Transcript: Show #204 | Sep 24, 2000

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON 4th
READING, BATTLE LINES.

A clip shows the Ontario Legislature in session.

Steve says PARTIES PREPARE TO GO ON THE
ATTACK AS MPPs HEAD BACK
TO QUEEN'S PARK.

(music plays)

Steve and three guests sit at a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark gray coat over a black shirt.

Steve says HI EVERYBODY, I'M STEVE
PAIKIN AND WELCOME TO THIS
EDITION OF
4th READING.
THEY ARE CHOMPING
AT THE BIT.
MPPs HAVE SPENT MONTHS
POURING OVER POLLS,
CONDUCTING FOCUS GROUPS,
AND JUST GENERALLY HAVING
THEIR EARS BENT BY
THE FOLKS BACK HOME.
NOW, THEY'RE IN ATTACK MODE
SHARPENING THEIR RHETORICAL
SKILLS FOR THE RETURN OF
THE LEGISLATURE ON MONDAY.
MIKE HARRIS IS WORKING
ON A BRAND NEW VISION FOR
ONTARIO, BUT THE OPPOSITION
PARTIES SMELL BLOOD OVER
THE WALKERTON
WATER DISASTER.
HERE'S A SNEAK PREVIEW OF
WHAT THE LEADERS INTEND TO
DISH UP THIS FALL.

Now, a clip shows Premier Mike Harris in a conference. Harris is in his mid-fifties, clean-shaven with short white hair. He wears a dark blue polo shirt.

He says THINGS YOU CAN EXPECT TO SEE
ACTION ON THIS FALL, THINGS
THAT WE ARE KNOWN FOR, THAT
WE ARE STILL IMPLEMENTING
OUR BLUEPRINT COMMITMENTS.
SMALLER, MORE
EFFICIENT GOVERNMENT.
JUSTICE ISSUES.
THERE ARE A NUMBER WE
COMMITTED TO IN THE
BLUEPRINT THAT WE PLAN
TO BRING FORWARD IN THE
LEGISLATURE THIS FALL.
THE HEALTH, CONTINUING
WITH OUR REFORMS.

In a new clip, Dalton McGuinty speaks in a press conference. McGuinty is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair. He wears a checked gray shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Dalton McGuinty, Ontario Liberal Leader."

He says WE'VE RECEIVED VERY CLEAR
MARCHING ORDERS THIS SUMMER.
THEY TOLD US TO ASSEMBLE AT
QUEEN'S PARK AND FIGHT FOR
THOSE THINGS THEY WANT
TO BE ABLE TO COUNT ON.
LIKE CLEAN AIR, AND CLEAN
WATER, STABILITY IN OUR
SCHOOLS, AND
GOOD HEALTHCARE.

Now, Howard Hampton stands outside Queen's Park. Hampton is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short blond hair. He wears a light blue shirt.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Howard Hampton, Ontario NDP Leader."

To the camera, he says A NUMBER OF THE SKELETONS
ARE STARTING TO EMERGE.
GOVERNMENT SAYS THEY WANT TO
IMPROVE EDUCATION, YET THEY
CONTINUALLY BEAT UP AND
VILIFY OUR TEACHERS.
YOU CAN'T IMPROVE EDUCATION
IF YOU ARE CONTINUALLY
UNDERMINING THE WORK
THE TEACHERS DO.
HEALTHCARE.
I THINK IT'S OBVIOUS NOW
THIS IS A GOVERNMENT THAT
DRAMATICALLY CUT BACK ON
HEALTHCARE, PUT A NUMBER OF
ONTARIO CITIZENS AT RISK,
AND NOW WE'RE FINDING
BASICALLY ALL OF THEIR
STRATEGIES HAVEN'T WORKED.
THEY'RE HAVING TO ADMIT THAT
AND PUT THE MONEY BACK INTO
THE SYSTEM.
SO I THINK THAT'S
THE CONTEXT.

The clips end.

Back in studio, Steve says OKAY LET'S HAVE OUR PANEL
GAZE INTO THEIR CRYSTAL
BALLS FOR THEIR TAKE ON
WHAT'S ON THE QUEEN'S PARK
RADAR SCREEN.
HERE THEY ARE.
THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE
ONTARIO LIBERALS, THERE'S
RICHARD MAHONEY FROM THE LAW
FIRM FRASER MILNER CASGRAIN.

Richard Mahoney is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short white hair. He wears a black suit, blue shirt and mustard tie.

Steve continues AND RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP ENVIRONMENT MINISTER,
HEALTH MINISTER, ANYTHING
ELSE I'M FORGETTING?

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She wears glasses, a cherry jacket over a white shirt and a patterned scarf.

Ruth says MINISTER RESPONSIBLE
FOR THE GTA.

Steve says THANK YOU
VERY MUCH, Mrs. GRIER.
AND FROM GPC, GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS, THERE'S
MAC PENNEY, A LONG TIME
CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST.

Mac is in his fifties, with short graying hair. He wears a black coat over a dark blue shirt and patterned black tie.

Steve continues MAC, I'M GOING TO START
WITH YOU, OF COURSE.
THE CONSERVATIVES ARE
PROMISING TO BE MUCH TOUGHER
ON ENVIRONMENTAL
ISSUES THIS SESSION.
THEY'RE TALKING
ABOUT HIGHER FINES.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT
THAT SWAT TEAM AGAIN,
ENVIRONMENTAL SWAT TEAM.
I THINK THIS MIGHT BE THE
THIRD TIME THEY'VE ANNOUNCED
THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
DOES THIS GOVERNMENT A,
HAVE ANY CREDIBILITY ON THE
ENVIRONMENT ANYMORE, AND B,
WHEN THEY MAKE THESE KINDS
OF ANNOUNCEMENTS, DO YOU
SUSPECT THEY REALLY MEAN TO
DO THEM THIS TIME?

Ruth says WHY ARE YOU
ASKING MAC THAT?

[laughing]

Steve says BECAUSE I…
I THOUGHT HE MIGHT
ACTUALLY WANT TO SPEAK
FOR THE GOVERNMENT
ON THIS ONE.

Richard says CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Mac Penney, Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says OH YEAH, I THOUGHT WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT TRUCKERS?
NO, I THINK THE GOVERNMENT
KNOWS THAT IT HAS A
CREDIBILITY PROBLEM
ON THE ENVIRONMENT.
I THINK WE WILL BE
WHISTLING OUR WAY PAST MANY
A POLITICAL GRAVEYARD TO
SAY THAT WASN'T THE CASE.
I THINK THE MINISTER OF THE
ENVIRONMENT KNOWS THERE'S A
CHALLENGE THERE, BOTH IN
TERMS OF PROGRAM DELIVERY
AND PUBLIC CREDIBILITY, AND
THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE
TO ADDRESS IT.

Steve says AND GIVEN THAT FOR THE LAST FIVE
YEARS WE'VE BEEN HEARING
HEALTH AND EDUCATION, HEALTH
AND EDUCATION, HEALTH AND
EDUCATION FROM YOU GUYS,
I WAS, I GUESS, MODESTLY
SURPRISED WHEN I HEARD
Mr. MCGUINTY SAY THIS PAST
COUPLE OF WEEKS,
ENVIRONMENT, OUR NUMBER ONE
CONCERN GOING INTO
THE FALL SESSION.

Steve looks at Richard and says IS HE SAYING THAT BECAUSE
HE'S SAYING THAT?

Steve points to Mac.

A caption reads "Richard Mahoney, Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says UM, WELL, OBVIOUSLY PART OF
THE REASON WHY ENVIRONMENT IS
NOW FOREMOST IS BECAUSE
OF WHAT HAPPENED AT
WALKERTON LAST YEAR.
BUT I'VE KNOWN DALTON
MCGUINTY FOR A NUMBER OF
YEARS, AND EVEN BEFORE HE
RAN FOR LEADER HE TALKED
ABOUT ENVIRONMENT AS ONE
OF THE ISSUES HE ACTUALLY
CARED ABOUT, THAT BROUGHT
HIM INTO PUBLIC LIFE.
AND WE TRIED TO TALK ABOUT
IT A BIT IN THE LAST
CAMPAIGN, ALTHOUGH IT DID
FALL BETWEEN THE HEALTHCARE,
EDUCATION AND EVERY OTHER
CRACK THAT WAS HAPPENING
OUT THERE.
THE SECOND THING I THINK
YOU'LL PROBABLY SEE IS
EDUCATION BEING AS
PROMINENT, OR EVEN MORE
PROMINENT AN ISSUE FOR THE
LIBERALS AS HEALTHCARE.
ON HEALTHCARE, I THINK,
THERE ARE SO MANY JOBS.
ONE OF THE FIRST JOBS IS TO
MAKE SURE THE GOVERNMENT,
WHICH IS NOW AWASH IN NEW,
OR WILL BE AWASH IN NEW
FEDERAL DOLLARS FLOWING
IN, AN EXTRA 8 BILLION DOLLARS IN
ONTARIO, ACTUALLY SPENDS
THAT MONEY ON HEALTHCARE.

Mac interrupts and says PRIED FROM YOUR
COLD DEAD HAND.

(mac laughs)

Richard continues BUT IN EDUCATION, I THINK
WHAT THE PROBLEM WITH
EDUCATION, EDUCATION IS
BEING STARVED A LITTLE BIT
BY THE HEALTHCARE MONSTER.
HEALTHCARE NOW TAKES
UP 45 PERCENT OF THE
PROVINCIAL BUDGET.
AND THOSE TRANSFERS ARE
ALSO SUPPOSED TO GO TO
EDUCATION, TOO, AND I THINK
EDUCATION ENDS UP BEING A
LITTLE BIT THE POOR SISTER
IN THE WARS FOR DOLLARS
AROUND THE CABINET TABLE.

Steve says JUST AS I ASKED MAC ABOUT
THE ENVIRONMENT, I'M NOT
GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT
THAT, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU
ABOUT MIKE HARRIS'
VISION THING.
YOU KNOW WHEN THE TORIES HAD
THEIR RETREAT EARLIER THIS
YEAR, A FEW WEEKS AGO, THEY
TALKED ABOUT THE NEED TO DO
SOME VISIONING BECAUSE THEY
HADN'T DONE IT IN SEVEN OR
EIGHT YEARS, AND IT WAS
TIME THEY GET BACK TO IT.
NOW, WHEN YOU HEAR
THAT WHAT DO YOU THINK?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier, former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I THINK SOME PR CONSULTANT
HAS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY
TO DO A VISIONING
EXERCISE WITH CAUCUS.
IF THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE
GOING TO DO, I WAS VERY
INTERESTED IN YOUR CLIP
THAT MIKE HARRIS SAID THE
PRIORITIES WERE GOING TO
BE SMALLER GOVERNMENT.
IF HE'S STILL SAYING THAT,
THEN THAT'S THE VISION THAT
THEY BEGAN WITH, AND THAT'S
THE VISION THAT BROUGHT US
WALKERTON AND CUTBACKS
IN HEALTH AND EDUCATION.
SO I THINK THEY MAY TRY THE
VISIONING, BUT YOU DIDN'T
WANT ME TO TALK ABOUT THE
ENVIRONMENT, I HAVE TO SAY
IN TERMS OF THE PRIORITIES,
THAT'S GOING TO BE WHERE THE
NEW DEMOCRATS, LOOKING FOR A
SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT ARE
GOING TO BE FOCUSSING.
AND BECAUSE IT'S IN A WAY
BECOME THE TEMPLATE FOR
SMALLER GOVERNMENT,
CUTBACKS, LESS ENFORCEMENT,
AND THE SWAT TEAM THAT WAS
ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK IS ONLY
HALF WHAT WAS CONTEMPLATED
AND IS NOT BACKED UP BY
THE ENFORCEMENT, THE
LABORATORIES, THE LAWYERS,
THAT WILL MAKE IN
FACT CHARGES STICK.

Mac says JUST TO RUTH'S POINT,
THE JURY IS STILL OUT ON
WALKERTON, WHETHER OR NOT...

Steve says ACTUALLY, THE JURY
STARTS SITTING NEXT MONTH.

Mac says AND WILL BE OUT FOR A
WHILE, AND THEN WE'LL FIND OUT.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN SAY
AT THIS TIME THERE WAS
ANYTHING IN TERMS OF WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT DID IN
RESTRUCTURING THAT
RESULTED IN WALKERTON.
LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
I THINK THERE IS, IN
TERMS OF RESTRUCTURING
GOVERNMENT, IT'S A
CONTINUING THEME, AND A
POLICY THIS GOVERNMENT HAS
PURSUED, AND I THINK THERE
ARE SOME RESTRUCTURING
INITIATIVES TO BE DONE
INTERNALLY IN THE
GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WILL
LIKELY PURSUE OVER
THE NEXT YEAR.

Steve says ONCE THAT INQUIRY STARTS
HOLDING HEARING, AND THERE
ARE, I BELIEVE... I WROTE THE
NUMBER DOWN HERE SOMEWHERE...
40-SOME ODD, I THINK IT'S
43 GROUPS THAT HAVE GOT
STANDING BEFORE THAT
INQUIRY, IS THAT NOT GOING
TO CAST, I DON'T WANT
TO SAY A PALL FOR THE
GOVERNMENT, BUT WILL IT NOT
SO DOMINATE EVERYTHING THAT
HAPPENS IN THE NEXT SESSION
THAT ALL THESE OTHER
ANNOUNCEMENTS THAT THEY HOPE
TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT WITH
ARE GOING TO BE IRRELEVANT?

Mac says I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION,
STEVE, THAT IT'S GOING TO
BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR
ANYONE TO IGNORE THE
ELEPHANT IN THE
LIVING ROOM.
I THINK THE WALKERTON
INQUIRY WILL BE A MAJOR
POLITICAL EVENT, AND A MAJOR
JUDICIAL EVENT IN ONTARIO.
AND THERE'S NO QUESTION, AS
THE INQUIRY MOVES FORWARD,
IT WILL PROVIDE
POLITICAL FODDER FOR
THE OPPOSITION PARTIES.
WE ALL HAVE BEEN IN
OPPOSITION AT ONE TIME OR
ANOTHER, AND THE JOB OF
THE OPPOSITION IS TO RAISE
THESE ISSUES IN THE HOUSE.

Ruth says THE GOVERNMENT'S
ANSWER WILL ALWAYS BE WAIT
FOR THE INQUIRY,
WAIT FOR THE INQUIRY.

Mac continues TO SOME DEGREE, THE
GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE
TO GIVE THAT ANSWER.

Richard says THEY WILL HAVE TO
GIVE THAT ANSWER, BUT I
DON'T THINK THEY'LL BE ABLE
TO AFFORD TO DO THAT ON
ENVIRONMENTAL MATTERS
BECAUSE WHAT I DO BELIEVE
IS THERE IS SOMETHING
IN WHAT RUTH SAID.
I BELIEVE WALKERTON HAS
BECOME A SYMBOL OF WHAT IS
WRONG WITH THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.
THAT WAS THE
ACTUAL HUMAN COST.
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN THINGS
PEOPLE AT HOME ACTUALLY THINK
THEY BENEFITED FROM THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION, BUT THE
COST OF THE REVOLUTION WAS
LESS ENFORCEMENT, LAXER
STANDARDS, NOT HAVING
THE APPROPRIATE SORT OF
GUIDELINES IN PLACE THAT
ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN.
SO WHATEVER THE JUDGE FINDS
IN TERMS OF HIS EVENTUAL
FINDINGS OF INQUIRY, I
BELIEVE WALKERTON IS
ALREADY A SYMBOL OF
WHAT WENT WRONG.

Mac says AND I THINK THAT'S A
SAMPLE OF WHAT THE GOVERNMENT
CAN EXPECT FOR THE DURATION
OF THE WALKERTON INQUIRY
IN THE HOUSE.
I DON'T THINK IT'LL
BE THAT ARTICULATE.
AND I UNDERSTAND Mr.
HAMPTON'S OUT BUYING A
NEOPRENE SUIT, BUT I THINK
THAT'S THE SORT OF THING
WE CAN EXPECT.

Steve says MOVING RIGHT ALONG
FROM THAT LITTLE FASHION
TIP THERE FROM Mr. PENNEY,
EVEN IN THESE BOOMING
ECONOMIC TIMES, THERE'S
ANOTHER ISSUE THAT JUST
NEVER SEEMS TO GO AWAY,
AND THAT IS THE ISSUE
OF HOMELESSNESS.
PROVINCIAL AND FEDERAL
HOUSING MINISTERS MET THIS
WEEK TO WRESTLE WITH THE
ISSUE OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
FROM 1990 TO '95, 15,000
PUBLICLY ASSISTED HOUSING
UNITS WERE CREATED
IN ONTARIO.
SINCE THEN, JUST A
FRACTION OF THAT.
THE CONSERVATIVES SAY THE
PRIVATE SECTOR CAN STILL BE
COAXED INTO DOING THE JOB.
CRITICS CALL THE
GOVERNMENT'S POLICY
A DISMAL FAILURE.

A clip shows protestors fighting with the police.

The protestors shout SHAME,
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!

Steve says ONTARIANS CERTAINLY
REMEMBER THESE VIOLENT
IMAGES FROM LAST JUNE.
WHAT YOU MAY HAVE FORGOTTEN
BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE
IS THAT THE EXPLOSION
HAPPENED BECAUSE OF
ANGER OVER HOMELESSNESS.

Fast clips show two men speaking to the journalists.

Steve says THIS WEEK, PROVINCIAL
MINISTERS MET WITH THE
FEDERAL HOUSING MINISTER TO
SEE WHAT THEY COULD ALL DO
ABOUT SOCIALLY-ASSISTED
HOUSING.

A clip shows Tony Clement talking to the journalists. Clement is in his forties, clean-shaven with shorts black hair. He wears glasses, a black suit, white shirt and patterned tie.

A caption on screen reads "Tony Clement, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing."

He says IF THERE IS GOING TO BE ANY
PUBLIC POLICY IN THIS AREA,
IT'S TO SUBSIDIZE THE TENANT
WHO NEEDS THE HELP THROUGH
RENT-GEARED INCOME PLANS.
AND WE'VE MADE AN
ANNOUNCEMENT LATE LAST YEAR
WHERE AN ADDITIONAL 10,000
ONTARIO FAMILIES HAVE
ACCESS TO RGI, RENT
GEARED TO INCOME.
SO THAT'S BEEN OUR EMPHASIS.
AND OUR POINT OF VIEW IS,
LOOK, WE WANT TO SEE THIS BUILT,
BUT IT HAS TO BE BUILT IN
A WAY THAT'S SUSTAINABLE.

A clip shows a panoramic view of a building.

Steve says AT THE MOMENT, IT
LOOKS AS IF THE JOB OF
KEEPING IT SUSTAINABLE
BELONGS TO EACH CITY
AND TOWN IN ONTARIO.
IN THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT'S
LAST TERM, THE PROVINCE
DOWNLOADED THE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR SOCIAL
HOUSING TO THE
MUNICIPALITIES.

Now, a slate appears on screen.

Steve reads the slate and says AS OF JANUARY, THEY'RE ON
THE HOOK FOR MORE THAN
200,000 UNITS, WHILE THE
PROVINCE CONTINUES TO
PROVIDE RENT SUBSIDIES.

In a new clip, a man in his mid-forties, with short white hair and a gray moustache speaks to the camera. He wears a light blue shirt.

A caption reads "Jack Layton, Federation of Canadian Municipalities."

He says THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
HAS CLEARLY STATED IN
ONTARIO THAT THEY ARE NOT
GOING TO BE INVOLVED.
AND THEY ARE POINTING THE
FINGER AT MUNICIPALITIES
SAYING WE SHOULD
LOWER TAXES AND SO ON.
WE HAVE CHANGED OUR TAX
REGIME EXACTLY AS THEY HAVE
ALLOWED US TO DO, BUT THEY
DIDN'T DO IT CORRECTLY.
SO THE PRIVATE INVESTORS
ARE NOT COMING FORWARD.

A clip shows the façade of a building.

Steve says SO WHO'S GOING
TO BUILD NEW HOUSING?
PROVINCE IS RELYING ON
PRIVATE DEVELOPERS.
LAST YEAR, THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT INTRODUCED A
GRANT SCHEME GIVING
DEVELOPERS A 2,000 DOLLARS BREAK
FOR EVERY AFFORDABLE RENTAL
HOUSING UNIT THEY CONSTRUCTED.

In a new clip, Clement says WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THE
CLIMATE IS RIGHT SO IT DOES
MAKE SENSE TO BUILD
THAT KIND OF HOUSING.
AND WE'VE GOT TO HAVE THE
RIGHT KIND OF BUILDERS IN
ONTARIO THAT KNOW HOW TO
ASSESS THE RISK AND TO
BUILD THAT KIND OF HOUSING.
SO WE'VE GOT
SOME WORK TO DO.

Steve says THE HOUSING
MINISTER'S PLEDGE TO LOOK
AT TAXES AND DEVELOPMENT
CHARGES, AMONG OTHER THINGS.
DEVELOPERS SAY
THAT'S THE WAY TO GO.

Now, Neil Rodgers stands outside a building. Rodgers is in his forties, with short graying hair. He wears a dark blue suit, white shirt and patterned blue tie.

A caption on screen reads "Neil Rodgers, Director of Policy, Urban Development Institute."

He says A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO
WITH TAXES AT PROVINCIAL
AND FEDERAL LEVELS.
SO FOR THE DEVELOPMENT
COMMUNITY TO GET REALLY
EXCITED ABOUT THIS, AND
STARTING TO BUILD THESE
TYPES OF PROJECTS, THERE'S
GOING TO HAVE TO BE SOME
FINANCIAL INCENTIVES
GIVEN THEIR WAY.

Steve says BUT BOTH THE
GOVERNMENT AND ITS CRITICS
ADMIT THAT HASN'T
WORKED SO FAR.

In a new clip, Dave Caplan speaks at his office.
Caplan is in his late thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He wears glasses, a black suit, blue shirt and patterned tie.

A caption on screen reads "Dave Caplan, MPP, Liberal Housing Critic."

He says THEY'RE SAYING THE PRIVATE
SECTOR WILL COME TO THE
TABLE, BUT EVEN THEIR OWN
EXPERTS HAVE TOLD THEM
THAT'S NOT THE CASE.
THEY KNOW IT'S NOT
GOING TO HAPPEN.
I REMEMBER TONY CLEMENT WENT
TO THE DEVELOPERS AND HE
WHINED AT THEM WHY THEY'RE
NOT, AND THEY SAID THERE'S
NO BUSINESS CASE TO DO IT.
SO I DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS
GUY IS COMING FROM BECAUSE
EVERY ACTION THAT THE
HARRIS GOVERNMENT HAS EVER
TAKEN WHEN IT COMES TO
HOUSING HAS BEEN TOTALLY
CONTRARY TO CREATING
NEW HOUSING SUPPLY.

Now, Michael Shapcott appears. Shapcott is in his forties, with receding light brown hair and goatee. He wears a checkered white and blue shirt.

A caption on screen reads "Michael Shapcott, National Housing and Homelessness Network."

He says A WHOLE SERIES OF LAWS
HAVE BEEN CHANGED.
MORE RECENTLY, THEY PROVIDED
DIRECT CASH INCENTIVES TO
PRIVATE BUILDERS TO
BUILD, RENT SUPPLEMENTS,
THEY'VE WAVED THE
PROVINCIAL SALES TAX.
THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT HAS
DONE EVERYTHING THAT A
GOVERNMENT COULD POSSIBLY
DO TO ENCOURAGE THE PRIVATE
SECTOR TO BUILD AFFORDABLE
RENTAL HOUSING, AND THE
PRIVATE SECTOR
HASN'T BUILT IT.
THERE'S NOT A SINGLE UNIT
IN TORONTO OR ACROSS THE
PROVINCE THAT'S BEEN BUILT
IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

Steve says CLEMENT BELIEVES
OTTAWA WILL MOVE SOON.

In a clip, Clement says KEEPING IN MIND THERE'S A
FEDERAL ELECTION COMING,
I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TO
WAIT UNTIL NEXT SEPTEMBER,
LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY.

The clips end.

Back in studio, Steve says ALL RIGHT, LET'S ASK THE
MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR HOUSING
IN ONTARIO JUST HOW HE
EXPECTS TO PRY THOSE
FEDERAL FUNDS LOOSE.
HERE'S TONY CLEMENT, THE
MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS AND HOUSING, AND
THE CONSERVATIVE MPP FOR
BRAMPTON WEST MISSISSAUGA.
AS ALWAYS, WELCOME
TO OUR FOUR, TONY.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE.

Tony wears a black blazer over a white shirt and yellow patterned tie.

He says NICE TO BE BACK.

Steve says OK, YOU DID POINT OUT THERE IS
A FEDERAL ELECTION LOOMING.
DO YOU THINK THAT WILL MAKE
IT CONSIDERABLY EASIER FOR
YOU TO GET SOME MONEY OUT
OF OTTAWA FOR SOME OF THE
THINGS WE JUST TALKED ABOUT
IN THE BACKGROUND PIECE?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Tony Clement, Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing."

He says WELL, THAT AND A
COMBINATION, THE BEST
HEADLINE IN FREDERICTON
WHEN WE HAD OUR HOUSING
MINISTERS FORUM IN ONE OF
THE PAPERS IN THE MORNING
WAS 12 BILLION DOLLARS SURPLUS
ANTICIPATED FOR THIS YEAR,
AND A COMBINATION OF THOSE
TWO THINGS, I THINK, DOES
COMPEL THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT TO BE PART
OF THE SOLUTION.
AND I GUESS MY QUESTION TO
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS
THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD
POSITIONING BY MINISTER
GAGLIANO ON BEHALF OF
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
WE HAVE TO GET BEYOND
POSITIONING AND GET TOWARDS
SOME SOLUTIONS THAT
IN MY VIEW HAVE TO BE
LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS.

Steve says LET ME GET TO FIRST
PRINCIPLES WITH YOU.
DO YOU BELIEVE THIS
PROVINCE NEEDS MORE
SOCIALLY-ASSISTED HOUSING?

Tony says I THINK THIS PROVINCE NEEDS
MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
DOES IT HAVE TO BE
BUILT BY GOVERNMENTS,
BRICKS AND MORTAR?
FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, BASED
ON THE HISTORY OF ONTARIO,
I DON'T THINK THAT HAS TO
BE THE CASE, IF WE CAN GET
THE PRIVATE SECTOR BACK
INTO THE BUSINESS OF
BUILDING THIS KIND
OF SOCIAL HOUSING.

Steve says WOULD YOU AGREE THAT IN THE
LAST FIVE YEARS YOU HAVE
BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL IN
GETTING THAT TO HAPPEN?

Tony says I WOULD AGREE THAT IN THE
LAST FIVE YEARS IT HAS BEEN
VERY SLOW ON THE PICK-UP.
THERE ARE SOME SIGNS
THAT THERE IS A BIT OF
ACCELERATING MOMENTUM.
ARE WE WHERE WE
WANT TO BE YET?
NO, WE'RE NOT.
AND THAT MEANS WE HAVE
TO DO SOME CHANGES.

Steve says IF YOU'RE NOT HAPPY WITH
THE PACE OF PROGRESS DURING
THE MOST BUOYANT ECONOMIC
TIMES ANY OF US IN THIS
LIFETIME HAVE EVER
EXPERIENCED, HOW DO YOU
IMAGINE IT IMPROVING IF
THINGS EVER GET WORSE?

Tony says LET ME COMPARE A DIFFERENT
ERA IN THIS, AND IT'LL SHOW
YOU WHY GOVERNMENT POLICIES
HAVE SUCH A DIRECT IMPACT.
PRIOR TO 1972, UNDER THE
FEDERAL INCOME TAX ACT, THE
BUILDERS OF THIS KIND OF
AFFORDABLE HOUSING WERE
TREATED IN A PARTICULAR
WAY WHEN IT CAME TO
DEPRECIATION, WHEN IT CAME
TO DEFINING WHETHER THEIR
INVESTMENT WAS
ACTIVE OR PASSIVE.
IF YOU HAVE AN ACTIVE
INVESTMENT, YOU GET MORE TAX
WRITE-OFFS.
STARTING IN '72, THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT STARTED TO
CHANGE THAT, AND THERE'S A
DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN
THE ACCUMULATION OF THOSE
CHANGES AND THE DROP OFF OF
AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING
BEING BUILT, TO THE EXTENT
NOW THAT THROUGHOUT CANADA,
LESS THAN 5 PERCENT OF
HOUSING COMPLETIONS ARE
AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING.
IN COMPARISON TO THE UNITED
STATES, OUR NEIGHBOUR TO
THE SOUTH, OVER 15 PERCENT
OF ALL COMPLETIONS ARE
AFFORDABLE RENTAL HOUSING.
SO GOVERNMENTS CAN
MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
BUT IF YOU WANT LONG TERM
SOLUTIONS RATHER THAN
PATCHWORK, YOU HAVE TO
LOOK AT THE TAX STRUCTURE,
AS WELL AS POLICIES.

Steve says I WANT TO GO TO RUTH ON THIS
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU TWO
HAVE A PHILOSOPHICAL
DISAGREEMENT.
HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THE
GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE IN
THE BRICKS AND MORTAR
BUSINESS, AND YOUR
GOVERNMENT, OBVIOUSLY, VERY
MUCH DID BELIEVE THAT, AND
WAS DOING SOMETHING ABOUT
IT UNTIL THE TORIES CAME IN
AND PUT A MORATORIUM
ON ALL THAT.
WHICH IS THE
BETTER WAY TO GO?
I PRESUME YOU THINK YOUR WAY
IS, BUT WHY IS IT A BETTER
WAY TO GO?

Ruth says WELL BECAUSE I THINK THERE
IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE
THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR WILL
BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS REMOVED
RENT CONTROL, STOPPED THE
BUILDING OF GOVERNMENT
PUBLIC SECTOR HOUSING, AND
GIVEN EVERY INCENTIVE TO
THE PRIVATE SECTOR, BE IT
REMOVAL OF REGULATIONS OR
TAX BENEFITS WHICH ARE
HAPPENING IN THE CITY OF
TORONTO AND IN OTHERS.
AND NOTHING HAS BEEN
ACHIEVED, AS THE MINISTER
HAS ACKNOWLEDGED.
IN FACT, IN APRIL, TO QUOTE
YOU, YOU SAID, THE PRIVATE
SECTOR IS RUNNING
OUT OF EXCUSES.
I'M CALLING UPON INDUSTRY TO
PUT MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS.
WE'VE REMOVED THE
IMPEDIMENTS, WE'VE GOT
TO SEE ACTIVITY.
SO PRIVATE SECTOR HASN'T
DONE IT, AND THEIR OWN
STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT FOR
THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO BUILD
RENTAL HOUSING, IT'S NOT
GOING TO BE AFFORDABLE
RENTAL BECAUSE THE COST
OF BUILDING IT IS SUCH.
WHEN THE PUBLIC SECTOR, AND
THAT COULD BE TRADE UNIONS,
IT COULD BE GROUPS OF
PEOPLE WHO COME TOGETHER IN
A COOPERATIVE, IT COULD BE
MUNICIPALITIES, INVEST IN
HOUSING, IT'S AN INVESTMENT.
THE CAPITAL RETURN IS THERE
FOR THE PUBLIC SECTOR, THEY
OWN SOMETHING, AND HOUSING
IS A SOCIAL INVESTMENT AS
MUCH AS JUST PUTTING A
ROOF OVER PEOPLE'S HEADS.
IF KIDS ARE LIVING IN
SUBSTANDARD HOUSING THEY'RE
NOT HEALTHY, THEY DON'T
GET GOOD EDUCATION.
WE ALL KNOW HOUSING IN A
CLIMATE LIKE CANADA'S IS
A REQUIREMENT, AND
IT'S NOT HAPPENING.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THAT
DEMONSTRATION ON THE LAWN
AT QUEEN'S PARK, A NUMBER
OF MONTHS AGO, WHICH AS
EVERYBODY FORGETS WAS
ACTUALLY ABOUT HOMELESSNESS
AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING, THE
VIOLENCE SORT OF OBSCURED
WHAT THE MESSAGE WAS IN ALL
THAT, WILL THAT, AT THE END
OF THE DAY, ACTUALLY GET
SOMETHING HAPPENING?
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOING TO
PLAY BALL WITH THIS GUY,

(he points to Tony)

Steve continues AND EVENTUALLY THEY'RE
GOING TO COME TO SOME KIND
OF AGREEMENT, AS THEY
DID ON HEALTHCARE?

Richard says I SUSPECT THE EXTENT THAT
GOVERNMENTS ACTUALLY DO COME
TO THE TABLE AND DO
SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, IT'LL
BE LESS BECAUSE OF THAT
DEMONSTRATION AND MORE BECAUSE
OF THE NEED THAT GAVE
RISE TO THAT DEMONSTRATION.
BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF
PEOPLE OUT THERE, IN EVERY
CITY IN THIS PROVINCE, NOT
JUST IN TORONTO, WHO ARE
GOING THROUGH THE SHORTFALL
WE HAVE IN HOUSING,
WHETHER IT BE IN RENTAL
UNITS OR OTHERWISE.
IN OTTAWA, WE HAVE
A BOOM GOING ON.
JOB GROWTH LIKE WE'VE NEVER
SEEN BEFORE, AND WE DON'T
HAVE THE HOUSING
TO PUT PEOPLE IN.
I THINK AS FAR AS THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOES,
I THINK IT'S A BIT FEY FOR
THE MINISTER TO SAY, HE MAY
VERY WELL BE RIGHT THE
GOVERNMENT COMES TO THE
TABLE MORE WITH BOTH A
SURPLUS AND AN ELECTION IN
THEIR SIGHTS, BUT THE LAST
TIME THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
GAVE MONEY TO THIS
GOVERNMENT FOR HOUSING,
WHICH I THINK WAS 550
MILLION DOLLARS, THE MINISTER
PASSED 440 MILLION DOLLARS ON
TO MUNICIPALITIES, AND
DOWNLOADED THE
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOUSING
ON TO THEM.
GOT OUT OF THE SOCIAL
HOUSING BUSINESS
THEMSELVES, AND SCOOPED
THE REMAINING 110 MILLION DOLLARS
FOR THEMSELVES.
SO ALL THIS GOVERNMENT'S
RECORD IS, WHATEVER AMOUNTS
ARE COMING FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT, THEY SPEND THAT
MONEY, AND NOT EVEN THAT.

Mac says JUST ON THAT POINT, I
THINK THE LAST TIME, THE
MINISTER CAN CORRECT ME IF
I'M WRONG, THE LAST TIME A
FEDERAL MINISTER OF HOUSING
SHOWED UP AT A HOUSING
MINISTER'S MEETING HAD TO
BE ABOUT SIX YEARS AGO.

Richard says THEY GOT MONEY
LAST NOVEMBER, MAC, YOU
GOT MONEY LAST NOVEMBER.
550 MILLION DOLLARS.
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
IS NOT IN THE HOUSING
BUSINESS ANYMORE.
IT GIVES YOU MONEY.

Mac says THEY GAVE 200,000 HOUSING
UNITS ALONG WITH IT.
I DON'T THINK THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT CAN BE LILY WHITE
ON THIS.
TO THE MINISTER'S POINT,
THERE'S NO QUESTION ALL THEY
HAVE TO DO... NOT
ALL
THEY HAVE TO DO, BUT IF THEY
CHANGE THE CAPITAL COST
ALLOWANCE RULES, CHANGE THE
TREATMENT OF SOFT COSTS,
CHANGE THE TREATMENT OF
PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO
BUSINESS CORPORATIONS WHO
CAN MAKE INVESTMENT IN
RENTAL HOUSING, ONCE THAT'S
DONE, I THINK THEN,
LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

Steve says LET'S TALK SOME REAL TURKEY
HERE WITH THE MINISTER.
THE MUNICIPALITIES WANT
20,000 NEW SOCIALLY
ASSISTED HOUSING UNITS
OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS.
THEY WANT MONEY TO FIX UP
10,000 UNITS OVER THAT TIME.
IS THAT SOMETHING YOU, AS
MINISTER OF HOUSING, CAN SEE
CONTRIBUTING TO?

Tony says IN THE CURRENT STRUCTURE OF
SOCIAL HOUSING IN ONTARIO,
THERE IS MONEY
FOR FIX-UP.
THERE IS OVER 100
MILLION DOLLARS THIS YEAR
THAT WENT INTO FIX-UPS.
SO WHEN YOU COMPARE US TO
OTHER JURISDICTIONS, THE
QUALITY OF OUR HOUSING
STOCK IS REALLY QUITE GOOD.
IT'S AT LEAST COMPARABLE TO
THE PRIVATE SECTOR HOUSING
STOCK OF A SIMILAR VARIETY.

Ruth says DO COME FOR A WALK
WITH ME AND LET ME
SHOW YOU SOME.

Tony says IF THERE'S ANY
EXCEPTIONS, WE'D LIKE
TO KNOW ABOUT IT.
BUT THE GENERAL RULE IS
THE QUALITY OF THE HOUSING
STOCK IS VERY GOOD.
SO THE MONEY CAN
BE REINVESTED.
THE ISSUE IS, DO YOU WANT
TO INVEST IN BRICKS AND
MORTAR, OR DO YOU WANT
TO INVEST IN PEOPLE?
WE MADE A DECISION AS A
GOVERNMENT FIVE YEARS AGO
THAT WHEN IT COMES TO RENT
GEARED TO INCOME, OR RENT
SUPPLEMENTS, WE WILL BE
THERE FOR THE TENANT
WHO NEEDS SOME HELP.

Steve says SO SHELTER ALLOWANCES
YOU BELIEVE ARE THE WAY TO GO.

Tony says SHELTER ALLOWANCES,
AND RENT GEARED TO INCOME,
WHERE YOU SUBSIDIZE THE RENT TO
MAKE UP WHAT THE MARKET RENT IS.

Steve says BUT YOU WANT TO BE
OUT OF THE BUILDING BUSINESS.

Tony says WHEN WE AS A
GOVERNMENT, THE NDP WAS
THE PRIME EXAMPLE, AND THE
LIBERALS BEFORE THEM, WENT INTO
THE SOCIAL HOUSING BUILDING
BUSINESS, IT WAS CALLED
NOT FOR PROFIT HOUSING.
WELL, THE ARCHITECTS MADE A
PROFIT, THE LAWYERS MADE A
PROFIT, THE PLANNERS
MADE A PROFIT, ALL ON THE
TAXPAYER, AND WE HAD SOME
LUDICROUS SITUATIONS WHERE
UNITS WERE UPWARDS OF
160,000 DOLLARS A UNIT TO COMPLETE.
WE THINK THERE'S A BETTER
WAY OF DOING THAT.
IT MEANS THE PRIVATE SECTOR
BUILDING IT, AND US PUTTING THE
MONEY IN FOR THE INDIVIDUAL
TENANT WHO NEEDS HELP.

Steve says RUTH IS GOING
OUT OF HER MIND HERE.
GO AHEAD.

Ruth says LET ME MAKE TWO POINTS
BECAUSE WHAT SHELTER
ALLOWANCES DO IS PUT THE
MONEY RIGHT INTO THE
LANDLORDS' POCKETS,
ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS
NO RENT CONTROL, AND WE'VE
SEEN THE INCREASES THAT ARE
HAPPENING AROUND TORONTO.
BUT I WAS VERY INTERESTED
TO HEAR THAT AT THE FEDERAL
MEETING THAT WAS HELD LAST
WEEK, YOU INDICATED YOU
WOULD BE PREPARED TO SEE
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FUND
MUNICIPALITIES DIRECTLY
WITH NO COMMITMENT THAT
THE PROVINCE WOULD BE
A PARTNER IN THIS.
AND I FIND THAT INTERESTING
BECAUSE OF YOUR IDEOLOGICAL
VIEW THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR
SHOULD DO IT, BUT YOU'RE
PREPARED TO SEE THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT PUT UP CAPITAL
DOLLARS TO BUILD AFFORDABLE
HOUSING, AND ALSO, THE
WHOLE ISSUE OF
JURISDICTION.
IN HEALTHCARE, YOUR PREMIER
CERTAINLY DIDN'T WANT TO
SEE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
DOING THINGS DIRECTLY WITH
THE COMMUNITIES, BUT IN
HOUSING YOU'RE PREPARED TO
LEAVE THAT TOTALLY TO THEM.

Tony says WELL, AND THERE'S
A REASON FOR THAT.
IN HOUSING THE SITUATION IS
MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENTS ARE
VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN
SHELTER AND HOUSING ISSUES,
AND IT WOULD BE COMPLETELY
HYPOCRITICAL OF ME TO SAY
MUNICIPALITIES, YOU PAY THE
COST, BUT YOU CAN'T GET ANY
DEALS WITH THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT EXCEPT THROUGH US.
I WOULD NOT BE CONSISTENT
IF I HAD THAT POSITION.

Steve says CAN I GET
YOU TO ADDRESS...
SORRY, GO AHEAD, RICK.

Richard says WHAT I THINK IS
HYPOCRITICAL, THOUGH, ON THE
ONE HAND TO GO ASKING THE
FEDS FOR MONEY ALL THE
TIME, AND NOT BE THERE
YOURSELF AS A PARTNER,
AS RUTH SUGGESTS.
OBVIOUSLY THERE'S GOING TO
BE A THREE-WAY PARTNERSHIP.
THE MINISTER IS ASKING FOR
INFRASTRUCTURE MONEY, FOR
EXAMPLE, FROM THE FEDS.
WHY DOESN'T HE PUT SOME
OF THAT INTO HOUSING?
HE ALSO MENTIONED SHELTER
ALLOWANCE AND RENT GEARED
TO INCOME.
SHELTER ALLOWANCE THEY
PROMISED TO INCREASE WHEN
THEY RAN IN 1995.
THEY CUT THAT WHEN
THEY CUT WELFARE.
RENT GEARED TO INCOME, THE
PROBLEM WITH THAT, THE
MINISTER DOES A PROGRAM,
HE'S RIGHT, THE PROBLEM
WITH THAT IS THE LANDLORDS
WHO HAVE VIRTUALLY ZERO
VACANCY RATES, HAVE NO
INCENTIVE TO TAKE A RENT
SUPPLEMENTED TENANT WHO GETS
PART OF HIS OR HER MONEY
FROM THE PROVINCE WHEN THEY
CAN ACTUALLY RENT THAT
SPACE OUT TO SOMEBODY WHO
IS, YOU KNOW, A MIDDLE
CLASS EMPLOYEE AT A
HIGH-TECH FIRM IN OTTAWA.

Steve says MAC.

Mac says I THINK IF WE LOOKED AT WHEN
THIS PROBLEM WAS ADDRESSED
EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVELY,
USING AN ALTERNATIVE
APPROACH, WHICH WAS
DURING THE LATTER TERM
OF THE PETERSON
ADMINISTRATION, AND THE NDP
ADMINISTRATION, YOU HAD A
POLICY WHICH SEEMED TO BE
PREMISED ON THE PRINCIPLE
OF HOUSE THE FEW,
BANKRUPT THE MANY.
IT'S TRUE, RUTH.
HOUSE A FEW,
BANKRUPT THE MANY.
BECAUSE THE COST OF THAT
PROGRAM TO THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT WAS GOING UP
AT AN ASTRONOMICAL RATE.
FASTER THAN ANY OTHER...

Ruth says BUT YOU NEVER TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT THE SOCIAL COSTS
OF HOMELESSNESS
AND PEOPLE...

Mac says RUTH, MIKE HARRIS DID
NOT CREATE HOMELESSNESS.
THERE WAS A LOT OF
HOMELESSNESS IN ONTARIO
BEFORE MIKE HARRIS
ARRIVED ON THE SCENE.

Ruth says NOT AS MUCH.

Mac continues AND I THINK TO SUGGEST THE
TAXPAYER SHOULD BE REQUIRED
TO FINANCE THE SORT OF
DEVELOPMENT AND BUILDING WE
SAW OVER THAT PERIOD IS
SIMPLY NOT SUSTAINABLE.

Steve says MIKE HARRIS DIDN'T
CREATE HOMELESSNESS, BUT
HIS CRITICS WILL CHARGE HE
EXACERBATED THE PROBLEM A,
BY CUTTING THE WELFARE
RATES THAT RICHARD JUST
REFERENCED A SECOND AGO,
AND B, BY GETTING OUT OF
THE HOUSE BUILDING BUSINESS.

Mac says I THINK IT'S REALLY,
HOMELESSNESS SHOULDN'T
BE TREATED AS A
MONOLITHIC PROBLEM.
THERE ARE A LOT OF
CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS.
SOME OF THEM ARE
EXTREMELY TRAGIC.
I THINK THE ESTIMATES ARE
ANYWHERE FROM THE GOLDEN
REPORT, 30-35 PERCENT OF
HOMELESS PEOPLE HAVE
MENTAL PROBLEMS.
I THINK SEVERE
MENTAL PROBLEMS.
AND FOR WOMEN, SINGLE
HOMELESS WOMEN, IT'S AS
HIGH AS 75 PERCENT.
AND IN THAT AREA, THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS SPENT 100
MILLION DOLLARS IN THE LAST YEAR,
YEAR AND A HALF, TO ADDRESS
SPECIFIC HOUSING NEEDS.

Ruth says BUT THAT'S SHORT-TERM.

Mac says BUT THERE'S ALSO 40 PERCENT
OF THE HOMELESS PEOPLE
IN TORONTO AREN'T
FROM TORONTO.
14 PERCENT OF THE HOMELESS
PEOPLE IN TORONTO ARE
ACTUALLY FROM
OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.

Ruth says BUT THEY'RE ALL POOR.
IF YOU'RE EARNING MINIMUM
WAGE, YOU'RE GETTING A
THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH,
AND YOU'RE PAYING 800 DOLLARS A
MONTH FOR RENT IN
TORONTO, YOU CAN'T EXIST.
YOU'RE GOING TO BE LIVING
UNDER ONE OF MEL'S MOOSE
FOR THE ENTIRE WINTER.

Steve says I PROMISED TONY
A CHANCE TO RESPOND
TO THAT AS WELL.
THE NOTION THAT THE
WELFARE CUTS HAVE ACTUALLY
EXACERBATED HOMELESSNESS AS
WELL AS GETTING OUT OF THE
AFFORDABLE
HOUSING BUSINESS.

Tony says WELL, NO ONE WHO LIVES IN
OUR COUNTRY OR PROVINCE
WANTS TO SEE HOMELESS PEOPLE
WITHOUT ADEQUATE SHELTER.
SO WE'RE ALL
TRYING TO GRAPPLE...

Steve says SOME ARE PREPARED
TO DO MORE ABOUT IT
THAN OTHERS, THOUGH.

Tony continues AND I THINK WE'VE PUT OUR
MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTH IS,
AS MAC HAS MENTIONED.
AND TO GIVE THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT CREDIT, THEY ALSO
ANNOUNCED UNILATERALLY, BUT
THEY DID ANNOUNCE PROGRAMS
THAT WERE GEARED TOWARDS
THE HOMELESSNESS.
IT IS A VERY, BELIEVE ME, IF
I HAD A MAGIC WAND ON THIS ONE,
THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE
I'D USE IT IMMEDIATELY.
BUT IT IS KIND OF THE RUBIK'S
CUBE OF PUBLIC POLICY.
HOMELESSNESS IS A HOUSING
ISSUE, IT'S A MENTAL HEALTH
ISSUE, IT'S A SOCIOECONOMIC
ISSUE, AND YOU HAVE TO
APPROACH IT FROM MANY
DIFFERENT ANGLES WHICH IS
WHY THE 100 MILLION WE
ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR,
45 MILLION OF IT WENT TO
HOUSING NEEDS AND OTHER
NEEDS OF THE SERIOUSLY
MENTALLY ILL BECAUSE THAT
WAS AN AREA WHERE WE COULD
REALLY PULL UP OUR SOCKS
AFTER GOVERNMENTS FOR SO
MANY YEARS DID NOT REALLY
TAKE THAT ISSUE AS SERIOUSLY
AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
IS THERE MORE
TO BE DONE?
ABSOLUTELY THERE'S
MORE TO BE DONE.
I'D LIKE TO CONCENTRATE
ON LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS.
WE HAVE TO GET THE STOCK
OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING UP.

Steve says RUTH'S QUESTION
IS A GOOD ONE.
IT'S WORSE NOW
THAN IT WAS.
DO YOU THINK IT'LL BE BETTER
BY THE TIME YOU'RE DONE
WITH THIS JOB?

Tony says I WOULD LIKE TO THINK WE CAN
MAKE IMPROVEMENTS IN THIS
AREA IF THE MUNICIPALITIES
AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
WORK WITH US TOGETHER.
YES, I THINK WE CAN MAKE
IMPROVEMENTS IN THIS AREA,
AND I WANT TO SEE THAT.
WE HAVE TO GO ABOUT
IT THE RIGHT WAY.
THE OLD SOLUTIONS
DIDN'T WORK.

Steve says RUTH IS
SHAKING HER HEAD.

Ruth says SIX YEARS.
SENIORS AT FOOD BANKS ARE
NOW 11 PERCENT OF THE
CLIENTS BECAUSE MANY OF
THEM ON PENSIONS, IF
THEY'RE DISABLED, ARE
JUST UNABLE TO BOTH PAY
THE RENT AND EAT.
AND EVERYBODY I TALK TO SAYS IT'S GOING TO MUCH WORSE
THIS WINTER THAN
IT WAS LAST WINTER.

[all talking at once]

Richard says I AGREE WITH WHAT
RUTH SAID, AND IN ADDITION I
THINK IF THE MINISTER WANTS
THAT TO BE THE CASE AT THE
END OF HIS TERM, HE OUGHT
TO TAKE UP DAVID CAPLAN'S
SUGGESTION, THE NEW
AFFORDABLE HOUSING
INCENTIVES ACT, WHICH I
THINK IS ESSENTIALLY AN
AMENDMENT OF HIS MUNICIPAL
ACT, WHICH ALLOWS
MUNICIPALITIES TO GET WHAT
THEY'VE ASKED FOR, WHICH IS
GREATER INCENTIVES TO ALLOW
FOR-PROFIT FIRMS TO BUILD
AFFORDABLE HOUSING.
IF THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS THE SOLUTION HE WANTS IS,
HE NEEDS TO GIVE
MUNICIPALITIES THE POWERS
TO DELIVER IT.
HE'S DOWNLOADED THE
RESPONSIBILITY.

Mac says VERY QUICKLY.
WHEN IN THE LATE '80s AND
EARLY '90s EXPENDITURE IN
THIS AREA, DIRECT TAX
EXPENDITURE IN THIS AREA
WAS GOING UP AT DOUBLE
DIGIT RATES EVERY YEAR.
THE NUMBER OF HOMELESS
PEOPLE IN THE CITY INCREASED,
AND THE WAITING LIST FOR
SOCIAL HOUSING INCREASED.
SO I DON'T THINK...

Steve says THERE WAS A
RECESSION ON AT THE TIME.

Ruth says AND THE ECONOMY WASN'T
QUITE WHAT IT IS TODAY.

Mac says THERE WAS NO RECESSION
ON IN 1987, '88, AND '89
THAT I CAN RECALL.

Steve says THAT'S TRUE.

Mac continues AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE
YEARS... AND DAVID PETERSON
REFERRED TO THAT PROBLEM,
ONE OF THEM, AS BEING THE
SWEET HEADACHE OF GROWTH.

Steve says SWEET HEADACHE,
I REMEMBER IT WELL.

Steve says I'VE GOT TO GIVE THE
MINISTER THE LAST 20 SECONDS.
GO AHEAD.

Tony says IS THERE MORE
WORK TO BE DONE?
YES, THERE IS.
BUT WE THINK IF YOU
CONCENTRATE ON THE LONG-TERM
ISSUES, THE TAX STRUCTURE
THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
CAN HELP US WITH, THE TAX
STRUCTURE MUNICIPALLY THAT
OUR MUNICIPALITIES CAN
HELP US WITH IN TERMS OF
PROPERTY TAXES FOR LOW
INCOME AFFORDABLE HOUSING,
WE CAN MAKE PROGRESS ON
THIS ISSUE, AND I'M QUITE
COMMITTED TO THAT.

Steve says THAT'S TONY CLEMENT,
THE MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS AND HOUSING.
THANKS FOR BEING
BACK HERE AT TVO.
TONY, IT'S GOOD
TO HAVE YOU HERE.

Tony says THANK YOU.

Steve says THREE OF YOU, THANKS AGAIN,
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND.

Now, Steve looks at the camera and says AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
JOIN US AGAIN FOR ANOTHER
EDITION OF
4th READING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Researcher, Peter Harris.

Editor, Ted Ambrose.

CEP-SCEP logo.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2000, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #204