Transcript: Denny Doherty | Nov 15, 1998

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue.”

The title of the episode pops up against an image of Richard Ouzounian and a guest sitting at a restaurant table: “Denny Doherty. Singer.”

Then, Richard appears facing the screen. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a black suit, blue shirt, and striped blue tie.

He says WELCOME TO
DIALOGUE.
I'M RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
YOU'RE ABOUT TO MEET A
MAN WHO'S BEEN PART OF
MY CULTURAL CONSCIOUSNESS
FOR WELL OVER 30 YEARS NOW.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER
HE'S BEEN PHOTOGRAPHED
SITTING IN A BATHTUB
OR BEING THE PRESENCE
BEHIND THEODORE TUGBOAT,
I'VE BEEN ACQUAINTED
WITH HIM FOR
QUITE A WHILE.
THIS
DIALOGUE
IS
WITH DENNY DOHERTY.

Denny is in his fifties, with very short gray hair and a trimmed beard. He’s wearing a gray suit and a mandarin-collared burgundy shirt.

Richard continues YOU DIDN'T HAVE EXACTLY
HAVE LIKE A STORYBOOK
CHILDHOOD IN HALIFAX.

Denny says OH, NO, I GREW UP
IN THE NORTH END, BOY.

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says FROM WORKING CLASS
PEOPLE, YEAH,
BUT EVERYBODY SANG.
I WAS THE LAST ONE BORN
SO I WAS THE SMALLEST
AND DIDN'T GET
INVOLVED IN IT,
BUT I REMEMBER MY SISTERS
AND MY BROTHER SINGING
JUST DOING THE DISHES.
EVERYBODY WAS SINGING
IN THE KITCHEN.

Richard says RIGHT.

A caption appears on screen. It reads “Denny Doherty. Singer.”

Denny says EVERYTHING TOOK
PLACE IN THE KITCHEN.
EVERYTHING TOOK
PLACE IN THE KITCHEN.
YOU ATE IN THE KITCHEN.
YOU DID YOUR HOMEWORK
IN THE KITCHEN.
YOU SANG AND DANCED AND DID
THE DISHES IN THE KITCHEN.
THE FRONT ROOM
WAS FOR GUESTS.

Richard says FOR GUESTS.

Denny says YOU NEVER WENT
IN THERE.
IT WAS ALL HAPPENING
IN THE KITCHEN,
AND AROUND THE FIRE, AROUND
THE STOVE, AROUND THE HEAT.
CELTIC LEGEND HAS
IT THAT EVERY YEAR
YOU PUT THE FIRE OUT.
THAT THE ELDER OF THE CLAN
WOULD PUT THE FIRE OUT
AND ALL THE OTHER FIRES
WOULD BE DAMPED AND PUT OUT.
AND THEN THE ELDER WOULD
BUILD A FIRE AND ALL THE OTHER
HEARTHS WOULD COME AND
GET THE COALS AND TAKE
THEM BACK TO THEIR HEARTHS
AND START THE FIRE.
IT WAS REBIRTH, RENEWAL,
HERE WE GO AGAIN
FOR ANOTHER YEAR, BUT
LET'S GET TOGETHER
AND START THE FIRE AND
GO OUT FROM THERE.
AND YOU GET TOGETHER,
WHAT DID YOU DO?
[humming fiddle music]
BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, THE
WHOLE PLACE IS GOING.

Richard says AND THERE YOU GO,
THERE'S 90 OF THEM
ON STAGE WITH YOU.
BUT NO MICHAEL
FLATLEY THERE.

Denny says WELL, HE'S FROM
CLEVELAND.

[laughing]

Denny says HOME OF ROCK AND ROLL.

Richard says WE'VE GOT YOU AS A KID
IN HALIFAX AND YOU'RE
SINGING AND DANCING
IN THE KITCHEN.
HOW EARLY DID
YOU GET OUT?

Denny says WELL, NOW, LET'S SEE, I
WAS RAISED IN THE NORTH END
OF HALIFAX, A PLACE
CALLED WELLINGTON COURT.

Richard says AND IT SOUNDS GRAND.

Denny says BUT IT WASN'T.
IT WAS AN ARMY BARRACKS
THAT THEY CONVERTED
TO MUNICIPAL HOUSING.
[laughing]
350 FAMILIES ALL -
TALK ABOUT A STUDY IN
HUMAN BEHAVIOUR I LEARNED.
BUT ABOVE
WELLINGTON COURT
WAS THE HALIFAX FORUM,
AND THERE WERE DANCES
HELD IN THE SUMMER.
THEY PUT WOOD OVER THE ICE
AND THEY HAD DANCES
AND 6- TO 700 PEOPLE
COULD DANCE.
SO I'M OUT WITH MY
BUDDIES IN THE CAR,
AND MY MOTHER WOULD MAKE ME
SING AT THE DROP OF A HAT,
THE INSURANCE MAN, OH,
SING A SONG FOR HIM.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says OH, MY BONES DENOUNCE THE
BUCKBOARD BOUNCE
AND THEY RENT
THIS IN MY CAR -
THAT'S VERY NICE.
SO I'M OUT IN THE
CAR WITH THE GUYS
AFTER I'M 16 YEARS
OLD, DRIVING AROUND,
SINGING WITH THE RADIO
AND THEY'RE SAYING,
WILL YOU SHUT UP SO
WE COULD HEAR THE RADIO.
I WENT, OH.
IF YOU WANT TO SING,
WHY DON'T YOU GET UP
AND SING WITH THE BAND
UP AT THE FORUM?
A LITTLE BOTTLE OF WINE
GOING AROUND, WELL, I WILL.
YOU WILL, WILL YA.
I WILL AND I WENT UP AND I
KNEW THE GUY, PETE POWERS,
WHO HAD THE BIG BAND AT
THE FORUM, THE DANCE BAND,
BECAUSE HE WAS IN MARSHALL
BANDS WITH MY FATHER.
MY FATHER PLAYED TUBA IN A
LOT OF RESERVE ARMY BANDS.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says AND HE KNEW ME.
OH, YOUR DEN'S BOY.
I SAID, YEAH.
I WENT, CAN I SING
A SONG WITH YOU?
YOU CAN SING?
I SAID, OH, WELL, AH -
WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
PAT BOONE HAD LOVE “LETTERS
IN THE SAND” OUT AT THE TIME.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says I KNEW THE SONG SO I SANG
THE SONG AND 600 PEOPLE
STOPPED DANCING AND TURNED
AROUND AND LOOKED AT ME.
I WENT, OH, MY GOD,
THEY'RE GOING TO
RUSH THE STAGE
AND KILL ME.
THEY LIKED - AH,
THEY LIKED ME.

Richard says THEY LIKED YOU, THEY
REALLY LIKED YOU.

Denny says SO FROM THEN ON IT
WAS, OH, COME ON, DEN,
GET UP AND
SING A SONG.
THAT WAS WHEN I WAS
ABOUT 16 YEARS OLD.

Richard says BUT YOU CAN'T GET
THAT FAR IN HALIFAX.

Denny says NO.
WELL, THAT WAS JUST A
BIG BAND DANCE BAND,
AND I WAS WORKING IN
A NAVAL HOCK SHOP
AND NAVAL OUTFITTERS AT THE
TIME CALLED THE BARRINGTON
EXCHANGE, 20,000 SAILORS
COMING AND GOING FROM
EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD
COMING TO HALIFAX.
DRUNKEN SAILORS
BUYING THINGS?
AMAZING STUFF.
ANOTHER STORY ALTOGETHER;
BUT WHILE I'M TAKING
INSTRUMENTS IN ON
HOCK FROM MUSICIANS,
THIS GUY FROM SPRYFIELD COMES
IN TO HOCK HIS DRUM KIT
AND SAID, DID I SEE
YOU UP AT THE FORUM
A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AGO SINGING?
LIKE, I'M IN A BAND.
WE'RE DOING A WEDDING
OUT IN INDIAN HARBOUR,
DO YOU WANT TO COME
OUT AND - AND I SANG WITH
THIS ROCK AND ROLL
BAND CALL THE HEPSTERS,
NOT THE HIPSTERS,
THE HEPSTERS.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says AND FROM SINGING IN
THIS ROCK AND ROLL BAND,
HIGH SCHOOL
DANCES, WEDDINGS,
THE KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS HALL
ON CORNWALLIS STREET
AND PLACES LIKE THAT.
FOLK MUSIC CAME ALONG.
PAT LACROIX, WHO WAS A
PHOTOGRAPHER HERE IN TORONTO
NOW, DOING VERY WELL,
OWNS MOST OF DOWNTOWN,
AND HE'D JUST GOTTEN BACK
FROM BUMMING AROUND EUROPE.
HE WAS IN TOWN,
IN HALIFAX.
I WAS THERE.
A FELLOW NAMED DICK BURN AND
WE ALL USED TO HANG OUT
AT THE JAZZ CLUB AND
FOLK MUSIC CAME IN.
PETE SEEGER, THE WEAVERS,
THE KINGSTON TRIO,
BROTHERS FOUR.
WE GOT UP AND STARTED
SINGING FOLK MUSIC,
AND THAT WAS A VEHICLE
TO GET OUT OF TOWN.
HE HAD A 15 MINUTE CBC
SHOW, WHICH WE DID THAT,
AND THERE WAS
NOTHING ELSE TO DO.
WE PLAYED THE
FRATERNITY HOUSE.
WE DID THE TV SHOW AND
THERE WAS ONE CLUB,
WE PLAYED THAT.
LEAVE.
BUT ONE OF THE GUYS
IN THE BAND, BERN,
HAD HAD A NIGHTCLUB
ACT IN MONTREAL.
HE SAID, MONTREAL'S
THE PLACE - MONTREAL?
HE SAID THERE'S 300
CLUBS, NIGHTCLUBS
OPEN 'TIL 4:00
IN THE MORNING.
LET'S GO.
SO WE PILED IN HIS MG,
MYSELF AND TWO OTHER GUYS
AND HIM AND TOOK
OFF FOR MONTREAL,
AND THAT'S BY WAY GETTING
OUT OF HALIFAX WAS,
LET'S GO TO MONTREAL
AND SING FOLK MUSIC
AND MAKE A LIVING.

Richard says SO, YOU WERE PLUGGED INTO
THAT WHOLE FOLK MUSIC SET
AT THAT POINT.
FROM MONTREAL,
I GUESS, WHAT,
WAS THE NEXT THING?

Denny says TORONTO.

Richard says YOU DID TORONTO AND THEN?

Denny says WINNIPEG.

Richard says NO, NO, BUT HOW ABOUT SOUTH.

Denny says YEAH.

Richard says NEW YORK.

Denny says YEAH, JUST GOING OVER TO
BUFFALO, SIR, FOR A BEER.
SEE THE BARS CLOSED
AND THEN TORONTO.
WE'RE JUST GOING
OVER FOR A BEER.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says AND WE JUST, PFFFT, GO TO NEW YORK.

Richard says HAVING THE BEER DOWN
IN GREENWICH VILLAGE.

Denny says GREENWICH VILLAGE.
[laughing]

Richard says I MEAN, DID YOU GO RIGHT
IN AND HIT PLACES
LIKE THE BITTER END
AND STUFF LIKE THAT?

Denny says WELL, NO, YOU COULDN'T
GET IN THE BITTER END.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says NO, THEY PAID AND
THEY PAID ACTS
TO COME INTO
THE BITTER END.
CASS, AS A
MATTER OF FACT,
THAT'S THE FIRST
PLACE I MET CASS.
I HEARD HER BEFORE I MET
HER COMING OUT THROUGH
THE BRICK WALLS OF
THE BITTER END.
SHE WAS IN A GROUP
CALLED THE BIG 3.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says AND AT THE TIME THERE
WERE A LOT OF CLUBS
IN THE VILLAGE THAT WORKED,
BUT YOU HAD TO PASS THE -
HOW DID THE SPIEL GO?
THE GUY WOULD GO, DUE TO THE
CABARET LAWS OF THE STATE
OF NEW YORK, THE MANAGEMENT
OF THIS ESTABLISHMENT
IS UNABLE TO PAY US
FOR OUR PERFORMANCES,
BUT AFTER WE PERFORM, IF WE
PASS AMONG YOU WITH A BASKET
INTO WHICH WE HOPE YOU WILL
PASS - YOU WILL PUT MONEY
FOR LUXURIES LIKE FOOD,
CLOTHING, AND SHELTER.
AND WE'D DO A SET
AND PASS THE HAT.
YOU CAN MAKE 50 BUCKS,
YOU KNOW, A ROUND.
YOU DID ALL RIGHT.

Richard says WHO ELSE WAS KIND OF
IN THE SAME POSITION
YOU WERE AT THAT POINT,
YOU KNOW, STARTING OUT?

Denny says OH, MAN.

Richard says WE'RE TALKING EARLY '60s?

Denny says YEAH, '61, '62, AND '63.
YOU COULD WALK IN A CLUB
AND THERE'D BE BILL COSBY
SITTING WITH A CHAIR
UP ON A TABLE.
THERE WAS NO STAGE
IN THE CLUB.
THERE'D BE A CHAIR ON A
TABLE AND HIM SITTING UP
THERE DOING NOAH, AND ALL
OF HIS OTHER ROUTINES.
BILL COSBY.

Richard says RIGHT, RIGHT.

Denny says WOODY ALLEN WOULD BE DOING STAND-UP.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says DICK CAVETT DOING STAND -
JOAN RIVERS WAS IN A GROUP
CALLED JIM, JAKE,
AND JOAN.
[laughing]
FOLK SONGS, WITTY
SAYINGS, AND SKETCHES.

Richard says WHAT DID YOU DO
TO THE OTHER TWO?
I KILLED THEM.

Denny says SHE ALMOST MARRIED
ONE OF THEM, I THINK.

Richard says WHAT ABOUT MUSICALLY?
WAS DYLAN AROUND THEN?

Denny says WE'RE SITTING IN A
PLACE CALLED THE DUGOUT,
WHICH WAS NEXT TO THE BITTER
END, AND THIS IS '61,
EARLY '61, AND THIS GUY
IN A LONG ARMY GREATCOAT
WITH A PEAK - WATCH CAP AND
BIG SCARF AROUND HIS NECK
AND THOSE GLOVES WITH
NO FINGERS IN THEM,
AND A BIG BAG UNDER
HIS ARM FULL OF PAPER.
HE'D COME BY TO THE
TABLES AND HE WOULDN'T -
[muttering]
PASSING OUT
SHEETS OF PAPER.
OH, “THERE WAS A
MAN WALKED DOWN -
THE ANSWER, MY FRIEND, IS
BLOWING IN THE WIND.”
WILL YOU BLOW IT
OUT YOUR ASS.
GET AWAY FROM ME,
YOU'RE CREEPY.

Richard says YOU'RE KIDDING.
HE WAS REALLY LIKE -

Denny says YEAH.
HE WAS HANDING
OUT SHEETS -

Richard says PLAY MY SONGS, PLEASE.

Denny says YEAH.
AND CASS WOULD GO,
OH, THIS IS GREAT,
AND THEN THREE MONTHS
LATER, PETER, PAUL,
AND MARY HAD THE
BIGGEST FOLK ALBUM EVER.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says AND THEN I GO TO WARNER
BROTHERS ONE AFTERNOON
TO SEE A GUY NAMED ARTIE
MOGULL ABOUT A RECORD DEAL
OR SOMETHING
WITH THE GUYS.
AND I HEAR THIS -
[imitating guitar]
A MOUTH HARP GOING,
HARMONICA-
[imitating guitar]
AND I WALK BY
THIS LITTLE ROOM,
THERE'S DYLAN SITTING IN
THERE WITH THE HARP RACK ON.
SOMEBODY HAD JUST PUSHED THE
PLAY BUTTON ON THE MACHINE
AND HE'S SITTING IN THERE
PLAYING EVERYTHING HE KNOWS,
PUBLISHING MONEY.
ALBERT GROSSMAN SAYS, GET IN
THERE AND RECORD EVERYTHING
YOU KNOW AND WE'LL
GET YOU AN ADVANCE
AND GET YOU SOME MONEY.
THAT WAS '62.

Richard says '62.
ORIGINALLY WHEN I
KNEW I WAS GOING TO
SIT DOWN AND TALK TO
YOU, I SAID, NOW,
I DON'T WANT TO SPEND MOST
OF THE TIME CHATTING ABOUT
THE MAMAS and THE PAPAS, BUT
TO HAVE DENNY DOHERTY ON
AND NOT TALK ABOUT THAT,
IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW,
HAVING JAMES CAMERON
ON AND SAYING,
WE'LL FORGET
ABOUT
TITANIC.
WE WON'T DEAL WITH
THAT RIGHT NOW.

Denny says WHAT ARE YOU
DOING NOW?

Richard says BUT YOU MENTIONED
CASS AND SO OBVIOUSLY
YOU GOT HOOKED UP
AND SAW HER FIRST.

Denny says WELL, I WAS IN THE
HALIFAX THREE.
WELL, WE WERE CALLED
THE COLONIALS,
THEN OUR AGENT SAID, NO.
WHERE ARE YOU FROM?
HALIFAX - HALIFAX III.
CASS WAS WITH
THE BIG 3.
JOHN PHILLIPS WAS
WITH THE JOURNEYMEN
WHO INCLUDED
SCOTT MCKENZIE.
MICHELLE, HIS WIFE, WAS
WITH HIM AT THE TIME.
THE JOURNEYMEN WERE
STILL TOGETHER.
ZAL YANOVSKY, WHO WENT ON TO
BE WITH JOHN SEBASTIAN
AND THE SPOONFUL, WAS OUR
GUITAR PLAYER FROM TORONTO
WHEN WE WENT DOWN.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says SO WE WERE ALL IN NEW YORK,
ALL LIVING IN THE VILLAGE.
THEY LIVED AT
THE EARLE HOTEL,
WE LIVED AT THE
ALBERT HOTEL,
AND YOU WORKED FOR BASKETS,
OR YOU WENT OUT ON THE ROAD,
DID CLUB DATES.
THERE WAS A CIRCUIT.
THERE WAS MINNEAPOLIS
AND THERE WAS CLEVELAND.
FARRAGER'S IN CLEVELAND AND THE
PADDED CELL IN MINNEAPOLIS.
AND YOU COULD GO OUT AND
YOU COULD MAKE A LIVING,
AND EVERYBODY WAS IN NEW
YORK AT THE SAME TIME
TRYING TO DO THAT.
AND THEN THE
BEATLES LANDED.
BUT BEFORE THE BEATLES
LANDED - WELL, ACTUALLY
IT WAS CASS WHO
TOOK ME TO SEE -
I'M JUMPING AHEAD
OF MYSELF.
THE HALIFAX III
BROKE UP.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says BIG 3 BROKE UP.
THE JOURNEYMEN
BROKE UP.
FOLK MUSIC ENDED
BECAUSE ROCK AND ROLL
WAS COMING BACK IN.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says IT WAS SATURATED.
THE MARKET WAS SATURATED
WITH FOLK MUSIC AND THERE WAS
NO MARKET FOR THE AMOUNT OF
PEOPLE THAT WERE OUT DOING IT.
IT COULDN'T
SUPPORT ITSELF.
BUT CASS HAD ALWAYS SOUGHT...
SHE WAS INTO ROCK AND ROLL.
SHE LIKED ROCK AND ROLL.
FOLK MUSIC WAS A WAY
TO MAKE A LIVING.
IT'S THAT EASY,
IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
SO WHEN THE BEATLES
ARRIVED, SHE TAKES ME -
WE'RE IN WASHINGTON.
NOW, WE HAD GONE
ELECTRIC IN 1964.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says A YEAR BEFORE DYLAN
PLUGGED IN UP AT NEWPORT.

Richard says WOW, OKAY.

Denny says AND WE CALLED
OURSELVES THE MUGWUMPS.
WELL, FIRST WE WERE CASS
ELLIOT AND THE BIG 3,
MYSELF, AND ZAL AND JIMMY
HENDRICKS - NOT JIM HENDRIX
THE GUITAR PLAYER, ANOTHER
GUY FROM NEBRASKA,
WHO HAD BEEN IN
THE BIG 3 WITH HER.
SO WE FORMED A GROUP CALLED
CASS ELLIOT AND THE BIG 3,
BUT IT WASN'T TIME
FOR CASS TO BE OUT
IN FRONT OF ANYTHING.
SHE JUST WANTED TO SURROUND
HERSELF AND BE PART OF
A GROUP, SO WE CHANGED OUR
NAME TO THE MUGWUMPS,
GOT INTO ROCK AND ROLL,
AND THE MANAGEMENT
THAT WE HAD OWNED A
NIGHTCLUB IN WASHINGTON, D.C.,
WHERE I FOUND OUT -
SOMEBODY TOLD ME THAT BILL
CLINTON USED TO COME DOWN
AND HANG OUT AT THE SHADOWS
AND WATCH THE MUGWUMPS.
HE LIKED THE BAND A LOT.

Richard says HA!
WHO KNEW?

Denny says HE NEVER SAT IN ON SAX, THOUGH, THEN, NO.

Richard says SAT IN ON WHAT?

Denny says ON SAX.

Richard says OH, SAX.

[laughing]

Denny says HE SAT IN ON -
NEVER MIND.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says OKAY, AND THE CLUB
SUPPORTED US FOR A WHILE
AND WE LIVED IN ARLINGTON,
VIRGINIA, ACROSS THE RIVER,
AND THEN THE MUGWUMPS...
WELL, CASS, WHILE WE WERE
AT THE MUGWUMPS, SHE SAID,
YOU GOT TO SEE THIS.
COME ON.
AND WE WENT TO THE MOVIES
AND SHE TOOK ME TO SEE
HARD DAY'S NIGHT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says WE WATCHED
HARD DAY'S NIGHT
UNTIL THEY CAME AND SAID,
THAT'S IT.
THERE'S NO MORE
SHOWINGS TODAY.
AND WE GOT OUT OF
THE THEATRE.
SHE GOT IN A CAB AND WE
DROVE TO THE AIRPORT,
GOT IN A PLANE, AND WE FLEW
BACK TO NEW YORK TO SEE
OUR MANAGEMENT AND SAID, WE'VE
GOT TO DO THIS KIND OF STUFF.
WE'VE GOT TO
GO THIS WAY.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says AND THEY'RE GOING, WHAT
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
THEY HAD NO IDEA WHERE
WE WERE COMING FROM.
NEEDLESS TO SAY, THE
MUGWUMPS WERE BEFORE
THEIR TIME AND THAT
FOLDED UP.
AND ZAL AND I STARTED A DUO
PLAYING SURF BAND MUSIC.
CASS STARTED
SINGING JAZZ.
JOHN AND THE JOURNEYMEN
HAD BROKEN UP,
SO HE'S GOT THE
NEW JOURNEYMEN.
SCOTT MCKENZIE AND
THAT GROUP LEFT.
I REPLACED SCOTT IN THE
JOURNEYMEN TO PAY THE BILLS
FOR THE MUGWUMPS HAD
BUILT UP AT THE HOTEL.

Richard says I SEE HOW IT'S COMING, OKAY.

Denny says AND IT ALL
CAME TOGETHER.
I HAD MET JOHN ON THE ROAD
THE YEAR BEFORE THAT,
SO NOW I'M WITH
THE NEW JOURNEYMEN.
CASS IS LIKE
FOLLOWING ME AROUND.
CASS LIKED ME A LOT.
I LIKED HER, TOO.
WE LOVED EACH OTHER BUT
IT WAS ANOTHER STORY.
DO YOU WANT TO
GET INTO THAT?

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says YEAH?

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says WELL, I -
I WAS VAIN, AND I WAS
FICKLE, AND I WAS STUPID,
AND SHE WEIGHED 300 POUNDS,
AND I NEVER GOT PAST THAT.
I COULDN'T GET
OVER THAT.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says YOU KNOW, IT WAS -
[sighs heavily]
GIVEN MORE TIME, GOD KNOWS
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED,
BUT WE'RE ONLY
ALLOTTED SO MUCH.
SHE USED HERS UP IN...
WHERE ARE YOU?
AND JOHN AND MICHELLE
AND MARSHAL BRICKMAN.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW
MARSHAL BRICKMAN'S A WRITER.

Richard says WORKED WITH WOODY
ALLEN FOR A WHILE.

Denny says YEAH.

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says AND HE'S A GREAT
BANJO PLAYER.
INCREDIBLE FIVE STRING
BANJO PLAYER, REALLY GOOD,
LIKE EARL SCRUGGS
TYPE, AND COULD SING,
SO THAT WAS THE
NEW JOURNEYMEN,
BUT MARSHAL'S
GOING, I DON'T KNOW.
SO JOHN CALLED ME
TO REPLACE MARSHAL.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says AND I WENT ON THE ROAD
BECAUSE I COULD MAKE
ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY
EVERYBODY'S HOTEL BILL
BACK AT THE ALBERT TO GET
THEM OUT OF THE HOLE.

Richard says OKAY.

Denny says SO CASS GETS A GIG
SINGING JAZZ.
ZAL AND I, AFTER THE
JOURNEYMEN BREAK UP,
AFTER THE MUGWUMPS BREAK
UP, WE'RE DOING A DUO,
SO I GO OFF.
EVERYBODY'S STRANDED
AT THE ALBERT HOTEL.
I GET A JOB WITH JOHN
AND MICHELLE AS THE
NEW JOURNEYMEN AND OFF
WE GO TO THE ISLANDS.
BECAUSE FOLK MUSIC IS GONE
BUT JOHN WON'T LET GO OF IT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says IT'S LIKE, WE CAN
MAKE A LIVING AT THIS.
NO, WE CAN'T.
IT'S OVER.

Richard says NO, NO.

Denny says JACK LACKLUSTER JUST -
LINKLETTER JUST DROVE IT
INTO THE GROUND.
SO, WHAT TO DO,
WHAT TO DO?
LET'S RUN AWAY.
WE HAD ABOUT 10 GRAND ON
AMERICAN EXPRESS CARDS,
SO JOHN AND MICHELLE AND I,
AND MICHELLE'S SISTER AND
HER BOYFRIEND, 10 OF US, AND
JOHN'S DAUGHTER MACKENZIE
AND A DOG AND MOTORCYCLES
AND TENTS AND INSTRUMENTS
ALL TOOK OFF TO
THE VIRGIN ISLANDS.
AND CASS FOLLOWED
US DOWN THERE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says BY THE TIME SHE ARRIVED, WE
HAD WORN OUT OUR WELCOME.
WE WERE THROWN
OFF THE ISLAND,
AND SHE HAD A
ROUND-TRIP TICKET.
WE DID NOT HAVE
ROUND-TRIP TICKETS.
WE WERE STUCK.
YOU DON'T WANT TO GO INTO
TOO MUCH DETAIL BECAUSE
IT WILL TAKE AN HOUR AND
A HALF TO EXPLAIN IT.

Richard says AND IT WAS THE '60s.

Denny says SUFFICE IT TO SAY, WE
WOUND UP BACK IN NEW YORK,
BUT CASS WOUND UP BACK
IN NEW YORK FIRST
AND SHE KEPT
GOING TO L.A.
SO SHE WAS ALREADY IN LOS
ANGELES WHEN JOHN AND MICHELLE
AND I GOT BACK TO NEW YORK
WITH ALL THE OTHER
REMNANTS OF THE
DISPLACED PEOPLE.
AND WE TOOK MICHELLE'S
HOMETOWN IS L.A.,
SHE WANTED TO GO HOME.
IT WAS OVER WITH
FOLK MUSIC.
THE EAST COAST
HAD FINISHED.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says SO OFF WE GO TO L.A.

Richard says So here...

Denny interrupts and says
I DON'T MEAN TO
INTERRUPT YOU
BUT IN THE PLAY I TRY
TO BRING OUT HOW
IMPORTANT CASS
WAS TO EVERYTHING.
JOHN WROTE A BOOK,
MICHELLE WROTE A BOOK.
THERE'S BEEN
INTERVIEWS HERE.
WE'RE DOING INTERVIEWS.
I, ME, MY, WHAT
AM I DOING?

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says BUT NO ONE KNOWS HOW
REALLY IMPORTANT SHE WAS.
I MEAN, SHE WAS
ALREADY IN LOS ANGELES.
SHE HAD AN APARTMENT
IN LOS ANGELES.
WELL, SHE WAS LIVING
IN A CRASH PAD,
AND THROUGH BARRY MCGUIRE
FOUND OUT WHERE SHE WAS.
SHE PUT US UP, JOHN
AND MICHELLE AND I.
WE'RE SLEEPING
ON HER FLOOR.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says WHEN SHE CALLS
MCGUIRE TO SAY,
WHY DON'T YOU COME
OVER AND LISTEN TO US.

Richard says HE SAID, LISTEN TO WHO?

Denny says THE FOUR OF US, 'CAUSE ONE
DAY WE'RE GOING OVER
AN ARRANGEMENT AND SHE JUST
STARTED TO SING WITH US,
AND UP TO THAT POINT,
JOHN DIDN'T WANT
ANYTHING TO DO
WITH CASS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says JUST BECAUSE SHE
DOESN'T - NO, NO,
HER EYES ARE TOO
CLOSE TOGETHER.

Richard says SHE'S BIG; MICHELLE'S
SKINNY AND IT DOESN'T WORK.

Denny says IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.
OKAY, THAT'S NOT
GOING TO WORK.
SHE STARTS SINGING ALONG ONE
DAY WHEN WE WERE REHEARSING
A SONG AND HE COULDN'T
DENY HIS EARS.
HE HEARD, OH, OH, OH.
OKAY, YOU SING THAT, CASS,
THEN - THEN, DENNY,
YOU CAN SING THIS.
MICHELLE, CAN
YOU SING THIS?
AND BANG, WE GOT
A FOURSOME GOING.

Richard says NOW, THE MOMENT I
WANTED TO ASK YOU...

Denny says I REMEMBER THE
AFTERNOON IT HAPPENED.

Richard says I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THIS
BECAUSE THE SOUND OF
THE MAMAS and PAPAS, THE BLEND
WAS ONE OF THE THINGS
WE ALL WALK AWAY WITH AND HOLD
IN OUR HEAD 30 YEARS LATER.
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU
WERE FOOLING AROUND WITH,
WHAT SONG IT WAS?

Denny says WELL, SEE, I HAD WORKED
WITH CASS BEFORE.
SHE AND I AND THE MUGWUMPS
HAD WORKED REALLY HARD
ON A LOT OF SONGS.
THE SONG WE WERE WORKING ON
WAS “CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'.”

Richard says IT WAS?

Denny says YEAH.
BUT WE USED TO DO IT -

He sings
ALL THE LEAVES ARE BROWN

He says
AND JOHN'S PLAYING,
TOOT TOOT TOOTLE -
FOLKIE, YEAH.
THE LOREENA
MCKENNITT VERSION.

He sings another version
ALL THE
LEAVES ARE BROWN

He says
THEN CASS IS GOING THIS
WAY, THIS IS THE WAY.
AND IT WORKED, AND SHE
CALLED HER FRIEND
BARRY MCGUIRE, WHO'S
RECORDING FOR DUNHILL,
GOT EVE OF
DESTRUCTION OUT.
SHE CALLS HIM AND SAYS,
COME OVER, HEAR US,
SEE WHAT YOU THINK.
HE COMES OVER AND GOES,
THAT SOUNDS REALLY GREAT.
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS COME
DOWN TO THE STUDIO TONIGHT,
I'M DOING A SESSION.
SING FOR MY
PRODUCER, LOU ADLER.
WE WENT DOWN AND SANG
“CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'.”
FOR LOU ADLER WHO SAID, OH,
THAT'S MCGUIRE'S NEXT SINGLE.
SO, WE DID ALL
THE BACKGROUNDS.
WE DID ALL THE INSTRUMENTAL
TRACKS AND MCGUIRE
CAME IN TO PUT
THE LEAD ON.

He sings with a croaking voice
ALL THE LEAVES
ARE BROWN!

He says
AND LOU SAID, NNNN,
I DON'T THINK.
DENNY, WHY DON'T
YOU PUT THE LEAD ON.
SO, EVERYTHING WAS DONE
WITH EYES TO PUT MCGUIRE'S
NEXT SINGLE OUT AS
“CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'.”
BUT THEY DIDN'T
WANT TO DO THAT,
SO I JUST PUT A LEAD ON
EVERYTHING THAT WAS DONE
AND THAT WAS OUR
FIRST SINGLE.

Richard says AND THAT WAS IT.

Denny says BUT WE WOULD NOT HAVE
GOT INTO THE STUDIO
IF CASS HAD NOT
CALLED MCGUIRE.
THE PHONE WORKED
IN THE APARTMENT.
THERE WAS AN EVICTION
NOTICE ON THE DOOR,
BUT THE PHONE WORKED AND
SHE'S CALLS AND SAID,
COME ON OVER.

Richard says SO SHE REALLY WAS
IN A WAY THE PERSON,
AS YOU'RE TELLING
THESE STORIES,
WHO MOVED AROUND AND PUT
ALL THE PIECES TOGETHER.

Denny says IF SHE HADN'T BEEN CHASING
MY ASS AROUND THE WORLD,
IT NEVER WOULD
HAVE HAPPENED.
AND IF SHE HAD NOT HAD A
PLACE FOR US TO LIE DOWN
AND CRASH, IT WOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.
IF SHE HAD NOT
CALLED MCGUIRE,
IT WOULD NOT HAVE
HAPPENED.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says SO, YES, SHE WAS
VERY IMPORTANT.

Richard says WHEN YOU THINK BACK,
THE OTHER TALISMAN
WE ALL CLING TO IS THAT
COVER OF THE FIRST ALBUM.
ALL RIGHT, WHERE
DID THAT COME FROM?
WHO SAID, LET'S ALL
GO IN THE BATHTUB?

Denny says FUNNY YOU SHOULD MENTION,
AND I MENTIONED
THE BRONFMANS EARLIER.
I WAS SUPPORTING THEM QUITE
STEADILY THROUGH THE '60s.
MCA, WHO BOUGHT ALL OF OUR
MASTER TAPES AND EVERYTHING,
10, 15 YEARS AGO, SENT ME A
PICTURE FROM OUR FIRST ALBUM
COVER YESTERDAY TO SIGN
BECAUSE THEY'RE PUTTING
A NEW LOBBY IN THEIR
BUILDING IN L.A. AND THEY
WANT TO PUT THIS
IN A GLASS CASE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says SIGN THIS PICTURE,
AND IT'S THE PICTURE
FROM THE BACK OF
OUR FIRST ALBUM.
NOW, THE FRONT COVER
WAS US IN THE BATHTUB.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says WELL, GUY WEBSTER
WAS THE PHOTOGRAPHER.
HE'S GOT US OUT IN THE
BACKYARD ON A THING,
WE'RE TAKING PICTURES
OUTDOORS AND WE'RE GOING,
LET'S SCREW
WITH THIS GUY.
LET'S RUN AWAY
AND HIDE.
SO WE GO UP AND WE HIDE IN
THE BATHTUB IN THE BATHROOM.
HE'S OUTSIDE GOING,
YOU GUYS, COME ON.
I GOT A DEADLINE,
YOU GUYS.
LET'S GO.
HUSH, DON'T
SAY NOTHING.
WE CAN HEAR HIM
OPENING DOORS.
COME ON, YOU GUYS, AND HE
COME UP AND HE OPENED
THE BATHROOM DOOR AND
GOES, DON'T MOVE.
[sound of snapping pictures]
THAT WAS THE COVER.

Richard says AND THAT WAS IT.
YOU KNOW, YOU CAME
FROM OUT OF NOWHERE.
I MEAN, NOT OUT
OF NOWHERE.
YOU'D BEEN
SINGING FOR YEARS.
MY OTHER PERSONAL
SNAPSHOT MOMENT,
YOU GUYS CAME AND SANG,
IT WAS MY FIRST YEAR
AT UNIVERSITY,
FALL OF '66.
WE HAD OUR HOMECOMING DANCE
AT FORDHAM UNIVERSITY
IN NEW YORK, AND IT WAS THE
MAMAS and PAPAS WERE SINGING
FOR THE BIG
HOMECOMING CONCERT.
I MEAN, I'M A KID.
I'M THERE AT
COLLEGE.
I THINK, THIS IS GREAT, AND
AT ONE POINT WE THOUGHT,
HOW MANY COLLEGES ARE THEY
SINGING AT THIS FALL?
LIKE, WERE ON A NETWORK
AND THEY JUST KEPT -

Denny says WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
WE PERFORMED AT
FORDHAM?

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says REALLY?

Richard says CALL THE BRONFMANS.
CHECK OUT THAT NIGHT.
[laughing]

Denny says I DON'T RECALL.

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says WE DIDN'T DO THAT MANY
PERSONAL PERFORMANCES.

Richard says YEAH, IT WAS
THE FALL OF '66.
THERE YOU WERE, ALL OF
YOU, LARGER THAN LIFE.

Denny says THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN - YEAH,
WE DID FOREST HILL'S, TOO.

Richard says PROBABLY AROUND
THEN, TOO.

Denny says YEAH.
YOU WERE THERE?

Richard says YES.

Denny says DANG, MAN, LOOK AT THAT,
AND NOW WE'RE HERE.

Richard says ONLY THREE
DECADES LATER.

They both chuckle.

Denny says THREE AND A HALF.

Richard says YES.

Denny says BUT WHO'S COUNTING.

[laughing]

Richard says BUT DID YOU HAVE
TO DO A LOT OF THAT?
'CAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU
WERE A STUDIO GROUP.

Denny says OH, NO, OUR
MANAGEMENT WAS CRAZY.
THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY OUR
MANAGEMENT WAS GOING
TO MAKE ANY MONEY WAS
PUTTING US ON THE ROAD
AND WE DIDN'T
WANT TO WORK.
I THINK IN THE WHOLE TIME WE
WERE TOGETHER, WE DID 35,
40 PERSONAL APPEARANCES, AND
WE COULD HAVE WORKED
EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK
FOR THE ENTIRE TIME,
BUT WE DIDN'T WANT TO.

Richard says YUP.

Denny says THERE'S FOOD IN
THE FRIDGE, WE GOT MONEY,
THERE'S A CAR AND
THERE'S GAS IN THE CAR.
WHY DO YOU
WANT TO WORK?
ARE YOU CRAZY?
BUT YOU COULD MAKE
40,000 dollars A NIGHT.

Richard says YEAH, YEAH.

Denny says AND BACK THEN, 40 GRAND
A NIGHT WAS -
YOU DO THAT EVERY NIGHT OF
THE WEEK FOREVER AND
YOU COULD MAKE A LOT OF
MONEY, AND WE DIDN'T.

Richard says NOW, YOU'VE TALKED OPENLY
AND QUITE OFTEN ABOUT
THE HIGH LIVING THAT
HAPPENED AFTER THIS.
I GUESS WHAT I'M
INTERESTED IN IS NOT,
YOU KNOW, OH, YEAH, HOW MUCH
LIQUOR, HOW MUCH DRUGS,
BUT WHAT DID YOUR
HEADS FEEL LIKE?
WERE YOU SUDDENLY - YOU WERE
LIKE ONE OF THE BIGGEST ACTS
IN THE NATION, IF NOT THE
BIGGEST FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.
DID THAT REGISTER?
DID THAT DO
ANYTHING TO YOU?

Denny says NAH.

Richard says NO?

Denny says NO, WE WENT UP TO L.A. TO
GET OUT OF NEW YORK
AND TAKE MICHELLE HOME,
AND EVERYTHING ELSE
THAT HAPPENED WAS MAGIC.
IT WAS JUST A SEQUENCE OF
EVENTS THAT YOU FINALLY
WOUND UP, BECAUSE FOR ALL
INTENTS AND PURPOSES,
THE GROUP WAS OVER
BEFORE IT EVEN BEGAN.
BECAUSE MICHELLE AND I
STARTED A LITTLE DALLIANCE
BACK ON THE ISLANDS IN '64
AND NOTHING, YOU KNOW,
I CAN'T JUST - HIS
WIFE, CAN'T DO THAT,
IT'S HANDS OFF.
BUT A YEAR LATER,
AFTER BEING, YOU KNOW,
LIVING TOGETHER
FOR ANOTHER YEAR,
BY THE TIME WE
GET TO CALIFORNIA,
WE HAD DONE MORE THAN
SHAKE HANDS, SHALL WE SAY?

Richard says RIGHT, RIGHT.

Denny says AND, AS A MATTER OF FACT,
WE SIGNED THE RECORD DEAL,
SAY, ON MONDAY, AND JOHN AND
MICHELLE AND I SAT DOWN AND
HAD THE CONVERSATION ABOUT
THE ETERNAL TRIANGLE
ON THURSDAY.
THE DEAL WAS SIGNED
AND JOHN'S GOING,
IF I HAD KNOWN
THIS WAS GOING ON,
I'D NEVER THE SIGNED
THE GOD DAMN DEAL.
I'D NEVER SIGN
THIS DEAL.
I SAID, WELL, DO YOU
WANT TO PACK IT IN?
NO.
IT'S LIKE THE MONKEY WITH
HIS HAND IN THE JAR.
HE DIDN'T WANT TO
LET GO OF THE GRAPES.
NO, NO.

Richard says BUT YOU SAID, YOU GOT
THE ETERNAL TRIANGLE,
THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON
YOU KEEP COMING BACK
TO IS CASS, AND I THINK...

Denny says BROKE HER HEART.

Richard says I THINK ABOUT “WORDS OF LOVE.”
THAT SHE SANG THAT OPEN
VOCAL ON IT, EVEN THOUGH THE
MUSIC WAS KIND OF WONDERFUL,
HONKY-TONK, I NOW THINK BACK
TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
AND WAS HER HEART BREAKING
DURING ALL OF THIS?

Denny says SURE.
YEAH.
I HURT HER TERRIBLY.
SO DID MICHELLE
HURT HER TERRIBLY,
AND MICHELLE WAS LIKE
HER BEST FRIEND.
AND I HAD BEEN WITH HER
FOR YEARS BEFORE THAT.
IT WAS LIKE IT WAS A
BETRAYAL, AND IT WAS.
IT WAS A BETRAYAL FOR
EVERYBODY INVOLVED,
AND THAT'S BEFORE “CALIFORNIA
DREAMIN' “WAS RELEASED.

Richard says EVEN RELEASED.

Denny says YEAH.
EVERYTHING WAS
IN THE CAN.
OH, GOD, WAS EVERYTHING IN
THE CAN AND THEN IT JUST
BLEW UP OUT OF THE CAN,
BUT YOU GOT A HIT RECORD.
I'M WALKING ALONG THE STREET
TO GET OUT OF THE HOUSE
THAT WE WERE ALL LIVING IN
JUST BECAUSE IT WAS VERY
UNCOMFORTABLE TO BE
THERE AFTER THE CARDS
WERE ON THE TABLE.
WHAT ARE WE
GOING TO DO?
WELL, MICHELLE AND I, GO
BACK TO YOUR HUSBAND.
LEAVE ME ALONE,
YOU GUYS.
JOHN AND MICHELLE GOT A
PLACE UP IN LAUREL CANYON.
CASS JUST, YOU KNOW -
(muttering)
SHE GOT HER OWN
PLACE AND I GOT
MY OWN PLACE, BUT I'M OUT
WALKING ON THE STREET
AND DAVID CROSBY PULLS UP IN
HIS CAR WITH THE SUN ROOF,
SCREECHES THE BRAKES,
STANDS UP IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE SUN ROOF GOING,
YEAH, MAN, YEAH!
I SAID, WHAT?
DAVID, WHAT?
HE SAID, YOU
GOT A HIT!
YOU GOT A BIG HIT!
HE'S IN THE
BYRDS, RIGHT?
THEY'VE GOT HITS.
HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S
TALKING ABOUT.
I SAID, WHAT ARE YOU
TALKING ABOUT, DAVID?
HE SAID, “CALIFORNIA
DREAMIN',” MAN!
IT'S GOT BILLBOARD,
LOOK AT THIS.

Richard says AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

Denny says I SAID, A BULLET?
WHAT ARE YOU
TALKING ABOUT?
WHAT IS BILLBOARD?
I'M LOOKING,
BILLBOARD.
HE'S NO, THIS IS A
MAGAZINE TRADE PAPER.
YOU GOT A HIT RECORD.
BIGGEST RECORD IN
BOSTON IN 30 YEARS.
WHAT DOES THAT
MEAN, DAVID?
YOU'VE GOT A
HIT RECORD!
OH, OKAY.
THEN WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND
GO, WE GOT A HIT RECORD.
OH, SHIT.

Richard says NOW YOU HAVE TO GO -

Denny says NO, AND THE
COMPANY'S GOING,
WE NEED ANOTHER
ALBUM NOW.
ANOTHER ALBUM.
PRODUCT, PRODUCT, PRODUCT.
AND WE GET TOGETHER TO
DO PRODUCT AND IT WAS,
TALK ABOUT YOUR
SOAP OPERAS, BOY.

Richard says SO, YOU SET UP THIS
ASTONISHING SCENARIO
THAT JUST AS THE
PROFESSIONALS -

Denny says JUST AS THE TRAIN COMES IN.

Richard says THE TRAIN'S COMING IN.
EVERYBODY WANTS OFF.

Denny says OH, YEAH.

Richard says BUT WHAT HELD YOU
TOGETHER, THEN?
WAS IT MONEY?

Denny says THE 30,000 dollar
CHEQUES AND YOU CAN
HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says IF WE STAY TOGETHER.

Richard says IF YOU STAY TOGETHER.

Denny says AND, AS I SAY, IT
WAS LIKE THE MONKEY
WITH HIS HAND IN
THE JAR OF GRAPES.
YOU'VE GOT TO LET GO OF
THEM TO GET YOUR HAND OUT,
BUT THEN YOU LOSE THE
GRAPES, SO WHAT DO YOU DO?
YOU SMASH THE VASE?
WHAT DO YOU DO,
YOU KNOW?
HANG ON, WE'RE GOING
FOR A BUFFETING HERE.

Richard says RIGHT.
AND YOU GOT BUFFETED
QUITE A BIT.

Denny says WELL, THE FACT THAT
MICHELLE AND I HAD AN AFFAIR
BROKE ANY KIND OF THING
THAT SHE AND JOHN HAD,
AND BROKE ANY KIND OF THING
THAT CASS AND I WOULD EVER HAVE,
SO EVERYBODY WAS ALL
AT SEA IN THEIR OWN -
LIKE, JOHN AND MICHELLE
TRIED TO LIVE TOGETHER
AFTER THAT, BUT ONCE
MICHELLE TASTED FREEDOM,
SHE WAS 19 YEARS OLD.
JOHN HAD ALREADY HAD
A WIFE AND A FAMILY
THAT HE LEFT FOR HER.

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says AND SHE WAS GOING, I'M
FREE, AND IT'S IN HOLLYWOOD,
HER HOMETOWN, AND SHE'S
A ROCK-AND-ROLL STAR,
AND SHE'S BEAUTIFUL AND WANTS
TO DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says MADE HIM CRAZY.
MADE ME CRAZY.
MADE HER CRAZY.
EVERYBODY BUT MICHELLE,
BECAUSE SHE WAS
HAVING A GREAT
TIME, YOU KNOW?

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says SO IT WAS AN UNTENABLE
SITUATION TO SAY THE LEAST.

Richard says WHAT FINALLY
WOUND UP, I GUESS,
PUTTING A BIG FULL STOP TO
EVERYTHING AFTER A WHILE
WAS THAT CASS
PASSED AWAY.

Denny says YEAH.

Richard says SUDDENLY AND, WELL, TO
THE WORLD, UNEXPECTEDLY.
UNEXPECTEDLY TO YOU?

Denny says OH, SURE.
OH, YEAH.
IF SHE'D NOT BEEN ALONE, WHO
KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.
HOW THE HELL YOU PUT THE
HEIMLICH ON HER ANYWAY.
GOT TO PUNCH HER IN THE
CHEST OR SOMETHING.
SHE HAD A HEART ATTACK.
SHE WAS CHOKING AND SHE HAD
A HEART ATTACK BY HERSELF,
AND IF SOMEBODY
HAD BEEN AROUND,
IT MIGHT'VE BEEN A DIFFERENT
STORY, BUT THAT'S THE STORY.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.
SHE DIED.
BUT EVERYBODY THOUGHT, OH,
SHE WAS INTO DRUGS
AND WAS HEROIN AND SHE
WAS SHOOTING JUNK
BECAUSE SHE WAS IN KEITH
MOON'S OLD APARTMENT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says THAT WAS A
SHOOTING GALLERY.
WASN'T THE CASE.
IT'S JUST THAT IN ENGLAND,
WHEN THEY CAN'T FIND
THE CAUSE OF DEATH
RIGHT AWAY, BY LAW,
FOUL PLAY IS SUSPECTED.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says WELL, THE MEDIA
HEARD FOUL PLAY.
KEITH MOON'S APARTMENT,
JUNK, ROCK AND ROLL.
BANG, RIGHT AWAY, IT WAS
ASSUMED IT WAS HEROIN,
BUT IT WAS A
HEART ATTACK.

Richard says NOW, WHEN THIS HAPPENED,
NOW YOU SIT BACK AND SAY,
I REALIZE THAT CASS DID A LOT
FOR US AND HOW YOU OWE THE -

Denny says OH, I KNEW AT THE TIME.

Richard says DID YOU KNOW IT THEN, TOO?

Denny says OF COURSE, OH, YEAH.

Richard says AND SO, WHAT WAS
YOUR REACTION?

Denny says WHEN SHE DIED?

Richard says YEAH.

Denny says WELL, I MEAN, IT WAS
LIKE, IF YOUR BEST FRIEND
WERE TO DIE, HOW
DO YOU FEEL?
YOU'RE STUNNED.
YOU'RE SHOCKED.
YOU'RE SAD.
IT'S ALL OF THOSE THINGS
AND ALSO IT'S THE END
OF ANY PROSPECT THAT YOU
MIGHT EVER GET BACK TOGETHER
AS A GROUP AGAIN.
THAT'S FINISHED.
JOHN AND I PUT THE
GROUP BACK TOGETHER
IN THE '80s, BUT IT WAS
BY WAY OF, YOU KNOW,
GOING I'M BORED
OUT OF MY MIND.
WELL, DO YOU WANT
TO DO SOMETHING?
I DON'T KNOW, WHAT DO
YOU WANT TO DO?
DO YOU WANT TO
GO BOWLING?
NO, LET'S PUT THE
GROUP BACK TOGETHER.

Richard says BUT YOU'VE DONE A PLAY CALLED
DREAM A LITTLE DREAM OF ME,
AND IT WAS DONE WITH GREAT
SUCCESS AT NEPTUNE THEATRE.
WE HOPE WILL BE AROUND HERE
IN ONTARIO VERY SHORTLY.
PAUL LEDOUX AND YOU
COLLABORATED ON IT.

Denny says IT TOOK FIVE YEARS, BUT IT
WAS BY WAY OF EXPLAINING
ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW,
PEOPLE ASK US SAYING,
HOW DID YOU
GET TOGETHER?
WELL, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN
ONE AFTERNOON AT 3:00.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says IT TOOK A LONG TIME, FROM
LEAVING HALIFAX IN 1960
TO '65 AND FIVE YEARS LATER
IN HOLLYWOOD, YOU KNOW?
IT TOOK FIVE YEARS TO
GET TO THE POINT
WHERE YOU HAVE
A HIT RECORD.

Richard says AND YOU'VE BEEN GOING ON
TALKING AGAIN ABOUT
HOW IMPORTANT CASS
WAS TO THE PICTURE.
IS THE PLAY KIND OF WAY
OF MAKING AMENDS TO HER?

Denny says OH, YES, MAKING
AMENDS TO HER,
BUT BY EXPLAINING THINGS
TO PEOPLE SO THAT,
YOU KNOW, SHE
GETS HER DUE.
SHE'D BEEN
OVERLOOKED.
SHE'S NOT AROUND TO
SPEAK FOR HERSELF.
HER DAUGHTER, OWEN, WHO'S
LIVING OUT IN CALIFORNIA,
DIDN'T REALLY
KNOW HER MOTHER.
SHE WAS 7 YEARS
OLD WHEN SHE DIED,
SO SHE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE AN
IDEA OF WHAT SHE WAS LIKE
AS A PERSON, AS A
PERFORMER, AND AS SOMEBODY,
AN ENTITY IN THAT GROUP.
AND, BOY, SHE WAS DEFINITELY
AN ENTITY IN THAT GROUP
AND WAS READY TO TAKE
OFF ON HER OWN.
SHE HAD THE WORLD BY
THE SHORT AND CURLIES
AT THAT POINT.
BECAUSE SHE WAS A
GREAT ACTRESS,
IF YOU
DIDN'T KNOW.
SHE HAD A REAL SENSE OF
DRAMA AND OF THEATRE,
AND SHE CAME TO NEW YORK
TO GET INVOLVED
IN BROADWAY THEATRE,
MUSICAL COMEDY.

Richard says RIGHT.

Denny says BUT SHE WENT
TO AN AUDITION.
BARBRA STREISAND
SANG SOMETHING
AND SHE JUST
WENT, OHHH...
[laughing]
STREISAND WENT TO THE SAME
AUDITION AND SHE'S, OH,
I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

[laughing]

Richard says AND YOU'VE DONE AMAZINGLY
WELL WITH YOUR LIFE.
YOU TOOK A COUPLE
OF CHANGES,
LEFT THE HIGH LIVING
IN THE PAST BEHIND.
YOU EVEN JOKINGLY TALK
SOMETIMES ABOUT HOW,
NOW YOU'RE
RUNNING AROUND.
THEODORE TUGBOAT IS VERY
IMPORTANT AND YOU SAID,
YEAH, I'M SO GLAMOROUS.
HERE I AM DEMONSTRATING
TUGBOATS IN SCHOOLS AROUND.

Denny says THEY SHOT THE SHOW IN
MY OLD SCHOOL IN HALIFAX,
ALEXANDER MCKAY SCHOOL.
AND I WAS IN MY GRADE 5
CLASSROOM, AHH, Miss O'NEILL.
SHE WAS LOVELY - AND THAT'S
WHERE THEY MAKE THE MODELS.
THE GUY'S GOING,
WELL, HOW'RE YOU DOING?
WHAT'S DOING, DEN?
HOW'S CALIFORNIA,
DOING AND ALL THAT?
I SAID, YEAH, I'VE BEEN ALL
OVER THE WORLD AND DONE
ALL THESE THINGS AND GETTING
AWARDS AND GOLD RECORDS
AND I SAID, I'M BACK IN
MY GRADE 5 CLASSROOM
PLAYING WITH TUG TOYS.
[laughs]
LIFE HAS A WAY OF, YOU
KNOW, CENTERING YOU
WHETHER YOU LIKE
IT OR NOT.

Richard says BUT YOU HAVE PROVED, DENNY,
THAT YOU CAN GO HOME AGAIN
AND YOU CAN SING ABOUT
IT WHEN YOU GET THERE.
AND IT'S BEEN GREAT TO
HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY.

Denny says THANK YOU.

Richard says DENNY DOHERTY, THANK YOU.

They shake hands.

Denny says THANK YOU, RICHARD.
GOOD TO SEE
YOU AGAIN.

Richard says THANK YOU, NICE
TO SEE YOU.

He faces the screen and concludes
FOR
DIALOGUE, I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOODBYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Special thanks to Centro, Grill and Wine Bar. Dialogue.”

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1998, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Denny Doherty