Transcript: Show #171 "Steve Gilchrist" | Oct 17, 1999

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a Steve Gilchrist talking to the press.

Steve says THIS
WEEK ON 4TH READING,
DID HE OR DIDN'T HE?
THE OPP INVESTIGATE
STEVE GILCHRIST
FOR INFLUENCE PEDDLING
WHILE MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS MINISTER.

Steve, Ruth, Richard and another panelist sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his mid-thirties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a blue jacket over a dark blue sweater.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
STEVE PAIKIN HERE
WITH THIS EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
STEVE GILCHRIST IS ONE OF
THOSE TORY MPPs THAT TALK
SHOWS LOVE AND THE FEELING
HAS ALWAYS BEEN MUTUAL.
GILCHRIST LIKES TO BE ON TV
AND TV SHOWS LIKE TO BOOK HIM
AS A GUEST BECAUSE HE'S
ONE OF THE BEST AND MOST
ENTERTAINING COMMUNICATORS
IN THIS PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT.
BUT THIS WEEK, STEVE
GILCHRIST IS ALL OVER
THE TELLY AND FOR ALL
THE WRONG REASONS.
GILCHRIST IS UNDER
INVESTIGATION BY THE OPP.
SHOULD THE SCARBOROUGH
MPP, WHO'S ALSO A CABINET
MINISTER, HAVE TO QUIT IF
HE'S UNDER INVESTIGATION?
GILCHRIST SAYS THE ANSWER
IS AN EMPHATIC NO.

A clip plays.

A caption appears on screen. It reads "Steve Gilchrist. Municipal Affairs Minister." He’s in his forties, with a blond beard and blond hair. He’s wearing a dark suit, white shirt and striped tie.

Gilchrist says I HAVE NOT COMMITTED
ANY SUCH INDISCRETION,
AND THE FACT OF
THE MATTER IS,
I'M KEEN TO SEE THIS MATTER
PROSECUTED VERY QUICKLY AND
HOPE THE OPP GETS AROUND TO
CONTACTING ME SO THAT I CAN
MAKE SURE THAT OUR SIDE OF
THE ISSUE IS ADDRESSED.

A Male Reporter says YOU MEAN RESOLVED,
NOT PROSECUTED, DON'T YOU?

Gilchrist says PROSECUTED.
THAT'S THE WORD
THAT'S USED.
DEAL WITH IT QUICKLY.

A Female Reporter says Mr. GILCHRIST, THE
THRONE SPEECH IS COMING UP.
ARE YOU CONCERNED AT
ALL THE EFFECT THIS
WHOLE SITUATION WILL
HAVE ON THE THAT?

Gilchrist says WELL, I DON'T SEE THE
RELEVANCE AND, AGAIN,
I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT
THE ALLEGATION IS.

[barrage of questions]

Gilchrist says I DON'T THINK
THERE'S ANY MORE -
I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING THIS
ISSUE RESOLVED QUICKLY.

Another Male Reporter says IF THERE'S A
CLOUD OVER YOUR HEAD,
WHY DON'T YOU RESIGN?

Gilchrist walks away.

The clip ends.

Steve says STEVE GILCHRIST
EARLIER THIS WEEK
WITH REPORTERS AT
QUEEN'S PARK.
LET'S GET INTO THIS
HERE WITH OUR OWN
QUEEN'S PARK GANG.
HERE IS RICHARD MAHONEY
FROM THE OTTAWA LAW FIRM
FRASER MILNER, A
PAST PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO LIBERALS.

Richard Mahoney is in his forties, clean-shaven with gray hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, blue shirt and a silk patterned yellow tie.

Steve continues RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She’s wearing a dark blue blazer over a gray shirt.

Steve continues AND MAC PENNEY FROM
GPC, GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS.

Mac Penney is in his early fifties, clean-shaven with white hair. He’s wearing glasses, a dark gray jacket, blue shirt and patterned tie.

Steve continues RICHARD, START US OFF.
MAKE THE CASE FOR
WHY YOU BELIEVE
HE SHOULD HAVE
TO RESIGN.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says WELL, I THINK THERE IS,
FIRST OF ALL, A TRADITION
IN MOST GOVERNMENTS, A
TRADITION RECENTLY HONOURED
IN ONTARIO, THAT WHEN A
CABINET MINISTER IS UNDER
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION,
POLICE INVESTIGATION
IN THIS CASE, THAT
HE OUGHT TO RESIGN
WHILE THAT MATTER IS BEING
INVESTIGATED FOR TWO REASONS.
FIRST OF ALL, HE'S BEING
INVESTIGATION BY THE
ONTARIO PROVINCIAL
POLICE WHO ACTUALLY
ARE AN AGENCY OF THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO.
AND SECONDLY, THE
INVESTIGATION
CAN TAKE PLACE IN
A TIMELY WAY.
THE MINISTER WILL
NOT BE DISTRACTED
BY THE INVESTIGATION
AND THE WORK AT THAT
MINISTRY CAN GO ON
UNAFFECTED BY THAT.
THE GOVERNMENT HONOURED
THAT APPROACH
WITH Mr. WILSON WHO WAS
THE HEALTH MINISTER
WAS INVESTIGATED FOR A
LEAK IN HIS OFFICE
THAT ONE OF HIS AIDES,
I GUESS, DID.
AND SECONDLY THE SOLICITOR
GENERAL, Mr. RUNCIMAN,
WAS ALSO INVESTIGATED FOR
AN INADVERTENT INFRACTION
IN A THRONE SPEECH WHERE A
YOUNG OFFENDER WAS IDENTIFIED.
THIS MAY BE A MUCH MORE
SERIOUS ALLEGATION.

Steve says BOTH OF THEM RESIGNED.

Richard says RESIGNED TEMPORARILY.

Steve says TEMPORARILY AND
CAME BACK.

Richard continues WERE CLEARED AND CAME BACK
AND NO ONE OBJECTED TO THEM
COMING BACK, NOR
SHOULD ANYONE OBJECT
TO THEM COMING BACK.

Steve says MAC, HERE'S
THE STORY.
STEVE GILCHRIST IS
GIVING A SPEECH.
AFTER THE SPEECH IS OVER,
HE'S APPROACHED BY A GUY
NAMED STEVEN KAISER FROM
THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT INSTITUTE.
STEVEN KAISER'S
A FORMER COP.
HE'S A DEVELOPER.
HE'S PRESUMABLY PRO TORY
BECAUSE MOST DEVELOPERS
IN THIS PROVINCE ARE.
HE COMES UP TO STEVE
GILCHRIST AND HE SAYS,
WE WANT A MEETING.
AND STEVE GILCHRIST IS
ALLEGED TO HAVE SAID,
TALK TO THIS GUY WHO HOLDS
FUNDRAISERS FOR ME.
THE APPEARANCE
OF A SHAKEDOWN.
THAT'S WHAT THIS
IS ALL ABOUT.
GIVE ME THE CASE ON WHY HE
SHOULDN'T HAVE TO RESIGN.
IF THAT IS TRUE, AND
IF THAT WENT DOWN,
WHY SHOULDN'T HE
HAVE TO RESIGN?

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says WELL, I THINK
OPERATIVE THING THERE,
STEVE, IS, IF IT'S
TRUE, HE SHOULD.
I THINK - NOW WE MIGHT BE
SLICING THE SALAMI
RATHER THIN HERE, BUT TO
TAKE THE DISTINCTION
BETWEEN THE TWO CASES
THAT RICHARD RAISED
AND THE CASE INVOLVING
Mr. GILCHRIST IS,
IN THE TWO CASES THAT
RICHARD RAISED,
THERE WAS NO QUESTION
ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
IN ONE CASE, THE LEAK OF THE
INFORMATION WAS OBVIOUS.
IN ONE CASE IT WAS IN
THE THRONE SPEECH
AND THAT WAS PUBLIC.
IT BECAME A QUESTION OF
WHAT WAS THE MINISTER'S
INVOLVEMENT IN EACH
OF THOSE EVENTS.
IN THIS CASE,
WHAT'S AT ISSUE IS,
WHAT IN FACT
DID HAPPEN.
WHETHER Mr. GILCHRIST -
Mr. KAISER APPROACHED
Mr. GILCHRIST OR SOME
MEMBER OF THE AUDIENCE
APPROACHED Mr. GILCHRIST
AND THEN APPROACH
Mr. KAISER, I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK THAT AT THIS
POINT IF - I SUPPOSE
PUT IT THIS WAY, THEY'RE
LOOKING AT A CLAIM.
IF THE CLAIM IS
SUBSTANTIATED THEN
THERE'S GOING TO BE
AN INVESTIGATION.
AT THAT POINT I THINK THE
MINISTER SHOULD STEP DOWN.
BUT WE'RE DEBATING -
WHAT'S BEING DEBATED
HERE IS REALLY AN
ISSUE OF FACT.
I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT I
DON'T - I THINK I'D BE
A LOT LESS COMFORTABLE WITH
Mr. GILCHRIST BEING IN PLACE
IF I THOUGHT THERE
WAS ANY WAY IN WHICH
HE COULD INFLUENCE THE
CONDUCT OF THE INVESTIGATION.

Steve says AND YOU
THINK HE CAN'T.

Mac continues I DON'T THINK HE CAN.
AND THE ISSUE I UNDERSTAND
HAS BEEN REMOVED
FROM THE MINISTER.

Steve says THE FILE IN QUESTION,
HE'S NO LONGER ON.
LET ME GO TO THE FORMER
CABINET MINISTER ON THIS.
YOU MUST HAVE IN THE
COURSE OF YOUR FIVE YEARS
IN CABINET RUN INTO SITUATIONS
WHERE YOU HAD PEOPLE SAYING
THINGS ABOUT YOU, ALLEGING
THINGS ABOUT YOU THAT
WERE TRUE, THAT WEREN'T
TRUE, WHATEVER,
AND YOU NO DOUBT WOULD NOT
WANT TO HAVE STEPPED DOWN
EVERY TIME SOMEBODY
MADE AN ALLEGATION
ABOUT RUTH GRIER, THE
ENVIRONMENT MINISTER,
OR RUTH GRIER THE
HEALTH MINISTER.
SO DO YOU HAVE ANY SYMPATHY
FOR HIS POSITION
IN THIS CASE WHICH SAYS,
UNTIL I SEE SOME FIRE,
I'M NOT GOING TO
QUIT OVER THE SMOKE?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says WELL I WOULD MAKE A
DISTINCTION BETWEEN THIS
CASE AND THE GENERALIZATION
THAT RICHARD MADE,
THAT THERE'S A TRADITION
OF PEOPLE STEPPING DOWN,
BECAUSE I ACCEPT YOUR POINT
THAT IF EVERY TIME THERE
WAS AN ACCUSATION AGAINST
A CABINET MINISTER,
THAT MINISTER HAD
TO STEP ASIDE.
THEN IT WOULD BE A RECIPE
FOR UNSTABLE GOVERNMENT
AND WE'D ALL BE FIRING
ACCUSATIONS FAR AND WIDE.
IN THIS CASE, THERE'S A
COUPLE OF I THINK SPECIFICS
THAT MAKE THE DESIRABILITY
OF HIM STAYING ON QUESTIONABLE,
AND I THINK ESSENTIALLY THAT
BECOMES A PREMIER'S CALL,
WHETHER HE ASKS FOR
THE RESIGNATION
OR WHETHER HE DOESN'T, AND
IN SOME CASES THE MINISTER
INSISTS ON STEPPING DOWN,
BUT OBVIOUSLY GILCHRIST IS NOT.
BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS
THE OPP WHO ARE DOING
THE INVESTIGATION.
IT COULD BE THE CONFLICT
OF INTEREST COMMISSION
OR SOMEBODY ELSE DEPENDING
ON THE ACCUSATION.
SO I THINK THE FACT
THAT IT'S THE POLICE
IS SIGNIFICANT.
AND FOR ME THE POLITICS OF
IT IS VERY INTERESTING.
I MEAN, THIS IS,
AS YOU'VE SAID,
THE DEVELOPERS WHO ARE THE
FRIENDS OF THE TORIES
WHO HAVE HAD EVERYTHING
THEY WANTED FROM THIS
GOVERNMENT, WHETHER IT
BE THEIR OWN APPOINTEES
ON BOARDS OR RELAXING
OF THE PLANNING ACT,
AND THEY'RE COMPLAINING
ABOUT HOW TO GET ACCESS
TO STEVE GILCHRIST?
I MEAN, THAT TO ME IS
PECULIAR ENOUGH THAT
IT OBVIOUSLY RAISES A
WHOLE HOST OF DOUBTS
IN PEOPLE'S MINDS.

Steve says FROM WHAT I'M TOLD,
THOUGH, STEVEN KAISER,
THE GUY AT THE CENTRE OF
THIS WHO MADE THE COMPLAINT
TO THE PREMIER'S OFFICE
THOUGHT THAT THE PREMIER
HIMSELF WAS GOING
TO DEAL WITH IT.
I SUSPECT HE THOUGHT
SOMEBODY IN THE PREMIER'S
OFFICE WAS GOING
TO CALL GILCHRIST.
THEY WERE GOING TO
GET THIS ORGANIZED
AND THEY WOULD NOT
HAVE GONE TO THE COPS.
I THINK HE WAS THE FIRST
GUY TO RAISE HIS EYEBROWS
WHEN HE HEARD THE POLICE
WERE BEING BROUGHT IN.

Ruth says YOU MENTIONED THAT
HE WAS A LAWYER.
YOU MENTIONED HOW CLOSE
HE WAS TO THE TORIES.
I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT
HE WASN'T AWARE -

Steve says I DON'T
KNOW THAT HE -
HE'S AN EX-COP.
I DON'T KNOW THAT
HE'S A LAWYER.

Mac says I DON'T THINK STEVE
KAISER IS A LAWYER.

Steve says DON'T EVEN KNOW
IF HE'S PRO TORY.

Ruth says YOU
CAN ASSUME.

Mac says I THINK WE CAN
ASSUME HE IS.
BUT I THINK STEVE IS
I DON'T KNOW
IF HE'S A DEVELOPER.
I THINK HE'S THE
DIRECTOR OF THE URBAN
DEVELOPMENT INSTITUTE.
I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S
A DEVELOPER HIMSELF.
BUT I THINK THAT THE
PREMIER'S OFFICE HANDLED
THE MATTER, I THINK,
QUITE APPROPRIATELY.
IT'S NOT THE JOB OF
THE PREMIER'S OFFICE
TO INVESTIGATE WHAT IS
THIS TYPE OF CLAIM.

Richard says YOU MENTIONED
THE PREMIER.
TWO INTERESTING
THINGS ABOUT
THE PREMIER'S
CONDUCT HERE.
THE FIRST IS, OF
COURSE, HIS RESPONSE,
WHICH WAS IF WE RESPONDED
THIS WAY TO EVERY
ALLEGATION, HE GETS
ALLEGATIONS MADE
EVERY DAY ABOUT HIS
CABINET MINISTERS.
MANY OF THEM
MADE BY TEACHERS,
THE ONE GROUP INTERESTINGLY
ENOUGH HE SINGLED OUT.

Some of them laugh.

Richard continues IN CASE YOU DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND, FOLKS AT HOME,
HE HAS A BIT OF A
HATE ON FOR TEACHERS.

Steve says OR THEY FOR
HIM IS WHAT HE SUGGESTED.

Richard continues THE SECOND THING WAS
THAT IF IN FACT THERE'S
SOMETHING TO THIS, THE
PREMIER'S IN A BIT OF TROUBLE.
IF GILCHRIST RESIGNS
AND IS CLEARED,
THE PREMIER IS FINE.
IF GILCHRIST RESIGNS AND
SOMETHING - AND CHARGES
ARE LAID AND A CONVICTION
IS MADE PERHAPS,
THE PREMIER STILL
DID THE RIGHT THING.
HE ASKED HIS
MINISTER TO RESIGN.
BY STICKING BY GILCHRIST,
HE TAKES THE RISK.
HE SHARES THE RISK WITH
GILCHRIST THAT IF IN FACT
THERE'S SOMETHING
TO THIS ALLEGATION,
IT WILL COME
BACK ON HIM.

Steve says OKAY, BUT YOU GOT TO LOOK
AT THE POLITICS OF THIS,
AND THE POLITICS IS
THAT STEVE GILCHRIST
CARRIED A LOT OF HEAVY
WATER FOR THIS GOVERNMENT.
COMING ON THESE TV SHOWS WE
SUGGESTED AT THE BEGINNING
WHERE HE WAS THE LONE TORY
GETTING HIS BASHED IN
ON ISSUES LIKE MEGACITY,
ON SHUTTING DOWN SCHOOLS.

Ruth says AND LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF
IT, AND DOING IT NOT BADLY.

Steve says GETTING HIS BRAINS BEAT IN
BASICALLY FOR MIKE HARRIS
AND NOW THAT HE'S IN THE
FIRST BIT OF TROUBLE,
MIKE'S GOING TO PULL THE
RUG OUT FROM UNDER HIM?
I DON'T THINK SO.

Ruth says I DON'T
THINK SO EITHER.
THAT'S WHAT'S
GOING ON, RIGHT?
BUT I THINK THAT AGAIN THE
THOUGHT IN THE PREMIER'S
MIND HAS TO BE, AS
IN ANY PREMIER'S,
IF I PULL THE RUG
OUT UNDER THIS ONE,
WHAT OTHER ALLEGATIONS ARE
GOING TO BE MADE SPURIOUS
OR NON-SPURIOUS, AND DO
I LOSE HALF MY CABINET?
SO IT'S A DELICATE BALANCE
AND IN SOME CASES
PREMIERS HAVE DONE IT
QUICKLY AND APPROPRIATELY.
IN OTHERS THEY'VE LET IT DRAG
ON AND THE RESIGNATIONS
HAD TO COME
TWO WEEKS LATER AND
THAT'S LOOKED BAD
ON EVERYBODY.

Steve says YOU'VE GOT A THRONE SPEECH
COMING DOWN NEXT WEEK AND
IF Mr. GILCHRIST IS STILL
AROUND NEXT WEEK AND HASN'T
LEFT, CAN YOU IMAGINE THE
FIRST - THAT THRONE SPEECH
IS GOING TO BE A 30-SECOND
PHENOMENON ON THE NEWS
AND EVERY QUESTION IN QUESTION
PERIOD'S GOING TO ABOUT THIS.

Mac says NOT ONLY THAT, BUT I WOULD
THINK THAT LOOKING AT
MY COLLEAGUES HERE
ACROSS THE TABLE,
I WOULD EXPECT THAT THEIR
HOUSE TACTICIANS AND
STRATEGISTS ARE CURRENTLY
BUSY PORING THROUGH
THE PRECEDENTS AND THE RULES
TO SEE - AND I ASSUME
THE SAME IS BEING DONE ON
THE GOVERNMENT'S SIDE,
TO SEE WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH
RESPECT TO A THRONE SPEECH.
AND THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE
IN THE PAST WITH RESPECT
TO THRONE SPEECH AND BUDGETS
TO MAKE POLITICAL POINTS
AND MAY WELL BE THAT THE
NDP AND THE LIBERALS WOULD
HAVE THEIR HOUSE
STRATEGISTS MULLING OVER
THEIR OPTIONS ON
THAT POINT RIGHT NOW.

Steve says ONE THING THE PREMIER DID
SAY IS THAT HE HAS TAKEN
Mr. GILCHRIST OFF THE FILE IN
QUESTION WITHIN HIS MINISTRY.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY IDEA
WHAT THAT FILE WOULD BE
AND IS THAT A
LITTLE WEIRD?
HOW CAN YOU HAVE A MINISTER
OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
DEALING WITH A WHOLE RANGE
OF ISSUES BUT PRESUMABLY
NOTHING SURROUNDING
DEVELOPMENT?

Ruth says I MEAN, THE FILE
IN QUESTION IS,
I WOULD ASSUME, A
DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION
IN WHICH THE PEOPLE WHO
SOUGHT TO TALK TO HIM
HAD AN INTEREST.
BUT TO ME THE ISSUE
IS A MUCH BROADER ONE.
HOW DOES HE HANDLE ANY
REQUEST FOR A DISCUSSION.
SO YOU CAN'T NARROW IT TO
ONE PARTICULAR FILE
AND SAY, OH, IT'S OKAY.
HE'S OFF THAT FILE.
DAMN IT, IF HE'S MINISTER
OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS,
HE SHOULDN'T HAVE AN
INTEREST IN A FILE
TO BEGIN WITH.

Steve says WANT TO MAKE SOME
PREDICTIONS?
DOES HE SURVIVE THIS?

Richard thinks and says IT LOOKS LIKE THE PREMIER
IS STANDING BEHIND HIM,
SO THAT'LL HELP.

Steve says THAT'S TODAY.

Richard says THAT'S TODAY.
I MUST SAY MY BET IS THAT
IF THERE'S ANYTHING
TO THIS ALLEGATION AND THE
INVESTIGATION CONTINUES
FOR LONGER THAN THIS
WEEK, HE'S GONE.

Steve says RUTH?

Ruth says HE'S GONE.

Steve says MAC?

Mac says I REALLY THINK IT WILL
DEPEND ON THE RESULT
OF THE INVESTIGATION.

Steve says IF HE'S CLEARED
BY THE INVESTIGATION,
HE AIN'T GOING ANYWHERE.

Mac says HE'LL STAY.

Steve says OKAY.
THE GILCHRIST SITUATION
HAS MOMENTARILY, AT LEAST,
TAKEN ATTENTION AWAY FROM
A PROBLEM THE HARRIS
SEEMS DETERMINED TO
SOLVE, AND THAT IS,
WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE
INCREASING NUMBER OF SO-CALLED
SQUEEGEE KIDS AT
THE MAJOR INTERSECTIONS
OF OUR BIGGEST CITIES
IN THE COUNTRY?
THE ISSUE WAS ONE OF THOSE
HOT BUTTONS THE TORIES
PUSHED IN RIDING TO VICTORY IN
LAST JUNE'S ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
AND IN A MOMENT WE'LL BE
JOINED BY THE MAN WHO USED
TO RUN THE SHOUT CLINIC
IN DOWNTOWN TORONTO.
THAT'S A HEALTH CENTRE
FOR STREET KIDS.
HE'LL UNVEIL NEW
INFORMATION HERE SUGGESTING
THE SITUATION ON THE
STREETS IS A LOT MORE
COMPLICATED THAN THE
GOVERNMENT REALIZES.
FIRST, THE BACKGROUND.

A clip plays.

Speaking to the press, Mike Harris says WE STILL HAD TO FIND NEW
AND CREATIVE WAYS
TO DO MORE FOR LESS.

A Male Reporter says FROM THAT SQUEEGEE
KIDS EMERGE AS A PRIORITY?

Steve says THE
TORIES HAVE SAID,
IT'S A TOP PRIORITY.
THEY'VE PROMISED A NEW
LAW TO CLAMP DOWN
ON SQUEEGEE KIDS AND STOP
AGGRESSIVE PANHANDLING.

A male teenager wipes a car windshield using a washcloth.

The caption changes to "Gerry Martiniuk, MPP. Parl. Ass., Attorney-General." Gerry is in his late fifties, clean-shaven with receding thin hair. He’s wearing a blue suit.

Gerry says YOU WORK FOR A LIVING.
I THINK THEY SHOULD BE
WORKING FOR A LIVING.
DON'T FORGET, THEY'RE
NOT PROVIDING A SERVICE.
LET'S NOT KID
OUR SELF.
THEY'RE BEGGING AND THEY'RE
AGGRESSIVE BEGGARS.
I'VE PERSONALLY - I SEE
THEM ALL THE TIME AND
I COULD GET
APPREHENSIVE.

Sitting on the street, a young woman says SPARE ANY CHANGE.

Steve says A NEW SURVEY
OBTAINED BY 4TH READING
PAINTS A SOMEWHAT
DIFFERENT PICTURE.
ITS GOAL IS SIMPLE, TO
DETERMINE HOW YOUNG MEN
AND WOMEN WHO LIVE ON THE
STREETS EARN A LIVING.
THE REPORT SUGGESTS MORE
THAN A THIRD OF STREET
YOUTH IN TORONTO GET AN
INCOME FROM PANHANDLING
OR SQUEEGEEING.

A slate captioned "Shout Report" reads "19 percent crimes, 18 percent social assistance, 17 percent paid jobs, 10 percent sex trade."

The caption changes to "Carlos Francis. Squeegee Working Youth Mobilization." Carlos is his late twenties, with a soft beard and a shaved head. He’s wearing glasses and a striped gray shirt.

Carlos says THERE'S ONLY A FEW
ALTERNATIVES IF SOMEBODY
DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS
TO THE MAINSTREAM.
ONE IS GOING TO BE
CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.
ONE IS GOING TO BE SELLING
THEIR BODIES IN THE STREET,
AND ONE RIGHT NOW
IS SQUEEGEEING.
IF YOU'RE GOING
TO TAKE THAT AWAY,
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FALL
INTO THE OTHER CATEGORIES.

Gerry says THEY CAN BE ON
PUBLIC ASSISTANCE.
THEY TAKE PART
IN WORKFARE.
THEY COULD
GET A JOB.
I MEAN, WE'RE ATTRACTING
THEM TO TORONTO FROM
ALL OVER THE NATION
BECAUSE IT'S A SOFT TOUCH.
THEY CAN MAKE ENOUGH
MONEY FOR THEIR DRUGS
IN A COUPLE OF HOURS.
WE DON'T NEED
THEM HERE.

The caption changes to "Peter Kormos, MPP. NDP Attorney-General Critic." Peter is in his fifties, clean-shaven with blond hair. He’s wearing a black jacket over a blue shirt.

Peter says SQUEEGEE KIDS ARE THE
MODELS OF THE HARRIS
PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE.
IF LIFE DEALS
YOU A BAD HAND,
GET OUT THERE AND BECOME
ENTREPRENEURIAL AND PROVIDE
A SERVICE AND CHARGE MONEY
FOR IT AND THAT'S
WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
ONE WOULD THINK HARRIS
WOULD BE PRAISING THESE
YOUNG PEOPLE FOR THEIR
ENTREPRENEURIAL SPIRIT,
FOR THEIR HAVING EMBRACED
FREE ENTERPRISE.

The caption changes to "Michael Bryant, MPP. Liberal Attorney-General Critic." Michael is in his late thirties, clean-shaven with brown hair. He’s wearing a gray suit, light blue shirt and burgundy tie.

Michael says LOOK, THEY'RE PROBLEMS.
THE SQUEEGEE KIDS
IS A PROBLEM
ON THE STREETS
OF TORONTO.
THEY'RE STOPPING
TRAFFIC.
THERE IS AGGRESSIVE
BEHAVIOUR.
THERE'S NO
DOUBT ABOUT IT.
BUT THE EFFECTIVE WAY TO
DEAL WITH IT IS NOT SIMPLY
TO THROW A BUNCH OF
PEOPLE INTO OUR ALREADY
OVERBURDENED CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM.

Carlos says THEY MAY
DRESS IN A MANNER THAT'S NOT
A TYPICAL SUBURBAN HIGH
SCHOOL YOUTH BUT IF YOU
TALK TO THEM, BENEATH THAT
VERY, VERY THIN VENEER
IS JUST A REGULAR YOUNG PERSON
WHO WANTS TO HAVE A FUTURE,
WHO WANTS TO
BUILD ON - TO BE
SUCCESSFUL IN LIFE.

The clip ends.

Back in the studio, Steve says HERE TO DEBATE THE SQUEEGEE
KID QUESTION, STEVE GAETZ.
HE IS THE AUTHOR OF
AFOREMENTIONED STUDY
WHICH HE DID FOR
THE SHOUT CLINIC,
AND I'D BE GRATEFUL IF
YOU'D TELL US OFF THE TOP
WHAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT
WHAT YOU FOUND OUT?

The caption changes to "Steve Gaetz. Shout Clinic." Gaetz is in his mid-forties, with a beard and brown hair. He wears a black jacket over a gray shirt.

Gaetz says WELL, IN THIS STUDY WE
SURVEYED 360 STREET YOUTH
AND OUR INTENTION WAS TO
MAKE SENSE OF HOW STREET
YOUTH MAKE MONEY,
HOW THEY SURVIVE,
AND WHAT ARE THE BARRIERS
THAT PREVENT THEM
FROM MOVING INTO
REGULAR PAID WORK.
SOME OF THE SURPRISES
ARE THE - IN TERMS
OF THEIR BACKGROUND.
WE KNOW THAT STREET YOUTH
TEND TO COME FROM VERY
DIFFICULT BACKGROUNDS WHERE
THERE IS A HISTORY
OF ABUSE, WHERE THERE
ARE PROBLEMS IN SCHOOL,
THAT KIND OF THING.
OUR SURVEY PRODUCED RESULTS
THAT SHOWS THAT
IT'S EVEN WORSE
THAN WE THOUGHT.

Steve says WELL, MIND YOU, I ALSO
READ THAT A QUARTER OF
THE STREET KIDS COME FROM
FAMILIES WHERE BOTH PARENTS
HAVE A UNIVERSITY
EDUCATION.

Gaetz says THAT'S A SURPRISING
THING TOO.
PEOPLE OFTEN ASSUME THAT
THEY COME FROM IMPOVERISHED
BACKGROUNDS, BUT THEY COME
FROM EVERY BACKGROUND.
THEY COME FROM EVERY
NEIGHBOURHOOD.
THEY'RE NOT JUST
FROM ONE AREA,
BECAUSE THE CAUSES
OF HOMELESSNESS
AREN'T LOCATED WITHIN
ONE CLASS GROUP.

Steve says WELL, LET'S
HIT ON THAT.
ARE THESE SQUEEGEE KIDS
IN FACT HOMELESS PEOPLE?

Gaetz says THEY ARE.
THEY ABSOLUTELY ARE.

Steve says WHAT PERCENTAGE
DO YOU THINK?

Gaetz says IT WOULD BE WELL
OVER 95 PERCENT.
I'VE DONE
STREET OUTREACH.
I WORK WITH AGENCIES THAT
DO LOTS OF STREET OUTREACH.
I'VE BEEN INVOLVED
WITH SQUEEGEE KIDS.
I'VE NEVER SEEN THESE KIDS
WHO COME IN FROM OAKVILLE
ON THE WEEKEND TO SQUEEGEE
THAT THE PRESS TALKS ABOUT.
THAT'S ONE OF THOSE
URBAN MYTHS OR MAYBE
IT'S A SUBURBAN MYTH.

Steve says ARE YOU BLOWING OUT OF THE
WATER THEN THIS CERTAINLY
POPULARLY HELD VIEW THAT
THESE ARE SORT OF BORED
MIDDLE CLASS KIDS FROM
SORRY, MISSISSAUGA,
He turns to look at Richard and continues
WHO ARE COMING DOWNTOWN TO
SEE SOME OF THE ACTION?

Richard says MAC HAS
NEVER DONE SQUEEGEE.

[laughing]

Gaetz says WELL, MY GUESS IS THAT ON
OCCASION PEOPLE DO LEAVE
HOME - WE ALL KNOW THIS -
FOR THE BRIGHT LIGHTS
OF THE CITY OR TO ESCAPE
HORRIBLE THINGS LIKE
WASHING DISHES, BUT
LET ME TELL YOU,
IF YOU WERE TO SPEND ONE
NIGHT DOWNTOWN TORONTO
SLEEPING IN A PARK
WHEN IT'S COLD,
NOT GETTING ENOUGH TO EAT,
GETTING YOUR HEAD KICKED IN,
YOU KNOW WHAT, WASHING
THE DISHES WOULD START
TO LOOK PRETTY GOOD.

Steve says SO WHY DON'T THEY?

Gaetz says WELL BECAUSE THE STREETS
FOR A LOT OF THESE YOUTH
ARE SAFER THAN THE HOME.
IF THEY COME FROM A
HOUSEHOLD WHERE THERE'S
PHYSICAL OR SEXUAL
ABUSE, THERE'S A PROBLEM.
A LOT OF THESE KIDS ALSO -
AND THIS IS AN INTERESTING
THING IN THE STUDY, TOO;
OVER 40 PERCENT HAVE BEEN
THROUGH FOSTER CARE
AND GROUP HOMES.
SO A LOT OF THEM DON'T
HAVE HOMES OR FAMILIES
TO GO BACK TO.
SO IT'S NOT A CASE OF JUST
KIDS WHO ARE ORNERY
OR REBELLIOUS WINDING
UP IN THE STREETS,
YOU KNOW, IT ISN'T SO
EASY TO GO BACK HOME
FOR A LOT OF THEM.

Ruth says I JUST WANT TO
ASK A QUESTION.
SQUEEGEEING IS A FAIRLY
RECENT PHENOMENON,
THE LAST FOUR
OR FIVE YEARS.
WHAT DID THESE KIDS DO
BEFORE THEY GOT INTO
SQUEEGEEING, AND IF MIKE
HARRIS PERSUADES THEM
THAT THEY CAN NO
LONGER SQUEEGEE,
WHERE ARE THEY
GOING TO GO?

Gaetz says WELL, ONE THING WE
SHOW IN THE STUDY,
AND WE TRY TO MAKE SENSE
OF IS THOSE DIFFERENT
PATTERNS OF MAKING MONEY.
AND CERTAINLY WE SEE
MORE SQUEEGEE KIDS NOW,
WE'RE MORE AWARE OF THEM
BECAUSE OF THE WAY
THEY MAKE MONEY
IS IN OUR FACE.
IT'S IN OUR
WINDSHIELD, RIGHT?
IT'S POVERTY RIGHT IN OUR
FACE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE
ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH
POVERTY IN THEIR FACE.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE
PANHANDLING,
IT'S EASIER TO IGNORE.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE HUSTLING,
YOU KNOW, IN THE SEX TRADE,
WE DON'T ALWAYS SEE THAT.
MIGHT DRIVE BY AT
NIGHT OR WHATEVER,
BUT WE DON'T
TEND TO SEE THAT.
WHEN THEY'RE INVOLVED
IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, WE
DON'T ALWAYS SEE THAT.
A LOT OF THEIR
WORK IS INVISIBLE,
BUT WHEN IT'S IN
YOUR WINDSHIELD -
IT'S VERY VISIBLE.

Steve says I'VE GOT A
QUESTION FOR YOU.
YOU SAW PETER KORMOS IN THE
BACKGROUND PIECE SUGGEST
THAT SQUEEGEE KIDS, RATHER
THAN BEING UNDER ATTACK
BY THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT,
OUGHT TO BE PRAISED
BY THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT
BECAUSE THEY ARE IN FACT
THE ULTIMATE
ENTREPRENEURS.
THEY ARE IN THE
MIDST OF - YOU KNOW,
STEVE DESCRIBES THEM
A DISASTROUS PERSONAL
SITUATION AND YET THEY'RE
PICKING THEMSELVES UP
BY THEIR BOOTSTRAPS AND
GOING OUT AND TRYING
TO MAKE A LIVING.
HOW COME I HAVEN'T TALKED
TO A SINGLE CONSERVATIVE
SUPPORTER WHO
SEES IT THAT WAY.

Mac says WELL YOU WILL NOW.
He laughs and continues I'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO TURN
IN MY TORY MEMBERSHIP CARD
AFTER THIS, BUT I THINK -

Richard says IT'S ABOUT TIME, MAC.
ABOUT TIME.

Mac continues I THINK THAT SQUEEGEE KIDS,
WHILE THEY DO PRESENT SOME
PROBLEM TO A LIMITED NUMBER
OF PEOPLE AT A LIMITED
NUMBER OF INTERSECTION IN
ONE CITY IN THIS GREAT
PROVINCE OF OURS BECAME
SOMETHING OF A POLITICAL
TARGET OF OPPORTUNITY,
NOT ONLY FOR THE TORY PARTY
BUT FOR SOME CITY
POLITICIANS AND THERE
ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
DIFFERENT AXES TO GRIND.
THEY'RE GOING TO GRIND
THEM ON SQUEEGEE KIDS.
AND I WOULD HOPE THAT THE
GOVERNMENT WOULD TURN
ITS ATTENTION TO THE SYMPTOMS
NOT TO THE SYMPTOM
BUT TO THE CAUSE OF
THESE PROBLEMS.

Steve says THEY HAVEN'T
SAID THAT.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS
SAID, IT'S ONE
OF OUR TOP PRIORITIES TO
GET RID OF SQUEEGEE KIDS.

Richard says IT'S THE NUMBER ONE
PRIORITY OF THE LEGISLATIVE
ASSEMBLY THIS FALL.

Mac says PROBABLY THE EASIEST FIX
FOR THEM TO GO AFTER.
IT'S THE QUICKEST FIX.

Ruth says MAC, IT'S NOT
GOING TO BE FIX.
HOW CAN YOU LEGISLATE
AGAINST SQUEEGEEING?

Mac says THE TRAGEDY OF THIS WILL BE
IF THEY'RE DIVERTED OUT
OF SQUEEGEEING BACK INTO
THE SEX TRADE WHICH
THE GOVERNMENT ALSO SAYS IT
WANTS TO GET A HANDLE ON
IN TERMS OF YOUTH
SEX TRADE.
SO IF THE GOVERNMENT GOES
ABOUT TRYING TO SOLVE
WHAT I REGARD AS BEING A
NUISANCE AND NOT REALLY
A PROBLEM BY CREATING A FAR
MORE SERIOUS PROBLEM
THEN I THINK THE GOVERNMENT
IS DOING ITSELF AND
THE PEOPLE IT SERVES A
REAL DISSERVICE.

Richard says LET ME COMMEND MAC FOR HIS
GOOD JUDGMENT ON THIS.
I THINK THAT THERE IS A
REAL CONCERN AMONGST PEOPLE
ABOUT STREET VIOLENCE,
ABOUT STREET KIDS,
AND SO FORTH.
HARRIS IS CONSTANTLY
TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM
WITH KIDS TODAY, AND
AS STEVE POINTED OUT,
DEALING WITH THOSE ISSUES
AND THE ROOT CAUSE OF THOSE
ISSUES IS NOT AN EASY
TASK FOR ANY GOVERNMENT.
SO WHAT THE PREMIER HAS
DONE IS NOT ONLY CREATED
AN EASY POLITICAL TARGET,
AS MAC SUGGESTS,
BUT ALSO NEEDS TO BE
SEEN TO BE DOING
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
HE CAN'T ATTACK THE ROOT
SOCIAL CAUSES BECAUSE
THAT TAKES HARD WORK AND
IT TAKES INVESTMENT
AND IT TAKES MONEY.

Steve says AND
TAKES A LONG TIME.

Richard says IT TAKES A LONG
TIME, OVER YEARS.

Ruth says IT TAKES
IDEAS AND POLICY.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
BUT WHAT HE CAN DO IS
ATTACK THE SYMPTOM AND
FOR A LOT OF FOLKS COMING
IN FROM THE SUBURBS
AND GETTING OFF AN
INTERSECTION IN TORONTO,
AND SOME OF THEM PROBABLY
FEEL INTIMIDATED
AND SO FORTH.
I DON'T MEAN TO DIMINISH
THEIR FEELINGS ON THIS AT ALL.
THIS BECOMES YET ANOTHER
THING ON THE CHECKLIST
TO SAY WE'VE DONE
SOMETHING.
WE FIXED THAT.

Ruth says THE OTHER BIZARRE POLITICAL
ASPECT OF THIS IS,
IF ONE THING HARRIS
IS KNOWN FOR,
ONE OF THE MANY BAD THINGS,
IS HE'S NOT BEEN KIND
TO THE CITY OF TORONTO.

Richard says RIGHT.

Ruth continues AND SO HERE IS WHAT IS VERY
MUCH A DOWNTOWN CITY
OF TORONTO MANIFESTATION
AND LO AND BEHOLD
DEALING WITH IT IN THE BIZARRE
WAY IS THE CHIEF PRIORITY.
I MEAN, IT JUST DOESN'T
MAKE ANY POLITICAL SENSE.

Richard says IT'S THE NUMBER
ONE LEGISLATIVE PRIORITY,
THAT'S HOW
RIDICULOUS THIS IS.
WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT
THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS -
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DON'T
EVEN HAVE A FAMILY DOCTOR?
WHAT ABOUT THE FACT THAT
SCHOOLS ARE GOING
TO BE CLOSING?
THAT MIGHT BE A TOP
LEGISLATIVE PRIORITY.
WHAT ABOUT OUR ENVIRONMENT,
SECOND WORST RECORD
IN NORTH AMERICA?

Steve says OKAY, FAIR ENOUGH.

Gaetz says ALSO AN IMPORTANT POINT
HERE RELATED TO THIS,
WHAT ABOUT HOUSING?
HOUSING - THE
HOUSING STOCK,
LOW-RENT HOUSING IN TORONTO
IS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET,
AND THAT'S ONE OF THE
CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS
IN THIS CITY.

Steve says BUT YOU JUST PUT A FINGER
ON WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.
YOU SEE THIS AS A HOUSING,
HOMELESSNESS ISSUE.
THE GOVERNMENT SEES THIS
AS A LAW-AND-ORDER ISSUE.
THEY DON'T EVEN SEE IT
AS THE SAME PROBLEM.

Gaetz says THAT'S RIGHT AND ONE
REASON WHY WE WANT TO RELEASE
THIS REPORT NEXT
TUESDAY IS BECAUSE I THINK
THAT IN ORDER FOR ANY
GOVERNMENT TO MAKE GOOD
DECISIONS, THEY NEED
PROPER INFORMATION.
AND RATHER THAN JUST RELY
ON AMPLIFIED DEPICTIONS
OF STREET YOUTH AS BEING
SUBURBAN KIDS WHO ARE -
OR BRATS, OR WHATEVER,
LET'S GET THE REAL
INFORMATION OUT HERE.
LET'S TRY AND UNDERSTAND
HOW WE CAN GET THEM BACK
INTO WORK AND THAT'S
NOT AN EASY THING.

Steve says DO YOU THINK THEY'RE
INTERESTED IN GETTING
REAL JOBS?

Gaetz says ABSOLUTELY.
THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS
IN THE STUDY IS THAT
OVERWHELMINGLY THOSE WHO
SQUEEGEE AND ARE IN THE
SEX TRADE AND PANHANDLE
SAY THIS IS NOT
WHAT I WANT TO DO.
I DO WANT TO GET A JOB
AND IN FACT ON AVERAGE
IN OUR STUDY THEY'VE HAD AN
AVERAGE OF THREE DIFFERENT
JOBS IN THE PAST YEAR.
SO THEY ARE STRUGGLING TO
GET WORK BUT WHAT KEEPS THEM
FROM WORKING IS THINGS
LIKE HAVING A HOUSE
TO GO HOME TO.
BEING ABLE TO
KEEP CLEAN.
BEING ABLE TO KEEP
HEALTHY, RIGHT?
THE TYPE OF THINGS THAT
TYPICAL TEENAGERS
TAKE FOR GRANTED ARE
MISSING HERE.

Ruth says AGAIN, YOU'RE BACK TO THE
FACT THAT THIS GOVERNMENT'S
ALWAYS LOOKING
FOR SOMETHING,
A QUICK FIX AT THE
END OF THE PIPE,
AS OPPOSED TO THE
INVESTMENT IN EARLY
CHILDHOOD EDUCATION, IN
FAMILY SUPPORT SYSTEMS,
IN HELPING THOSE ON LOWER
INCOMES TO PREVENT THE
NEXT GENERATION OF SQUEEGEE
KIDS FROM COMING FORWARD,
LET ALONE DEALING WITH
THE PROBLEMS OF
THIS PARTICULAR
GENERATION.

Steve says THEY WOULD TELL YOU THAT
THEY HAVE MADE STRIDES -
I WOULDN'T SAY GREAT STRIDES,
BUT HAVE MADE STRIDES
TO ADDRESS SOME OF
THOSE QUESTIONS.
YOU'VE GOT A MINISTER
FOR CHILDREN.
YOU'VE GOT FRASER MUSTARD
DOING HIS WORK
ON EARLY CHILDHOOD
EDUCATION.

Ruth says FRASER MUSTARD DID HIS
WORK 10 YEARS AGO AND THEY
ABOLISHED MOST OF THE
PILOT PROJECTS THAT
HAD BEEN IN PLACE
BECAME GOVERNMENT.
NOW THEY'RE HAVING A SECOND
COMING ON EARLY CHILDHOOD,
BUT THEY'RE ALSO A PITTANCE
AS OPPOSED TO WHAT'S REALLY
NEEDED TO MAKE SURE THAT
EVERY KID IN THIS PROVINCE
HAS A SECURE PLACE TO LIVE,
A SECURE WAY OF EITHER
BEING EDUCATED OR HAVING A
JOB, AND A SUPPORT SYSTEM,
BECAUSE A JOB, A
HOUSE, AND A FRIEND
ARE WHAT KEEP YOU
HEALTHY.

Steve says RICHARD.

Richard says I WOULD THINK THAT
MOST SQUEEGEE KIDS
DO WANT TO FIND A JOB.
WE MAY NOT LIKE THE
ACTIVITY THAT
THEY'RE ENGAGING IN.
PEOPLE MAY FEEL
THREATENED BY IT,
BUT IN FACT THEY ARE
ACTUALLY TRYING
TO OBTAIN SOME LIVING.
I THINK THIS IS ONE
OF THOSE ISSUES THAT IS
A BIT EMBARRASSING
TO THOSE OF US
WHO ARE INVOLVED
IN POLITICS.
THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY
COULD LOOK IN THE CAMERA
WITH A STRAIGHT FACE
AND SAY THIS IS
OUR TOP PRIORITY.
I MEAN PEOPLE AT
HOME THINK THAT WE
IN THE POLITICAL CLASS
HAVE OUR PRIORITIES WRONG.
HERE IS CASE IN
POINT, NUMBER ONE.

Steve says EXCEPT THAT ON
THE OTHER HAND,
AND WE'VE HEARD THE
ARGUMENTS AT THE TABLE
HERE TODAY: THERE ARE
ISSUES OF HOMELESSNESS.
THERE ARE ISSUES OF THEM
WANTING TO GET JOBS
AND CAN'T GET JOBS.
THERE ARE ISSUES OF THEM
BEING ABUSED WHEN
THEY WERE STILL LIVING
IN THEIR HOMES.
HAVING SAID ALL THAT, YOU
KNOW THERE IS A PALPABLE FEAR,
MOSTLY BY WOMEN THAT
I'VE TALKED TO WHO FEEL
VERY THREATENED WHEN THEY
STOP AT AN INTERSECTION.

Mac says I DON'T THINK THAT ANYONE
WANTS TO MINIMIZE THE FACT
THAT THESE PEOPLE CAN
EITHER BE - SQUEEGEE KIDS
CAN SOMETIMES BEHAVE IN
A THREATENING MANNER
AND THEY CAN MAKE
SOME PEOPLE FEEL
EXTREMELY UNCOMFORTABLE.
AND I THINK THAT THERE
ARE WAYS OF DEALING
WITH THAT ALREADY.
I THINK THERE ARE
LAWS IN PLACE TO DEAL
WITH THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR
CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS.

Ruth says NOBODY SHOULD
BE HARASSED.

Mac says NO ONE SHOULD BE HARASSED
AND IF THE POLICE COULD
HAVE ENFORCEMENT AT THOSE
TROUBLE INTERSECTIONS
AND THEY WHO THEY ARE AND THEY
KNOW WHO THESE KIDS
ARE AND THEY KNOW WHERE
THOSE INTERSECTIONS ARE.

Richard says BUT
YOU'VE GOT LAWS IN PLACE
RIGHT NOW IF IT'S
TRULY HARASSMENT.

Mac says WE HAVE LOTS OF LAWS
IN PLACE TO DO THAT.

Gaetz says DO YOU KNOW WHO ABSOLUTELY
AGREES WITH YOU ARE
SQUEEGEE KIDS AND I'VE
HEARD THIS MYSELF AND
ANYBODY WORKING WITH THEM
WILL SAY THE SAME THING.
THEY KNOW THAT THERE ARE
SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE
WHO ARE HARASSING
DRIVERS AND THAT,
AND THEY SAY - THEY TALK
ABOUT IT IN BUSINESS TERMS.
THEY SAY IT'S BAD
FOR BUSINESS, RIGHT?
THEY WOULD LIKE SOMETHING
DONE AND IN TERMS
OF SAY LICENSING -

Mac says FOR ENFORCEMENT, IF THERE
ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO
ARE THREATENING AND WHO ARE
ABUSING PROPERTY OR ABUSING
INDIVIDUALS, THEN THEY
SHOULD BE DEALT WITH.
BUT I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO
HAVE A BRAND NEW CAMPAIGN.
WHEN YOU HAVE A ZERO TOLERANCE
ENFORCEMENT CAMPAIGN
TARGETED AT SPECIFIC
INTERSECTIONS,
SPECIFIC TIMES, CLEAN IT
UP AND GET ON WITH IT.

Gaetz says BUT GET AT THE PEOPLE WHO
ARE CAUSING THE PROBLEMS.
DON'T BLAME EVERY SQUEEGEE
KID AND CERTAINLY DON'T
BLAME EVERY STREET YOUTH,
AND PANHANDLERS
ARE INVOLVED IN
THIS, AS WELL.

Steve says BUT IF THIS IS A LAW AND
ORDER ISSUE - LET'S AGREE
IT'S A HOMELESSNESS ISSUE,
BUT LET'S ALSO AGREE THAT
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IT'S
A LAW-AND-ORDER ISSUE.
IF IT IS, DON'T YOU KIND
OF HAVE TO TAKE THE
He air quotes and says BROKEN
WINDOW APPROACH TO THIS,
WHICH IS THAT IF WE ALLOW
A LOT OF BROKEN WINDOWS TO
REMAIN ONCE THEY'VE BEEN
VANDALIZED, YOU GIVE
VANDALS THE SENSE THAT
THIS CITY IS THEIRS
RATHER THAN THE GOOD
OLD-FASHIONED MIDDLE
CLASS PERSON'S.
AND IF SQUEEGEE KIDS ARE A
TINY LAW AND ORDER PROBLEM,
BUT A PROBLEM NONETHELESS,
DON'T YOU HAVE TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

Mac says WELL, LET'S
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Ruth says HOW BIG
A PROBLEM ARE THEY?
LET'S FIND OUT HOW MANY
OF THEM - I THINK
IT'S A VERY SMALL
PERCENTAGE.
I TEND NOT TO WANT
MY WINDOW WASHED.
I DRIVE AROUND
THE CITY A LOT.
I SMILE AND I
SAY, NO THANK YOU.

Steve says AND DO
THEY DO IT ANYWAY?

Ruth says ALL BUT ONE PER CENT
OF THE CASES I GET
A SMILE BACK,
YOU KNOW?
SOME PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY
ARE BEING HARASSED.
LET'S ANALYZE AND GET THE
FACTS ON THAT INSTEAD
OF USING THIS GREAT
BIG SLEDGE HAMMER.

Gaetz says SQUEEGEE KIDS HAVE
PROPOSED, FOR INSTANCE,
LICENSING IT, RIGHT?
AND THAT WAY YOU'D
HAVE SOME CONTROL.

Mac says OH,
THAT'S RED TAPE.
WE DON'T LIKE
THAT EITHER.

[laughing]

Richard says THIS
IS A FREE MARKET THING.

Gaetz says THEY'RE COMING UP WITH
SOLUTIONS, RIGHT,

Richard says AND THEY
SHOULD BE COMMENDED FOR THAT.

Steve says OKAY, I HAVE
LITERALLY 20 SECONDS
TO DO TWO THINGS HERE.
NUMBER ONE, THANK YOU,
STEVE GAETZ, FOR COMING IN
AND SHARING THE RESULTS
OF YOUR SHOUT REPORT.
WE APPRECIATE IT
VERY MUCH.
AND NUMBER TWO, I REALLY
WANT TO THANK YOU,
MAC, FOR BEING
HERE TODAY.
WE MISSED YOU
LAST WEEK.
YOU ARE - WELL
LET'S JUST SAY,
YOU'RE IN PAIN RIGHT NOW
BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING IN FOR
A BACK OPERATION TOMORROW
AND WE'RE GRATEFUL THAT
YOU COULD BE HERE FOR US
TONIGHT AND WISH YOU VERY
WELL WITH YOUR OPERATION,
A VERY SPEEDY RECOVERY.

Mac says THANK YOU.
I DID IT FOR
STEVE GILCHRIST.

Richard says WATCH YOUR BACK, MAC.

[laughing]

Steve says OKAY, TO THE TWO OF YOU,
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK AND
GOOD LUCK, AGAIN, MAC.
AND THAT'S 4TH READING, OUR
WEEKLY LOOK AT PROVINCIAL
AFFAIRS FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN,
SEE YOU NEXT WEEKEND.

(music plays)

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Bret Ballah.

Editor, Paul Colbourne.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1999, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #171 "Steve Gilchrist"