Transcript: Andy Barrie | Oct 24, 1999

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue.”

The title of the episode pops up against an image of Richard Ouzounian and a guest talking at a restaurant table: “Andy Barrie. Radio Host.”

Then, Richard appears facing the screen. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a gray suit, black shirt, and spotted gray tie.

He says WELCOME TO
DIALOGUE.
I'M RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
MORE PEOPLE HAVE
WOKEN UP TO MY GUEST
THAN I'D IMAGINE
EVEN WARREN BEATTY,
BUT NOT FOR THE
SAME REASONS.
HE IS THE HOST OF ONE OF
THE MOST SUCCESSFUL MORNING
SHOWS IN RADIO IN ONTARIO,
AND HE IS WITH ME TODAY -
A LITTLE PAST HIS
USUAL GETTING UP TIME.
THIS
DIALOGUE
IS
WITH ANDY BARRIE.

Andy is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted white hair. He’s wearing a black suit and a black sweater over a yellow shirt.

Richard continues ANDY, WELCOME.
DO YOU GET THAT, GEE,
I HAVE YOU IN MY HOME
EVERY MORNING
APPROACH FROM PEOPLE?

Andy says I GET THAT ALL THE
TIME, AND I GET:
I FREQUENTLY WAKE UP IN
THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SHOW.
I HAVE A STOCK
RESPONSE FOR THAT,
WHICH IS, I
FREQUENTLY WAKE UP
IN THE MIDDLE OF
MY SHOW TOO.
[chuckling]
AND I GET, OF COURSE, A
WHOLE LOT OF WHICH EVERYBODY
IN RADIO GETS - YOU WOULDN'T
BECAUSE YOU DO THIS ALL
THE TIME - WHICH IS,
WHEN WE MEET PEOPLE:
YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU
SOUND ON THE RADIO.
WHICH IS FASCINATING.

Richard says WHAT DO THEY THINK YOU'RE
GOING TO LOOK LIKE?

Andy says THIS GOES BACK TO THAT
WONDERFUL SCENE IN
RADIO DAYS,
WOODY ALLEN'S
MOVIE OR WHATEVER.
PEOPLE - IT'S NOT JUST ME -
THEY PROJECT INTO RADIO WHAT
THEY WANT YOU TO LOOK LIKE,
SO IT'S NEVER THE SAME TWICE.
YEARS AGO, I WAS ON GLOBAL
TELEVISION FOR A WHILE.
I HAD A FULL BEARD THEN, AND
AFTER I GOT OFF THE AIR,
THE FIRST TIME I APPEARED,
I WAS AN ANCHORMAN.
A WOMAN CALLED AND SAID,
I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO YOU
ON RADIO FOR YEARS, BUT
YOU DON'T SOUND LIKE
YOU HAVE A BEARD.
[laughing]
I'M LIKE, WHAT DOES
A BEARD SOUND LIKE?
SHE COULDN'T SAY.

Richard says DO YOU FIND THERE IS
ONE PARTICULAR TYPE
OF DESCRIPTION YOU KEEP
HEARING WHEN PEOPLE SAY,
I THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING
TO LOOK LIKE...?

Andy says NO, AGAIN - AND THIS
IS, BY THE WAY,
THE MARVEL OF RADIO...
IT IS OLDER,
OR I THOUGHT YOU
WERE YOUNGER,
I THOUGHT YOU WERE HEAVIER,
I THOUGHT YOU WERE THINNER.
EACH OF US HAVE SORT OF
A PSYCHOLOGICAL SENSE
OF THE PERSON THAT
WE FEEL CLOSE TO.
AND RADIO, UNLIKE TELEVISION...
I'M TOLD THAT TELEVISION
IS USUALLY WATCHED BY MORE
THAN ONE PERSON AT A TIME.
SO, THERE'S AN AUDIENCE, AND
YOU WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE
WITH SOME SORT OF FOOTLIGHT
OR A PROSCENIUM OR WHATEVER.
YOU'RE OUT THERE,
A PERFORMER.
RADIO IS ALMOST ALWAYS
LISTENED TO BY ONE PERSON
AT A TIME, AND THEY
BOND, AS WE DO,
IN ONE-ON-ONE
CONVERSATIONS.
ALL THE MOVIES THAT ARE
BEING MADE IN HOLLYWOOD
RIGHT NOW ABOUT PHONE
SEX AND THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE REALLY
PROVIDING IT.
THEY'RE IRONING THEIR
CLOTHES IN THE KITCHEN
AND THEY'VE GOT A HEAD
FULL OF CURLERS.

Richard says I ALWAYS THINK BACK TO
THE MOST DIABOLICAL PHONE
OBSESSION MOVIE, RADIO
OBSESSION MOVIE,
WHICH WAS
PLAY
MISTY FOR ME.
WHERE THE WOMAN BECOMES
OBSESSED WITH THE DISC
JOCKEY AND IT FINALLY LEADS
TO MURDER AND ALL THIS STUFF.

Andy says THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN TO ME.

Richard says WELL, GOOD, BUT THERE IS
A SPECIAL ROLE YOU FILL.
YOU'VE BEEN ON THE RADIO AT
VARIOUS TIMES OF THE DAY,
WHICH WE'LL TALK ABOUT,
BUT NOW YOU'RE THERE
AS THE MORNING PERSON,
THE ONE THEY WAKE UP TO
AND THE ONE WHO KIND OF
GUIDES THEM THROUGH THE DAY.
DO YOU FIND THAT HAS A SPECIAL
PLACE IN PEOPLE'S HEARTS?

Andy says IT ALWAYS HAS A
SPECIAL PLACE IN MINE.
WHEN IT WAS DONE
RIGHT, I LOVED IT;
WHEN IT WAS DONE
WRONG, I WOKE UP
ON THE WRONG
SIDE OF THE BED.
I SOMETIMES THINK THAT
PEOPLE WILL SAY TO ME,
GEE, HOW DO YOU BECOME SO
LIVELY IN THE MORNING?
AND I THINK I PROBABLY
OVERCOMPENSATE
IN THAT DIRECTION.
I THINK I PROBABLY TRY TO
BE REALLY BUOYANT - BECAUSE
WHAT YOU WANT TO BE IS
REALLY SORT OF WOKEN UP.
AND IT'S AS LIKELY, I
THINK, A LOT OF THE TIME,
THAT IF YOU SORT OF
SOUNDED LIKE A SLUG,
YOU WOULD BE MORE IN THE
PSYCHOLOGICAL SPACE
A LOT OF YOUR
LISTENERS ARE IN.

Richard says BUT NO ONE DOES THAT.
IF YOU THINK YOU'RE
OVERLY BUOYANT,
A LOT OF THE POP STATIONS,
THEY'RE PRACTICALLY HITTIN'
EACH OTHER ON THE HEAD
WITH WHOOPEE CUSHIONS
AND TELLING DIRTY JOKES.

Andy says AND WE'RE HITTING
PEOPLE AT THE CBC
OVER THE HEAD WITH SCHOOL
CLOSURES AND BOMBS DROPPING
AND RUNAWAY BACILLI
INFECTING FOLKS
ALL OVER THE PLACE.
THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE;
WE TRY TO ENTERTAIN PEOPLE
AND AMUSE THEM AND DISTRACT
THEM SOMETIMES TOO.
BUT IT'S A DEMANDING
TABLE WE SET,
FOR PEOPLE TO SIT DOWN
TO AT BREAKFAST TIME.

Richard says I ALWAYS REMEMBER
ONE MORNING,
I WAS SITTING THERE DOING
THE MENU FOR THE WEEK,
BECAUSE I HAD TO GO OUT AND
DO THE SHOPPING AND I
HAD JUST WRITTEN DOWN WHAT WE
WERE GOING TO HAVE THAT NIGHT.
AND IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF
A REPORT ON E.COLI BACTERIA,
AND I IMMEDIATELY CROSSED
OUT THE WORD HAMBURGER.
SO, YOU'LL BE PLEASED TO KNOW
YOU HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT.

Andy says ON YOUR GASTRIC SYSTEM, YEAH.

Richard says DO YOU FIND PEOPLE
TEND TO TURN TO YOU
MORE IN TERMS
OF CRISIS?
LIKE, AS WE'RE TAPING
THIS INTERVIEW,
THERE'S ALL THE TROUBLE
IN KOSOVO AT THE MOMENT.
DO YOU FIND PEOPLE WANT
TO LISTEN TO CBC,
WANT TO LISTEN TO A MORE
INFORMATIONAL PROGRAM?

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Andy Barrie. Radio Host.”

Andy says I THINK I'M GOING
TO BE REALLY FAIR,
INCLUDING TO THE PEOPLE
I USED TO WORK FOR
BEFORE I CAME
TO THE CBC.
THERE WAS A TIME WHEN YOU
AND I WERE GROWING UP WHEN
ALMOST ALL PRIVATE RADIO
WAS BASICALLY A JUKEBOX,
AND THAT'S ALL
YOU COULD GET.
THERE'D BE A LITTLE TINY
NEWSCAST AT THE TOP
AND THE BOTTOM OF THE
HOUR, IF EVEN THAT.
THERE'S A LOT OF
COMPETITION RIGHT NOW.
YEAH, I THINK PEOPLE DO,
WHEN THEY FEEL LIKE LIFE'S
BECOME RISKY BUSINESS,
TURN TO THE RADIO
FOR INFORMATION
IN THE MORNING.
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THEY
WANT TO BE BETTER INFORMED
AROUND THE WATER COOLER.
THEY WANT TO BE SET
UP FOR THEIR DAY,
WHETHER IT'S A TRAFFIC
REPORT OR WHETHER
IT'S THE NEWS
OF THE DAY.
AND THEY TURN TO
US, CERTAINLY,
BUT THEY TURN TO
OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL,
WHO PACKAGE IT
DIFFERENTLY.
SOMETIMES, THEY PROBABLY -
I'M AFRAID TO ADMIT -
EVEN TURN TO HOWARD STERN,
WHO WILL BE TALKING ABOUT
THE NEWS OF THE DAY.

Richard says IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY.

Andy says IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT
WAY, BUT TOTALLY DIFFERENT;
MONTY PYTHON IS WHAT
PEOPLE SOMETIMES NEED.
I THINK THE CBC DEFINITELY
IS FOR A LOT OF THINGS:
THE RADIO STATION, THE MEDIA OF
RECORD, FOR A LOT OF CANADIANS -
NOT PERHAPS FOR ALL OF THEM,
BUT FOR AN AWFUL LOT OF THEM.
MEANING IF SOMETHING WAS
URGENTLY HAPPENING
AND YOU DIDN'T WANT IT
TO BE INTERRUPTED,
SO YOU COULD BE TOLD ABOUT
THE LATEST DEALS ON CARS
AROUND THE CORNER,
YOU'D COME TO US.
AND YOU'D COME TO US FOR A
LOT MORE DEPTH, I THINK,
AND BREADTH THAN YOU
MIGHT FIND ELSEWHERE.

Richard says LET'S RETURN
TO RADIO A BIT,
BUT I WANT TO
GET YOU THERE.
BECAUSE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE,
YOU'RE THIS GUY WHO THEY
HEARD ON CFRB AND NOW
THEY'VE HEARD ON CBC.
Mr. BARRIE, WHERE
DID HE ALL START OUT?

Andy says WELL...

Richard says AND DON'T TELL ME AT A
500-WATT STATION IN ENCINO.

Andy says AT A FIVE-WATT
STATION AT SUMMER CAMP.
I SHOULD HAVE
BROUGHT IT WITH ME;
I HAVE THIS PHOTOGRAPH
HANGING IN MY OFFICE.
IT'S NINE-YEAR-OLD
ANDY BARRIE,
SITTING AT A
MICROPHONE WITH,
YOU KNOW THOSE OLD RCA
45 RPM RECORD PLAYERS?
THEY HAD BIG, THICK
SPINDLES WITH RED TOPS,
AND YOU'D STACK 'EM.
AND THAT'S IN FRONT OF ME;
I THINK I'M PLAYING
“THE NAUGHTY LADY OF SHADY
LANE,” AND IT'S 1954.

Richard says SHE'S ONLY FIVE YEARS OLD?

Andy says THANK YOU.
THERE'S AN
IMPORTANT SUBTEXT,
AND IT'S A FIVE-WATT
LOUDSPEAKER I'M BROADCASTING
THROUGH TO WAKE UP THE
SUMMER CAMP EVERY MORNING,
WHICH IS A JOB GIVEN TO ME
BY THE PEOPLE WHO RAN
THIS FAIRLY SMALL BOYS' CAMP,
BECAUSE I WAS A CRUMMY ATHLETE.
NOW, HERE'S A QUICK AUTHOR'S
MESSAGE ABOUT THIS,
BECAUSE IT LED ME
INTO BROADCASTING,
AND FOR ALL I KNOW IT
LED YOU INTO THEATRE.
THIS SUMMER CAMP UNDERSTOOD
THAT NOT EVERY BOY
WAS GOING TO ACHIEVE OR
FIND POISE IN THE WAY
MOST YOUNG BOYS DO, WHICH
IS HITTING A HOME RUN,
SINKING A BASKET, GETTING
A PUCK INTO A NET.
I WASN'T GOING TO DO THAT,
I WAS A TERRIBLE ATHLETE.
MY HOBBY WAS PUPPETRY
AND LATER MAGIC.
SO, I HAD A PERFORMANCE
THING IN ME,
AND PROBABLY WAS
KIND OF CLUMSY AT IT.
BUT THAT'S OKAY, I WAS
PREPARED TO SORT OF
PUT MYSELF OUT THERE.
AND THEY GAVE ME THIS
LITTLE JOB IN THE MORNING,
BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE
THE ONE PLACE AT SUMMER CAMP
WHERE THIS LITTLE
ANDY BARRIE
WAS GOING TO BE ALLOWED
TO FEEL SPECIAL.
AND I DID THAT, AND THEN
I WENT AWAY FROM IT
FOR A LONG TIME.
NO ONE HIRED ME OUT OF THAT
FIVE-WATT LOUDSPEAKER SYSTEM.

Richard says SO, ANDY, YOU HAD THIS
EARLY BEGINNING WITH RADIO,
BUT YOU DIDN'T
STICK WITH IT,
DIDN'T COME BACK TO
IT FOR A LONG TIME.

Andy says NO, I WENT AWAY TO UNIVERSITY
TO BECOME AN ACTOR.
I LOVED THE THEATRE, AND
VERY QUICKLY REALIZED
THAT I DIDN'T HAVE THE
DISCIPLINE FOR IT, FRANKLY.
MY ROOMMATE HAS GONE
ON TO WIN, I THINK,
EIGHT TONY AWARDS:
JERRY ZAKS.

Richard says ONE OF THE BEST DIRECTORS
OF MUSICALS ON BROADWAY.

Andy says HE CAME TO SCHOOL TO BECOME
A DOCTOR AND WOUND UP
BEING DRAWN TO
THE THEATRE.
I WAS OFFERED A PART IN
HENRY V; IT WAS TWO LINES,
AND THEY WANTED ME TO
SHOW UP AT REHEARSALS
EVERY NIGHT FOR
THREE-AND-A-HALF MONTHS.
AND I THOUGHT, I DON'T KNOW
IF I CAN HANG IN AS LONG
AS IT'S GOING TO TAKE ME
TO GET TO BE THE CHORUS,
WHICH IS THE
PART I WANTED.
SO, I GRAVITATED TOWARDS
THE STUDENT RADIO STATION,
AND RADIO, AT LEAST THE
KIND I GOT INVOLVED IN,
IS WONDERFUL.
IT'S A MIXTURE OF
PERFORMANCE, YES,
AND JOURNALISM.
SO, THERE'S LOTS OF STUFF
FOR BOTH THE RIGHT BRAIN
AND THE LEFT BRAIN.
BUT INTERESTINGLY, IT'S ALSO
LIKE MY HOBBY OF PUPPETRY WAS:
YOU'RE NOT OUT THERE;
THE PUPPETEER HAS GOT
MARIONETTES DOWN ON THE
STAGE AND IS LOST
IN THE SHADOWS.
AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT
RADIO IS; YOU PROJECT
YOURSELF AS A PERFORMER
INTO PEOPLE'S IMAGINATION,
AND YOU'RE NOT OUT THERE.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO WHAT YOU
DO ON TELEVISION, RICHARD;
YOU DON'T HAVE TO
HAVE YOUR HAIR BLOWN.
I VERY RARELY WEAR MASCARA
WHEN I GO ON THE RADIO
IN THE MORNING, AS
I AM RIGHT NOW.

Richard says I THINK THEY'LL BE
GLAD TO HEAR THAT.

[chuckling]

Andy says SO, RADIO JUST TURNED OUT
TO BE A PERFECT PLACE FOR ME
TO GO BACK TO THOSE TIMES AS
A KID WHEN I WAS ALLOWED
TO FEEL SORT OF STRONG AND
POISED AS A PERFORMER,
AND ALSO BE ABLE TO GROW.
I MEAN, THE BETTER
AN EDUCATION I GOT,
THE MORE I LEARNED
ABOUT THE WORLD,
THE MORE I HAD
TO CONTRIBUTE,
AND THE MORE
WATTAGE I WAS GIVEN.

Richard says IN A WAY, ARE YOU TRYING TO
SAY THAT WHAT YOU CAN BE
ON THE RADIO IS WHAT
YOU WOULD LIKE TO BE,
RATHER THAN WHAT YOU
THINK YOU ACTUALLY ARE?

Andy says NO, AS A MATTER OF
FACT, THAT'S NOT
WHAT I'M
TRYING TO SAY.
AS A MATTER OF FACT, I
THINK - AND THERE COULD BE
EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE -
THAT RADIO REQUIRES
YOU PRETTY MUCH
TO BE YOURSELF.
THERE AREN'T VERY MANY BOGUS
PERSONALITIES IN RADIO.
WE MENTIONED HOWARD STERN
BEFORE; HE IS WHO HE IS,
THAT'S WHO YOU GET.
AND I'D LIKE TO THINK I'M
PRETTY MUCH THE SAME PERSON
ON THE AIR AS I AM OFF.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S ALWAYS
THE CASE IN TELEVISION,
AGAIN, BECAUSE THE BRAIN
JUST ASSOCIATES
SO MUCH WITH WHAT
IT SEES VISUALLY.
IF YOU ASSUME A CERTAIN
DEMEANOR OF GRAVITY,
YOU COULD BE A
COMPLETE JERK,
BUT PEOPLE WILL
READ THAT.
VOICE, I THINK, IS
A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

Richard says ONE OF THE MAJOR
NEWSCASTERS WAS SAYING TO ME
THAT HE WENT INTO MCDONALD'S
ONE DAY AND SOMEBODY STOPPED
HIM AND SAID, YOU CANNOT
BE HERE IN BLUE JEANS
IN MCDONALD'S.
I DON'T WANT TO
SEE YOU THERE.
THEY WANT YOU IN A DESK,
IN A SUIT AND A TIE
TALKING ABOUT BOMBING.

Andy says AND I'VE NOTICED SOMETHING
ELSE ABOUT RADIO AND
TV PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE
OUT IN THE WORLD,
IS THAT A RADIO
PERSON, WHOEVER IT IS,
A LISTENER WHO'S NEVER MET
YOU BUT LISTENED TO YOU FOR
YEARS WILL JUST WALK UP AND
BEGIN THE CONVERSATION.
JUST LIKE THAT, LIKE, ALL
RIGHT, YOU'VE HAD YOUR SAY,
NOW I'M GOING TO
START TALKING.
TELEVISION - PEOPLE SORT OF
HOVER OFF IN THE DISTANCE
WHEN THEY SEE A
TV PERSONALITY.
THEY KIND OF WALK BY...

Richard says IS THAT THEM - IS IT?

Andy says AM I GOING TO
SAY SOMETHING?
OR SHOULD I LET
THEM SEE THAT I SEE?
AGAIN, THERE'S
THAT DISTANCE,
THE PERFORMER-AUDIENCE DISTANCE
THAT I THINK RADIO CLOSES.
AND THE BEST
PEOPLE WHO DO IT,
PEOPLE LIKE PETER
GZOWSKI, FOR INSTANCE,
ENJOY A FAMILIARITY WITH
THEIR AUDIENCE THAT
I ARGUE VIRTUALLY NO
TELEVISION PERFORMER,
NO MATTER HOW FOND HIS
AUDIENCE IS OF HIM OR HER,
EVER ENJOYS.
THERE'S ALWAYS THAT
SENSE OF, YOU'RE A STAR,
AND I'M DOWN ON EARTH LOOKING
UP AT YOU IN THE SKY.

Richard says BUT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A
GREATER PERSONAL IMPACT
IN SOME WAYS.
PEOPLE SIT THERE AND THEY GET
VERY OPINIONATED ABOUT YOU.
THEY EITHER LOVE YOU
OR THEY DISLIKE YOU.

Andy says NO ONE DISLIKES ME, NO.

Richard says WELL, THERE'S
TWO WEIRD PEOPLE,
AND THEY'RE IN SCARBOROUGH,
AND I HAVE TO GIVE YOU
THEIR NAMES LATER.
[laughing]
BUT NO, PEOPLE GET VERY
PASSIONATE ABOUT IT,
AND THEY FEEL PERSONALLY
CONNECTED TO A RADIO HOST,
WHEREAS I THINK
EVEN, LET'S SAY,
EVERYBODY WHO WATCHES
LLOYD ROBERTSON DON'T
FEEL PASSIONATELY
CONNECTED TO HIM.
THEY MAY THINK HE'S DOING A
NICE JOB AND THEY LIKE TO
WATCH HIM, BUT IT'S NOT:
DID YOU HEAR LLOYD TODAY?
A LINE I HEAR ON THE
SUBWAY FREQUENTLY IS,
DID YOU HEAR ANDY
THIS MORNING?
THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE
TO SPECIFY, ANDY WHO?

Andy says OH, WOULD THAT I WERE A
FLY ON THE SUBWAY WALL.
WE'D LOVE TO HEAR THAT.

Richard says TAKE THE SUBWAY.

Andy says IT'S INTERESTING, WHEN I
JOINED CBC, THEY TOOK
THESE HUGE POSTERS
OUT ALL OVER THE CITY,
AND I SORT OF
FELT OUTED.
AGAIN, WHEN YOU'RE
A RADIO BROADCASTER,
YOU DON'T REALLY
WANT TO BE SEEN.
I GET RECOGNIZED NOW;
THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED
IN MY ENTIRE CAREER,
THANKS TO THOSE POSTERS.
AND THAT WAS
FINE WITH ME.
IT'S NOT JUST THE ANONYMITY,
WHICH IS FUN, THAT AGAIN,
TV PEOPLE OR MOVIE STARS
OR WHATEVER DON'T GET.
BUT IT'S ALSO BECAUSE THE
LISTENER AGAIN HAS A CHANCE
TO ASSOCIATE WITH YOU
PRECISELY WHAT THEY WANT TO.

Richard says ROLLING BACK TO
THE CAMPUS RADIO,
WE'RE TALKING CAMPUS AND
WE'RE TALKING LATE '60s-ISH?

Andy says YEAH, '63 TO '67.

Richard says OKAY, DID YOUR
CAMPUS RADIO STATION
EVER GET INTO POLITICS?
BECAUSE POLITICS WAS
PART OF EVERYBODY'S
LIFE AT THAT POINT?

Andy says I FINISHED IN '67.
THIS WAS IN THE
UNITED STATES.
YOU WILL REMEMBER THAT '67
WAS THE SUMMER OF LOVE,
'68 WAS WHEN CAMPUSES
FROM FRANCE TO CANADA
TO THE UNITED
STATES WENT WILD.
I WAS SORT OF OUT WORKING
BY THE TIME THAT HAPPENED.
I WENT TO ANTI-WAR
PROTESTS IN A JACKET
AND TIE AND
PENNY LOAFERS.
THAT'LL GIVE YOU AN IDEA,
AND THEN THE YEAR AFTER,
IT WAS HEADBANDS AND
UP AGAINST THE WALL...
WHOEVER.
BUT NO, I'M AFRAID THERE
WEREN'T A WHOLE LOT OF POLITICS,
EXCEPT IN THOSE
DAYS IN THE STATES,
A SIMMERING SENSE THAT
VIETNAM WAS A TRAGEDY
AND NEEDED TO
BE AVERTED.
AND THAT WAS WHAT
PASSED FOR POLITICS.

Richard says YOU WERE IN HEADBANDS
AND IN DEMONSTRATIONS
BY THE LATE '60s, AND THEN
SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE
WE CROSSED THE
LINE INTO CANADA.
WERE THE TWO
EVENTS RELATED?

Andy says OH, REALLY RELATED.
I WAS A CONSCIENTIOUS
OBJECTOR IN THE STATES;
THAT'S A STATUS GRANTED
BY THE DRAFT BOARD,
AND THE STATUS THEY GAVE
ME REQUIRED ME TO GO IN
AS A NON-COMBATANT TO THE
MILITARY, WHICH I DID.
I WAS DRAFTED, AND I WAS
WORKING IN TELEVISION -
MEDICAL TELEVISION, BECAUSE
I WAS TRAINED AS A MEDIC.
AND MY ORDERS CAME
DOWN FOR VIETNAM.
MY BROTHER HAD JUST
COMPLETED TWO YEARS
IN VIETNAM; HE'S A RETIRED
U.S. MILITARY OFFICER.
AND I KNEW ENOUGH FROM MY
OWN FEELINGS AS A C.O.
AND FROM HIS EXPERIENCE
THERE - HE'D GONE OVER THERE
RATHER GUNG-HO AND CAME
BACK WITH A VERY DIFFERENT
OPINION OF THE WAR - TO
KNOW THAT I'D HAVE
NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
SO, THE DAY BEFORE
CHRISTMAS EVE, 1969,
I GOT INTO MY CAR AND
I DROVE TO CANADA,
NEVER EXPECTING TO STEP FOOT
IN MY NATIVE COUNTRY AGAIN.
AND REMARKABLY, WHICH IS A
WHOLE OTHER STORY THAT
I COULD SPEND DAYS AND
HOURS TALKING ABOUT,
WALKED IN OFF THE STREET
TO CJAD RADIO IN MONTREAL.
ANNOUNCED WHAT I WAS,
BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT
TO EMBARRASS THEM LATER, IF THIS
WAS GOING TO BE A LIABILITY.
AND THEY GAVE ME A JOB,
AND I WENT TO WORK ON CJAD
DURING THE WAR
MEASURES ACT.

Richard says FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE, REALLY.

Andy says FRYING PAN INTO
THE FIRE, EXACTLY,
AND FOR A NEW CANADIAN WHO
WAS WORKING VERY HARD
TO LEARN HOW TO STAY
OUT AND BEEN AND ZED,
MUCH LESS TO TRY TO
UNDERSTAND THE HISTORIC
UNDERPINNINGS THAT
MADE THE FLQ
PROBABLY ALMOST
INEVITABLE AT THAT TIME.
IT WAS QUITE AN EDUCATION;
IT WAS GOING TO BE
MY POST-GRADUATE EDUCATION
IN CANADIAN AFFAIRS.
AND I THINK FRANKLY, BY THE
TIME I CAME OUT OF THAT
EXPERIENCE, I MAY NOT
HAVE HAD THE GROUNDING
THAT A NATIVE WOULD HAVE
HAD, OR A UNITED EMPIRE
LOYALIST DESCENDANT.
MAYBE NOT; I THINK FRANKLY
A LOT OF EMIGRANTS
FROM THE STATES TO
CANADA, IF ANYTHING,
WORK HARDER AT PASSING,
WHICH MEANS BOTH BEING
IDENTIFIED AS A CANADIAN
AND IDENTIFYING YOURSELF
AS A CANADIAN THAN A
LOT OF NATIVES WOULD.

Richard says AND NATIVE-BORN CANADIAN
DOESN'T REALLY FEEL THEY
HAVE TO KNOW THE NAMES OF
ALL THE PROVINCIAL CAPITALS,
BUT IF YOU'RE COMING
IN YOU HAVE TO.
I WANT TO GO WITH YOU THAT
DAY YOU GOT IN THE CAR
AND YOU CROSSED
THE BORDER.
DO YOU PHYSICALLY REMEMBER
THE BORDER CROSSING?

Andy says EVERY SECOND OF IT.

Richard says I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THAT.

Andy says WELL, I CAN'T DISOWN
THE AVERAGE AMERICAN'S
IGNORANCE OF CANADA.
THIS WAS THE TIME OF THE
BERLIN WALL AND CHECKPOINT
CHARLIE, AND THIS WAS A TIME
ALSO WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE
MY AGE IN THE STATES WERE BEING
TOLD THAT HORRIBLE THINGS
WOULD BEFALL US IF WE
ATTEMPTED TO LEAVE.
SO, I FORGOT THAT UNLIKE
CHECKPOINT CHARLIE,
YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO BE LET
OUT OF THE UNITED STATES.
THAT, IN OTHER WORDS, I
WOULDN'T SEE A BORDER
OFFICIAL UNTIL
I WAS IN CANADA.
SO, WE CROSSED AT A PLACE
CALLED DERBY LINE, VERMONT,
MY WIFE-TO-BE AND MYSELF.
I CAN'T TELL YOU THE COVER
STORIES I HAD ABOUT WHY
WE WERE COMING TO CANADA.
I COULDN'T SEE BECAUSE MY
ARMY-ISSUED GLASSES
WERE UNDER THE SEAT
AND I WAS HALF BLIND.
AND I THINK I EXPECTED
WATCH TOWERS AND HEADLIGHTS
CROSSING IN THE NIGHT AND
MACHINE GUN NESTS SOMEWHERE.
BY THE WAY, I AM ONLY SLIGHTLY
DRAMATIZING MY FEARS.
IN FACT, WE GOT TO A VERY
QUIET BORDER CROSSING.
I HAD TO KNOCK ON THE WINDOW
AND WAKE THIS GUY UP
FROM CUSTOMS AND
IMMIGRATION TO LET HIM KNOW
THAT WE WERE HERE.
AND HE LOOKED UP FROM
HIS CHAIR AND HE SAID,
WHERE YOU GOING?
I SAID, SKIING - THAT
WAS MY BIG COVER STORY.
AND HE SAID,
HAVE A GOOD TIME!
AND HERE WAS THIS DRAMA, WHICH
IT'S DIFFICULT TO DESCRIBE.
WE HAVE IN OUR
IMAGINATIONS OTHER DRAMAS
OF IMMIGRANTS' DEPARTURES.
WE THINK OF PRE-WAR GERMANY
OR WE THINK OF HUNGARY
IN 1956; IT WAS
VERY DRAMATIC.
AND I REALIZED AT THAT
INSTANT THAT I WAS IN
A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, WHERE
I WAS NOT BREAKING A LAW,
WHERE MY POLITICS MIGHT
EVEN BE SEEN AS AN ASSET,
RATHER THAN A LIABILITY,
AND WHERE MY LIFE
WAS BEGINNING ALL OVER
AGAIN AT THE AGE OF...
21, 22.
AND THEN WE DROVE INTO
MONTREAL, AND, AS I SAY,
TWO, THREE MORNINGS LATER
RIGHT AFTER CHRISTMAS
THAT YEAR, I WENT TO CJAD
AND MY NEW LIFE BEGAN.
AND IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME
THAT I WOULD RESUME MY OLD ONE.
I THINK ROBERT FROST SAYS,
HOME IS THE PLACE WHERE
WHEN YOU GO THERE, THEY
HAVE TO LET YOU IN.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO
LET ME IN TO CANADA.
THEY DIDN'T; IT WAS
EVEN POLITICALLY VERY
INCONVENIENT FOR THEM TO
HAVE DONE SO, IN THOSE DAYS.
THEY DID, AND MY GRATITUDE
WAS INSTANTANEOUS.

Richard says YOU'VE HAD A VERY GOOD AND
SUCCESSFUL CAREER IN CANADA.
DO YOU OFTEN THINK IT
WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
THAT SUCCESSFUL IN THE
STATES, OR WHAT DO YOU THINK
WOULD HAVE
HAPPENED TO YOU?

Andy says WHO KNOWS.
THAT'S ONE OF THOSE,
WOULD-HAVE-BEENS,
COULD-HAVE-BEENS THAT WE ALL
ASK OURSELVES ALL THE TIME.
THIS IS A REALLY
WEIRD DIGRESSION, RICHARD.
SOMETIMES I THINK THAT
THERE ARE THOSE OF US
WHO ARE BORN IN ONE COUNTRY,
BUT ARE REALLY NATIONALS
OF ANOTHER, FROM THE
FIRST BREATH WE TAKE.
AND THIS IS MY
WEIRD COMPARISON,
IT'S LIKE WHAT
TRANSSEXUALS SAY,
ABOUT I'M A MAN CAUGHT IN A
WOMAN'S BODY, OR WHATEVER.

Richard says YOU WERE A CANADIAN CAUGHT
IN AN AMERICAN'S BODY.

Andy says ALTHOUGH I WON ALL SORTS OF
AWARDS AND THINGS IN SCHOOLS
AND I LOOKED LIKE A
PERFECTLY SOCIALIZED
AMERICAN, I WAS
A CANADIAN.
I KNOW PEOPLE WHO'VE
NEVER BEEN IN ITALY,
BUT HAVE READ ENOUGH ABOUT
IT AND SEEN ENOUGH MOVIES
THAT THEY'RE CONVINCED
THAT AN ITALIAN SOUL
BEATS WITHIN THEM.
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT
WHAT BEGAN THIS COUNTRY,
THE UNITED EMPIRE LOYALISTS,
THE ANTI-REVOLUTIONARIES,
WHO CAME TO CANADA BECAUSE
THEY WANTED NO PART
OF THE WAR WITH BRITAIN, MAYBE
THAT'S THE CASE, WHO KNOWS?
SO, I'VE FOUND
MYSELF WONDERING,
HAD I STAYED IN THE STATES,
WOULD THE SAME THINGS THAT
DISAFFECTED ME ABOUT VIETNAM
HAVE GONE ON DISAFFECTING ME
ABOUT OTHER THINGS?
AND THERE ARE A LOT
OF THEM DOWN THERE,
ONE OF THESE BITTER
AMERICANS CONSTANTLY AT WAR
WITH WHAT HIS GOVERNMENT
says HIS COUNTRY'S ABOUT.
I CAME TO CANADA, I FOUND
A COMMUNALISTIC VERSUS
THE INDIVIDUALISTIC
SOCIETY.
AND I TOOK TO IT, I FIT
INTO IT, I LIKED IT A LOT.

Richard says I REMEMBER A COUPLE OF
YEARS AGO HAVING A LUNCH
WITH YOU WHERE YOU WENT ON
VERY PASSIONATELY ABOUT WHY
YOU HAD CHOSEN AFTER SEVERAL
YEARS TO FINALLY BECOME
A CANADIAN CITIZEN AND WHY IT
MEANT A GREAT DEAL TO YOU.
WHAT TRIGGERED THAT PATHWAY
FOR YOU, THAT YOU...

Andy says I WOULD HAVE BECOME A
CANADIAN CITIZEN THE DAY
I ARRIVED, OR THE
DAY I QUALIFIED.
PEOPLE WERE WARNING
ME, INCLUDING LAWYERS,
THAT IF I DID SO, I
MIGHT NEVER BE ALLOWED
TO EVEN RETURN AND SEE MY
PARENTS IN THE STATES.
THIS WAS PART OF THE
PARANOIA THAT PERSISTED
LONG AFTER VIETNAM WAS OVER
AND SORT OF REIGNITED
WHEN REAGAN WAS IN
THE WHITE HOUSE.
THE ONLY REASON I DIDN'T
FOR YEARS WAS BECAUSE I WAS
FEARFUL AND THE CANADIAN
GOVERNMENT DIDN'T REQUIRE ME
TO BE A CITIZEN, BUT I
DID FEEL KIND OF BOGUS.
I FELT: WHAT AM
I DOING HERE?
IT'S SORT OF LIKE LIVING
TOGETHER WHEN THE WORLD
IS ASKING, WHY DON'T
YOU GET MARRIED?
SOME PEOPLE WOULD
IGNORE THAT,
BUT I FELT I NEEDED
TO MARRY CANADA.
AND WHEN I DID,
IT WAS WONDERFUL.
AND I'VE DISCUSSED THIS
WITH OTHER IMMIGRANTS.
THERE'S A PECULIAR WAY IN WHICH
UNTIL YOU BECOME A CITIZEN
YOU FEEL DISQUALIFIED TO
CRITICIZE THE COUNTRY.
YOU STILL FEEL
LIKE A GUEST.
SO, I WAS A LITTLE
MORE POLLYANNAISH.
ONCE I BECAME A CITIZEN,
NOT ONLY WAS I ENTITLED
THE VOTE, BUT I
WAS ENTITLED...

Richard says EVERYTHING.

Andy says EVEN TO FIND FAULT ONCE IN
A WHILE WITH THIS PEERLESS
NATION THAT I'D ADOPTED,
RATHER THAN GIVEN BIRTH TO,
SO TO SPEAK.

Richard says WHAT ABOUT AMERICA?
WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME
YOU WERE ABLE TO GO BACK
AFTER YOU LEFT THAT
CHRISTMAS EVE?

Andy says FIVE YEARS LATER.
IT'S A STORY THAT REALLY
ISN'T TERRIBLY WELL KNOWN,
BUT THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS - I MEAN THAT
LITERALLY - OF PEOPLE LIKE
ME WHO'D EITHER DESERTED
OR DODGED THE DRAFT.
AND THERE HAD BEEN
TWO AMNESTIES,
AND THEY'D BEEN
WRETCHED FAILURES.
NO ONE WAS GOING TO
GO BACK TO THE STATES
AND APOLOGIZE
FOR HAVING LEFT.
SO, WHAT THEY BEGAN VERY
QUIETLY DOING IS DROPPING
THE CASES AGAINST EVERYBODY,
AND THE WORD CAME UP THAT
IF I WENT BACK TO THE
STATES, TURNED MYSELF
INTO AN ARMY BASE, I WOULD
IMMEDIATELY BE DISCHARGED,
NOT DISHONOURABLY,
AND I'D BE ALLOWED
TO CONTINUE
WITH MY LIFE.
SO, I WENT DOWN
TO THE STATES,
FOUND MYSELF IN A BARRACKS
FULL OF CANADIANS FROM ALL
ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO'D
GOTTEN THE SAME WORD.
WE MARCHED OFF IN OUR NEWLY
ISSUED U.S. ARMY UNIFORMS,
WHICH WE HAD TO WEAR
FOR THE WEEKEND
WHILE ALL THIS
WAS GOING ON.
WE MARCHED OFF TO BREAKFAST...
I'LL NEVER FORGET THIS,
RICHARD - AND ONE OF THE
GUYS IN THE FRONT BEGAN
WHISTLING, “O CANADA.”
NOW, THIS IS LIKE
BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI.
HE BEGINS WHISTLING,
“O CANADA,”
AND ALL THE REST
OF US PICK IT UP.
THE CORPORALS WHO WEREN'T
EVEN ALIVE PROBABLY DURING
VIETNAM WHO WERE HEARING
THIS HAD NO IDEA WHAT THEY
WERE LISTENING TO, BUT
WE KNOW WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
AND WE GO MARCHING OFF
TO HAVE OUR BREAKFAST,
GET OUR PAPERS, AND THEN
WE ALL - EVERY ONE OF US -
RESUMED OUR LIVES.
WE ALL TALKED ABOUT IT THAT
NIGHT BEFORE, IN CANADA.
SO, WE WANTED, I GUESS, OUR
STATUS BACK SO WE COULD
VISIT OUR FAMILIES, BUT
WE KNEW WHO WE WERE
AT THAT POINT; WE WERE
NO LONGER AMERICANS.

Richard says WAS THERE EVER A FEAR IN
THAT WEEKEND THAT THEY WERE
SUDDENLY GOING TO
COME TO YOU AND SAY,
GOTCHA - YOU'RE BACK?

Andy says YEAH, I...
I HONOUR A LOT MORE
THAN I MIGHT HAVE.
WHEN I WAS IN MONTREAL
DOING OPEN LINE,
I'D OCCASIONALLY HEAR FROM
PEOPLE WHO WERE REFUGEES
FROM EASTERN EUROPE WHO
WOULD SEE IN THE PARTI
QUEBECOIS FASCIST THREATS,
WHICH I THOUGHT
WAS A LITTLE EXCESSIVE.
AND I BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND,
AS I WENT THROUGH THIS,
WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE EVER
BEEN AFRAID THAT EITHER
YOUR LIFE WOULD BE TAKEN,
OR YOU WOULD BE FORCED
AGAINST YOUR CONSCIENCE TO
DO SOMETHING TRULY AWFUL.
SO, IT TOOK A
WHILE TO CALM DOWN
AND TO ACCEPT
THAT IT WAS SAFE.
THE UNITED STATES WAS
GETTING ON WITH ITS BUSINESS
AND LIVING WITHOUT ME
APPARENTLY QUITE WELL,
AND THAT I COULD
CONTINUE MY LIFE HERE
AND NOT HAVE TO THINK
TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT.

Richard says YOUR LIFE HERE, AS WE
SAID WHEN WE STARTED OUT,
ONE OF THE MOST LISTENED
TO PEOPLE IN THE MORNING,
PEOPLE TRUST YOU, THEY PUT
ALL THIS FAITH INTO YOU.
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS,
WHY DO YOU THINK
IN THIS NEW TECHNOLOGICAL
SOCIETY, WHERE TELEVISION
IS BECOMING OUTDATED, PRINT
IS BECOMING OUTDATED,
PEOPLE STILL FEEL THE NEED
TO TURN ON THAT LITTLE BOX
WITH NO PICTURES AND
HEAR YOU EVERY MORNING?

Andy says BECAUSE IT'S WHAT WE'RE
DOING RIGHT HERE:
IT'S CONVERSATION.
NOW, THE JOURNALISTS
WHO WORK AT THE CBC -
ALL OF US, INCLUDING
MYSELF - WOULD LOVE TO
BELIEVE THAT WHAT YOU'RE
TUNING IN TO EVERY DAY,
AS PEOPLE DID FOR
GZOWSKI AND FOR AVRIL
AND MICHAEL ENRIGHT NOW
IS THE INFORMATION.
THEY WANT TO HEAR THE
BRILLIANT INTERVIEW,
THEY WANT TO
HEAR THE AUTHOR,
THEY WANT TO HEAR THE
DOCUMENTARY OR THE DRAMA -
YES, OKAY.
BUT WHAT RADIO SATISFIES,
THAT AGAIN I'M CONVINCED TV
WILL NOT, IS A BASIC HUNGER
FOR ONE-ON-ONE CONTACT.
AND WHEN THE PERSON ON
THE RADIO SAYS, YOU...
YOU THINK IN TELEVISION,
PEOPLE ON TELEVISION -
MAY I USE THIS CAMERA?
THEY RARELY LOOK
INTO THE CAMERA.
THEY GO LIKE THIS, AND
YOU'RE CONSTANTLY AWARE
THAT THERE'S SO MANY
OTHER PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
BUT WHEN A PERSON ON
THE RADIO SAYS, YOU,
I THINK YOU THINK, YOU KNOW...
HE'S TALKING TO RICHARD
OUZOUNIAN SITTING IN HIS
UNDERWEAR EATING CORNFLAKES.
AND I THINK THAT THAT'S
A VERY IMMEDIATE NEED
THAT'S MET IN ALL OF
US - IN OUR CARS,
IN OUR LIVING ROOMS,
ON THE BEACH.
AND THAT'S THE REAL POWER
OF THE MEDIUM AND WHY,
WITH ITS DEMISE HAVING BEEN
PREDICTED SO MANY TIMES,
I THINK IT'S GOING
TO SURVIVE FOREVER.

Richard says IT'S A MEDIUM THAT
WILL, AND IT'S A NEED
THAT'LL BE FULFILLED.
AND I HAVE ONE LAST
QUESTION TO ASK YOU,
WHICH EVERYONE IS
GONNA WANT TO KNOW.
HOW EARLY DO YOU
HAVE TO GET UP?

[laughing]

Andy says YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
ALL THAT TERRIBLE.
IT'S WEIRD FOR
OTHER PEOPLE.
I GET UP A LITTLE BIT
BEFORE 4:00 EVERY MORNING.
I PAD OUT, MY PAPERS HAVE
ALREADY BEEN DELIVERED,
I READ THEM SO I KIND
OF WAKE MYSELF UP.
I'M AT WORK A
LITTLE BEFORE 5:00,
WE'RE ON THE
AIR AT 6:00.

Richard says AND THEN YOU WAKE US UP,
AND THE CYCLE CONTINUES.

Andy says AND WE WORK 'TIL THE MIDDLE
OF THE DAY, BY THE WAY;
WE DON'T GO HOME THE
SECOND THE SHOW IS OVER,
BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A
LOT OF WORK TO DO FOR
THE NEXT ONE; BUT
IT'S A GREAT JOB.

Richard says AND KEEP DOING IT.
ANDY, THANK YOU
FOR BEING HERE.

Andy says THANK YOU, RICHARD.

Richard faces the screen and says FOR
DIALOGUE, I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOODBYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Special thanks to Zucca Restaurant.”

Dialogue. A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1999, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Andy Barrie