Transcript: Show #205 | Oct 01, 2000

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows Queen Elizabeth II signing a document in Parliament. Pierre Trudeau sits opposite her.
Then, fast clips show Pierre Trudeau and Bill Davis at the legislature; and then, images of Steve's interview with Bill appear.

Steve says THIS
WEEK ON 4TH READING,
THE TRUDEAU LEGACY.
ONE OF PIERRE TRUDEAU'S
GREATEST ALLIES
REFLECTS ON THE VOICE
OF A GENERATION.

(music plays)
Steve sits at a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a light gray coat over a black polo shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND YOU'RE
WATCHING 4TH READING.
THE COUNTRY CONTINUES THIS
WEEKEND TO COME TO GRIPS
WITH WHAT WE HAVE LOST.
PIERRE TRUDEAU'S
BODY LIES IN STATE
IN THE HALL OF HONOUR ON
PARLIAMENT HILL TODAY
AND INTO TOMORROW MORNING,
TO BE FOLLOWED BY
A STATE FUNERAL IN
MONTREAL ON TUESDAY.
IN THE HOUSE OF
COMMONS ON FRIDAY,
THE PARTY LEADERS ALL
OFFERED THEIR TRIBUTES
TO CANADA'S 15TH
PRIME MINISTER.
IN THIS PROVINCE, ONE OF
TRUDEAU'S LONGEST STANDING
POLITICAL FRIENDS AND
ADVERSARIES WAS FORMER
PREMIER WILLIAM DAVIS.
BOTH MEN CAME TOGETHER MOST
NOTABLY IN THE EARLY 1980s
TO REPATRIATE CANADA'S
CONSTITUTION AND ENTRENCH
A CHARTER OF RIGHTS
AND FREEDOMS.
I SPOKE WITH BILL
DAVIS ON FRIDAY,
THE MORNING AFTER
TRUDEAU'S DEATH,
AT HIS HOME IN
BRAMPTON.

Now, a clip shows Steve and Bill sitting in a living room.
Bill is in his seventies, clean-shaven with receding gray hair. He wears a beige jacket over a white shirt.

Steve says Mr. DAVIS, I WANT TO
KNOW WHERE YOU WERE
AND HOW YOU HEARD THE NEWS
OF Mr. TRUDEAU'S DEATH
AND WHAT YOUR
IMMEDIATE REACTION WAS
WHEN YOU HEARD IT?

Bill says I GUESS IT'S FAIR TO STATE
THAT I WAS NOT TOTALLY
SURPRISED BECAUSE I THINK
THERE WAS SOME INDICATION
THAT Mr. TRUDEAU WAS NOT
WELL AND THAT THIS
SAD OCCURRENCE DIDN'T
COME AS A SURPRISE.
BUT, STEVE, TO SAY I
WASN'T IMPACTED BY IT
WOULD BE A MISTAKE.
IT'S ALWAYS DIFFICULT
FOR PEOPLE TO TRY
AND EXPLAIN
HOW THEY FEEL.
I WAS ASKED WHAT I FELT
BECAUSE I WAS IN A SIMILAR
SITUATION WHEN JOHN
KENNEDY WAS SHOT,
ON MY WAY TO BURLINGTON
TO OPEN A HIGH SCHOOL.
THERE'S A CERTAIN SADNESS
BECAUSE WHILE WE DIFFERED
POLITICALLY IN TERMS OF
OUR PARTISAN APPROACH
TO PUBLIC LIFE, THERE WAS A
GENUINE DEGREE, I THINK,
A MUTUAL RESPECT,
PERHAPS EVEN ONE MIGHT
GO SO FAR AS TO SAY
AFFECTION SOME DAYS.

Steve says I WANT TO PICK
UP ON THAT
BECAUSE THAT IS
INTERESTING.
HE IS THIS FRENCH, CATHOLIC,
ELITE, ARISTOCRATIC,
LOTS OF FAMILY MONEY.
YOU ARE THIS SMALL
TOWN METHODIST,
VERY PRAGMATIC
ONTARIO LAWYER,
AND YET YOU DID ON
OCCASION GET ON VERY WELL.
WHAT WAS THE SOURCE
OF YOUR ENTENTE?

Bill says I GUESS BECAUSE I WAS,
AS I WAS AND STILL AM,
AND HE WAS, AND I GUESS THE
DIFFERENCES WERE SUCH
THAT IT WAS KIND OF FUN FOR
US TO SHARE OUR VIEWS
ON SOME ISSUES THAT DIDN'T
RELATE TO POLITICS,
AND I REALLY
THINK THE RESPECT
AND THE AFFECTION
WAS QUITE GENUINE.
AND I NEVER TRIED TO
MATCH HIM INTELLECTUALLY
BUT COMING FROM A SMALL
TOWN, THERE WAS A CERTAIN
DEGREE OF WISDOM
THAT WE COULD BRING
TO SOME OF THE
DISCUSSIONS.

Steve says I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY,
YOU'RE NOT HIS KIND OF GUY.

Bill says NO, I THINK THAT WE HAD
VERY LITTLE IN COMMON.
I MEAN, HE WAS A VERY
DISCIPLINED PERSON.
HE CERTAINLY LOOKED
AFTER HIMSELF FROM
A HEALTH STANDPOINT,
BETTER THAN I DID,
ALTHOUGH I PROBABLY IN MY
YOUTH PARTICIPATED AS MUCH,
IF NOT MORE, THAN HE
DID IN CERTAIN SPORTS.

Steve interrupts and says I DON'T THINK HE
PLAYED FOOTBALL.

Bill says NO, HE DIDN'T.
IN FACT WE WERE
AT, I GUESS,
CERTAINLY TWO GREY
CUP GAMES TOGETHER
AND HE HAD HIS BOYS - ONE
OF THEM WAS AT OLYMPIC
STADIUM AND I DON'T SAY
THIS IN ANY CRITICAL SENSE,
BUT Mr. TRUDEAU'S KNOWLEDGE
OF CANADIAN FOOTBALL
WAS SOMEWHAT LIMITED.
SO I EXPLAINED TO THE
BOYS WHAT WAS HAPPENING
AS BEST I COULD.
I REMEMBER THAT
VERY WELL.

Steve says HE ALWAYS SAID, FOOTBALL'S
NOT A FRENCH CANADIAN SPORT.
ALTHOUGH HE'D LOVE TO
SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH THE ALOUETTES.

Bill says I WAS GOING TO SAY,
THE ALOUETTES
ARE NOW DOING
QUITE WELL.

Steve says YOU'RE A TORY LOYALIST
AS YOU HAVE OFTEN SAID,
BUT YOU GOT ON BETTER WITH
THIS LIBERAL PRIME MINISTER
THAN YOU EVER DID WITH
THAT TORY PRIME MINISTER
JOE CLARK; HOW COME?

Bill says WELL, I DID GET
ALONG WITH JOE CLARK.
JOE CLARK WAS NOT
THERE FOR, IN MY VIEW,
A SIGNIFICANT LENGTH OF
TIME TO MAKE A MARK,
BUT A MAN OF GREAT
INTEGRITY AND INTELLIGENCE.
I THINK IT WAS
PARTIALLY, STEVE,
BECAUSE I WAS INVOLVED
IN THE PUBLIC SCENE
FOR A GREATER LENGTH OF
TIME WITH Mr. TRUDEAU.
AND WE HAD CERTAIN
INTERESTS IN COMMON.
I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE
LOOK AT THE '81, '82 PERIOD.
THEY FORGET THAT MY
RELATIONSHIP STARTED BACK
IN '71 IN VICTORIA WHERE
WE HAD ACTUALLY TOTAL
UNANIMITY ON THE
CONSTITUTION, THE CHARTER.

Now, a clip shows Bill Davis shaking hands with Pierre Trudeau. They stand outside the Centre Block surrounded by other politicians.

Steve says UNTIL BOURASSA
WENT HOME.

Bill says UNTIL ROBERT RETURNED TO
QUEBEC AND DETERMINED
AFTER ABOUT A WEEK OR
10 DAYS, HE PHONED ME
AND SAID HE COULDN'T
SELL IT POLITICALLY.
BUT THERE WAS A
RELATIONSHIP THEN BECAUSE
ONTARIO'S POSITION ON IT
GOES BACK TO Mr. ROBARTS.
REALLY DIDN'T CHANGE ALL
THAT PERIOD OF TIME.
AND THE GREAT IRONY WAS
IN THE '81, '82 PERIOD,
WHERE THE CONSERVATIVES
WHO WERE NOT FOND OF
Mr. TRUDEAU, IF I CAN
PHRASE IT THAT DELICATELY,
COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY I
WAS STILL SUPPORTIVE
OF HIS POSITION, AS
WAS DICK HATFIELD.

Steve interrupts and says I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON
THAT, BECAUSE IT WAS YOU,
IT WAS NEW BRUNSWICK'S
HATFIELD, AND THAT WAS IT.
YOU REJECTED -
INITIALLY ANYWAY,
ALL OF YOUR OTHER
PROVINCIAL COLLEAGUES
AND YOU STOOD
WITH HIM.

Bill smiles and says NO, I DIDN'T
REJECT THEM.
I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY
THAT THEY DID NOT WELCOME
RICHARD AND MYSELF
FOR A PERIOD OF TIME.
I MEAN, AT THE
PREMIERS' CONFERENCES,
WE ALWAYS LEFT THAT SUBJECT
TO THE END AND WE GOT ALONG
QUITE WELL WITH ALL OF THEM
ON ISSUES UNRELATED TO THAT.

Steve says BUT HIS GREATEST
ACHIEVEMENT WAS
THE REPATRIATION OF THE
CONSTITUTION AND THE CHARTER,
WHICH HE WOULDN'T
HAVE HAD WITHOUT YOU ON SIDE.

Now, a clip shows Queen Elizabeth II and Pierre Trudeau signing a document.

Steve continues DID HE EVER AT ANY TIME
THANK YOU FOR THAT,
EXPRESS ANYTHING?

Bill says I THINK IF YOU READ
WHAT HE HAS WRITTEN,
READ BETWEEN SOME
OF THE LINES, YES,
HE'S NOT THE KIND OF
PERSON THAT WOULD EXPRESS IT
IN EXAGGERATED TERMS.
BUT I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD
THAT THE SUPPORT
OF HATFIELD AND THE SUPPORT
OF ONTARIO, MYSELF,
WERE REALLY QUITE
IMPORTANT TO THE PROCESS.
AND I THINK HE
WAS APPRECIATIVE.
I WOULD BE SELLING HIM
SHORT IF I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
I THINK HE WAS.

Steve says ON THE OTHER HAND, AT THAT
TIME THERE WAS A PHONE CALL
RIGHT NEAR THE END,
AT THE 11TH HOUR,
WHERE YOU SAID
TO HIM, LOOK IT,
YOU GOTTA FISH OR CUT
BAIT, OTHERWISE
I'M GOING WITH THE
OTHER SIDE.
DO YOU WANT TO TELL US
ABOUT THAT PHONE CALL?

Bill says NO, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS
EVER SUCH A PHONE CALL.
WHAT THERE WAS AT ONE POINT
IN TIME WAS THE INTEREST
ON HIS PART IN MOVING
UNILATERALLY.
AND THAT WAS THE POINT
WHERE I SAID TO HIM,
I COULD NOT SUPPORT THAT
UNLESS WE GAVE IT ONE MORE GO.
AND WE DID, AND THE ONE
MORE GO WAS SUCCESSFUL
WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT
THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
DID NOT BECOME PART OF IT.
I ALWAYS TAKE A BIT OF
EXCEPTION TO PEOPLE
WHO SAY WE LEFT
QUEBEC OUT.
I THINK IN A FACTUAL SENSE,
QUEBEC DECIDED NOT TO COME IN,
AND I ALWAYS REMIND
PEOPLE THAT WHILE THIS WAS
A DISAPPOINTMENT TO ME AS
IT WAS TO EVERYBODY ELSE,
THERE WAS SOME
REPRESENTATION FROM QUEBEC
AT THAT TABLE.
THE PRIME MINISTER
HAD BEEN ELECTED
BY THE PEOPLE
OF QUEBEC.
A LOT OF HIS MINISTERS
HAD BEEN ELECTED
BY THE PEOPLE
OF QUEBEC.
SO TO SAY THAT THERE WAS NO
SORT OF QUEBEC INVOLVEMENT,
THERE WASN'T LEGALLY.
IT WAS NOT THE
GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC,
NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, BUT
THERE WERE SOME LEADERSHIP -
THERE WAS SOME
LEADERSHIP FROM QUEBEC
AT THAT TABLE.

Steve says YOU TWO HAD GREAT - WANT
TO CALL THEM FIGHTS OVER
THE YEARS ON THE ISSUE OF
OFFICIAL BILINGUALISM
FOR ONTARIO, WHICH HE
VERY MUCH WANTED
AND YOU THOUGHT IT
WAS NOT NECESSARILY
IN THE BEST INTEREST OF
THE PROVINCE.
HOW DID HE TRY TO MAKE
YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND?

Bill says WELL LISTEN, HE WORKED
VERY HARD AT IT,
WANTED ME TO ENTRENCH IT
IN THE CONSTITUTION AND
I TOLD HIM THAT FROM OUR
STANDPOINT IT WAS
AN INCREMENTAL PROCESS.
I WAS ABLE TO POINT OUT TO
HIM THAT WE HAD MOVED IN
TERMS OF THE COURTS, IN
TERMS OF THE LEGISLATURE.
THAT WE HAD BILINGUAL
ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.
WE MOVED TO HAVE BILINGUAL
SECONDARY SCHOOLS,
AND I RECALL WHEN I WAS
ABLE TO SHOW THE THEN
PREMIER OF THE PROVINCE OF
QUEBEC THAT 5.8 PERCENT
OF THE POPULATION OF
ONTARIO DECLARED FRENCH
AS THEIR MOTHER TONGUE, THAT
5.6 PERCENT OF THE ELEMENTARY
AND SECONDARY SCHOOL
STUDENTS WERE IN BILINGUAL
HIGH SCHOOLS AND ELEMENTARY
SCHOOLS, HE WAS SURPRISED.
SO WAS Mr. TRUDEAU.
AND I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD
THAT MY APPROACH WAS ONE
THAT WAS WORKING IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
AND I THINK HISTORY WILL
INDICATE THAT THAT WAS
PROBABLY THE
RIGHT APPROACH.

Steve says BUT HE ALWAYS
DISAGREED WITH YOU.
HE ALWAYS WANTED YOU TO
TAKE THAT EXTRA STEP.

Bill says OH YES, LISTEN, HE WAS A
VERY PERSISTENT PERSON
AND VERY COMMITTED TO THIS,
BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
MY CONSCIENCE WAS CLEAR
BECAUSE IN REAL TERMS
WE WERE DOING A LOT OF IT
WITHOUT HAVING IT ENTRENCHED.

Steve says YOU OPPOSED HIM ON THE WAR
MEASURES ACT, DID YOU NOT?

Bill says NO I DIDN'T GET
TOO INVOLVED.
Mr. ROBARTS WAS THE PREMIER
AT THE TIME OF THE WAR
MEASURES ACT AND I DON'T
THINK - I'M GOING BACK NOW
IN MY MEMORY, STEVE, THAT
THERE WAS OPPOSITION
FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF
ONTARIO WITH RESPECT
TO THE WAR MEASURES ACT.
NOW THAT'S JUST
MY RECOLLECTION.
I PERSONALLY WAS NOT
INVOLVED AT THE TIME.
I WAS A MINISTER BUT
Mr. ROBARTS WAS THE PREMIER
AT THAT MOMENT.

Steve says I'M THINKING THOUGH THAT
YOU WERE PERSONALLY
OPPOSED TO IT AT
THE TIME.

Bill says I MAY HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY
AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE,
AND YET THERE'S NO QUESTION
EITHER THAT THERE WAS A GREAT,
I THINK, FEELING OF
SUPPORT FOR Mr. TRUDEAU
IN THE WAY HE HANDLED WHAT WAS
A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION.
I MEAN, I CAN RECALL
WATCHING IT ON TELEVISION
AND SO ON AND I THINK THERE
WERE A LOT OF CANADIANS WHO
DIDN'T TOTALLY UNDERSTAND
EXACTLY WHAT WAS HAPPENING
BUT WHO HAD SOME RESPECT
FOR THE PRIME MINISTER
FOR WHAT HE WAS DOING.
IT WAS THE SAME
WAY, I MEAN,
I DON'T PURPORT TO BE A
GREAT SCHOLAR OF HISTORY
BUT I DO UNDERSTAND IT A
BIT AND I THINK IF YOU
LOOK BACK IN TERMS OF ONE
OF HIS MAJOR CONTRIBUTIONS,
THAT SINGLE EVENT, I DON'T
KNOW WHETHER IT WAS
THE SATURDAY NIGHT OR THE
SUNDAY NIGHT BEFORE
THE FIRST REFERENDUM, HIS
SPEECH TO THE PEOPLE
OF QUEBEC AND TO THE PEOPLE
OF CANADA ON THAT OCCASION WAS,
I THINK, ONE OF THE
GREAT POLITICAL MESSAGES
IN THE CONTEMPORARY
HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY.
I CAN'T TELL YOU, YOU KNOW,
DID IT MEAN ONE POINT OR
TEN POINTS IN TERMS OF HOW
PEOPLE VOTED THE NEXT DAY
OR TWO DAYS LATER, BUT
CERTAINLY IT HAD
AN IMPACT AND I TOLD HIM.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
ALWAYS EASY TO CALL A
FIRST MINISTER OF A PARTY
WHICH YOU DON'T SUPPORT,
BUT LISTEN, HE
DESERVED A LOT
OF CREDIT FOR THAT.

Steve says DO YOU EVER FEEL IN ALL OF
YOUR DEALINGS WITH HIM
OVER THE YEARS THAT YOU GOT
TO KNOW THE REAL GUY?

Bill says I DON'T KNOW
THAT I DID.
I MEAN I'M NOT GOING TO BE
FACETIOUS HERE AND SAY
I'VE KNOWN YOU
FOR A LONG TIME.
I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I KNOW
THE REAL STEVE PAIKIN.
YOU MIGHT SAY, DO YOU KNOW
THE REAL BILL DAVIS
AND THE TRUTH OF THE
MATTER, YOU DON'T.
YOU MAY KNOW
MORE THAN SOME.

Steve says DID YOU EVER GET PAST THE
FACADE ON HIM, THOUGH?

Bill says YEAH, I THINK SO.
I THINK THERE WERE A
FEW OCCASIONS WHEN
OUR DISCUSSIONS RELATED TO
MATTERS TOTALLY UNRELATED
TO POLITICS, TO SOME OF HIS
FEELINGS ON OTHER ISSUES,
PERSONAL ISSUES
AND SO ON.
WE SHARED SOME OF
THOSE EXPERIENCES.
HE KNEW SOME OF THE
HISTORY OF MY OWN FAMILY.
I CAN'T SAY THAT
I KNEW THE REAL PIERRE
ELLIOTT TRUDEAU BECAUSE I'M
NOT SURE HOW MANY PEOPLE
REALLY DID KNOW THE REAL
PIERRE ELLIOTT TRUDEAU,
BUT I DID KNOW A MAN WHO
HAD A GREAT INTELLECT,
TOTALLY COMMITTED
TO CANADA.
ONE WHO INSPIRED
EITHER GREAT AFFECTION
OR ON OCCASION LESS
THAN GREAT AFFECTION.
THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT
YOU EITHER ADMIRED HIM
OR YOU TOTALLY
DISAGREED WITH HIM,
BUT I THINK A LOT OF
CANADIANS RESPECTED HIM
AS A LEADER AND I THINK WHAT
YOU'VE SEEN IN THE LAST DAY
IS A CLEAR INDICATION,
WHILE HE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
THEIR FIRST CHOICE
ON SOME ISSUES,
HE NONETHELESS
WAS RESPECTED
AS THE PRIME MINISTER
OF THIS COUNTRY.

Steve says PREMIER DAVIS, THANK YOU
FOR YOUR REMINISCENCES
ON PIERRE TRUDEAU.
WE APPRECIATE IT.

Bill says THANK YOU, STEVE.

(music plays)

The clip ends.

Back in studio, Ruth Grier, Mac Penney and Richard Mahoney sit at the table with Steve.

Steve says CANADA FIRST.
THAT IDEAL SUMMED UP THE
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHIES
OF BOTH PIERRE TRUDEAU
AND WILLIAM DAVIS.
THERE COULD BE NO
NATIONAL UNITY WITHOUT
THE OLD ANIMOSITIES OF
UPPER AND LOWER CANADA,
ONTARIO AND QUEBEC,
ENGLISH AND FRENCH BEING
BURIED FOREVER.
IT MUST BE FOR THE
GOOD OF THE COUNTRY.
LET'S ASK OUR PANEL OF
EXPERTS IN ONTARIO POLITICS
TO WHAT EXTENT THEY WERE
ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL.
HERE ARE FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER RUTH GRIER.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She wears a blue jacket over a light gray blouse.

Steve continues FROM GPC, THAT'S GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS,
THERE'S MAC PENNEY.

Mac is in his fifties, with short graying hair. He wears a black coat over a dark red turtle beck shirt.

Steve says AND FROM THE LAW FIRM
FRASER MILNER CASGRAIN,
THERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY.

Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He wears a black suit, gray shirt and maroon tie.

Steve continues ALMOST HARD TO KNOW WHERE
TO START WITH THIS KIND
OF THING, BUT I'M GOING
TO GUESS THAT YOU GOT
INTO POLITICS - PIERRE
TRUDEAU, I'M GUESSING,
YOU WERE ABOUT
EIGHT YEARS OLD.

Richard says I WAS NINE.

Steve says YOU WERE NINE YEARS
OLD WHEN HE BECOME PRIME
MINISTER AND NO DOUBT
YOU BECAME A LIBERAL
BECAUSE OF HIM.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Richard Mahoney, Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says WITHOUT QUESTION.
IN FACT AS A NINE-YEAR-OLD
KID, BELIEVE IT OR NOT,
I WAS ACTUALLY CAPTIVATED
BY TRUDEAU - I WATCHED THE
CONVENTION, OF ALL
THINGS, AND THAT WAS
THE FIRST LIGHTING OF
WHATEVER SORT OF FIRE
I HAD IN POLITICS.
I DIDN'T ACTUALLY GET
INVOLVED 'TIL MANY YEARS LATER,
BUT TRUDEAU SORT OF REALLY
BECAME A BIT OF A HERO
OF MINE GROWING UP AND
SORT OF WAS THE REASON
WHY I GOT INTO POLITICS.
HE'S THE ONE WHO MADE ME
BELIEVE THAT POLITICS WAS
SOMETHING WORTH DOING, THERE
WAS SOME NOBLE CALLING IN IT.

Steve says THERE WAS MORE THAN
JUST BEING THE ROCK STAR,
'CAUSE CERTAINLY THAT WAS
WHAT TURNED ON A LOT OF
CANADA IN 1968, WAS THAT
HE WAS JUST SO DIFFERENT.

Richard says RIGHT.
AND MY OTHER HERO
GROWING UP, OF COURSE,
WAS MICK JAGGER, SO THAT
MAY ACTUALLY GIVE SOME
CREDENCE TO
YOUR THEORY.
BUT, YEAH, I THINK IT WAS
MORE THAN THAT IN THE SENSE
THAT HE REALLY -
MY VISION OF CANADA,
WHAT I KNEW ABOUT CANADA,
WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT CANADA
GROWING UP IN MANY WAYS
WAS SHAPED BY WHAT
TRUDEAU TOLD US ABOUT.

Steve says YOU'RE DOING
HIM NOW, YOU KNOW THAT, EH?

Richard says AM I?

Steve says YOU'RE
DOING TRUDEAU NOW.

Richard says AM I?

Steve says YEAH, SURE, THAT'S YOU
KNOW THIS KIND OF THING.

[muttering]

Steve continues THAT'S A TRUDEAU THING.

Richard says I WOULD WISH TO
BE ABLE TO DO HIM,
BUT I MEAN THE WHOLE SORT
OF BILINGUAL CANADA,
ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF WAS
FRAMED FOR ME BY TRUDEAU
AND THE BELIEF THAT TWO
LANGUAGES AND MANY CULTURES
COULD LIVE UNDER ONE ROOF,
WHICH I STILL BELIEVE TODAY,
I GOT FROM TRUDEAU.

Steve says LET'S GO TO THE
FLIPSIDE OF THAT.
MY HUNCH IS THAT YOU, MAC,
GOT INTO POLITICS AS WELL
VERY MUCH BECAUSE OF PIERRE
TRUDEAU'S INFLUENCE ON
THE COUNTRY, BUT I'M ASSUMING
THAT IT WAS FOR COMPLETELY
THE OPPOSITE REASONS
THAT RICHARD DID.

The caption changes to "Mac Penney, Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says I'M NOT SURE I WOULD SAY
IT WAS FOR COMPLETELY
OPPOSITE REASONS.
I THINK THAT FOR TRUDEAU
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE
IN MY GENERATION DEFINED
THE WAY POLITICS WAS DONE.
I THINK THAT HE BECAME A
TOUCHSTONE FOR THE WAY
YOU MANAGED POLITICAL
ISSUES IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND I THINK FOR
BETTER OR FOR WORSE,
SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS
OF POLITICIANS,
YOU CAN SPEAK
OF IT THAT WAY,
HAVE NOT BEEN
ABLE TO DO THAT,
PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY
DIDN'T HAVE THAT UNIQUE -
THE UNIQUE CAPACITY, THE
UNIQUE ABILITIES THAT
HE BROUGHT TO
THE POSITION.
BUT CERTAINLY I THINK THERE
WAS A PERIOD THERE WERE
IF YOU DID POLITICS IN
CANADA, YOU WANTED TO DO IT
PIERRE TRUDEAU'S WAY.
NOW THAT INFLAMED A LOT OF
PEOPLE AND IRRITATED A LOT
OF PEOPLE, AND IT CERTAINLY
ALIENATED A WHOLE GROUP
OF PEOPLE, BUT I THINK IT
DEFINED FOR A LOT OF US
WHO WERE JUST BECOMING
POLITICALLY AWARE,
THE POTENTIAL FOR CIVIC
ACTION OR CIVIL ACTION
IN THIS COUNTRY.

Steve says DID YOU WORK ON
CAMPAIGNS AGAINST HIM?

Mac says NO, I NEVER DID.

Steve says YOU NEVER DID?

Mac says I NEVER DID, NO.

Steve says DID YOU, RUTH?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says OH WELL, YOU SEE, MY
ATTITUDE TO HIM IS COLOURED
BY THE FACT THAT MY HUSBAND
TERRY WAS A CANDIDATE
FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE '68
ELECTION AND WE'D BEEN -
I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG
HE'D BEEN NOMINATED.
HE'D BEEN WORKING AT IT
FOR OVER A YEAR AND
THEN SUDDENLY THIS PIERRE
TRUDEAU COMES ON THE SCENE
AND AFTER THE JUNE THE 24TH
SAINT-JEAN-BAPTISTE DAY,
YOU COULD FEEL THAT
ELECTION TURN AND TERRY LOST.
TERRY WON IN '72 AND SO
HE SERVED IN OTTAWA
WITH TRUDEAU BETWEEN
'72 AND '74,
SO I GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO
SEE HIM A BIT MORE CLOSELY
AND ONE COULDN'T HELP
BUT ADMIRE THE MAN.
BUT THE SORT OF ADULATION
OR - YOU KNOW,
HE WAS A POLITICAL
OPPONENT.
HE'D HELPED IN OUR DEFEAT
IN '68 AND THEN TERRY
WAS DEFEATED
AGAIN IN '74.
SO I CAME AT HIM
FROM, I GUESS,
A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE
THAN MY FRIENDS.

Steve says DID YOU
EVER MEET HIM?

Ruth says YES, INDEED, AND IN FACT
THE OPENING OF PARLIAMENT
IN '72, THERE WAS A HUGE
RECEPTION AFTER THE CEREMONIES
AND I WAS STUCK
WITH MY YOUNGEST SON,
A SEVEN-YEAR-OLD WHO WAS
BEING TRUCULENT AND SULKY.
HE DIDN'T WANT TO COME
WITH ME BUT I'D
NOWHERE TO LEAVE HIM.
SO WE'RE AT THIS HUGE
RECEPTION IN WHICH PATRICK
IS THE ONLY CHILD AND I
PARK MY SON ON A STAIRCASE
WHILE I GO AND GET
HIM A SOFT DRINK.
A MOB OF ADULTS AND I'M
COMING BACK WITH THE
SOFT DRINK AND SUDDENLY
TRUDEAU ENTERS THE ROOM,
AND THE CROWD SORT
OF PARKED BECAUSE
THE PRIME MINISTER
HAS ARRIVED.
HE LOOKS ACROSS THE ROOM
AND HE SEES THE ONE CHILD
IN THE ROOM AND HE MAKES
A BEELINE FOR MY SON.
AND CHEERS HIM UP AND
WE HAVE A LIBERAL FAN
IN THE FAMILY FOR QUITE
SOME TIME AFTERWARDS.

[laughing]

Steve says MUCH TO YOUR ETERNAL
REGRET, NO DOUBT.
THIS IS A BIT PRESUMPTUOUS
OF ME TO DO JUST
THE DAY AFTER HIS PASSING,
BUT LET'S TRY THIS ANYWAY,
AND I WANT TO GO TO
YOU ON THIS, RICHARD,
BECAUSE I CAN REMEMBER
FORMER PREMIER,
WHO WASN'T YET PREMIER,
DAVID PETERSON,
THEN LEADER OF THE
OPPOSITION IN ONTARIO,
CALLING PIERRE TRUDEAU AN
ALBATROSS AROUND MY NECK.
THERE WERE 15 YEARS
OF TRUDEAU PRIME MINISTER-SHIP,
BUT FOR MUCH OF
THAT TIME,
HE WAS VERY UNPOPULAR
AND NOT HELPING LIBERAL
FORTUNES IN ONTARIO.
AND I'M WONDERING IF YOU
CAN TALK ABOUT THE -
YOU KNOW, THE DIFFERENT
FEELINGS THAT LIBERALS
IN ONTARIO HAD BECAUSE AS
POPULAR AS HE SOMETIMES
WAS, HE WAS A REAL
PROBLEM FOR ONTARIO
LIBERALS GETTING ELECTED
A LOT OF THE TIME.

Richard says RIGHT.
IT'S NOT EASY, BECAUSE
AS I MENTIONED BEFORE,
HE WAS A BIT OF A HERO.
BUT A) NOT ONLY
WAS HE UNPOPULAR,
BUT B) THERE WAS A GENERAL
VIEW THAT IN MATTERS OF
POLITICS, ONTARIANS LIKE TO
HAVE A DIFFERENT PARTY
IN POWER PROVINCIALLY
THAN FEDERALLY.
SECONDLY, WHAT ENDED
HAPPENING PROVINCIALLY
IS THAT WHEN THE PROVINCIAL
ELECTION CYCLES SEEMED
TO ALWAYS SORT OF MAXIMIZE
THE BAD OF WHAT THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT WAS DOING,
WHEREAS THE FEDERAL
ELECTION CYCLE ODDLY ENOUGH
WAS CALLED IN A MUCH CLOSER
INTEREST TO THE FORTUNES
OF FEDERAL RE-ELECTION
FOR THE FEDERAL
LIBERAL PARTY.
BUT ABSOLUTELY A
HUGE DIFFICULTY
FOR THE PROVINCIAL
LIBERAL PARTY.
AS A RESULT, THERE WAS A
REAL SEPARATION IN BETWEEN
THOSE TWO PARTIES WHICH HAS
NEVER ACTUALLY TOTALLY
COME BACK THAT HAPPENED
DURING THE TRUDEAU ERA.

Ruth says THAT'S VERY INTERESTING
BECAUSE HE BROUGHT
A LOT OF PEOPLE TO POLITICS
FOR THE FIRST TIME.
I KNOW ALL SORTS,
PARTICULARLY WOMEN FRIENDS,
WHO BECAME INVOLVED IN
POLITICS BECAUSE OF THEIR
REGARD FOR TRUDEAU, AND
I WOULD HAVE THE SENSE
THAT THAT CARRIED OVER
INTO THE LIBERAL PARTY
PROVINCIALLY AS
WELL AS FEDERALLY.

Richard says WELL, IT PROBABLY DID IN
TERMS OF BRINGING PEOPLE IN,
BUT IN TERMS OF
BRINGING VOTERS IN,
YOU KNOW, IT WAS
A FRUSTRATION.
BUT I REALLY THINK THAT
ALL THE PEOPLE THAT
I'VE WORKED WITH OVER
THE LAST 20 YEARS
OF BEING INVOLVED IN
FEDERAL LIBERAL POLITICS,
I WOULD THINK ALMOST ALL
OF THEM WERE BROUGHT IN
BY TRUDEAU WHEN TRUDEAU
WAS PRIME MINISTER.

Ruth says PETERSON, AS WELL
AS BOB RAE, I GUESS,
SUFFERED THE POLITICAL
CONSEQUENCES
OF THE REPATRIATION OF THE
CONSTITUTION BECAUSE
BOTH MEECH AND
CHARLOTTETOWN, YOU KNOW,
FLOWED OUT OF THAT LEGACY,
WHICH COST THEM BOTH
I THINK DEARLY ELECTORALLY.

Richard says IT DID AND IN ANOTHER WAY
TRUDEAU WOULD HAVE HELPED
THEM IN A MUCH MORE
ABSTRACT SENSE IN THE SENSE
TO THE EXTENT THERE WAS A
CONSTITUENCY IN ONTARIO
THAT WANTED TO
REACH OUT TO QUEBEC.
I WOULD CREDIT PART OF
THAT TO WHAT THE VALUES
THAT TRUDEAU SORT OF
INSTILLED IN US GROWING UP.
OBVIOUSLY THERE WASN'T
QUITE ENOUGH OF THAT
TO GET SUPPORT FOR THINGS
LIKE CHARLOTTETOWN AND MEECH
IN A MASSIVE WAY.
BUT THE FACT THAT THERE WAS
SOME OPENNESS THAT WOULD
ALLOW SOMEONE LIKE
PETERSON TO GIVE UP
SENATE SEATS
IN ONTARIO.
I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT EVER
WOULD HAVE HAPPENED,
THAT THERE EVER WOULD HAVE
BEEN ANY VIEW IN ONTARIO
THAT QUEBEC SHOULD BE
ACCOMMODATED BUT FOR TRUDEAU.

Ruth say BUT ROBARTS, I
MEAN, THE TORIES,
ROBARTS AND DAVIS -

Mac interrupts and says CONFEDERATION TOMORROW IS
THE CONFERENCE THAT STARTED
THE WHOLE THING THAT
ACTUALLY I BELIEVE PREDATED -
WOULD HAVE SHORTLY
PREDATED TRUDEAU'S ARRIVAL.

Richard says YES.

Mac continues IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BEFORE
TRUDEAU AND EVEN
BEFORE TRUDEAU EVEN
ENTERED FEDERAL POLITICS.

Richard says THE B and B COMMISSION THAT
HAPPENED IN THE '60s.

Mac says YES, SO A LOT OF THAT
PREDATED Mr. TRUDEAU'S
ASCENSION TO REAL
PROMINENCE FEDERALLY.

Ruth says THERE WASN'T THE
PAROCHIALISM PROVINCIALLY
THAT THERE IS NOW TOWARDS
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Mac says NO, I THINK THERE'S A
DIFFERENCE IN THE TERMS
OF THE VISION OF THE
COUNTRY THAT TRUDEAU HAD.
I WOULD SAY FROM MY
PERSPECTIVE,
THE LAST PRIME MINISTER

MAYBE MULRONEY
IN A PECULIAR WAY TOO WHO
SAW A VERY STRONG CENTRAL
GOVERNMENT AS BEING
WHAT DEFINES CANADA.
I THINK THAT RICHARD MADE
A POINT IN AN EARLIER SHOW
THAT THERE'S NOW A VISION OF
THIS COUNTRY WHICH
IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED
TO THAT AND WHICH IS NOT
TRUDEAU'S VISION OF
THE COUNTRY AT ALL,
I DON'T THINK, WHICH IS
A VISION OF VERY STRONG
PROVINCES AND
REGIONAL BLOCKS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Steve says YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT
TRUDEAU WITHOUT TALKING
ABOUT BILINGUALISM AND
YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT
BILINGUALISM AS IT RELATES
TO ONTARIO HISTORY WITHOUT
MENTIONING THE FACT THAT
HE TRIED OVER AND OVER
AND OVER TO GET BILL DAVIS TO
DECLARE ONTARIO OFFICIALLY
BILINGUAL WITHOUT ANY
SUCCESS AT ALL AND THAT
WAS A CONSTANT SORE POINT
BETWEEN THE TWO MEN.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A
BIT BECAUSE TRUDEAU WENT
AT HIM A LOT AND DAVIS
ALWAYS WITHSTOOD IT.
WHO KNEW ONTARIO BETTER AND
THEREFORE WHICH
WAS THE BETTER WAY TO GO?

Mac says ONE OF BILL DAVIS' LAST
BIG DECISIONS
AS PREMIER WAS ON
CATHOLIC SCHOOL FUNDING,
I THINK AS WE REMEMBER, AND
THERE'S A VERY FAMOUS
STORY AND I DON'T
KNOW HOW TRUE IT IS.
WHEN DAVIS ENTERED THE
CABINET TO TELL THEM
THAT THAT AFTERNOON THIS
WAS BEING ANNOUNCED,
HE STARTED BY SAYING,
GENTLEMEN, LADIES,
WE HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT
HISTORIC DECISION
TO ANNOUNCE TODAY AND
I'M DECLARING ONTARIO
OFFICIALLY BILINGUAL, AND
APPARENTLY EVERYONE
JUST WENT PALE AND THERE
WAS AN AWFUL SILENCE.
AND THEN HE SAID, NO,
NO, JUST I'M JOKING.
WE JUST PULL FUNDING
FOR SEPARATE SCHOOL.
OH, THANK GOD!

[laughing]

Mac continues THANK GOD.
SO Mr. DAVIS HAD A VERY
GOOD SENSE OF WHERE ONTARIO
WAS AND, YOU KNOW, TO
THIS DAY I THINK THE ONLY
OFFICIALLY BILINGUAL
PROVINCE IN CANADA
IS THE PROVINCE OF
NEW BRUNSWICK.

Ruth says PEOPLE BECAME BILINGUAL IN
ONTARIO BECAUSE OF THAT POLICY,
WHETHER IT'S THE
LEGACY OF - YOU KNOW,
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT
FRENCH IMMERSION AND
MY GRANDCHILDREN IN
FRENCH IMMERSION SCHOOL.
SO WHILE THE GOVERNMENT
DIDN'T ACCEPT IT,
I THINK A LOT MORE
PEOPLE IN ONTARIO -

Richard says NOT ONLY ONTARIO
BUT CALGARY
ACTUALLY HAS TONS OF
FRENCH IMMERSION SCHOOLS.

Mac says THIS WAS, YOU KNOW,
THE DAVIS APPROACH
IS THAT IF YOU COULD DO
SOMETHING INDIRECTLY,
IF YOU COULD DO IT
BY GOING AROUND IT,
WHY GO RIGHT INTO IT.

Richard says IN RETIREMENT, BUT AS
I MENTIONED BEFORE,
I WAS NOT HIS GREATEST
FAN WHEN HE WAS PREMIER.
I REMEMBER A BY-ELECTION,
I THINK IT WAS THEN
THE RIDING OF CARLETON EAST,
WHERE THEY THUMPED US
ON THE ISSUE OF ACCUSING I
THINK THE THEN PROVINCIAL
LIBERAL LEADER STUART
SMITH OF BEING A CLOSET
OFFICIAL BILINGUALIST.

Steve says WHICH WAS A
SIN, OF COURSE.

Richard continues OF COURSE, AND ESPECIALLY
IN CARLETON EAST,
WHICH IS UP IN
THE OTTAWA AREA,
AND USING THE FEDERAL
LIBERAL RECORD ON
THAT AS AGAINST THE
PROVINCIAL LIBERALS.

Steve says BUT Mr. TRUDEAU MUST HAVE
UNDERSTOOD ONTARIO PRETTY WELL
BECAUSE WHEN HE GOT A
LOT OF SEATS IN ONTARIO,
HE WON ELECTIONS.
WHEN HE DIDN'T WIN A
LOT OF SEATS IN -
BECAUSE HE NEVER DID
VERY WELL IN THE WEST.
HE ALWAYS DID EXTREMELY
WELL IN THE QUEBEC,
AND IT WAS ONTARIO THAT
DECIDED WHETHER PIERRE
TRUDEAU WAS GOING TO BE
PRIME MINISTER OR NOT,
OR IF HE'D HAVE A
MAJORITY OR NOT.
AND IN 1979, THIS
PROVINCE DESERTED HIM
AND JOE CLARK WON.
IN 1972, THIS PROVINCE
DESERTED HIM AND
IT WAS A MINORITY
GOVERNMENT.

Ruth says IT WAS A
MINORITY.

Steve says SO HE MUST HAVE HAD A
SENSE ABOUT WHAT PLAYED
HERE AND WHAT DIDN'T.

Richard says RIGHT.
I THINK THAT I GUESS
IT'S ONE THING AND SO
IT'S THE FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL
THING AGAIN.
YOU LOOK TO YOUR NATIONAL
LEADER FOR SOMEONE WHO CAN
BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER,
WHO CAN INSPIRE CERTAIN VALUES,
AND YOU LOOK TO
YOUR PROVINCIAL PREMIER
FOR MAYBE SOMETHING
A BIT DIFFERENT
AND A LITTLE
CLOSER TO HOME.
AND ONTARIANS,
LIKE QUEBECERS,
COULD MAKE A DIFFERENT
CHOICE POLITICALLY
PROVINCIALLY THAN
THEY DID FEDERALLY.
AND IN TRUDEAU AND DAVIS,
THEY HAD TWO DIFFERENT
CHOICES, ALTHOUGH
OVER TIME,
THOSE TWO CHOICES WEREN'T
SO FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT,
WERE THEY?

Steve says IS THERE A CORE OF
TRUDEAU LIBERALS STILL
IN THE POPULATION HERE
IN ONTARIO THAT ACTUALLY
VOTES FOR MIKE HARRIS?

Ruth says VOTES
FOR MIKE HARRIS?

Mac says I DON'T KNOW IF THEY
DO IT AND ADMIT IT,
BUT I SUSPECT
THERE ARE.
I SUSPECT THERE ARE.

Ruth says ARE YOU SAYING THAT
TRUDEAU LIBERALS
ARE ESSENTIALLY
INDIVIDUALISTS?
I MEAN, YOU HAVE THE
CHARTER OF RIGHTS.
YOU HAVE THIS WHOLE CONCEPT
OF RIGHTS WHICH IS VERY MUCH
THE MODERN TORIES
AND ALLIANCE APPROACH.

Richard says I WOULD THINK THE CORE OF
TRUDEAU LIBERALS EITHER
VOTE LIBERAL OR SOME MAY
EVEN STILL VOTE -
MIGHT EVEN VOTE
NEW DEMOCRAT.
I WOULDN'T THINK THERE'S
MANY WHO VOTE FOR HARRIS.

Steve says AT LEAST YOU'RE
PRAYING THAT'S THE CASE.

Richard laughs and says WELL, YEAH.
AND THEN THERE
ARE MANY OF THEM,
BUT OBVIOUSLY
NOT QUITE ENOUGH.

Mac interrupts and says I WAS JUST THINKING OF THE
EXTREMELY BROAD APPEAL
OF THE CURRENT
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.
THE BIG TENT
APPROACH TO POLITICS.

Steve says AND ON THAT NOTE
OF UNANIMITY, I WAS GOING TO SAY.

Ruth says NO, NO.

Steve says THANKS TO THE THREE OF YOU
FOR GOING DOWN MEMORY LANE
HERE ON YOUR RECOLLECTIONS
OF PIERRE TRUDEAU
ON THIS THE DAY AFTER
HIS PASSING AWAY.
MY THANKS TO THE
THREE OF YOU.
AND THAT'S IT FOR 4TH
READING FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Researcher, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ted Ambrose.

CEP-SCEP logo.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2000, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #205