Transcript: Fourth Reading - Show 222 | Feb 11, 2001

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON
4TH READING.

Mike Harris stands behind a lectern. He is in his late fifties, clean-shaven with grayish hair.

Mike says SO TODAY I'M VERY
PROUD TO INTRODUCE
THE NEW PRO-GROWTH
CABINET.

Steve says SHUFFLING
IN, SHUFFLING OUT.
THE PREMIER SHAKES
THINGS UP IN CABINET.

Steve, Ruth, Richard and Mac sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a brown polo shirt under a gray jacket.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
GLAD TO HAVE YOU ABOARD
FOR THIS WEEK'S EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
MIKE HARRIS IS CALLING IT
A MAJOR CHANGE OF PLAYERS,
BUT NOT OF THE AGENDA.
THURSDAY MORNING, BEFORE
TAKING OFF FOR CHINA,
THE PREMIER UNVEILED HIS
MOST AMBITIOUS CABINET
SHUFFLE SINCE BECOMING
PREMIER IN 1995.
THE SHUFFLE WAS
NECESSITATED BY THE RECENT
DEPARTURES OF ERNIE
EVES AND AL PALLADINI,
TWO MINISTERS WITH SENIOR
ECONOMIC PORTFOLIOS.
THE BIG STORY
OF THIS SHUFFLE?
THE ELEVATION OF FORMER
ATTORNEY GENERAL JAMES
FLAHERTY TO THE TWO
MOST PRESTIGIOUS
JOBS IN CABINET.

A clip plays.

Mike says I'M VERY PROUD TO INTRODUCE
THE NEW PRO-GROWTH CABINET.
A NEW TEAM THAT IS PREPARED
TO MAKE TOUGH DECISIONS
THAT ARE NEEDED TO
KEEP ONTARIO STRONG.

Steve says SIXTEEN NEW
CABINET POSITIONS WERE
FILLED IN ONE OF THE
BIGGEST SHAKEUPS
IN QUEEN'S PARK HISTORY.

Holding a bible, James Flaherty reads a piece of paper. He is in his forties, clean-shaven with short brown hair.

James says I, JAMES MICHAEL FLAHERTY
SWEAR THAT I WILL -

Steve says HIGHLIGHTED
BY JIM FLAHERTY'S LEAP TO
FINANCE MINISTER
AND DEPUTY PREMIER.
[applause]
CHRIS HODGSON MAKES THE
MOVE TO MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
TO HEAD UP THE PREMIER'S
SMART GROWTH INITIATIVE.

Tony Clement is in his mid-forties, with short dark hair and clean-shaven.

Tony says I TONY CLEMENT SWEAR THAT
I WILL DULY AND FAITHFULLY -

Steve says TONY CLEMENT
VACATES THAT MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS POST TO MANAGE
THE GOVERNMENT'S BIGGEST
PORTFOLIO, HEALTHCARE.
CABINET VETERAN ELIZABETH
WITMER TAKES OVER
ENVIRONMENT AS THE
GOVERNMENT STANDS TO FACE
MORE SCRUTINY IN THE
PENDING ROUNDS OF THE
WALKERTON INQUIRY.
ONE OF THE BIGGEST
SURPRISES IS A HUGE
PROMOTION FOR DAVID
YOUNG, ELECTED
FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN 1999.
HE JUMPS FROM THE BACK
BENCHES TO TAKE OVER
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S JOB.
HE'S ONE OF FOUR MPP'S FROM
THE BACKBENCH TRENCHES
TO MAKE THE CUT.
BRAD CLARK IS THE NEW
TRANSPORTATION MINISTER.
BRIAN COBURN HEADS UP
AGRICULTURE AND RURAL AFFAIRS.
AND BRENDA ELLIOTT MAKES
HER WAY BACK INTO CABINET
IN THE INTERGOVERNMENTAL
AFFAIRS PORTFOLIO
AFTER BEING DROPPED IN
AN EARLIER SHUFFLE.

Fast clip continues to show the ministers appointments.

Mike says IT CLEARLY IS A VERY,
VERY MAJOR CHANGE.
THERE'S A LOT OF
SHIFT, BUT AS I SAY,
THE AGENDA DOESN'T SHIFT.
BUT YES, I'M
LOOKING FORWARD
TO THE NEW PEOPLE
IN CABINET.

The clip ends.

Steve says THOSE ARE THE MAJOR CHANGES
IN MIKE HARRIS' NEW CABINET.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILE FOR SOME
FURTHER ANALYSIS.
GEOGRAPHICALLY, THE PREMIER
CONTINUES TO REWARD
THE BURGEONING SUBURBS
AROUND TORONTO,
THE SO-CALLED 905 REGION.
SEVEN ARE FROM THE 905
INCLUDING JIM FLAHERTY,
THE NEW FINANCE MINISTER
AND DEPUTY PREMIER.
THAT'S ACTUALLY DOWN THREE
FROM THE LAST CABINET
BECAUSE OF AL PALLADINI'S
VOLUNTARY WITHDRAWAL
AND MARGARET MARLAND'S
BEING DROPPED
AS CHILDREN'S MINISTER.
IT COULD INCREASE TO EIGHT
IF OR PROBABLY WHEN ROB
SAMPSON IS CLEARED IN A
CURRENT INVESTIGATION AND
RETURNS AS CORRECTIONS
MINISTER AND INCIDENTALLY
ONE OTHER MINISTER
WAS ALSO DROPPED.
THAT WAS ERNIE HARDEMAN AS
THE AGRICULTURE MINISTER.
NOW LESS THE FOLKS IN
TORONTO THINK THEY'RE BEING
SHORTCHANGED, THERE WILL
NOW BE FOUR MINISTERS
FROM THE BIG SMOKE,
THAT'S UP ONE.
THERE ARE FOUR MINISTERS
FROM EASTERN ONTARIO.
THAT'S ALSO UP ONE.
HAMILTON GETS ITS
FIRST MINISTER
IN FIVE-AND-A-HALF YEARS.
THAT'S BRAD CLARK
IN TRANSPORTATION.
THERE IS ONLY ONE MINISTER
FROM NORTHERN ONTARIO,
THAT'S MIKE HARRIS HIMSELF
IF YOU CONSIDER NORTH BAY
TO BE THE NORTH.
THERE ARE NOW IN THE NEW
CABINET OF ONTARIO...
THAT, LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN,
IS YOUR NEW
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

[laughing]

A slate shows the information mentioned.

Steve continues SO LET'S GET
INTO THIS NOW.
THEIR VIEWS ON WHAT
THE PREMIER CALLS
HIS PRO-GROWTH CABINET
FROM MAC PENNEY,
FROM GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS.

Mac Penney is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with white hair. He’s wearing a light green turtleneck sweater under a black jacket.

Steve continues RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER,
WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH THE
ODD SHUFFLE HERSELF.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She’s wearing glasses, silver necklace, a green turtleneck sweater and brown blazer.

Ruth says ONE.

Steve says ONE SHUFFLE,
THAT'S RIGHT.
AND RICHARD MAHONEY
FROM THE LAW FIRM
FRASER MILNER CASGRAIN.

Richard Mahoney is in his forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a dark blue suit, light shirt and silk green tie.

Steve says TO YOU FIRST.
THE BIG STORY HERE IS
JIM FLAHERTY OBVIOUSLY
WHO GETS THE TWO BIGGEST
JOBS IN CABINET BESIDES
THE PREMIER'S JOB.
WHY DID HE GET IT?

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says WELL, STEVE, I'M NOT SURE
THAT'S THE BIG STORY.
I THOUGHT THE BIG STORY WAS
THAT MIKE HARRIS WAS STILL
PREMIER AND THAT BILL
MURDOCH'S STILL NOT IN.
WHEN I LOOK AT THE LIST,
I WAS REALLY SHOCKED.

Steve laughs and says OKAY, THE SECOND BIGGEST
STORY IS THE FLAHERTY STORY.

Mac says I THINK THAT Mr. FLAHERTY
HAS - IT'S A VERY
INTERESTING MOVE, I THINK,
QUITE A METEORIC RISE
TO THAT POSITION
BY ANY STANDARD.
I THINK Mr. FLAHERTY HAS A
NUMBER OF STRONG SUPPORTERS
WITHIN THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE ITSELF.

Steve says NAME NAMES.

Mac says I THINK SOME OF THE SENIOR
STAFF PEOPLE THERE,
CHIEF OF STAFF, FOR
EXAMPLE, I THINK.
THE PREMIER'S
SENIOR COUNCIL.

Steve says GUY GIORNO.

Mac continues GUY GIORNO AND
BILL HOURIGAN.

Steve says TOM LONG
LIKES HIM.

Mac says HE'S NOT IN
Mr. HARRIS' OFFICE
BUT HE MAY WELL
LIKE HIM.

Steve says RON
MCLAUGHLIN,
FORMER CHIEF
OF STAFF.

Mac says RON MCLAUGHLIN.

Steve says LIKES HIM.

Mac says ANOTHER WHO'S
RUMOURED TO LIKE HIM.

Mac laughs.

Ruth says THIS IS HIS LEADERSHIP
TEAM, IS IT?

Mac says THERE'S A CORE OF
SUPPORT THERE,
I THINK, FOR
Mr. FLAHERTY.
AND I THINK ALSO THAT
THE SENIOR LEADERSHIP
IN THE PARTY WAS PROBABLY
IMPRESSED BY Mr. FLAHERTY'S
PERFORMANCE OVER
LAST FALL.
AND I THINK THE WAY THAT HE
MANAGED THE GOVERNMENT'S
LEGAL INVOLVEMENT IN
THE WALKERTON CASE.

Steve says OKAY, RICHARD, LET ME
GET TO YOU ON THIS.
SOME WOULD SAY IT'S CURIOUS
THAT THE GUY WHO'S GETTING
THE TOP FINANCIAL JOB
IN THE PROVINCE NOW,
THE FINANCE
MINISTER'S POSITION,
THREE MONTHS BEFORE HAVING
TO PUT A BUDGET TOGETHER,
RIGHT, HE'S KIND OF
GETTING THIS NOT EXACTLY
AT THE LAST MINUTE BUT HE'S
NOT GETTING A LOT OF TIME,
AND WITHOUT COMING
FROM A PORTFOLIO WHICH
HAD A GREAT DEAL TO
DO WITH THE ECONOMY.
HE WAS THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL.
DO YOU FIND IT A CURIOUS
APPOINTMENT FOR THAT REASON?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says I MEAN I GUESS SO.
I THINK THAT'S RIGHT
BECAUSE A LOT OF THE ISSUES
THAT HE MADE HEADLINES WITH
IN JUSTICE WERE NOT ONLY
SO-CALLED SOCIAL ISSUES,
BUT THEY WERE KIND
OF MARGINAL WEDGE ISSUES LIKE
CRACKING DOWN ON SQUEEGEE KIDS
AND RE-INTRODUCING THE
SAME LEGISLATION
THE NDP DID ON
VICTIMS OF CRIME.
IN FACT, I THINK
RE-LEGISLATING THE
SAME THINGS THAT YOU
HAD ALREADY DONE.
SO THESE GRABBED GOOD
HEADLINES FOR
THE GOVERNMENT, BUT THEY
WEREN'T SUBSTANTIVE.
AND AS YOU SAY, THEY WEREN'T
MATTERS OF THE ECONOMY.
BUT HE DID, IN A TIME WHEN
THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT
HAD VERY LITTLE TO BOAST
ABOUT IN TERMS OF ITS AGENDA,
HE WAS IN THE PAPERS
ALL THE TIME SEEN
TO BE DOING SOMETHING.
SO I THINK THE ONE THING
WE WANT TO BE SEEN AS
DOING WITH THIS SHUFFLE
IS SAYING, LOOK,
WE'RE GOING TO BE ACTIVIST
OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS.
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION IS BACK.
WE'VE GOT ALL THESE
CONSERVATIVES LIKE
FLAHERTY AND CLEMENT
IN KEY PORTFOLIOS,
AND THEY WANTED TO
CONVEY THAT IMAGE.
WHETHER HE HAS THE
ECONOMIC SORT OF GRAVITAS
TO SORT OF PULL OF
A BUDGET OR -

Steve says WE'LL KNOW IN
THREE MONTHS.

Mac says BUT I THINK TO THAT POINT
THE OTHER THING IS,
THE LAST LAWYER
WHO HAD A JOB,
HAD THE JOB AS
FINANCE MINISTER DID
A PRETTY GOOD
RUN OF IT.
INTRODUCED FIVE
BUDGETS.

Steve says HE ALSO HAD 15 YEARS
IN PUBLIC LIFE BEFORE
HE BECAME THE
TREASURER.

Mac says YES, BUT NONE OF THEM IN AN
FINANCE RELATED PORTFOLIO.
[laughing]

Richard says UNLESS I'M BEING
MISUNDERSTOOD BEFORE
YOU JUMP IN, RUTH, I AM
IN FAVOUR OF LAWYERS
GETTING MORE JOBS.

[laughing]

Steve says YES, I'M SURE YOU ARE.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says LET ME JUST PUT MY
SPIN ON THAT ONE.
FRANKLY, I THINK
THAT IN THE FINANCIAL
SITUATION THIS
GOVERNMENT IS IN,
THERE AREN'T VERY MANY
TOUGH CHOICES TO BE MADE
IN PREPARATION FOR
THE NEXT BUDGET.
THEY'VE SAID THEY'RE GOING
TO BALANCE IT COME WHAT MAY.
AND I THINK THE PREMIER AT
THE ECONOMIC BRIEFING
FOR CAUCUS LAST WEEK
PROBABLY LAID OUT FAIRLY
CLEARLY WHERE THE
BUDGET IS GOING.
SO I THINK THAT JIM
FLAHERTY WILL READ IT
VERY WELL WHEN IT COMES
BUDGET DAY IN MAY.

Steve says NOW AS WE LOOK AT -
THERE'S A CONSTANT READING
OF TEA LEAVES THAT GOES
ON RIGHT NOW BECAUSE
EVERYBODY'S TRYING TO
FIGURE OUT WHAT Mr. HARRIS
IS TRYING TO SIGNAL IN
TERMS OF HIS SUCCESSOR.
IS HE SETTING UP FLAHERTY
TO BE HIS SUCCESSOR BY
GIVING HIM THE DEPUTY
PREMIER AND THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE?
IS HE SETTING UP TONY
CLEMENT AS HE GETS THIS
BIG MOVE TO HEALTH WHICH IS A
20-BILLION-PLUS MINISTRY?
WHAT'S HE TRYING TO DO WITH
CHRIS HODGSON NOW THAT
HE'S TAKEN HIM OUT OF
TREASURY BOARD AND GIVEN
HIM MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
WHERE HE CAN TRAVEL
ALL OVER THE PROVINCE
AND BEAT THE BUSHES?
WE'RE LOOKING
INTO THESE THINGS.
FOR FLAHERTY, DO YOU
SUSPECT THAT THE POSITION
IS NOT AS BIG A GIFT AS YOU
MIGHT THINK BECAUSE
WE'RE ABOUT TO GO INTO ROUGH
ECONOMIC TIMES AND MAYBE
THIS IS NOT GOING TO
BE THE SWEET JOB
HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE?

Mac says EVERYONE INTERPRETS THESE
THINGS TO SUIT THEIR OWN
AGENDA, OF COURSE, BUT IT
COULD PROVE TO BE A
BIT OF A POISON
CHALICE.
I'M TRYING TO
THING OF THE LAST
FINANCE MINISTER WHO
BECAME PREMIER.

Steve says FRANK MILLER.

Mac says FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME.

Mac laughs.

Steve says OH, OKAY,
TAKE THAT ONE BACK.

Mac says I THINK LARRY GROSSMAN
BECAME OPPOSITION
LEADER AS FINANCE
MINISTER.
I CAN THINK OF A NUMBER
OF OPPOSITION LEADERS
WHO BECOME FINANCIAL
MINISTERS, BUT FRANK MILLER
WAS THE LAST TO BECOME PREMIER
AND FRANK HAD A LONG HISTORY
IN PUBLIC LIFE BEFORE HE
BECAME FINANCIAL MINISTER.
I THINK, AS I SAY, THESE
THINGS CAN CUT ANY WHICH WAY
AND I THINK IT'S FAR
TOO EARLY TO SUGGEST THAT
HARRIS IS SETTING UP
ANY SORT OF SUCCESSOR
POSITIONS NOW.
I MEAN, IF YOU'RE
HODGSON.
IF YOU'RE A HODGSON
SUPPORTER, YOU SAY,
WELL HE DIDN'T GET THE BIG
JOB BUT ISN'T IT GREAT,
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS.
YOU GET OUT.
YOU TRAVEL THE PROVINCE.
YOU MEET A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Steve says AND MIKE'S TRYING TO
PROTECT HIM FROM THE BAD NEWS.

Mac says PROTECT HIM FROM THE
BAD NEWS IN HEALTH.
PROTECT HIM FROM THE
BAD NEWS IN FINANCE.
AND HE MEETS PEOPLE IN
TRAVELS AND HE GETS
MORE PROFILE THAN HE WOULD
EVER FROM THE BOWELS
OF MANAGEMENT BOARD.

Ruth says I WOULD AGREE WITH MAC'S
ANALYSIS THAT THERE'S
NOT MUCH POINT IN
READING THE TEA LEAVES,
BUT AS I LOOK AT
THE TEA LEAVES,
WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT GOOD
OLE BOYS ARE ALL THERE
IN THE TOP POSITIONS
AND THE CLIQUE
IS STILL
FAIRLY TIGHT.

Steve says LET ME SPIN A QUESTION OUT
OF THAT TO YOU, RICHARD.
AND THAT IS THE NEWSPAPERS
THE DAY AFTER REALLY WANTED
TO INTERPRET THIS AS A
GIANT STEP TO THE RIGHT
BY THE GOVERNMENT
IDEOLOGICALLY AND I ASKED
Mr. HARRIS ABOUT THIS AT
HIS NEWS CONFERENCE
AND HE SAID,
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
WE HAVE A CORPORATE AGENDA,
NOT SOMETHING THAT FLITS
AROUND FROM LEFT TO RIGHT.
WE HAVE A CORPORATE AGENDA
AND I'M MERELY CHANGING
THE PLAYERS TO IMPLEMENT
THAT SAME AGENDA.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

Richard says WELL, HE HAS A CORPORATE
AGENDA, ALL RIGHT.

Steve says I THINK HE MEANT
THAT IN THE SMALL-C
SENSE OF THE WORD.

[laughing]

Richard says NO, I THINK THE GOVERNMENT,
I THINK THEY QUITE CLEARLY
INTENDED TO SIGNAL
BY PUTTING IN SOME
OF WHO THEY BELIEVE THEIR
BEST PLAYERS TO BE,
WHO HAPPEN ALSO TO BE
ON THE RIGHT
OF THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY -

Steve says IS THIS IS A BIG IDEOLOGICAL
SHIFT TO THE RIGHT?

Richard says NO, I THINK IT WILL BE
THEY WILL HAVE A VERY
CONSERVATIVE TAX
CUTTING AGENDA OVER
THE NEXT COUPLE
OF YEARS.
I THINK THEY'LL WANT TO
HAVE AN AGENDA FIRST AND
FOREMOST WHICH THEY HAVEN'T
REALLY HAD OVER
THE LAST YEAR OR TWO.

Steve says NOTHING NEW ABOUT
ANY OF THAT, NO.

Richard says NO.
WELL, THEY HAVEN'T
DONE MUCH SINCE '99.
SO I THINK IT'S AN EFFORT
TO SORT OF GET SOME
CONTROL OF THE AGENDA.
BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TO
BE A CONSERVATIVE AGENDA.
YOU CAN'T HAVE TONY CLEMENT
IN HEALTH WITHOUT
LOOKING AT IT AS
A CONSERVATIVE -

Steve says WHAT DOES THAT
MEAN THEN, RUTH?

Ruth says WELL, I THINK IT MEANS AND
THE PREMIER SIGNALLED
LAST WEEK SOME - HE MADE
SOME BIZARRE STATEMENT,
EVEN MORE BIZARRE THAN HIS
STATEMENT ON YOUR SHOW
THAT WE WOULDN'T NEED
SICK KIDS IN TEN YEARS.
HE THEN WENT ON TO SAY,
WE DON'T NEED MORE MONEY
IN HEALTH, AND I THINK THAT
SETS UP TONY CLEMENT
TO BEGIN TO LOOK FOR
WHAT HE KEEPS SAYING
ARE CHOICES IN HEALTHCARE,
WHICH IS TWO-TIER.
WE CAN'T SPEND ANY MORE
PUBLIC MONEY BUT IF THOSE
WHO CAN AFFORD TO CAN SPEND
THEIR OWN MONEY ON HEALTH,
THEN THEY OUGHT TO
BE ALLOWED TO DO SO.

Steve says HE NEVER SAID HE
FAVOURED TWO-TIER,
BUT HE DID SAY I FAVOUR
MORE CHOICE IN HEALTH.

Ruth says THOSE OF US WHO ARE
CRITICS SAY TWO-TIER,
BUT FRANKLY ALLOWING
PEOPLE TO MAKE THE CHOICE
AS TO WHETHER THEY AT TO
GO A PRIVATE CLINIC,
A LA KING'S HEALTH CENTRE
CARE AND GET PAID FOR -

Steve says MAYBE NOT THE BEST EXAMPLE
TO GIVE RIGHT NOW.

[laughing]

Ruth says IT'S A GOOD ONE.
OR WHETHER YOU KEEP IT ALL
AS A PUBLICLY ADMINISTERED
SYSTEM IS, I THINK,
THE QUESTION.

Steve says MAC.

Mac says WELL I THINK THAT IF IT
SELLS NEWSPAPERS, GREAT.
MAYBE IT'S HELPFUL FOR THEM
TO PUT IT AS A HUGE STEP
TO THE RIGHT AND I SAW
Mr. MCGUINTY TALKING
ABOUT SOME SORT OF
NEO-CONSERVATIVE CONSPIRACY
AND STOCKWELL
DAY'S TROJAN HORSE,
OR SOME ALLUSIONS
OF THAT NATURE.
BUT I THINK THAT
THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS ALWAYS HAD
AN AGENDA.
THE AGENDA HAS
BEEN VERY CLEAR.
I DON'T SEE THAT THIS
SIGNALS ANY CHANGE
IN THE AGENDA AND FACE IT,
THE AGENDA'S REALLY
DRIVEN BY THE PREMIER'S
COMMITMENT TO IT.
AND YOU DON'T WANT TO SAY,
WELL EVERYONE ELSE
IS A BIT PLAYER AROUND THAT,
BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S
OUT OF LINE TO SUGGEST THAT AS
LONG AS MIKE HARRIS
IS COMMITTED TO THAT
AGENDA, THAT'S THE WAY
THIS GOVERNMENT
WILL GO.
AND WHETHER IT'S TONY
CLEMENT OR NOT TO
IN ANY WAY DIMINISH
THEIR ROLE, BUT STILL
THAT'S WHAT DRIVES
THE AGENDA.

Richard says HE DOES CERTAINLY
SIGNAL BY DOING THIS
THAT HE INTENDS TO
STAY AROUND.
I MEAN IF IT HAD BEEN
A SMALLER SHUFFLE,
WITH LESS CONSEQUENCE.
IT CERTAINLY LOOKS LIKE
HE'S PUTTING TOGETHER
A TEAM FOR THE
NEXT ELECTION.
I ABSOLUTELY EXPECT THAT
THAT WILL BE A VERY
CONSERVATIVE MESSAGE
ON A WHOLE BUNCH
OF DIFFERENT FRONTS.
AND IT WILL STILL BE A
GOVERNMENT RUN VERY
TIGHTLY BY THE PREMIER
AS IT ALWAYS IS.
AS RUTH SUGGESTS, FLAHERTY
WILL DELIVER THE BUDGET
IN MANY WAY THAT THE PREMIER
TELLS HIM TO DELIVER.

Ruth says YOU SEE, I PUT A
DIFFERENT SPIN.
I WOULD NOT AGREE THAT IT
NECESSARILY INDICATES
THAT HARRIS INTENDS TO SAY,
BECAUSE I SAW IT AS PUTTING
THE KEY LEADERSHIP
CONTENDERS ON A PAR
WITH EACH OTHER AND SORT
OF SETTING THE STAGE
FOR A LEADERSHIP REVIEW
SHOULD HE DECIDE TO GO.

Steve says I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING
BECAUSE ONE OF THE PEOPLE
WHO DIDN'T MOVE TODAY WHO
HAS OFTEN BEEN TALKED
ABOUT AS POTENTIAL
LEADERSHIP CANDIDATE
IS JANET ECKER AND HE
WAS ASKED ABOUT THAT.
YOU KNOW, YOU'VE
MOVED HODGSON.
YOU MOVED CLEMENT.
YOU'VE MOVED FLAHERTY.
WHAT ABOUT JANET ECKER?
AND THE PREMIER WENT OUT
OF HIS WAY IN THE NEWS
CONFERENCE - I MADE A
NOTE OF IT HERE - TO SAY,
SHE IS A TALENTED SENIOR
MEMBER OF CABINET.
SHE'S CAPABLE OF BEING
MINISTER OF FINANCE
OR DEPUTY PREMIER.
SO THAT WAS A PRETTY STRONG
SIGNAL THAT HE WAS SENDING OUT
THAT HE MAY IN FACT
BE TRYING TO SET UP
THAT SUCCESSION.

Ruth says HE GAVE HER HOUSE LEADER
IN ADDITION TO EDUCATION.
BUT I THINK THAT THE
RATIONALE FOR THAT IS MUCH
MORE LIKELY THAT TO HAVE
MOVED HER WOULD HAVE
SENT A SIGNAL TO THE
TEACHERS AND HER OPPONENTS
IN THE EDUCATION SYSTEM THAT
SOMEHOW THERE WAS GOING
TO BE A CHANGE AND TO ME
THE MESSAGE IS CLEARLY,
WE'RE ON COURSE AND WE'RE
STAYING ON WITH RESPECT
TO EDUCATION.
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THERE.

Mac says I THINK THAT IF
ECKER HAD MOVED,
I THINK THERE WAS SOME
EXPECTATION IN THE COMMUNITY
THAT IF THE GOVERNMENT
WAS GOING TO BURY
THE HATCHET IN A SENSE
WITH THE TEACHERS' UNIONS,
ECKER WOULD HAVE
TO BE MOVED,
PUT SOMEBODY ELSE
IN THERE TO DO IT.
I THINK THE FACT THAT
SHE'S THERE SHOWS
THAT THE GOVERNMENT WILL, I
THINK, STAY THE COURSE
AND IN FACT IN CERTAIN
PARTS OF THE PARTY,
WE HAVE TO GO
FURTHER IN EDUCATION.

Steve says LET ME ASKED YOU, RUTH,
GRAB A SIP OF WATER AND
THEN I WANT TO ASK YOU
ABOUT A REALLY SIGNIFICANT
APPOINTMENT THAT I KNOW YOU
WOULD BE INTERESTED IN
AND THAT IS AT THE
ENVIRONMENT MINISTRY.
THEY HAVE PUT ONE OF THEIR
MOST COMPETENT AND CAPABLE
MINISTERS IN ELIZABETH
WITMER INTO THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT, TAKING
OUT OF THAT PORTFOLIO
SOMEBODY WHO HAD ONLY BEEN
THERE FOR A SHORT TIME AND HAD
THE TERRIBLE MISFORTUNE OF
GETTING THE JOB JUST A FEW
MONTHS BEFORE WALKERTON
HAPPENED, DAN NEWMAN.
WHAT DO YOU SEE ELIZABETH
WITMER'S APPOINTMENT AS?

Ruth says LET ME SAY, I FEEL
SORRY FOR NEWMAN.
I MEAN, HE WAS THERE.
HE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A
CHANCE TO MAKE ANY POLICY
CHANGES AND HE TOOK THE
BRUNT OF THE ERRORS
THAT THEY'VE MADE.
I FIND IT INTERESTING
THAT WITMER IS GONE.
I COULDN'T FIND
ANYONE OTHER THAN MYSELF
WHO HAD BEEN BOTH
HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT
AND NOW THAT COMBINATION'S
THERE AGAIN,
SO I HOPE SHE PICKS UP ON
THE EXPERIENCE SHE'S
HAD IN HEALTH AND DOES
SOMETHING IN ENVIRONMENT.

Steve says OF COURSE SHE DID
IT THE OTHER WAY.

Ruth continues SHE CAN ONLY MAKE A
DIFFERENCE IF SHE'S GIVEN
THE MONEY TO DO IT.
AND IT ALL DEPENDS ON
WHETHER THEY ARE IN FACT
PREPARED TO RIGHT SOME OF
THE ERRORS THAT THEY MADE
THROUGH THE CUTBACKS
IN THE FIRST FEW YEARS.
AND IF IT'S AN
ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND
IF THIS REPORT THEY'VE NOW
GOT, WHICH SAYS THAT THERE'S
THINGS ARE BAD IN THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT,
IF IT'S AN
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF OOPS
WE WENT TOO FAR,
ELIZABETH CAN DO IT.
IT'S INTERESTING, BUT I
MEAN HER REPUTATION IN
HEALTH WAS LARGELY BASED
ON THE FACT THAT WHENEVER
THERE WAS A PROBLEM,
THEY POURED MONEY AT IT.
THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE
FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES
IN HEALTHCARE THAT WE
NEEDED TO HAVE MADE.
THEY PUT MONEY IN.
ARE THEY GOING TO GIVE
HER THE MONEY
TO SOLVE ENVIRONMENT
PROBLEMS?

Steve says ADD ALL THESE
POINTS UP.
THE PREMIER IN
WALKERTON DID SAY,
IF IT TAKES MORE
MONEY TO FIX ALL THIS,
WE'LL SPEND MORE MONEY.
HE'S NOW PUT ONE
OF HIS SENIOR,
MORE CAPABLE MINISTERS IN
THE ENVIRONMENT PORTFOLIO.
HE IS ALSO NOW ARMED WITH
THE VAL GIBBONS' REPORT
WHICH YOU JUST REFERENCED,
THAT SAYS THAT IT CAN'T
JUST BE THE MINISTRY
OF THE ENVIRONMENT
THAT WORRIES ABOUT
THE ENVIRONMENT.
ALL THE MINISTRIES ACROSS
THE BOARD HAVE GOT
TO BE FAR MORE HIP
TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

Ruth says WHICH WE HAD SAID
A LONG TIME AGO.

Steve asks OKAY, BUT DOES THAT
GIVE YOU ENCOURAGEMENT?

Ruth replies NO, NOT BECAUSE OF SOME OF
THE DETAILS IN THE GIBBONS'
REPORT, WHICH WE WON'T
GET INTO AT THIS POINT.
I THINK THE ENCOURAGEMENT
WILL COME IN THE BUDGET
IF THERE'S MORE MONEY
FOR THE ENVIRONMENT,
AND THERE'S ALSO A VACANCY
FOR DEPUTY MINISTER
IN ENVIRONMENT, AND I THINK
IF SOMEBODY'S PUT IN THERE
WHO IS CAPABLE OF CARRYING
THROUGH AN AGENDA,
WELL, THAT WILL BE
A SIGNAL.

Steve says OKAY, RICHARD.

Richard says I'M WITH RUTH.
I WOULDN'T HOLD
OUT A LOT OF HOPE.
I THINK THAT YOU'VE
HAD 50 PERCENT CUT
IN THE ENVIRONMENT
MINISTRY'S BUDGET.
YOU'VE HAD 1,200
PEOPLE LET GO THERE.
Mrs. WITMER'S ABSOLUTELY
A VERY COMPETENT PERSON
BUT HAD A RECORD OF GETTING
UNDERCUT BY THE PREMIER
AND THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE IN HEALTH.
SO I WOULDN'T THINK SHE'D
BE ABLE TO LEAD THE BATTLE
AROUND THE TABLE TO WRENCH
A WHOLE BUNCH OF MONEY
OF THE CENTRE, AND I
HOPE TO BE PROVEN WRONG,
AS RUTH SAYS.

Mac says I THINK THAT'S
PART OF THIS.
THE OTHER PART OF THE
STORY ON Mrs. WITMER'S
APPOINTMENT IS, WE
ALL ACKNOWLEDGE
SHE'S ONE OF THE MORE
COMPETENT MINISTERS.
I AGREE WITH RUTH THAT IF
THE RESOURCES DON'T FOLLOW HER
TO THE MINISTRY, YOU
PROBABLY END UP JUST
WASTING A GOOD MINISTER.
THERE IS GOING TO BE A
NEW CABINET COMMITTEE
THAT THE ENVIRONMENT CREATED
WHICH SHE WILL CHAIR.
THE MINISTRY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT'S BEING
APPOINTED TO THE
POLICY PLANNING, PP and C,
COMMITTEE OF CABINET,
SENIOR COMMITTEE OF CABINET,
ALL OF WHICH I THINK
SIGNALS THE GOVERNMENT'S
PREPARED
TO TAKE SERIOUSLY.
THE WALKERTON INQUIRY'S
ENTERING ITS SECOND STAGE,
WHICH WILL LOOK AT THE ROLE
OF PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT.
AND I THINK THAT
LOOKING DOWN THE ROAD,
THEY'RE NOT PRE-JUDGING
WHAT WILL COME OUT OF THAT
PHASE OF THE INQUIRY; BUT
IF ANYONE COULD MANAGE
TO USE THAT SPIN
TERMINOLOGY - THE RESULTS
OF THAT INQUIRY - IF THEY'RE
NEGATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT,
IS PROBABLY
ELIZABETH WITMER.

Steve says DO YOU HAVE ANY
BEHIND-THE-SCENES INFORMATION
YOU CAN SHARE WITH US AS TO
WHY DAN NEWMAN WAS MOVED
OUT OF THAT PORTFOLIO
TO BEGIN WITH,
BECAUSE Mr. HARRIS
CERTAINLY WENT OUT
OF HIS WAY ON MANY
OCCASIONS TO PRAISE HIM.
ACKNOWLEDGING HE'D BEEN PUT
INTO A MINISTRY THAT WAS,
AS IT TURNED OUT TO BE,
WELL BEYOND ANYTHING
YOU'D HAVE TO DEAL WITH
WHEN HE FIRST GOT THERE.
BUT Mr. HARRIS OFTEN SAID
HE WAS A SMART, CAPABLE,
HARD WORKING,
REALLY TRIED HARD.

Mac says WELL, I THINK THAT'S VERY
TRUE AND WHY THE PREMIER
CHOSE TO MOVE HIM AT
THIS TIME, I DON'T KNOW,
MAYBE JUST DEPRESSURIZE
HIM A BIT AND MOVE HIM
OUT OF A VERY, VERY
DIFFICULT SITUATION.
I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE
COULD HAVE CONDEMNED
THE WAY THAT Mr. NEWMAN HANDLED
THE WALKERTON SITUATION,
SO I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY
UNFAIR TO PORTRAY HIS MOVE
IN CABINET AS BEING A
DEMOTION OR SOME SORT
OF PUNISHMENT FOR
MISMANAGING THAT BECAUSE
I DON'T THINK HE DID.

Richard says I DON'T HAVE ANY
BEHIND-THE-SCENES KNOWLEDGE
LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE, MAC.
BUT I THINK ONE
OBVIOUS ANSWER
TO STEVE'S QUESTION WOULD
BE, DAN NEWMAN'S -
RUTH SAYS SHE FEELS
SORRY FOR HIM.
I DON'T REALLY HAVE
THAT MANY EMOTIONS.
HE SEEMS LIKE A
NICE ENOUGH FELLOW,
BUT HE CLEARLY DIDN'T
STRIKE ME ANYWAY AS SOMEONE
WITH THE CABINET SORT OF
WAY TOWARD SERIOUSNESS
AS SOMEONE LIKE
ELIZABETH WITMER.
HE WAS NEVER GOING TO BE
A FRONTBENCH PERFORMER
AND THEY HAVE GOT A SERIOUS -
PERHAPS THEIR MOST SERIOUS
PROBLEM IN THE ENVIRONMENT
FOR THIS GOVERNMENT.
SO NO MATTER HOW MUCH
CONFIDENCE HE WOULD HAVE
MOUTHED IN THE PERSON,
HE NEVER COULD HAVE
DELIVERED THE GOODS,
I DON'T THINK.

Steve says RUTH, I WANT TO PUT THIS
TO YOU AND THEN I
WANT TO GET MAC
ON IT AS WELL.
IAN SCOTT ONCE SAID TO ME
THAT HE THOUGHT YOUR
TWO MOST SOLID CABINET
PERFORMERS HAD TO BE THE
MINISTER OF FINANCE AND THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL BECAUSE
YOUR MINISTER OF FINANCE
HAS TO BE ABLE TO GO
THE PREMIER AND SAY,
YOU CAN'T AFFORD THIS.
AND YOUR ATTORNEY GENERAL
HAS TO BE ABLE TO GO TO
THE PREMIER AND SAY, THIS IS
ILLEGAL AND YOU CAN'T DO THIS.
WE NOW HAVE AN ATTORNEY
GENERAL IN DAVID YOUNG
WHO WAS A ROOKIE.
HE'S BEEN IN POLITICS
FOR A YEAR AND A HALF.
WE ALSO HAVE IN JIM
FLAHERTY AS MINISTER
OF FINANCE AND DEPUTY PREMIER
SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN IN -

Richard says AN ALMOST ROOKIE.

Steve continues AN ALMOST ROOKIE.
HE'S BEEN IN FOR,
WHAT, SIX YEARS.
FIVE-AND-A-HALF YEARS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Ruth says WELL, I THINK IAN SCOTT'S
FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL'S
COMMENT IS VERY WISE.
I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW MIKE HARRIS
WELL ENOUGH TO KNOW
WHETHER HE REALIZES WHAT
A LOSS TO HIM PERSONALLY
ERNIE EVES IS GOING TO BE
AND WHETHER HE RECOGNIZES
THAT EVERY PREMIER NEEDS
SOMEBODY WHO SAYS, STOP.
NO, DON'T DO THAT.
AND IF HE REALIZES THAT,
THEN PERHAPS HE FEELS CLOSE
ENOUGH TO BOTH FLAHERTY AND
CLEMENT THAT HE CAN
SEE THEM PLAYING THAT
ROLE AND THEREFORE
HAS PUT THEM
CLOSE TO HIM.
BUT I DON'T THINK EITHER
CLEMENT OR CERTAINLY NOT
THE NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL
HAVE THEIR OWN INTRINSIC
INDEPENDENT BASE THAT WOULD
ENABLE THEM TO GO HEAD
TO HEAD WITH MIKE HARRIS
UNLESS MIKE HARRIS
WANTS THEM TO BE THEIR
SORT OF SEA ANCHOR TO HIM,
AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
HE'S INTELLIGENT ENOUGH
TO KNOW THAT
HE NEEDS ONE.

Richard says I THINK IAN SCOTT IS RIGHT,
BUT I WOULD SAY THAT REALLY
SINCE IAN SCOTT, THERE
WAS A TRADITION IN ONTARIO
OF HAVING VERY STRONG
FINANCE MINISTERS
AND VERY STRONG
ATTORNEY GENERALS.
I THINK OF IAN SCOTT.
I THINK OF ROY
MCMURTRY.
AND BEFORE THAT,
JOHN CLEMENT,
A WHOLE BUNCH
OF PEOPLE.
I WOULD ARGUE
THAT SINCE SCOTT,
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S
DEPARTMENT HAS NEVER BEEN
QUITE AS PROMINENT IN THE
MAKEUP OF GOVERNMENT
AS IT HAS BEEN.

Steve says WELL FOR THE NDP, THEY
BARELY HAD ANY LAWYERS
IN THE CAUCUS SO IT WAS PRETTY
HARD TO PICK TO BEGIN IN.

Ruth says YEAH, BUT I THINK THE
MINISTER IS LESS -

Richard says AND THE TORIES HAVEN'T HAD
ANYONE OF GREAT WEIGHT
IN THAT ROLE, AND FLAHERTY
WAS THEIR BEST PERFORMER
THEY HAD TO DATE.

Ruth says LET ME JUST ADD TO
THAT THOUGH BECAUSE
I DON'T DISAGREE
WITH RICHARD.
I THINK THAT THE DEPUTY
ATTORNEY GENERAL,
SORT OF SEEN AS THE
CHIEF LAW PERSON BECAUSE
ONE OF OUR ATTORNEY
GENERALS MARION BOYD
WAS NOT A LAWYER.
SO THE STRENGTH COMES FROM
THE PRESTIGE OF THE DEPUTY
MINISTER IN ATTORNEY
GENERAL AS OPPOSED
TO THE INCUMBENT
MINISTER.

Steve says WHAT ABOUT
THAT, MAC?
NOW THAT ERNIE'S GONE,
WHO IS IN THIS CABINET
THAT CAN GO UP TO MIKE HARRIS
AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT,
YOU'RE WRONG; YOU
CAN'T DO THIS?

Mac says I DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANYONE WHO CAN STEP
INTO ERNIE'S SHOES
THAT WAY REALLY.
FRANKLY I DON'T
THINK THERE IS.
I THINK ANYONE ENJOYS THE
PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP
THAT HARRIS HAD WITH
ERNIE OR THAT EVES
ENJOYED WITH
THE PREMIER.
I REALLY DON'T
THINK THERE IS.
WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE CAN
GROW INTO THAT ROLE OR
THE PREMIER CAN COME TO
TRUST SOMEONE TO THE DEGREE
THAT HE TRUSTED ERNIE, WE
CAN SPECULATE ABOUT THAT.
I MEAN MAYBE Mr. HODGSON.
MAYBE TONY CLEMENT.
I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANYONE THERE RIGHT NOW.
I WOULDN'T NOTE THAT
WHEN IAN SCOTT MADE THAT
OBSERVATION, I DON'T KNOW
HOW LONG HE'D BEEN
IN PUBLIC LIFE EITHER,
SO I MEAN THAT'S ONE
THING TO KEEP IN MIND.
AND I THINK TO RUTH'S
POINT ABOUT THE DEPUTY
ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE
FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY
GENERAL WAS CURRENTLY
THE CABINET SECRETARY,
I BELIEVE, ANN WAS
THE FORMER DEPUTY
ATTORNEY GENERAL SO THE
PREMIER'S OFFICE AND
THE CABINET OFFICE WOULD
HAVE HER ADVICE AS WELL
TO RELY ON, AS WELL
AS THE ADVICE
OF THE EXISTING
DEPUTY MINISTER.

Steve says IS THERE ANYBODY ON
THE PREMIER'S STAFF,
IF NOT IN HIS CABINET, WHO
CAN GO TO HIM AND SAY,
MIKE, YOU'RE
WRONG ABOUT THIS.
YOU GOTTA CHANGE
YOUR MIND.

Mac says YEAH, I THINK THERE ARE A
NUMBER OF PEOPLE ON
HIS STAFF WHO CAN DO THAT
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY
A QUESTION OF - MY
EXPERIENCE WITH Mr. HARRIS
IS THAT HE IS A VERY
SMART POLITICIAN.
AND IF HE HAS A POSITION
WHICH HE BELIEVES
INSTINCTUALLY IS RIGHT,
THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE
A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
THROW WEIGHT WITH HIM
TO MOVE HIM OFF THAT.

Steve says AND WHO'S
GOT THAT THROW WEIGHT?

Mac says I'M NOT SURE THAT ANYONE
IN THE CURRENT CABINET
WOULD HAVE THAT SORT
THROW WEIGHT.

Ruth says SOMEONE LIKE DAVID
LINDSAY WHO'S WITH, WHAT,
SUPERBUILD CORPORATION,
MIGHT WELL BE ABLE
TO CARRY THAT ROLE.

Steve says IT'S A PRETTY
SHORT LIST, THOUGH.

Ruth says IT'S A PRETTY
SHORT LIST.

Mac says BUT I THINK IT'S A SHORT
LIST WITH ANY PREMIER
OR WITH ANY LEADER
OR WITH -

Richard says IT'S A PROBLEM WHEN THERE'S
NOBODY IN ANY GOVERNMENT,
WHEN THERE'S A SHORT
LIST OR NO ONE.

Steve says OKAY, RUTH, I GOTTA GET
YOU IN ON THIS BECAUSE
THIS I FOUND MOST
INTERESTING AND CURIOUS.
WE HAVE A NEW HEALTH
MINISTER IN TONY CLEMENT.
WE'VE ALREADY
TALKED ABOUT THAT.
AND TONY'S COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTIONARY CREDENTIALS,
THANK YOU, ARE IMPECCABLE.
AWESOME, THAT'S A
GOOD WORD, RIGHT?
I ALSO NOTE ON THE LIST
HERE THAT WE HAVE
WHAT THEY'RE CALLING AN
ASSOCIATE MINISTER
OF HEALTH, AND I'VE NOT
SEEN THIS TERM BEFORE,
BUT HELEN JOHNS, FORMERLY
THE CITIZENSHIP MINISTER,
IS NOW THE ASSOCIATE
MINISTER OF HEALTH.
A) DO YOU KNOW
WHAT THAT MEANS?
AND B) WHAT DOES THE
MINISTER THINK
OF HAVING AN
ASSOCIATE MINISTER?
DID YOU EVER HAVE ONE
AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

Ruth says YES, PREMIER RAE APPOINTED
A NUMBER OF ASSOCIATE
MINISTERS, BUT THEY USUALLY
ENDED UP HAVING A SORT
OF SPECIFIC AREA OF A
MINISTRY CARVED OUT FOR THEM,
AND WHAT'S INTERESTING
ABOUT THIS MOVE IS,
THAT IT'S NOW STILL THE
MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND LONG
TERM CARE, BUT SENIORS
HAS BEEN HIVED OFF
AND GONE BACK TO
CAMERON JACKSON.
ONE OF MY FAVOURITE
MINISTERS.

Steve laughs.

She continues AND WHO IS THE MINISTER OF
CITIZENSHIP WHICH IS NOT
AN APPROPRIATE FIT FOR HIM
ANYWAY AND NOW SENIORS.
SO WHERE HELEN
JOHNS WILL FIT IN,
OTHER THAN I HAVE TO SAY,
AS I LOOK AT HELEN JOHNS
REMAINING IN CABINET AND
I'M ASSUMING THAT HE DIDN'T
BRING BRENDA ELLIOTT BACK
BECAUSE HE FELT SHE COULD
HANDLE PREMIER BERNARD
LANDRY IN QUEBEC -
SHE GOT INTERGOVERNMENTAL
AFFAIRS.
THAT PERHAPS THAT VERY
MALE, GOOD OLE BOYS,
AS I'VE ALREADY CALLED
IT, CABINET NEEDED
SOME GENDER BALANCE.

Steve says YOU WANT TO RUN
THAT BY ME AGAIN?

[laughing]

Mac says HOW DOES THAT SPEAK
TO THE ISSUE OF
AN ASSOCIATE MINISTER?

Steve says I DO WANT TO FIND
OUT ONE THING THOUGH.
BASICALLY - I'M GOING
TO SAY THIS BLUNTLY.
DOES A MINISTER WHO
HAS A LINE MINISTRY,
WHO ALSO HAS A
JUNIOR MINISTER,
FIND THAT JUNIOR
MINISTER TO BE A PAIN
IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT?

Ruth says I'M GOING TO ANSWER BLUNTLY
AND SAY IT DEPENDS ON
THE MINISTER AND THE
JUNIOR MINISTER.

Steve says THAT'S BLUNT ENOUGH.
SORRY, I
INTERRUPTED YOU.
GO AHEAD.

Mac says IN YOUR CASE.

Ruth says IN YOUR CASE I KNOW
WHAT THE STORY WAS.

Ruth says I'M NOT
GOING THERE.

[laughing]

Richard says SHE'S CLEARLY
NOT GOING THERE.
BUT I THINK IT IS A
RECIPE FOR PROBLEMS.
IN HEALTH YOU'VE
GOT A HUGE MINISTRY,
SO YOU COULD CARVE
OUT A PORTION
AND GIVE IT TO
HELEN JOHNS.
BUT PROBABLY MORE LIKELY
IT'S THE KIND OF THING
WHERE ONE MINISTER
STANDS UP ONE DAY,
THE JUNIOR MINISTER SAYS SOMETHING THAT ONLY
ANGERS THE PEOPLE IN
THE MINISTER'S OFFICE,
AND THE MINISTER HIMSELF
BECAUSE THAT PERSON IS,
YOU KNOW, TRUDGING ON
TERRITORY OR TRYING
TO TAKE OVER TERRITORY,
AND CABINET MINISTERS
COMPETE FOR TURF
ALL THE TIME.
AND THESE TWO ARE IN
THE SAME DEPARTMENT,
SO I THINK IT'S PROBABLY
MORE NUISANCE THAN HELP.

Steve says WELL I NOTICED THAT WHEN
HELEN JOHNS TOOK THE OATH
OF OFFICE AND WALKED
BACK TO HER SEAT,
SHE HAD TO WALK BY TONY
CLEMENT AND THERE WAS -
I DON'T THINK I'M GOING
OVERBOARD IN SAYING,
A RATHER AWKWARD HANDSHAKE
BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
IT WAS NOT JOVIAL
AND COLLEGIAL.
IT WAS SLIGHTLY
AWKWARD.
IT MAY JUST BE THAT THE TWO
OF THEM DON'T KNOW EACH
OTHER VERY WELL.
IT MAY JUST BE THAT THEY'RE
NOW GOING TO BE WORKING
A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY
THAN THEY WANT TO BE.

Ruth says IT'S ALSO GEOGRAPHY, BECAUSE
CERTAINLY WHEN I WAS THERE,
IN THAT BIG
MACDONALD BLOCK,
MY OFFICE WAS IN ONE
BUILDING AND MY ASSOCIATE
MINISTER'S WAS
DOWN, UP THE LOBBY,
AND UP INTO
ANOTHER BUILDING.
SO YOU CAN JUST GO AND
HAVE A LOOK AT THAT.

[laughing]

Steve says WE'VE LITERALLY GOT 30
SECONDS LEFT AND I WANT TO
GIVE IT TO YOU, MAC, TO PUT
A BRIGHT BOW ON THE TOP
OF THIS PACKAGE
FOR OUR VIEWERS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK MIKE
HARRIS TRIED TO DO
WITH THIS CABINET SHUFFLE
GENERALLY SPEAKING?

Mac says I SEE IT AS BEING
VERY MUCH
A STAY-THE-COURSE
CABINET SHUFFLE.
THERE'S AN EFFORT ON THE
PART OF THE PREMIER
TO BRING IN SOME
NEW BLOOD
AND TO PROMOTE SOME
PEOPLE IN CABINET
WHO'VE PROVEN TO BE
SOLID PERFORMERS.
I DON'T THINK THERE ARE TOO
MANY SURPRISES IN PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN PROMOTED
FROM THE BACKBENCH.
I THINK THAT PEOPLE AROUND
HERE WOULD HAVE IDENTIFIED
THEM AS GOOD SOLID
CANDIDATES FROM THE GET GO.
IN TERMS OF THE AGENDA, I
DON'T THINK IT SIGNALS
ANY CHANGE IN TERMS OF
THE AGENDA AT ALL.

Steve says FULL
SPEED AHEAD.

Mac says FULL SPEED AHEAD.

Steve concludes MAC PENNEY, RUTH GRIER,
RICHARD MAHONEY,
THANK YOU FOR THIS.
AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM
ON THE TORY GOVERNMENT'S
CABINET SHUFFLE.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Researcher, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ian Partridge.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2001, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Fourth Reading - Show 222