Transcript: Show #130 "Tory Tug-of-War" | Jun 28, 1998

The opening sequence rolls. Music plays as clips show politicians and
the Canadian stock market in session, and an animated number 4 appears.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
AND THEY'RE OFF.

A clip shows a politician speaking to a crowd.

He is in his fifties and wears glasses and a black blazer, white
shirt and green tie.

John Clark says BUT A MODERN SOCIETY CANNOT
DO WITHOUT EFFECTIVE,
ACTIVE GOVERNMENT.

Reg is in his fifties and has gray hair and goatee, wears glasses
and a green shirt.

Reg says THE REAL BATTLEGROUND
IS CLEARLY ONTARIO.
AND THAT'S THE
AREA WHERE REFORM
TRIED TO MAKE A
BREAKTHROUGH.
THEY HAVE NOT
BEEN ABLE TO.

Steve says THE RACE FOR THE
PC LEADERSHIP HEATS UP.
BUT WHO CAN BEST WIN
SEAT-RICH ONTARIO?

Steve, Ruth, Jim, Richard and Hugh sit with two guests around a
table in the shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th
reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown
hair. He's wearing a khaki coat over a lilac polo.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN, AND
WELCOME TO OUR FINAL EDITION
OF 4TH READING
FOR THIS SEASON.
THE RACE FOR THE LEADERSHIP
OF THE FEDERAL PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES ROARED INTO
HIGH GEAR THIS WEEK.
FORMER PRIME
MINISTER JOE CLARK
HAS JUMPED INTO
THE FRAY.
ONTARIO HAS OFTEN BEEN
CRITICIZED FOR THINKING
ITSELF THE CENTRE
OF THE UNIVERSE.
BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE
POLITICAL MAP OF THE NATION,
IT'S HARD TO
IGNORE THE FACT
THERE ARE 103
SEATS HERE.
WHO CAN BEST INFLUENCE
THE VOTERS IN ONTARIO,
THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER,
OR THE KID FROM KINGSTON
WHO'S WORKED FOR THREE
FORMER TORY LEADERS?

Hugh appears on a podium with a sign with his name on it.

Steve says FOR A WHILE, IT
SEEMED TO BE THE RACE
NO ONE WANTED TO ENTER.
BUT EVENTUALLY, HUGH SEGAL,
LONG TIME CONSERVATIVE
ACTIVIST AND ADVISOR
FINALLY WEIGHED IN.

Hugh is in his fifties and has brown hair, glasses, and is clean-
shaven. He wears a black blazer, white shirt and silver and black
horizontal stripped tie.

Hugh says IT IS MY PRIVILEGE AND
HONOUR TO ANNOUNCE
MY CANDIDACY FOR
THE LEADERSHIP
OF THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY OF CANADA.

Steve says AND HE WASTED
LITTLE TIME ESTABLISHING
HIMSELF AS A MODERATE
CONSERVATIVE.

Hugh says WE WILL MAKE THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY
INTO THE COMPELLING
ALTERNATIVE FOR ALL CANADIANS
LOOKING FOR A MORE
SENSITIVE, EFFECTIVE,
OPEN AND DEMOCRATIC
NATIONAL GOVERNMENT.
AND WE WILL BUILD THAT
ALTERNATIVE IN A WAY
WHERE ALL CANADIANS
CAN FEEL COMFORTABLE
WITH A MODERATE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY,
THAT SEEKS TO BRING
PEOPLE TOGETHER.

Steve says IT WASN'T LONG UNTIL
SEGAL WAS JOINED IN THE
RACE BY BRIAN PALISTER,
A FORMER MINISTER IN
MANITOBA'S CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT.

A clip shows Brian speaking at a podium and then Joe as well being
greeted on another podium.

Steve says AND THIS WEEK, JOE CLARK
ANNOUNCED THAT HE, TOO,
WANTS TO LEAD
THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES AGAIN.
THAT COULD POSE PROBLEMS
FOR SEGAL SINCE RIGHTLY
OR WRONGLY, HE AND CLARK
ARE SEEN TO BE ATTRACTING
THE SAME TYPE OF MODERATE
CONSERVATIVE VOTER.

Joe says WITH OUR GEOGRAPHY,
OUR QUALITY OF LIFE,
OUR HISTORY, OUR
HOPES, OUR OBLIGATION,
THIS WILL ALWAYS BE
A HIGH-COST COUNTRY.
IT IS LEGITIMATE AND
NECESSARY TO DEBATE
THE PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT
IN THIS NEW MILLENNIUM.
GOVERNMENTS
NATURALLY OVERREACH,
AND OFTEN THEY ARE WRONG.
BUT A MODERN SOCIETY CANNOT
DO WITHOUT EFFECTIVE,
ACTIVE GOVERNMENT.

Steve says NO MATTER WHO WINS,
THIS POLITICAL SCIENTIST
SAYS HE KNOWS WHERE THE
NEXT ELECTION MUST BE WON.

The caption changes to "Reg. Whittaker. Political Scientist York
University."

Reg says THE REAL BATTLEGROUND
IS CLEARLY ONTARIO.
AND THAT'S THE ONTARIO
WHERE REFORM TRIED
TO MAKE A BREAKTHROUGH.
THEY HAVE NOT
BEEN ABLE TO.
THEY HAVE SIMPLY RUN
INTO A WALL IN ONTARIO.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND,
THEY'VE BEEN ABLE
TO PREVENT THE
CONSERVATIVES FROM MAKING
RECOVERY IN ONTARIO.

A crowd wearing nametags sings the national Canadian anthem.

™ OUR HOME AND NATIVE LAND ™

Steve says OF COURSE, THERE'S
A HUGE DEBATE IN THE TORY
PARTY AS TO WHETHER A
MERGER WITH REFORM WOULD
HELP DERAIL LIBERAL
ASPIRATIONS IN ONTARIO.
SPLITTING THE RIGHT OF
CENTRE VOTE HAS ALLOWED
THE FEDERAL LIBERALS TO
WIN VIRTUALLY EVERY SEAT
IN ONTARIO FOR THE LAST
TWO CONSECUTIVE
FEDERAL ELECTIONS.

The caption changes to "Tony Clement. ONT. PC Cabinet Minister."

Tony is in his forties and wears glasses and has wavy brown hair. He
wears a gray suit, blue and white shirt and orange, green and red
flower tie.

Tony says I HONESTLY
THINK THERE'S A LOT
OF LIBERAL VOTES THERE
THAT VOTED LIBERAL
BECAUSE THERE'S NO
COHERENT ALTERNATIVE.
SO BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION
PARTIES FAILED PARTICULARLY
IN ONTARIO, TO PUT
FORWARD A COHERENT MENU
OF CHOICES THAT WERE
AVAILABLE TO DECIDE.
AND BECAUSE THERE WAS A
SPLINTERING OF THE NON-LIBERAL
PARTIES EVEN IN
ONTARIO, PEOPLE SAID,
WELL, I GUESS
I'M A LIBERAL.

A clip shows Preston greeting a crowd at a rally and then getting on
stage.

Steve says PRESTON MANNING
HAS ALREADY DUBBED IT
A UNITED ALTERNATIVE
TO THE LIBERALS.
BOTH FRONT RUNNERS IN
THE LEADERSHIP RACE,
CLARK AND SEGAL HAVE
CRITICIZED REFORM POLICIES
IN THE PAST, MAKING A
RAPPROCHEMENT UNLIKELY.
AND THEY QUITE CORRECTLY
POINT OUT THAT EVEN
IF YOU COMBINED THE
TORY AND REFORM VOTES
IN THE LAST ELECTION,
THE LIBERALS WOULD STILL
HAVE WON MOST OF THE
RIDINGS IN ONTARIO.
IT ALL MAKES FOR A RATHER
DAUNTING CHALLENGE
FOR THE NEXT TORY LEADER.
SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T
PHASE THIS HUGH SEGAL VOTER.

The caption changes to "Dianne Cunningham. Ont. PC Cabinet
Minister."

Dianne is in her fifties and has blonde pixie cut hair and wears
glasses, black blazer and a checkered black and gray blouse with an
eyelet.

Dianne says I WOULD SAY THAT Mr. SEGAL
IS THE KIND OF PEOPLE
THAT INSPIRES PEOPLE
TO WORK TOGETHER.
HIS GREAT STRENGTH IS
BRINGING PEOPLE ONSIDE.
NOW THAT POSES A BIT OF A
CHALLENGE, THAT'S TRUE.
BUT HE IS A PERSON WHO
CAN GET CANADIANS
TO GO BACK TO OUR
TRADITIONAL ROOTS,
AS PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES.

Reg says I WOULD THINK THE LIBERALS'
WORST WORRY WOULD BE
THAT PRESTON MANNING'S VISION
OF A UNITED ALTERNATIVE
WOULD ACTUALLY
COME TO FRUITION.
THEY'D BE MUCH LESS
WORRIED IF THEY SEE
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
CHOOSE A LEADER WHO IS
GOING TO CONTINUE TO SHARPEN
THE DIVISIONS BETWEEN
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
AND THE REFORM PARTY.

Steve says SO WHAT IS THE KEY TO
GARNERING AND DEVELOPING
CONSERVATIVE
SUPPORT IN ONTARIO?
LET'S ASK JOE CLARK'S
CHIEF CHALLENGER.
HERE'S HUGH SEGAL,
FORMER TOP ADVISOR
TO CONSERVATIVE
LEADER STANFIELD,
DAVIS AND MULRONEY,
AND ONCE UPON A TIME,
A GUY WHO SAT RIGHT THERE,
IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
WELCOME.

WELCOME.
WELCOME BACK,
I SHOULD SAY.

Hugh has brown hair and glasses and wears a black blazer, white
shirt, and red and blue tie.

Hugh says WELL, THANK YOU FOR
WELCOMING ME, STEVE.
NICE TO BE HERE.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She wears a
purple blouse with pearl earrings and necklace.

Steve says YOU KNOW
OUR GANG OVER HERE.
HERE'S RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER
FROM 1990 TO '95.
FROM THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM FRASER AND BEATTY,
THERE'S A PAST PRESIDENT
OF THE ONTARIO LIBERALS,
RICHARD MAHONEY.

Richard Mahoney is in his fifties and has gray hair and is clean-
shaven. He wears a gray blazer, a light blue shirt and a blue
patterned tie.

Steve continues AND FROM GPC, GOVERNMENT
POLICY CONSULTANTS,
THERE'S MAC PENNEY.

Mac is in his fifties and has gray short hair and is clean-shaven.
He wears a gray blazer, white shirt, and pink and red shirt.

Steve says ANECDOTES DON'T
OFTEN TELL YOU A LOT,
BUT LET ME TRY THIS ANYWAY
AND SEE WHERE WE GO.
TALKING TO A GROUP OF
PEOPLE THE OTHER DAY
WHO ARE SMALL C CONSERVATIVE,
BUSINESS-TYPES.
MENTIONED JOE CLARK WAS
GETTING INTO THE RACE,
I FOUND THAT INTERESTING,
CLARK VERSUS SEGAL,
WE'VE GOT SOMETHING GOING
HERE, WE'VE GOT A STORY.
YOU'RE CONSERVATIVES, I
IMAGINE YOU'RE GOING TO WANT
TO BUY A PARTY
MEMBERSHIP AND GET
IN THERE AND GET
INVOLVED, VOTE, PARTAKE.
NOPE.
THEY WEREN'T THE
SLIGHTEST BIT INTERESTED.
I SAID, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE
CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE,
WHY AREN'T YOU GETTING
IN THERE AND HELPING
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY?
WE DON'T CARE.
WE'RE NOT INTERESTED.
THEY'RE FIFTH PLACE,
THEY'RE IRRELEVANT NOW.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM,
AND I ASSUME THE HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
LIKE THEM IN THIS COUNTRY
WHO THINK YOU'RE NOT
IMPORTANT TO ANYTHING
ANYMORE IN THIS COUNTRY?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. PC Leadership Candidate."

Hugh says WELL, I WOULD SAY
TO THEM IS YOU GET
THE GOVERNMENT
YOU DESERVE.
AND IF YOU ABDICATE
YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO
PARTICIPATE IN THE
SYSTEM, THEN YOU'RE GOING
TO HAVE CONTINUATION OF THE
KIND OF NATIONAL GOVERNMENT
WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE IN
THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY,
PEOPLE IN THE
SOCIAL SERVICES,
PEOPLE IN THE
VOLUNTEER COMMUNITY,
ARE VERY TROUBLED BY,
WHICH IS THE PRESENT
GOVERNMENT OF CANADA.
I WOULD ALSO SAY TO THEM
THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN
ACHIEVE A STRONG NATIONAL
ALTERNATIVE IS IF WE HAVE
A MODERATE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY THAT IS A PARTY OF IDEAS,
IS A PARTY THAT IS OPEN
TO FOLKS FROM ALL SIDES
OF THE SPECTRUM, THAT
SEEKS TO BUILD A COALITION
THAT IS FOCUSSED
ON SOCIAL JUSTICE
AND ECONOMIC
OPPORTUNITY.
AND THAT A BUSINESS PERSON
WHO NEEDS STABILITY,
AND A FRAME OF REFERENCE
WITHIN WHICH ONE CAN INVEST,
MAKE A FAIR RETURN,
FAIR TAX SYSTEM,
NEEDS A NATIONAL
DEBT MANAGED DOWN
SO IT'S NOT PROBLEMATIC,
SHOULD BE VERY MUCH IN SUPPORT
OF THAT KIND OF
OPTION FOR CANADA.
THAT'S WHAT I
WOULD SAY TO THAT.
Steve says JOE CLARK'S IN NOW.
AND I'VE GOT TO
ASSUME SOMEWHERE, HUGH,
IF YOU'RE BEING
REALLY HONEST,
THINK THAT'S NOT
A GREAT THING.
YOU COULD HAVE WALKED
RIGHT TO THE LEADERSHIP
AND WON IT EASILY IF JOE
CLARK HADN'T BEEN IN.
HE'S IN NOW, IT'S GOING TO
BE A LOT HARDER FOR YOU.

Hugh says STEVE, CANADIANS ARE
PRETTY SOPHISTICATED.
AND IF THEY SEE SOMEONE WIN
THE LEADERSHIP WITHOUT
A MEANINGFUL FIGHT, WITHOUT
A MEANINGFUL RACE,
THEN THE VALUE OF WHAT
WAS WON WOULD, I THINK,
BE IN SOME RESPECT
BE DEVALUED.
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT
WE HAVE A VERY TOUGH
AND COMPETITIVE RACE.
ONE THAT I THINK SHOULD BE
ABOUT IDEAS AND POLICY
AND DIFFERENT VISIONS
OF THE COUNTRY.
I THINK IT SHOULD BE A
RACE IN, WHICH WE INVITE
OUR FELLOW CANADIANS
TO PARTICIPATE.
WE'RE THE ONLY NATIONAL
PARTY THAT SAYS TO FOLKS
YOU CAN JOIN UP AND VOTE
DIRECTLY FOR THE LEADER
IN OUR NEW SYSTEM.
AND I THINK IF IT'S NOT
ABOUT IDEAS THAT MATTER
TO PEOPLE IN THEIR
DAY-TO-DAY LIVES,
THEN IT WILL TRULY
WILL BE IRRELEVANT.
WHAT IT MUSTN'T BE IS A
KIND OF INTERNECINE TRIBAL
BATTLE BETWEEN GROUP A
TORIES, GROUP B TORIES,
SOME WHO WANT TO DRIFT
A TOUCH TO THE RIGHT,
SOME WHO WANT TO DRIFT
A TOUCH TO THE LEFT,
SOME WHO WANT TO DO
A DEAL WITH REFORM,
SOME WHO WANT TO HAVE
A BROADER TENT
EVEN THAN THAT.
IT SHOULD BE A DEBATE ABOUT
ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE
IN THEIR DAY-TO-DAY LIVES,
HEALTHCARE, JOBS,
TAXES, SAFE COMMUNITIES.
THAT'S WHAT IT
SHOULD BE ABOUT,
AND THAT'S WHAT I'M
DETERMINED TO MAKE
IT ABOUT IF I
POSSIBLY CAN.

Steve says SHOULD WE GIVE YOU AN
OPPORTUNITY TO LOBBY
FOR THE ONLY TORY
VOTE THAT WE KNOW OF
AT THIS TABLE
RIGHT NOW?
YOU KNOW, MAC, YOU HANG
OUT IN TORY CIRCLES.
HOW ENERGIZED ARE
TORY SUPPORTERS,
OF WHICH YOU ARE ONE, BY
THE LEADERSHIP RACE
THAT NOW PRESENTS ITSELF?
SEGAL VERSUS CLARK
VERSUS A BUNCH OF OTHERS
WHO ARE MUCH LESS
WELL KNOWN?

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ont. PC Advisor."

Mac says I THINK IT'S
EARLY DAYS YET,
AND THE START OF
SUMMER AS WELL,
SO I'M NOT SURE
PEOPLE ARE ENERGIZED
BY VERY MUCH
POLITICALLY.
I THINK WITH Mr. CLARK
NOW IN THE RACE,
THE MORE HORSES
YOU HAVE, I THINK
THE MORE INTERESTING
THE RACE BECOMES.
I THINK THERE WILL
BE, OVER THE SUMMER
AND IN THE EARLY FALL,
THERE'LL BE A LOT OF INTEREST,
ESPECIALLY IN ONTARIO
ABOUT HOW THIS RACE GOES.
I THINK AS WAS
IN THE INTRO,
THIS IS SEEN AS THE
BATTLEGROUND BETWEEN
REFORM AND THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY.
AND IT'LL BE WHERE REFORM
EITHER MAKES IT OR BREAKS IT
AS A NATIONAL PARTY.

Steve says THIS GUY
GOT A SHOT?

Mac says I THINK Mr. SEGAL
PUT IT QUITE WELL,
IF I HEARD HIM CORRECTLY
A FEW WEEKS AGO,
HE'LL HAVE TO PROBABLY
WORK A LITTLE
HARDER THAN SOME.
HE'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO
WORK A LOT LONGER HOURS
THAN SOME, BUT I THINK
HE'S GOT A SHOT.

Steve says THERE'S A GREAT RESERVOIR
OF SUPPORT OUT THERE FOR
JOE CLARK, YOU KNOW THAT,
AS ALL FORMER
TORY LEADERS IN
THIS COUNTRY HAVE.
WHAT DO YOU DO
ABOUT THAT?

Hugh says WELL, YOU RECOGNIZE THE
REALITY FOR WHAT IT IS,
AND REALIZE YOU HAVE
TO DO WHAT MAC SAID.
REMEMBER, WE HAD 120,000
MEMBERS OF THE PARTY
AS OF DECEMBER 1997.
LESS THAN 15,000
HAVE RENEWED SO FAR.
WE HAVE ANOTHER SIX MONTHS
FOR THOSE RENEWALS
TO TAKE PLACE.
WE ALSO HAVE TO, IF WE'RE
GOING TO BE TRUE
TO OUR PARTY'S MISSION TO
SERVE THE COUNTRY,
REACH OUT AND INVITE A
WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO
HAVE NEVER BEEN MEMBERS OF
THE TORY PARTY TO JOIN.
SO THE ELECTORATE THAT WILL
ACTUALLY MAKE THE DECISION
IS NOT YET IN
PLACE, AND WILL BE
OVER THE NEXT FOUR
OR FIVE MONTHS.
SO I THINK THE ISSUE IS
NOT WHETHER THERE'S
A RESERVOIR OF GOODWILL
TOWARDS JOE OR ANYBODY ELSE,
THE ISSUE IS WHAT WE
ALL DO AS CANDIDATES
TO BROADEN THE BASE
AND THE REACH,
AND BRING PEOPLE
INTO THE PARTY,
AND FOR WHAT REASONS.
I THINK POLICY
IS IMPORTANT.
I NOTICED IN A DECIMA POLL
THAT SOUTHAM RAN THAT
WHEN ASKED ABOUT HOW THEY
MIGHT VOTE IN ONTARIO,
CONSERVATIVE VOTERS IN
ONTARIO HAD A VERY STRONG
PREFERENCE FOR
ME AS LEADER,
AS OPPOSE TODAY
Mr. CLARK.
I DON'T THINK THAT IS
PARTICULARLY INDICATIVE
OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN HOW
PEOPLE MIGHT FEEL TODAY.
I THINK THAT MAY
CHANGE DRAMATICALLY.
WE ALL HAVE TO WORK
VERY, VERY HARD
AND I INTEND TO LEAVE
NO STONE UNTURNED
IN TERMS OF
BROADENING THE BASE.
I ALSO HOPE IT'S
ABOUT POLICY.
Mr. CLARK WILL HAS A SERIES OF
PERSONALITY TRAITS WHICH
ARE STRONG AND COMPELLING,
I MAY HAVE ONE OR TWO.
THE REAL QUESTION WILL BE
WHAT OUR VIEWS ARE ABOUT
THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY
AND THE PRIORITIES
OUR PARTY SHOULD
BE ADVANCING.
WE HAVE AN OPEN POLITICAL
PROCESS IN THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY, AS DO OTHERS.
OUR FINAL PLATFORM WILL
BE PUT TOGETHER
BY THE MEMBERSHIP IN
A LARGE OPEN POLICY
CONFERENCE, WHICH IS
WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN.
BUT I THINK EVERYBODY
RUNNING FOR THIS LEADERSHIP
SHOULD SHARE
THEIR POLICY BIASES
AND THEIR PRIORITIES
WITH THE PUBLIC,
WITH THE MEMBERSHIP
BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE
HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW THAT
IF THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE
A JUDGMENT BASED ON
PEOPLE'S CAPACITY TO LEAD,
PEOPLE'S BELIEF
IN CERTAIN ISSUES,
AND THE CONTRIBUTION
THEY CAN MAKE.

Steve says YOU'RE ORGANIZED
A COUPLE OF ELECTIONS
IN ONTARIO, YOU KNOW THIS
PROVINCE PRETTY WELL,
ALBEIT FOR A DIFFERENT
PARTY THAN HUGH.
IN 1979, WHEN
CLARK RAN AND WON,
AS THE LEADER OF
THE CONSERVATIVES,
HE WON 57 SEATS
IN ONTARIO,
WHICH WASN'T TOO
BAD BACK THEN.
IT WAS ENOUGH TO GET HIM
A MINORITY GOVERNMENT.
WHO DO YOU THINK IS BETTER
PLACED TO WIN CONSERVATIVE
VOTERS' SUPPORT IN ONTARIO,
SEGAL FROM ONTARIO,
OR CLARK A GUY WHO
UNDERSTANDS THE COUNTRY
AS WELL AS ANYBODY?

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ont. Liberal Advisor."

Richard says WELL, I THINK THAT FIRST
OF ALL 57 SEATS IN 1979
WAS 19 YEARS AGO,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, WE HAD
A COUNTRY WHO WERE
ESSENTIALLY FED UP WITH
THE TRUDEAU YEARS
AND WANTED A CHANGE.
AND Mr. CLARK WAS THE
LEADER OF THE PARTY
THAT REPRESENTED THAT
CHANGE, ALBEIT A BRIEF ONE.
I THINK AT THIS
POINT IN TIME,
ANY POLL YOU SEE OF TORIES
OR ANYONE ELSE THAT MATTER
BECAUSE OF CLARK'S
NAME RECOGNITION
IS GOING TO SHOW CLARK
AS A FAVOURITE.
I THINK IT'S ASTOUNDING
THAT THERE ALREADY IS A POLL
IN ONTARIO THAT
WOULD SHOW HUGH,
WHO I HAVE TO PRESUME
IS NOT AS WELL KNOWN
TO ONTARIANS AS CLARK IS,
HE A FORMER PRIME MINISTER
AND SO FORTH.
I MUST ADMIT I CAN
UNDERSTAND WHY CLARK
HAS SOME ATTRACTION
FOR TORIES,
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE
GETTING THERE.
BUT I HAVE GOT TO SAY,
AS A PARTISAN I ALMOST
WELCOME THE IDEA OF
CLARK AS A LEADER.
AS A FRIEND, I
WISH HUGH THE BEST.
BECAUSE I ACTUALLY
BELIEVE THAT,
AND THIS MAY BE
A TOUCH UNFAIR,
THAT CLARK HAS PROVEN
HIMSELF IN MANY WAYS.
HE'S DONE A LOT
OF GREAT THINGS.
HE'S DONE A LOT FOR PUBLIC
SERVICE FOR CANADA.
HE HAS NOT PROVEN HIMSELF
TO BE AN EFFECTIVE
LEADER OF A MAJOR
POLITICAL PARTY.
HE HAS NOT PROVEN HIMSELF
TO BE AN EFFECTIVE
PRIME MINISTER
OF THIS COUNTRY.
AND THAT IS THE JOB, AFTER
ALL, THEY'RE GOING FOR.
SO I WOULDN'T THINK, THAT
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
BY THE TIME THIS
RACE IS OVER,
THAT HE WOULD BE A VERY
STRONG CHOICE TO GAIN
POLITICAL SUPPORT
IN ONTARIO.
I WOULD THINK IT'S GOING
TO GET HARDER FOR HIM,
NOT EASIER FOR HIM.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I'M NOT SURE IT MAKES
SENSE TO ASK THE QUESTIONS
THAT YOU'RE ASKING
ABOUT ONTARIO.
I THINK OF ALL
THE PROVINCES,
ONTARIO IS THE ONE LEAST
LIKELY TO BE SWAYED
BY WHERE THE LEADER
COMES FROM.
IT'S LESS CHAUVINISTIC THAN
THE WEST OR THE MARITIMES.
THERE MIGHT BE SOME ELEMENT
OF A FAVOURITE SON SUPPORT
FOR HUGH, I WOULD THINK,
IN THE LEADERSHIP RACE.
BUT THEN TAKE IT TO
THE NEXT ELECTION,
AND I THINK WHERE THE
LEADER COMES FROM
IS GOING TO BE IRRELEVANT
TO THE VOTERS.
I MEAN, LE PETIT GARS DE
SHAWINIGAN WON
ALL THE SEATS LAST TIME.
AND I'M REALLY INTERESTED
IN HUGH'S FEELINGS ABOUT
THE METHOD THAT THE
CONSERVATIVES ARE USING
TO ELECT THE LEADER
AND HOW HELPFUL
TO THE PARTY THAT'S
GOING TO BE.
THE ANECDOTE YOU BEGAN WITH
OF PEOPLE BEING DISENGAGED
FROM THE TORY PARTY,
I THINK IS MORE
DISENGAGED FROM
POLITICS.
SO IN A LEADERSHIP RACE,
HAVING TO SIGN UP MEMBERS,
NOT JUST TO GET TO THE
EXISTING MEMBERS AND SAY VOTE
FOR MY CANDIDATE,
WHICH I THINK ARE
THE CAMPAIGNS RICHARD
AND I HAVE MOST BEEN IN,
BUT TO ACTUALLY ATTRACT
PEOPLE FIRST TO POLITICS
AS AN INTEREST,
SECOND TO THE PARTY,
AND THEN TO THE CANDIDATE,
MAKES IT A VERY TOUGH JOB,
DOES IT NOT, HUGH?

Hugh says I THINK IT DOES.
AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK
RICHARD WAS BEING
QUITE NON-PARTISAN WHEN
HE DIDN'T MENTION THAT
THE LIBERALS ARE AT ABOUT
58 PERCENT FEDERALLY
IN ONTARIO, JUST NOW IN
TERMS OF PUBLIC OPINION.
AND THERE'S NO WAY THE
CONSERVATIVE PARTY CAN BE
A STRONG NATIONAL OPTION
UNLESS SOME OF THAT
58 PERCENT DECIDES THEY
ARE GOING TO LOOK AT
THE NEW CONSERVATIVE
LEADER AND HIS POLICIES,
AND THE PARTY'S POLICIES,
AND THINK THAT'S SOMETHING
WORTH GIVING SOME
CONSIDERATION TO.
I THINK THE PROCESS BY
WHICH WE NOW HAVE TO GO
AND GET A LOT OF PEOPLE
TO JOIN THE PARTY,
AND HAVE ONE PERSON, ONE
VOTE DIRECTLY FOR THE LEADER,
RATHER THAN ELECTING
SOME DELEGATES
IN A CHURCH BASEMENT TO
GO TO OTTAWA AND DECIDE
ON BEHALF OF EVERYONE ELSE,
I THINK IS A GOOD PROCESS.
I THINK IT
POPULARIZES OUR PARTY.
IT BROADENS ITS REACH.

Steve says IT WORKED
FOR MIKE HARRIS.

Hugh says IT DID INDEED.

Ruth says IT'S A TOUGH
PART OF THE PROCESS.

Hugh says IT'S NOT EASY.
IT CHANGES THE NATURE, IF
I MAY SAY, OF THE RACE,
AS A CANDIDATE, I AM NOT
THINKING ABOUT WHICH ONE
OF THE MAJOR PARTY
SPOKES PEOPLE I CAN GET
TO BE ON MY SIDE, THAT'S
IMPORTANT OBVIOUSLY.
I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT
GETTING THE MESSAGE
OF THIS CANDIDACY AND WHAT
WE BELIEVE IN TO AS MANY
ONTARIANS AND CANADIANS AS
POSSIBLE SO THEY WANT
TO JOIN OUR POLITICAL
PARTY TO HELP MAKE SOME
OF IT COME ABOUT.
SO IT'S A VERY
DIFFERENT KIND OF RACE.
BUT I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY
A BETTER INDICATOR OF WHAT
MIGHT HAPPEN ELECTORALLY
IN THE COUNTRY BECAUSE
YOU DO HAVE TO ATTRACT
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NOW
MEMBERS OF THE PARTY.
YOU DO HAVE TO
BROADEN THE REACH.
AND IF WE CAN'T DO THAT
IN THE NEXT ELECTION,
WE'RE ACTUALLY NOT GOING
TO MAKE ANY PROGRESS.
SO THIS, I THINK, IS A VERY
GOOD TEST IN THAT REGARD.

Steve says I KNOW YOUR THING HAS
ALWAYS BEEN WE HAVE
TO WORRY LESS ABOUT PICKING
UP THOSE REFORM VOTERS
AND GO WHERE THE VOTES
ARE, AND THE LIBERALS
HAVE THEM RIGHT NOW.
SO BE MORE NATIONAL,
BE MORE MODERATE.
BUT IT'S PROBABLY ALSO TRUE
THAT YOU AND JOE CLARK
ARE TOO MODERATE TO PICK
UP MANY REFORM VOTERS.
WOULD YOU AGREE
WITH THAT?

Hugh says I THINK YOU WILL FIND, IF
YOU ANALYZE Mr. CLARK'S
STATEMENT OF
EARLIER THIS WEEK,
HE DID NOT MENTION
ANYTHING ABOUT TAX CUTS.
HE DID NOT MENTION ANYTHING
ABOUT PAYING DOWN
THE NATIONAL DEBT.
THOSE ARE IMPORTANT PARTS
OF THE BALANCE I THINK
WE HAVE TO GO GOING
FORWARD IN FISCAL
AND SOCIAL POLICY
IN CANADA.
I THINK THAT YOU WILL
FIND PROBABLY A POLITICAL
SPECTRUM THAT SETS ITSELF
UP WITH Mr. CLARK
TO THE LEFT, FRANKLY,
MYSELF MORE TO THE CENTRE,
Mr. PALISTER TO
THE RIGHT OF ME,
AND I THINK THAT'S
NOT INAPPROPRIATE.
I THINK Mr. PALISTER
BROUGHT IN, TO HIS CREDIT,
LEGISLATION THAT WAS OUTLAWED
BUDGETARY DEFICITS
IN MANITOBA AS A
PRIVATE REMEMBER.
HE HAS A STRONG TRADITION
IN THAT REGARD.
HE ALSO COMES
FROM A RURAL BASE,
WHERE OFTEN VIEWS ARE MORE
SMALL C CONSERVATIVE,
WHICH I RESPECT.
AND MR. CLARK CLEARLY
FOCUSSED MUCH MORE ON
THE ISSUE OF CUTBACKS
AND THOSE SORTS
OF THINGS WHICH
ARE APPROPRIATE.
I CARE ABOUT THOSE, BUT I
CARE ABOUT THEM WITHIN
THE CONTEXT OF AN AFFORDABLE
FISCAL CIRCUMSTANCE
THAT DOES NOT IMPERIL OUR
YOUNG PEOPLE'S CAPACITY
TO FIND JOBS, AND HAVE
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES.

Ruth says IT SOUNDS LIKE A RIGHT
WING DIRECTION, HUGH.

Hugh says RUTH, IT'S PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE.
WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM, AND
IT IS A PROBLEM SOMETIMES
BECAUSE FOLKS DON'T
UNDERSTAND, TO BE FAIR,
THAT FOR EVERY PROGRESSIVE
THING WE WANT TO DO
IN TERMS OF SOCIETY, WE
BELIEVE WE HAVE TO HAVE
A FIRM, SOLID FISCAL
AND ECONOMIC BASE
BY WHICH WE CAN
AFFORD IT.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER
THAT'S RIGHT OR WHETHER
THAT'S LEFT, I THINK IT'S
JUST THE APPROPRIATE BALANCE
FOR OUR TIME
ECONOMICALLY AND SOCIALLY.
BUT IT'S NOT A
CHARACTERISTIC THAT
WAS DEMONSTRATED BY PAST
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS,
THE MONEY, Mr. MULRONEY'S,
FOR EXAMPLE, AND OTHERS.
SO IT IS SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
REPRESENTS THE NEW,
MORE RIGHT WING
CONSERVATIVE, SURELY,
THAN THE OLD RED
TORY APPROACH.

Mac says I THINK THE CENTRE
HAS PROBABLY SHIFTED
IN THE INTERVENING
YEARS FROM THE MULRONEY
GOVERNMENT TO TODAY.
I THINK OVERALL THE ENTIRE
SPECTRUM HAS MOVED
A LITTLE BIT TO
THE RIGHT.

Richard says SOME WOULD ARGUE
THE LIBERALS SHIFTED THAT.
UNFAIRLY I WOULD
SUGGEST.

Mac says FAIRLY NOT.

Richard says IT'S PROBABLY JUST A
TEMPORARY SHIFT,
I SUSPECT, FOR
THE LIBERALS.

Steve says AT A RISK OF OVER SIMPLIFY,
IT SOUNDS LIKE Mr. SEGAL
IS OFFERING THE VOTERS
OF THE COUNTRY TAX CUTS,
DEFICIT REDUCTION,
DEBT PAY DOWN,
IT SOUNDS LIKE
HE'S OFFERING
MIKE HARRIS JUST NICER.

Mac says IT'S ROY
ROMANOW, AS WELL.

Richard says OR JEAN
CHRETIEN, PAUL MARTIN.

Hugh says HERE'S ONE
DIFFERENCE, IF I MAY.
I THINK THERE
ARE SOME THINGS,
THIS IS JUST TO GET
RICK ENGAGED HERE,
THAT PAUL MARTIN DOESN'T
FULLY UNDERSTAND.
HE DOESN'T FULLY UNDERSTAND
WHAT CONFISCATORY TAXES
ARE DOING TO YOUNG PEOPLE
LEAVING UNIVERSITY.
HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND HE'S
TOO MUCH OF A CENTRALIST
IN TERMS OF SOCIAL POLICY.
THE SLASHING OF TRANSFER
PAYMENTS TO THE PROVINCES.
I'M IN FAVOUR OF THE
FEDERAL BOOKS BEING
CLEANED UP, BUT NOT AT THE
EXPENSE OF EVERY HOSPITAL
AND UNIVERSITY IN
THE COUNTRY BEING
IN FISCAL CRISIS.
AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING
THOSE THINGS
DIDN'T HAVE TO BE DONE.
THEY COULD HAVE BEEN
DONE IN PARTNERSHIP.
THEY COULD HAVE BEEN
DONE WITHOUT CHANGING
THE TRANSFER SYSTEM ONE YEAR,
CHANGING IT BACK ANOTHER.
PUTTING OUR
PROVINCIAL MINISTERS,
RIGHT ACROSS THE
COUNTRY, INTO A STATE
OF IMMENSE CRISIS.
THAT'S NOT HOW YOU
RUN A FEDERATION.
I THINK FEDERAL LIBERALS,
THE MILLENNIUM FUND
IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE.
THEY JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND
THAT DOING SOMETHING
TOGETHER IN A FASHION THAT
WORKS WITH THE PROVINCES
IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN
IMPOSING A NEW SOLUTION
AT THE EXPENSE OF CUTS
TO EXISTING PROGRAMS,
WHICH IS WHAT
THEY'VE BEEN DOING.

Steve says WITH TIME RUNNING OUT,
LET ME GET A FEW QUICKIES
IN WITH YOU HERE.

Richard says I DON'T GET
TO RESPOND TO THAT.

Steve says WELL, 'COS WE KNOW
WHAT YOU'D SAY.

Mac says YOU'LL HAVE THAT
SHOW YOU'VE BEEN
WAITING FOR FOR
FOUR YEARS.
ARE ALL THE
CANDIDATES IN?

Hugh says NO, I THINK THERE'S
ONE OR TWO YET TO COME.

Steve says STEVEN HARPER
STILL TO COME?

Hugh says I DON'T THINK HE'LL
BE A CANDIDATE.

Steve says NO?
WHO ELSE?

Hugh says I THINK JIM SOLIER, THE
FORMER REFORM MEMBER
OF PARLIAMENT FROM
CALGARY IS GIVING IT
VERY SERIOUS THOUGHT.
AND HE WOULD BE A REFORMER
WHO IS COMING BACK
TO THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY.
SO I THINK HIS CANDIDACY
WOULD BE VERY CONSTRUCTIVE
AND VERY POSITIVE.
AND I THINK THERE'S STILL
A POSSIBILITY OF A FELLOW
FROM MONTREAL,
WHO'S A LAWYER.

Steve says FORTIER?

Hugh says BUT I HAVEN'T HEARD
ANYTHING FURTHER ON THAT.

Steve says OKAY.
BRIAN MULRONEY, YOU
USED TO WORK FOR HIM,
HE'S PUBLICLY SAID HE
HOPES CLARK GETS IN,
AND HE HASN'T SO MUCH
AS SAID I ENDORSE
JOE CLARK, BUT HE'D
LIKE CLARK TO GET IN.

Richard says I THINK THAT
VAULTS SEGAL RIGHT INTO
FIRST PLACE, ACTUALLY,
WITH THE MULRONEY
ENDORSEMENT FOR CLARK.

Steve says HAVE YOU SOUGHT
MULRONEY'S ENDORSEMENT?
DO YOU EXPECT
TO GET IT?

Hugh says I HAVEN'T SOUGHT
ANY OF OUR FORMER
LEADERS' ENDORSEMENTS.
I SPOKE WITH ALL OUR
FORMER LEADERS BEFORE
I ANNOUNCED OUT
OF COURTESY.
THEY WERE ALL ENCOURAGING
AND FRIENDLY.
NONE OF THEM INDICATED
THEY WERE GOING TO
BE TAKING SIDES IN ANY
WAY, SHAPE OR FORM,
SO IF HE ENDS UP
SUPPORTING Mr. CLARK,
I GUESS I'D BE SURPRISED,
BUT IT'S HIS PRIVILEGE
TO SUPPORT WHO HE WANTS.

Steve says YOU GOING TO WIN?

Hugh says I THINK SO.

Steve says YOU THINK SO?

Hugh says I ACTUALLY DO.
I THINK THIS IS ABOUT
GENERATIONAL CHANGE
IN THE PARTY.
I THINK IT'S ABOUT A LOT
OF YOUNG PEOPLE TAKING
A MUCH STRONGER ROLE
IN OUR SOCIETY.
I THINK IT'S ABOUT
A LARGER COALITION.
AND I THINK IT'S ABOUT
POLICY AND IDEAS,
AND THE ENERGY LEVEL
NECESSARY
FOR A POLICY-CENTRED
LEADERSHIP TO REBUILD
A NATIONAL COALITION.
AND I BELIEVE THAT I
WILL BE BEST SUITED TO
DO THAT OR ELSE I
WOULDN'T BE IN THE RACE.

Steve says GOOD LUCK.
AND SAFE TIDINGS
ON THE TRAIL.

Hugh says THANK YOU.

Steve says HUGH SEGAL - FROM ALL
OF THEM, OF COURSE.
COMING UP, TEACHERS AND
TORIES TO TANGLE AGAIN.

The caption changes to "Don Hinchley. High School Teacher."

Don is in his fifties and has a white beard and moustache and wears
glasses and a white shirt with gray stripes.

Don says THAT EXTRA CLASS MEANS WE
WON'T HAVE TIME DURING
THE DAY TO MARK,
WHICH MEANS WE HAVE
TO TAKE THE
MARKING HOME.
TEACHERS WILL BE TIRED.
AND WE WON'T HAVE THE
ENERGY TO DO THE EXTRA
THINGS SUCH AS THE
SPORTS PROGRAMS.
AND STUDENTS
WILL SUFFER.

The caption changes to "Dave Johnson. Education Minister."

Dave is in his fifties and has brown hair that is parted to the side
and he wears a black blazer, white shirt and black tie with green
diamonds.

Dave says OUR AGENDA IS ONE OF
A BETTER CURRICULUM.
OUR AGENDA IS ONE OF MORE
MONEY IN THE CLASSROOM,
MORE MONEY FOR TEACHERS,
MORE MONEY FOR TEXTBOOKS,
ALL OF THE THINGS THAT
GO IN THE CLASSROOM.
SO I THINK WITHIN THE
CONTEXT OF OUR AGENDA,
THEY HAVE EVERY
OPPORTUNITY TO COME
TO AN AGREEMENT
WITH THE TEACHERS.

Steve says THE BLOOD FEUD BETWEEN
THE TORIES AND ONTARIO'S
TEACHERS SEEMS TO
BE BOILING UP
TO THE SURFACE AGAIN.
ACROSS THE PROVINCE,
TEACHERS ARE TAKING
STRIKE VOTES.
THE ISSUE, REPERCUSSIONS
FROM BILL 160.
YOU REMEMBER THAT, THE
LEGISLATION THAT PROMPTED
A PROVINCE-WIDE TEACHER
STRIKE LAST OCTOBER 27TH.
THEY WERE OUT
FOR TWO WEEKS.
AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO
SAY MANY OF THE TEACHERS
GARNERED A GREAT DEAL
OF PUBLIC SUPPORT
BECAUSE THEY WENT ON
STRIKE "FOR DEMOCRACY,"
AS OPPOSED TO FOR
THEIR PAYCHEQUES.
WELL, THIS ONE IS MORE
ABOUT THEIR PAYCHEQUES,
THAN IT IS ABOUT
DEMOCRACY.
DO YOU WONDER WHETHER OR
NOT THEY ARE GOING
TO RISK LOSING ALL
THAT PUBLIC SUPPORT
THEY GARNERED FROM THAT?

Ruth says I THINK IT'S VERY LIKELY
THAT THEY WILL, IF IT IS,
IN FACT, PORTRAYED AS
ABOUT THEIR PAY CHEQUES.
BUT THINK THERE'S
MUCH MORE TO IT THAN
JUST THEIR PAYCHEQUES.
THERE IS THE LOSS OF ARTS,
THE LOSS OF SUPPORT STAFF
IN THE SCHOOLS,
THE LOSS OF ATHLETICS.
AND I THINK THE REAL
ISSUE IS GOING TO BE
THE FINGER POINTING.
WE'VE HEARD THE MINISTER
SAY WE'RE GIVING THEM
THE MONEY, GO TO
THE SCHOOL BOARDS.
SCHOOL BOARDS SAYING
OUR HANDS ARE TIED,
WE CAN'T IN FACT NEGOTIATE
THE KIND OF CONTRACTS
WE WOULD LIKE, AND IT
DEPENDS WHO WINS
THAT PUBLIC
RELATIONS BATTLE.

Richard says YOU SEE THE DEBATE
ALREADY BEING SHAPED.
RUTH IS RIGHT, THIS
IS ABOUT REALLY
THE CONDITIONS OF
EMPLOYMENT, WHICH
IS OFTEN AN ISSUE IN
LABOUR DISPUTES.
THOSE CONDITIONS THEY ARE
TALKING ABOUT ARE THINGS LIKE,
THEY TALKED ABOUT
TEACHERS' PREP TIME,
WHICH ESSENTIALLY REALLY
MEANS HOW TIME TEACHERS
ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO
WORK DURING THE DAY,
AND HOW MANY TEACHERS
YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE
IN THE SCHOOL,
CLASS SIZE,
ALL THESE KIND OF THINGS
THAT WERE FORMERLY
THE PURVIEW OF A BOARD TO
NEGOTIATE WITH TEACHERS
HAVE NOW BEEN TAKEN
BACK BY BILL 160,
AND NOW DIRECTLY
THE RESPONSIBILITY
OF THE MINISTER
OF EDUCATION.

Steve says WE SHOULD REMIND EVERYBODY
HERE; THE PROVINCE,
THROUGH BILL 160, TOOK
OVER CONTROL OF LEVYING
ALL EDUCATION
TAXES, RIGHT?
THEY'RE IN CHARGE OF
SETTING THE BUDGETS -

Ruth says CLASSROOM
SIZES, EVERYTHING.

Steve says SETTING CLASSROOM
SIZES, THAT'S RIGHT,
DECIDING WHAT THE
PREPARATION TIME
WOULD BE AND
ALL THAT.

Richard says AND THE ARGUMENT WAS THE
BOARD WASN'T DOING A GOOD
ENOUGH JOB ON THESE
THINGS LIKE CLASS SIZE,
SO THEY HAD TO
TAKE IT OVER.
SO THE RESPONSIBILITY IS ON
THE PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
NOW TO NEGOTIATE THESE
TERMS WITH TEACHERS.
MR. HARRIS SAYS, WELL,
THIS IS ALL JUST
BARGAINING BY THE
TEACHERS' UNION.
WE'LL SEE.
HE SAID THAT BILL 160 WAS
ABOUT BETTER CLASS SIZE.
HE WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
OVER THE SUMMER TO DELIVER
SMALLER CLASSES FOR THE
STUDENTS ACROSS ONTARIO,
AND I HOPE HE DOES THAT.

Steve says THE TEACHERS DID GARNER A
GREAT DEAL OF SUPPORT
WHEN THEY WENT
OUT LAST OCTOBER.
A LOT OF PARENTS THOUGHT,
THESE GUYS ARE MAKING
SOME GOOD CONCERNS, AND
THEY'RE NOT DOING IT
FOR THEIR PAYCHEQUES.
WHAT ABOUT THIS TIME?

Mac says WELL, I THINK THE ISSUE, IS
THIS A LUNCH BOX ISSUE
FOR THE TEACHERS OR IS IT
A BROADER POLITICAL ISSUE
FOR THE TEACHERS IS GOING
TO BE A CRITICAL ONE,
AND BOTH RUTH AND RICHARD
HAVE TOUCHED ON THAT.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT THIS
TIME WILL HAVE LEARNED
A FEW LESSONS FROM
ITS LAST EXPERIENCE
WITH THE TEACHERS.
I THINK THE GOVERNMENT
ITSELF WILL BE
BETTER POSITIONED.
THEY CONTINUE TO ENJOY
A VERY HIGH LEVEL
OF PUBLIC SUPPORT
FOR THEIR AGENDA.
I THINK THEY'LL TAKE A
GREAT DEAL OF CONFIDENCE
FROM THAT, AND I THINK
THEY WILL BETTER MANAGE
THEIR COMMUNICATIONS
SHOULD THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
I SHOULD SAY AS BOTH
A TORY AND A PARENT,
I HOPE IT DOESN'T
HAPPEN AGAIN.

Ruth says EXPECT A LEAFLET
IN YOUR MAILBOX ANY DAY
NOW TO TELL US HOW GREAT
THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS.

Mac says OR EXPECT YOUR CHILD TO
BRING SOMETHING FROM
THE SCHOOL IN EARLY SEPTEMBER
TELLING HOW BAD IT ISN'T,
OR HOW BAD IT IS.
I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE,
BUT AS I THINK RICHARD
INDICATED THAT THE
TEACHERS DO HAVE THE RIGHT
TO STRIKE IN THIS
PROVINCE.
IF THEY CHOOSE TO
EXERCISE THAT STRIKE,
WE HOPE IT'S FOR
THE RIGHT REASON.
BUT I THINK THE TEACHERS
RUN A REAL RISK,
THIS TIME AROUND, IF
YOU'RE GOING TO THE
WELL FOR A SECOND TIME
IN LESS THAN A YEAR.
THERE'S A PRICE TO BE PAID
HERE BY EVERY FAMILY
IN THE PROVINCE.

Richard says BUT DON'T THE TEACHERS NOW,
HAVING GONE THROUGH
THE EXPERIENCE OF BILL 160
AND GETTING THE HAMMER HEAD
OF GOVERNMENT DOWN ON
THEIR HEADS, I MEAN,
I HAVE SOME
SYMPATHY FOR THEM.
THEY SEEM TO BE IN A
POSITION WHERE THEY HAVE
TO THREATEN TO STRIKE IN
ORDER TO GET ANY OF THESE
ISSUES EVEN REMOTELY
CONSIDERED BY
THE MINISTER OF
EDUCATION.
THAT'S NO WAY TO RUN
AN EDUCATION SYSTEM,
IT SEEMS TO ME.

Ruth says BUT I AGREE WITH MAC,
AND HOW HE PORTRAYED IT,
BUT WITH ONE DIFFERENCE.
I THINK BY SEPTEMBER
PARENTS WILL KNOW WHETHER
IN FACT THERE REALLY
IS A DIFFERENCE
IN THE CHILD'S
EDUCATION.
I WAS TALKING TO SOMEBODY
YESTERDAY WHOSE CHILD
HAD NOT MADE THE
CUT OFF LIST FOR SPECIAL
EDUCATION BECAUSE THERE
NOW WASN'T ANY MONEY.
SOMEBODY ELSE, THE
KINDERGARTEN CLASS
IS GOING TO HAVE 40
KIDS OR SOMETHING.
SO THE REALITIES
WILL BE COMING HOME.
AND AGAIN, YOU'RE
RIGHT, IT'S INTO
THE COMMUNICATIONS, AND
THE GOVERNMENT
WILL BE MUCH BETTER.

Richard says THERE’S NOW
A WAITING LIST FOR
JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN.
MY DAUGHTER IS INTO
JUNIOR KINDERGARTEN
NEXT YEAR, BUT THERE ARE
THOSE WHO ARE STILL
ON WAITING LISTS TRYING
TO GET INTO SCHOOLS.

Mac says I THINK ULTIMATELY,
AND WE SAID THIS ON
THE SHOW ABOUT BILL 160, IT'S
GOING TO BE THE PARENTS
AND THE STUDENTS WHO
DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT 160
IS THE RIGHT POLICY.
AND THAT DECISION WILL
BE MADE IN 1999
OR THE YEAR 2000, BUT
RUTH'S QUITE RIGHT.
PEOPLE WILL LOOK, IS THE
EDUCATION SYSTEM
BETTER OR NOT?

Steve says JUST IN OUR LAST 20
SECONDS HERE,
MARSHALL JARVIS FROM
THE CATHOLIC TEACHERS'
ASSOCIATION WAS QUOTED THE
OTHER DAY AS HAVING SAID,
YUP, THERE ARE
GOING TO BE STRIKES.
DO WE HAVE ANY SENSE AT
THIS TABLE ABOUT
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE BOARDS
ACROSS THIS PROVINCE
ARE GOING TO GO OUT?

Ruth says I'VE NO IDEA.

Steve says ANY IDEA?

Richard says NONE.

Steve says HALF OF THEM?
WHO KNOWS.

Ruth says TOO EARLY
TO SAY.

Richard says THE SUMMER WILL
TELL, I GUESS.
IT'S GOING TO BE
AN ACTIVE SUMMER.
LOTS OF NEGOTIATION
IN THE MEDIA, I SUSPECT.
RIGHT.

Steve says THANKS TO THE THREE OF YOU
FOR HELPING US THROUGH
ANOTHER YEAR OF
QUEEN'S PARK ISSUES.
MUCH APPRECIATED
TO RUTH GRIER,
RICHARD MAHONEY
AND MAC PENNEY.
GREAT SUMMER, EVERYBODY,
AND WE'LL SEE YOU
AGAIN IN SEPTEMBER.

Ruth says IT'S BEEN FUN.
HAVE A GOOD SUMMER.

Richard says GREAT SUMMER.

Steve says AND THANKS TO ALL
OF YOU FOR WATCHING.
THIS IS OUR LAST EDITION
OF 4TH READING
FOR THE SEASON.
WE HOPE YOU HAVE
A GREAT SUMMER.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU AGAIN EVERY
SUNDAY IN SEPTEMBER.
SO LONG.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue
the conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #130 "Tory Tug-of-War"