Transcript: Fourth Reading - Running the Economy AND the Cabinet | Feb 25, 2001

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON 4th
READING, THE ENGINE SPUTTERS.
JOB CUTS SPREAD TO THE
CIVIL SERVICE AS THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT FACES A
FALTERING ECONOMY.

A clip shows Mikes Harris talking to journalists and a robotic arm working on a metal piece.

Steve, Ruth, Richard and Mac sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark gray jacket over a light shirt.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY, I'M STEVE
PAIKIN, AND WELCOME TO THIS
WEEK'S EDITION
OF
4th READING.
TECHNOLOGY STOCKS ARE
FALLING THROUGH THE FLOOR.
AUTOMAKERS AND THEIR SPINOFF
INDUSTRIES CONTINUE TO
ANNOUNCE LAY-OFFS DAILY.
EXPORTS ARE OFF.
AND THIS WEEK, WHILE THEY
CONTINUED TO TRY TO PUT A
POSITIVE FACE ON OUR
ECONOMIC PROSPECTS, THE
FIRST CLEAR SIGNAL THE
ONTARIO CONSERVATIVES ARE
WORRIED ABOUT A
WORSENING ECONOMY.
PREMIER HARRIS HAS TOLD HIS
CABINET TO "HOLD THE LINE."
ON SPENDING.
WHILE THE PREMIER DIDN'T
SAY WHETHER HE WANTS A FLAT
LINE BUDGET OR JUST PRUDENT
SPENDING, THIS MUCH IS
CLEAR, THE CONSERVATIVE
SOLUTION TO THE ECONOMIC
SLOWDOWN SEEMS TO BE THE
SAME FORMULA THEY'VE USED
IN BOOM TIMES, CUTTING BOTH
TAXES AND CIVIL SERVICE JOBS.

A clip plays.

Mike Harris talks to the press. He’s in his fifties, clean-shaven with gray hair.

Mike says WE EXPECT AGAIN THIS YEAR,
WHEN THE YEAR IS OVER,
WE WILL HAVE CONTINUE TO
REDUCE THE SIZE OF THE
GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY, AND
CONTINUE TO LOOK FOR WAYS
TO DO MORE FOR LESS
AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Jim Flaherty. Ontario Finance Minister." Jim is in his late forties, clean-shaven with dark brown hair.

Speaking to journalists, Jim says WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT
THE SLOWER GROWTH IN THE
AUTOMOTIVE SECTOR, BUT
THE GROWTH IS STILL QUITE
REMARKABLE, AND THE SALES ARE
STILL QUITE REMARKABLE WHEN
ONE COMPARES WITH THE LESSER
YEARS BEFORE THE BOOM YEARS.
SO WE HAVE TO BE REALISTIC
IN OUR ASSESSMENT OF THE
GROWTH IN THE ECONOMY, AND
CERTAIN SECTORS ARE WEAKER
THAN OTHER SECTORS,
THAT'S TRUE.

The clip ends.

Steve says HERE TO CHEW OVER WHAT'S
BEHIND THE PREMIER'S PLANS
FOR DEALING WITH A
FALTERING ECONOMIC
SCENARIO, OUR QUEEN'S PARK
ANALYSTS, MAC PENNEY FROM
GPC, GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS.

Mac Penney is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with white hair. He’s wearing a dark gray suit, purple shirt and patterned blue and black tie.

Steve continues FROM THE LAW FIRM FRASER
MILNER CASGRAIN, THERE'S
RICHARD MAHONEY.

Richard Mahoney is in his forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a black sweater.

Steve continues AND FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER,
RUTH GRIER.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She’s wearing a white blouse under a burgundy jacket.

Steve continues MAC, TO YOU FIRST.
THE PREMIER, I THINK IT'S
PRETTY UNUSUAL TO PUT OUT A
PRESS RELEASE SAYING
MINISTERS, HOLD THE LINE
ON SPENDING.
WHY DID HE FEEL THE NEED
TO PUT THAT OUT IN A
PRESS RELEASE?

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says WELL, I THINK THERE'S
A CERTAIN DEGREE OF
UNCERTAINTY ABOUT
THE ECONOMY.
IT'S ACROSS THE BOARD.
I THINK Mr. MARTIN'S BEING
ENCOURAGED TO DO SOMETHING
OF THE SAME
THING IN OTTAWA.
WE'VE SEEN THE GOVERNOR OF
THE BANK OF CANADA THIS
WEEK COME OUT IN HIS FIRST
INAUGURAL ADDRESS AND
ADDRESS THE
ECONOMIC SITUATION.
BOTH BRITAIN AND FRANCE
HAVE ISSUED REVISED
ECONOMIC FORECASTS.
NATIONALLY, THE GOVERNOR OF
THE FEDERAL RESERVE, ALAN
GREENSPAN MADE HIS SECOND
MAJOR ECONOMIC STATEMENT
SINCE JANUARY.
I THINK IT'S JUST PART OF A
PATTERN WHERE GOVERNMENTS
IN MOST WESTERN
DEMOCRACIES, AT LEAST, ARE
LINING UP TO ADDRESS A CHANGE
IN THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE.

Richard says HE COULDN'T WALK DOWN THE
HALL AND SAID TO THEM HOLD
THE LINE ON SPENDING.
HE HAD TO PUT OUT A PRESS
RELEASE, AS STEVE ASKED?

Ruth says IT WAS MORE FOR
THE BENEFIT OF US.

Mac says I THINK THAT'S ONE THING
IS, I'M NOT SURE THERE IS
ANYTHING NEW IN WHAT
THE PREMIER SAID.
WITH ME, WHAT THE PREMIER
SAID RANKS UP THERE WITH
NEWS LIKE, ELVIS IS DEAD,
APPARENTLY, WORLD WAR II IS
OVER, WE WON.

Steve says IT WILL COME AS NEWS
TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Ruth says HAS THERE EVER BEEN A
PREMIER WHO HAS SAID TO HIS
CABINET MINISTERS, NO HOLDS
BARRED, JUST COME IN, JUST
HAVE A BRAINSTORMING SESSION
AND COME IN AND GIVE ME
YOUR BEST GUESS?

Mac says FLING YOUR MONEY AROUND
WILDLY AND WE'LL
SUPPORT EVERYTHING.

Ruth says GOOD TIMES AND BAD,
THIS IS USUALLY THE FIRST
INJUNCTION TO MINISTERS.

Steve says YEAH, BUT MIKE HARRIS IS
ALSO THE GUY WHO SAID
ONTARIO IS RECESSION PROOF.
SO IT IS UNUSUAL...

Mac says STEVE, THERE'S
NO RECESSION.
A RECESSION IS TWO
CONSECUTIVE QUARTERS
OF NEGATIVE GROWTH.

Steve says RIGHT.

Mac says WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
CONTINUED GROWTH.
IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE MUCH
BECAUSE WE GREW AT 6 PERCENT
LAST YEAR, 5 PERCENT
THE YEAR BEFORE.
BUT 2.8 PERCENT GROWTH
IS 2.8 PERCENT GROWTH.
THE AMERICANS WILL NOT
CONTINUE TO BUY 17 MILLION
NEW CARS A YEAR
INDEFINITELY.
THAT'S SIMPLY A
MATTER OF FACT.
BUT 2.8 PERCENT IS GROWTH.
IT'S NOT NEGATIVE, NEGATIVE
GROWTH, RIDICULOUS TERM,
BUT THERE'S NO SHRINKAGE IN
THE ECONOMY FORECAST THAT
I'M AWARE OF FROM ANYONE.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says BUT THERE'S NOT MUCH
FLEXIBILITY OR ROOM LEFT
IN MIKE HARRIS' PLANS.
IF HE CARRIES THROUGH WITH
THE TAX CUTS, AND THIS YEAR
WE'RE GOING TO BE SEEING
THE FULL YEAR IMPACT OF
LAST YEAR'S TAX CUTS,
AS THE ECONOMY GROWTH
CONTINUES TO DECLINE, AND I
WOULD AGREE WITH MAC IT'S
NOTHING LIKE AS BAD AS
IT WAS WHEN WE WERE THE
GOVERNMENT IN THE EARLY
'90s, HE DOESN'T HAVE
MUCH ROOM TO MOVE.
AND I THINK CARRYING THROUGH
WITH THE TAX CUTS IN THAT
SITUATION IS GOING TO BE
VERY DAMAGING TO SERVICES.

Steve says NOT MUCH ROOM TO MOVE
BECAUSE IF YOU CUT TAXES
YOU ANTICIPATE REVENUES
TO BE LOWER RATHER THAN
HIGHER, WHICH IS THE WAY
IT'S BEEN IN THE PAST?

Ruth says YES, AND BECAUSE YOU HAVE
NOT, IN THE GOOD YEARS,
BEEN INVESTING IN THE
INFRASTRUCTURE, SUCH AS
TRANSPORTATION, HEALTH,
EDUCATION, AND WE'RE REALLY
BEGINNING TO SEE
HUGE DEFICITS THERE.

Steve says I KNOW THE LIBERAL
FINANCE CRITIC, GERRY
PHILLIPS HAS BEEN SAYING,
EVER SINCE IN THE TORIES
GOT INTO POWER...

Mac says AND BEFORE.

Mac laughs.

Steve says AND BEFORE.
THERE'S NO RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN TAX CUTS AND A
GREAT ECONOMY.
JUST BECAUSE YOU CUT TAXES
DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO
GET MORE REVENUE, JUST
BECAUSE YOU RAISE TAXES
DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE
GOING TO GET MORE REVENUE.
AS YOU FOLKS FOUND OUT
WHEN YOU WERE IN POWER.

Ruth says YES.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor.

Steve continues THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE
THE RUBBER HITTING THE ROAD
ON THAT, ISN'T IT?
WE'RE GOING TO FIND THAT OUT
IN THE NEXT LITTLE WHILE.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor.

Richard says I THINK SO.
THE CONSERVATIVES HAVE, FOR
SOME YEARS, CLAIMING CREDIT
FOR OUR RECENT FABULOUS
ECONOMIC GROWTH IN ONTARIO,
AS A RESULT OF THEIR
PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX CUTS.

Steve says NOT TOTALLY,
BUT PARTIALLY.

Richard continues PARTIALLY.
AND A NUMBER OF ECONOMISTS
ACROSS THE GLOBE WILL TELL
YOU THERE IS NOT... THE
REASON TO DO TAX CUTS ISN'T
NECESSARILY TO SPUR
ECONOMIC GROWTH, RATHER
BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A
SURPLUS AND YOU ARE
RETURNING SOME OF THE MONEY
TO THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY
HAD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
SO THERE ISN'T NECESSARILY
MUCH OF A STIMULUS EFFECT
BECAUSE IT GETS SPREAD OVER
THE ECONOMY WIDELY, IT GETS
INTO PUT SAVINGS ACCOUNTS,
A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS.
GERRY PHILLIPS IS RIGHT.
BUT YOU'RE RIGHT,
NOW IS THE TEST.
THE QUESTION YOU ASKED RUTH IS
WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHERE HE
HAS LESS ROOM TO MANOEUVRE?
THERE'S THE DOUBLE
WHAMMY EFFECT.
IF GROWTH SHRINKS, YOU'RE
GOING TO HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY
LESS TAX REVENUE AT THE END
OF THE YEAR JUST BECAUSE YOU
HAVE LESS ECONOMIC ACTIVITY,
LESS PROFIT, LESS TO TAX.

Steve says PARTICULARLY IF
THE RATES ARE LOWER.

Richard continues SECONDLY, THE RATES ARE
LOWERED, WHICH OF COURSE
BEGETS LESS TAX REVENUES IN
AND OF ITSELF, THOUGH IF
YOU BELIEVE JIM FLAHERTY
AND THE NEO CONS, THE MORE
YOU REDUCE TAXES, THE MORE
YOU GET, WHICH I SAID LAST
WEEK, WE SHOULD JUST GET
RID OF TAX ALTOGETHER
BECAUSE WE'LL GET MORE
MONEY IF WE HAVE NO TAX.

Mac laughs.

Steve says SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE IN
THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS,
SOMEBODY IN THE CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO HAVE
TO ADMIT THERE'S NO
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LOWER
TAXES AND HIGHER REVENUES,
AND HIGHER TAXES AND
LOWER REVENUES.

Mac says DON'T BET ON IT.

Ruth says YOU ARE DREAMING.
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER
ADMITTED TO BEING WRONG.
AND IT HAS REALLY BEEN A VERY
IMPROVIDENT FISCAL MANAGER.
AND IN GOOD TIMES YOU
CAN GET AWAY WITH THAT.
BUT IF YOU LOOK AT
EXPENDITURES, THEY HAVE
IN FACT RISEN ENORMOUSLY.

Richard says HIGHEST
SPENDING EVER.

Mac says CERTAINLY ON HEALTHCARE
AND EDUCATION.
HIGHEST SPENDING
EVER, PERIOD.

Richard says AND HIGHEST DEBT EVER.

Mac says THAT'S TRUE.

Richard says HIGHEST DEBT EVER,
HIGHEST GROWTH ON THE DEBT,
AND HIGHEST SPENDING.

Ruth says AND A LOT OF
HIDDEN SPENDING ON THINGS
LIKE RESTRUCTURES OF HYDRO.

Steve says HIGHEST
GROWTH ON THE DEBT?
NO, NOT THESE GUYS.

Mac says NOT US.

Richard says HIGHEST DEBT EVER.

Steve says HIGHEST DEBT EVER, YES.
NOT HIGHEST GROWTH
IN THE DEBT.

Ruth says WITH MANY PREDICTIONS
ON NO MATTER WHICH KIND OF
SCENARIO YOU PROJECT OF AN
INCREASING DEFICIT OVER THE
NEXT TWO OR THREE YEARS...

Mac says RUTH, FIRST OF ALL, TO THE
GOVERNMENT'S DEFENCE OF
ITS RECORD, I THINK
THERE IS... REVENUES ARE
14 BILLION DOLLARS HIGHER NOW, AND
PART OF THAT MAY BE ATTRIBUTABLE
TO TAX CUTS,
MAYBE NOT.
THAN, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT
CAME TO OFFICE, EVEN THOUGH
INCOME TAXES ARE
32 PERCENT LOWER.
PERHAPS THE LOWEST
IN CANADA CURRENTLY.
SO REVENUES ARE
VERY STRONG.
A LOT OF IT DRIVEN
BY GROWTH ADMITTEDLY.

Ruth says MOST OF IT
DRIVEN BY EXPORTS.

Mac says AT THE SAME TIME, THEY
DO HAVE A CONTINGENCY FUND,
LARGER THAN EVER BEFORE,
BUILT INTO THE BUDGET.
SO THAT'S THERE.
THEY ARE ALSO OPERATING
COMING OUT OF A VERY STRONG
SURPLUS POSITION.
SO THERE IS A FAIRLY
LARGE FISCAL CUSHION.
I THINK THE REAL TEST WON'T
NECESSARILY BE IN THIS YEAR
BECAUSE MOST OF THE
FORECASTS SHOW A WEAK FIRST
HALF WITH A RECOVERING
SECOND HALF.

Steve says SO THE TEST WILL
BE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.

Mac says THE TEST, IF IT COMES,
WILL BE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.
AND I THINK HOW THE
GOVERNMENT MANAGES THROUGH
THIS YEAR COULD DETERMINE
HOW THEY PERFORM...

Steve says TELL ME THIS THEN,
WHEN MIKE HARRIS SAYS I WANT MY MINISTERS TO
HOLD THE LINE ON SPENDING,
WHAT DOES HE REALLY
MEAN BY THAT?

Mac says STEVE, MY EXPERIENCE,
AND I HAVEN'T BEEN IN
GOVERNMENT NOW FOR TWO OR
THREE YEARS, BUT THAT WAS A
DIRECTION RECEIVED TO
MANAGEMENT BOARD EVERY YEAR.

Steve says BUT DOES THAT MEAN
ZERO PERCENT SPENDING
INCREASES FOR EVERY
MINISTRY ACROSS THE BOARD
FOR THE NEXT YEAR?

Ruth says THAT'S WHERE
THEY START, STEVE.

Mac says THAT'S WHAT
YOU START WITH.
THEN THEY GO IN AND FIGHT
FOR EVERY NICKEL THEY CAN
POSSIBLY GET.

Ruth says THEY COME BACK, THAT'S WHERE
YOU START CONSTRUCTING
YOUR BUDGET.
AND THEN YOU IDENTIFY THE
PRESSURES ON YOUR BUDGET.
AND DEPENDING ON THE TASTE
OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE
DAY, IF YOU'RE ENVIRONMENT
MINISTER AND YOU'VE GOT A
WHOLE LOT OF PRESSURES, I
USED TO GET SOME MORE MONEY.
IN THIS CABINET YOU
DIDN'T UNTIL NOW.
THE TEST WILL BE WHETHER
THEY WILL THIS YEAR.
THEN YOU'VE GOT HEALTH AND
EDUCATION AND THE BIG SPENDERS.

Steve says BECAUSE THIS IS A GOVERNMENT
THAT PROMISED IN THE LAST
CAMPAIGN IN 1999 TO INCREASE
HEALTH SPENDING 20 PERCENT.

Ruth says CAN I SAY SOMETHING
ABOUT THAT, THOUGH?

[all talking at once]

Steve says I DON'T KNOW
HOW YOU DO THAT.
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU
INCREASE SPENDING
20 PERCENT IN HEALTH,
AND YET HOLD THE LINE
ON SPENDING ACROSS THE BOARD.

Mac says 20 PERCENT BY 2004.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT STEVEN, WHEN
WE KEEP HEARING, I REALLY
REGRET THE DEFINITION OF
HEALTHCARE HAS COME BACK TO
HOW MUCH ARE YOU SPENDING?

Richard says SO TRUE.

Ruth says BECAUSE WHEN I
WAS MINISTER...

Mac says THAT'S THE WAY YOU
GUYS USED TO MEASURE IT.

Ruth says NO, IT WAS NOT.
I ACHIEVED SLOWING THE
GROWTH IN EXPENDITURES ON
HEALTHCARE BECAUSE WE WERE
MAKING SOME FUNDAMENTAL
CHANGES IN THE WAY
HEALTHCARE WAS BEING
DELIVERED, PREVENTION,
HOMECARE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
WHAT WE'VE SEEN UNDER THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN MORE
MONEY THROWN AT
THE SAME SYSTEM.
AND THOSE FUNDAMENTAL
CHANGES HAVEN'T BEEN MADE.
SO IT'S GOING TO BE VERY,
VERY DANGEROUS TO THOSE OF
US WHO SUPPORT HEALTHCARE
AS THIS GOVERNMENT TRIES TO
CONTROL COSTS.

Richard says AND THE REASON FOR
THAT, STEVE, IS BECAUSE
PEOPLE IN ONTARIO,
OPPOSITION PARTIES, AND THE
PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT
HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION.
SO THE GOVERNMENT'S ANSWER,
RATHER THAN TO IMPROVE
HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION,
IS GET A BETTER AND BIGGER
NUMBER YOU CAN THROW AT IT.
He shows a document and says THIS GREAT FRIEND OF THE
GOVERNMENT, THE CANADIAN
TAXPAYERS' FEDERATION...

Steve says I'VE READ THAT,
NOT MUCH OF A FRIEND.

Richard says NO, HAS JUST RELEASED THEIR
PRE-BUDGET SUBMISSION FOR
THE UPCOMING
PROVINCIAL BUDGET.
OF THE MANY INTERESTING
THINGS THEY SAY IN THERE,
ONE OF THE THINGS THEY
SAY IS THEY POINT TO THIS
DISEASE THAT
RUTH TALKS ABOUT.
WHICH IS THE WAY TO SORT OF
ANSWER YOUR CRITICS THAT
YOU'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH IN
HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION IS
SIMPLY HAVE A NUMBER OF
ENVELOPES BY WHICH YOU CAN
ANNOUNCE 200 MILLION HERE,
400 MILLION THERE, 500
MILLION THERE, SO ALL OF
OUR COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCES
WILL BE SALVED, AND WE'LL
BE, OH, THINGS ARE GETTING
BETTER, RATHER THAN...

Mac says I THINK THIS IS
QUITE A CHANGE IN TACT
BECAUSE IF I REMEMBER A
FEW MONTHS BACK, IT WAS
THE FACT THE GOVERNMENT
WAS DOING TOO MUCH TO
RESTRUCTURE HEALTHCARE,
AND WERE RESTRUCTURING
IN THE WRONG WAY.

Ruth says OR TO INVEST
IN THE FUTURE.

Mac says THAN ANY OTHER
GOVERNMENT SINCE, I THINK,
THE INTRODUCTION
OF MEDICARE.

Ruth says OKAY, WE'VE GOT TO FINISH
ON THE NOTE THAT SO MUCH OF
WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THE
LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS
BEEN TRYING TO REPAIR THE
DEVASTATING ERRORS THEY MADE
IN THE FIRST TWO OR THREE
YEARS WHEN THEY DID CLOSURES
AND CHANGES THAT WERE
ENTIRELY UNJUSTIFIED.

Steve says EVERYBODY HOLD YOUR
THOUGHTS IN THERE.
WE'LL PICK IT
UP NEXT WEEK.
WE'VE GOT TO HAVE THESE GUYS
IN, THE TAXPAYERS' FEDERATION
BECAUSE THEY SAY THE
GOVERNMENT'S LOST THEIR WAY.

Ruth says AND THE AUDITOR, AND
THE ALTERNATIVE...

Richard says CLAWING BACK THE
FEDERAL INCOME TAX CUT.

Mac laughs.

Steve says WE'LL TALK MORE.
THANK YOU PANELISTS,
WE'LL TALK SOME MORE.
ONE MORE TOPIC THIS WEEK,
AND THAT IS MIKE HARRIS'
NEW CABINET MET
FOR THE FIRST TIME.
IT WAS AN EXCITING MOMENT
FOR SOME WHO WILL SIT AT
THE CABINET TABLE
FOR THE FIRST TIME.
BUT FOR OTHER CONSERVATIVE
MPPs, STILL WATCHING FROM
THE BACK BENCHES, IT WAS
A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW.
SOME EVEN SAY THEY'RE SO
MIFFED THEY'RE NOT GOING TO
RUN FOR THE PCs AGAIN.
WHAT MOTIVATES A PREMIER TO
MAKE THE CABINET CHOICES
HE MAKES, AND HOW DOES HE DEAL
WITH THE FALLOUT THAT ENSUES?
LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

A clip plays.

Mike walks into a meeting room.

Steve says THE DOORS OF THE CABINET
ROOM OPENED WIDE THIS WEEK
TO REVEAL THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT'S NEW LINE-UP.
AMONG THE FAMILIAR FACES,
ROOKIE MINISTERS TAKING
THEIR SEATS AT THE CABINET
TABLE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.
THE CHOICE OF DECIDING WHO'S
IN AND WHO'S OUT OF CABINET
RESTS SQUARELY ON THE
SHOULDERS OF THE PREMIER,
WITH INPUT FROM A
HANDFUL OF ADVISORS.
SOME SAY CHOOSING A CABINET
IS THE HARDEST DECISION A
PREMIER HAS TO MAKE.

The caption changes to "David Peterson. Former Lib. Ontario Premier." David is in his late fifties, clean-shaven with white hair.

David says THERE ISN'T A FIRST MINISTER
THAT I KNOW THAT WOULDN'T
TELL YOU THAT THEY
HAVE MADE SOME REALLY
DUMB DECISIONS ABOUT
CABINET MINISTERS.
AND THEY'VE GOTTEN IN
VERY SERIOUS TROUBLE.
THEN, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE
THE DECISION YOU HAVE TO
REMOVE THEM.
AND THAT'S VERY, VERY
HARD ON ONE AS WELL.
BECAUSE IT'S A VERY TOUGH
DECISION THAT AFFECTS THEIR
CAREER, AFFECTS THEIR
PUBLIC PERSONA, AFFECTS
THEIR SELF-ESTEEM.
BY AND LARGE,
THEY'RE ALL FRIENDS.

Steve says BUT HOW DOES A PREMIER
DECIDE WHO MAKES THE CUT?
AS AN ADVISOR, ROSS MCLELLAN
HELPED BOB RAE NAVIGATE
SEVERAL CABINET SHUFFLES
DURING HIS TENURE.

The caption changes to "Ross McLellan. Former Advisor to Bob Rae." Ross is in his fifties, with dark brown hair and a white moustache.

Ross says SO YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE REGIONAL
REPRESENTATION BALANCED.
YOU'VE GOT TO BALANCE
ADMINISTRATIVE COMPETENCE,
COMMUNICATION COMPETENCE,
POLITICAL SKILLS,
THESE ALL GO INTO THE MIX.
AND AT THE END OF THE DAY,
YOU TRY TO PRESENT THE
STRONGEST PUBLIC FACE ON
THE GOVERNMENT THAT YOU CAN.

A Female Minister says I SWEAR THAT TO
THE BEST OF MY ABILITY...

Steve says LACK OF EXPERIENCE
CLEARLY DIDN'T AFFECT
THE PREMIER'S CHOICES
THIS TIME AROUND.
THREE OF THE FOUR NEW
MINISTERS BROUGHT INTO CABINET
BY MIKE HARRIS WERE ELECTED
LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO.

David Young is in his forties, clean-shaven with receding hair.

Young says THIS IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE
THIS PROVINCE'S PROBLEMS
WITH ORGANIZED
CRIME AND OF ITSELF.

Steve says LEADING THE CHARGE
FROM THE BACK BENCHES INTO
THE CABINET ROOM IS DAVID
YOUNG, NOW ONTARIO'S
ATTORNEY GENERAL.

The caption changes to "David Young. Attorney General."

Talking to a journalist, Young says I'M EXCITED, TO BE
HONEST WITH YOU.
I'M LOOKING FORWARD
TO THE EXPERIENCE.
BEEN WAITING A LONG TIME TO
DO THIS, SO SHOULD BE GREAT.

The caption changes to "Brad Clark. Minister of Transportation." Brad is in his late thirties, with a beard and curly brown hair.

Brad says I SIMPLY GOT THE JOB DONE.
I WAS GIVEN A NUMBER OF
RESPONSIBILITIES WITHIN THE
MINISTRY OF HEALTH, AND I
WORKED VERY HARD ON IT
AND GOT THE JOB DONE.
AND I THINK THE PREMIER
RESPECTS ME FOR IT.

Steve says WHILE PERFORMANCE
DOES FACTOR INTO A
PREMIER'S DECISION, IT CAN
ALSO BE SWAYED BY LOYALTY.

Young says MAYBE I DIDN'T DO TOO
MANY THINGS WRONG.
I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW.
AS I SAY, I'M VERY
HONOURED TO BE HERE.
I HOPE THE TRUST THAT HAS
BEEN PLACED IN ME IS TRUST
THAT NO ONE WILL REGRET
HAVING PLACED IN ME.

Steve says BUT IF LOYALTY AND
HARD WORK DON'T DO THE
TRICK, THERE IS ALWAYS GOOD
OLD-FASHIONED ARM TWISTING.

David says AND MINISTERS WOULD SEND
THEIR FRIENDS, WHEN WE FORM
THE CABINET IN THE FIRST
PLACE, THEY'D SEND THEIR
FRIENDS IN TO SAY I WANT YOU
TO DO THIS FOR SUCH AND SUCH,
OR IN MY OPINION THIS WOULD
BE A GOOD SPOT FOR THIS PERSON.
OH YEAH, YOU GET
LOBBIED ALL THE TIME.
YOU GET BEATEN UP AND
PUSHED AROUND ALL THE TIME.

Steve says STILL, THERE'S ALWAYS
SOME WHO ARE LEFT OUT.

Ross says HE'S GOT A
BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN HIS CAUCUS
WHO HAVE BEEN ELECTED, SOME OF
THEM THREE, FOUR, FIVE TIMES,
WHO KEEP GETTING PASSED OVER.
AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A
SOURCE OF INCREASING HORROR
FOR HIM.

The clip ends.

Back at the studio, Steve says SO HOW EXACTLY DOES AN
MPP GET INTO CABINET?
WHAT KEEPS HIM OR HER OUT?
HERE TO TALK ABOUT THAT,
THREE PC MEMBERS OF THE
LEGISLATURE WHO KNOW
ABOUT IT MORE THAN MOST.

Chris Stockwell is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with receding hair. He wears a gray suit, white shirt and dotted blue tie.

Steve continues CHRIS STOCKWELL, LONG TIME
A THORN IN THE SIDE OF THE
PREMIER, FINALLY MADE
IT INTO CABINET IN THE
PREVIOUS SHUFFLE.

Bill Murdoch is in his late forties, with a beard and brown hair. He wears a dark blue suit, white shirt and patterned brown tie.

Steve continues BILL MURDOCH, MPP
FOR BRUCE GREY.

John O’Toole is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He wears glasses, dark suit, blue shirt, striped red tie and brooch.

Steve continues AND JOHN O'TOOLE, WHO
REPRESENTS DURHAM.
I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO HOLD
TIGHT FOR A SECOND BECAUSE
Talking to Chris, Steve continues YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE
THESE GUYS SOME ADVICE.
YOU'RE THE EXAMPLE OF SOMEBODY
WHO EVENTUALLY MADE IT.

Chris says OKAY.

Steve says THESE TWO GUYS
HAVEN'T MADE IT YET.
RICK BRENNAN HAS GOT A STORY
IN
THE STAR
SAYS YOU'RE
SO UPSET, YOU'RE NOT GOING
TO RUN AGAIN NEXT TIME.
IS THAT RIGHT?

Bill says WHAT I SAID IF THE
ELECTION WAS THIS JUNE,
I WOULDN'T BE RUNNING.
AND THAT'S TRUE.

Steve asks BECAUSE?

The caption changes to "Bill Murdoch MPP, PC, Bruce-Grey."

Bill replies SORT OF LET DOWN.
FIGURE THERE'S NOT
MUCH MORE I CAN DO.
AND BE TIME TO GO.
NOW, THERE'S NOT AN ELECTION
FOR TWO YEARS YET, SO AS I
ALSO SAID TWO YEARS IS A
LONG TIME AWAY, SO WE'LL
JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENS
IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS.

Steve says WHAT'S THE POINT?
YOU FEEL YOU CAN'T MAKE THE
KIND OF CONTRIBUTION YOU
WANTED TO MAKE FROM
THE BACK BENCHES?

Bill says WELL, I GUESS I'VE BEEN
THERE TEN YEARS,
AND I'M NOT
GOING TO MAKE IT.
THAT'S OBVIOUSLY.
ONCE YOU'VE BEEN THERE TEN
YEARS, AND I CAN'T FIGURE
OUT WHAT THE
REASON WOULD BE.
I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS
MAYBE BECAUSE I SPOKE OUT A
BIT TOO MUCH, AND THAT WAS
FINE, I COULD LIVE WITH THAT.
BUT THEN YOU CAN SEE SOME OF
THE PEOPLE IN CABINET NOW
THAT ALSO SPOKE OUT,
AND THEY'RE THERE.

Steve says NAME
NAMES, LIKE WHO?

Bill says JUST LATELY, BRAD
CLARK GOT IN FOR MTO.

Steve says STONEY CREEK.

Bill says AND HE ACTUALLY VOTED
AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT,
WHICH IS SOMETHING
I HAVEN'T DONE.
I'VE THREATENED TO DO THAT.

Steve says WITH PERMISSION HE
VOTED AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.
ON THE SUPER CITY
THING FOR HAMILTON?

Bill says I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE
HAD PERMISSION OR NOT.
THAT'S HERE NOR THERE,
THE POINT IS HE HAS.
HE'S BEEN OUTSPOKEN, AND
AGREES WITH MY BILL I HAVE
IN THERE, MORE FREE VOTES.
SO HE GOT IN, AND THAT'S
FINE, I'M NOT SAYING BRAD
WON'T DO A GOOD JOB, DON'T
GET ME WRONG THERE, BUT
HE'S ONLY BEEN THERE A
COUPLE OF YEARS, SO THAT
THEORY'S GONE
OUT THE WINDOW.
SO WHAT'S THE THEORY?
MAYBE IT'S JUST NOT THERE
FOR ME IN THE CARDS.
THAT'S FINE.

Steve says JOHN, LET ME GET
YOUR TAKE ON IT.

The caption changes to "John O’Toole MPP, PC, Durham."

John says I WAS ELECTED TO
REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF DURHAM,
AND I FEEL I'M DOING
THAT EFFECTIVELY.
EVERYONE THAT'S THERE, I
WOULD SAY BILL AND CHRIS, AND
ALL OF OUR COLLEAGUES,
WE CAME HERE TO
MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
AND WE ALL WANT TO SERVE IN
AS HIGH A PROFILE POSITION
AS POSSIBLE.
IN SOME RESPECTS IT'S
GEOGRAPHY, AND IT'S
EVERYTHING TO DO WITH
GENDER AND ALL THE OTHER
ISSUES, AND IT'S IMPORTANT
TO HAVE REPRESENTATION FROM
ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
AND IN DURHAM, WE'RE VERY
FORTUNATE WE HAVE JIM FLAHERTY,
HE'S MINISTER OF
FINANCE, DEPUTY PREMIER,
JANET ECKERS, THE HOUSE
LEADER, MINISTER OF EDUCATION.

Steve says IT'S A NUMBERS GAME.

John continues CHRIS HODGESON.
BUT THAT DOESN'T
MEAN I'M INEFFECTIVE.
I CAN TELL YOU, AND THEY
WILL ATTEST, IN CAUCUS,
THAT'S WHERE I MAKE MY CONCERNS
OF MY CONSTITUENTS KNOWN.
AND I DO.

Steve says THE ALLEGATION IS
CAUCUS IS USELESS NOW.
THE PREMIER MAKES ALL THE
DECISIONS, THE CABINET...

John says I DON'T SUBORDINATE MY
VIEWS TO THAT AT ALL.
I STILL RELENTLESSLY TRY TO
HARP ON THE AGENDA THAT
I'M HEARING FROM DURHAM.
AND IF THE PREMIER LISTENS
TO THAT, TO BILL, OR TO
CHRIS, THAT WHAT WE'RE
REALLY HEARING FROM OUR
CONSTITUENTS, I BELIEVE
HE'LL RESPOND BECAUSE
HE WANTS TO GOVERN.

Steve says IS HE
LISTENING TO YOU?

John says IN MY VIEW, WE'VE HAD
PERSONAL INTERVIEWS WITH
THE PREMIER.
I'VE HAD ISSUES RIGHT
TO THE PREMIER'S OFFICE.

Steve says DOES HE LISTEN?

John says IN FACT, SOME OF THEM
HAVE BEEN SOLVED.
AND WE CAN'T SOLVE ALL THE
PROBLEMS ALL THE TIME.
BUT IN MANY CASES, I'VE
ACTUALLY SENT THINGS RIGHT
THROUGH TO THE OMBUDSMAN
WHERE I'M NOT SATISFIED.

Steve says HOW ABOUT
ON DOWNLOADING?
IT'S A BIG
ISSUE FOR YOU.
IS THE PREMIER LISTENING TO
YOUR VIEWS ON DOWNLOADING?

John says IT'S A VERY
COMPLEX MODEL.
THREE GOVERNMENTS
HAVE WORKED WITH IT.
THEY HAD DISENTANGLEMENT,
THEY HAD THE FAIR TAX
COMMISSION, WE HAD THE WHO
DOES WHAT COMMISSION, AND
REALLY THERE'S A LOT OF
SHELL GAMES GOING ON IN
TERMS OF WHAT MONEY... WE
DOWNLOADED 2.5 BILLION
AND WE UPLOADED 3 BILLION.
SO WE REALLY GAVE
THEM ROOM TO MOVE.
AND CLEARLY, IF YOU WERE
TO ASK CHRIS, HE PROBABLY
KNOWS THE NUMBERS
IN TORONTO.
I CAN TELL YOU IN DURHAM
THOUGH, THEY TOLD US THERE
WAS GOING TO BE A 10
MILLION DOLLARS SHORTFALL.
THEIR TREASURER, IN THE
PAPER, IN THE HEADLINES,
IN '97, '98, WITH THAT
DOWNLOAD, AND IN FACT THERE
WEREN'T BECAUSE THEIR
FORECAST NUMBERS DIDN'T
CONSIDER DECLINE
IN WELFARE RATES.

Steve says CAN I PUT SOMETHING TO YOU,
YOU TELL ME IF I'M WRONG.
I THINK YOU'RE
PULLING YOUR PUNCHES.
I THINK YOU'RE
PULLING YOUR PUNCHES.
I THINK YOU'RE ANGRIER ABOUT
IT THAN YOU'RE LETTING ON HERE.

John says WELL, EVERYONE THERE,
INCLUDING ME, WANTS TO SERVE
AN EFFECTIVE ROLE.
AND I BELIEVE THE DECISIONS
THE PREMIER ECHOED THIS
MORNING ARE GOING TO
BE VERY DIFFICULT.
AND I CAN SIT BACK AND POINT
THE FINGER MORE EASILY.
IF YOU'RE IN CABINET,
IT'S A TEAM GAME.
I BELIEVE AT THE END OF THE
DAY, THERE'S ONE CAPTAIN,
THAT'S MIKE HARRIS.
AND THE CABINET KIND OF
HAVE TO MOVE WITH THAT.

Steve says LET ME FIND OUT FROM
THE MINISTER AT THE TABLE HERE.
YOU WERE, I THINK IT'S SAFE
TO SAY, VERY PO'D WHEN YOU
DIDN'T GET INTO THE CABINET
THE FIRST TIME AROUND.
YOU'D BEEN A BACK
BENCHER WHEN YOU WERE A
THIRD PLACE PARTY.
YOU FINALLY GOT IN.
BETTER TO BE IN OR OUT?

Chris says LISTEN, IT'S
BETTER TO BE IN.

Steve says CAN YOU MAKE A
BETTER CONTRIBUTION IN
OR ARE YOUR
HANDS MORE TIED?

Chris says WELL, I CAN ONLY
SPEAK FOR MYSELF.
I THINK YOU MAKE A BIGGER
CONTRIBUTION IN THAN OUT.
THAT'S WHY MOST PEOPLE WANT
TO BE IN RATHER THAN OUT.

The caption changes to "Chris Stockwell. Minister of Labour."

Chris continues LET ME SAY, IT'S
UNDERSTANDING THE FRUSTRATION.
YOU HAVE 20-ODD CABINET
POSTS, AND YOU'VE GOT
NEARLY 60 MEMBERS.
THERE'S GONNA
BE DISAPPOINTMENT.
AND WAS I DISAPPOINTED?
OF COURSE I WAS.
I REALLY SAY TO BILL THOUGH,
IF HE DOESN'T THINK HE HAS
INPUT, I DON'T THINK HE
UNDERSTANDS HOW MUCH TIME
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE GOES IN
TRYING TO MAKE SURE BILL'S OKAY.
SINGLEHANDEDLY, I THINK
THEY DO MORE TIME ON
AGRICULTURE FOR BILL THAN
ANYBODY ELSE IN CAUCUS.
[laughing]
BUT I UNDERSTAND
HIS FRUSTRATION.
EVERYONE CAN UNDERSTAND.
IT'S LIKE GETTING PASSED
OVER FOR A PROMOTION.
YOU CAN RATIONALIZE IT ALL
YOU WANT, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT
UPSET, AND YOU'RE NOT
DISAPPOINTED, THEN REALLY
YOU HAVE NO ASPIRATIONS.

Steve says BUT THE GIST OF IT IS,
AS I UNDERSTAND WHAT BACK
BENCHERS TELL ME, SOMETIMES
NOT IN FRONT OF THE
CAMERAS, YOU KNOW,
PRIVATELY, IN WHICH CASE...

Chris says NO, ALL THE TIME NOT
IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS.
EXCEPT FOR BILL
AND A FEW OTHERS.

Steve says NOT ALL OF THE TIME.
IS THEY CAME TO QUEEN'S
PARK WANTING TO MAKE A
DIFFERENCE, THINKING THEY
COULD MAKE A CONTRIBUTION
WHETHER THEY WERE IN
CABINET AND WEREN'T, AND
THE WORST LESSON THEY'VE HAD
TO LEARN IS THAT EVEN IF
YOU'RE IN CABINET, IT'S NOTHING
MORE THAN A FOCUS GROUP.
ONE GUY OR THREE GUYS ARE
MAKING ALL THE DECISIONS.
NOW, THAT'S THE COMMENT
I HEAR ALL THE TIME.

John says IN
ALL
GOVERNMENTS.

Steve says IN ALL GOVERNMENTS.
BUT THIS ONE'S NO
DIFFERENT, I GUESS.
AND YOU GUYS SAID YOU WERE
GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.

Chris says I DON'T KNOW.
IT'S HARD FOR ME
TO COMMENT ON THAT.
I FEEL LIKE I
MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
I THINK I MADE A DIFFERENCE
WHEN I WASN'T IN CABINET,
TOO, TO BE QUITE HONEST.
MAYBE IT'S ALL
IN YOUR APPROACH.
I KNOW THAT SOME BACK
BENCHERS MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
I'LL TELL YOU FLAT OUT
THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
AND I KNOW BECAUSE OF WHO
THEY ARE, AND WHAT THEY SAY
AND HOW THEY REACT, THEY
DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
ARE THEY MAKING A DIFFERENCE
THAT SATISFIES THEM?
I DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S THE QUESTION.
BUT THE OTHER POINT I THINK
YOU NEED TO LOOK AT IS, AND
I BELIEVE THIS, IN OUR
CAUCUS, IN OUR CABINET,
I THINK IT'S MORE
EGALITARIAN THAN MOST.
AND I'VE SEEN CAUCUS STOP
LEGISLATION IN ITS TRACKS,
FLAT OUT AT CAUCUS.

Steve says GIVE ME ONE
EXAMPLE OF THAT.

Chris says IT'S HARD FOR ME TO JUST
COME OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD.
I'VE SEEN AGRICULTURE STUFF
JUST STOP DEAD BECAUSE HE
DIDN'T LIKE IT.
STOP DEAD.

Steve says SO MAYBE YOU'VE GOT MORE
SCHLEPP THAN YOU THINK YOU DO.

Bill says WELL, THAT COULD BE TRUE.
I DON'T KNOW.

Chris says YOU DO SO KNOW.
YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE.

Bill says JUST LIKE JOHN SAID, I
COME HERE TO REPRESENT
THE PEOPLE, TOO.
I DIDN'T CARRY MY PHONE
AROUND WAITING FOR THE CALL
TO GET TO CABINET.
I DIDN'T THINK I WAS
GOING TO GET APPOINTED.

Steve says IF YOU WERE LESS OUTSPOKEN,
MIGHT YOU BE IN BY NOW?

Bill says I DON'T KNOW.

Chris says PROBABLY.

Steve says ANYBODY EVER
SAID THAT TO YOU?
ANYBODY EVER PULLED YOU
ASIDE, ONE OF THE PREMIER'S
GUYS, AND SAID, YOU KNOW
WHAT, BILL, IF YOU DIDN'T
HAVE SUCH A BIG MOUTH,
YOU'D BE IN BY NOW.
He points to Chris and says THEY SAID IT TO HIM.

Chris says THEY SAID WORSE
THAN THAT TO ME.

[laughing]

Bill says AS I SAY, I DIDN'T CARRY
AROUND WAITING... I DIDN'T
EXPECT TO GET INTO
CABINET THIS TIME.
I THOUGHT THAT WAS GONE.
BUT THEN WHEN YOU SEE SOME
OF THE NEWER ONES GET IN,
I'M HUMAN, SO YOU
FEEL BAD ABOUT IT.
IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE
ELECTION, BRENNAN KNOWS WHEN
TO CALL YOU, THAT'S A GOOD
TIME, I WAS UPSET, AND I
THINK I'VE HAD A FEW OTHER
PROBLEMS TOO, I THOUGHT, TO
HELL WITH THIS, IF THERE
WAS AN ELECTION THIS
SPRING, I'M GONE.
BUT I'D CLEARED THAT BY
SAYING, IT'S TWO YEARS AWAY.
SO I'LL WORRY ABOUT IT THEN.

Steve says ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHRIS
HAS DONE, I THINK IT'S FAIR
TO SAY, HE'S A LOT LESS
OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THINGS HE
DOESN'T LIKE THE GOVERNMENT
DOING THAN HE USED TO BE
BECAUSE HE'S INSIDE
THAT TENT NOW.
WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO
DO THE SAME THING TO GET
INSIDE THE TENT?
SOME PEOPLE
CAN'T DO IT.

Bill says AND I PROBABLY COULDN'T.

Chris says BUT YOU SEE, THE
POINT IS, THOUGH, AND BILL
SAYS NOT LIKELY.
YOU CAN'T BE IN CABINET
AND TAKE THAT POSITION.
BECAUSE CABINET CREATES MORE
SOLIDARITY THAN CAUCUS.
YOU'RE THERE AT THE PLEASURE
OF THE PREMIER, TRUE, BUT
YOU'RE ALSO PART OF
THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.
YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE YOUR
FIGHTS INSIDE THAT ROOM,
AND COME OUT AS
A SOLID FRONT.
SO IF BILL'S SAYING TO YOU
NOT LIKELY I CAN'T DO THAT,
THEN WITH GREAT RESPECT
TO BILL, THERE'S NOT MUCH
CHANCE YOU'RE
WORKING THERE.

Steve says YOU'RE SINGING A
BIT OF A DIFFERENT TUNE.
IN 1995...

Chris says NO, I TALKED
ABOUT CAUCUS.

Steve continues IN 1995, YOU SAID BEING
OUTSPOKEN SHOULDN'T
KEEP YOU OUT OF CABINET.
THAT THAT WAS A RIDICULOUS
BAR TO HAVE TO JUMP UNDER.
TRUE.

Chris says SHOULDN'T KEEP YOU OUT OF
CABINET, BUT WHAT BILL SAID
IS IT'S NOT LIKELY I COULD
CHANGE EVEN IF I WENT
INTO CABINET.
IT
HAS
TO CHANGE.
EVERYBODY KNOWS FROM THE
BEGINNING OF TIME, IN
BRITISH PARLIAMENTARY
TRADITION, ONCE YOU GET
INTO CABINET, YOU ARE
TAKING THIS OATH.
YOU'VE GOT A RESPONSIBILITY.
IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO
ACCEPT THE RESPONSIBILITY,
I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU
CAN'T SAY I DON'T ACCEPT
THE RESPONSIBILITY
AND I STILL WANT IN.

Steve says LET ME TAKE
YOU BACK.
DID ANYBODY AT ANY TIME, YOU
RAN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN '95?

John says RIGHT.

Steve says ANYBODY AT ANY TIME SAY
JOHN, RUN FOR US,
YOU MIGHT MAKE CABINET?

John says I THINK EVERYONE GOES THERE
WITH THAT EXPECTATION.

Steve says ANYBODY
EVER SAY IT TO YOU?

John says NO ONE.
BUT I THINK BACK
OF YOUR MIND.
BILL WAS A WARDEN, I WAS
A REGIONAL COUNCILLOR.
I'D BEEN INVOLVED SINCE
1980 AS AN ELECTED PERSON.
AND I GUESS IT'S THE URGE TO
SERVE IN A MORE EFFECTIVE ROLE.
THAT SORT OF PERSONAL
LEADERSHIP QUALITY THAT MOST
PEOPLE HAVE IS THEY WANT TO
SERVE IN AN EFFECTIVE ROLE,
AND THAT'S WHERE THE
DECISIONS ARE MADE
ARE IN CABINET.
NOW, WE CAN INFLUENCE WHEN
THEY COME TO PREVIEW A BILL
IN CAUCUS, AND CERTAINLY
THERE ARE, I BELIEVE,
AMENDMENTS MADE
IN THAT PROCESS.

Steve says HOW MUCH ANGER DO YOU
THINK THERE IS ON THE BACK
BENCH OF THIS GOVERNMENT
RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IN THE
LAST CABINET SHUFFLE, TWO
ROOKIES GOT IN... THREE
ROOKIES GOT IN, FORGIVE
ME... ONE OF THEM TO A VERY
SENIOR JOB, ATTORNEY
GENERAL, AND SOMEONE WHO HAD
BEEN DUMPED IN THE PAST, BRENDA
ELLIOTT, WAS BROUGHT BACK.

John says I THINK THERE'S
BOTH SIDES OF IT.
I THINK THERE IS FRUSTRATION
AT ALL TIMES IN CAUCUS.
I BELIEVE THAT THE MINISTERS
AND IN FACT THE P.A. ROLE
COULD BE AUGMENTED A BIT.
WE COULD ASK TO TAKE A BIGGER
LEAD IN MINISTRY ACTIVITIES.
IN FACT, THE PREMIER HAS
MADE THAT VERY CLEAR TO US,
IF I'M NOT SPEAKING OUTSIDE
OF CAUCUS, THAT THERE IS A
MORE ACTIVE ROLE FOR
MEMBERS, MAYBE TO ADDRESS
THAT ISSUE OF FRUSTRATION.

Steve says ARE YOU A
PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT NOW?

John says YES, I'M A
PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT.
CONSUMER AND
COMMERCIAL RELATIONS.

Steve says DO YOU FEEL YOU
GET A CHANCE TO HAVE AN
INFLUENCE THAT WAY?

John says ABSOLUTELY.
I LED THE CONSULTATIONS
ON HEALTH PRIVACY.
I LED THREE CONSULTATIONS
ON THE REAL ESTATE BROKERS
ACT, THE AUTOMOBILE DEALERS
BROKERS ACT, THE TOURISM
ACT, THE FRANCHISE ACT.

Steve says SO OUR VIEWERS ARE
GOING TO SAY WHAT ARE YOU
COMPLAINING ABOUT THEN?

John says I'M NOT
COMPLAINING, STEVE.
IN FACT, ANY MEMBER THAT'S
THERE, IT'S SORT OF LIKE
WHAT CHRIS SAID.
YES, I WANT TO
BE IN CABINET?
WHY AREN'T I, I CAN
UNDERSTAND WITH JANET AND
JIM AND CHRIS HODGESON,
THAT DOESN'T RELINQUISH THE
FACT THAT IT'S UP TO ME TO
PUT PRESSURE ON TO SOLVE
PROBLEMS FOR MY
CONSTITUENTS.
I THINK I DO THAT.

Steve says WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE.
I WANT TO ASK BILL THIS.
BOB WOOD WAS HERE THE
OTHER DAY, YOUR COLLEAGUE
FROM LONDON.
AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS,
AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT,
MIKE HARRIS GIVES EVERYONE
IN THIS CAUCUS AN
OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A
CONTRIBUTION SOMEHOW.
NOT ALWAYS AS A CABINET
MINISTER, SOMETIMES DOING
SOMETHING ELSE.
BUT EVERYONE GETS A CHANCE
TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

Bill says YES, TO A POINT.
IT'S UP TO YOU TO MAKE
SURE YOU GET THAT CHANCE.
I MEAN I WAS A
PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANT.
I'M NOT NOW.
I HAD THAT CHANCE, SOME
THINGS DIDN'T GO RIGHT AND
THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE WAY I
PERFORMED, I DON'T KNOW.
I WAS GOING TO SAY, THOUGH,
YOU MENTIONED ABOUT THE ANGER.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S A LOT
OF ANGER, THERE'S A LOT OF
FRUSTRATION AND A LOT
OF DISAPPOINTMENT.
THAT'S THE BIG THING, THERE
WAS A LOT OF DISAPPOINTMENT
IN CAUCUS THAT THEY
WEREN'T CHOSEN.

Steve says LET ME GIVE THE
LAST 20 SECONDS TO YOU.

Chris says I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU
GET OVER THAT, THOUGH.
I WAS ANGRY, SURE.
I WAS DISAPPOINTED.
I WAS FRUSTRATED.
I DON'T KNOW HOW
YOU GET OVER IT.
YOU'VE GOT A BUNCH OF TYPE
A PERSONALITIES, STEVE.
NOBODY RUNS IN POLITICS
THAT ISN'T A TYPE A.
THEY WANT TO SUCCEED, THEY
WANT TO ACHIEVE THE TOP
OF THE HILL.
AND YOU'RE GOING TO
ONLY LET 25 OF 60.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE
DISAPPOINTMENT AND ANGER
REGARDLESS OF THE
CABINET MAKE-UP.

Steve says THAT'S TRUE.
KEEP YOUR ELBOWS UP, GUYS.
THANKS FOR COMING IN TODAY.
MUCH APPRECIATED.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
JOIN US AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND
FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF
4th READING.
SO LONG.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Researcher, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ted Ambrose.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2001, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Running the Economy AND the Cabinet