905.
IN FACT, SOMEONE MENTIONED
THE BY-ELECTION IN...

Ruth says AURORA-VAUGHAN-KING.

Richard says VAUGHAN-KING-AURORA,
WHERE GREG SORBARA,
THE LIBERAL
CANDIDATE, WON.
AND THE OAK RIDGES
MORAINE WAS A BIG ISSUE.

Chris says
MUSKOKA-PARRY SOUND.

Richard says MUSKOKA-PARRY
SOUND - THAT'S A DIFFERENT
ONE, THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT THE MORAINE
WASN'T A HUGE ISSUE THERE.

Steve says THAT'S
NOT 905 EITHER.

Richard says THAT'S NOT
A 905 BELT ISSUE.
SO, I THINK WHAT'S
HAPPENED IS THIS IS MAYBE
THE FIRST OR THE SECOND
SERIOUS POLICY DEPARTURE
FOR THE GOVERNMENT,
BECAUSE THE POLITICS
OF THIS PROVINCE
ARE CHANGING.
AND THEY ARE LISTENING TO
THEIR CORE CONSTITUENCY,
WHICH IS 905, WHICH
IS SAYING ENOUGH.

Steve says NO, YOU CAN'T, SORRY,
BECAUSE WE'RE DOWN TO
OUR LAST MINUTE AND I'VE
GOT TO SPEND IT WITH HIM.
AND YOU KNOW WHAT I'VE
GOT TO ASK YOU, OKAY?
YOU'RE SERIOUSLY
CONSIDERING RUNNING FOR
THE LEADERSHIP
OF THE PARTY,
RIGHT?

Chris says I'VE BEEN
ENCOURAGED BY A NUMBER
OF PEOPLE
THAT HAVE...

Steve says OKAY, HOW FAR AWAY
ARE YOU FROM YOUR DECISION?
IT'LL BE SOME TIME.

Steve says WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?

Chris says IT MEANS
THAT I'M ENCOURAGED
BY THE SUPPORT.
I'VE BEEN A SENIOR
MINISTER IN THIS
GOVERNMENT FOR
THE LAST SIX YEARS.
I HAVE IDEAS THAT I'D
LIKE TO TEST TO SEE IF
WE CAN MOVE FORWARD.

Steve says I'M GOING TO SEND
YOU AWAY IN A SECOND AND
THE REST OF THE FOUR OF
US ARE GOING TO GOSSIP
ABOUT YOU BEHIND
YOUR BACK.
BUT BEFORE WE
DO THAT...

Chris says THAT
DOESN'T SOUND FAIR.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS
WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
IS WHAT IF ERNIE EVES, THE
FORMER FINANCE MINISTER,
GETS IN?
CAN YOU RUN AND HE RUN IN
THE SAME LEADERSHIP RACE?

Chris says ERNIE'S A GOOD
FRIEND OF MINE.
I THINK IT'S THE STRENGTH
OF THE PARTY WE HAVE
SO MANY PEOPLE THAT
ARE WILLING TO LEAD
AND ARE ABLE
TO LEAD.
AND I'VE GOT A LOT OF
THINGS TO CONSIDER.

Steve says DID WE GET AN
ANSWER TO ANYTHING THERE?

Ruth says NO.
NO.
MAYBE I CAN ASK MY QUESTION
ABOUT SMART GROWTH?

Steve says NO, WE DON'T HAVE
TIME FOR SMART GROWTH.
NO, NO, NO, NO.

Chris says THAT'S WHAT
LED TO THESE DECISIONS.

Steve says YOU HAVE A BIT OF
REPUTATION AS A NEOCON
OUT THERE.
AND YET THIS, WHAT YOU
JUST PUT TOGETHER...

Mac says WHERE'S
OUT THERE?
HOW FAR OUT
THERE...

Chris says
WAY OUT THERE.
[laughing]

Steve says NEOCON FROM
RURAL ONTARIO.
YOU HAVE THE
REPUTATION; YOU KNOW,
A GUY WHO LIKES GUNS
AND ALL THAT STUFF.
BUT YOU'VE PUT TOGETHER A
BIT OF A BROKERAGE KIND OF
SITUATION HERE
THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT.
Chris says SIX YEARS THE PREMIER
SUPPORTED ME AND
INITIATIVES LIKE THE
GAME AND FISH ACT,
THE MUNICIPAL ACT,
THE LANDS FOR LIFE -
THESE WERE ALL ISSUES
THAT HAD TO BE CONSENSUS,
NEEDED TO BE ARRIVED TO
GET THE RIGHT DECISION.
AND I'VE SPENT SIX YEARS
IN THE GOVERNMENT MAKING
SURE THAT...

Steve says SO, I JUST
WANT TO CLARIFY.
I KNOW, YOU
SAID THIS ALREADY.
ARE YOU A SORT
OF MODERATE,
MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD,
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE?
OR ARE YOU ONE OF THESE
SORT OF MORE RURAL,
NEOCONSERVATIVE TYPES
THAT, I THINK, SOME OF
YOUR OPPONENTS HAVE
PAINTED YOU AS?

Chris says NONE OF MY FRIENDS
WOULD PAINT ME THAT WAY.

Steve says YOUR FRIENDS ARE
NOT CALLING YOU THAT?

Chris says NO.

Steve says SO, YOU THINK YOU'RE
MORE THE FORMER THAN
THE LATTER?

Chris says THAT'S RIGHT.

Steve says YOU DON'T WANT
TO BE A NEOCONSERVATIVE?

Chris says I DON'T HAVE TO
CHANGE TO BE WHO I AM.
WE'VE JUST ADDED A LITTLE
BIT OF HALIBURTON TO
THE OAK RIDGES
MORAINE.
THERE'S NO CONFLICT
BETWEEN THE ENVIRONMENT
AND THE ECONOMY
WHERE I COME FROM,
AND THAT'S THE WAY IT
SHOULD BE RIGHT ACROSS
THE WHOLE PROVINCE.
SO, I HAVEN'T CHANGED,
AND NEITHER HAS OUR PARTY.
YOU CAN SPIN ALL YOU
WANT ABOUT LABELS,
BUT I WILL CONSIDER
IT SERIOUSLY.
AND NOW THAT THE
PREMIER HAS SAID THAT
HE'S STEPPING DOWN,
THERE'LL BE AN OPPORTUNITY
TO REVIEW OUR OPTIONS.
AND I'VE BEEN ENCOURAGED
BY THE SUPPORT
I'VE RECEIVED.
PEOPLE ENCOURAGED
ME TO RUN.

Steve says I'M GOING TO SPIN
ONTO THE NEXT ITEM HERE.
BUT NOT BEFORE THANKING
YOU FOR COMING IN TO TVO
AND PUTTING UP WITH OUR
LITTLE DOG AND PONY SHOW.

Chris says I APPRECIATE THAT;
THANKS, GUYS.

Steve says CHRIS HODGSON, MINISTER
FOR MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS.
COMING UP, WELL, HERE
COMES OUR GOSSIP SESSION.
WILL HE OR
WON'T HE?

Chris says
GOSSIP SESSION.

Steve says NOT JUST CHRIS HODGSON,
BUT FINANCE MINISTER
ERNIE EVES - HE'S PONDERING
A VERY TOUGH DECISION.
WATCH.

A clip rolls.

A caption reads “Bob Runciman. Minister of Economic Development and Trade.”

Bob is in his early sixties, clean-shaven and with short straight red hair. He wears a beige suit, gray shirt and polka dotted tie.

He says PICKING
A LEADER IS ONE THING.
BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE
THE OPPORTUNITY TO GOVERN,
IT'S REALLY NOT
TOO MEANINGFUL.
IF HE IS THE PREMIER AND
THE LEADER OF OUR PARTY,
I THINK OUR CHANCES
OF FORMING ANOTHER
MAJORITY GOVERNMENT
GO UP ASTRONOMICALLY.
I THINK HE IS BY
FAR, IN A WAY,
THE CANDIDATE WHO CAN
GIVE US GREATEST COMFORT.

The caption changes to “David Young. Attorney General.”

David is in his forties, clean-shaven and with short brown hair. He wears a black suit, white shirt and burgundy tie.

He says HE IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO
HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED
IN THE PAST
AS A LEADER.
THERE ARE OTHER
CANDIDATES WHO,
I THINK, ARE ALSO LEADERS
OF THIS GREAT PROVINCE.
BUT MISTER EVES CERTAINLY
WOULD BE CORRECTLY VIEWED
AS SOMEONE WITH A LOT OF
LEADERSHIP EXPERIENCE.

A reporter says WOULD HE
BE YOUR TOP CHOICE?

David says I'M NOT GOING
TO SAY THAT YET,
BUT I WOULD SERIOUSLY
CONSIDER MISTER EVES'S CANDIDACY.

Steve says THE BUZZ AROUND TOWN
IS THAT ERNIE EVES IS
VERY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING
A RETURN TO POLITICS TO
RUN FOR THE PC
LEADERSHIP.
EVES, AS YOU KNOW, LEFT
POLITICS FOR A LUCRATIVE
JOB IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR
LESS THAN A YEAR AGO,
BUT HIS SUPPORTERS HAVE
BEEN TELLING HIM FOR THE
PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS THAT
HE IS THE SOLE CONTENDER
WHO CAN NOT ONLY WIN THE
LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY,
BUT ALSO WIN THE
NEXT ELECTION.
AND I THINK THIS
STARTED WITH A POLL,
MAC, THAT JOHN LASCHINGER
TOOK A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO
WHICH SHOWED HIM AHEAD OF
ALL THE OTHER PRETENDERS
IN THE RACE.
AND AHEAD OF
DALTON McGUINTY,
IF AN ELECTION
WERE HELD TODAY.

Mac says BY TEN
POINTS OR SOMETHING?

Steve says YEAH, WHICH
WAS SIGNIFICANT.
WILL HE OR
WON'T HE?

Mac says HE'D TAKE A
HELL OF A PAY CUT,
I SUPPOSE, IF
HE DID IT.
I DON'T KNOW.
AS THERE IS CERTAINLY A
STRONG GROUP WITHIN
THE PARTY, BIG GROUP
WITHIN THE PARTY, WHO
ARE PUTTING A LOT OF
PRESSURE ON MISTER EVES...

Steve says DO YOU BELIEVE IN
THAT PREMISE, THOUGH?
DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE
PREMISE THAT HE IS TRULY
THE ONE GUY OUT THERE
WHO CAN NOT ONLY WIN
THE LEADERSHIP, BUT
THE NEXT ELECTION?

Mac says NO, I DON'T.

Steve says SO, IT'S A
BROADER FIELD THAN THAT,
OBVIOUSLY, THAN
THAT, YOU BELIEVE.
RUTH, HOW 'BOUT IT?

Ruth says I'D BE SURPRISED
IF HE RAN,
BECAUSE
PRESUMABLY WHEN HE
MADE THE DECISION
TO LEAVE POLITICS, HE
TOOK INTO CONSIDERATION
THE POSSIBILITY THAT
MISTER HARRIS MIGHT NOT
SEE OUT HIS TERM.
WHAT'S INTERESTING -

Steve says I DON'T
THINK HE DID.
NO, MY INFORMATION IS THAT
HE DID NOT KNOW THAT
MIKE HARRIS WAS
GOING TO LEAVE.
AND AS A RESULT, FELT
FREE TO GO HIMSELF.

Ruth says I CAN'T BELIEVE HE
DIDN'T THINK IT WAS
A POSSIBILITY.
WHAT I FIND
INTERESTING IS,
I THINK I'M RIGHT HE'S
THE FIRST CANDIDATE
TO HAVE MEMBERS OF
CAUCUS COME OUT AND SAY
THAT THEY WOULD
SUPPORT HIM.
AND THAT MUST BE A STRONG
PERSUADER FOR HIM.

Mac says ONE OTHER
DECLARED, THAT'S ALL.

Steve says EXCUSE ME?

Mac says ONLY ONE OTHER MEMBER OF
CABINET IN THE CAUCUS
HAS DECLARED...

Steve says JOHN BAIRD HAS PUBLICLY
SAID HE'S FOR FLAHERTY.
BUT PRESUMABLY, IF
ERNIE EVES GETS IN,
PEOPLE LIKE JANET
ECKER AND JIM FLAHERTY
AND MAYBE ELIZABETH
WITMER AND MAYBE THE GUY
SITTING RIGHT HERE,
CHRIS HODGSON.
THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH
ROOM LEFT FOR ALL OF THEM.
ERNIE SUCKS UP A LOT OF THAT
IN HIS VACUUM OF SUPPORT.

Richard says I GUESS HE'S AN
INTERESTING CANDIDATE.
ON THE ONE HAND, HE'S THAT
DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS.
HE IS A FACE THAT MANY
OF US ASSOCIATE WITH
THE NEOCONSERVATIVE
AGENDA.
HE WAS THE GUY IN
FINANCE WHO PUT IT ALL IN.
ON THE OTHER HAND, HIS
HISTORY GOES BACK TO
THE PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
DAYS OF THE WILLIAM
GRENVILLE DAVIS
DAYS OF THE PARTY.
SO, HE PROBABLY TAKES OUT,
RIPS OUT SOME OF THE CORE
OF ECKER, WITMER, HODGSON,
AND MAYBE EVEN STOCKWELL,
I SUPPOSE.
SO, HE'D BE AN
INTERESTING CANDIDATE.
I WANT TO SAY,
I HOPE HE'S IN.
I CAN'T THINK OF ONE THAT
WOULD REPRESENT THE SORT
OF HARRIS ERA MORE
THAN ERNIE EVES.
HE WAS ALMOST CO-PREMIER
THERE FOR A WHILE.

Steve says AND THEREFORE EASER
FOR YOU TO RUN AGAINST,
YOU BELIEVE.

Richard says HE'S PROBABLY
THE BEST KNOWN,
BUT ALSO A GOOD TARGET.

Ruth says IF ONE OF THE THINGS
THEY WANT TO DO IS
A NEW GENERATION AND A
NEW FACE, IT'S REALLY
A TURNING BACK TO ATTEMPTING
TO TURN BACK TO BILL DAVIS.
BUT VERY MUCH LINKING
HIM WITH HARRIS.

Mac says I THINK ONE OF THE
IRONIES WOULD BE,
IF MISTER EVES
DECIDES TO RUN,
I REMEMBER WHEN MISTER HARRIS
ANNOUNCED HIS RESIGNATION
THAT ONE OF THE REASONS
GIVEN WAS THAT MISTER EVES
HAD CONVINCED MISTER HARRIS
THAT THERE WAS A LIFE
AFTER POLITICS.
[laughing]

Steve says MAYBE THERE ISN'T.

Mac says MAYBE THERE ISN'T!

Richard says OTHER CANDIDATES HAVE
BEEN IN THE RACE FOR
A LONG TIME.
TONY CLEMENT'S BEEN
WORKING AT THIS FOR YEARS.
HAS A LOT OF
GRASSROOTS SUPPORT.
PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND
THIS AT HOME BUT IT'S
AN ORGANIZATIONAL
GAME.
IT'S WHO CAN SIGN UP THE
MOST MEMBERS AND SO FORTH.
YOU CAN'T JUST SORT OF ALL
OF A SUDDEN DECIDE ONE DAY
YOU'RE GOING TO RUN FOR
LEADER AND COMPETE WITH
SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN LINING
UP PEOPLE RIDING BY RIDING
FOR YEARS.

Steve says THAT IS A KEY POINT.
THE REALITY IS THAT
ALL OF THE OTHER PEOPLE,
THE REGULAR NAMES
THAT WE HEAR OUT THERE,
HAVE BEEN RUNNING FOR
THIS JOB FOR TWO YEARS
AT LEAST, IF NOT MORE,
AND ORGANIZING.
ERNIE EVES
HASN'T BEEN.
HE'S BEEN OFF
MAKING A LIVING IN
THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
WE KNOW HE CAN GET
MONEY IF HE WANTS TO.
SURE, HE HAS LOTS OF
FRIENDS ON BAY STREET
WHERE HE'S
WORKING NOW.
BUT HOW MUCH WILL HIS LATE
ENTRY INTO THE GAME HURT HIM?

Mac says I THINK THAT IT WOULD
DEPEND ON HOW MANY
CAUCUS PEOPLE HE
BRINGS OVER.
THE CAUCUS MEMBERS COULD
BRING IN ORGANIZATIONS
TO ERNIE READY-MADE.
AND THAT WOULD GIVE HIM A
CERTAIN ADVANTAGE THERE.

Steve says TAKE A GUESS
ON THAT: HOW MUCH OF
THE CABINET AND HOW MUCH OF
THE CAUCUS DO YOU THINK
HE COULD GET
IF HE CAME IN?

Mac says IF HE CAME IN
RIGHT NOW?
I'D SAY HE COULD GET
PROBABLY 30 TO 33 PERCENT
OF THE CABINET AND
PROBABLY THE SAME
IN THE KAWARTHAS.
MORE?

Steve says I BET HE GETS
MORE OF THE CABINET.

Richard says WASN'T ONE
OF THE KNOCKS ON HIM,
STEVE, WAS THAT HE DIDN'T
GO TO CAUCUS RETREATS?
LIKE WHY WOULD THE CAUCUS
PEOPLE SUPPORT HIM IF
HE DIDN'T SHOW UP
HALF THE TIME?
I DON'T
UNDERSTAND THAT.

Steve says I SUSPECT WE'RE GOING
TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT
FROM SOME OF HIS
OPPONENTS IN THE DAYS
TO COME.

Richard says LET'S LEAVE
IT TO THEM, THEN.

Steve says THEY HAVE BEEN BURNING
UP THE PHONE LINES.
AND FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH,
I THINK HE'S GETTIN' IN.
BUT WE SHALL SEE.
MAC, RUTH, RICK,
UNTIL NEXT TIME.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
UNTIL NEXT
WEEKEND, SO LONG,
EVERYONE.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Peter Harris.

Editor, Dean Henry.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2001, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Oak Ridges Moraine