Transcript: John Gray | Jan 17, 1999

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue. With JOHN GRAY; AUTHOR.”

Richard and John sit on couches. The walls are decorated with oil paintings and there’s a staircase in the background.

Then, Richard appears facing the screen as a caption reads “Richard Ouzounian.” He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a gray suit, a black tie and a gray shirt.

Richard says WELCOME TO DIALOGUE.
I'M RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED UP
ONE OF YOUR OLD FRIENDS
TWENTY YEARS LATER?
MOST OF THEM DON'T
AGE VERY WELL.
THE HAIR'S GONE.
THE WAIST'S THICKENED.
THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH TO SAY,
BUT EVERY NOW AND THEN,
THERE'S A RARE EXCEPTION.
TWENTY YEARS LATER
AND THEY'RE EVEN
BETTER THAN THEY WERE
YOU MEET SOMEBODY
THE FIRST TIME
YOU KNEW THEM.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED
TO MY GUEST AND
HIS LATEST PROJECT.

(LAUGHING)

John is in his sixties, has gray hair, and is wearing a black undershirt, a white un-buttoned shirt, a gray suit, and round glasses.

Richard says HE'S LAUGHING
HYSTERICALLY BECAUSE
HE CANNOT BELIEVE
THAT OLDER IS BETTER.

John says YOU SHOULD SEE
IT FROM THIS SIDE.

(LAUGHING)

Richard says AS USUAL, JUMPING IN AND
USURPING THE CONVERSATION,
THIS DIALOGUE IS
WITH JOHN GRAY.
JOHN, WELCOME, AND
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
BILLY BISHOP GOES TO WAR.
NOW, BILLY BISHOP,
TWENTY YEARS AGO,
WAS REALLY A LAND
BREAKING, IMPORTANT SHOW
IN CANADIAN THEATRE.
TOURED THE COUNTRY.
WENT TO NEW YORK.
EVERYBODY STILL TALKS ABOUT
IT LIKE AN HISTORICAL EVENT,
BUT WHY DO YOU THINK
IT WAS SO IMPORTANT?

A caption on screen reads “John Gray. Author.”

John says WELL, FRANKLY, I
THINK BECAUSE IT WENT
TO NEW YORK CITY AND
IT GOT GOOD REVIEWS.
THAT'S WHAT MADE
IT IMPORTANT.
THE RECORD OF CANADIAN
SHOWS, THEY GO TO NEW YORK,
THEY GET PANNED,
THEY DIE.
AND BILLY BISHOP
DIDN'T GET PANNED.
NOW, IT DID DIE
ON BROADWAY.
IT DIDN'T LAST ON BROADWAY,
BUT IT GOT GOOD REVIEWS
IN TIME MAGAZINE AND
THE NEW YORKER,
AND IT WAS THE FIRST TIME
THAT A CANADIAN SHOW
ON A CANADIAN SUBJECT MATTER,
ABOUT A WAR THAT AMERICA
DIDN'T WIN, YOU KNOW,
HAD ACTUALLY GOTTEN GOOD
REVIEWS, AND IT WAS
DONE IN THE STATES.
IT WAS DONE AND DONE.
IT WAS THE MOST PRODUCED SHOW
IN AMERICA FOR FOUR YEARS.

Richard says NOW, THAT'S WHAT I FIND
AMAZING IS THAT IT WASN'T
JUST THE ORIGINAL PRODUCTION
WITH YOU AND ERIC PETERSON.
BUT IT WENT ON AND LOTS
OF OTHER PEOPLE DID IT.
AND IT THRIVED
AND SUCCEEDED.

John says YEAH, AND IT WAS THE FIRST
ONE TO DO THAT, YOU KNOW?
IT WAS A LITTLE BIT TOO MUCH
FOR US BECAUSE IT WAS THE
SECOND SHOW I EVER WROTE AND
I WAS NOT PREPARED TO BE
SUDDENLY, YOU KNOW, CANADA'S
ENTRY INTO THE OLYMPICS
TO SEE IF I'M GOING TO
GET A GOLD OR WHATEVER.
YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF
MINDSET KIND OF TAKES OVER.

Richard says BUT YOU KNOW WHAT
DID HAPPEN IS,
WHEN YOU CAME
BACK TO CANADA,
YOU DID CONTINUE ON A
REALLY SUCCESSFUL STREAK
WITH THINGS LIKE 18 WHEELS
AND DON MESSER'S JUBILEE,
AND ROCK AND ROLL.

John says FOR A WHILE THERE.
THE DOWNTURN WAS
INEVITABLE, RICHARD.

(LAUGHING)

Richard says WELL, NO, JUST ONE OF THE
THINGS I'M CURIOUS ABOUT.
FOR A DECADE, ANYTHING
YOU WROTE WAS DONE
ALL OVER THE COUNTRY
AND WAS WILDLY SUCCESSFUL.
DID YOU CHANGE?
DID YOU COUNTRY CHANGE?

John says I THINK IT WAS BOTH.
I THINK I CHANGED IN THE
SENSE THAT YOU KNOW YOURSELF
AS YOU GET OLDER AND YOU
GET SUPPOSEDLY BETTER AT -
YOU MAY BE GETTING
BETTER, YOU MAY NOT,
THAT'S A DEBATABLE THING.
BUT ONE THING YOU DO GET IS
YOU GET MORE COMPLICATED.
YOUR WRITING GETS
MORE COMPLICATED,
AND THAT'S NOT THE WAY
TO WRITE MUSICALS.
YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET
COMPLICATED IF YOU WANT TO
WRITE MUSICALS, AND THAT'S
WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING.
THE OTHER THING IS THAT THE
CANADIAN SCENE CHANGED A LOT.
THE NOTION OF A KIND OF
PAN CANADIAN VISION OR A
PAN CANADIAN SUBJECT MATTER
REALLY STARTED TO DISAPPEAR
IN THE MID '80s WHERE YOU
DIDN'T TALK; YOU TALKED
ABOUT PARTS OF CANADA, OR YOU
TALKED ABOUT NORTH AMERICA,
BUT YOU DIDN'T TALK
ABOUT CANADA AS A DISCRETE
CONCEPT ON ITS OWN.

Richard says WELL, ALSO YOU STOPPED
TALKING ABOUT CANADA, PER SE.
AFTER 18 WHEELS, WHICH
WAS THE TRUCKING LIFE
ACROSS THE COUNTRY,
AND ROCK AND ROLL,
WHICH WAS VERY
AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL,
GROWING UP IN A SMALL
TOWN NOVA SCOTIA,
ROCK AND ROLL
BAND, DON MESSER,
YOU SUDDENLY WENT INTO STUFF
ABOUT A MAN AND HIS BODY
CONFRONTING DEATH OR A PIECE
ABOUT WHERE WE ALL COME FROM
IN TERMS OF OUR SPIRITUALITY
AND OUR GROWTH.

John says YEAH.

Richard says DID YOU DELIBERATELY GO,
ENOUGH OF THE CANADIAN SCHTICK?

John says YEAH, I COULDN'T
TAKE IT ANYMORE.
THERE'S A BACK-SLAPPING
ASPECT TO IT THAT
WILL GET YOU DOWN AFTER
A WHILE, YOU KNOW?
THAT CANADIAN,
WE'RE CANADIAN,
AND THAT'S INTRINSICALLY
A GOOD THING.
AND YOU ASK, WHY IS
IT A GOOD THING?
WHY IS IT IMPORTANT
TO BE CANADIAN?
WELL, IT'S IMPORTANT TO
BE CANADIAN BECAUSE
IT'S IMPORTANT TO
KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO
AND WHERE YOU ARE,
YOU CAN'T BE
EFFECTIVE IN LIFE.
AND SO IF YOU'RE
ON THAT ROAD,
YOU WILL EVENTUALLY BE
GETTING MORE EXISTENTIAL
IN WHAT YOU DO, BECAUSE
THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS
AT THE BEGINNING.
THE WHOLE REASON
I STARTED WRITING
WAS BECAUSE I REMEMBER
WHEN IT HAPPENED. I REMEMBER GOING TO
SEE 1837 AND I REMEMBER
THE FARMER'S REVOLT ABOUT
THE MACKENZIE REBELLION,
AND I REMEMBER GOING
TO THE NECROPOLIS
DOWN IN CABBAGETOWN.
I WAS HERE IN
TORONTO AT THAT TIME.
AND I REMEMBER GOING IN TO
THE GRAVEYARD AND SEEING
MACKENZIE'S GRAVE
AND MATTHEW'S GRAVE,
WHO WERE HANGED AT THE
END OF THAT, RIGHT?
AND I REMEMBER REALIZING
THAT THAT'S THE FIRST TIME
THAT I EVER HAD SEEN
SOMETHING IN A PLAY
AND THEN SEEN
IT IN LIFE.
THAT'S THE FIRST TIME THAT
IT EVER HAPPENED TO ME.
SOME DETAIL, SOME
PERSON, ANYTHING.
HOW MANY COUNTRIES
COULD SAY THAT?
HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT
TO A PERSON FROM FRANCE
OR POLAND OR, YOU KNOW?
I REALIZED JUST,
WHOA, YOU KNOW?

Richard says WELL, I ALSO WAS
THINKING BACK,
THE FIRST TIME I MET YOU,
YOU WERE DIRECTING YOUR
MASTERS THESIS SHOW AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
AND YOU WERE DOING
EDWARD BOND'S SAVED.

John says YEAH. YEAH.

Richard says AND IT WAS
PRETTY GRIM PIECE OF
REALISTIC THEATRE,
AND THEN YOU WENT ON AND YOU
HELPED DEVELOPED TAMAHNOUS
THEATRE COMPANY IN VANCOUVER
WHICH WAS ALSO VERY
CUTTING EDGE AND ALL KINDS
OF EXPERIMENTS OUT THERE.
WHEN JOHN GRAY SUDDENLY
STARTED BECOMING
Mr. CANADIAN FEEL GOOD, WAS
THAT THE REAL YOU COMING OUT,
OR WAS THAT A
POSE, OR WAS IT BOTH?

John says THAT'S INTERESTING.
I WASN'T PREPARED
FOR THAT QUESTION.
I THINK THAT.
WELL, BEFORE I
DID THEATRE,
I PLAYED MUSIC.
I PLAYED WITH A SERIES OF
R and B BANDS NAMED AFTER CARS.
THAT'S WHAT I
DID, ALL RIGHT?
I THOUGHT OF MYSELF
PRIMARILY IN MUSICAL TERMS.
I WAS IN PLAYS BEFORE
I SAW PLAYS, OKAY?
I WAS IN A PLAY
BEFORE I SAW ONE.

Richard says REALLY?

John says YEAH.

Richard says IS THAT GROWING
UP IN TRURO?

John says GROWING UP IN TRURO,
TRY AND SEE A PLAY.
JUST TRY.
WHERE'RE YOU
GOING TO GO?
AND THE PLAYS I DID - I
WAS IN WAITING FOR GODOT
BEFORE I HAD SEEN A
PLAY, OKAY?
SO, MY IDEA OF
WHAT THEATRE WAS,
WAS REALLY DIFFERENT FROM
MY IDEA OF WHAT I HAD
BEEN DOING, WHICH IS PLAYING
ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC.
I THOUGHT THEATRE WAS
EXPERIMENTAL AND EDGY
AND ALL THIS.
THIS IS WHAT I THOUGHT
WAS INTRINSIC TO IT.
SO IT WAS NATURAL WHEN I
WENT IN A THEATRE,
FOR A LONG TIME,
THAT'S WHAT I PURSUED
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I
THOUGHT THEATRE WAS.
AND THEN I HAD THAT SUDDEN
KIND OF ST. PAUL ON THE ROAD
TO DAMASCUS REALIZATION THAT
ROCK AND ROLL IS THEATRE, TOO.
THAT A ROCK-AND-ROLL
CONCERT IS IN ITS WAY THEATRE
AND THAT IF YOU TAKE
THAT FORUM AND USE IT
IN A STORYTELLING WAY,
YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING
THAT'S FAR CLOSER TO
THE GROUND IN CANADA,
THAT'S GOING TO
WORK BETTER.
AND THAT WAS WHEN ALL MY
STUFF THAT I ALREADY KNEW.
THE MUSICAL STUFF, SUDDENLY
ALL PILED IN, YOU KNOW?
LIKE PEOPLE WHEN I STARTED
WRITING STUFF AND PLAYING
STUFF DIDN'T KNOW I COULD
PLAY THE PIANO, FOR EXAMPLE,
NOBODY KNEW.
HADN'T THOUGHT THAT
THAT WAS RELEVANT.

Richard says SO IT REALLY WASN'T
TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

John says THAT WAS A RAMBLING
ANSWER, I'M SORRY.
John says NO, NO, NO, BUT IT WAS
A DIFFERENT SIDE OF YOU.

Richard says IT WAS, BUT ONE THAT I
NEVER THOUGHT WAS RELEVANT
UNTIL I WAS IN
MY THIRTIES, REALLY.

John says AND THEN, AGAIN
WHAT'S INTERESTING IS,
IF YOU LOOK AT
ALL YOUR WORKS,
LIKE 18 WHEELS AND ROCK AND
ROLL, AND EVEN DON MESSER,
THERE'S A VEIN OF DARKNESS
THAT RUNS THROUGH ALL OF THEM.
ONE OF THE BIG
SECTIONS OF 18 WHEELS
IS THE HIGHWAY GOTHIC ABOUT
PEOPLE GETTING KILLED.

Richard says OH, YEAH.

John says AND EVEN THE 401, YOUR
BIG CONCLUSION THERE,
IS ABOUT HOW DEATH CAN
LURK ON THE 401 AS WELL.

Richard says OH, YEAH.

John says BUT BECAUSE IT
WAS A MUSICAL,
PEOPLE THOUGHT IT
WAS EASIER TO TAKE.

Richard WELL, BECAUSE IT FITS
INTO A SONGWRITING GENRE.
YOU CAN DO VERY DARK
THINGS IN A SONG FORM,
BUT THE FACT THAT
IT'S DONE AS A SONG
PUTS A FRAME AROUND IT.
IT'S NO LONGER PEOPLE
IN YOUR FACE, YOU KNOW?
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THE
STUFF I WAS DOING BEFORE,
THAT SO-CALLED EXPERIMENTAL,
WHICH IT WASN'T, REALLY.
A LOT OF THE TIME I WAS
JUST REPEATING OTHER
PEOPLE'S EXPERIMENTS,
IS WHAT I WAS DOING.

BUT THAT'S WHAT WE ALL
DO WHEN WE'RE YOUNG
AND YOU FIND OUT YOUR
OWN EXPERIMENTS.

John says BUT THAT KIND OF IN YOUR
FACE WHERE YOU'RE ACTUALLY
JUMPING ON PEOPLE AND
YELLING AT THEM, YOU KNOW,
WHAT WE DID, THAT STUFF,
AND THAT, IT DOESN'T WORK
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T
HAVE A FRAME AROUND IT,
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING
WORDS IN THE WORLD
TO ME IS TO ACT.
BECAUSE TO ACT MEANS BOTH
TO PERFORM AN ACTION AND
TO PRETEND TO PERFORM AN
ACTION, I.E., NOT TO.

Richard says RIGHT.
IF YOU ACT YOU ARE
PERFORMING AN ACTION.
YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING.
BUT IF YOU ACT, YOU'RE
PRETENDING TO, RIGHT?
NOW, SO WHAT
YOU'RE DOING IS,
YOU'RE DANGLING BETWEEN TWO
TOTAL OPPOSITE CONCEPTS
WHEN YOU'RE ON THE STAGE,
AND GOD HELP YOU IF YOU GO
TOO CLOSE TO ONE
OR THE OTHER.
AND I THINK I WENT TOO CLOSE
TO THAT REALITY OF THAT YOU
MUST GO INTO THE THEATRE
AND EXPERIENCE REALITY,
AND THAT'S NOT WHAT
THE THEATRE'S FOR.
IT'S SOMEWHERE BALANCING
BETWEEN THE TWO IN A WAY.

Richard says I'M ALSO WONDERING IF
BECAUSE YOUR FAME AS
A PLAYWRIGHT BOUGHT
YOU THE RIGHT TO BE-SO-CALLED.

John says WELL, NO, YOU'RE THE MOST
SUCCESSFUL PLAYWRIGHT
FOR A LONG, LONG
PERIOD IN THE COUNTRY,
PROBABLY ARGUABLY
STILL ARE.
THERE'S STILL PEOPLE
DOING BILLY BISHOP
OTHER THAN YOU EVERYWHERE AND
THEY'RE DOING 18 WHEELS.
THERE PEOPLE WHO READ
SPORTS WHO ARE MORE FAMOUS
THAN I AM, RICHARD.

Richard says WELL, OKAY, BUT AS A WRITER,
YOU MAKE AN IMPRESSION.
AND THEN THAT IMPRESSION
ALLOWED YOU TO BECOME
A PERSONALITY.
YOU APPEARED ON THE JOURNAL
FOR A LONG TIME DOING
YOUR SATIRICAL SONGS.
YOU BECAME EVERYBODY'S
FAVOURITE CURMUDGEON
ON PANELS AND
WRITING AND STUFF.

John says YES, I PROSTHELYTIZED
AT TIMES, YES.

Richard says WELL, I'M WONDERING, YOU
GOT TO SAY WHAT WAS ON
YOUR MIND IN THOSE THINGS,
DID THAT DILUTE THE DESIRE
TO SAY WHAT WAS ON
YOUR MIND IN PLAYS?

John says WELL, THE PROBLEM IS, I CAN
ONLY WRITE ABOUT ONE MUSICAL
EVERY FIVE YEARS.
I JUST CAN'T DO IT.
TO ENTERTAIN PEOPLE
FOR TWO HOURS
IS SUCH A MONUMENTAL
TASK, AS YOU KNOW.
ANYONE CAN ENTERTAIN
PEOPLE FOR FIVE MINUTES
OR TEN MINUTES.
ONCE YOU GET PAST 20, IT
BECOMES EVERY MINUTE
IS GEOMETRICALLY MORE DIFFICULT
TO KEEP PEOPLE INTERESTED.
IT REQUIRES SO MUCH
THOUGHT AND SO MUCH TIME,
AND THERE ARE SOME IDEAS
THAT YOU KNOW WILL NOT
GO PAST TWENTY MINUTES.

Richard says RIGHT.

John says AND SOME IDEAS WILL
NOT GO PAST FIVE MINUTES.
I GOT LUCKY
THERE, YOU SEE?
WHILE I'M WAITING FOR THE
IDEA THAT MIGHT HAVE
THE LEGS THAT WILL TAKE ME
THROUGH A TWO-HOUR RANT,
I COULD ALSO HAVE A MEDIUM
WHERE I COULD ACTUALLY
DO THE FIVE-MINUTE IDEAS,
LIKE THE JOURNAL.
THOSE ARE
FIVE-MINUTE IDEAS.
THOSE ARE NOT
TWO-HOUR IDEAS.
NONE OF THOSE VIDEOS
HAVE ANY LIFE BEYOND
WHAT I GAVE IT, OKAY?
AND THEN THE YAKKING, THE
KIND OF THE PROSTHELYTIZING
ABOUT THIS, THOSE ARE
10-, 15-MINUTE IDEAS.
THOSE HAVE NO LIFE
BEYOND THAT, RIGHT?
SO I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH THAT A
COUPLE OF PEOPLE COULD SEE
MY POTENTIAL IN THOSE SO
THAT I COULD ACTUALLY FIND
AN OUTLET FOR THOSE WHILE
I'M WAITING FOR A BIG ONE,
BUT IT'S A LONG
WAIT FOR A BIG ONE.
I DON'T HAVE THAT MANY
IN ME ALL THE TIME.

Richard says SO, I MEAN, THE STUFF
THAT HAPPENED IN A PERIOD
OF ABOUT SEVEN YEARS WHEN YOU
WROTE FOUR MAJOR MUSICALS,
WAS THAT A FUNCTION
ALSO OF YOUTH?

John says OH, THAT WASN'T
SEVEN YEARS, RICHARD.

Richard says WASN'T IT?

John says OH, NO, NO.

Richard says LIKE '77 TO '85.

John says '77, THEN THERE WAS
19-

(MIXED VOICES)

Richard says YEAH, SEE FROM
BILLY BISHOP.

John says THAT WAS PRETTY
FAST, YEAH.

Richard says I DID MY HOMEWORK, FROM
BILLY BISHOP TO DON MESSER.

John says YOU'RE RIGHT, ACTUALLY.
THAT WAS QUITE A SLEW
OF THEM, WASN'T IT?
GEE WHIZ, I HAVE
NO ANSWER FOR THAT.
I GUESS I JUST MUST
HAVE HAD THEM
KIND OF PILED UP.
THEY WERE INSIDE YOU.

Richard says YEAH, I GUESS.

John says NOW, WHEN YOU CAME BACK
TO REVISIT ONE OF THEM -
I MEAN, I'M CURIOUS.
WHAT MADE YOU AND ERIC
DECIDE TO GO BACK AND REDO
BILLY BISHOP TWENTY
YEARS LATER?

Richard says IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT
WE WERE ACTUALLY OF AN AGE
THAT BILLY BISHOP WAS
AT ANY TIME IN THE PLAY.

John says REALLY?

Richard says AT THE END OF THE PLAY,
WHEN HE IS GIVING THE SPEECH -
HE'S GIVING THE SPEECH
TO THE TROOPS
IN A WINGS PARADE,
RIGHT, IN WORLD WAR II.
AND HE WAS THE SAME
AGE THAT WE ARE NOW,
WITHIN A YEAR OR SO.
EVERY OTHER TIME
WHEN WE DID IT,
WE WERE LIKE, HE'S A
30-YEAR OLD TRYING TO PLAY
A 20-YEAR OLD, RIGHT?
AND SO WHAT YOU REALLY
DO IS YOU FUDGE IT.
THE NARRATOR
BILLY BISHOP,
TELLING THE STORY,
IS MAYBE SLIGHTLY AHEAD
OF THE EVENT THAT
HE'S TALKING ABOUT.
HE KEEPS CHANGING
AS THE SHOW GOES ON.
THERE IS NO CONSISTENT
PLATFORM FOR HIM OTHER THAN
A GENERALIZED KIND OF YOUNG
CANADIAN RECOGNIZABLE
YOUNG CANADIAN GROWING
UP KIND OF THING.
SO IN A WAY, THE LEAST OF
ALL THE 14 OR 15 PARTS
THAT ARE PLAYS IN THAT SHOW,
THE LEAST INTERESTING
CHARACTER WAS
BISHOP THEN, RIGHT?
BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY THE
ACTOR DOING A DANCING
MONKEY ACT, OR DOING HIS
NUT KIND OF THING, RIGHT?
NOW IN THIS ONE, THE MOST
INTERESTING IS BISHOP.
YOU'VE GOT THIS GUY
CONSISTENTLY LOOKING AT IT
FROM 20 YEARS LATER.
SO, WHEN IT'S TALKING
ABOUT SURVIVAL,
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT FROM
A WHOLE NEW POINT OF VIEW.
WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT
FROM A TIME WHEN YOU'RE OLD
ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT
YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE.
SO HAVING SURVIVED THE WAR
IS A TWO-EDGED SWORD, RIGHT?
THAT IN LIFE,
IF YOU SURVIVE,
YOU GET TO SEE YOUR
FRIENDS DIE, YOU KNOW,
AND THAT'S WHAT
HE'S EXPERIENCED,
BUT HE KNOWS THAT HIS
SURVIVAL IS NOT GUARANTEED.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT - IT'S MUCH
MORE ABOUT MEMORY AND
ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP
TO OUR PAST AND TO
THOSE EVENTS, YOU KNOW?
Richard says I MEAN, NOT A LOT
OF WRITING CHANGED
THE SHOW IF I'M
CORRECT, RIGHT?

John says NO, IT DIDN'T, NO.

Richard says MAYBE ONE SONG
AND A LITTLE BIT OF -

John says ONE SONG I CHANGED BECAUSE
I COULD IMPROVE IT,
AND THEN WE TOOK WHAT WAS
THE LAST SPEECH BEFORE
AND WE BOOK-ENDED
THE SHOW WITH IT.
WE PUT IT OFF THE TOP TO
LET PEOPLE KNOW WHEN HE'S
TELLING THE PLATFORM, WHERE
HE'S TALKING FROM, YEAH.

Richard says WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS
WHEN YOU SEE THE SHOW AGAIN,
THERE'S ITEMS NOW HAVE
A LOT MORE WEIGHT
AND THEY REGISTER MORE.

John says YEAH, YEAH, FOR US TOO.

Richard says I MEAN, THE LONG
STORY OF ALBERT BALL,
THE GREAT WORLD WAR I
BRITISH FIGHTING ACE.
SUDDENLY TO ME, THAT
SEEMS LIKE THE HEART
OF THE PLAY NOW AND IT
RESONATES SO MUCH.
IS IT JUST BECAUSE
YOU'RE OLDER OR IS IT
BECAUSE WE'RE ALL OLDER?

John says WELL, I MEAN, WHEN I WAS
WRITING BACK THEN ABOUT
VIOLENT DEATH AND ABOUT
PEOPLE DYING AND OF LOSS,
OF LOSING FRIENDS
AND FRIENDS DYING,
IT HADN'T
HAPPENED TO ME.
IT WAS TOTALLY THE
THEORETICAL.
I WAS EITHER TRYING
TO INTERPOLATE
WHAT PEOPLE MUST FEEL
OR MAYBE TALKING ABOUT
MY OWN FEAR OF IT, OR
WHATEVER, YOU KNOW?
BUT, BOY, SINCE THEN, HAVE
WE LOST A LOT OF FRIENDS.
I MEAN, THE WHOLE
AIDS EPIDEMIC.
AND THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE
GONE AND WHO SHOULDN'T
HAVE DIED, YOU KNOW?
THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED;
AND THAT SENSE OF IT,
THAT HAS A REALITY,
BOTH ERIC AND I,
BOTH OUR PARENTS DIED.
ERIC LOST A BROTHER.
DIRECTOR LARRY LILLO
WHO DIRECTED ALMOST
ALL MY SHOWS AND THE STAGE
MANAGER FOR BILLY BISHOP,
HE DIED OF AIDS.
ALL THAT IS VERY
MUCH IN THERE FOR US.
IT REALLY AFFECTED IT IN A
WAY THAT WE NEVER EXPECTED.

Richard says AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW
THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN
WHEN YOU RE-DID IT.

John says NO, NO, NOT UNTIL
WE WERE DOING IT.
WE WOULD FIND OURSELVES
MOVED BY THINGS THAT WE
REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE
WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE.

Richard says I HAVE TO
SHARE WITH YOU.
THERE'S A FEAR I FELT WHEN
I HEARD YOU GUYS WERE DOING
THE TOUR AGAIN, WHICH WAS,
WHAT IF WE DON'T THINK
THE SHOW IS AS GOOD
AS IT USED TO BE?
DID YOU FEAR THAT?

John says YEAH.
WELL, WE HAD A
RUNNING GAG.
WE WERE INVENTING
HEADLINES FOR REVIEWS:
“WHAT THE RED BARON COULD
NOT DO TO BILLY BISHOP
IN 72 KILLS, PETERSON
AND GRAY MANAGED TO DO
BY TRYING TO
BRING IT BACK.”
WE SAW OURSELVES AS BEING
LIKE POSSIBLY LIKE
YUL BRYNNER TRYING TO -

(LAUGHING)

John continues OR WE HAD, “BILLY BISHOP
SHOT DOWN IN FLAMES!”
NO, NO, WE HAD THIS WHOLE
VISION OF THESE TWO
OLD JACKASSES TRYING
TO KIND OF FLOG
THEIR TIRED OLD
TRICKS ONE MORE TIME.
WE WERE REALLY
AFRAID OF THAT,
AND IN FACT I THINK
THAT PROBABLY HELPED
BECAUSE WE
REHEARSED IT.
THIS VERSION OF THE
SHOW IS MORE REHEARSED
PROBABLY THAN THE FIRST
ONE, ON OUR OWN MONEY.
BECAUSE WE KNEW WE
WERE GOING TO HAVE
THE STANDARD CANADIAN
THREE-WEEK REHEARSAL PERIOD.

Richard says RIGHT.

John says SO WE SPENT AT LEAST THREE
WEEKS OF IT OURSELVES,
LIKE, IN VANCOUVER
WORKING IT.
WE HAD SUE LEPAGE, DESIGNER,
OVER TO VANCOUVER FOR A WEEK
TO SPEND ON IT AND STUFF.
I MEAN, THIS SHOW
HAS BEEN WORKED.
IT'S NOT SIMPLY A
REMOUNT THAT WAY.
IT'S BEEN WORKED MORE
THAN ACTUALLY MOST
OF THE MUSICALS THAT
I'VE WRITTEN IN THE LAST
TEN YEARS GONE, REALLY.
Richard says BUT IF YOU HAD THESE FEARS,
WHY DID YOU FEEL YOU HAD TO
GO AHEAD AND DO
IT ANYWAY?

John says WELL YOU CAN'T BE
MOTIVATED BY THAT.
YOU HAVE TO TRY IT.
YOU HAD TO TRY IT.
WE REALLY DID BECAUSE YOU
ALSO WANT TO FIND OUT
IF WE'VE LEARNED
ANYTHING, TOO.
ARE WE ANY
BETTER, YOU KNOW?
AND YOU CAN FEEL IT
YOURSELF IF YOU ARE.
AND WHEN WE WOULD START
TO JUST SING THROUGH IT
ON MY PIANO IN THE DINING
ROOM, WE WOULD KIND OF GO,
YEAH, WE CAN DO THIS.
WE KNOW MORE
THAN WE DID THEN.

Richard says NOW, BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE
MAN, IT'S ALSO THE MOMENT,
AND 20 YEARS AGO, BILLY
BISHOP WAS AT THE RIGHT
PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME.
WHAT DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THE
STATE OF CANADIAN THEATRE
AT THIS POINT?
DID YOU THINK IT WAS READY
TO HEAR BILLY BISHOP AGAIN,
OR NEEDED TO
HEAR IT AGAIN?

John says WELL, WE WERE BY NO
MEANS GOING TO GO INTO
SOME KIND OF COMMERCIAL
RUN OF IT BECAUSE I DO NOT
BELIEVE THAT BILLY
BISHOP HAS THE INTRINSIC
DRAWING POWER, THE KIND OF
MARQUEE VALUE, YOU KNOW,
WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT DRAWS -
IT DOESN'T HAVE THAT.
IT'S JUST TWO
GUYS, YOU KNOW?
IF YOU GOT A
SUBSCRIPTION HOUSE,
THE WORD OF MOUTH WILL
TAKE IT BECAUSE PEOPLE
GET REALLY
ATTACHED TO IT.
WE GOT A SITUATION THAT
WE WANTED, YOU KNOW?
PEOPLE WHO SAW THE PLAY
20 YEARS AGO AND BROUGHT
THEIR PARENTS, BECAUSE
IT WAS A SHOW YOU
COULD BRING YOUR
PARENTS TO.
REMEMBER THE FEW SHOWS,
THERE WEREN'T VERY
MANY OF THOSE
BACK THEN.

Richard says YOU'LL LIKE THIS, MOM AND
DAD, IT'S ABOUT THE WAR.

John says YOU COULD COME AND YOU
WON'T BE EMBARRASSED.
NOBODY'S GOING TO SWEAR.
NOBODY'S GOING TO
SAY ANYTHING BAD.

Richard says PISS HOLES IN THE
SNOW, THAT'S THE WORST.

John says THAT'S THE WORST, YES.
NOW PEOPLE BRING
THEIR KIDS, YOU KNOW,
SO WHAT WE'RE REALLY
MARKETING, I GUESS,
IS CONTINUITY.
THAT WHAT WE'RE GAMBLING ON
AND WHAT WE FIGURE IS THAT
THE STORY ITSELF IS ONE OF
THOSE STORIES LIKE A BIBLE
STORY AND WE STARTED
TO REALIZE THAT.
IT'S THIS SIMPLE STORY THAT
CARRIES ALL THIS RESONANCE
THAT SO MUCH IS KIND OF
BOUNCING OFF THAT STORY,
THAT IT'S LIKE ADAM
AND EVE OR JOSEPH.
IT'S A VERY POWERFUL
LITTLE STORY.
WE FIGURED
IT WAS WORTH IT,
THAT IT WOULD HAVE THE
SAME RESONANCE NOW, SURE.

Richard says HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND
ABOUT BILLY BISHOP
HIMSELF OVER 20 YEARS?

John says YEAH, I LIKE THIS GUY A LOT
MORE THAN I LIKED THE LAST GUY.
I WAS NEVER TOO FOND
OF THE LAST GUY.

Richard says HOW COME?

John says I WAS ALWAYS VERY
AMBIVALENT ABOUT HIM.
FOR THE SAME REASON THAT THE
BRITS WERE AMBIVALENT ABOUT HIM.
HE WAS AMBITIOUS.
NAKEDLY AMBITIOUS.
HE WAS A BIT
COLD ABOUT IT.
HE USED HIS PLANE AS A GUN
PLATFORM AND SHOT PEOPLE
WHEN THEY WERE - YOU KNOW,
IN THE LAST GUY IN THE FLIGHT,
USUALLY IN THE BACK AND GOT
OUT BEFORE ANYBODY KNEW.
I MEAN, HE WAS A VERY -
WHICH HE HAD TO BE - BUT
THERE WAS A CHILLING ASPECT
TO THE GUY FOR ME AT THAT TIME.
NOW BECAUSE HE'S
OLDER AND THAT ASPECT,
THAT CHILLING ASPECT, HE
KNOWS IT, TOO, YOU KNOW?
HE KNOWS THAT
ABOUT HIMSELF,
SO I LIKE HIM
BETTER, YOU KNOW?

Richard says WHAT ABOUT YOUR ROLE
AS THE PIANO PLAYER?

John says DON'T FORGET I
PLAYED THE KING.

Richard says YOU PLAYED
THE KING?
THAT'S TRUE.
DO YOU FIND YOU'VE CHANGED
OR WHAT YOU'RE DOING CHANGED?

John says YEAH, THE JOURNAL
CHANGED IT FOR ME.
I'D DONE A LOT OF
SINGING WITH R and B BANDS
LIKE HARMONY SINGING
AND STUFF LIKE THAT,
BUT WE WENT INTO
BILLY BISHOP,
I HADN'T PLAYED THE PIANO
MUCH AND I HADN'T SANG MUCH.
SO, EVEN THROUGHOUT
THE ENTIRE RUN,
I DIDN'T HAVE THE CHOPS THAT
I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE HAD.
WHEN I WAS DOING A VIDEO
A WEEK FOR THE JOURNAL,
I GOT MY SINGING
CHOPS UP BETTER.
MY SINGING IS BETTER.
IT AIN'T GREAT,
BUT IT'S BETTER.
AND MY PIANO CHOPS
ARE WAY, WAY BETTER.
I'D BEEN PRACTISING
ON THE PIANO AND
FROM DOING AMELIA, THE
SHOW ABOUT AMELIA EARHART.
THE ONE THING THAT
DID FOR ME WAS,
I REALLY PRACTISED
INTENSELY FOR A YEAR,
SO MY ACTUAL PIANO
CHOPS ARE VERY GOOD.
AND FOR A GUY LIKE ME, THIS
KIND OF JUNGLE MUSICIAN TYPE
THAT I AM; SO I AM FAR
HAPPIER UP THERE NOW, FAR
LESS THAT I'M TRYING TO
KIND OF PUT SOMETHING OFF
OVER THAT I REALLY AM NOT
EQUIPPED TO PUT OVER.

Richard says SO YOU FEEL MORE
CONFIDENT.

John says YEAH, I AM.

Richard says NOW, YOU RAISED AMELIA,
WHICH IS INTERESTING.
AGAIN, SITTING
ON THE OUTSIDE,
WHEN WE HEARD JOHN GRAY
WANTED TO WRITE A MUSICAL
ABOUT AMELIA EARHART,
WE THOUGHT, WHY?
BECAUSE YOU'VE
HAD BILLY BISHOP.
IS THIS YOUR FEMALE
COMPANION PIECE?
ARE YOU GOING TO
TOUR THEM INTO A REP?
WHAT DREW YOU TO DOING
ANOTHER AIR PERSON?

John says WELL, ONE OF THE THEMES
THAT BILLY BISHOP DOESN'T
TOUCH ON VERY MUCH,
ONLY A COUPLE OF TIMES
IN LITTLE SPEECHES, IS
ACTUAL FLYING ITSELF.
BECAUSE FLYING WASN'T
BILLY BISHOP'S THING.
IT WAS USING IT
FOR A PURPOSE.
IT WAS SHOOTING.

Richard says SHOOTING WAS
HIS THING.

John says BUT TO “FLY.”
IS A ROOT WORD.
IT'S LIKE TO EAT OR TO
WALK; BUT UNLIKE MOST
OTHER ROOT WORDS IN A
LANGUAGE, TO FLY IS NOT
ABOUT THINGS
THAT PEOPLE DO.
IT'S ABOUT SOMETHING
PEOPLE CAN'T DO, RIGHT?
SO IT'S PROBABLY THE
FIRST METAPHOR, TO FLY,
TO RISE ABOVE.
TO TRANSCEND, RIGHT?
AND MOST FLYERS HAVE
THAT EXPERIENCE.
THEY REALLY KNOW
WHAT THAT MEANS.
ANYONE WHO GOES ON THE FIRST
SOLO FLIGHT KNOWS THAT.
BISHOP NEVER
DOES THAT.
AMELIA DID.
SHE HAD THIS
EXPERIENCE, TO FLY,
AND YET SHE WAS TRYING TO
ALWAYS GET HER MYTH, RIGHT,
BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T
REALLY FLY THE PLANE
ON THAT FIRST FLIGHT
ACROSS THE ATLANTIC
WHERE SHE BECAME FAMOUS.
SHE HADN'T FLOWN THE
DAMN PLANE, RIGHT?
SO HERE'S A PERSON WHO IS
A, TRYING TO CATCH UP TO
THEIR OWN MYTH AND TRYING
TO CATCH UP TO THAT
TRANSCENDENT THING
THAT HAD AFFECTED THEM
FROM THE VERY
BEGINNING, RIGHT?
WHICH IS WHY
SHE DISAPPEARED.
SHE JUST FLEW
OFF, RIGHT?
BECAUSE SHE
NEVER COULD.
AND SHE NEVER WOULD.
SHE WOULD NEVER CATCH
UP, AND WE'RE ALL
TRYING TO DO THAT.
YOU KNOW YOURSELF, LIKE A
PERSON WHO'S A TEACHER IS
TEACHING BUT THEY'RE ACTING
THE PART OF A TEACHER.
IF YOU'RE A WRITER, YOU'RE
WRITING BUT YOU'RE ALSO
ACTING THE PART OF
A WRITER, YOU KNOW?
AND BY GOD IT'S A BITCH TO
TRY AND KEEP THAT IN ORDER,
YOU KNOW, SO THAT THE ACTING
PRETENDING YOU'RE A
WRITER DOESN'T OVERSTEP
THE ACTUAL BEING A WRITER,
I MEAN, I THINK FOR EXAMPLE,
RICHLER, MORDECAI RICHLER,
I THINK THAT FOR HIS ACTING
THE PART OF THE WRITER
HAS REALLY OVERSTEPPED HIS
WRITING TO A HUGE DEGREE,
I MEAN, I LOVE THE GUY.
I LOVE A LOT OF HIS WORK,
BUT I THINK THAT'S
HAPPENED TO HIM.
IT CAN HAPPEN TO
ANY OF US.

Richard says KENNETH TYNAN SAID HE
THOUGHT THE TRAGEDY
OF ORSON WELLES WAS THAT HE
WASTED HIS VERY REAL TALENT
CELEBRATING HIS
IMAGINARY GENIUS.

John says EXACTLY, YEAH.
AND YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING
DOES THAT TO YOU
BECAUSE THE WHOLE
MARKETING OF YOURSELF AND
THE WHOLE MARKETING OF YOUR
WORK AND THE WHOLE ASPECT
THAT EVERYONE WANTS
TO BE SEEN, YOU KNOW?
YOU CREATE A VERSION OF
YOURSELF THAT IS ACTUALLY
NOT TRUE AND CAN
YOU HOLD THAT.
CAN YOU PLAY THAT?
I MEAN, THAT'S
WHAT AMELIA-

Richard says I MEAN, YEAH, BECAUSE
YOU'RE DOING THIS THING
OF YOURSELF ON THE
JOURNAL, YOU KNOW, JOHN.

John says YEAH, OH, YEAH.

Richard says EVERY WEEK, CURMUDGEONLY
COMMENTARY TO GO.
THAT'S NOT ALL OF YOU.

John says NO.

Richard says DID YOU START TO FEEL
YOU HAD TO BREAK AWAY
FROM THAT, AS WELL?

John says WELL, ONE THING I DON'T
LIKE DOING IS SCORN.
RICK SALUTIN DOES
SCORN VERY WELL.
I DON'T WANT TO DO
SCORN, YOU KNOW,
BUT IN ORDER TO PLAY THAT
SITUATION IN THE JOURNAL
WHERE I WAS THE KIND
OF RESIDENT SATIRIST.
THE DEAL I MADE
WITH THEM WAS,
YOU TELL ME WHAT THE
SUBJECT MATTER IS.
I'LL DO IT AND DO
WHAT I WANT, RIGHT?
AND SO IT WAS PRETTY FREE
THAT WAY, OKAY, RIGHT?
PROBLEM IS THAT IN ORDER TO
MAKE THAT WORK OVER THE LONG
PERIOD, YOU'VE GOT TO TAKE
A PLAGUE-ON-ALL-YOUR-HOUSES
APPROACH, RIGHT?
ONCE YOU START ACTUALLY
ADVOCATING SOMETHING OR MOVING
IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN A
PLAGUE ON ALL YOUR HOUSES,
PEOPLE WILL NAIL YOU.
THEY'LL HAVE YOU PINNED
DOWN AND THERE'S NO POINT
IN THEM LISTENING
TO YOU ANYMORE.

Richard says OH, YOU'RE A LIBERAL.

John says THEY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE.
THEY'VE GOT YOU.
SO THAT'S WHERE THAT
CURMUDGEON THING PLAYED.
SO IT WILL NARROW YOU DOWN
AS FAST AS ANYTHING WILL.
EVENTUALLY, THE CURMUDGEON
ITSELF WILL PIN YOU DOWN.
OH, THAT'S JOHN,
THE CURMUDGEON.
IT IS NOT A PLAYABLE
SITUATION FOREVER, EITHER.

Richard says SO DID YOU FIND YOU KIND OF
REACHED AN END OF A ROAD
AND IT WAS TIME
TO GET OUT?

John says BY THE TIME THE CUTBACKS
KIND OF - AND I COULD SEE
THE END COMING, AND THEY
DIDN'T HAVE TO FIRE ME.
I DID 65 VIDEOS
ON 65 CONTRACTS.
ALL THEY HAD TO DO
WAS JUST NOT CALL.
STOP ANY TIME, RIGHT.
SO I MEAN, I FIGURED THAT
WHEN WE WERE GETTING TOWARD
THAT END, I COULD
SEE THAT ONE COMING.
AND I WAS TRYING TO DO
THINGS THAT WERE MORE -
THAT KIND OF OPENED
IT UP A BIT,
BUT THEN I WOULD PEOPLE
KIND OF SAYING, WELL,
NO, THAT'S NOT SATIRE.
YOU'RE HERE TO
BE THE SATIRIST.
AND I COULD SEE, OH, YEAH,
OKAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S OKAY.
Richard says NOW, THE SUCCESS
WITH BILLY BISHOP,
IT'S GOING TO BE ALL AROUND
THE COUNTRY THIS AGAIN.
HAS IT MADE YOU WANT
TO WRITE SOMETHING
NEW FOR THE THEATRE?

John says OH, YEAH, I'LL WRITE
SOMETHING NEW FOR THE THEATRE.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT
IT WILL BE, THOUGH.
NOT A CLUE.
I DON'T KNOW.

Richard says AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA
WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY YET.

John says NO, I'M WORKING ON
A NOVEL RIGHT NOW,
SO IT'S GOING TO
WAIT FOR A WHILE.

Richard says NOW, AGAIN, THE
NOVEL FORUM AND YOU
HAD A VERY SUCCESSFUL
FIRST NOVEL.
PEOPLE LIKED IT.

John says IN ITS WAY.
PEOPLE LIKED IT.

Richard says AND IT GRABBED
EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION.
YOU HAD KIND OF A
STAR-CROSSED SECOND NOVEL?

John says I DIDN'T LIKE IT.

Richard says DIDN'T LIKE IT MUCH.

John says IT DIDN'T WORK.

Richard says AND IT'S TAKEN YOU A WHILE
TO GO BACK TO THE NOVEL FORUM.

John says YEAH.
I HAD A MAJOR SIDETRACK
IN THE SCREENWRITING
FORUM, OKAY?
ERR, OFF.
I GOT ASKED TO
WRITE A SCREENPLAY
AND IT GOT
MADE, RIGHT.
THIS IS A WEIRD PATTERN I
FIND IS THAT AN EARLY
THING THAT I WRITE HAS
SURPRISING SUCCESS, RIGHT.
FOR SOME REASON THE FIRST
ARTICLE I EVER WROTE
FOR A MAGAZINE WON A
NATIONAL MAGAZINE AWARD.
I MEAN, NEVER
HAPPENED AGAIN.
I DON'T KNOW,
YOU KNOW?
THE FIRST MOVIE
I EVER WROTE,
KOOTENAY BROWN,
GOT MADE.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT
THE SUCCESSFUL
CANADIAN MOVIE IS.
IT'S MADE
ITS MONEY BACK,
DISTRIBUTED BY
REPUBLIC IN THE STATES,
SO I GUESS IT'S A
SUCCESSFUL CANADIAN MOVIE.
AND IT GOT MADE.
AND SO I GOT A LOT OF
OFFERS TO WRITE MOVIES
BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT
YOU WRITING THEM,
NOT BECAUSE YOU WRITE WELL,
BUT BECAUSE THEY GET MADE,
THAT'S THE
OBJECTIVE, YOU KNOW?
AND THE WHOLE STORY
STRUCTURE THING STARTED
TO REALLY INTEREST
ME A LOT, YOU KNOW,
PARTLY FROM WORKING ON THE
NOVEL DAZZLED AND PARTLY
JUST BECAUSE IT'S A DAMNED
INTERESTING - AS YOU KNOW,
IT'S A DAMNED
INTERESTING THING TO DO,
APART FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
YOU CAN'T WRITE YOUR WAY
OUT OF A STORY PROBLEM.
STORIES IS A STRUCTURE AND
IF YOU TRY AND WRITE YOUR
WAY OUT OF A STORY PROBLEM,
ALL YOU'LL END UP DOING
IS HIDING IT, YOU KNOW?
SO IT'S QUITE APART FROM
YOUR ABILITY TO WRITE,
YOUR ABILITY TO
TELL A DAMN STORY.
AND THAT'S WHAT I DID IN
A LOT OF THE MUSICALS
AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS
DOING IN THE NOVEL,
AND SUDDENLY THERE
WAS THIS FORUM.
BUT THEN YOU DEAL WITH THE
OTHER ASPECT OF THE MOVIE,
WHICH IS THE CLOSER
IT GETS TO BEING MADE,
THE FARTHER IT GETS FROM
WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE
AS A WRITER.

Richard says ON STAGE, IT STILL
CAN BE CLOSE TO YOU.

John says IT'S PLASTIC.
IT CAN BE CHANGED, YEAH,
RIGHT UP TO OPENING NIGHT
IT CAN BE CHANGED.
BUT I WAS HOOKED ON THE
STORY WHICH IS WHY
I WANT TO WRITE -
I LIKE GENRES.
I LIKE THRILLERS.
AND I'VE NEVER HAD A
CHANCE TO KIND OF WORK
IN THAT GENRE AND I WANT
TO DO IT, YOU KNOW?

Richard says JOHN, I WISH YOU THE BEST
OF LUCK WITH THE BOOK.
I WANT YOU ON
STAGE AGAIN.
WE WANT TO SEE YOU THERE
AND THE BEST OF LUCK
WITH THE NATIONAL
SHOW, BILLY BISHOP.

John says I'M DONE!
OH, FANTASTIC!

Richard says YOU CAN DO WHATEVER
YOU WANT NOW.

John says THAT WAS FUN.
IT WENT BY,
THAT'S GOOD.

Richard says GO THOU AND DO
LIKEWISE.

John says THANKS, RICHARD.

Richard says THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

John says GREAT TO SEE YOU.

Richard says FOR DIALOGUE, I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOODBYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Dialogue.”

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1998, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: John Gray