Transcript: Daniel MacIvor | Mar 07, 1999

(Rhythmic string and wind music plays)

In animation, a word in pink slides by against a gray background as hands paint strokes using paintbrushes, play a piano, and touch as in a ballet performance.

The title of the show reads “Dialogue.”

The title of the episode pops up against an image of Richard Ouzounian and a guest sitting at a table in a café: “Daniel MacIvor. Actor.”

Richard appears facing the screen. He's in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side-parted blond hair. He's wearing rounded glasses, a black suit, blue shirt, and matching striped tie.

He says WELCOME TO DIALOGUE.
I'M RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
FOR THE PAST DECADE SOME OF
THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY THEATRE
IN TORONTO HAS BEEN
DONE BY MY NEXT GUEST.
THESE PLAYS ARE FULL OF AN
ASSORTMENT OF CHARACTERS
YOU WILL NEVER FORGET.
WHAT MAKES THEM MEMORABLE IS
THAT THEY ARE ALL WRITTEN AND
PORTRAYED BY THE SAME PERSON.
THIS DIALOGUE IS
WITH DANIEL MACIVOR.

Daniel is in his forties, clean-shaven, with wavy brown hair. He’s wearing a black cardigan over a white shirt.

Richard continues DANIEL, WELCOME.
I'M DELIGHTED TO
HAVE YOU HERE.
I WANT TO START WITH YOUR MOST
RECENT WORK, MONSTER, WHICH
TOTALLY BLEW ME AWAY, AND, I
GUESS, I'M NOT GOING TO EVEN
TRY TO EXPLAIN IT
TO OUR VIEWERS.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS
JUST BEFORE THE CAMERAS ROLLED.
IT'S NOT THE KIND OF SHOW
ONE WANTS TO EXPLAIN IN A
LINEAR FASHION, BUT WHAT
I WANT TO ASK YOU IS,
WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
WHAT GERM STARTED IT?

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Daniel MacIvor. Actor."

Daniel says WELL, I HAD BEEN DOING -- IT
WAS MY FOURTH SOLO WORK OVER
THE LAST, YOU KNOW,
TEN YEARS OR SOMETHING.
AND THERE WAS THIS -- THE IDEA
ABOUT SOLO WORK IS THAT --
SPECIFICALLY THE WORK THAT WE
DO, WHICH IS DIRECT ADDRESS --
IS THAT IT'S A RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE AUDIENCE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF
ISSUES ABOUT WANTING THE
AUDIENCE'S LOVE OR, YOU
KNOW, POSITIVE ATTENTION AND
RESENTING THAT AS A PERFORMER.
THERE'S A LOT OF ISSUES
ABOUT LOVING AND HATING
THE AUDIENCE.
AND SO, WE WERE REHEARSING
THE LAST SOLO SHOW, WHICH IS
CALLED
HERE LIES HENRY, AND IN
FRONT OF AN EMPTY THEATRE OF
SEATS, AND I SUDDENLY DECIDED
TO TURN ON THE AUDIENCE.
AND DANIEL BROOKS, OUR
DIRECTOR, AND MY SORT OF
PARTNER IN THE COMPANY, WAS
SORT OF STUNNED BY MY, YOU
KNOW, RAGE AT THE AUDIENCE,
AND THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS A
FASCINATING IDEA FOR A SHOW.
SO, THAT WAS
ACTUALLY THE FIRST.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- I THINK,
THE FIRST THING I SAID WAS,
WELL I'M GLAD TO
SEE YOU ALL HERE.
UNFORTUNATELY YOU ALL ARE
OLDER AND UGLIER AND STUPIDER
THAN YOU USED TO BE.
YOU KNOW, AND SUDDENLY IT
WAS LIKE WE WERE GOING,
“OH MY, IMAGINE THAT.”
BUT THAT WAS SORT OF THE FIRST
SEEDS OF TAPPING INTO THAT
KIND RESENTMENT
OF THE AUDIENCE.
AND THEN, OF COURSE, SORT OF
STARTED TURNING THAT INSIDE,
AND WHAT DID THAT MEAN?
AND WHAT DID THAT MEAN?
AND WHAT DID THAT
SAY ABOUT ME?
AND THE WORK IS VERY MUCH
ABOUT SORT OF MY PSYCHOLOGY,
AND OUR PSYCHOLOGY AS
A GROUP, AND SO THAT'S SORT
OF WHERE IT ALL CAME
FROM, JUST THAT ONE IDEA.

Richard says THIS IS INTERESTING YOU
RAISED THAT BECAUSE I OFTEN
HAVE THE FEELING WHEN I SEE A
LOT OF ONE-MAN SHOWS THAT THEY
ARE ACTS OF EGOTISM.
SOMEBODY HAS COME ALONG AND
FOUND -- USUALLY THE VEHICLE
IS, THEY FIND SOMEBODY IN
HISTORY OR LITERATURE THEY
THINK WOULD BE SWELL TO
PLAY FOR A COUPLE OF HOURS.

Daniel says YEAH, YEAH.

Richard says AND SO THEY GET TO GO
THROUGH ALL THEIR HOOPS.
OH, I GET TO BE SAD.
I GET TO BE FUNNY.
I GET TO BE ANGRY, BUT THAT
NEVER SEEMS TO BE WHAT'S
ON YOUR MIND.
I MEAN, I ALMOST SOMETIMES
THINK YOU WISH THAT THE
AUDIENCE AS A LOVE PARTNER
WASN'T SITTING THERE.

Daniel says WELL, YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK
THAT -- I GUESS THAT'S VERY
INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT MAKES
ME THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT
IT'S LIKE -- WHEN YOU ENTER
ONE OF THESE SHOWS, IT'S LIKE
YOU'VE ENTERED THAT POINT IN A
RELATIONSHIP WHERE IT'S TOO
LATE TO LEAVE.
AND YOU KNOW, SO YOU HAVE TO --
YOU'RE SORT OF LED TO THAT
LOVE-HATE THING THAT HAPPENS.
IT'S VERY -- IT'S INTERESTING.
THAT'S -- AND THAT'S WHY
DANIEL BROOKS MAKES SUCH A
GREAT COLLABORATOR, BECAUSE HE
UNDERSTANDS THE MEGALOMANIACAL
NATURE OF THE PROJECTS.
NOT EVEN -- NOT NECESSARILY
THAT WE ARE BEING VERY SELFISH
NECESSARILY, BUT THAT THE
CONCEPT OF A ONE-MAN SHOW, AS
YOU SAY, IS AT ITS, YOU
KNOW, FOUNDATION, PRETTY AN
EGO-DRIVEN THING.

Richard says BUT YOU'RE NOT -- YOU USUALLY
DON'T DO THE SHOWS THAT
ULTIMATELY ARE
ALL ABOUT LOVE ME.
IN FACT, ONE COULD ARGUE THAT
YOU USUALLY PUT SOME PRETTY
DISLIKEABLE PEOPLE
UP ON THE STAGE.

Daniel says YEAH, 'HATE ME, PLEASE'.

Richard says I MEAN THAT'S THE OTHER
SIDE OF IT, ISN'T IT?

Daniel says YEAH.

Richard says YOU KNOW, “STOP ME
BEFORE I KILL AGAIN.”

Daniel says YEAH, AND I GUESS THERE'S --
I GUESS THERE IS -- I GUESS
THERE IS ENORMOUS COMIC
POTENTIAL IN THAT, AND ALSO --
BUT ALSO I THINK THERE'S
POTENTIAL FOR US ALL TO SEE
THAT VOICE IN EACH OF US THAT
IS YELLING, “HATE ME, HATE ME.”
“I'M NOT WORTHY.”

Richard says YOU KNOW, THERE'S SOMETHING
INTERESTING -- I KNOW --
DANIEL BROOKS' WORK, NOW HE'S
NOT HERE BUT WE'LL TALK
ABOUT HIM AND TELL HIM LATER
WE TALKED ABOUT HIM, IS IN
THE LAST 18 MONTHS OR SO, HE
STARTED TO GET TIGHTER
AND TIGHTER IN WORKS, OTHER
THAN YOURS, ABOUT WHAT
HE CAN DO PHYSICALLY
WITH THE STAGE.
THE USE OF LIGHT.
THE USE OF SOUND.
THE USE OF FOCUS.
AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I SAW
MONSTER IS THAT IT LOOKS LIKE
THE FREEZE-DRIED VERSION OF
EVERYTHING WE HAD BEFORE,
SUDDENLY, LIGHT, SOUND -- I
MEAN, HARDLY A LOT HAPPENS
PHYSICALLY BUT IT
SEEMS TO HAVE THE MOST
GUT-WRENCHING REACTION.
AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE
TWO OF YOU HAVE BEEN MOVING
TOWARDS A POINT TOGETHER, YOU
KNOW, ON YOUR SEPARATE PATHS.

Daniel says I THINK A LOT OF THAT HAS TO
DO WITH THE FACT THAT WE'VE
BEEN FEELING A PULL TOWARD THE
FILM WORLD, BOTH OF US, BOTH
TOGETHER AND SEPARATELY.
JUST BECAUSE THAT'S THE NATURE
OF BEING -- YOU KNOW, HAVING
WORKED IN THIS -- IN THEATRE
FOR SO LONG, AND SOMETIMES
BEING -- SOMETIMES WONDERING
WHY WE HAVE TO WORK SO HARD TO
PUT A SHOW UP WHEN, IF YOU HAD
A FILM, YOU WOULD JUST PUT
A STAMP ON IT
AND IT SORT OF...

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says SO, I THINK THAT A LOT OF
THE WORK THAT WE'VE DONE IN
MONSTER IS A REACTION
AGAINST THAT PULL.
SO THAT IT'S ABOUT,
WELL, WHAT IS IT ABOUT CINEMA
THAT'S INTERESTING?
AND WHAT IS IT ABOUT THEATRE
IS ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE ABOUT
THEATRE AND THAT YOU
CAN'T DO IN CINEMA?
AND SO, THAT'S, I THINK,
INSPIRED A LOT OF THIS SORT OF
THE TECHNICAL -- AND ALSO, THE
FACT IS, IN THE SHOW, IS I
DON'T MOVE FROM MY SPOT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says I DO STEP OFF TO GET A PROP
AND COME BACK, BUT OTHER THAN
THAT, I DON'T MOVE, AND THAT
WAS SOMETHING THAT -- ALTHOUGH
WE DIDN'T ENFORCE THAT SORT OF
IN A WAY AT THE BEGINNING SO
THAT IT DIDN'T BECOME THIS
SORT OF JUST SORT OF ARBITRARY
CHOICE OR NON-ORGANIC CHOICE
SO THAT THE WORK WOULD BE
FIXED TO THAT.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says I THINK THAT IT HAD A HUGE
EFFECT ON WHAT HAPPENED AROUND
IT BECAUSE -- SO, WE KNEW THEN
THAT IT WAS THE WORLD AROUND
IT THAT HAD TO KEEP SHIFTING
AND CHANGING IN A WAY THAT I
CAN'T STEP INTO ANOTHER
PLACE ON THE STAGE.
SO I THINK THAT HAD A
LOT TO DO WITH IT, TOO.

Richard says IT ALSO CREATES THIS
INCREDIBLE PRESSURE BECAUSE
YOU DON'T DO WHAT I OFTEN
CALLED THE FUNNY HAT SCHOOL OF
ONE-MAN SHOW, WHICH IS, I'M
GOING TO PLAY ALL THESE
DIFFERENT CHARACTERS AND --
AND NOW YOU DO PLAY A VARIETY
OF CHARACTERS, AND YOU DO IT
VOCALLY AND WITH POSTURE, BUT
YOU NEVER GET THE FEELING
YOU'RE WATCHING A PARTY PIECE,
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THAT.

Daniel says RIGHT.
YEAH, IT DOESN'T -- IT
TRIES -- I THINK WE --
IT TRIES NOT TO SHOW OFF
THAT WAY, YOU KNOW?
AND ALSO BECAUSE -- WITH THE
WORK, WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT
WHAT'S ESSENTIAL, AND THIS IS
WHERE DANIEL BROOKS AND I
AGREE SO CLEARLY, IS
THAT TO HAVE A PROP IS --
IT HAS TO BE AN ENORMOUS
THING TO HAVE A GLASS OR
TO HAVE A HAT.
AND YOU HAVE TO START ASKING,
WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?
AND WHERE IS ITS REALITY?
WHERE DOES IT COME FROM IN THE
WORLD THAT WE'RE CREATING?
DOES THAT MEAN THE PLAY STOPS
WHILE I PUT THE HAT ON?
WHERE AM I GETTING THE HAT?
WHY IS THE HAT THERE?
YOU KNOW, ON AND ON IT
GOES TO ALL THE WHYS.
I MEAN, IT'S ALL ABOUT ASKING,
WELL, “WHY IS THIS HERE?”
AND SO WHAT WE END UP ENDING
UP WITH IS NOTHING OR, YOU
KNOW, A GLASS.
IN MONSTER THERE IS A GLASS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says WE WERE AT A WORKSHOP IN
SHOMRIM, BALTIMORE AND WE HAD
THIS IDEA THAT I WOULDN'T MOVE
AND THAT THE GLASS WOULD FLY
IN, AND SO WE WORKED ON THAT
FOR A WHILE, BUT IT JUST
BECAME SO PRETENTIOUS, THIS
GLASS FLYING IN OR COMING, YOU
KNOW, A LOW-RATE VERSION AS
THIS GLASS COMING IN AND...

Richard says DO YOU START WITH PROPS AND
THEN TAKE THEM AWAY, OR DO YOU
NOT EVEN LET YOURSELF
GET TO THAT POINT?

Daniel says I TRY TO ELIMINATE...
I TRY NOT TO... NO PROPS.
THE IDEA IS NO PROPS.
AND THEN THINGS KEEP INSISTING
ON, LIKE A GLASS, FOR EXAMPLE,
WHICH IS INSIDE THE THEME OF
MONSTER, YOU KNOW, CAN PLAY ON
MANY LEVELS, A GLASS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says LIQUID IN A GLASS AND
ALL THAT SORT OF THING.
BUT, YEAH, WE TRY AND START
WITH NOTHING IDEALLY.

Richard says AND THEN MAKE IT GO FROM
THERE, WHATEVER HAS TO
COME ON LATER.

Daniel says YEAH, WHATEVER.
AND EVEN THOSE THINGS OFTEN
END UP BECOMING UNNECESSARY,
YOU KNOW.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says I MEAN, IT'S MAGIC, YOU KNOW?
I MEAN, IN SOME WAYS I SUPPOSE
IF -- WE DO A LITTLE EFFECT
WITH THE WATER, BUT IF WE
DIDN'T, I THINK THAT I COULD
JUST AS EASILY DO THAT AND, IF
I BELIEVED IT, IF THAT'S THE
MAGIC, THAT WOULD WORK.
SO, YEAH, IDEALLY IT'S NOT
ABOUT -- IT'S TRYING NOT TO
GET CAUGHT UP WITH OBJECTS AND
ISSUES OUTSIDE THE CONCERNS,
THE SPECIFIC CONCERNS.
SOMETHING THAT WE -- YOU KNOW,
ONE OF OUR LITTLE MANTRAS IS,
WE DON'T WANT THE AUDIENCE
THINKING ABOUT THINGS THEY
SHOULDN'T BE THINKING ABOUT.

Richard says THAT'S GOOD.

Daniel says WHICH IS EXACTLY -- YOU KNOW
TRYING TO KEEP THE EXPERIENCE
IN THE ROOM, REALLY
PROFOUNDLY IN THE ROOM.

Richard says IN THAT ROOM, BY THE TIME YOU
GOT TO TORONTO, IT WAS A REAL
HIGH-TECH PIECE, AND I DON'T
MEAN THAT IN A NEGATIVE SENSE,
BUT THE WAY THAT THE SOUND
AND THE LIGHTS WERE USED WERE
POWERFUL AND IMPECCABLE
AND REAL STATE-OF-THE-ART.
BUT YOU TRIED IT
IN A LOT OF AREAS.
YOU TRIED IT, I BELIEVE, IN
ANTIGONISH, IN BALTIMORE,
IN CALGARY.
WAS IT THAT TECHNICAL THERE,
OR DID THIS KIND OF COME
GRADUALLY ON TOP OF THE SHOW?

Daniel says WELL, I THINK THAT AS WE GOT
MORE CONFIDENT WITH THE TEXT
AND THE PERFORMANCE, WE
ALLOWED OURSELVES TO EXPLORE
THE TECHNICAL MORE.
BUT I THINK THAT THE THING
ABOUT IT THAT REMAINS CONSTANT
IS THAT IN EVERY INSTANCE
ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN THE
TECH IS MOTIVATED
ORGANICALLY FROM SOMETHING
I'VE DONE OR SAID, AND
SOMETIMES IT'S DOWN TO --
IT'S LIKE AN EMOTIONAL SHIFT,
BUT STILL IT'S COMING FROM
WITHIN ME.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says SO THAT THE TECH IS -- IT'S
ALL LIKE TENTACLES FROM THE
PERFORMER OR THE PERFORMANCE.

Richard says IT'S LIKE THE PROPS.
BEFORE YOU HAVE TO
HAVE -- THERE HAS TO BE
A REALITY FOR IT
AND A REASON FOR IT.

Daniel says AND THEY'RE -- THEY'RE
ALMOST SORT OF INVISIBLY
PHYSICALLY CONNECTED TO ME.
SO THAT IT'S NOT AGAIN THINGS
HAPPENING HERE AND AFFECTING
ME SO MUCH.
SO, AND THAT WAS
ALWAYS A CONSTANT.
SO BUT EVEN IN -- I MEAN EVEN
IN ANTIGONISH IN THE SMALL
THEATRE WHERE WE HAD MAYBE, I
DON'T KNOW, 8 TO 10 LIGHTS OR
SOMETHING, BUT STILL PEOPLE
COMMENTED ON THE LIGHTING, AND
WE REALIZED THAT IT WAS PARTLY
BECAUSE WHAT ONE OF THE THINGS
THAT WE'VE SORT OF JUST AGREED
TO DO WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT IS
THAT THE LIGHT IS VISIBLE.

Richard says MM-HMM, YES.

Daniel says IT HAS EDGES, AND IT'S NOT
ABOUT JUST GENERAL AREAS AND
ABOUT JUST SORT OF LIGHTING MY
BODY NECESSARILY AS CREATING
SPACE WITH LIGHT.
SO THAT IT'S A THING THAT I
GUESS PEOPLE -- ESPECIALLY IN
A PLACE THAT DOESN'T, LIKE
ANTIGONISH OR PLACES IN NOVA
SCOTIA, WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE
A LOT OF THEATRE, NEW THEATRE
ESPECIALLY, IT'S NOT
SOMETHING THAT THEY GET TO
SEE A LOT, THAT YOU SEE
THAT THE LIGHT IS VISIBLE.
IT IS NOT HIDDEN, SO THAT,I
THINK, BECOMES ALMOST...
IT BECOMES HIGH-TECH
IN THAT SIMPLE WAY.

Richard says I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHERE
MONSTER -- WHERE IT HAS LED US
THEMATICALLY, BUT TO DO THAT I
WANT TO PEDAL ALL THE WAY BACK
BECAUSE -- IN AN ATTEMPT TO
FIND OUT HOW YOU GOT THERE AND
WHERE YOU CAME FROM.
BORN AND RAISED IN SYDNEY?

Daniel says MM-HMM.

Richard says IN CAPE BRETON.

Daniel says MM-HMM.

Richard says NOW, THAT'S A
STATEMENT IN ITSELF.
WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU?

Daniel says WELL, SYDNEY IS -- YOU KNOW,
IT'S FULL OF PARADOXES AND, I
MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE,
IT HAS A STEEL -- ITS MAIN
INDUSTRY IS STEEL IS A STEEL
PLANT THAT I DON'T THINK IN MY
LIFETIME HAS ACTUALLY
PRODUCED STEEL.
I THINK THEY'VE HAD A FEW
ORDERS FOR RAILS, BUT YOU KNOW
REALLY IT'S NOT A FUNCTIONING
STEEL PLANT, SO THAT MOST OF
MY TIME -- AND MY BROTHERS AND
MY FATHER HAD AT ALL ONE TIME
OR ANOTHER WORKED AT THE
STEEL PLANT AND THE WHOLE --
THE STEEL PLANT
WAS ABOUT UPKEEP.
THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WERE
DOING THERE WAS KEEPING UP
THE FURNACES AND KEEPING...
BUT NOTHING WAS
ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

Richard says IN CASE THEY
EVER GOT THE CALL.

Daniel says IN CASE THEY GOT CALLED,
WHICH IS -- AND SO JUST TAKE
THAT AND THEN PLUG THAT INTO,
YOU KNOW, YOUR REALITY.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says YOU KNOW, I WASN'T ENORMOUSLY
CONSCIOUS OF THAT AT THE TIME,
BUT -- AND, YOU KNOW,
IT'S ALSO, SYDNEY HAS
ONE OF THE MOST TOXIC
WASTE DUMPS IN NORTH AMERICA,
IF NOT
THE
MOST TOXIC
FROM THE STEEL PLANT DUMPING
INTO AN OPEN POND.
AND SO, THERE IT IS, SYDNEY IN
THE MIDDLE OF CAPE BRETON,
WHICH IS ONE OF THE
MOST BEAUTIFUL PHYSICAL
PLACES IN THE WORLD.
I MEAN, THE CABOT TRAIL RIVALS
THE ROCKIES OR ANYTHING THAT
YOU CAN IMAGINE.

Richard says IT'S INCREDIBLE.

Daniel says SO HERE YOU HAVE SYDNEY WHICH
IS THIS... IT'S LIKE, YOU
KNOW, A SMALL TUMOUR ON THE
FACE OF THIS BEAUTIFUL ISLAND.
SO IT'S A VERY STRANGE PLACE
TO BE FROM, AND ALSO, BECAUSE
IT'S A CITY, IT HAS THIS SORT
OF COMPETITION WITH HALIFAX,
WHICH IS THE CENTRE, SO IT'S
GOT ALL KINDS OF BIG IDEAS
ABOUT BEING A CITY, AND SO
IT'S A VERY BIZARRE AND
INTERESTING PLACE.
I'M REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE BEEN
FROM THERE BECAUSE I CAN SEE
HOW IT'S AFFECTED ME.

Richard says YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER READING
SOMEWHERE THAT YOU SAID YOU
DELIBERATELY DIDN'T GO NEAR
THEATRE AS A CHILD BECAUSE YOU
THOUGHT THAT WOULD BRAND YOU
OR PUT YOU IN A DIFFERENT
GROUP OR SOMETHING.

Daniel says YES, YEAH.

Richard says WHAT DO THEY THINK
OF THEATRE PEOPLE?

Daniel says OH, WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU
DIDN'T -- WELL, IF YOU WANTED
TO, YOU WERE A LOSER OR A
FAIRY, OR THERE WERE VERY
SPECIFIC THINGS THAT YOU
WERE IF YOU WERE INVOLVED
IN THEATRE.
IT WAS HOCKEY.

Richard says MM-HMM.

Daniel says AND IF IT WASN'T HOCKEY, YOU
MIGHT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN
THE STUDENT COUNCIL, BUT
THAT... YOU DIDN'T WANT TO
GO ANYWHERE PAST THAT.

Richard says WHAT PATH DID YOU TAKE?

Daniel says I DID THE STUDENT COUNCIL.
THE HOCKEY, MY ANKLES JUST
WOULDN'T HANDLE THE HOCKEY.
SO, AND I DID ATTEMPT LACROSSE
BUT THAT WAS JUST AN ABYSMAL
EXPERIENCE, AND BASEBALL, WELL
I GOT BORED IN LEFT FIELD SO,
YOU KNOW, THAT WAS PRETTY
MUCH THE TRUTH, AND WAITING,
STANDING THERE HOLDING THE
GLOVE, LIKE WAITING FOR
SOMETHING TO HAPPEN.
BUT, YES, I WENT, I DID
THE STUDENT COUNCIL THING.
MY MEMORY OF MY
CHILDHOOD IS VERY --
I THINK OF MYSELF AS HAVING
BEEN A BIT PREMEDITATED KIND OF.
I HAD A VERY SPECIFIC
PLAN AS TO HOW TO SURVIVE.

Richard says I WAS GOING TO SAY, IT LOOKS
LIKE YOU SAID, “I DON'T WANT
TO LET THESE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT
I'M REALLY LIKE AT ALL.”

Daniel says OR I THINK I WAS
VERY -- I DIDN'T WANT
TO GET STUCK THERE.
I THINK I WAS REALLY -- YOU
KNOW, TORONTO, I MEAN,
ONE OF THE EARLIEST MEMORIES,
VISUAL MEMORIES I HAVE, ARE
TELEVISION IMAGES OF LIKE
CITY HALL AND... OF TORONTO.
IT WAS ALWAYS A BIG -- IT WAS
SORT OF -- AT THAT TIME ALMOST
TOO BIG FOR ME TO EVEN
IMAGINE BEING IN TORONTO.
BUT I WAS REALLY DRAWN
TO THE URBAN FEELING.

Richard says KIND OF LIKE THE THREE SISTERS,
YOU WANT TO GO TO MOSCOW.

Daniel says EXACTLY.
BUT I NEVER REALLY
THOUGHT I'D GET TO MOSCOW.

Richard says BUT IN THE MEANTIME,
YOU WENT IN THE MIDDLE
AND YOU WENT TO HALIFAX.

Daniel says YEAH.

Richard says AND YOU WENT TO DALHOUSIE?

Daniel says YES, YEAH.

Richard says AGAIN, YOU DECIDED TO
COME OUT ABOUT THE THEATRE
AT THAT POINT.
YOU WERE GOING TO
BE A THEATRE PERSON.

Daniel says WELL, ACTUALLY, NO.
I WAS GOING TO BE -- I WAS
ASPIRING TO BE IN YOUR CHAIR
AT THAT TIME.
I WAS GOING TO DO JOURNALISM
AND THEN GET INTO A
BROADCASTER WAS SOMETHING THAT
WAS SORT OF WHAT I WAS --

Richard says HOW DID YOU GET
STEERED INTO THEATRE?

Daniel says WELL, I WAS... I WAS
JUST REALLY DEPRESSED.
I WAS DEPRESSED BECAUSE I
DIDN'T FEEL LIKE I WAS DOING
WHAT I WANTED TO DO, BUT I HAD
NEVER REALLY TALKED ABOUT WHAT
I WANTED TO DO, WHICH WAS AT
THAT TIME TO ACT, AND I HAD
BEEN WRITING FROM THE TIME I
WAS, YOU KNOW, AN EARLY TEEN I
HAD BEEN WRITING, AND
SO I HAD THIS WOMAN
WHO LIVED ACROSS THE HALL.
SHE WAS STUDYING TO BE A
PSYCHIATRIC NURSE AND SHE
TOOK ME ON AS A LITTLE BIT
OF A -- SHE WAS LIKE,
“WELL, WHY ARE YOU SO UNHAPPY?”
SO FINALLY I ADMITTED TO HER
THAT I WANTED TO BE AN ACTOR.
AND ACTUALLY HER NAME WAS
DEBBIE TOWNSEND, AND I ALWAYS
THINK THAT IF I EVER GET TO
RECEIVE AN AWARD ON LIKE
NATIONAL TELEVISION, THAT SHE
IS THE PERSON THAT I WILL THANK,
BECAUSE I HAVEN'T -- I'VE
TOTALLY LOST CONTACT WITH HER.
BUT, ANYWAY, SHE JUST HELPED
ME TO SEE THAT I NEEDED TO DO
WHAT I WANT TO DO.
SO, I WENT TO SEE MY ENGLISH
PROFESSOR AND SAID, YOU KNOW,
I EXPLAINED THAT I WANTED
TO DO A PLAY AND THEY SAID,
“WELL, WE HAPPEN TO BE
AUDITIONING TONIGHT FOR THE
DRAMA CLUB” AND IT WAS OUR
TOWN, AND I AUDITIONED AND I
GOT THE LEAD, AND THAT
WAS THE END OF THE STORY.
OR THE BEGINNING
OF THE STORY.

Richard says THE LEAD IN THE SENSE
OF BEING THE STAGE MANAGER?

Daniel says NO, GEORGE GIBBS.

Richard says OH, GEORGE.
I WAS GOING TO, GEE, THAT
WOULD'VE BEEN TOO NEAT.

Daniel says YEAH, NO, AND THAT'S THE OTHER
THING THAT DANIEL BROOKS
AND I TALKED ABOUT
NOT TOO LONG AGO.
LIKE, YOU KNOW, WE THINK ABOUT
THESE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW,
I'M DOING ALL THESE DIRECT
ADDRESS PIECES, AND JUST IT
BECOMES -- AND NOT REALLY
REALIZING THAT IT HAS ALOT TO DO
WITH THE FACT THAT THE FIRST
PLAY I EVER DID WAS A PLAY
THAT HAD VERY SPECIFIC
KIND OF DIRECT ADDRESS.

Richard says NOW, WE TALKED ABOUT THIS
RELATIONSHIP YOU HAVE WITH THE
AUDIENCE THAT YOU DON'T WANT
TO LOVE AND NEED THEM, BUT YOU
DO LOVE AND NEED THEM, AND
HATE THEM AND EVERYTHING.
DID YOU SENSE THAT IMMEDIATELY
WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE?

Daniel says WELL, WHAT I SENSED -- THE
THING -- THE MOST PROFOUND
THING I SENSED -- YOU
MEAN BEING ON STAGE?

Richard says YEAH.

Daniel says WAS THE FACT THAT IT WAS
VERY -- I HAD A LINE, AND I
WAS BLOCKED TO WALK ACROSS
THE STAGE AS I SPOKE,
AND I FELT THE
AUDIENCE FOLLOW ME.
AND I FELT THEM WATCH, AND I
REALIZED THAT THE TREMENDOUS
KIND OF POWER THAT ONE HAD IN
A SITUATION THAT -- SO THAT
WAS -- AND I FELT SORT OF
I GUESS IN SOME WAYS I
FELT THAT IT WAS WHAT I HAD
BEEN SORT OF STRUGGLING TOWARD
ALL MY LIFE, AS A CHILD AND
GROWING UP, WAS TO SOMEHOW
TO BE ABLE TO ATTRACT
SOME ATTENTION TO HEAR
WHAT I WAS SAYING.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says AND SO, IT FELT LIKE, YOU
KNOW, AND I GUESS AS SORT OF
SAPPY AS IT SOUNDS, IT DID
FEEL LIKE COMING HOME, EVEN
THOUGH IT WAS A PLACE
I HAD NEVER BEEN.
BUT, YEAH, IT WAS -- THAT
WAS A REMARKABLY SORT OF
LIFE-CHANGING EXPERIENCE.

Richard says AND WAS IT STRAIGHT
AHEAD FROM THERE?
OR WAS THERE STILL A
TUG BACK AND FORTH?

Daniel says NO THEN I DROPPED OUT OF
JOURNALISM PROGRAM AND WENT
INTO THE THEATRE PROGRAM,
WHICH BASICALLY MEANT I HAD,
YOU KNOW, THREE COURSES.
AND THEN I LEFT THE PROGRAM
AND GOT WORK IN NEWFOUNDLAND
AS SORT OF AN APPRENTICE.

Richard says WAS THAT STEPHENVILLE?

Daniel says AT STEPHENVILLE FESTIVAL.

Richard says THIS FESTIVAL WHERE A LOT OF
EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE CUT THEIR
TEETH AND DID ALL KINDS
OF CHALLENGING THINGS.

Daniel says RUN BY THE LATE GREAT MAXIM
MAZUMDAR WHO WAS QUITE A
CHARACTER AND A HALF.
AND HE WOULD PULL IN ALL THESE
YOUNG PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER,
AND THERE WAS A SCHOOL, AND I
MET A TEACHER THERE, AND AS A
RESULT OF THAT, THAT'S WHAT
BROUGHT ME TO TORONTO.

Richard says AND WHEN YOU CAME TO TORONTO,
I REMEMBER, THIS IS LIKE, KIND
OF, THERE'S THE TWO
CAREERS OF DANIEL MACIVOR.
YOU CAME BURSTING IN AS THIS
YOUNG GUY AND YOU HAD A PLAY
PUT ON AT TARRAGON, AND IT --
IT KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE -- I
KNOW IT'S A PAINFUL MEMORY,
BUT IT'S LIKE THE SON OF
DAVID FRENCH.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO
DO YOUR PLAY ABOUT -- YOUR
KITCHEN SINK PLAY ABOUT BEING
IN THE MARITIMES, SOMEWHERE
I'VE NEVER TRAVELLED.
BUT EVEN AT THE TIME
YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T TRYING
TO JUST BE DAVID FRENCH.
WHAT WAS THE LINE?

Daniel says I WAS TRYING TO BE DAVID FRENCH
AND JUDITH THOMPSON, YEAH.

Richard says WHICH IS KIND OF A MARRIAGE I
DON'T EVEN WANT TO THINK ABOUT.

Daniel says WELL, THAT'S I
THINK WHAT HAPPENED.
WHERE THE PLAY ENDED UP AND
THAT'S WHY IT WAS, BUT --
YEAH, NO, THE TARRAGON
EXPERIENCE WAS A VERY
INTERESTING ONE FOR ME, AND A
REALLY IMPORTANT ONE, BECAUSE
THERE WAS -- I LEARNED
SOMETHING THERE WHICH I'M
STILL, YOU KNOW, I STRUGGLE
WITH EVERY TIME I APPROACH
SOMETHING, WHICH IS, THE
MANIPULATION OF ACTION OR THE
MANIPULATION OF NARRATIVE,
AND WHICH IS, I GUESS, A
FUNDAMENTAL THING THAT
ONE MUST DO IN ORDER TO
CREATE A STORY OR TO CREATE A
PIECE OF A PLAY, BUT IT'S A
VERY DANGEROUS THING TO DO
BECAUSE WE OFTEN START TO
BELIEVE THAT WE'RE
SMARTER THAN OUR PLAY.
IN FACT, I BELIEVE THAT
THE PLAY HAS AN ENERGY
THAT IT PROBABLY KNOWS
MORE ABOUT WHAT WE ARE
THINKING THAN WE KNOW.

Richard says RIGHT, RIGHT.

Daniel says BECAUSE OF WHERE IT'S COMING
FROM IN THE CREATIVE PROCESS
AND SO ON, BUT I THINK THAT
THAT EXPERIENCE SHOWED ME
THAT, IF YOU START TO
MANIPULATE NARRATIVE, YOU
OFTEN BRING IT TO A PLACE
WHERE... WHERE PREDICTABLE
KIND OF THINGS WILL HAPPEN.
THE EASY CHOICES WILL HAPPEN.
AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS
RESOLUTION, AND THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT -- REALLY THE
FUNDAMENTAL THING THAT I
STRUGGLE WITH IS RESOLUTION,
BECAUSE I THINK THERE NEEDS TO
BE SOME SENSE OF RESOLUTION
ON ONE LEVEL WHETHER IT BE
EMOTIONAL OR NARRATIVE
FOR THE AUDIENCE.
I DON'T THINK THAT YOU CAN
JUST THROW SOMETHING OUT
AND LEAVE IT SO OPEN THAT
THERE'S NO -- WHERE FEELS
LIKE PEOPLE DON'T
REALLY HAVE A VISION?

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
TO MANIPULATE THINGS TO
RESOLUTION EVERYTHING -- IT
BECOMES SIMPLE AND EASY TO
LEAVE IN THE SPACE.
IT BECOMES DONE
AND IT'S FINISHED.
AND THEN SO SOMEONE HAS
TOLD YOU A STORY AND TOLD
YOU WHAT THE END OF THE STORY
IS, AND HOW EVERYONE ENDS UP
AND THEN YOUR LEAVE.

Richard says IT'S FASCINATING TO HEAR YOU
SAY THIS, BECAUSE ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT THE LATER MACIVOR
WORKS HAVE IN COMMON IS THAT
THE RESOLUTION IS THE KICKER.
IT'S THE KICK.

Daniel says RIGHT, ANY BIG THING.

Richard says AND IT LEADS YOU THERE
GOING, “WELL, LOOK.”
YOU KNOW?
THE LAST TWO MINUTES OF THE
PLAY EITHER SOMETIMES LIKE
WITH HOUSE, IT'S
LIKE, “OH, YEAH.”

Daniel says RIGHT.

Richard says OR WITH HENRY, IT'S, “OH,”
AND MONSTER, I MEAN, I LOOKED
OVER MY SHOULDER FOR THE LAST
TEN BLOCKS WALKING OUT OF THE
THEATRE AFTERWARDS.

Daniel says RIGHT, YIKES.
I THINK, YIKES.

Richard says BUT, YEAH, YIKES IT IS.
I MEAN, I THINK THERE WERE
LITTLE PUDDLES UNDER MY CHAIR
AFTER IT.
BUT YOU'VE KIND OF TAKEN WHAT
YOU THOUGHT WAS A WEAKNESS
BEFORE AND HAVE
MADE IT A STRENGTH.

Daniel says WELL, LIKE COMPRESSING IT,
AND ALSO ALLOWING -- WHAT'S
BECOMING MORE AND MORE
CONSCIOUS IN THE WORK, I
THINK, IS ALLOWING WHAT
EVERYTHING THAT'S COME BEFORE
TO MISLEAD YOU IN SOME WAY
OR ANOTHER, SO THAT WHEN YOU
REALIZE HOW IT ALL FITS
TOGETHER, EVERYTHING CONNECTS.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says IN A DIFFERENT KIND OF WAY.

Richard says THERE WAS ALSO A BIT OF...
WELL, I COULD NEVER SAY
ANYTHING YOU DID WOULD
BE TOTALLY SENTIMENTAL,
BUT THERE WAS A BIT OF THAT
SENTIMENTALITY ABOUT SOMEWHERE
I NEVER TRAVELLED.
I REMEMBER READING SOMEWHERE
YOU ALSO SAID THAT IT REALLY
HURT YOU WHEN IT WAS MOCKED
AT THE FRINGE FESTIVAL.

Daniel says YEAH.
YES, WHICH IS HOW I
MET DANIEL BROOKS.

Richard says SO EVERY ILL HAS A
GOOD UNDERNEATH IT.

Daniel says YEAH, YEAH.

Richard says BUT YOU HAVE ALMOST
ASSIDUOUSLY AVOIDED SENTIMENT
EVER SINCE.
HAS THAT BEEN THE REASON?

Daniel says YEAH, I'M WORKING ON A NEW
PLAY NOW CALLED MARION BRIDGE
THAT'S BEING DONE ON TOUR
IN NOVA SCOTIA WITH A SMALL
COMPANY CALLED
MULGRAVE ROAD THEATRE.
AND IT IS A VERY GENTLE
PLAY ABOUT THREE SISTERS.
THEIR MOSCOW IS MORE SORT
OF SPIRITUAL BUT, ANYWAY,
IT'S GOT -- IT'S A REAL BATTLE
FOR ME BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS
A PLACE FOR SENTIMENT,
CERTAINLY, AND ESPECIALLY IN A
STORY, A GENTLE STORY LIKE THE
ONE I'M TRYING TO TELL WITH
THIS NEW PLAY, BUT IT'S --
IT'S SOMETHING THAT --
IT WASN'T JUST THE EXPERIENCE OF
THAT PLAY THAT -- I THINK I
HAD ALWAYS FELT THAT
SENTIMENTALITY OFTEN TENDED TO
UNDERESTIMATE THE AUDIENCE
AND LEAD THE AUDIENCE INTO
FAMILIAR PLACES LIKE
I'VE BEEN SAYING.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says YEAH, I THINK THAT I HAVE
AVOIDED IT, AND I THINK THAT
IN SOME WAY MONSTER
EMBRACES A BIT MORE OF THAT
THAN I HAVE IN THE PAST
BECAUSE I'M STARTING TO --
I MAY, PERHAPS AS I GROW
OLDER, I START TO UNDERSTAND
THAT THERE ARE VALUABLE
THINGS INSIDE THOSE IDEAS
OF SENTIMENT AND
SENTIMENTALITY THAT IT'S NOT
NECESSARILY A NEGATIVE
QUALITATIVE THING TO CALL
SOMETHING SENTIMENTAL.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says BUT I HAVE ALWAYS PLAYED IT
THAT WAY OR THOUGHT OF IT THAT
WAY, AND I THINK THAT THERE'S
ROOM FOR MORE MOVEMENT INSIDE
THAT, BUT YES, I THINK THAT
I DO HAVE A SENSE ABOUT THAT
WHICH I THINK MAKES PEOPLE
THINK THAT I'M REALLY LIKE A
COLDHEARTED GUY.

Richard says BUT YOU DON'T THINK YOU ARE.

Daniel says WELL, IT DEPENDS, YEAH, NO.
I THINK IN A WAY
AND IT'S NOT, YEAH.

Richard says YOUR PLAYS OVER THE LAST
LITTLE WHILE HAVE BEEN CHANGING.
I HATE TO SAY MATURING,
BECAUSE THAT SOUNDS LIKE A
REAL CONDESCENDING THING
TO SAY, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN
GETTING DEEPER, MORE LAYERED,
AND WHEN YOU LOOK BACK NOW,
EVEN AT SOMETHING THAT WAS
WILDLY SUCCESSFUL LIKE HOUSE,
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT
IT WHEN YOU SEE IT?

Daniel says WELL, I REALLY HAVE TO
SAY I AGREE WITH YOU.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT I WAS,
YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, 26 YEARS
OLD, AND NOT TO SAY THAT
YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE
A REAL PERSPECTIVE,
BUT I MEAN YOU KNOW,
I'D NEVER
BEEN TO EUROPE.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW,
LIKE THAT CHANGES YOU.
I MEAN I THINK THAT THE
WORK... IS MATURING.
I MEAN, I THINK IT'S GROWING
WITH ME AND, AS I FEEL,
IT GETS OLDER LIKE I DO.
BUT YOU KNOW -- AND I THINK
THAT THEN I WOULD NEVER HAVE
DONE SOMETHING LIKE MONSTER
BECAUSE OF THE DANGER OF
THE MULTI-CHARACTER,
ONE-MAN SHOW.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says THAT I WOULD HAVE PERHAPS
FELT THAT IT WASN'T DIFFERENT
ENOUGH, OR IT HAD BEEN DONE
BEFORE, BUT NOW, AS I GET MORE
COMFORTABLE IN MYSELF, I
FEEL THAT I, YOU KNOW, TO DO
ANYTHING IS TO DO IT AND
DO IT YOURSELF IS TO DO IT
ORIGINALLY, YOU KNOW?
SO I THINK I'M BECOMING MORE
COMFORTABLE WITH THE THINGS
THAT I HAVE TO SAY AND LESS
CONCERNED ABOUT SAYING THEM IN
A WAY THAT'S GOING TO BE
LOOKED UPON BY OTHER PEOPLE AS
BEING INTERESTING OR UNIQUE
OR, YOU KNOW, IT'S MORE ABOUT
THE IMPORTANCE OF
THE BASIC STATEMENT.

Richard says ANOTHER TUG FROM THE OUTSIDE
WORLD, YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN
FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD ABOUT
BEING A GAY MAN, BUT YET YOUR
WORK HAS NEVER BEEN
OVERTLY GAY AND POLITICAL.

Daniel says MM-HMM.

Richard says DO PEOPLE EVER
PRESSURE YOU AND SAY
WHY AREN'T YOU MORE
OF A GAY PLAYWRIGHT?

Daniel says NO.
NO, I DON'T REALLY FEEL
TOO MUCH PRESSURE
FROM THE COMMUNITY.
I DON'T -- I OFTEN -- THE
COMMUNITY IS NOT -- THE THING
ABOUT WORKING IN THE THEATRE
AND BEING A PART OF THE GAY
COMMUNITY IS THAT YOU REALLY
DON'T EVER FEEL SUPPORTED BY
YOUR COMMUNITY, BECAUSE THEY
DON'T GO TO THE THEATRE.
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T -- BECAUSE
THEY TURN THE LIGHTS OFF,
AND YOU CAN CRUISE, RIGHT?
SO WHY ARE THEY GOING TO GO
TO THE THEATRE WHEN THEY CAN
JUST GO TO A BAR?
YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I'M SURE
THAT THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE
COMMUNITY, BUT THAT'S A BIG
PART OF THE SOCIAL COMMUNITY,
THE COMMUNITY THAT
DOES SORT OF GO OUT.
AND A LOT -- AND ALSO, YOU
KNOW, I THINK THAT TO TALK --
TO TALK ABOUT COMMUNITY IS
TO TALK ABOUT -- IS TO START
MAKING GENERALIZATIONS, WHICH
I WILL, BUT I THINK THAT
THERE'S A CERTAIN LACK IN THE
MAJORITY OF WHAT MAKES UP THE
GAY COMMUNITY OR THE
VOCAL GAY COMMUNITY.
THERE IS A LACK OF -- THERE'S
A REAL LOVE OF CONVENTION.
I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF A
FEELING OF BEING OSTRACIZED
SO MUCH AND OUTSIDE,
THAT ITS TRADITION IS
REALLY EMBRACED, SO THAT
THERE'S NOT A HUGE GAY
AUDIENCE FOR EXPERIMENTAL
WORK, OR NEW WORK,
OR THAT SORT OF THING.
SO, THEY ARE NOT -- SO THE
MEMBERS OF MY COMMUNITY HAVE
NEVER REALLY BEEN MY AUDIENCE,
SO THEY NEVER REALLY PUT MUCH
PRESSURE ON ME TO DO ANYTHING.
AND I DO FEEL THAT -- I MEAN,
IN HIGH SCHOOL, I WAS ALWAYS
THE ONE CAUGHT BETWEEN SORT
OF THE HOCKEY PLAYERS AND THE
CHEERLEADERS, SOMEWHERE IN THE
MIDDLE, AND I FEEL THAT SAME
POSITION IN -- YOU KNOW, I'M
CAUGHT BETWEEN THE GYM GUYS
AND THE DRAG QUEENS.
LIKE THERE IS A GROUP -- THERE
IS A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO JUST
SORT OF FALL INTO THIS
CATEGORY THAT DOESN'T
FIT THE SCENE.
SO I'VE NEVER REALLY FELT A
REALLY STRONG PART OF THE
COMMUNITY, AND I MUST SAY THAT
YOU KNOW IN THE LAST FEW YEARS
THIS WHOLE MOVEMENT TOWARD
EQUALITY AND THAT SORT OF
THING HAS ALWAYS -- SORT OF
DOESN'T SIT VERY WELL WITH ME
BECAUSE, EQUAL
TO WHAT, I SAY.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHITE MALES OR
STRAIGHT WHITE MALES OR WHAT,
IS THE IDEA OF
BEING EQUAL TO WHAT?
AND ALSO, I ALWAYS FELT THAT
ONE OF THE PERKS OF BEING GAY
WAS THAT YOU WERE IMMEDIATELY
GIVEN A BADGE OF UNDERGROUND
OR OUTSIDE.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says AND I ALWAYS FELT VERY
COMFORTABLE IN THAT PLACE.
SO I'M NOT REALLY THAT EAGER
TO BE SWEPT UP INTO THE
MAINSTREAM IN THAT WAY,
CULTURALLY, SOCIALLY.
SO, I ALMOST FEEL LIKE I HAVE
TO BACK OFF FROM THE GAY THING
IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN
SORT OF AN OUTSIDER STANCE.

Richard says PLEASE DON'T PUT ME
INTO ANY OF THE CLUBS.

Daniel says WELL, YEAH, BECAUSE IT
DOESN'T... AND I'VE TRIED.
AND I HAVE TRIED BUT IT'S...
AND ALSO, SORT OF TO
ADDRESS THE QUESTION SORT OF
MORE FROM WHERE WE'RE TALKING,
I MEAN, AS SOON AS YOU START
WRITING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE
OF -- IF I STARTED
WRITING GAY PLAYS OR
PERSPECTIVE OF A GAY MAN,
THEN I THINK I'M IMMEDIATELY
ELIMINATING A LOT OF THOUGHT.
I'M ELIMINATING THE FACT
THAT JUST BECAUSE, IF I
REPRESENT A COUPLE ON
STAGE AND THEY HAPPEN TO
BOTH BE MALE, THEN
THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY --
IT DOESN'T MEAN
THAT IT'S ABOUT MEN.

Richard says RIGHT.

Daniel says IT'S ABOUT RELATIONSHIP.
AND THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN, I
THINK, REALLY IMPORTANT FOR
ME, IS THAT AS HUMANS WE
LIVE IN A WORLD TOGETHER,
REGARDLESS OF WHO WE SLEEP
WITH, OR WHERE WE COME FROM,
OR WHAT LANGUAGE WE SPEAK.
I REALLY -- I MEAN -- I THINK
SO HOPEFULLY WHERE AT THE END
OF MY LIFE I'LL LOOK BACK AND
BE ABLE TO SAY THAT I'VE STUCK
TO THAT THINKING, BECAUSE I
FEEL THAT THAT'S WHAT -- I
THINK WE WOULD BE A MUCH
BETTER PLACE IF WE ALL THOUGHT
THAT WAY, AND I FIND A LOT A
LOT OF THE RADICAL WORK -- A
LOT OF THE RADICAL THINKING
VERY DIVISIVE, YOU KNOW, AND I
THINK THAT'S NOT WHAT WE
WANT, WHERE WE WANT TO BE.

Richard says I'M CURIOUS ABOUT WHERE
YOU ARE GOING TO GO NEXT.
YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE PLAY IN
MULGRAVE, BUT WHAT I REALLY
HOPE WILL HAPPEN IS THAT
MONSTER, WHICH HAD A VERY
SHORT RUN IN TORONTO, WILL BE
BACK, AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR
RELUCTANCE TO DO IT FOREVER,
BUT IT WAS A WONDERFUL
EXPERIENCE, AND I LOOK FORWARD
TO SHARING MORE DANIEL MACIVOR
AND SEEING WHERE YOU
GO ON THE JOURNEY,
AND THANK YOU FOR WHAT
YOU'VE DONE SO FAR.

Daniel says THANK YOU VERY
MUCH, RICHARD.

Richard says THANK YOU.

He the screen and says
FOR DIALOGUE, I'M
RICHARD OUZOUNIAN.
GOODBYE FOR NOW.

Music plays as the end slate reads “Special thanks to Centro Grill and Wine Bar.”

Dialogue. A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1998, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Daniel MacIvor