Transcript: Show #177 "Municipal Restructuring" | Dec 05, 1999

(music plays)

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows two male politicians talking at the Legislature.

Steve says THIS WEEK ON
4TH READING, CAUCUS REVOLT.
A TORY MPP ISSUES
AN ULTIMATUM,
EITHER SUPER CITIES
GO OR HE DOES.

Steve, Ruth, Richard sit next to two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark jacket and a bright blue polo-shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND WELCOME
TO THIS WEEK'S EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
IT HAD ALL THE MAKINGS OF
A GREAT POLITICAL DRAMA
THIS WEEK AT
QUEEN'S PARK.
POLITICIANS IN FIVE
SEPARATE CITIES HOWLING
OVER THE GOVERNMENT'S
PLANS TO LEGISLATE AWAY
WHAT SOME CALL THEIR
DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVES.
A TORY MPP ACCUSING HIS OWN
GOVERNMENT OF BETRAYAL
AND THREATENING TO RESIGN,
AND A MEGACITY MAYOR
CHARGING THE HARRIS
CONSERVATIVES ARE SIMPLY BENT
ON REVENGE AGAINST
TORONTO.
IS THERE ANYTHING
MORE CONTROVERSIAL
FOR THIS GOVERNMENT THAN
MEGACITY MADNESS?
IN A MOMENT, WE'LL ASK
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MINISTER
TONY CLEMENT ABOUT THAT.

Tony Clement is in his mid-forties, clean-shaven with dark hair. He’s wearing glasses, a blue suit, matching tie and spotted tie.

Steve continues FIRST A LOOK AT HOW
THE DRAMA PLAYED OUT.

A clip plays. It shows city traffic and pedestrians.

Steve says IT'S A
TALE OF SUPER CITIES.
AS THE GOVERNMENT PUSHES
ITS MANTRA OF SAVING
TAXPAYERS' MONEY, IT WANTS
TO TURN HAMILTON, SUDBURY,
AND OTTAWA INTO MEGACITIES.
IT ALSO WANTS TO SPLIT
HALDIMAND-NORFOLK COUNTY
INTO TWO CITIES.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Tony Clement. Municipal Affairs Minister."

Tony speaks to the press and says THE ACTUAL DEBATE AND
DISCUSSION HAS GONE ON
FOR YEARS IN EACH OF
THESE MUNICIPALITIES,
SO WE'VE HAD LOTS OF
REPORTS AND LOTS
OF SUGGESTIONS AND
LOTS OF MEETINGS,
AND SO EVERYBODY KNOWS
WHAT THE ISSUES ARE AND
EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT THE
POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS ARE,
AND IT'S OUR PLACE NOW
AS A GOVERNMENT TO,
AT THE REQUEST OF THOSE
MUNICIPALITIES, INCIDENTALLY,
TO PUT SOME FINALITY
ON THE DISCUSSION.

Steve says THE MOVE IS
CAUSING DISSENSION
IN THE TORY RANKS.
MPP TONI SKARICA IS
THREATENING TO RESIGN
IF THE GOVERNMENT GOES AHEAD
WITH ITS PLANS TO IMPOSE
A SUPER CITY FOR HAMILTON.
HE SAYS SENIOR PARTY
SPOKESMAN PAUL RHODES
PROMISED IN LAST SPRING'S
ELECTION THE TORIES
WOULD NEVER DO THAT.

Toni Ranks speaks with journalists. He’s in his late forties, with a moustache and blond hair. He’s wearing a dark suit, light gray shirt and patterned silk tie.

Toni says I'VE INDICATED ALL ALONG
THAT I'LL GO THROUGH
THE PROCESS, TALK TO CAUCUS,
AND WAIT FOR THE CABINET
DECISION, AND THEN MAKE
A DECISION AT THAT TIME.
I MADE A COMMENT AFTER
Mr. RHODES CAME OUT WITH
HIS COMMENT ON MAY 26,
TWO DAYS LATER I WENT
TO AN ALL-CANDIDATES'
MEETING.
I SAID, AS LONG
AS I'M THE MPP,
THERE WON'T BE A
SUPERCITY IN MY AREA.
I INTEND TO
STICK BY THAT.

Steve says MPP BRAD CLARK
IS ONE OF A HANDFUL
OF OTHERS WHO CAMPAIGNED
AGAINST THE MEGACITY
FOR HAMILTON.

Brad Clark is in his forties, with a beard and dark curly hair. He wears round glasses a gray jacket, black tie and matching shirt.

Brad says I WILL VOTE AGAINST IT.
I HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE
BUT TO DO IT.
I MEAN, ULTIMATELY WHAT WE
HAVE IS LESS GOVERNMENT
FOR MORE MONEY FOR MY
CONSTITUENTS AND THAT'S
NOT APPROPRIATE AND I
CAN'T ACCEPT IT.

Steve says BUT THERE ARE
SOME HAMILTON MPPs
WHO FEEL THAT THIS AMALGAMATION
COULD BE BENEFICIAL
FOR STEEL TOWN.

The caption changes to "Dave Christopherson, MPP." Dave is in his fifties, clean-shaven with brown hair parted in the middle. He’s wearing glasses, a gray suit, white shirt and golden tie.

Dave says IF HAMILTON REPRESENTING
A TOTAL OF 500,000 PEOPLE
REGION WIDE DOESN'T
HAVE A SINGLE VOICE
IN GETTING OUR INTERESTS ON
THE AGENDA AS QUEEN'S PARK,
TORONTO, AND THE GTA
DEAL WITH THEIR AGENDA,
WE STAND A REAL CHANCE
OF GETTING RUN OVER.

Steve says OTTAWA CABINET MINISTER
JOHN BAIRD WAS OPPOSED
TO AMALGAMATION FOR
HIS CITY IN THE PAST.
NOW, HE WON'T SAY
WHERE HE STANDS.

John Baird answers journalists’ questions and leaves. He’s is in his late thirties, clean-shaven with brown hair. He wears a dark blue suit.

A Female Reporter says DO YOU SUPPORT IT?

Steve says THE LEADER OF THE
OPPOSITION IS IN FAVOUR
OF AMALGAMATION FOR HIS
HOME TOWN OF OTTAWA,
BUT THE LIBERALS' DALTON
MCGUINTY IS WARY
ABOUT LUMPING ALL THE
ISSUES INTO ONE BILL.

Dalton McGuinty is in his early forties, with short brown hair and clean-shaven. He wears a blue suit, white shirt and checked yellow tie.

Talking to the press, Dalton says THAT IS COMPLETELY
INAPPROPRIATE AND IT'S WRONG
TO COMPEL ANYBODY TO
DEBATE THE DESTINY
OF FIVE SEPARATE COMMUNITIES
UNDER ONE BILL.

An aerial view of Toronto appears, followed by a political meeting.

Steve says AND THE
PC'S AREN'T DONE
WITH THE ORIGINAL
MEGACITY.
THEY PLAN TO CUT SOME SEATS
FROM TORONTO CITY COUNCIL,
FURTHER BLURRING THE
LINE BETWEEN LOCAL
AND PROVINCIAL POLITICS.

The caption changes to "Mel Lastman. Mayor of Toronto." Mel is in his sixties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a black suit, white shirt and striped purple tie.

Mel says I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S IN
THE BACK OF THEIR
MINDS ANYMORE.
I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT -
AND WHETHER THEY'RE -
AS FAR AS I CAN SEE,
THEY'RE BEING VINDICTIVE.

The caption changes to "Chris Stockwell. Minister of Labour." Chris is in his mid-forties with receding hair and clean-shaven. He wears a dark suit, blue shirt and patterned tie.

In an interview, Chris says THAT'S JUST A MANIFESTATION
IN MY FRIEND MEL'S MIND.
WE HAVE NO INTEREST
IN REVENGE.
REVENGE FOR WHAT?

Steve says THIS EXPERT
ON MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT
SAYS THE CONSERVATIVES
ARE TAKING THE FACT THAT
MUNICIPALITIES ARE JUST
CREATURES OF THE PROVINCE
ABSOLUTELY LITERALLY.

The caption changes to "Edmund Fowler. York University." Edmund is in his mid-fifties, with a moustache and gray hair. He wears glasses, a patterned gray and yellow shirt under a blue vest.

Edmund sits in a living room.

He MY THOUGHTS ON THE TREND
TOWARDS AMALGAMATION,
I GUESS, IS THAT IT'S
REALLY A CONVENIENCE
FOR A PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
THAT SEES MUNICIPALITIES
AS AN ADMINISTRATIVE
ARM OF THE PROVINCE,
NOT AS A POLITICAL
ENTITY OF ANY KIND.

Steve says THE BILL WAS
SUPPOSED TO BE INTRODUCED
THIS WEEK, BUT THE CAUCUS
REVOLT HAS SCUTTLED THAT.

Mike Harris is in his mid-sixties, with combed gray hair and clean-shaven. He wears a blue suit.

Mike says HAVING A VIGOROUS
DEBATE IN CAUCUS.
THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS
MATTER FOR A NUMBER
OF OUR MEMBERS, BUT I THINK
ALL AGREED WHEN WE EMBARKED
ON THE PROCESS THAT THE STATUS
QUO WAS NOT SUSTAINABLE.
WE NEEDED TO FIND WAYS
TO STREAMLINE MUNICIPAL
GOVERNMENT AND WE
INTEND TO DO SO.
AND AT THIS POINT IN TIME
WE'RE RECEIVING INPUT.

The clip ends.

At the studio, Steve says AND WITH US TODAY, THE MAN
PREMIER HARRIS HAS PUT
IN CHARGE OF FIXING ALL OF
THIS, HE IS TONY CLEMENT,
MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS AND MPP
FOR BRAMPTON
WEST-MISSISSAUGA.
TONY, WELCOME BACK
TO TVO.
IT'S GOOD TO HAVE
YOU HERE.

Tony says NICE TO BE BACK.

Steve says AND OUR QUEEN'S PARK
WATCHERS FOR THIS WEEK.
HERE'S RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She’s wearing a blue turtleneck sweater under a striped light jacket.

Steve continues AND FROM THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM FRASER MILNER,
THERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY,
A PAST PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS.

Richard Mahoney is in his forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a dark suit, blue shirt and matching patterned tie.

Steve continues AND
PROFESSOR MICHAEL BLISS,
AUTHOR, HISTORIAN, AND
INDEPENDENT CONSERVATIVE
FROM THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO.

Michael Bliss is in his mid-sixties, clean-shaven with white hair. He wears glasses, a dark blue suit, striped blue shirt and checked tie.

Steve continues MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING
ARE TWO OF THE WORST
WORDS IN THE WORLD.
PEOPLE'S EYES GLAZE OVER,
BUT WHEN YOU SAY WE'RE ABOUT
TO TAKE YOUR SMALL
TOWN AND WE'RE GOING
TO TURN IT INTO A SUPERCITY,
SUDDENLY EVERYBODY
GETS PAYING ATTENTION.
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR
THIS GOVERNMENT TO TAKE
WHAT HAVE BEEN, I THINK,
800 PLUS MUNICIPALITIES
AROUND ONTARIO
FIVE YEARS AGO,
CUT THAT NUMBER IN HALF
AND GO EVEN FURTHER?
WHAT'S THE BIG HURRY?
WHY DO IT?

Tony says NUMBER OF REASONS.
FIRST OF ALL, WE FOUND
TO DATE THAT WHEN YOU
DO RESTRUCTURE THESE
MUNICIPALITIES,
THERE ARE IMMENSE
TAX SAVINGS.
WE'VE COUNTED UP TO 200
MILLION DOLLARS THUS FAR IN
THE RESTRUCTURED MUNICIPALS
IN TERMS OF TAX SAVINGS.
SO THERE'S A TAX SAVING,
GIVING THE TAXPAYER A BREAK.
THERE'S I THINK AN
OPPORTUNITY TO DELIVER
SERVICES BETTER
FOR LESS:
LESS WASTE, LESS
DUPLICATION,
LESS OVERLAP.
AND I THINK THIRDLY, AS YOU
GET RID OF THAT DUPLICATION
BECAUSE YOU HAVE A
SINGLE TIER, LET'S SAY,
WHERE YOU HAD
TWO TIERS BEFORE,
THERE'S MORE
ACCOUNTABILITY.
PEOPLE KNOW WHO THEIR
REPRESENTATIVE IS AND
THEY HOLD THAT
REPRESENTATIVE ACCOUNTABLE,
WHICH MAKES FOR, I
THINK, A BETTER
MUNICIPAL GOVERNMENT.
SO ALL OF THOSE
REASONS ARE IN PLAY.

Steve says IS LESS REPRESENTATION
BETTER DEMOCRACY?

Tony says WELL, I WOULDN'T
CHARACTERIZE IT
WITH THAT QUESTION.
I THINK, IS THERE A WAY
TO BALANCE THE NEED
FOR REPRESENTATION WITH AN
EFFICIENT WAY TO DELIVER
SERVICES TO THE TAXPAYER,
AND IS THE FORMER BALANCE
IN A MUNICIPALITY THE
BEST WAY TO DO SO?
AS THE MUNICIPALITIES
GROW, OF COURSE
THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE.
NOT EVERYBODY
LIKES CHANGE.
WE KNOW THAT.
BUT IN THE END, IS IT
BETTER TO ALLOW THOSE
MUNICIPALITIES TO GROW
AND TO BE A MORE MODERN
FORMAT SO THEY CAN DELIVER
BETTER SERVICES.
BECAUSE IF THEY'RE IN THE
OLD FORMAT THAT DOES NOT
DELIVER BETTER SERVICES,
YOU'RE SHORTCHANGING
THE TAXPAYER AND YOU'RE NOT
TREATING THE PROSPERITY
THAT THOSE MUNICIPALITIES
NEED TO SUCCEED.

Steve says I KNOW THERE IS A CLARION
CALL TO GET RID
OF POLITICIANS THESE DAYS
AND YOU FOLKS VERY
ACCURATELY GAUGED THAT
IN PUBLIC'S MOOD,
TOOK ADVANTAGE OF IT
AT THE LAST ELECTION,
AND REDUCED THE
NUMBER OF MPP'S IN
THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE.
NOW OF COURSE WHAT I'M
HEARING FROM MPPs IS,
THEY GOT TOO MUCH WORK TO
DO BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT
SO MANY MORE CONSTITUENTS
THAN BEFORE.
AND THEIR BUDGETS AREN'T
NECESSARILY BIGGER
OR THEIR STAFFS BIGGER
TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

Tony smiles.

Ruth says BUDGETS AND THE
STAFF ARE BIGGER.

Steve says YEAH, ONLY RECENTLY.
IS THIS GOING TO BE THE
CASE AT THE MUNICIPAL LEVEL
WHERE SURE YOU'RE GOING
TO KNOCK OFF A BUNCH
OF POLITICIANS AND EVERYBODY'S
GOING TO FEEL GREAT,
AND THEN SUDDENLY WHEN YOU
WANT TO CALL SOMEBODY
AND GET SOMEBODY ON THE
PHONE, HE OR SHE'S GOT TWICE
AS MANY CONSTITUENTS TO
DEAL WITH AS BEFORE
AND CAN'T GET TO YOU?

Tony says WELL, YOU KNOW, OUR
EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN
THAT IN FACT HAVING
FEWER POLITICIANS
IN THE LEGISLATURE, I
DON'T THINK IT'S MADE
A SUBSTANTIVE DIFFERENCE
FOR MOST PEOPLE.
I HAVE THE LARGEST RIDING
BY POPULATION IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO.

Steve says HOW MANY,
ABOUT 120,000?

Tony says I'D SAY IT'S
CLOSER TO 160,000.
SO I THINK I CAN SPEAK WITH
A LITTLE BIT OF EXPERIENCE
THAT I CAN BE AN EXCELLENT
MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATURE
WITH THAT SIZE OF A RIDING
AND I'VE GOT THE LARGEST
RIDING BY POPULATION.
I THINK THE KEY IS, WE WANT
POLITICIANS TO DO BETTER
WITH LESS BECAUSE WE AS
POLITICIANS ARE ASKING
OTHER FOLKS TO DO THE SAME
THING AND WE HAVE TO LEAD
BY EXAMPLE, NOT ONLY AT
THE PROVINCIAL SPHERE,
BUT ALSO IN THE MUNICIPAL
SPHERE AS WELL,
AND THAT'S THE DEMAND
OF THE TAXPAYER
AND WE HAVE TO
MEET THAT CALL.

Steve says LET ME BRING THE MEMBER
FROM THE FORMER MEGACITY
OF ETOBICOKE IN HERE.
ETOBICOKE, AN AMALGAM
OF SO MANY OTHER SMALL
COMMUNITIES IN THE PAST.

Ruth says AND A FORMER
MUNICIPALLY COUNCILLOR.

Steve says THERE YOU GO.
RUTH, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
AFTER THIS FOR AGES,
TO GET THESE
MUNICIPALITIES CUT DOWN
INTO MORE MANAGEABLE
ENTITIES.
ARE THEY RESPONDING
TO THE PUBLIC'S WILL?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WELL, WHO'S BEEN
AFTER THIS FOR AGES?
I DON'T FIND ANYBODY AT THE
COMMUNITY LEVEL OR ACTIVE
AT THE COMMUNITY LEVEL
SAYING WE NEED TO HAVE
A MEGACITY, THAT BATTLE
WAS FOUGHT LAST YEAR.

Steve says TONY SAID HE'S RESPONDING
TO THE DEMANDS
OF MUNICIPAL POLITICIANS
THEMSELVES.

Ruth says I DON'T THINK THAT'S
ENTIRELY ACCURATE.
I THINK THIS IS VERY MUCH A
PROVINCE-LED INITIATIVE
IN MOST CASES.
SURE THERE HAVE BEEN
DEBATES AROUND ONE TIER
OR TWO TIER, HAMILTON
AND SUDBURY.
I THINK IN
TORONTO THE SIZE,
THE SCALE IS SUCH THAT -
WELL, WE HAD THAT ARGUMENT.
BUT I THINK THE COMMENTATOR
ON YOUR SETUP PIECE
WHO SAID THAT THE PROVINCE
VIEWS MUNICIPALITIES
AS MERELY AN ADMINISTRATIVE
ARM HAD IT RIGHT,
BECAUSE IN ALL OF
THIS RESTRUCTURING,
THERE'S REALLY NO
CONSIDERATION TO THE FACT
THAT MUNICIPAL COUNCILLORS
ARE CLOSER TO PEOPLE.
WHEN SOMETHING IS
HAPPENING MUNICIPALLY,
MOST COUNCILLORS I'VE EVER
KNOWN WANT TO GO OUT AND
HAVE A LOT AT THE ISSUE AT
THE SITE, AT THE HOUSE,
OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND I
KNOW THAT IN TORONTO
THE WORKLOAD HAS JUST
BEEN PHENOMENAL,
EVEN FOR THE 57, AND NOW
THAT'S GOING DOWN TO 44,
AND PEOPLE CAN'T
GET THE ACCESS.

Steve says I WANT TO CALL
ON THE POLITICAL
SCIENTIST/HISTORIAN IN OUR
MIDST TO TELL US ABOUT THIS.
I THOUGHT CONSERVATISM
STOOD FOR GETTING CLOSER
TO THE PEOPLE, AND YET
THIS PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
SEEMS TO BE ACTING
CONTRARY TO THAT.

The caption changes to "Michael Bliss. Author/Historian."

Michael says CLOSER TO THE PEOPLE IS ONE
OF THESE CATCH PHRASES
THAT IS ALMOST
MEANINGLESS.
I USED TO LIVE IN EAST YORK
WHERE THEY ALL SAID
THEY WERE CLOSER TO THE
PEOPLE, BUT THEY WERE CLOSER
TO THE PEOPLE AND THEY
WERE INCOMPETENT.
WE HAVEN'T
MISSED THEM AT ALL.
THE OVERWHELMING FACT
ABOUT THIS NEXT STAGE
IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT
HAS ALREADY GIVEN US
THE EXAMPLE WITH TORONTO.
THEY DID IT.
THE VESTED INTEREST
KICKED AND SCREAMED.
IT WENT THROUGH.
IT WASN'T AN
ELECTION ISSUE.
NOBODY WANTS TO GO BACK
AND WE'RE JUST HAVING
THE OTHER SHOE FALL.
AND NOBODY MISSES - NOBODY
MISSES EAST YORK OR THESE
LITTLE MUNICIPALITIES AND
ONE OF THE REASONS
IS THAT THE POLITICIANS
WERE NOT PLAYING CRICKET.
THEY WERE IN FACT FEEDING
AT THE TROUGH OF OFFICES
AND SALARIES AND WE THE
PEOPLE WANT TO REDUCE
THE NUMBERS OF POLITICIANS
BECAUSE THEY HAD
SO SWELLED THEIR
INVOLVEMENT.

Laughing, Steve says THAT'S A RATHER UNFORTUNATE
CHARACTERIZATION
OF WHAT MUNICIPAL
POLITICIANS DO.
I'M NOT GOING TO STAND HERE
AND DEFEND THEM BUT -

Ruth says HE'S TALKING
ABOUT EAST YORK.

[laughing]

Richard says I NEVER
LIVED IN EAST YORK.

Michael says NO, WE'RE GOING TO TALK
ABOUT REDUCING THE NUMBER
OF COUNCILLORS OF THE
MEGACITY OF TORONTO TOO.

Steve says THAT'S TRUE.

Michael says YOU KNOW, YOU SAY
POLITICIANS ARE CLOSE
TO THE PEOPLE BUT TODAY'S
PEOPLE WOULD LIKE
FEWER POLITICIANS.

Ruth says UNLESS
THEY NEED ONE.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says FEWER POLITICIANS
ISN'T ONE OF THESE THINGS,
SPEAKING OF THINGS THAT ARE
DRAGGED OUT AND THROWN IN
FRONT OF US, AS ONE OF
THE JUSTIFICATIONS
FOR THESE THINGS.
IF MIKE HARRIS TRULY
WANTED FEWER POLITICIANS,
HE WOULDN'T HAVE INCREASED
THE SIZE OF HIS CABINET,
AS HE JUST DID, OR GIVEN
PAY RAISES TO HIS POLITICAL
STAFF OF ABOUT 30 PERCENT.
THAT BEING SAID, I HATE -
IT'S NEVER FUN BEING
IN A POSITION OF ACTUALLY
AGREEING WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
AS FAR AS THE COMMUNITY I
LIVE IN, OTTAWA-CARLETON,
WHAT THE MINISTER IS DOING,
FOLLOWING ON THE REPORT
THAT HIS GOVERNMENT
COMMISSIONED THERE MAKES SENSE.
OTTAWA-CARLETON WOULD BE
WELL SERVED FOR THE SIZE
OF THE CITY, ABOUT
750,000 PEOPLE,
WILL BE WELL SERVED BY
ONE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT.
IN FACT, WHEN THE MEGACITY
DEBATE WAS HAPPENING HERE
IN TORONTO, REMEMBER THAT
EXPERT THAT I THINK WE HAD
ON THE PROGRAM WHO HAD
LOOKED AT THESE THINGS
ALL OVER NORTH AMERICA
AND SAID, 6- 700,000 -
700,000 IS ABOUT
THE RIGHT NUMBER.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THEY'RE SAYING
THAT IN KANATA OR IN NEPEAN?

Richard says NOT AS MUCH.
A LOT OF PEOPLE
ARE, YEAH.
THERE IS A CONSENSUS
IN OTTAWA-CARLETON -

Steve says I DON'T THINK
JOHN BAIRD'S SAYING IT.

Richard says JOHN BAIRD'S NOT.

Steve says JOHN BAIRD'S A CABINET
MINISTER WHO'S RUNNING AWAY
FROM REPORTERS WHO ARE
ASKING HIM, SO JOHN,
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
YOU USED TO SAY
YOU WERE OPPOSED
TO A SUPERCITY FOR
OTTAWA, AND NOW?

Richard says HE WANTED
THREE CITIES, JOHN BAIRD.

Tony says YEAH, HE WANTED THE
TRI-CITY AND THAT WAS
INVESTIGATED BY THE SPECIAL
ADVISER AND IT DID NOT
PRODUCE THE SAME KIND OF
TAX SAVINGS OR THE SAME
KIND OF EFFICIENCIES THAT
THE SINGLE TIER OFFERS.
I WANT TO SAY, JUST
FOR THE RECORD,
JOHN BAIRD IS ADVOCATING
LIKE NOBODY ELSE
FOR HIS CONSTITUENTS.

Steve says HE'S FROM NEPEAN,
WE SHOULD SAY.

Tony continues HE'S FROM NEPEAN AND
NEPEAN IS PART OF
THE OTTAWA-CARLETON MIX.
THEY COULD BE PART OF THE
CITY OF OTTAWA IF WE ACCEPT
THAT RECOMMENDATION, AND WE
ARE WORKING VERY HARD
ON MAKING SURE THAT THE
TAX SAVINGS ARE FOUND,
MAKING SURE THAT FOLKS IN
SOME OF THE MORE SUBURBAN
OR RURAL COMMUNITIES
ARE LOOKED AFTER.
NOT AT THE EXPENSE
OF THE TAX SAVINGS,
BUT IN A WAY THAT LOOKS
AFTER THEIR INTEREST.

Steve says CAN YOU GIVE US A HINT?
WHAT'S GOING ON
BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
WE SAW IN THE BACKGROUND
PIECE A SHOT OF YOU AND
I THINK IT WAS BRAD CLARK
FROM STONEY CREEK HUDDLED
BEHIND THE PARTITION.

Richard says TONY WAS
WORKING HIM OVER.
[laughing]

Steve says I THINK BRAD WAS
WORKING TONY OVER.
LIKE WHAT IS
BAIRD DOING?
COMES UP TO YOU PRESUMABLY
AND HE SAYS, LOOK IT,
I'M GOING TO GET ROASTED
IN MY RIDING IF YOU PUT
THIS THROUGH AS
A SUPERCITY.
WHAT KIND OF ENTREATIES
DOES HE MAKE UPON YOU?

Tony says WELL, HE'S DOING HIS JOB,
JUST LIKE BRAD AND TONY
AND THE REST OF THE
FOLKS ARE DOING.
THEY'RE SAYING, HEY, GIVE
ME SOME THINGS THAT I NEED
TO MAKE THIS WORK, AND
HERE'S THE LIST AND WE WORK
THROUGH THE LIST, AND WE
MAKE ACCOMMODATIONS
WHERE WE CAN AS LONG AS
IT DOESN'T VIOLATE
THE PRINCIPLES THAT
WE'RE AFTER,
WHICH IS A BREAK
FOR THE TAXPAYERS.
MORE CLARITY.
MORE EFFICIENCY IN
TERMS OF SERVICES.

Ruth says SO WHAT SORT OF
THINGS CAN YOU DEAL?

Tony says WELL, I MEAN, IF THERE ARE
BETTER WAYS TO PROTECT
THE TAXPAYER THAN THE SPECIAL
ADVISERS HAVE RECOMMENDED,
WE'RE LOOKING AT
THOSE SOLUTIONS.
SO IT'S A VERY FLUID
SITUATION RIGHT NOW
BECAUSE THE BILL HAS STILL
NOT BEEN INTRODUCED,
BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT
WE ARE LISTENING
TO SOME OF THE REACTION.
WE'RE TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE
THAT AS BEST WE CAN WHILE
STILL STICKING TO
OUR PRINCIPLES
FOR THE TAXPAYERS'
BENEFIT.

Richard says MAYBE I CAN ADD A BIT OF
COLOUR TO THAT CONVERSATION
THAT TONY'S ON HAVING WITH
SOME OF HIS COLLEAGUES.
IN OTTAWA-CARLETON,
FOR EXAMPLE,
BOTH JOHN BAIRD AND
NORM STERLING, TOO,
THE TWO OTTAWA-CARLETON
MINISTERS,
AND BRIAN COLBORNE, A FORMER
MUNICIPAL POLITICIAN,
NOW THE MEMBER FOR
CARLETON-GLOUCESTER,
HAVE BEEN AGAINST
THE ONE CITY MODEL,
IN FAVOUR OF A
THREE-CITY MORE GOVERNMENT
MODEL BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
REAL TORIES, I GUESS.
THEY'RE IN FAVOUR
OF MORE GOVERNMENT.
[laughing]
BUT IN ANY EVENT, WHAT
THEY'VE BEEN SAYING TO TONY
CLEMENT IS, THEY'VE BEEN
BEGGING HIM TO MAKE THIS
INTO ONE BIG BILL SO THAT
THEY DON'T HAVE TO STAND UP
AND VOTE FOR
OTTAWA-CARLETON'S ONE CITY.
THEY CAN HIDE BEHIND
THE FACT, AS WELL,
IT'S REALLY FOR HAMILTON
AND SUDBURY AND HALDIMAND
AND NORFOLK AND TORONTO AND
I GUESS OTTAWA-CARLETON
IS A SMALL PART OF IT,
AND I'M JUST HIDING -

Tony says NOT AT ALL.

Steve says THAT'S NOT TRUE?

Tony says NO, WE'RE TALKING
PUBLIC POLICY.

Richard says THEY'RE BEGGING
YOU FOR THE OPPOSITE.
GIVE ME ONE BILL THAT JUST
SAYS OTTAWA-CARLETON
SO I CAN VOTE AGAINST IT.

[laughing]

Ruth says THEN I CAN STAND
UP AND BE COUNTED.

Tony says HASN'T EVEN COME
UP, RICHARD.

Steve says THERE MUST BE A RECOGNITION
TONI SKARICA IN THE LAST
ELECTION WAS VERY CLEAR
IN STANDING UP BEFORE HIS
CONSTITUENTS AND SAYING,
I PROMISE YOU THERE'S
NOT GOING TO BE SINGLE
CITY OF HAMILTON
FOR HIS SUBURBAN
CONSTITUENTS.
AND I GUESS THE
FIRST QUESTION IS,
WAS THAT A REAL STUPID
PROMISE TO MAKE?

Ruth says YES.

Steve says HE COULDN'T
PROMISE THAT.
HE WASN'T GOING TO BE THE
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MINISTER.
HE COULDN'T PROMISE THAT.

Richard says NO, TONY WAS.

Tony smiles.

Steve says THREE MONTHS AGO
TONY DIDN'T THINK HE -
THAT'S RIGHT,
I HAD NO IDEA.

Tony says BUT, NO, I THINK THAT HE IS
TRYING TO PROTECT WHAT
HE PERCEIVES TO BE THE
INTERESTS OF HIS AREA
AND THAT IS WHAT HE
IS ELECTED TO DO.
WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS
FIND SOME WAYS TO PROTECT
THOSE INTERESTS WITHIN
THE FABRIC OF WHAT WE'VE
GOT TO AS A
GOVERNMENT TO MAKE -
ARE YOU PREPARED TO
SEE HIM QUIT OF IT?
HE SAYS HE'LL QUIT.
WELL, I'M NOT - I
DON'T WANT TO PREDICT
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN
IN THE FUTURE,
SO I'M NOT GOING TO SAY
WHO'S GOING TO QUIT
OR WHO'S NOT
GOING TO QUIT.
HE HAS TAKEN A STRONG
STAND FOR HIS - FOR HOW
HE PERCEIVES TO BE IN THE
INTERESTS OF HIS ELECTORS
AND I RESPECT THAT.
WE HAVE TO TAKE A POSITION
THAT IS IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST
OF THE PROVINCE OF
ONTARIO.
THAT'S WHY WE
WERE ELECTED.
SO THERE'S GOING TO BE A
LOT OF GIVE AND TAKE AND
A LOT OF BACK AND FORTH AND
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING
THROUGH NOW, AND
I'VE SAID IT BEFORE,
IT'S LIKE A FAMILY.
SOMETIMES FAMILIES
HAVE GOOD DAYS;
SOMETIMES THEY
HAVE BAD DAYS.

Steve says PAUL RHODES DID
PROMISE THIS STUFF.

Tony continues AND FROM MY PERSPECTIVE,
THIS IS ALL PART OF
THE PROCESS OF ACCOMMODATING
WHAT WE CAN ACCOMMODATE
WHILE STICKING TO
OUR PRINCIPLES.

Steve says MICHAEL BLISS.

Michael says OF COURSE IT WAS
STUPID PROMISE.

[laughing]
Steve says OK, THANK YOU.

Michael says OF COURSE IT WAS.

Steve says THE PLAIN SPOKEN
PROFESSOR COMES THROUGH.

Michael says WHO IS THIS MAN PREMIER
RHODES, YOU KNOW?

Richard says MICHAEL, HOLD ON A SEC.
HE WAS PUT OUT THERE BY THE
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY TO ANSWER
THAT QUESTION,
AND LET'S BE FRANK
FOR A SECOND.
THERE WAS A REASON WHY
PAUL RHODES ANSWERED THAT
QUESTION RATHER THAN THE
LEADER, MICHAEL HARRIS.
IT'S JUST BECAUSE THIS
EVENTUALITY WOULD HAPPEN.
PAUL RHODES GOT UP
THERE AND SAID A LIE,
WHICH PREMIER HARRIS
COULDN'T SAY OR ELSE
PREMIER HARRIS WOULD
BE ROASTED RIGHT NOW.
THAT'S WHY PAUL RHODES
SAID IT, NOT HARRIS.

Ruth says MAYBE IT WASN'T
A STUPID PROMISE.
MAYBE IT WAS STUPID TO
BELIEVE WHAT HE WAS TOLD
BY THE CENTRE OF
THE CAMPAIGN.
YOU HEDGE ON THESE
THINGS BECAUSE YOU KNOW
THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO
CHANGE LATER AND YOU CAN'T -

Richard says BUT THE MINISTER BRINGS UP
A VERY GOOD POINT ON ALL
THESE THINGS AND I'VE
SAID THAT I HAVE SOME
TIME FOR HIS POSITION IN
TERMS OF OTTAWA-CARLETON.
I SAID I AGREE
WITH HIM ON THAT.
BUT IF HE TRULY MEANS THAT
WE HAVE TO WORK
THESE THINGS THROUGH,
WHY DON'T WE HAVE PUBLIC
HEARINGS ON THIS?
LET'S GET IT RIGHT.
I AGREE WITH THE MINISTER,
LET'S GET IT RIGHT.
LET'S HAVE PUBLIC
HEARINGS ON THESE BILLS,
MAKE SURE THAT - IN
TORONTO THE THING WAS
RUSHED THROUGH AND NOW
WE'RE AMENDING IT.
LET'S MAKE SURE WE DO IT
RIGHT IN OTTAWA-CARLETON,
AND DO IT RIGHT
IN HALDIMAND.

Michael says DID WE DO
IT WRONG IN TORONTO?

Richard says APPARENTLY ACCORDING
TO THE GOVERNMENT.
ACCORDING TO THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO -

Tony says NOT
AT ALL.

Richard says WELL YOU'RE MAKING
AN AMENDMENT.

Ruth says RICHARD, I HEARD THE
MINISTER IN QUESTION PERIOD
TODAY SAY THAT IN FACT
THERE'D BE FIRST, SECOND,
AND THIRD READING OF THE
BILL AND I ASSUMED THAT
MEANS THERE WILL BE PUBLIC
HEARINGS; WILL THERE?

Tony says WELL, THERE'S GOING
TO BE PUBLIC PROCESS.
I'M NOT IN CHARGE OF
WHAT ARE THE HEARINGS
OR WHAT THE HEARINGS ARE
OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

Ruth says WOULD YOU OBJECT TO
PUBLIC HEARINGS ON THE BILL?

Tony says I WOULDN'T OBJECT BUT IT'S
NOT MY CHOICE TO MAKE,
AND...

Ruth says WOULD YOU
RECOMMEND PUBLIC
HEARINGS ON THE BILL?

Tony says I WOULD SAY THIS, THERE
HAVE ALREADY BEEN PUBLIC
HEARINGS ON THESE ISSUES
BECAUSE WE HAVE LOOKED AT,
WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT
THIS FOR YEARS IN ALL
OF THOSE COMMUNITIES, AND
THOSE COMMUNITIES TRIED
FOR YEARS TO COME TO THESE
SOLUTIONS THROUGH PUBLIC
HEARINGS, TOWN HALL
MEETINGS, REPORTS,
MANY TREES HAVE DIED TO
CREATE THE REPORTS
THAT WENT ON SHELVES AND
WERE NOT ACTED UPON.
HEAR ME OUT.

Ruth says OKAY, THEN LET ME ANSWER
ON THE TORONTO ISSUE.

Tony continues THAT'S FINE.
SO WE EVENTUALLY
GOT TO A POINT,
AND RICHARD
KNOWS THIS WELL,
WHERE ALL OF THOSE
MUNICIPALITIES,
THE FOUR WHERE THE
RESTRUCTURING HAS TAKEN
PLACE SAID, PROVINCE, WE
HAVE TRIED FOR YEARS.
WE CAN'T GET TO
A SOLUTION.
WE NEED YOU TO APPOINT
A SPECIAL ADVISER.
WE NEED YOU TO GET INVOLVED
TO GET TO A SOLUTION.
THAT'S WHAT THE
MUNICIPALITIES
AND THE CITIZENS
WANTED FROM US.
THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DELIVERED
UPON AFTER A LOT OF PUBLIC
HEARINGS IN THOSE
COMMUNITIES.
AND THE SPECIAL ADVISERS
ENGAGED IN PUBLIC HEARINGS.

Ruth says OKAY, BUT LET ME MAKE THE
CASE AROUND THE TORONTO
REDUCTION IN COUNCIL
FROM 57 TO 44.
IN JULY, STEVE GILCHRIST,
WHEN HE WAS MINISTER,
SAID TO TORONTO, YOU
SORT OUT YOURSELVES
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.
TORONTO WENT THROUGH
PUBLIC HEARINGS.
TORONTO WENT THROUGH
CONSULTATIONS AROUND THE CITY.
TORONTO CONCLUDED 57 SEATS,
ONE COUNCILLOR PER WARD.
WENT TO THE ONTARIO
MUNICIPAL BOARD.
JUST THIS LAST MONDAY, THE
ONTARIO MUNICIPAL BOARD
AGREED WITH TORONTO
AND NOW, MINISTER,
YOU'RE SAYING THAT THEY
HAVE UNTIL SUNDOWN SUNDAY
OR SUNDOWN FRIDAY, GIVEN
THE HIGH HOLIDAYS,
AND TO DECIDE
BETWEEN 44 OR 22.

Tony says NOT AT ALL.
LET ME SAY A
COUPLE OF THINGS.
FIRST OF ALL, THE ONTARIO
MUNICIPAL BOARD DOES NOT
HAVE THE JURISDICTION TO
DEAL WITH THE NUMBER OF
COUNCILLORS, SO THEY DID
NOT HAVE - THAT WAS NOT
REFERRED TO THEM, AND SO IT
HAS NOT BEEN AN ISSUE
THAT THEY HAVE OPINED ON.
THIS DEBATE STARTED TWO AND
A HALF YEARS AGO WHERE OUR
ORIGINAL PROPOSAL FOR
THE CITY OF TORONTO
WAS 44 PLUS THE MAYOR.
THERE WAS A LOT OF
PUSHBACK FROM PEOPLE
IN TORONTO SAYING
THAT'S TOO FEW.

Steve says SO YOU GUYS
YIELDED.

Tony says PREMIER HARRIS SAID, LOOK,
LET'S TRY THE 57 MODEL,
56 PLUS THE MAYOR.
TRY IT FOR THIS TERM, BUT
I WANT THE CITY OF TORONTO
COME BACK TO SEE HOW THEY
CAN REDUCE THE NUMBER
OF POLITICIANS.
WE WAITED AND
WAITED AND WAITED.
THEY DID NOT COME BACK
WITH ANY SOLUTION,
SO WE HAVE SAID, LOOK, WE
HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
TO PRESENT A BILL
TO THE LEGISLATURE.
WE THINK THAT EITHER 44 OR
22 IS THE RIGHT OPTION.
GIVE US YOUR OPINION, CITY
COUNCIL, MAYOR OF TORONTO,
CITIZEN OF TORONTO.
YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY,
MORE THAN MOST PEOPLE HAVE.
YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
TO GIVE US FEEDBACK UNTIL
SATURDAY AT 5:00 ON WHAT
THE BILL WILL LOOK LIKE,
SO THEY'RE GETTING
TO HAVE THEIR INPUT.

Ruth says WHY DID YOU
LET THEM GO THROUGH
THE EXPENSIVE CHARADE?

Tony continues BEFORE THE BILL
IS EVEN PRODUCED.
AFTER THE BILL IS PRODUCED,
THEY'LL HAVE FIRST READING.
THEY'LL HAVE
SECOND READING.
THEY'LL HAVE THIRD
READING TO ALSO PRESENT
THE VIEWS OF THE
CITIZENS OF TORONTO.

Steve says DO YOU AGREE WITH
THIS PROCESS?
OR DO YOU THINK THE END OF
THE DAY THE PROVINCE SHOULD
JUST BRING THE HAMMER IN
AND CUT CITY COUNCIL IN HALF?

Michael says YES.

Steve says YOU DO?

Michael says CERTAINLY BECAUSE THE VIEW
THAT THE MUNICIPALITIES
ARE THE CREATURES OF THE
PROVINCE IS PERFECTLY SOUND.
IT IS THE PROVINCE.
IT'S THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
WHO HAVE AN INTEREST.
NOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING
THROUGH WITH TORONTO AND
THE NUMBER OF COUNCILLORS,
THE SAME THING YOU WENT
THROUGH ON AMALGAMATION.
IF YOU LEAVE IT UP
THE MUNICIPALITIES,
THE VESTED INTERESTS IN THE
MUNICIPALITIES PARALYZE
THEM EVERY TIME AND
NOTHING GETS DONE.

Steve says WOULD YOU LET THEM
WRITE THE BOUNDARIES?

Michael says NO.
YOU'D STILL BE
BACK IN THE DAYS
OF ONE-ROOM SCHOOL HOUSES
IF YOU LEAVE IT SOLELY
TO LOCAL INTERESTS.
THIS THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSIBILITY
AND THESE ARE
PROVINCE-WIDE ISSUES.

Steve says BUT WHAT IF TORONTO
SAYS, ALL RIGHT, FINE,
WE'LL GET DOWN TO
44 LIKE YOU WANT,
BUT WE WANT TO SAY WHERE
THE RIDING BOUNDARIES ARE.
IS THAT OKAY?

Ruth says THEN YOU LOSE
THE EFFICIENCIES
OF FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL
SEATS AND A SIMPLE -

Michael says YOU'RE WILLING TO BACK
AWAY FROM GIVING
THE TORONTONIANS WHAT
THEY WANT ON THAT, RUTH.

Ruth says NO, TORONTO IS NOW
SAYING, WE'VE NO CHOICE.
WE ACCEPT THE 44.
AND I'M SAYING, IF
THAT'S THE POSITION,
THEN IF WHAT THE MINISTER
SAYS ABOUT THE NEED TO BE
EFFICIENT AND CUT TAXES AND
COSTS AND ALL THE REST OF IT
APPLIES, THEN IT ONLY
MAKES SENSE TO HAVE
THE 44 THAT ARE THE
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL RIDINGS.

Steve says IS THAT THE WAY
IT'S GOING TO BE?

Tony says WELL, YEAH, HERE'S THE
OFFER WE'VE MADE TO
TORONTONIANS AND
THE CITY COUNCIL.
WE SAID, LOOK, WE'RE
LOOKING AT 22.
THERE'S 22 FEDERAL OR
PROVINCIAL RIDINGS IN TORONTO.
WE SAID, WE'RE LOOKING AT
22 OR WE'RE LOOKING AT 44.
WHAT WOULD YOU
PREFER, 22 OR 44?
IF IT'S 44, IT HAS TO BE
BASED UPON THE 22 RIDINGS,
BUT WE WANT YOUR OPINION
HOW TO SLICE UP THOSE
RIDINGS WITHIN
THOSE BOUNDARIES.
IS IT NORTH SOUTH?
EAST WEST WITHIN
THE BOUNDARIES.

Steve says DO YOU KNOW THE
GREAT IRONY IN THIS?
LET ME PICK UP ON THAT
'CAUSE THAT IS THE GREAT
IRONY IN ALL THIS.
THE MEMBERS THAT GET
SQUEEZED OUT
ARE PREDOMINANTLY
CONSERVATIVES,
LO AND BEHOLD.
AND NEW DEMOCRATS - YES,
THAT'S ALL THE ANALYSIS I'M
READING IS THAT MOST OF THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE AREAS
THAT ARE GOING TO
BE SQUEEZED OUT
ARE CONSERVATIVES.
CASE OOTES, FOR EXAMPLE,
THE DEPUTY MAYOR.

Ruth says BUT DOUG HOLYDAY WHO
WAS A BIG SUPPORTER OF THIS
IS QUOTED AS SAYING
THERE'LL BE NO MORE
NEW DEMOCRATS
IN THE WEST END,
SO I MEAN, IT'S VERY -

Michael says IT'S BECAUSE Mr. OOTES
COMES FROM A POCKET
BOROUGH OF EAST
YORK WHICH IS -

[laughing]
[all talking at the same time]

Richard says DON'T WANT TO BE ON THIS
PROGRAM IS A MUNICIPAL
POLITICIAN PARTICULARLY
FROM EAST YORK.
[laughing]
MICHAEL IS REALLY
POUNDING THEM HARD.
[laughing]

Steve says THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT IS THAT AN
UNANTICIPATED IRONY IN ALL
OF THIS, IS THAT YOU'RE
TRYING TO SQUEEZE TORONTO
COUNCIL DOWN AND IN EFFECT
WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO
IS PUT MORE TORIES OUT OF
WORK THAN ANYBODY ELSE?

Tony says WELL, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BUT -

Steve says OF COURSE YOU DO!

Tony says I THINK IT GOES
TO OUR INTENT.
OUR INTENT OBVIOUSLY,
IF YOU'RE CORRECT,
AND IT SO
COUNTERINTUITIVE,
OUR INTENT OBVIOUSLY IS SO
PURE BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY
WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT
IS GOING TO HELP -

Richard says IT'S WHAT I'VE SAID
ABOUT THIS GOVERNMENT -
GERRYMANDERING.

Steve says IT'S VERY PURE.

Richard says VERY PURE, RIGHT
FROM THE BEGINNING.

Steve says WELL THAT'S WHY THE BILL'S
BEING HELD UP SO MUCH,
BECAUSE THE TORIES IN
MUNICIPAL POLITICS
ARE RAISING HELL; WOULDN'T
YOU SAY THAT'S ACCURATE?

Steve smiles.

Tony says NO, MY JOB IS TO BRING THE
BEST BILL POSSIBLE TO THE
LEGISLATURE, AND I HAVE TO
TAKE A BIT OF EXTRA
TIME TO DO THAT,
THAT'S WHAT I'LL DO.

Ruth says IF IT ISN'T THE
FEDERAL PROVINCIAL
BOUNDARIES AND IT IS ALLOWED
TO BE NEW 44 BOUNDARIES
IN TORONTO, THEN
WE'LL KNOW THAT WHAT
YOU'RE SAYING IS CORRECT.

Steve says THAT IS
TRUE, TOO.

Richard says AND
THEY'LL BE GERRYMANDERING
ESSENTIALLY.

Steve says LET'S BRING MEL
LASTMAN INTO THIS.
MEL LASTMAN HAS - WAS
INITIALLY EXTREMELY UPSET
WITH THE WAY YOU
GUYS DID THIS.
NOW I KNOW MEL HAS BEEN
KNOWN TO LOSE HIS TEMPER
A COUPLE OF TIMES IN THE
PAST AND WE DON'T ALWAYS
PAY THE GREATEST OF HEED
WHEN THAT HAPPENS.
BUT MEL LASTMAN, FOR
BETTER OR FOR WORSE,
IS THE MOST POPULAR
POLITICIAN IN THIS CITY TODAY.
I THINK THAT'S
ACCURATE TO SAY.
YOU CROSSED HIM ON SCHOOL
CLOSINGS BEFORE.
AND SUDDENLY AT THE LAST
HOUR, AT THE 11TH HOUR,
YOU HAD TO COME UP WITH 200
MILLION BUCKS BECAUSE
YOU KNEW MEL WAS
KILLING YOU ON IT.
ARE YOU WORRIED THAT HE'S
NOT ON SIDE ON THIS
AND WHAT THAT MIGHT
PORTEND FOR YOU?

Tony says WELL, I WOULD SAY IT'S
KINDA LIKE THE CUBAN
MISSILE CRISIS WHERE YOU
WHICH COMMUNIQUE DO YOU
WANT TO TAKE FROM THE
CRAZY KHRUSHCHEV LEADER?
OF COURSE MEL
ISN'T CRAZY.
SO AT LEAST WE'VE
GOT THAT ADVANTAGE.

Ruth says SO WHICH PART IS
MEL PLAYING?

Richard says HE'S NIKITA.

Tony says SO HE HAS COME TO US
YESTERDAY AND SAID,
ON RADIO, THAT
HE'S OKAY WITH 44.
HE WANTS A LITTLE BIT
OF SAY AS TO WHAT
THE BOUNDARIES ARE.

Steve says HE ALSO SAID THIS WAS
HIGHWAY ROBBERY
AND YOU WERE DRIVING
THE GETAWAY CAR.

Tony says SO THAT'S WHY I'M SAYING,
I WANT TO ACCEPT -
I THINK MEL IS BEING MOST
REASONABLE WHEN HE SAYS THAT FEWER POLITICIANS
IS BETTER THAN MORE
POLITICIANS, AND THAT'S A
VERY SENSIBLE THING
TO SAY AND I
AGREE WITH HIM.
HE'S A VERY
PASSIONATE MAN.
HE IS A VERY SENSIBLE MAN
WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT.
AND SO HE IS SAYING, WE
CAN WORK WITH THE 44
BUT WE WANT A SAY AS TO HOW
THOSE BOUNDARIES ARE SET UP,
AND I THINK THAT'S A
PERFECTLY REASONABLE POSITION.
SO WE'RE HOPING TO GIVE HIM
THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE HIS SAY.

Richard says VIEWERS AT HOME WILL NOTE
THAT TONY CLEMENT
HAS DOWNGRADED HIS
CHARACTERIZATION OF MEL
FROM CRAZY TO PASSIONATE.
[laughing]

Tony says NIKITA KHRUSHCHEV
WAS CRAZY.

Richard says OKAY.

Tony says MEL IS NOT CRAZY.

Steve says HE SAID MEL
WAS NOT CRAZY.

Ruth says NO, BUT I MEAN, THERE'S A
PATTERN TO ALL OF THIS.
MEL GOES OFF AND SAYS HE'S GOING TO FIGHT
THE PROVINCE AND
ALL THE REST OF IT,
AND THEN HE BACKS OFF,
AND I AGREE WITH TONY,
HE'S NOW SAYING
44 SEATS.
AND YOU ALSO SEE A PATTERN
OF HOW THE GOVERNMENT BEHAVES.
I MEAN, AS YOU MENTIONED,
THERE WAS FLACK OVER
THE ORIGINAL MEGACITY AND
THE 44 SEAT PROPOSAL.
AND SO, BACK OFF 57, AND
THEN A YEAR OR SO LATER,
COME BACK AND DO WHAT WAS
ORIGINALLY INTENDED
WHICH WAS THE 44.

Steve says OKAY.
YOU KNOW WHAT I'VE GOT AND
FORGIVE ME, PROFESSOR,
DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE
HERE AND I WANT TO OBSERVE
FOR THE FIRST TIME ON
THIS PROGRAM THAT DALTON
MCGUINTY IS THE FORMER
AND STILL LEADER
OF THE ONTARIO
LIBERAL PARTY.
CONGRATULATIONS, RICHARD
MAHONEY, 80 PERCENT PLUS VOTE.
81.1 PERCENT,
I THINK.
PRETTY BIG NUMBER.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO WAX
RHAPSODIC ABOUT THAT?

Richard says HOW MUCH
TIME DO I HAVE?

Steve says 45 SECONDS.
TELL ME A FUNNY STORY
ABOUT THE WEEKEND.

Richard says SURE, IT WAS A GREAT
VICTORY FOR DALTON.
IT TURNS OUT THE LEADERSHIP
REVIEW'S ACTUALLY HELPED HIM
CEMENT HIS HOLD ON THE
PARTY AND IT'S A BIG WIN.
HE SHOWED HE CAN WIN
LEADERSHIP AND THAT.
I WANT TO THANK TONY FOR
SENDING SOME PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES TO
THE CONVENTION.
WE HAD A COUPLE OF
REVIEW DELEGATES.
ONE WAS A MIKE HARRIS
CANDIDATE IN SCARBOROUGH
ROUGE RIVER, MIKE
THOMPSON, I THINK,
SO HE VOTED FOR
REVIEW AND
HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGER ALSO
CAME UNDER AN ASSUMED
NAME WHICH I THOUGHT
WAS VERY DASTARDLY.

Tony raises his eyebrows.

Richard continues SO WE WANT TO SEE MORE
TORIES AT OUR CONVENTION
AND THANKS, TONY,
FOR HELPING OUT.

Ruth says AND YOU WANT TO THANK TVO
FOR THE AIRING LAST WEEK
THAT I'M SURE CONSOLIDATED
DALTON'S VICTORY.

Richard says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says I HAVE TIME LEFT TO
THANK TONY CLEMENT,
THE MINISTER - YOU THOUGHT
YOU WERE GOING TO GET
TO WORK ON THE
ENVIRONMENT, DIDN'T YOU?

Smiling, Tony says PLEASE INVITE ME BACK.
I'D LOVE TO TALK
ABOUT ENVIRONMENT.

Steve laughs and says SOME TIME.
MINISTER OF
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS,
MPP FOR BRAMPTON WEST,
AND TO THE THREE OF YOU,
PROFESSOR BLISS AS WELL,
THANKS FOR PINCH HITTING.
SEE YOU AGAIN
NEXT TIME.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
JOIN US NEXT TIME FOR
ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.

(music plays)

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Denise Salamat.

Editor, Paul Colbourne.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1999, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #177 "Municipal Restructuring"