Transcript: Show #167 "Involuntary Commitment" | Sep 19, 1999

The opening sequence rolls.
Music plays as clips of politicians and demonstrations appear on an animated number 4.

A clip shows a gavel banging against a desk, and MPPs voting in the Legislature.

Steve says THIS
WEEK ON 4TH READING,
INVOLUNTARY COMMITMENT.
THE TORIES PROMISE TO
GET THE MENTALLY ILL
OFF THE STREETS.

Steve, Ruth, Richard, and Steve sit with two guests around a table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a beige suit over a dark green polo shirt.

Steve says HI, EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN AND
WELCOME TO THIS EDITION
OF 4TH READING.
THIS WEEK IN HAMILTON
AN INQUEST HEARD THE
HORRIFIC TALE OF ZACHARY
ANTIDORMI'S MURDER.

A picture of little Zachary appears on screen. He has blond hair and a blue shirt.

Steve continues
THE 2 AND A HALF YEAR OLD WAS
STABBED TO DEATH
WITH A KITCHEN
KNIFE BY A WOMAN
WITH PARANOID
SCHIZOPHRENIA.
THE CASE BRINGS TO MIND ONE
OF MIKE HARRIS' ELECTION
PROMISES, GETTING
THE MENTALLY ILL
OFF OUR STREETS
AND INTO CARE.
BUT INVOLUNTARY
CONFINEMENT IS ONE
HOT TOPIC OF
DEBATE OUT THERE.
TONIGHT WE'LL TALK TO
PRISCILLA DE VILLIERS
WHOSE DAUGHTER NINA
WAS KILLED BY A MAN
SUFFERING FROM
MENTAL ILLNESS.

Priscilla appears on screen. She’s in her mid-fifties. She has short dark brown hair and wears a beige blazer over a patterned blouse with a matching scarf.

Steve continues
AND DIANA CAPPONI WHO
CAN TELL US FIRST HAND
JUST WHAT IT'S LIKE TO
BE FORCIBLY CONFINED.

Diana is in her early forties. She has long wavy reddish hair down to the shoulders and wears a green blouse.

Steve continues
FIRST, THOUGH, WE'LL
LET ZACHARY'S PARENTS
TELL US THEIR
OWN TRAGIC TALE.

A clip plays. Zachary’s parents appear on screen. The mother is in her mid-thirties. She has straight blond hair down to the shoulders and wears a beige jacket over a white turtleneck. The Father, next to her, is in his forties. He has short grey curly hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a long-sleeve grey Polo shirt.

A caption reads "Lori Triano-Antidormi."

Lori says SHE DID A LOT OF
DIFFERENT THINGS.
I THINK IT ESCALATED WHEN
WE BROUGHT HER TO COURT
FOR AN ASSAULT CHARGE
WHEN SHE FOLLOWED ME
AND ZACHARY DOWN AN
ALLEYWAY AND PUSHED ME,
AND I THINK THAT
FRIGHTENED ME.
AND THE POLICE OFFICER
CALLED DID SAY WE
COULD CHARGE HER WITH
ASSAULT, WHICH WE DID.
THE LAST INCIDENT,
SHE PUT -
I BELIEVE IT WAS A BROOM

THROUGH MY DOOR.
THE POLICE
DIDN'T RESPOND.
WE CALLED THE ONLY
PEOPLE WE COULD,
THE POLICE, THE
ALDERMAN FOR HELP.

The Reporter says WHAT DID THEY
SAY WHEN YOU CALLED?

Lori says UMM, THEY SAID
DIFFERENT THINGS.
THEY SAID, WE
DIDN'T SEE HER.
THERE'S NO LAW
AGAINST BEING -
TO USE THEIR
TERMS - CRAZY.

The caption changes to "Tony Antidormi."

Tony says THINGS JUST GOT
WORSE AND I CALL IT,
WE WERE STALKED.
WE WERE HARASSED.
OUR LIFE
WAS MISERABLE
FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS,
ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE.
SHE WOULD -

Lori says VIDEOTAPE US.

Tony continues
VIDEOTAPE US.
SHE WOULD
INSULT MY WIFE.
SHE WOULD MAKE THREATS
TO MY WIFE, TO MY SON,
TO MY FAMILY, SO THERE WAS
NEVER A PERIOD OF TIME
FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS
WHERE WE WEREN'T BEING -
OUR LIFE WASN'T BEING
MADE MISERABLE
AND NOBODY WOULD DO
ANYTHING ABOUT IT,
AND THAT'S MY
BIGGEST CONCERN.

Lori says AND THE LAST INCIDENT
THAT WE HAD WAS,
TONY WAS WORKING ONE
EVENING AND I HEARD
THE CAT MEOWING, I THINK,
SO I LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW.
NOW I SAW THE NEIGHBOUR
LUCIA OUTSIDE.
SHE SAW ME LOOKING.
I DON'T KNOW IF SHE THOUGHT
I WAS LOOKING AT HER.
I MEAN, HER THINKING WAS
NOT ACCURATE AND THEN
THE NEXT THING I KNOW, I
HAD PUT ZACHARY TO BED
AND I WAS IRONING, AND THERE
WAS A BIG BANG ON MY DOOR.
SO I WAS VERY
FRIGHTENED.
I KNEW IT WAS LUCIA
BECAUSE OF OUR HISTORY,
SO I CALLED THE POLICE.
THEY CAME.
THEY DID NOT GO AND
TALK TO Mrs. PIOVESAN.
THEY SAID SOMETHING LIKE
THEN SHE'LL THINK SHE WON.
I THINK THAT THAT INCIDENT
COULD HAVE BEEN CRUCIAL
BECAUSE HER MENTAL ILLNESS
WAS PROBABLY ESCALATING
AND MAYBE THEY COULD
HAVE CAUGHT WIND
OF SOME OF HER
DELUSIONS.

Tony says WE DID IT THE
RIGHT WAY, CALLING
THE PROPER
AUTHORITIES, IGNORE.
NOT GET INTO IT
WITH HER.
THE RESULT WAS MY
SON GOT KILLED.
IF THIS INQUEST CAN BE DONE
IN A WAY WHERE IT MEETS
NOT JUST MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS
BUT SOCIETY'S PROTECTION
FROM DANGEROUS
INDIVIDUALS, BRING IT ON
AND LET'S MAKE EVERYBODY
TALK ABOUT IT.

Lori says I WOULD SAY AS ZACHARY'S
MOTHER THAT I THINK ZACHARY
DESERVES ALL THIS ATTENTION
AND THE ONE WAY THAT I CAN
GET UP AND COME TO THE
INQUEST EVERY DAY
IS BY LOOKING AT IT IN
THIS WAY, THAT THE SYSTEM
RECOGNIZES THAT THEY
FAILED ZACHARY BIG TIME
AND AT LEAST THEY'RE
WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

Tony says AND THEN WE CAN GO AWAY
AND HAVE OUR OWN
PRIVATE LIFE AND NOT
SHARE MY SON'S DEATH -

Lori says PUBLICLY.

Tony continues
PUBLICLY AGAIN.
BUT IF HIS DEATH - THE ONLY
THING THAT COULD COME OUT
OF IT IS HELPING OTHER
PEOPLE, LET'S DO IT.

The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

He says HOW DO WE GET THOSE WHO
ARE SERIOUSLY ILL AND
WHO SOMETIMES REFUSE TO TAKE
THEIR MEDICATION INTO CARE?
THE CONSERVATIVES ARE
LOOKING AT LEGISLATING
SOMETHING CALLED COMMUNITY
TREATMENT ORDERS.
NOW THESE ORDERS WOULD GIVE
AUTHORITIES THE RIGHT
TO FORCE PEOPLE BACK TO
INSTITUTIONS TO TAKE TREATMENT.
THE FAMILIES OF
THE MENTALLY ILL
WANT IT DONE
YESTERDAY.
ADVOCATES FOR PATIENTS
CALL IT A GROSS VIOLATION
OF THE PATIENT'S
CIVIL RIGHTS.

A new clip plays.

The caption changes to "Janice Wiggins. Schizophrenia Society Of Ontario." She’s in her forties. She has long wavy brown hair and wears rounded glasses, a purple shirt, black blazer and a patterned scarf.

Janice says I WOULD SUGGEST THAT
LEGISLATION IS THE FOUNDATION
FOR ANY CHANGES AND
IT'S NOT ONLY SERVICES
THAT ARE NEEDED
NOR RESOURCES,
BUT GOING HAND IN HAND
TOGETHER WITH CHANGES
TO LEGISLATION TO ENSURE THAT
WE HAVE THE BEST POSSIBLE
LAWS AND POLICIES AND
PROVISIONS IN THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO FOR
THOSE WHO ARE VERY
SEVERELY MENTALLY ILL.

The caption changes to "Glenn Thompson. Canadian Mental Health Association." He’s in his fifties. He has short dark blond hair and is clean-shaven. He wears big square glasses, black suit, light blue shirt and contrasting black tie.

Glenn says THE WORRY IS THAT COMMUNITY
TREATMENT ORDERS,
IF THEY WERE IN LAW, WOULD
BE USED MUCH MORE WIDELY
THAN THEY NEED TO BE, SO
PEOPLE MIGHT GET SCOOPED UP
OFF THE STREET WHO HAVE NO
BUSINESS BEING PUT UNDER
A COMMUNITY TREATMENT ORDER
AND HAVE THAT APPLIED.
OR THE POLICE WOULD
THINK IT'S NECESSARY,
TAKE THE PERSON TO A
PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL.
THE INDIVIDUAL
WOULD BE LOOKED AT
BY A PSYCHIATRIST.
THE PSYCHIATRIST IN
SOME CASES WOULD SAY,
WHY DID YOU BRING THIS
PERSON OVER HERE?
THIS PERSON'S NOT
SERIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL.

The clip ends and Steve appears back in the studio.

He says THE DEBATE OVER WHAT TO DO
WITH PEOPLE WHO SUFFER
FROM MENTAL ILLNESSES
WHO MAY BE A DANGER
TO THEMSELVES AND TO
THEIR COMMUNITIES.
AND TO PARTICIPATE
IN OUR DISCUSSION,
LET US RE-INTRODUCE
PRISCILLA DE VILLIERS.
SHE STARTED A VICTIM’S
RIGHTS GROUP CALLED
CAVEAT AFTER HER
TEENAGE DAUGHTER NINA
WAS MURDERED BY A
PSYCHIATRIC PATIENT.
AND DIANA
CAPPONI IS HERE.
SHE IS A SELF-DESCRIBED
PSYCHIATRIC SURVIVOR,
NOW A MEMBER OF AN ADVISORY
COMMUNITY TO THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT ON MENTAL
HEALTH REFORM.
WE ALSO WELCOME BACK OUR
TEAM OF QUEEN'S PARK
ANALYSTS, AND THEY ARE, A
FORMER HEALTH MINISTER,
RUTH GRIER, WHO HANDLED
THIS FILE WHEN SHE WAS
AN NDP CABINET MINISTER
BETWEEN '90 AND '95.

Ruth is in her sixties. She has neat short white hair and wears a blue shirt and a pearl necklace.

Steve continues
MAC PENNEY FROM GPC,
GOVERNMENT POLICY
CONSULTANTS.

Mac appears next. He’s in his fifties. He has short grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears oval glasses, a pale grey suit, light mint green shirt and contrasting brown tie.

Steve continues AND FROM
THE OTTAWA LAW FIRM
FRASER MILNER, THERE'S
RICHARD MAHONEY,
A PAST PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS.

Richard is in his late forties. He has short curly grey hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black suit, shocking blue shirt and contrasting patterned yellow tie.

Steve continues
LET US START, DIANA, IF I
CAN WITH A BASIC QUESTION.
DO THE MENTALLY ILL FEEL
THAT THEY HAVE TO GIVE UP
SOME OF THEIR BASIC
CIVIL RIGHTS IN ORDER
THAT THE BROADER
COMMUNITY FEEL SAFER?

The caption changes to "Diana Capponi. Psychiatric survivor."

Diana says THAT'S A BIG QUESTION.
I THINK WHAT PEOPLE WHO
HAVE BEEN LABELLED
AS MENTALLY ILL FEEL IS A
LOT OF STIGMA AND A LOT
OF DISCRIMINATION BASED
ON A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
IN THE COMMUNITY ABOUT
THE MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM.
THE SO-CALLED SUPPORTS THAT
ARE NOT THERE FOR PEOPLE.
AND A LOT OF EXPLOITATION
WHEN A HORRIBLE EVENT
LIKE THE ONE WE JUST
HEARD OF OCCURS,
I THINK THE HEADLINES,
WHAT PEOPLE READ FIRST
AND FOREMOST IS PARANOID
SCHIZOPHRENIC.
I WORK WITH
SCHIZOPHRENICS EVERY DAY.
WE RUN BUSINESSES IN THIS
CITY AND THE PEOPLE
THAT I WORK WITH ARE
NOT MURDERERS.
THEY'RE NOT BAD GUYS.
THIS HAS A HORRIBLE IMPACT
ON ANYONE WITH THE LABEL.
CONSIDER YOURSELF GETTING
A MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS
OR A LABEL AND THEN BEING
TOLD IN ORDER TO CARRY ON
YOUR LIFE YOU ARE GOING TO BE
HAULED BACK AT SOMEONE'S WHIM
WHEN THEY FEEL THAT YOU
HAVEN'T BEEN COMPLIANT
WITH THEIR PLAN FOR YOU.

Steve says OKAY, PRISCILLA,
LET ME GO TO YOU
WITH THAT SAME
QUESTION.
DO YOU FEEL IT'S NECESSARY
THAT PSYCHIATRIC PATIENTS
GIVE UP SOME OF THEIR
OWN INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS
SO THE BROADER COMMUNITY
CAN FEEL SAFE?

The caption changes to "Priscilla de Villiers. CAVEAT."

Priscilla says I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO
LOOK AT DIFFERENTIATION.
I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT
THE SERIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL
WHO ARE UNABLE TO REACH
DECISIONS OR WHO ARE
NOT COMPETENT TO MAKE THEIR
OWN DECISIONS AND WHO
ARE ACTING IN A MANNER THAT
IS CAUSING DANGER TO OTHERS.
SO IT'S A VERY
SMALL PROPORTION.
I THINK ONE OF
THE PROBLEMS IS,
WE LUMP EVERYBODY TOGETHER
UNDER THE SAME LABEL,
MENTALLY ILL, AND I THINK
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG.
BUT WHEN IT'S THAT TINY
GROUP I THINK THAT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND IT'S
A VERY SPECIFIC GROUP
AND IT'S WHERE THERE'S A
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND
A MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM THAT
ARE NOT WORKING TOGETHER
AND NOT DEALING WITH IT,
AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

Steve says YOU'VE BEEN FORCING
CONFINED, RIGHT?

Diana says IT'S INTERESTING,
MYSELF AND OTHERS,
WE DID A PRESENTATION
TO THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT LAST YEAR.
26 PEOPLE WITH
MENTAL ILLNESS,
AND YOU'VE GOT UNDERSTAND
AND THE PUBLIC'S
GOT TO UNDERSTAND,
BECAUSE HAVE A DIAGNOSIS,
DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY
PSYCHIATRIC WILL AGREE
WITH THAT DIAGNOSIS.
SO ONE INDIVIDUAL MAY HAVE
SCHIZOAFFECTIVE DISORDERS.
THE NEXT HOSPITALIZATION
MAY BE DEEMED
MANIC-DEPRESSIVE.
THERE'S NO EXACTLY SCIENCE
WITH PSYCHIATRY AND
I THINK THE PUBLIC'S
GOT TO RECOGNIZE THAT.
MANY OF US HAVE BEEN
FORMED, AS WE CALL IT,
AGAINST OUR WILL.
THE MINUTE WE DECIDE TO
APPEAL THAT DECISION
OR TO GO REVIEW BOARDS,
SUDDENLY WE BECOME
VOLUNTARY PATIENTS.
NOW IF WE WERE A DANGER -

Steve says FORMED MEANS
AGAINST YOUR WILL.

Diana continues
PUT IN AGAINST YOUR WILL
AND HELD, I BELIEVE,
FOR 72 HOURS BEFORE YOU
CAN APPEAR BEFORE
A REVIEW BOARD HEARING.
AND IT'S INTERESTING HOW
MANY OF US BECOME
VOLUNTARY PATIENTS IN
THAT TIMEFRAME.
NOW IF WE REALLY WERE
A DANGER TO OURSELVES
OR OTHERS, WHY IS IT THAT
WITHIN THAT 72-HOUR PERIOD
WE SUDDENLY
BECOME VOLUNTARY?
AND I THINK WITH THE
MENTAL HEALTH ACT
AS IT EXISTS TODAY
THERE ARE SAFEGUARDS.
IT SOUNDS TO ME IN THIS
CASE THE POLICE DID NOT
DO THEIR JOB AND
CLEARLY THIS WOMAN
HAD VERY SERIOUS
PROBLEMS.
THEY'VE BEEN
CALLED MANY TIMES.

Steve says THIS IS THE WOMAN IN
HAMILTON WHO KILLED ZACHARY.

Diana continues
AND WHY DID THE POLICE NOT
CONTACT THE MENTAL HEALTH
SERVICE AGENCY?
WHY DIDN'T THEY
DO THEIR JOB?
RATHER THAN TAKE ALL
PEOPLE WITH THE LABEL
OF SCHIZOPHRENIA AND TALK
ABOUT A TREATMENT ORDER
WHICH GIVES US
MORE STIGMA.
WHY NOT LOOK AT WHAT IS
IT THAT THE SYSTEM'S
NOT DOING AND IS IT THE
PAPERWORK TOO MUCH?
THAT DOCTORS DON'T
WANT TO FILL IT OUT?
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I THINK PRISCILLA AND
DIANA HAVE BOTH HIT ON IT,
THAT I MEAN TO USE THE
EXAMPLE THAT YOU STARTED WITH,
IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT
THE POLICE WERE NOT
THE PEOPLE WHO OUGHT TO HAVE
BEEN HANDLING THE CASE.
BUT THERE WAS NO MECHANISM
FOR EITHER THE RESIDENTS
WHO DON'T KNOW THEIR
WAY THROUGH THE SYSTEM
TO GET TO THE
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY,
AND THE POLICE SHOULD HAVE
BEEN THE CONDUIT THAT SAID,
THIS IS BEYOND US.
THERE'S A COMMUNITY
PROBLEM HERE.
LET'S GO TO THE LOCAL
MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM
AND THAT SYSTEM HAS
TO BE THERE TO HELP.

Priscilla says BUT I HAVE TO SAY,
JUST TO CUT IN,
IN THE INQUEST INTO THE MAN
WHO KILLED MY DAUGHTER,
INTO THE DEATH OF THE MAN
WHO KILLED MY DAUGHTER,
WE HEARD AT LEAST A MONTH

BECAUSE PART OF IT
WAS ABOUT THE MENTAL
HEALTH SYSTEM,
AND THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
AREN'T FUNCTIONING.
HE WAS TAKEN INTO VIRTUALLY
EVERY MENTAL HEALTH
EMERGENCY SYSTEM IN THE
AREA AND EACH TIME
THE POLICE TOOK HIM THERE
AND IT'S A REVOLVING DOOR.
THE INFORMATION WAS
NEVER DISSEMINATED
AND CROSS REFERENCED.
THE POLICE DIDN'T KNOW HOW
TO DEAL WITH MENTAL HEALTH,
PRIVACY ISSUES,
ETCETERA, CAME IN.
THE DOCTORS DIDN'T -
THEY JUST RELEASED HIM,
AND I'M HEARING - IT'S
REALLY EARLY DAYS BUT
I'M HEARING THE IDENTICAL
TESTIMONY IN THE ANTIDORMI.
SO YOU KNOW, WE KNOW
WHAT THE PROBLEM IS
IN THESE VERY RARE CASES,
LUCKILY VERY RARE.

Ruth says BUT THE PROBLEM IS NOT AN
INSOLVABLE ONE AND
THE FRUSTRATION OF EVERY ONE IS
THAT IT HASN'T BEEN SOLVED
AND THE BEGINNINGS TO
START IT HAVE STOPPED
WHEN GOVERNMENTS
HAVE CHANGED.
I MEAN, GOVERNMENTS HAVE
WRESTLED WITH THIS AND
IT'S BEEN BEGUN AND THEN
LO AND BEHOLD FUNDING
GETS WITHDRAWN,
HOSPITALS GET CLOSED.
IT DOESN'T CONTINUE.

Steve says BUT WE GOT ANOTHER
GOVERNMENT NOW,
A SECOND TERM HARRIS
GOVERNMENT WHICH IS TALKING
ABOUT ENFORCING ORDERS,
COMMUNITY TREATMENT ORDERS.

Diana says IF WE LOOK AT THE
HISTORY, SASKATCHEWAN
HAS COMMUNITY TREATMENT
ORDER LEGISLATION.
IT'S HARDLY EVER USED
AND I'VE GOT TO SAY
IN SASKATCHEWAN IN ORDER
TO ENACT THE COMMUNITY
TREATMENT ORDER, YOU HAVE
TO HAVE EXISTING
SERVICES IN THE
COMMUNITY.
WE STILL DON'T HAVE
EXISTING SERVICES
IN THE COMMUNITY.
THE DETERMINANCE OF
HEALTH FOR PEOPLE,
THINGS LIKE A HOME,
A JOB, A FRIEND,
STILL DON'T EXIST.
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
IS STILL INTENT ON GIVING
ITS FUNDS TO THE MEDICAL
MODEL AND YOU KNOW WHAT
SOMETIMES PEOPLE WITH
ILLNESSES CREATE -
DO HORRIBLE CRIMES.
SOMETIMES THEY DO IT WHILE
THEY'RE ON MEDICATION.
SOMETIMES THEY DO IT WHEN
THEY'RE NOT ON MEDICATION.
WE HAVE AN ACT.
THE ACT CAN WORK.
LET'S FIX IT INSTEAD
OF INVENTING
THIS WHOLE OTHER
PROCESS.

Steve says WELL LET ME PUT
THAT TO MAC.
MAC, YOUR PARTY CAMPAIGNED
DURING THE RECENT ELECTION
CAMPAIGN IN JUNE ON A
CHANGE IN THE LAW -
I THINK I'VE GOT THE THING
RIGHT HERE - YEAH,
WE'LL CHANGE THE LAWS
THAT STAND IN THE WAY
OF FAMILIES, POLICE, AND
SOCIAL WORKERS SO THAT PEOPLE
WHO POSE A DANGER TO
THEMSELVES OR OTHERS
CAN BE TAKEN OFF THE STREET
TO GET THE CARE THEY NEED.
THAT'S CALLED A COMMUNITY
TREATMENT ORDER.
NOW, I'VE READ
THE LAW TODAY.
DO YOU REALLY NEED
A CHANGE IN LAW.
DOCTORS ALREADY HAVE THE
RIGHT TO INSTITUTIONALIZE
PEOPLE IF THEY BELIEVE
THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE IN
IMMINENT DANGER TO THEMSELVES
OR THEIR COMMUNITIES.
SO WHAT DO YOU
NEED THAT FOR?

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ontario PC Advisor."

He says I'M NOT SURE THAT
WHAT'S REQUIRED
IS A CHANGE IN THE LAW.
I THINK THAT WHAT'S
REQUIRED IN THE CASE
OF POLICE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS
MUCH CLEARER GUIDELINES
IN TERMS OF WHAT THEIR
ROLE IS IN THE SYSTEM.
I THINK THERE HAS TO BE,
AS PRISCILLA MENTIONED,
AND I BELIEVE
RUTH MENTIONED,
A GREATER INTEGRATION IN
TERMS OF - AND A BETTER
UNDERSTANDING OF THE
SYSTEM THAT'S HERE
AND THE REGULATIONS
THAT ARE THERE.

Steve says OKAY, BUT YOU'VE CAMPAIGNED
TO CHANGE THE LAWS.
THAT'S WHAT IT
SAYS HERE.

Mac says WELL, WHETHER YOU TAKE
IT AS A STATUTORY FIX
OR A REGULATORY FIX,
OR A PROGRAM FIX,
I THINK THAT THAT
HAS TO BE DONE.
IT MAY BE THAT YOU NEED A
LAW TO PROVIDE DIFFERENT
PLAYERS IN THE CURRENT
SYSTEM WITH BROADER
POWERS TO DO
DIFFERENT THINGS.
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW,
AND I THINK UNTIL
THE CONSULTATIONS ARE
COMPLETED AND THE ROLE -
AND THE WORKUPS ARE DONE,
WE WON'T KNOW THAT.
AND MAYBE YOU CAN
DO IT WITHOUT A LAW.

Steve says GOTTA TO FORGIVE THIS
POLITICAL QUESTION,
BUT THERE'S A LIBERAL
BACKBENCHER NAMED RICHARD
PATTEN FROM OTTAWA WHO
THREE TIMES HAS TRIED TO
DO THIS VERY THING AND
THREE TIMES THE GOVERNMENT
DIDN'T SUPPORT IT.

Richard says ACTIVELY
DEFEATED IT ACTUALLY.

Steve says ACTIVELY
DEFEATED IT.
DO YOU KNOW WHY
THAT WOULD BE?

Mac says MAYBE BECAUSE IT
WAS RICHARD PATTEN.
NO, I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW WHY
THAT WOULD BE.
I THINK THAT IN SOME
CASES THE GOVERNMENTS -
THIS IS A VERY
SENSITIVE ISSUE.
IT'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE,
AND IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN
CONSIDERED BY THE
GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATE
FOR A PRIVATE
MEMBER'S BILL.
IN OTHER CASES -

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

He says YET THE EXACT LANGUAGE
THAT RICHARD PATTEN,
WHO'S NOT ONLY A MEMBER OF
PARLIAMENT FROM OTTAWA,
BUT FROM OTTAWA CENTRE
WHICH IS PRETTY WELL
THE GREATEST RIDING IN
THE PROVINCE, I THINK.

Steve says IS THAT
WHERE YOU LIVE?
THAT HAPPENS TO
BE WHERE I LIVE.

Ruth says BUT YOU'RE
TALKING FEDERALLY.

Richard continues
RIGHT, BUT - AND
PROVINCIALLY, OF COURSE.
THE EXACT SAME WORDING
THAT PATTEN'S BILL USED,
WHICH WAS REMOVAL OF
THE WORD IMMINENT,
IN FRONT OF DANGER, WAS
THE EXACT LANGUAGE
THAT THE TORIES USED IN
THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
SO A CYNIC,
CERTAINLY NOT ME,
MIGHT SUGGEST THAT IN
THEIR EFFORT IN THE ELECTION
CAMPAIGN TO BE SWEEPING
SQUEEGEE KIDS OFF STREETS
AND MAKING STREETS CLEAN,
THEY THOUGHT THIS THING
FOLDED RATHER NICELY
INTO THAT PACKAGE.
THAT'S WHAT A CYNIC
WOULD SUGGEST.
I THINK THAT DIANA'S POINT
ABOUT THE SASKATCHEWAN MODEL.
I LOOKED AT IT.
I THINK SASKATCHEWAN MAKES
SOME SENSE BUT IT ONLY
MAKES SENSE IF THERE ARE THE
APPROPRIATE COMMUNITY
SUPPORTS IN THERE INCLUDING
PEOPLE FOR THE POLICE
TO LIAISE WITH IN SITUATIONS
LIKE THE ANTIDORMI SITUATION.

Steve says WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT
THAT MORE IN A SECOND,
BUT, PRISCILLA, I WANT
TO GO TO YOU THEN.
BASICALLY THE
SAME QUESTION.
IS THE CHANGE IN THE
LAW REALLY NECESSARY?
WHAT THE CONSERVATIVES
HAVE CAMPAIGNED ON,
WHAT DICK PATTEN HAS
TRIED TO GET DONE,
IS IT REALLY NECESSARY
GIVEN THAT THE LAW
ALREADY PERMITS DOCTORS TO DO
THIS, TO INSTITUTIONALIZE
PEOPLE WHO THEY BELIEVE
ARE IN TROUBLE?

Priscilla says I THINK THERE
ARE TWO ANSWERS.
ONE, I THINK THIS QUESTION
OF IMMANENCE IS SOMETHING
THAT HAS COME UP
AGAIN AND AGAIN,
IN THE PATRICIA
ALLEN KILLING.
IN OUR INQUEST THEY TALK
ABOUT IMMINENT DANGER,
AND THAT SEEMS TO BE -
YOU KNOW,
I'M NOT A DOCTOR SO I
REALLY CAN'T SPEAK,
BUT IT SEEMS TO BE
A STICKING POINT.

Richard says DANGER SHOULD BE -

Priscilla continues
WELL, THEY SAID ABOUT THE
MAN THAT KILLED NINA,
THEY SAID THEY KNEW HE WAS
VERY DANGEROUS TO WOMEN,
HIGHLY LIKELY TO REOFFEND
BUT NOT IN IMMINENT DANGER.
IN OTHER WORDS,
RIGHT NOW OR AT 3:00.
SO THAT SEEMS TO
BE A REAL PROBLEM.
THE SECOND PART
IS, I THINK,
IS THAT THE REASON THAT I
THINK WE NEED TO TAKE
A VERY THOROUGH LOOK AT THE
LAW AND IN AN OPEN MINDED
SORT OF FASHION IS
THAT IT ISN'T WORKING.
IT'S NOT BEING
IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY.

Diana says AND THEN WE HAVE TO
LOOK AT WHY THAT IS,
AND I THINK
THAT'S IMPORTANT.
RATHER THAN INVENTING A
PIECE OF LEGISLATION
THAT NOT ONLY CONTINUES
TO STIGMATIZE PEOPLE,
IMAGINE IF YOU'RE A PERSON
TODAY WHO'S SUFFERING FROM
SYMPTOMS OF SCHIZOPHRENIA
ARE YOU GOING TO
GO FOR HELP IN
THIS CLIMATE?
I WOULDN'T, YOU KNOW,
I'D BE AFRAID TO.
SO I THINK YOU'VE GOT TO
INCLUDE THAT AND YOU'VE GOT
TO LOOK AT A WHOLE RANGE
OF REASONS WHY PERHAPS
THE MENTAL HEALTH ACT
ISN'T BEING UTILIZED
AND TRY AND FIX THAT.
I HAVE MY OWN
OPINIONS ABOUT THAT.
YOU KNOW, THE PROVINCE
OF NEW BRUNSWICK STUDIED
COMMUNITY TREATMENT ORDERS
FOR SOME TIME AND LAST
FEBRUARY THEY DECIDED THAT
IT WAS NOT A USEFUL TOOL
AND THEY WERE NOT
GOING TO PASS -

Steve says BECAUSE, WHY, THEY WERE
WORRYING ABOUT ABUSE OR WHAT?

Diana says BECAUSE THEY HAVE
AN EXISTING ACT.
THEY HAVE PUBLIC
SAFETY AT HEART.
WHAT THEY'VE
DISCOVERED IS, AGAIN,
IT'S THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTS
THAT ARE IMPORTANT -

Steve says OKAY, LET ME
PICK UP ON THAT.
COMMUNITY SUPPORTS.

Diana says AND IF I JUST MAY
SAY SOMETHING.
YOU SAID THAT
THERE IS ONE MAN,
THE PATRICIA ALLEN KILLING,
WHO WAS DEEMED DANGEROUS
AND WOULD PROBABLY
REOFFEND.
I CAN TELL YOU MANY MEN
THAT I KNOW ARE
DANGEROUS TO WOMEN AND
I'VE BEEN ASSAULTED MANY
TIMES FROM MEN WHO HAVE
NO MENTAL ILLNESS
WHATSOEVER.
WHY IS IT WITH SOMEONE WITH
A MEDICAL LABEL IS BEING
TREATED DIFFERENTLY FROM
SOMEONE WHO'S JUST
AN ABUSER, RIGHT?
THAT TO ME IS
DISCRIMINATORY
AND IT'S BASED ON A
MEDICAL LABEL.
I DON'T THINK THAT DOCTORS
CAN PREDICT VIOLENCE.
THEY CAN'T - OFTEN
PEOPLE ARE REFUSED
ADMISSION INTO
HOSPITAL.
THEY GO HOME AND
KILL THEMSELVES.
THEN DOCTORS SAY, OH, WE
CAN'T PREDICT VIOLENCE.

Steve says PRISCILLA, DID YOU
WANT TO COMMENT ON THAT?

Priscilla says YEAH, HE'D ALREADY
ATTACKED EIGHT WOMEN
AND SO ON AND
SO FORTH.
AND THE FACT IS THAT HE'D
BEEN - IT WAS A DEFENCE
ORDERED ASSESSMENT
BECAUSE HE'D HAD
SO MANY PSYCHIATRIC
PRESSURES.
SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, I
CAN'T REALLY ARGUE THAT.

Steve says EVERYBODY AT THIS TABLE HAS
TALKED ABOUT THE NEED
FOR COMMUNITY SUPPORT.
THERE IS CONSENSUS THAT
REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU'RE
GOING TO DO, CHANGE THE
LAW, LEAVE THE LAW AS IS,
YOU GOTTA HAVE BETTER
COMMUNITY SUPPORTS.
TO THAT END, I WANT TO
GET INTO A DISCUSSION
HERE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT
OUR PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
IS DOING THAT.
I KNOW THAT THE HEALTH
MINISTER - HOW LONG AGO
WAS THIS, 14 OR
15 MONTHS AGO,
MADE A RATHER SPLASHY
ANNOUNCEMENT PROMISING
TO SPEND DOZENS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS -
I THINK 60-SOME-ODD
MILLION DOLLARS ON IMPROVING
PSYCHIATRIC CARE
IN THE PROVINCE.
I NOTE AT THE
SAME TIME, THOUGH,
THE GOVERNMENT IS CLOSING
PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITALS
IN THUNDER BAY, HAMILTON,
LONDON, ST. THOMAS,
KINGSTON, AND BROCKVILLE.
SO I NEED SOMEBODY TO
EXPLAIN TO ME WHETHER
WE'RE BETTER OFF AT
THE END OF THE DAY.
MAC, THAT'S WHY
YOU'RE HERE.

Mac giggles and says WELL, SO GLAD
I ARRIVED.
I WAS WONDERING.
I'M NOT FROM
OTTAWA CENTRE.
I THINK THE HOSPITAL
CLOSINGS WERE PART
OF THE GENERAL HEALTHCARE
RESTRUCTURING AND THERE WAS
THE DE-INSTITUTIONALIZATION
MOVEMENT WHICH HAS BEEN
ONGOING SINCE I GUESS THE
LATE '70s AND HAS OCCURRED
UNDER THREE OR FOUR
DIFFERENT ADMISSIONS.
SOME WOULD SAY
BADLY MANAGED.
SOME WOULD SAY NOT BADLY
MANAGED, BUT IN ANY CASE,
IT CREATED A TREMENDOUS
OVER CAPACITY IN TERMS
OF NUMBER OF BEDS IN
PARTICULAR REGIONS.
AND SO THEY WERE
SUPPORTING BRICKS
AND MORTAR AND EMPTY BEDS
AND THEY WERE CLOSED
FOR THAT REASON.
I GUESS WHETHER OR NOT THE
MENTALLY ILL ARE BETTER
SERVED THROUGH THE
INSTITUTIONALIZATION,
I THINK THAT ANYONE WHO
WALKED THROUGH PARKDALE
WOULD SAY THEY HAVE BEEN
VERY BADLY SERVED
BY THE
DE-INSTITUTIONALIZATION.

Steve says BECAUSE
COMMUNITY SUPPORTS
WEREN'T THERE.

Mac continues
THAT'S RIGHT AND I THINK
THAT WHEN WE LOOKED AT
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST
GO ROUND OF HOSPITAL
RESTRUCTURING, HEALTHCARE
RESTRUCTURING,
I THINK THERE WAS AN
EFFORT TO TRY TO AT LEAST
PUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE
IN PLACE OR THE FUNDING
FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE
IN PLACE TO ENSURE
THAT WE DIDN'T MAKE
THAT MISTAKE AGAIN.

Steve says RICHARD.

Richard says IT'S THE EXACT SAME
ARGUMENT THAT WE HAD
WITH THE HEALTH CARE
SYSTEM GENERALLY,
AND PSYCHIATRIC SYSTEM IN
THAT SENSE IS NO DIFFERENT.
THE GOVERNMENT CLOSED
HOSPITALS BEFORE WE HAD
THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTS IN
PLACE THAT DEAL WITH THEM.
I'M ON THE BOARD OF THE
ROYAL OTTAWA HEALTH CARE
FOUNDATION, WHICH IS
THE PSYCHIATRIC
HOSPITAL IN OTTAWA.
WE'VE HAD TO TAKE
IN A NUMBER OF NEW
RESPONSIBILITIES, INCLUDING
AS A RESULT OF
THE CLOSURE IN BROCKVILLE,
AND 30 OR 40 YEARS AGO,
MOST OF THESE PEOPLE
WOULD HAVE BEEN
INSTITUTIONALIZED.
THAT WAS WRONG AND WE'VE
HAD THIS VERY POSITIVE
MOVE TOWARDS
DE-INSTITUTIONALIZATION
WHICH I THINK
IS A GREAT IDEA.
WE DON'T YET HAVE IN
OUR COMMUNITY OR IN
ANY COMMUNITY THE PROPER
ALTERNATIVES TO
DE-INSTITUTIONALIZATION THAT
WILL HELP THESE PEOPLE.
WHY NOT?

Ruth says CAN I GO ON THAT?

Steve says RUTH, GO AHEAD.

Ruth says WE DON'T HAVE BECAUSE
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN
PREPARED TO PUT OUT
THE MONEY THAT IS
REQUIRED AHEAD OF TIME.
YOU HAVE TO FUND
THE COMMUNITY SUPPORT
SYSTEM BEFORE YOU
CLOSE THE BEDS,
AND YOU'D PROBABLY FIND
CONSENSUS EVERYWHERE
THAT GETTING PEOPLE OUT
OF THE BIG MENTAL HEALTH
INSTITUTIONS IS BETTER,
AS LONG AS THERE
ARE THE SUPPORTS.
THERE HAS TO BE
SOME BALANCE,
AND SOME OF THAT 60 MILLION
DOLLARS HAS GONE TO BUILDING
NEW FACILITIES IN THE OTHER
HOSPITALS THAT ARE GOING
TO ACCEPT THE PATIENTS
FROM THE CLOSED ONES.

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.

Ruth continues
THE MENTAL HEALTH
ASSOCIATION ESTIMATES
YOU NEED 300 MILLION DOLLARS OUT
THERE IN COMMUNITY SUPPORTS
IN ORDER TO MEET THE
NEED OF THE CLOSURES,
AND THE GOVERNMENT IS
NOT PREPARED TO PUT
THAT MONEY OUT THERE.

Diana says WHATEVER MONEY
THEY DO, I'M SORRY,
WHATEVER MONEY THEY DO,
THEY HAVE PUT THROUGH
THEIR COMMUNITY
RE-INVESTMENT FUND
HAS GONE LARGELY TO VERY
MEDICAL MODELLED BASED
WAYS OF PROVIDING SUPPORT.
NUMBER ONE, MEDICATION.
WELL, IF YOU'RE ON THE
STREET AND YOU'RE HUNGRY,
NO AMOUNT OF MEDICATION IS
GOING TO MAKE YOU HEALTHY
OR HAPPY OR CONTENT
IN ANY WAY OR MEANS.
THE SERVICES THAT ARE BEING
PROVIDED IN THE COMMUNITY,
OFTEN A LOT OF THE NEW
SERVICES THAT ARE OUT THERE
NOW ARE BEING DELIVERED BY
PEOPLE WHO HAVE 20 TO
30 YEARS EXPERIENCE IN
A HOSPITAL SETTING.
NOW HOW ARE THESE FOLKS
GOING TO WORK WITH THE
FOLKS IN THE
DONUT SHOPS
OR UNDER THE BRIDGE?
THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH
HAS TO SORT OF LOOK
AT A DIFFERENT WAY - HAS TO
LISTEN TO THEIR CLIENTELE.
HAS TO LISTEN TO THE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
THROUGH THE SYSTEM.

Richard says I THINK QUICKLY THE REASON
WHY THAT HASN'T HAPPENED
IS THE VERY REASON YOU
POINTED OUT AT THE BEGINNING
OF THE SHOW.
WE HAVE GOT TO COME TO
GRIPS WITH SOCIETY
REMOVING THE STIGMA
AROUND MENTAL HEALTH.
IT'S NOT AS ATTRACTIVE FOR
A GOVERNMENT TO INVEST
IN THINGS LIKE THIS AS
IT IS IN HEALTHCARE
OR THE EDUCATION, CANCER,
ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF.

Ruth says THIS GOVERNMENT IS
PREPARED ALWAYS TO INVEST
IN MORE POLICE OFFICERS AND
FIRE THE SOCIAL WORKERS
AND FOR MANY OF THE MENTALLY
ILL WHO ARE ON THE STREET,
WHO NEED SUPPORT, THEY HAVE
TO HAVE A PERSON IN THEIR
LIVES THAT THEY CAN RELATE
TO AND THAT THEY CAN
LEARN TO TRUST, AND
THAT'S THE FIRST STEP.

Priscilla says THAT'S PART OF THE
COMMUNITY ASSISTED CARE
THAT IS ONE OF THE MODELS
THAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT
AND I THINK HAS TO BE
ENDORSED IS THAT
IT WILL PROVIDE THOSE
FRAMEWORKS AND SUPPORT.
THE FACT IS WE HAVE TO
INSIST THAT THEY'RE THERE.

Diana says WE DON'T BELIEVE
THAT THESE PACK TEAMS
IN FACT WILL
PROVIDE THE SUPPORT
AND WE'RE QUITE
CONCERNED ABOUT,
I THINK IT'S 36 MILLION DOLLARS
HAS BEEN INVESTED OVER
THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF
INTO THE ESTABLISHMENT
OF THESE CARE TEAMS BASED
ON AN AMERICAN MODEL.

Steve says WHAT DO THEY DO,
DIANA, EXPLAIN.

Diana says AGGRESSIVE COURSE OF CASE
MANAGEMENT WHEREBY
AN INDIVIDUAL WITH A MENTAL
HEALTH LABEL WILL BE -
WILL GET A TEAM OF PEOPLE
WHO ARE TO RESPOND TO THEM,
AND TO BE CLIENT CENTRED.
TO ME IT WOULD
MAKE ME SHUDDER.
WE ALL KNOW THAT WHEN YOU
HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS,
YOU'RE NOT ALWAYS
LISTENED TO FIRSTLY.
WHEN YOU ARE LISTENED
TO, PEOPLE THINK
IT'S YOUR ILLNESS.
THERE IS LEGISLATION
THAT WITHIN EACH TEAM
THERE HAS TO BE A PART-TIME
PEER SUPPORT PERSON.
IT'S VERY HARD TO
TALK TO A DOCTOR.
WHEN YOU GO TO A DOCTOR'S
OFFICE, WHEN I DO,
EVEN THE GENERAL
PRACTITIONER,
I WRITE DOWN MY QUESTIONS
BECAUSE THEY WANT
YOU IN AND OUT.
WELL, IF YOU'RE GOING WITH
A MENTAL ILLNESS LABEL
AND YOU'RE SITTING IN A ROOM
FULL OF PROFESSIONALS,
IT'S VERY HARD TO
ASSERT YOURSELF.
BUT THIS IS A MODEL
FROM THE STATES.
THERE WAS NO
CONSULTATION.
I SIT ON THE ONTARIO
PROVINCIAL ADVISORY
COMMITTEE WHICH IS ALL
STAKEHOLDER GROUPS,
LABOUR'S REPRESENTED.
FAMILY MEMBERS
ARE REPRESENTED.
SERVICE PROVIDERS
ARE REPRESENTED.
WE ALL EXPRESSED CONCERN
ABOUT THIS INFLUX
INTO ONE
PARTICULAR MODEL.
ONE MODEL DOESN'T WORK.

Steve says DIANA, LET ME GET IN
HERE FOR A SECOND.
I KNOW YOU BELIEVE THERE'S
A BETTER SUCCESS RATE
IN DEALING WITH PATIENTS
WITH MENTAL ILLNESS
IF THE PATIENT IS ONSIDE
WITH THE TREATMENT.

Diana says ABSOLUTELY.

Steve continues
BUT YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THERE
HAVE GOTTA BE CASES OUT
THERE WHERE THE PATIENT'S
CONSENT ISN'T ALWAYS GOING
TO BE THERE AND YOU NEED
TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Diana says IF THEY BECOME A DANGER,
THERE'S THE MENTAL HEALTH ACT.
PERIOD, FULL STOP.

Priscilla says THE THING IS, I DON'T THINK

I REALLY HATE TO TALK
ABOUT IT MEDICALLY BUT
JUST FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN
HEARING IN COURT AND SO
ON, AND DISCUSSING
IT WITH PSYCHIATRISTS,
IS THAT THE COMPLIANCE
AND THE ABILITY TO REACH
A RATIONAL DECISION,
I DON'T THINK - YOU
SHOULDN'T WAIT UNTIL
THEY PRESENT A DANGER.
THAT THERE ARE VERY OFTEN
ESCALATING PATTERNS
OF BEHAVIOUR WHICH REQUIRE -
OFTEN REQUIRE SOME SORT
OF MEDICAL INTERVENTION TO
STABILIZE THEM AND IF THEY
ARE INCAPABLE OF MAKING
THAT DECISION THEMSELVES,
THEN THERE ARE
ADVOCATES AND SO ON WHO
CAN MAKE SUBSTITUTE
DECISION MAKERS.

Diana says SO WHY DON'T WE FORCE DRINKERS
THEN TO GO ON ANTABUSE?
WE DON'T DO THAT.
ALCOHOL IS THE NUMBER ONE
PREDICTOR OF VIOLENCE
AND WE DON'T INSIST THAT
EVERYONE WITH A DWI
HAS TO GO ON AN ANTABUSE
PROGRAM, DO WE?
NO, WE DON'T.

Steve says MAC'S CELL PHONE
REMINDS ME,
WE'VE GOT 40 SECONDS
LEFT AND I LITERALLY
NEED FROM EACH OF YOU
A VERY BRIEF ANSWER.
IT LOOKS LIKE, AS WE TRY TO
UNDERSTAND THE BALANCE
HERE BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS
AND THE SOCIETY'S RIGHTS,
IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S TRENDING
MORE TOWARDS SOCIETY'S RIGHTS.
MIKE HARRIS JUST GOT
ELECTED WITH A MAJORITY
GOVERNMENT ON A PRETTY
TOUGH PLATFORM ON THIS.
WOULD YOU AGREE
WITH THAT, DIANA?
WOULD YOU AGREE THE
TREND IS AGAINST YOU,
IS WHAT I'M SAYING.

Diana says THE TREND IS
DEFINITELY AGAINST US.
WE WERE VERY EXCITED
10 YEARS AGO.
WE SAW SOME ACTUAL -
WELL WE BELIEVED
THE WORD REFORM.
NOW, I FEEL LIKE
WE'RE GOING BACK.
PUBLIC OPINION
IS AGAINST US.
TO HAVE THAT LABEL IS THE
WORST TIME TO HAVE THAT
LABEL AND LAST THING,
AGAIN, THE RAGING SPOON,
A-WAY EXPRESS COURIERS,
FRESH START CLEANERS -
800 PEOPLE, MANY OF
WHOM HAVE THAT DIAGNOSIS
WHO ARE WORKING, WHO
ARE HEALTHY AND
ARE CONTRIBUTING TO
SOCIETY.

Steve says PRISCILLA, BRIEFLY
CAN I ASK YOU,
DO YOU THINK THE TREND
WILL HELP IN THE END
MAKE THINGS BETTER?

Priscilla says I JUST HATE THE
ADVERSARIAL NATURE OF IT.
I THINK THAT THERE ARE
SOME PEOPLE WHO NEED
TO BE LOOKED AT,
TRIAGED, IF YOU WILL,
WHO ARE ACUTE CARE PEOPLE,
AND THE VAST MAJORITY
I THINK WE NEED TO
SUPPORT, AND HOPEFULLY
WE CAN TAKE THAT LABEL AWAY
WHICH HURTS ME AS MUCH AS I -

Steve says OKAY, PRISCILLA DE VILLIERS
AND DIANA CAPPONI,
I THANK BOTH OF YOU FOR
COMING IN TODAY FOR
A DIFFICULT DISCUSSION AND
WE APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.
PANELISTS, WE'LL SEE
YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.
AND THAT'S OUR
PROGRAM FOR THIS WEEK.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Brett Ballah.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 1999, The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #167 "Involuntary Commitment"