Transcript: Show #168 "Buzz Off" | Sep 26, 1999

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a gavel banging against a desk, and MPPs voting in the Legislature.

Steve says THIS WEEK
ON 4th READING...
THE BUZZ FACTOR.
THE NDP DEBATES WHETHER
TO KICK THE C.A.W. LEADER
OUT OF THE PARTY.

Steve and the panelists sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a deep blue suit over a black shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY, I'M STEVE
PAIKIN, AND WELCOME TO
THIS WEEK'S EDITION
OF 4th READING.
TO HIS ADMIRERS, HE'S THE
HERO BEHIND GROUND-BREAKING
LABOUR AGREEMENTS SUCH AS
THE SETTLEMENT WITH THE
FORD MOTOR COMPANY
EARLIER THIS WEEK.
TO HIS CRITICS, HE'S A TRAITOR
TO HIS POLITICAL PARTY.
AS PESKY AS A MOSQUITO THAT
JUST WON'T GET OUT OF YOUR EAR.
HE IS BUZZ HARGROVE, HEAD OF
THE CANADIAN AUTOWORKERS.

Buzz appears on screen. He is in his late fifties. He is balding in the front and has short grey hair on the temples. He’s clean-shaven and wears glasses, a dark grey suit over a striped grey Polo shirt.

Steve continues
THIS SUMMER, HARGROVE
THREATENED TO PULL HIS UNION
OUT OF THE FEDERAL NDP.
HE SAID IT WASN'T
LEFT WING ENOUGH.
THAT, JUST MONTHS AFTER HE
URGED PEOPLE TO VOTE LIBERAL
IF THAT WOULD HELP
DEFEAT MIKE HARRIS.
THIS WEEKEND, NDP
APPARATCHIKS, YES, MURRAY,
YOU AN APPARATCHIK, SUCH
AS MURRAY WEPPLER, ARE
DEBATING WILL TO THROW BUZZ
RIGHT OUT OF THE PARTY.

Murray appears next. He’s in his fifties. He has short white hair and a moustache. He wears a tartan grey suit over a grey shirt.

A clip plays. A crowd cheers with banners that read "Hampton." The images show a political act where Hampton, dressed in a dark suit, addresses the cheerful crowd.

Steve says THE LAST TIME THE NDP HELD
A PROVINCIAL COUNCIL IT WAS
AN UPBEAT AFFAIR.
THE PARTY LAUNCHED ITS
PLATFORM AND HELD A FINAL
RALLY BEFORE THE
JUNE ELECTION.
WHEN THE PROVINCIAL COUNCIL
MEETS AGAIN THIS WEEKEND,
IT PROMISES TO BE
A DIFFERENT STORY.
AFTER ALL, THE NDP
WON ONLY NINE SEATS
IN THE LAST ELECTION.
LONG TIME NDP INSIDER,
MURRAY WEPPLER, SAYS BUZZ
HARGROVE HAS STALLED THE
PARTY'S MODERNIZATION
FOR FIVE YEARS.

Next, Murray appears watering the plants in a small garden.

Murray says I THINK MISTER HARGROVE HAS
DELIBERATELY SET OUT TO
EMBARRASS THE PARTY, TO
CHALLENGE THE PARTY AT EVERY
TURN, PARTICULARLY IN THE
LAST PROVINCIAL ELECTION.
IT'S DESTRUCTIVE, IT'S
DELIBERATE, IT'S CONSCIOUS.
THIS IS NOT A NEOPHYTE,
WHICH IS NOT AN INNOCENT
NEW MEMBER OF THE PARTY.
THIS IS THE MOST PROMINENT
LABOUR LEADER IN ONTARIO,
AND IF NOT CANADA.

Steve says WEPPLER IS CALLING
FOR THE EXPULSION OF THE
CANADIAN AUTO WORKERS'
LEADER FOR HIS ACTIONS IN
THE LAST ELECTION.
HARGROVE WAS AN ADVOCATE OF
SO-CALLED STRATEGIC VOTING.

A caption reads "Buzz Hargrove. Canadian Auto Workers." In the clip, Buzz appears talking to an audience at a conference.

He says THE ONLY WAY THIS GOVERNMENT
CAN BE DEFEATED IS MOVING
TO VOTE AGAINST THE TORIES,
AS OPPOSED TO VOTING FOR
OUR TRADITIONAL ALLY, THE
NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THEN
BY GOD, I BELIEVE THAT
EVERY ONE OF US HAS AN
OBLIGATION TO DO THAT,
AND TALK TO OUR FRIENDS,
NEIGHBOURS, AND CO-WORKERS,
ABOUT DOING IT WELL.

Steve says THE RESULT, THOUSANDS
OF ONTARIANS THOUGHT
STRATEGIC VOTING
MEANT VOTE LIBERAL.
THE NDP VOTE PLUMMETED.

The caption changes to "Howard Hampton. NDP Leader." He’s in his forties. He has short blond hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a blue shirt.

He talks to the press.

Howard says MISTER HARGROVE, I THINK, HAS
TO DECIDE, IS HE A LIBERAL,
OR IS HE A NEW DEMOCRAT.

Steve says THE ISSUE CAME TO A
HEAD LAST JUNE WHEN HAMPTON
AND HARGROVE HAD A PUBLIC
SPAT OVER THE NDP LEADER'S
UNWILLINGNESS TO SPEAK AT AN
AUTO WORKERS' CONVENTION.

Buzz says I THINK THAT'S
A MAJOR MISTAKE.
IT'S A LACK OF SENSE OF THE
IMPORTANCE OF DOING THAT
AND THE LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING OF HOW
CRITICAL THE SITUATION
IS WITH OUR PARTY.
WE ARE IN CRISIS.

Howard says IT'S EVEN BEYOND THEATRE
OF THE ABSURD FOR ME TO BE
SHARING THE PODIUM WITH
SOMEONE WHO SPENT THE BETTER
PART OF THE LAST TWO YEARS
TRASHING ME AND TRASHING
THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

Steve says BUT OTHERS CONTEND
THE PARTY CAN ILL AFFORD TO
LOSE THE BACKING OF ONE
OF THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST
UNIONS, SAYING THE AUTO
WORKERS PROVIDE MONEY
AND WORKERS TO THE NDP.

The caption changes to "Sid Ryan. Canadian Union of Public Employees." He’s in his mid-forties. He has short straight blond hair and a full beard. He wears a white suit over a black shirt.

Sid says YOU CANNOT TAKE A MAJOR
UNION LEADER LIKE BUZZ
HARGROVE, WHOSE UNION
HAS BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN
BUILDING THE NDP, AND THEN
BECAUSE OF A POLICY, WE'RE
NOW GOING TO KICK THE
LEADER, AND BY EXTENSION
HIS MEMBERS,
OUT OF THE NDP.
IT'S SHEER MADNESS.
WE'RE AT 9 PERCENT
IN THE POLLS.
WE'LL BE AT 2 PERCENT IN
THE POLLS IF THAT HAPPENS.

The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

He says WELL, IS IT TIME FOR BUZZ
HARGROVE AND THE NDP
TO PART WAYS?
LET'S FIND OUT.
BUZZ IS HERE, AS IS THE MAN
LEADING THE FIGHT TO KICK
HIM OUT OF THE ONTARIO NEW
DEMOCRATS, MURRAY WEPPLER
BESIDE HIM.
THANKS FOR THE TWO OF
YOU FOR BEING HERE.
AND OUR QUEEN'S PARK
PANELISTS ARE HERE THIS
WEEK AS WELL.
HERE ARE RICHARD MAHONEY,
A PAST PRESIDENT OF THE
ONTARIO LIBERALS.

Richard is in his late forties. He has short curly grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, blue shirt and contrasting patterned yellow tie.

Steve continues
HE'S WITH THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM, FRASER MILNER.
MAC PENNEY FROM GPC,
GOVERNMENT POLICY
CONSULTANTS, LOOKING
DECIDEDLY UNTORY TODAY IN
HIS, WHAT COLOUR IS THAT?

Mac appears next. He’s in his fifties. He has short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit over a dark orange turtleneck.

Mac says IT'S ORANGE.
I FIGURED THERE WERE
SO MANY NEW DEMOCRATS
ON THE PANEL TODAY.

Steve says THERE YOU GO.
YOU'RE JUST
STRAIGHTENING IT OUT.
AND THIS WEEK, JORDAN
BERGER IS HERE.
JORDAN SITS ON THE
NDP EXECUTIVE THAT IS
CONSIDERING BUZZ HARGROVE'S
FATE THIS WEEKEND.

Jordan appears next. He’s in his mid-thirties. He has short dark hair and a goatee. He wears black rimmed glasses and a dark suit over a deep grey shirt and a matching tie.

Steve says BUZZ, HOW LONG YOU BEEN
A MEMBER OF THE NDP?

Buzz says SINCE 1966.

Steve says DO YOU STILL
SUPPORT THE PARTY?

Buzz says YES.
I PROBABLY PUT MORE MONEY IN
THAN MURRAY DOES, BY THE WAY.
I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE,
BUT THE LAST RECORDS I
LOOKED AT, I PUT IN MORE THAN
MOST, INCLUDING THE LEADER.

Steve says DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF
A LOYAL NEW DEMOCRAT?

Buzz says YES.

Steve says DO YOU WANT
TO LEAVE THE PARTY?

Buzz says NO.

Steve says MURRAY, WHY DO YOU
WANT TO THROW HIM OUT?

The caption changes to "Murray Weppler. Ontario NDP Activist."

Murray says WELL, I THINK HE'S
DEMONSTRATED IN THE
INTRODUCTION THE FIRST
REASON, BUT MY MAIN CONCERN
IS BUZZ HAS BEEN FOR FIVE
YEARS DISAGREEING WITH THE
PARTY IN MAJOR WAYS, PUBLIC
WAYS, ATTACKING THE PARTY,
VILIFYING ITS LEADERS.

Buzz says NEVER ONCE DID ANYONE
EVER HEAR ME VILIFY OR SAY
ANYTHING ABOUT THE LEADER.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

Murray continues
THERE HAVE BEEN VERY,
VERY NASTY THINGS SAID
ABOUT OUR LEADERS.
BUT LET ME FINISH.
I THINK THE KEY REASON THAT
BUZZ SHOULD TAKE HIS OWN
ADVICE, AND THAT IS THAT
HE'S BEEN TALKING ABOUT
SETTING UP HIS OWN
ORGANIZATION, OR HIS OWN
PARTY, AND I WOULD HOPE HE
WOULD HAVE THE COURAGE OF
HIS CONVICTION TO DO THAT.
SAM GINDIN, PROBABLY THE
MOST IMPORTANT ADVISOR IN
THE CAW HAS WRITTEN AS
RECENTLY AS NOVEMBER 1998,
THAT THIS IS WHAT THE
UNION SHOULD BE DOING.

Steve says HAS THE NDP LEFT YOU, OR
ARE YOU LEAVING THE NDP?
HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

Buzz says THE NDP HAS LEFT A LOT OF
PEOPLE BY MOVING TO THE RIGHT.
AND IT'S NOT JUST BUZZ
HARGROVE THAT'S DISAPPOINTED
AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE
DIRECTION OF THE PARTY AND
RAISING ISSUES.
BUT I THINK THE REAL
QUESTION HERE IS HOW DO
WE GET BACK TO
REBUILDING OUR PARTY?
AND YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH
WHAT MURRAY AND OTHERS ARE
DOING BY TRYING TO DIVERT
ATTENTION ABOUT WHY PEOPLE
ARE LEAVING OUR PARTY
IN DROVES BY SAYING
BUZZ HARGROVE'S
RESPONSIBLE.
IF I HAD THAT MUCH POWER,
I'D BRING A LOT OF PEOPLE
INTO THE PARTY.
THE PARTY HAS A ROLE TO
PLAY IN BUILDING A BASE AND
IDENTIFYING A CONSTITUENCY
AND GOING AFTER IT.
THEY'VE TRIED TO BE
EVERYTHING TO EVERYBODY.
THERE'S THIS IDEA SOMEHOW WE
CAN BE A MIDDLE OF THE ROAD
PARTY, MUCH LIKE
THE LIBERALS.
AND WE CAN DISPLACE THE
LIBERALS AS THE NEXT LIBERAL
PARTY OF CANADA.

Steve says WHERE'S THE
RIGHT WING AGENDA?
GIVE ME A SPECIFIC ABOUT THE
RIGHT WING AGENDA YOU SAY
THEY'RE PURSUING, OR THEIR
MOVE CLOSER TO THE RIGHT.


The caption changes to "Buzz Hargrove. C.A.W."

Buzz says THEY'RE MOVING CLOSER TO THE
RIGHT BY THIS SUMMER, ALEXA
MCDONOUGH CALLED FOR US TO
REACH OUT TO BUSINESSES,
AND NEW CONSTITUENCY, TO
BRING THEM INTO OUR PARTY.
BUSINESS ALREADY HAS THE
LIBERALS, THE TORIES,
THEY'RE WELL REPRESENTED
HERE ON THIS PANEL TODAY,
AND I HAVE NO
PROBLEM WITH THAT.
AND THEY HAVE THE REFORM
PARTY THAT'S NOT REPRESENTED.
WHAT'S NEEDED IN THIS
COUNTRY IS A VOICE FOR THE
UNDERPRIVILEGED IN OUR
SOCIETY AND FOR WORKING PEOPLE.
CANADIANS WHO ARE STRUGGLING
IN UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS
ACROSS OUR COUNTRY.
ONE RECENT EXAMPLE IS EATONS,
A COLLAPSE OF EATONS.
WHERE'S OUR PARTY OUT SAYING
EATONS ARE WALKING AWAY
WITH MILLIONS AND MILLIONS
OF DOLLARS IN WEALTH.
WORKERS ARE WALKING AWAY
LOSING THEIR LONG-TERM
DISABILITY BENEFITS, THEIR
HEALTHCARE BENEFITS, THEIR
SEVERANCE PAY, THEIR VACATION
PAY, ALL OF THESE THINGS.
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT NEED
A VOICE TODAY, NOT BUSINESS.

Steve says LET ME GIVE JORDAN
A VOICE FOR A SECOND.
JORDAN, YOU'RE GOING TO THIS
THING ON THE WEEKEND, RIGHT?

Jordan says YES, I AM.

Steve says HOW ARE YOU
GOING TO VOTE?

The caption changes to "Jordan Berger. NDP Executive."

He says I DON'T SUPPORT EXPULSION,
BUT I DO SUPPORT A STRONG
MOTION OF CENSURE AGAINST BUZZ
HARGROVE FOR HIS ACTIVITIES.
MY MAIN PROBLEM WITH HIS
POSITION IS NOT THAT HE HAS
CONCERNS ABOUT THE FUTURE OF
THE PARTY, BUT THE WAY IN
WHICH HE GOES ABOUT
PURSUING THEM.
MY MOTHER IS CONCERNED
ABOUT THE RIGHT WING SHIFT
IN THE PARTY.
WHAT SHE DOESN'T DO IS CALL
A PRESS CONFERENCE TO TALK
TO ANY AVAILABLE MEDIA.
HE HAS BECOME A
TOUCHSTONE FOR THE MEDIA.
I THINK, BUZZ, YOU REALIZE
THE POWER YOU HAVE, AND YOU'VE
USED IT CONSTANTLY AND
CONTINUALLY FOR YEARS
TO ATTACK THE PARTY.
EVERY TIME THE CAW AND THE
NDP COME UP IN THE SAME
ARTICLE, THERE'S A
NEGATIVE COMMENT.
AND I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR
TO THE CAW ACTIVISTS THAT
WORK SO HARD TO GET OUR
CANDIDATES ELECTED.
I JUST DON'T
THINK IT'S FAIR.
I THINK YOU'RE ABUSING
YOUR ACCESS TO THE MEDIA
TO HURT THE PARTY.

Buzz says I DON'T THINK IT HELPS.
FIRSTLY, THIS WASN'T
A MEDIA CONFERENCE,
IT WAS A CONVENTION.
WE'RE AN OPEN ORGANIZATION
LIKE A POLITICAL PARTY,
WE'RE AN ORGANIZATION OF
HUMAN BEINGS WHO HAVE
MEMBERS WHO PAY DUES THAT
ARE ENTITLED TO KNOW WHAT
OUR DEBATES ARE.
AND WE'RE NOT GOING
TO CHANGE THAT.
IF THAT MEANS WE AIR SOME
OF OUR LAUNDRY IN PUBLIC,
SO BE IT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN
AROUND OUR PARTY FOR
A LONG WHILE, JORDAN.
I REMEMBER THE DEBATES, I
REMEMBER TOMMY DOUGLAS, I
REMEMBER DAVE BARRETT AND
GRANT, SO MANY PEOPLE WHO
STOOD UP AND CHALLENGED OUR
PARTY ON SO MANY ISSUES.
AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
US AND THE OTHER PARTIES,
WE USED TO BRAG ABOUT IT.
WE TALK ABOUT THESE
ISSUES OPENLY.
WE INVITE PEOPLE IN TO
LOOK AT WHAT WE'RE DOING.
WE DON'T TRY TO HIDE
THE FACT THAT THERE ARE
DIFFERENCES IN
OUR PARTY, MURRAY.

Murray says THAT'S PRECISELY
THE POINT THAT I THINK YOU
SHOULD BE ORGANIZING
YOUR OWN PARTY.
IN THE PAST, AND I JOINED
THE PARTY, THE NEW PARTY,
THE YEAR IT WAS FORMED IN
FORT WILLIAM AND WORKED
WITH A CAW PRESIDENT
IN THAT LOCAL TO RUN A
CAMPAIGN IN 1962.
I GREW UP IN SASKATCHEWAN.
I KNOW SOMETHING
ABOUT THE PARTY.
THE METHOD IN WHICH WE
DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER IS
AT CONVENTION AND COUNCIL.
AND ONCE A COLLECTIVE
DECISION IS MADE, A POLICY
DRAFTED, WE THEN
STICK TOGETHER.

Steve says YOU GO FORWARD.

Buzz says THE DECISION TO REACH
OUT TO BUSINESS IN OUR
PARTY WAS MADE BY A SMALL
GROUP OF PEOPLE ON A TRAIN
GOING ACROSS THE
COUNTRY, MURRAY.
THERE WAS NO MEETING
OF THE COUNCIL.

Jordan says AND THAT'S WHEN
WE DEBATED AT CONVENTION.
THE POINT IS YOU CAN'T HOLD
A PRESS SCRUM IN THE MIDDLE
OF ALEXA MCDONOUGH'S SPEECH.

Steve says I KNOW THIS IS A
BATTLE WITHIN THE NDP
FAMILY, BUT WE ACTUALLY
GOT A COUPLE OF THE OTHER
PARTIES REPRESENTED HERE
TODAY, WHO HAVE BEEN QUIET
FOR LONGER THAN I EVER
REMEMBER THEM BEING QUIET
FOR ON A SHOW.
OKAY, RICHARD,
YOU WANT IN HERE.
GO AHEAD.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Steve continues
GIVEN THAT BUILD-UP,
YOU BETTER SAY SOMETHING GOOD.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
IT STRIKES ME IT'S A BIT
OF A STRANGE THING TO BE
LOOKING FROM THE OUTSIDE
AT A MOTION TO KICK A VERY
PROMINENT MEMBER, BUT A
MEMBER OF THE PARTY WHO
WANTS TO REMAIN A MEMBER
OF THE PARTY OUT OF IT.
IT SEEMS TO ME THIS DEBATE
HAS BEEN DEFINED BY A WHOLE
BUNCH OF PEOPLE.
BY BUZZ HARGROVE, FOR SURE,
BY BOB RAE ON THE OTHER
SIDE, AND BY HOWARD
HAMPTON, AND PRESUMABLY
TODAY BY MURRAY AND JORDAN.
THE NDP HAS A
CHOICE TO MAKE.
IT'S EARLY DAYS
AFTER AN ELECTION.
YOU GUYS HAVE GOT ALL
SORTS OF ISSUES YOU'VE GOT
TO FLUSH THROUGH.
I DON'T PRESUME TO
GIVE YOU ADVICE ON IT.
BUT, OBVIOUSLY, THE CHOICE IN
FRONT OF YOU IS WHETHER OR
NOT TO RETURN TO YOUR
ROOTS, AND THE BUZZ
HARGROVE ARGUMENT OF A MORE
LABOUR-BASED POLITICAL
PARTY, OR WHETHER TO GO BOB
RAE NEW LABOUR...

Steve says TONY BLAIR,
THIRD WAY.

Richard continues
TONY BLAIR, THIRD WAY,
ROY ROMANOW, WHATEVER.
AND THIS IS A DEBATE I
SUSPECT YOU WON'T SOLVE
THIS WEEKEND.

Murray says BUT WE SHOULD
HAVE THAT DEBATE.

Richard says ABSOLUTELY.
WHY NOT LET BUZZ
HARGROVE, WHO SEEMS TO BE A
PRETTY PROMINENT VOICE IN YOUR
PARTY BE PART OF THAT DEBATE?

Buzz says WE TRIED TO
HAVE THE DEBATE AT
THE FEDERAL CONVENTION.
AND THE CHAIR CUT OFF THE
DEBATE AFTER TWO SPEAKERS.
WE HAD TO HAVE A FLOOR FIGHT
TO GET A COUPLE MORE, WE
HAD FOUR SPEAKERS ON ONE OF
THE MOST PROMINENT ISSUES
FACING OUR PARTY ABOUT THE
FUTURE DIRECTION OF THE PARTY.
THERE'S NO ROOM FOR DEBATE.

Steve says OKAY, SO LET'S
HAVE THE DEBATE.
MURRAY, YOU BELIEVE IT'S
TIME FOR THE NDP TO
DECOUPLE FROM LABOUR.

Murray says NO, I THINK...
CERTAINLY
APPEARS THAT WAY.
MISTER HARGROVE HAS, IN
FACT, STARTED THAT PROCESS
IN HIS UNION.
I AGREE WITH IT.
I THINK THE MARRIAGE HAS BEEN
ROCKY SINCE THE BEGINNING.
SOME WOULD ARGUE IT'S NEVER
BEEN FULLY CONSUMMATED.
BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THE
PARTY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND
SHOULD DEAL WITH.
I HAPPEN TO THINK THERE
IS A WAY THAT THE PARTY IN
ONTARIO CAN REGAIN ITS
CREDIBILITY, AND THE BEST
MODEL I KNOW IS GARY DOER'S
VICTORY IN MANITOBA.
AND IT WAS, I SUSPECT,
SOMETHING MISTER HARGROVE
WOULD DISAGREE WITH.
HE RAN ON SUPPORTING
BALANCED BUDGET LEGISLATION.

Steve says DID YOU SEE THE CARTOON ON
THE NATIONAL POST
ON THURSDAY?

Murray says I DON'T READ
THE NATIONAL POST.

Steve explains
HANG ON, LET ME TELL YOU,
IT WAS LIKE A CHART ON
A FOOTBALL GAME.
X'S AND O'S, LOOKED
LIKE A FOOTBALL CHART.
HAD AN ARROW GOING THIS WAY,
SAID FAKE LEFT, ARROW GOING
THIS WAY, SAID GO RIGHT.
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE
TALKING ABOUT?

Murray says IF WE'RE GOING TO USE
THESE SORT OF TERMS,
LET'S BE VERY PRECISE.
THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM
HAS MOVED TO THE RIGHT.
WE CANNOT DENY THAT.
EVERYBODY HAS
MOVED TO THE RIGHT.
WHAT THE NDP CAN
BE ACCUSED OF...

Buzz says EXCEPT THE PEOPLE.

Murray continues
I'M SORRY, IF YOU LOOK
AT THE RECENT ELECTIONS,
THEY'RE DEMANDING BALANCED
BUDGETS, LOWER TAXES.
THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT
THE REFORM PARTY RAN ON.
THEY CALL IT THE
SASKATCHEWAN PARTY IN
SASKATCHEWAN, BUT
IT'S THE REFORM PARTY.

Buzz says THEY WENT AND VOTED FOR A
PARTY THAT WAS A NON-PARTY
UNTIL A FEW MONTHS AGO.

Murray says THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT
THAT'S THE THIRD TERM FOR A
GOVERNMENT, AND THAT'S AN
ACCOMPLISHMENT FEW PEOPLE
MASTER IN THIS COUNTRY.
MY POINT IS VERY SERIOUS.
WE ARE MOVING TO THE CENTRE.
AND I DON'T
THINK THAT'S BAD.
IF THAT'S WHERE THE MAJORITY
OF PEOPLE ARE, THEN WE HAVE
A RESPONSIBILITY OF A
POLITICAL PARTY TO AT LEAST
BE RELEVANT TO PEOPLE.

Richard says I HAPPEN TO
AGREE WITH YOUR PROGNOSIS.

Steve says ONE AT A TIME.
HANG ON, MAC.

Buzz says IF TOMMY DOUGLAS WOULD
HAVE MOVED TO THE CENTRE
WHEN THEY HAD THE DEBATE IN
SASKATCHEWAN ABOUT MEDICARE,
WE WOULDN'T HAVE
HAD MEDICARE.
HE KNEW HE HAD TO CHALLENGE
THE STATUS QUO, TO
CHALLENGE PEOPLE, TO
CHALLENGE THE DOCTORS, TO
CHALLENGE THE AMERICAN
MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, THE
CANADIAN MEDICAL
ASSOCIATION.
HE MADE A CHOICE TO
STAND UP FOR PEOPLE.

Jordan says HE ALSO PASSED BALANCED
BUDGETS, YEAR AFTER
YEAR AFTER YEAR.

Buzz says THAT'S NOT
THE ARGUMENT.
YOU VOTED AGAINST OUR
PAPER AT CONVENTION.

Steve says OKAY, MAC NEEDS IN.
GUYS, GUYS.
MAC PENNEY
HAS THE FLOOR.

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

Mac says I THINK YOUR PROBLEM'S
JUST A BIT BIGGER THAN JUST
THE PERSONALITIES INVOLVED,
THE BUZZINATOR VERSUS MURRAY,
OR WHATEVER.
I THINK IT'S REALLY A KIND
OF PARADOX OF POLITICAL
PARTIES IN THE
LATE 20th CENTURY.
I MEAN ABOUT A CENTURY AGO,
BENJAMIN DISRAELI, IF HE
WAS SITTING HERE, HE'D LOOK
AT BUZZ AND SAY, DAMN YOUR
PRINCIPLES, MAN,
STAND BY YOUR PARTY.
SO WHEN A PARTY CAME TO A
CONSENSUS, BUT DOES THAT
SELL WITH THE
VOTING PUBLIC?
AND THE PROBLEM IS NOW
WHETHER YOU'RE A GARY DOER,
OR WHETHER YOU'RE
ROY ROMANOW, OR WHETHER
YOU'RE CLARK, THE LEFT IN
CANADA SEEMS TO HAVE THE
SAME PROBLEM.
WHICH IS THE RELEVANCE OF
THE MESSAGE IN THE LATE
20th CENTURY.
I THINK IF BUZZ IS SAYING GO
BACK TO LABOUR, AND I'M NOT
SAYING THAT'S WHAT BUZZ IS
SAYING, I WOULD SAY FROM THE
TORY PERSPECTIVE,
I'D SAY GREAT.
IT'S LIKE WATCHING TWO
ENDANGERED SPECIES BATTLE IT
OUT FOR THEIR POINT IN THE
POLITICAL ECOSYSTEM WHERE
THEY CAN BOTH SURVIVE.
AND ONE OF THEM AIN'T
GOING TO SURVIVE THERE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, GOD BLESS
YOU, HAVE FUN, WE CAN ONLY
WIN, I THINK, AT THE END.
SPEAKING IN PARTISAN TERMS.

Steve says 'WE' MEANING
THE CONSERVATIVES.

Mac continues
WE MEANING THE CONSERVATIVE
RIGHT WING BECAUSE ONE OF
YOU IS TOTALLY GOING
TO UNDERCUT THE OTHER.
AND STRATEGIC VOTING WILL BE
MORE DIFFICULT, UNITING THE
MIDDLE WILL BE
MORE DIFFICULT.

Murray says I THINK YOU'RE SUGGESTING
MISTER HARGROVE IS IN FACT THE
LABOUR MOVEMENT, AND
THAT IS INCORRECT.

Mac says NO, WHAT I SUGGESTED IS
IF BUZZ IS SAYING GO BACK
TO LABOUR...

Murray says LABOUR HAS
FAILED EVERYWHERE.
IN FACT, IF YOU USE THE
BRITISH MODEL, THE GOLDEN
HANDCUFFS THAT THE LABOUR
MOVEMENT HAD IN THE LABOUR
PARTY FOR YEARS WHERE THEY
PROVIDED ALMOST ALL THE
FINANCES, HAS NEVER BEEN
THE CASE IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND IN FACT, IF WE ARE GOING
TO HAVE THE DEBATE THAT WE
HAVE TO HAVE, BUZZ
IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THAT DEBATE IS
VALID AND RELEVANT.
IT SHOULD BE DONE IN THE
COUNCILS OF THE PARTY AS
JORDAN HAS JUST SAID,
NOT IN THE MEDIA.
THAT IS THE ISSUE.

Steve says RICHARD.

Richard says BUT MURRAY SAID THAT WE
HAVE TO HAVE A DEBATE,
AND I AGREE WITH THEM.
THAT YOU GUYS HAVE
TO HAVE A DEBATE.
I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH YOUR
PROGNOSIS ABOUT WHERE YOU
SHOULD GO IN THE FUTURE.

Murray says BECAUSE YOUR PARTY'S
MOVED FARTHER TO THE RIGHT
THAN THE CONSERVATIVES.
WHY WHEN THE TWO RIGHT
WING PARTIES WANT YOU GUYS
TO MOVE TO THE RIGHT?

Richard continues
THAT'S WONDERFUL.
IT'S ABSOLUTELY NOT IN MY
INTEREST THAT YOU COME TO
CENTRE, IT'S ABSOLUTELY MY
INTEREST THAT YOU MOVE FAR
TO THE LEFT, BUT YOU DID
NOT ANSWER THE MAIN QUESTION.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT LET
LABOUR, THE CANADIAN AUTO
WORKERS, BUZZ HARGROVE,
VERY PROMINENT MEMBER, BE
PART OF THAT DEBATE YOU
WILL HAVE NOT JUST THIS
WEEKEND, BUT OVER
THE NEXT YEAR.
YOU'VE NOT PUT FORWARD A
COMPELLING ARGUMENT ON THAT YET.

Murray says IF IN FACT THE MAIN PURPOSE
IS TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE,
RATHER THAN DESTRUCTIVE,
BY ALL MEANS.
DON'T FORGET, THE
CAW IS REPRESENTED...

Richard says IN YOUR CONSTITUTION.

Murray continues
NO, ONE OF OUR VICE PRESIDENTS
SITS ON THIS COUNCIL.
AND BY THE WAY, THIS
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL WILL NOT
RECOMMEND EXPULSION.
IF ANYTHING, IT'LL BE ALONG
THE LINES OF WHAT JORDAN
HAS SUGGESTED, A
RAP ON THE KNUCKLES.
AN INDIVIDUAL CANNOT
ASK FOR AN EXPULSION.
THE ONLY BODY IN OUR PARTY THAT
CAN DO THAT IS THE EXECUTIVE.

Steve says WHY WON'T THEY
ASK FOR AN EXPULSION?

Murray says THEY
CAN ASK FOR IT.

Steve says WHY WON'T
THEY GET IT?
THE CONSTITUTION IS
WRITTEN VERY CAREFULLY.
IS THE DECK STACKED?

Buzz says LET ME JUST MAKE
A COUPLE OF POINTS
JUST FOR THE RECORD.

Steve says CAN I JUST
FIND THIS OUT?
TOO MANY CAW
MEMBERS WITHIN?

Murray says NO, IT'S A COMPLICATION I
DON'T THINK WE HAVE TIME
TO GO INTO.

Jordan says IT'S A VERY DRASTIC
MEASURE, AND IT SHOULDN'T
BE OPEN TO... THIS IS
SOMETHING THAT'S BUILT UP
OVER YEARS AND YEARS.

Steve says HANG ON, JORDAN
IS GOING TO TELL US WHY.

Jordan says IT'S NOT STALIN,
THAT'S RIDICULOUS.
HE HAS PUT US ON A SHOW
TRIAL FOR THE LAST TWO
OR THREE YEARS.
WHAT HAPPENED TO
JOHN NUNZIATA?

Richard says HE WAS KICKED OUT OF THE
CAUCUS, NOT KICKED OUT OF
THE PARTY, BY THE
PRIME MINISTER.
WE DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO
KICK SOMEONE OUT OF THE PARTY.
WE DON'T.

Jordan says ANYWAY, I'M NOT SURE
IF THE RIGHT DIRECTION FOR
THE PARTY IS WHAT MURRAY IS
CALLING FOR, OR WHAT BUZZ
IS CALLING FOR.
MY ISSUE IS AROUND MY
ABILITY AS A DELEGATE, AND
AS A MEMBER OF THE PARTY,
AND THE ABILITY OF OTHER
PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER
NEW DEMOCRATS, TO ACTUALLY
HAVE THEIR SAY WITHOUT
HAVING IT PRE DETERMINED AND
OVERDETERMINED BY PEOPLE
RUNNING TO THE PRESS AND
USING SYMBOLIC EMPTY
ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE THIRD
WAY, OR SHIFTING TO THE
RIGHT, SHIFTING TO THE
LEFT, WITHOUT EXAMPLE.

Buzz says THE YOUTH WING OF
THE PARTY ENDORSED ME.
THERE ARE TEN PEOPLE
IN THE YOUTH WING.
WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE
YOUTH, YOU CAN'T SAY
THEY ARE YOUTH, AND SAY

Jordan says THEY ARE ONLY TEN OF THEM.

Buzz continues
THEY'RE THE ONLY ONES THAT
CALLED FOR HOWARD TO STEP DOWN.
I CERTAINLY DIDN'T.
LET ME JUST GET TO THE NUB
OF THE ISSUE WHICH PEOPLE
ARE SAYING FIRSTLY THAT
I SAID VOTE LIBERAL.
I NEVER SAID VOTE LIBERAL.
I SAID VOTE STRATEGICALLY.
I GO BACK A WAYS
IN THE PARTY.
BOB RAE AND HOWARD HAMPTON
WAS PART OF HIS CAUCUS
DECIDED A FEW YEARS AGO THAT
FRANK MILLER, ALTHOUGH HE HAD
THE MOST SEATS, SHOULDN'T
BE THE GOVERNING PARTY.
THEY MADE A DEAL WITH THE
LIBERALS, SIGNED AN ACCORD,
WHICH I SUPPORTED BY THE
WAY, WE SUPPORTED THE
LIBERALS TO MAKE SURE THAT
THE LIBERALS GOT ELECTED,
AND THEY COME BACK AND
BECAME GOVERNMENT.
I REMEMBER DAVID LEWIS, AND
YOU WILL LEARN, DAVID LEWIS
PROPPED UP THE TRUDEAU
GOVERNMENT AND GOT A LOT
OF LEGISLATION.
NOBODY CALLED
HIM A LIBERAL.
BOB RAE SAYS WE SHOULD COME
TOGETHER AS ONE LEFT WING PARTY.
NOBODY'S CALLING
FOR HIS EXPULSION.
HE'S REALLY SAYING WE
SHOULD BE ONE LIBERAL.
ALL I'M SAYING IS WE SHOULD
GIVE BACK, WE SHOULD GET
BACK TO OUR ROOTS.
WE SHOULD BE REPRESENTING
THOSE PEOPLE WITHOUT
PRIVILEGE, VOICE AND
POWER IN OUR SOCIETY.
I DON'T THINK THAT'S
STRAYING VERY FAR FROM THE
PRINCIPLES THAT OUR PARTY,
AND THE PARTY THAT I JOINED
AS A LOT YOUNGER
THAN YOU ARE, JORDAN.

Steve says CAN I FOLLOW UP WITH
YOU ON THAT, BUZZ.
IN THE FORD SETTLEMENT
THIS PAST WEEK GIVES ME A
PERFECT... CONGRATULATIONS,
FIRST OF ALL.
I'VE NEVER SEEN A SETTLEMENT
WITH AN AUTO MAKER WHICH
WAS PRAISED SO WIDELY BY
ALL OF THE MEDIA, ALL OF
THE POINTY HEADS ON
THIS KIND OF THING.

Mac says NO, TERENCE
CORCORAN HATES IT.

Steve says WELL, TERENCE CORCORAN
HATES EVERYTHING.
BUT BUZZ, YOU GOT YOURSELF
SOME GREAT PRESS IN THAT
THING, AND DESERVEDLY SO.
HAVING SAID THAT, YOU JUST
TALKED ABOUT ALL OF THE
PEOPLE, THE SORT OF
DISENFRANCHISED IN SOCIETY
THAT YOU WOULD HOPE THE NDP
WOULD REPRESENT, YOU FEEL
THEY DON'T ANYMORE.
AND IRONICALLY, YOU KIND OF
DON'T REPRESENT THEM
ANYMORE EITHER.
AUTO WORKERS ARE NOW MAKING
CLOSE TO 100,000 DOLLARS A YEAR.

Mac says AND VOTING TORY.

Steve continues
AND VOTING TORY.
OSHAWA WENT TORY.

Mac says GOD BLESS 'EM ALL.

Buzz says LET ME TALK
ABOUT THAT.
ONE-THIRD OF OUR MEMBERSHIP
IS AUTO WORKERS COVERED BY
AN EXCELLENT
COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT.
THERE'S ANOTHER THIRD, KIND
OF MIDDLE WAY IN TERMS OF THAT.
THERE'S ANOTHER THIRD THAT
ARE VERY LOW INCOME WORKING
PEOPLE, STRUGGLING
TO GET BY.
MEMBERS OF OUR UNION.
THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF
OTHER FOLKS OUT THERE.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT, A LOT OF
OUR AUTO WORKERS VOTE TORY,
BUT A LOT OF THEM WERE
STILL DOING VERY WELL,
AND THEY VOTED NDP.
WHEN BOB RAE GOT ELECTED,
AND IN THE FIRST BUDGET PUT
A TAX ON GASOLINE, ON
CIGARETTES, AND ON BEER,
THE POOR MAN'S TAXES, WE
ALWAYS REFER TO THAT.
MURRAY WILL REMEMBER THAT.
AND THEN THE NEXT BUDGET
THEY BOUGHT A GAS GUZZLER
TAX IN THAT IMPACTED ON
EVERY PRODUCT WE WERE
BUILDING IN ONTARIO WITH
NO DISCUSSION, HE LOST THE
WORKERS IN OUR PLANT.
THE GENERAL MOTORS PUTS A
LETTER OUT TO WORKERS AND
THEIR FAMILIES SAYING WE'RE
GOING TO DEFEND YOUR JOBS
AGAINST THE NDP GOVERNMENT
WHO IS GOING TO DESTROY
THE PLANTS WITH THE
GAS GUZZLER TAX.
I COME OUT IN SUPPORT.
FIRST I COME AFTER BOB RAE.
WHY WOULD YOU BRING A GAS
GUZZLER TAX IN WITHOUT
TALKING TO THE UNION WHOSE
MEMBERS WORK IN THAT INDUSTRY.
THAT'S THE FIRST THING.
THEN WE SIT DOWN WITH FLOYD
LAUGHREN AND HIS PEOPLE, AND
WE WORKED OUT A COMPROMISE
THAT HAD THEY HAVE DONE
THAT IN ADVANCE WOULD HAVE
BEEN ACCEPTABLE TO THE
PEOPLE IN THE PLANT.
THAT'S WHAT I DONE.
AND GOT THEM OUT OF A HELL
OF A HOLE, OR THEY'D HAVE
BEEN IN A LOT
WORSE TROUBLE.

Jordan says THIS IS STILL BOTHERING
YOU SO MUCH LATER?

Buzz says THIS WAS 1999.
YOU ASKED YOURSELF HOW WE
GOT TO WHERE WE'RE AT TODAY?
WHY ARE WORKERS IN OSHAWA
VOTING AND MOVING TO THE REFORM,
THE REFORM PARTY BECAME
THE POPULOUS PARTY.
THOSE WHO WERE CHALLENGING
THE STATUS QUO BECAME THE
REFORM, BECAUSE THE NDP
WITH THE ACTIONS IN ONTARIO,
BECAME THE STATUS QUO.

Mac says I DON'T THINK LABOUR,
ORGANIZED LABOUR OR ANYBODY
ELSE VOTES LABELS ANYMORE.
WHATEVER LABEL YOU PUT ON THE
PARTY, CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT...

Steve says BUT AN AUTO WORKER
MAKING 100,000 DOLLARS A YEAR...

Mac says THEY NEVER DID.
BILL DAVIS HAD A GOOD
SIZE OF THE UNION VOTE IN
ONTARIO WHEN HE WAS PREMIER
BACK IN 1982, IN THE '80s.
SO THEY NEVER VOTED
THE LABEL ANYWAY.
SO EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT
DOER AGAIN, AND EVEN THE
NDP IN NOVA SCOTIA, I MEAN,
THERE WAS A REAL EFFORT THERE.
PEOPLE, MORE AND
MORE VOTE PLATFORM.
THEY WILL VOTE PLATFORM.
AND THE WAY THEY LOOK AT
PLATFORM, I THINK, DETERMINES
HOW WELL PARTIES DO.

Murray says THIS IS PRECISELY
MY POINT IN ASKING FOR
THE PARTY TO LOOK AT HOW WE
ARE MAKING THESE DECISIONS.
JORDAN HAS SAID
IT AS WELL.
THE POINT IS, IF YOU, IN
COUNCIL, AND WHEN YOU ARE
REPRESENTED BECAUSE THE CAW
IS WELL-REPRESENTED IN THE
PARTY, OVER AND ABOVE BUZZ,
AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN,
AND THEY ARE VERY BRIGHT,
INTELLIGENT PEOPLE.

Mac says ARE YOU A LITTLE
CONCERNED THAT THE PARTY...
YOU'RE ACTING A BIT LIKE
THE OLD ROMAN CURIA.
HERE YOU HAVE A VERY
PROMINENT MEMBER.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO
BE AN OPEN PARTY.
YOU MAKE DECISIONS
DIFFERENTLY THAN SAY THE
HATED TORIES DO,
OR THE LIBERALS DO.
AND IT DOES SEEM AS THOUGH
YOU ARE TRYING TO STIFLE
A MAJOR VOICE, AN
IMPORTANT VOICE.

Murray says NOT AT ALL.
NOT AT ALL.
FIVE YEARS THIS
HAS BEEN GOING ON.

Jordan says HE'S HAD HUNDREDS OF
ARTICLES IN THE PAPER OVER
THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
HIS VOICE IS NOT STIFLED.
THAT IS THE POINT.
OTHER PEOPLE'S
VOICES ARE STIFLED.
WE CANNOT HAVE A
HEALTHY DEBATE.

Buzz says I HEAR FROM A
REPORTER, MAC, TWO DAYS
AGO, THAT I'M GOING TO BE
THE SUBJECT OF DEBATE, AND
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE
TALKING ABOUT EXPELLING ME
FROM MY PARTY.
I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT SOMEONE
IN THE PARTY WOULD HAVE HAD
THE COURAGE TO WRITE TO ME
AND SAY, BUZZ, THERE IS
GOING TO BE A DISCUSSION
ABOUT YOUR FUTURE...

Steve says HOW DID YOU
FIND OUT ABOUT IT?

Murray says TWO DAYS AGO.
TWO DAYS AGO.

Buzz continues
NO ONE HAS INFORMED ME BY
THE PARTY THERE IS GOING TO
BE ANY DEBATE ABOUT MY
STATUS IN THE PARTY.

Jordan says THIS NEEDS TO BE
ADDRESSED, BEFORE YOU TURN
THIS INTO ANOTHER GRIEVANCE
THAT YOU'LL BRING UP FIVE
YEARS FROM NOW.
NO ONE IN THE PARTY KNEW
ABOUT IT UNTIL THE LETTER
WAS SUBMITTED TO
THE EXECUTIVE.
THAT IS HOW THINGS
ARE DONE IN THE PARTY.
YOU KNOW THAT.

Richard says JORDAN IS RIGHT TO
SAY BUZZ HARGROVE HAS HAD
LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY,
AND WILL HAVE LOTS OF
OPPORTUNITY TO
TALK ABOUT THIS.
ALSO, SINCE THE
ELECTION, YOUR LEADER...

Buzz says IF THERE'S GOING TO
BE A DECISION, I WON'T HAVE
ANY OPPORTUNITY.
I HAVEN'T BEEN NOTIFIED.

Mac says RED LETTER ON YOUR
HEAD SAYING E, OR EXPELLED
OR SOMETHING.

Richard continues I'M TRYING
TO MAKE A POINT.
HOWARD HAMPTON HAS, AS WELL,
HAD LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY,
AND TAKEN IT IN THE MEDIA,
SINCE THE ELECTION, TO
POINT A FINGER AT BUZZ
HARGROVE, AND BLAME HIM, IN
PART, FOR WHAT HAPPENED
ON ELECTION NIGHT.
I THINK THAT'S GIVING, WITH
ALL DUE RESPECT TO BUZZ
HARGROVE, HIM WAY TOO MUCH
CREDIT THAT A WHOLE BUNCH
OF PEOPLE WENT OUT ABOUT
DIDN'T VOTE NEW DEMOCRAT
BECAUSE BUZZ HARGROVE TOLD
THEM TO, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Murray says THIS IS NOT THE
ISSUE, ACTUALLY.

Richard says THAT'S NOT WHY YOU'RE
DOING THIS, MURRAY?
YOU'RE NOT ANGRY ABOUT
STRATEGIC VOTING?

Murray says NO, NO.
NOT AT ALL.
BECAUSE YOUR LEADER IS.
YOUR LEADER IS QUITE ANGRY.

Jordan says THAT'S A
MISREPRESENTATION.
THE ISSUE IS NOT THE CAW
RESOLUTION THEY PASSED.
THEY HAD A GREAT RESOLUTION.
AS USUAL, SO MANY CAW
ACTIVISTS WORKED VERY HARD
TO GET OUR
CANDIDATES ELECTED.
THE ISSUE IS EVERY TIME THE
CAW'S ROLE IN STRATEGIC
VOTING WAS RAISED IN THE
PRESS, IT LED TO CONFUSION.
WE HAD AUTO WORKERS IN THE
PAPERS IN WINDSOR SAYING,
SHOULD I VOTE FOR SANDRA
PUPATELLO OR NOT?

Richard says YOU
MADE MY POINT.
I'M ANGRY BY THE FACT THE
MOST PROMINENT MEMBER OF
THE PARTY IN THE
TRADE UNION MOVEMENT,
CONSCIOUSLY, DELIBERATELY,
SETS OUT TO UNDERMINE
THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

Steve says YOU SAID
UNDERMINE AND EMBARRASS.
ARE YOU TRYING TO DO THAT?

Buzz says UNDERMINE WHAT
DEMOCRATIC PROCESS
AND EMBARRASS WHO?
ALL I SAID WAS AFTER LISTENING
TO A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND
OUR PARTY FOR THREE YEARS,
I SAID, OKAY, AND I MET
WITH A LOT OF PARTY PEOPLE,
INCLUDING HOWARD HAMPTON.
AND I SAID, LET'S GET
TOGETHER AND TAKE A LOOK
AT WHERE WE'RE AT.
WE DID.
A LOT OF US GOT TOGETHER.
A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T SHOW.
THE POLLING SHOWED THAT
HARRIS WAS HOLDING AT
40 PERCENT, VERY STRONG.
ALL THE PARTIES
POLLING SHOWED.
NOT ONLY WERE THEY AT 40
PERCENT, BUT IT WAS A STRONG
40 PERCENT, THEY WOULDN'T
CONSIDER VOTING FOR
OTHER PARTIES.
THE ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT THEM
WAS TO SAY WE ARE GOING TO
USE THAT OTHER 60 PERCENT
IN A MANNER THAT'S GOING
TO MAKE IT AN EFFECTIVE,
EFFICIENT VOTE.
AND WE DECIDED TO MOVE AHEAD
IN THAT AREA, RECOGNIZING
WHERE WE'RE AT.
BUT OUR STRATEGY SAID, IF
THE POLLS START TO CHANGE,
WE WILL PUT MORE RESOURCES,
MORE MONEY, MORE SUPPORT,
INTO ELECTING
NEW DEMOCRATS.

Steve says WE ARE LITERALLY...

Buzz continues
BY THE WAY, THAT WAS
DONE AFTER A DEMOCRATIC
DEBATE BY THE
LEADERSHIP OF OUR UNION
RIGHT ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
IT WASN'T BUZZ HARGROVE,
IT WAS A TOTAL UNION.

Steve says I WANT TO GIVE
MURRAY THE LAST WORD.
WE'VE GOT 20 SECONDS LEFT.
MURRAY, TAKE THE LAST 20.

Murray says MISTER HARGROVE WOULD NOT ALLOW
A SENIOR OFFICER OF HIS
ORGANIZATION, A VICE
PRESIDENT OR SENIOR MEMBER
OF THE CAW TO CONSTANTLY
ATTACK THE UNION FOR FIVE YEARS.

Buzz says THAT HAPPENS ALL
THE TIME IN MY UNION.

Murray continues
BUZZ, I'M SORRY, I'VE BEEN
AROUND THE LABOUR MOVEMENT
FOR AS LONG AS YOU HAVE.
THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN
IN YOUR ORGANIZATION.

Steve says MURRAY,
I'M EVEN SORRIER.
THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT
DEBATE, WE'RE OUT OF TIME.
BUZZ HARGROVE, MURRAY
WEPPLER, MANY THANKS FOR
STARTING THIS DEBATE.
I'M SURE IT'S
GOING TO GO ON.
JORDAN, THANKS
FOR PINCH HITTING.
YOU, TOO.
SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT TIME.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Brett Ballah.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1999, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #168 "Buzz Off"