Transcript: Show #127 "On Their Mark" | May 31, 1998

The opening sequence rolls. Music plays as clips show politicians and the Canadian
stock market in session, and an animated number 4 appears.

Steve says THIS WEEK,
ON THEIR MARKS.

A clip shows opposition parties getting together for elections.

A woman says I'M SURE GETTING PUMPED UP.

A man says FUNNY HAT SEASON WHERE
OPPOSITION PARTIES TRY TO
GET SOME ATTENTION FROM THE
MEDIA AND FROM THE PUBLIC.

Steve THE OPPOSITION PARTIES
REV INTO PRE-ELECTION MODE.

Steve, Ruth, Jim, Richard and Hugh sit with two guests around a table in the
shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's
wearing a mountain green coat over a dark green polo shirt.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
WELCOME TO THIS WEEK'S
EDITION OF
4th READING.
THE PACE OF CHANGE THAT'S
WASHED OVER ONTARIO SINCE
THE CONSERVATIVES CAME INTO
POWER JUST THREE SHORT YEARS
AGO HAS BEEN VIRTUALLY
UNPRECEDENTED.
YOU CAN HARDLY BE BLAMED
IF YOU THOUGHT THE ONLY
POLITICS BEING PRACTICED IN
THE PROVINCE WAS BY MIKE
HARRIS' COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTIONARIES.
BUT OVER THE PAST FEW
MONTHS, SOMETHING ELSE HAS
BEEN UNFOLDING.
THE OPPOSITION LIBERALS AND
NEW DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN
QUIETLY GEARING UP FOR THE
ULTIMATE POLITICAL SHOWDOWN,
THE NEXT PROVINCIAL
ELECTION, WHICH COULD BE
LESS THAN A YEAR AWAY.
WE THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO
TAKE A LOOK AT HOW THEY'RE
PREPARING FOR A REMATCH
WITH THE TORIES.

A clip that shows two parties shaking the hands of constituents at rallies.

Steve says THEY CAME TO
SEE THEIR LEADERS.
DELEGATES CAME TO VOTE FOR
PARTY EXECUTIVES AND SHAPE
THE POLICIES THEY HOPE WILL
CARRY THEIR PARTIES TO
VICTORY IN THE
NEXT ELECTION.
THE LIBERAL CONVENTION CAME
FIRST WITH ALMOST A THOUSAND
DELEGATES FILLING A RICHMOND
HILL CONFERENCE CENTRE.

The caption appears on screen. It reads "Dalton McGuinty. Ont. Liberal Leader."
Dalton is in his forties and is clean-shaven. He wears a black blazer and blue
shirt.

He stands on a podium and speaks to the crowd.

Dalton says LOOK, THE THEME FOR THIS
ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING IS
A WINNING FORMULA.

A clip shows policy meetings with several politicians and constituents.

Steve says A FORMULA WHICH
INCLUDED SEMINARS ON SUCH
NUTS AND BOLTS TOPICS AS HOW
TO COMMUNICATE THE PARTY'S
MESSAGE AND HOW
TO RAISE MONEY.
THEY ALSO HAD TWO KEY POLICY
MEETINGS, ONE ON EDUCATION
AND ONE ON HEALTH CARE, TWO
AREAS THE LIBERALS BELIEVE
CONSERVATIVE
SUPPORT IS WEAKEST.

A Man says HOW DID YOU MEAN PRIVATELY
OWNED HOSPITALS?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
MANAGED.
PRIVATELY MANAGED HOSPITALS.
BECAUSE HERE WE
HAVE A PLAN...
I HAD AN IDEA PEOPLE MIGHT
WANT TO DISCUSS THAT.
[Laughing]

Steve says BUT THE WEEKEND ALSO
CONTAINED A MAJOR SURPRISE
FOR THE DELEGATES, SOMETHING
TO THINK ABOUT AS THEY HEAD
INTO THE NEXT CAMPAIGN.

The caption changes to "Michael Marzolini. Pollara."
Michael is in his forties an he has brown hair and wears a black jacket and
white and gray striped shirt with orange, black and yellow tie.

Michael says THE LIBERAL CAMPAIGN CANNOT
AFFORD THE LUXURY OF
THINKING OF ITSELF
AS THE FRONTRUNNER.
IT ISN'T THE FRONTRUNNER
AND IF IT RUNS A FRONTRUNNER'S
CAMPAIGN, IT WILL NOT WIN.
THE PEOPLE ARE WAITING
TO BE CONVINCED.
YOU CAN'T EXPECT THAT THAT
VOTE THIS WILL ELECT YOU,
YOU KNOW, INTO A LARGE
MAJORITY OR EVEN A
SMALL MAJORITY.
AND THE LIBERALS HAVE A
HISTORY, A TRADITION OF
HAVING TAKEN POLLING RESULTS
AND PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR
GRANTED IN 1990, IN 1995.
THEY CANNOT DO IT AGAIN.
THEY HAVE TO FIGHT.

Steve says MICHAEL MARZOLINI
TOLD DELEGATES TO BROADCAST
THEIR MESSAGE.
THAT IS, TRY TO APPEAL TO
MORE THAN JUST THEIR CORE
SUPPORTERS, TO MIDDLE CLASS
VOTERS AND ANYONE WHO
OPPOSES THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT.

A clip shows NDP supporters at a rally.

Theme song of NDP: I GET KNOCKED DOWN,
BUT I GET UP AGAIN ‚ô™

Steve says THE NDP HAS ALSO SET
ITS SIGHTS ON OUSTING THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT, BUT
LEADER HOWARD HAMPTON HAS
ALSO SET HIMSELF
ANOTHER TARGET.

Howard Hampton is in his fifties and has light brown hair that is parted to the
side and wears a blue blazer and blue shirt with a brown tie.

Howard speaks at a rally with a sign behind him that reads "Dialogue ’98."

Howard says THE MORE WE HARDEN UP THE
DEBATE, THE MORE DIFFICULT
IT BECOMES FOR LIBERALS TO
SAY ONE THING OVER THERE AND
SOMETHING ENTIRELY
DIFFERENT OVER THERE.
[Cheering/applause]
SO WE ARE HERE TODAY TO SHOW
PEOPLE THAT THERE IS A REAL
CHOICE, A PRACTICAL WORKABLE
CHOICE FOR MEDICARE, FOR
PUBLIC EDUCATION AND
FOR A WHOLE LOT MORE.
WE HAVE TO DO IT.
NO ONE ELSE WILL.
[Cheering]
Steve says THE NDP HAD NO
SESSIONS TO LAY OUT
COMMUNICATION STRATEGIES.
INSTEAD, DELEGATES FOCUSED
ON DETAILED POLICIES WHICH
CAME OUT OF THEIR DIALOGUE
FOR CHANGE PAPERS.
THEY SET OUT POLICIES IN
FIVE AREAS: THE ENVIRONMENT,
EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE,
DEMOCRATIC REFORM, AND THE
FUTURE OF WORK.
AND NDP SUPPORTERS WERE
UPBEAT DESPITE PUBLIC
OPINION POLLS, WHICH SHOW
THEIR SUPPORT IN THE TEENS.

The caption changes to "Tony Silipo. NDP MPP, Dovercourt."
Tony is in his forties and has curly brown hair and wears a blue blazer and
white and gray shirt.

Tony says WE'RE A PARTY THAT'S READY,
NOT JUST TO COME BACK IN A
BIG WAY WITH REALLY
PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS ON THE
MAIN ISSUES OF EDUCATION,
HEALTH CARE, ON A NEW SENSE
OF DEMOCRACY IN
THE PROVINCE.
BUT WE'RE ALSO A PARTY
THAT'S READY TO GOVERN AGAIN.

The caption changes to "Graham White. Political Scientist U of T."
Graham is in his fifties and has white hair and a white beard and wears a blue
button up shirt and brown tie.

Graham says THE NDP CLEARLY IS IN
A LONG-TERM REBUILDING
PROCESS, AND THEY CAN'T
POSSIBLY IMAGINE THAT IT'S
GOING TO TAKE ANY LESS THAN
A COUPLE OF ELECTIONS TO PUT
THEM BACK AS
SERIOUS CONTENDERS.
THE LIBERALS ARE IN
A REALLY TOUGH SPOT.
THEY ALSO, I'M SURE, FEEL
KIND OF SNAKE BITTEN FROM
GOING INTO TWO ELECTIONS
RUNNING CLEARLY AHEAD IN THE
POLLS AND SEEING IT
SIMPLY EVAPORATE.

The caption changes to "John Baird. PC MPP, NEPEAN."
John is in his forties and has brown hair is clean-shaven. He wears a black
blazer, white shirt and black diamond printed tie.

John says THE NDP ON ONE SIDE HAS
STAKED OUT SOME CLEAR
POLICIES THAT'LL TAKE THE
PROVINCE IN A VERY DIFFERENT
DIRECTION FROM
THIS GOVERNMENT.
THE LIBERALS ARE HAVING A
TREMENDOUS FIGHT OVER WHICH
DIRECTION THEY GO IN.

Steve says OKAY.
SO WHAT EXACTLY ARE THOSE
DIRECTIONS, AND WHAT ARE THE
LIBERAL AND NDP STRATEGIES
FOR WRESTING POWER FROM THE
CONSERVATIVES IN
THE NEXT ELECTION?
HERE WITH SOME ANSWERS
ARE -- HERE'S TIM MURPHY.
HE'S THE NEWLY ELECTED
PRESIDENT OF THE ONTARIO
LIBERALS, CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIR
FOR THE NEXT ELECTION, A
LAWYER WITH MCCARTHY
TETRAULT IN TORONTO.

Tim is in his forties and is balding with brown hair and is clean-shaven. He
wears glasses black pinstripe blazer, blue shirt, blue and khaki shirt.

Steve says AND FRANCES LANKIN IS HERE.
SHE IS THE NDP MPP YOU ALL
RECOGNIZE FROM BEACHES
WOODBINE, CURRENTLY THE
CO-CHAIR OF THE PARTY'S
STRATEGY AND COMMUNICATIONS
GROUP,

Francis is in her forties and has dark brown wavy hair with fringe. She wears
orange lipstick, a black blazer, orange blouse, and flower shaped silver
earrings.

Steve continues AND WELCOME TO BOTH
OF YOU.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
YOU KNOW OUR GANG OVER HERE.
I THINK YOU HEALTH MINISTER
FORMERLY MAY REMEMBER THIS.
HEALTH MINISTER FORMERLY...
FORMER HEALTH MINISTER...

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She wears a pink and blue
paisley long sleeved shirt over a light lilac shirt with a silver necklace with
a pear and bulbous pearl earrings.

Ruth says WE MET SINCE THEN, TOO.

Steve says RUTH GRIER, AND FROM
THE BRAD GATE RESEARCH GROUP,
THERE'S JOHN MYKYTYSHYN AND
OCCASIONAL POLLSTER, WE
MIGHT ADD, FOR THE PREMIER
OF THIS PROVINCE,

John is in his forties and is bald with a gray and brown beard. He wears a black
and brown dotted suit with a white shirt and brown tie.

Steve continues AND
ANOTHER LIBERAL PRESIDENT
HERE IN OUR MIDST.
HOW ABOUT THAT.
PAST PRESIDENT OF THE
ONTARIO LIBERALS, RICHARD
MAHONEY FROM THE OTTAWA LAW
FIRM FRASER AND BEATTY.

Richard Mahoney is in his fifties and has gray hair and is clean-shaven. He
wears a gray blazer, a white shirt and a blue and brown patterned tie.

Steve says ALL RIGHT.
LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW THIS
ELECTION IS GOING TO BE SO
MUCH DIFFERENT FROM THE LAST
ONE, AND I THINK WE CAN SAY
RIGHT OFF THE TOP THE
GOVERNING PARTY IS PROBABLY
NOT GOING TO GO INTO THE
NEXT ELECTION IN A BAD THIRD
PLACE AS THE LAST PARTY DID.
THE NDP WAS A BAD THIRD
GOING INTO THE 1995 CAMPAIGN.
THESE TORIES
PROBABLY WON'T BE.
THERE IS NOT, ACCORDING
TO ALL THE NUMBERS I SEE, A
MASSIVE DISAFFECTION IN THE
LAND FOR THE GOVERNMENT
THIS TIME.
MAKES YOUR JOB TOUGHER
I WOULD ASSUME.
HOW DO YOU DEAL
WITH THAT, TIM?

The caption changes to "Tim Murphy. Ont. Liberal Party Pres."

Tim says WELL, I GUESS
I HAVE TWO POINTS.
ONE IS I'M NOT SURE THAT I
AGREE WITH YOU THAT THERE
ISN'T A MASSIVE DISAFFECTION
WITH THIS GOVERNMENT.
IN FACT, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING
IS THAT THERE ARE A GROUP OF
PEOPLE WHO ARE PLEASED WITH
THE GOVERNMENT PERFORMANCE,
A FAIRLY LARGE CHUNK WHO ARE
QUITE UNCERTAIN AND THEN
THERE'S, I THINK, A
SIGNIFICANT CHUNK WHO ARE
DEAD SET AGAINST WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING.
BUT THAT BEING SAID, THERE
IS A CHALLENGE IN THIS
ELECTION AND IT'S GOING TO
BE TO REMIND PEOPLE OF THE
BAD AND MEAN THINGS THAT
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE.
YOU KNOW, THEY'VE TARGETED,
YOU KNOW, TEACHERS AND
STUDENTS IN THE BILL 160.
YOU KNOW, THAT THE PEOPLE
MIGHT NOT REMEMBER, BUT THEY
WILL, BECAUSE THE IMAGE
WILL BE THERE OF THE RIOTS
OUTSIDE THE PLACE OF WHAT THEY
DID TO THE DIONNE QUINTUPLETS.
THAT'S THE FIRST CHALLENGE
TO MAKE SURE THEY REMEMBER
AND ARE REMINDED OF, YOU
KNOW, WHAT THIS GOVERNMENT
HAS DONE, HOW BADLY IT'S
TREATED THE PROVINCE.
AND THEN THERE IS THE SECOND
COMPONENT, WHICH IS, ALL
RIGHT, WHO IS GOING TO BE THE
BEST ALTERNATIVE TO GOVERN.
YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT
YOU'LL SEE IS A COUPLE THINGS.
MY GUESS IS THE NEW
DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO BE
FIGHTING FOR OFFICIAL
OPPOSITION AND WE'RE GOING
TO BE FIGHTING
FOR THE PROVINCE.

Steve says WELL, LET'S FIND OUT.
FRANCIS?
YOU KNOW, THE CONVENTIONAL
WISDOM FOR THE NEW DEMOCRATS
IS THAT THEY DON'T FIGHT
A PROVINCE-WIDE CAMPAIGN,
THEY TARGET SEATS.
THEY GO FOR SEATS.
THEY FIGHT TO BE THE
CONSCIENCE OF THE LEGISLATURE.
PERHAPS THE OPPOSITION.
IS THAT WHAT THE
PLAN IS THIS TIME?

The caption changes to "Frances Lankin. NDP MPP, Beaches-Woodbine."

Francis says ABSOLUTELY NOT.
IN FACT, WE BELIEVE THAT
THIS CAMPAIGN AS WE GET
CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, THE
QUESTIONS ARE GOING TO BE
VERY CLEAR FOR THE VOTERS,
AND IT WILL BE, AS YOU SAID,
DO THEY CONTINUE TO SUPPORT
WHERE HARRIS IS GOING OR ARE
THEY DISAFFECTED?
AND IF THEY'RE DISAFFECTED,
THEN OUR QUESTION'S GOING TO
BE WHY WOULD YOU EVEN
CONSIDER A LIBERAL, A BLUE
LIGHT, A DALTON MCGUINTY,
WHO'S ESSENTIALLY WALKING
DOWN THE SAME PATH?
SO WE'RE GOING TO BE SHOWING
THAT HOWARD IS OUT THERE.
HOWARD HAMPTON IS OUT THERE
WITH A SERIOUS SET OF
DIRECTIONS FOR THE PROVINCE
IN A POST-HARRIS ERA, ONE
THAT LOOKS AT HOW WE REBUILD
OUR CORE VALUES IN HEALTH
CARE AND IN EDUCATION, HOW
WE BRING BACK DEMOCRACY TO
THE PROVINCE.
WE'RE OUT THERE IN THE GRASS
ROOTS RIGHT NOW WITH THIS
DIALOGUE FOR CHANGE PROCESS
AND WE ARE FURTHER AHEAD IN
TERMS OF BEING ELECTION
READY THAN I THINK WE HAVE
EVER BEEN BEFORE, THIS
EARLY BEFORE AN ELECTION.
SO OUR STRATEGY IS GOING
TO BE CLEARLY TO SHOW THAT
THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE
TO THE DIRECTION THAT THE
PROVINCE IS HEADED, AND THAT
HOWARD HAMPTON AND THE NEW
DEMOCRATS REPRESENT
THAT ALTERNATIVE.

Steve says LET ME JUST FOLLOW UP
WITH THAT ON A SECOND.
IS IT FAIR TO SAY THERE IS
A DISAGREEMENT WITHIN YOUR
PARTY AS TO WHICH STRATEGY
TO TAKE, BECAUSE NEXT
ELECTION THERE
WILL FEWER SEATS.
THE NEW BOUNDARIES, I
THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY,
FAVOUR THE GOVERNMENT.
THEY DON'T FAVOUR THE NDP.
IT WILL BE HARDER FOR YOU TO
WIN AS MANY SEATS NEXT TIME
AS IT WAS THE PAST TIME.
SO CAN YOU GIVE US A HINT
ABOUT THAT INTERNAL DEBATE
THAT'S GOING ON RIGHT
NOW AS TO WHETHER TO RUN
PROVINCE-WIDE
OR TARGET SEATS?

France says SURE.
TWO THINGS.
YOU'RE RIGHT IN TERMS OF IT
WILL BE HARDER TO WIN SEATS
IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS
OF THE LAST ELECTION, AND
OUR JOB BETWEEN NOW AND THE
NEXT ELECTION IS TO CHANGE
THAT, RIGHT, AND SO THAT'S
PART OF BEING OUT THERE.
THE DIALOGUE FOR CHANGE
PROCESS, OUR PRE-ELECTION
TOUR WITH THE LEADER
STARTS THIS SUMMER.
SO THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS
HAPPENING WE HOPE THAT WILL
CHANGE THAT PICTURE.
THE DEBATE THAT YOU ALLUDE
TO IS A PERENNIAL DEBATE
WITHIN THE PARTY, AND IN
FACT IT WAS DECIDED AT OUR
CONVENTION LAST WEEKEND, AND
A RESOUNDING DECISION OF THE
PARTY LEADERSHIP AND THE
DIRECTION IS WE'RE RUNNING
FOR GOVERNMENT.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO RUN
TO BE THE CONSCIENCE
OF THE PARLIAMENT.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO RUN TO,
YOU KNOW, TO SUPPORT A
LIBERAL PARTY GOVERNMENT
DEFEATING MIKE HARRIS,
BECAUSE WE THINK YOU
GET THE SAME THING.
YOU JUST GET A LIGHTER
VERSION OF IT WITH
DALTON MCGUINTY.

Steve says JOHN, I'M CURIOUS
AS TO WHAT TORIES DO
AT A TIME LIKE THIS.
THESE TWO OPPOSITION PARTIES
ARE GETTING THEIR ACTS
TOGETHER, GETTING
READY TO GO AT YOU.
WHAT DO THE TORIES
MAKE OF IT ALL?
WHO ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT?
WHAT AREN'T THEY
WORRIED ABOUT?

The caption changes to " John Mykytyshyn. Ont. PC Advisor."

John says I THINK THE BIGGEST WORRY IS
BEING TAKEN OFF OF OUR PLAN,
AND THAT THE KEY FOR THE
CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT IS
TO CONTINUE WITH
THE COURSE IT'S ON.
INTERESTING, THE NUMBERS ARE
TOPPED AROUND ABOUT THIS
DISSATISFACTION.
I AGREE WITH THAT.
I THINK THERE ARE A
CONSIDERABLE GROUP OF PEOPLE
WHO AREN'T HAPPY WITH THE
GOVERNMENT AND FOR THOSE ONE
OUT OF FOUR -- SORRY, ONE OUT
OF FOUR, ONE OUT OF FIVE
PEOPLE IN THE PROVINCE, THE
REALITY IS THAT THREE OUT OF
FOUR AND FOUR OUT OF FIVE
PEOPLE, DEPENDING ON THE
POLICY ISSUE ARE EITHER
CONTENT WITH THE GOVERNMENT
OR NOT UPSET AND
SO WE HAVE...

Steve says WHAT ARE YOU
REFERRING TO THERE?
I HAVEN'T SEEN
ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.

John says WELL, I MEAN IF YOU LOOK ON
EDUCATION, FOR EXAMPLE, OKAY.
I MEAN THERE'S NO WAY THAT
WE COULD BE, AND CERTAINLY
WE NEVER ENVISIONED TO HAVE
THE TYPE OF SUPPORT AND THE
DEPTH OF SUPPORT
WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.
AND ON SPECIFIC AREAS.
LIKE EDUCATION, I FRANKLY,
IF YOU GO TO -- FOR US GOING
TO CORE, THERE'S AN AWFUL
LOT OF PEOPLE HAPPY
WITH EDUCATION.
CERTAINLY OUR SUPPORTERS ARE
HAPPY WITH WHAT WE'VE BEEN
DOING IN EDUCATION.

Steve says AGAIN, YOU'VE GOT TO
TELL ME MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU
MEAN THERE, BECAUSE I SAW
126,000 TEACHERS ON STRIKE
SIX MONTHS AGO BECAUSE
THEY HATED YOUR POLICIES
AND A LOT OF PARENTS
WERE WITH THEM.

John says ABSOLUTELY.
AND THERE WAS A LOT OF CIVIL
SERVANTS OUT WHEN IT WAS
THEM AND THERE WAS A LOT OF
DIFFERENT GROUPS, AND WHEN
IT'S EACH GROUP -- WHEN
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE
PEOPLE OF THE PROVINCE -- I
MEAN 10 MILLION PEOPLE, THAT
WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR THE
VOTE -- AND EVERY MONTH
SOMEBODY PUTS OUT A
DIFFERENT SURVEY -- THE
REALITY IS THAT THE
GOVERNMENT -- FOR ALL THE
CRITICS AROUND THE TABLE...
IS IT SHOULD BE -- WE SHOULD
BE IN THE TWENTIES OR
THE TEENS BUT WE'RE NOT.

Richard says WELL, I AGREE
YOU SHOULD BE IN THE
TWENTIES OR THE TEENS.
BUT THEY'RE NOT.

John says AND PEOPLE ARE
SUPPORTING WHAT WE'RE DOING.

Richard says WELL,
HOLD ON A SECOND.
IT'S A LITTLE MISCHIEVOUS
FOR A POLLSTER TO COME ON
AND TELL US HOW 60 PERCENT
OF THE PEOPLE OR TWO-THIRDS
ARE SUPPORTING US WITH NO
NUMBERS IN FRONT OF US
AND SO FORTH.
I MEAN WE'VE DISCUSSED ON
THE SHOW BEFORE AND YOU'VE
SAT IN THAT SEAT, ABOUT HOW
EVEN THOSE FOLKS WHO WILL
SAY WHEN ASKED THAT THERE
IS SUPPORT FOR THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT SUPPORT ONLY THE
BROADEST GENERAL DIRECTION
THEY'RE GOING AND THERE IS
SIGNIFICANT CONCERN ON THEIR
HANDLING OF HEALTH CARE AND
THEIR HANDLING OF EDUCATION.
ABSOLUTELY.
AND THOSE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
NOW ACTUALLY SAYING THEY
EITHER HAVEN'T DECIDED
WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO
SUPPORT LIBERAL OR NEW
DEMOCRATS ARE -- IN SOME
CASES THEY ARE ALREADY
SUPPORTED LIBERALS AND NEW
DEMOCRATS IN THE POLLS.
BUT IF YOU GUYS WERE TRULY
HAPPY WITH THE RECORD THAT
YOU HAVE, AND THOUGHT THAT
YOU WERE DOING VERY, VERY
WELL, YOU WOULDN'T BE
ALREADY STARTING THIS VERY
APPARENT CAMPAIGN TO TALK
NOT ABOUT YOUR RECORD, BUT
TO BACK AWAY FROM IT AND GET
WARM AND FUZZY AND CUDDLY...
[All talking at once]
AND ATTACKING OTTAWA
EVERY SINGLE DAY.
YOU'RE RUNNING AGAINST
SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU CAN'T
RUN IN FAVOUR OF SOMETHING.

John says YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOT
BEING HAPPY, YOU'RE RIGHT.
I WOULD SAY THE
GOVERNMENT'S NOT HAPPY.
I WOULD SAY THE FACT THAT
THEY'RE IN THE MID-FORTIES
ISN'T ANYTHING TO
BE HAPPY ABOUT.
IT SHOULD BE IN THE
FIFTIES OR SIXTIES.

Richard says YOU ARE A POLLSTER.
YOU'VE GOT SOME
PROFESSIONAL STATUS.

John says NO, NO, ABSOLUTELY.

Steve says FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW,
LET'S CHECK -- THE LAST
NUMBERS I SAW WERE LIBERALS
45, TORIES 42, NDP... 18?

Tim says 13.

John says BUT IF I HAD ANY NEWER
NUMBERS THAT I COULDN'T
COMMENT ON, I WOULD SUGGEST
THAT THE NUMBERS ARE
THE SAME TODAY.
THAT BEING SAID...
[All talking at once]

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says BUT THAT BEING SAID, IT'S
STILL PROBABLY A YEAR AWAY
FROM AN ELECTION.
WE'RE NOW SEEING A LOT OF
THE MOVES THAT WERE TAKEN AS
THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION
BEGINNING TO UNRAVEL,
WHETHER IT BE METRO'S TAX
SITUATION OR EDUCATION OR
HEALTH CARE AS THE REAL
IMPLICATIONS OF THOSE
CHANGES ROLL OUT, AND WE'RE
SEEING A DIFFERENT MIKE
HARRIS TRYING TO STAUNCH
EVERY WOUND IN ANTICIPATION
OF THE ELECTION, AND I THINK
IT'S FAR TOO EARLY TO SAY
THAT YOU'RE AT THIS PLACE IN
THE POLLS AND SOMEBODY ELSE
IS HERE BECAUSE I THINK ALL
BETS ARE OFF OVER
THIS NEXT YEAR.
AND ONCE THE ELECTION IS
ACTUALLY ON AND BOTH HOWARD
AND DALTON MCGUINTY BECOME
MORE VISIBLE, THEN I THINK
YOU WILL SEE SOME
SIGNIFICANT SHIFTS IN THOSE
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW
WITH THE TORIES.

Steve says LET ME ASK TIM ABOUT WHAT I
PERCEIVE TO BE A LOT OF THE
LIBERAL STRATEGY, WHICH IS
TO SAY I'M DALTON MCGUINTY.
I'M THE LEADER
OF THE LIBERALS.
THE NDP HAS NO
CHANCE OF WINNING.
IF YOU WANT TO GET RID OF THE
TORIES, YOU MUST VOTE FOR ME.
NOW I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO
SIT HERE AND TELL US TODAY
THAT THAT'S NOT THE SUM
TOTAL OF HIS MESSAGE.
BUT AT THIS STAGE IN ADVANCE
OF MUCH POLICY DETAIL,
THAT'S MOST OF IT
SO FAR, ISN'T IT?
AND IF IT IS, THAT'S NOT
MUCH TO HANG YOUR HAT ON.

The caption changes to "Tim Murphy. Ont. Liberal Party Pres."

Tim says NO, BUT YOU'RE CONFUSING,
YOU KNOW, A POSITIONING
POINT WITH, YOU KNOW, WHAT
YOU'RE GOING TO SAY IN TERMS
OF CONTENT.
I MEAN I BROUGHT, YOU
KNOW, A BIG PILE OF...

France says DON’T USE PROPS.
WHEN YOU HAVE NO CONTENT,
YOU SHOW PICTURES.

Tim says FIRST, YOU KNOW,
BUILDING TOGETHER.
FIRST STEPS, CONSULTATIONS,
THE DISCUSSION PAPERS.
THERE'S LOTS OF
CONTENT IN THERE.

Ruth says THE NEW RED BOOK.

Tim says WELL, NO, NOT A
NEW RED BOOK.

Steve says WE DON'T
WANT TO GO THERE.

Tim says BUT WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS A SET
OF -- WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS YOU
HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, SET OUT
THE PRIORITIES THAT YOU'RE
GOING TO BE KNOWN FOR AND,
YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING
THING IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT
THE NUMBERS -- TO TALK ABOUT
THE NUMBERS -- IS THAT
WHERE IS HARRIS WEAK?
WELL, HARRIS IS WEAK ON
THE THINGS THAT MATTER TO
ONTARIO, AND THAT'S WHY
THERE'S DOUBT OUT THERE.
IT'S EDUCATION AND HEALTH
CARE IS PARTICULARLY WEAK.
WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THOSE
THINGS, HISTORICALLY PEOPLE
HAVEN'T BELIEVED HIM WHICH
IS WHY WHAT YOU'RE SEEING
THE GOVERNMENT DOING NOW,
AND MIKE HARRIS, IS HE'S
TRYING TO SOFTEN HIS IMAGE
IN EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE.
MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS, YOU
KNOW, MY MY GRANNY, WHAT BIG
TEETH YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
AND IT'S -- AND I THINK
THAT'S THE SENSE THAT
ONTARIO'S GOING TO HAVE.
NOW YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A
YEAR FOR HIM TO TRY AND,
YOU KNOW, USE, YOU KNOW, USE
TAXPAYER'S MONEY TO BUY
AN IMAGE THAT'S LIKABLE.

France says BUT IF I MAY,
TIM, ON THAT POINT.
IF I MAY, TIM,
ON THAT POINT.
I MEAN EVERY DAY IN THE
HOUSE WHEN WE ARE HITTING
HOME ABOUT THE FACT THAT
DALTON MCGUINTY, YOU KNOW,
SAYS THAT THE HARRIS TAX
SCHEME IS A BAD TAX SCHEME
AND IT HAS THE
WRONG PRIORITIES.
THEN WHEN YOU ASK HIM IF
HE'S GOING TO REVERSE IT HE
SAYS, NO, BECAUSE I WOULDN'T
BE ELECTED PREMIER IF I SAID
I WAS GOING TO REVERSE IT.
WHEN WE HIT HOME ON THAT...

Richard says IN FAIRNESS, YOU NEVER
PROMISED TO REVERSE IT EITHER.

Frances says YES WE HAVE.
WE'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR.
EVERYONE OVER 80,000...

Richard says THERE YOU GO, THAT'S
NOT REVERSING IT.

Frances says IT'S 2 BILLION DOLLARS OF
REVENUES TO SPEND ON
PRIORITIES LIKE HEALTH
CARE AND EDUCATION.
BUT EVERY DAY WHEN WE DO
THAT, THE LIBERAL CAUCUS
GETS REALLY UPSET AND THEY
POINT TO US AND THEY SAY,
YOU KNOW, REMEMBER THAT, YOU
KNOW, THE OPPOSITION'S
OVER THERE.
IT'S THE HARRIS GOVERNMENT.
I THINK THEY'RE COUNTING
VERY MUCH ON THIS STRATEGIC
POSITIONING AND VOTERS
MAKING A STRATEGIC DECISION.

Steve says WELL, WHO ARE YOU
RUNNING AGAINST THEN?

Frances says THIS IS VERY CLEARLY THE
POSITIONING AND THE STRATEGY
OF THE NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY
HAS TO BE TO POINT OUT TO
PEOPLE THAT YOU GET THE
SAME THING IF YOU CHOOSE
THE LIBERALS.
IT'S A DEFAULT HARRIS
GOVERNMENT, AND IT HAS TO
BE MADE VERY CLEAR.

Tim says EVERY TIME YOU HEAR THE
NDP ATTACK THE LIBERAL PARTY,
YOU SHOULD REACH THE
CONCLUSION THAT THEY'VE
DECIDED TO RUN FOR
OPPOSITION, BECAUSE
THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.
I MEAN THE ENEMY
IS THE GOVERNMENT.

Frances says IT'S EXACTLY
THE OPPOSITE.

Ruth says I THINK THAT THE PEOPLE OF
THIS PROVINCE ARE TIRED OF
SOMEBODY JUST RUNNING
AGAINST SOMEBODY ELSE AND
ARE LOOKING FOR SOME
POSITIVE ALTERNATIVES, AND
THAT HAS BEEN WHAT HOWARD'S
STAMP THAT HE HAS PUT ON THE
PARTY, WHICH IS THE DIALOGUE
FOR CHANGE DEBATE, AND IT'S
NOT JUST IF YOU DON'T
LIKE THE CONSERVATIVES,
LOOK AT THE NDP.
IT'S HERE'S WHAT THE NDP IS
GOING TO MAKE A PRIORITY
AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION.
AND I THINK IF THERE WAS ONE
LESSON WE LEARNED FROM OUR
FIVE YEARS IN GOVERNMENT IT
IS BE CLEAR AS TO WHAT YOUR
PRIORITIES ARE AND HOW
YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT.

Richard says AND THERE'S ANOTHER
LESSON I THINK, RIGHT, AS WELL.
I MEAN I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN
FAIRNESS, THE LIBERALS HAVE
BEGUN TO PUT OUT THEIR
ALTERNATIVES WITH THE FIRST
STEPS PROGRAM THAT TIM
TALKED TO, AND WE HAVE ALSO
THE YEAR RUN-UP TO THE
ELECTION WHERE YOU'RE GOING
TO SEE A LOT MORE
ALTERNATIVES.
I THINK THE RISK -- AND
MCGUINTY HAS BEEN VERY, VERY
CLEAR ON THIS -- THE CAMPAIGN
THAT THE LIBERALS WILL RUN,
AND I SUSPECT THE NDP WILL
PROBABLY LEARN THE SAME
LESSON -- IS TO TAKE ONE
LESSON THAT MIKE HARRIS
TAUGHT EVERY POLITICAL PARTY
IN ONTARIO LAST TIME, AND
THAT IS YOU HAVE TO RUN A
CAMPAIGN THAT TAKES RISKS.
YOU HAVE TO RUN A CAMPAIGN
THAT STANDS FOR SOMETHING.
YOU CAN'T RUN A CAMPAIGN
THAT TRIES TO BE ALL THINGS
TO ALL PEOPLE.
AND I THINK MCGUINTY, SINCE
THE DAY HE BECAME LEADER...
IN FACT, WHEN HE RAN FOR
LEADER -- HAS TALKED ABOUT
THAT AND YOU'LL SEE A
CAMPAIGN THAT FOCUSES ON...

John says I’D SAY DALTON'S
TALKED ABOUT IT,
BUT HE HASN'T
DONE IT.

France says DALTON’S OUT THERE
WITH THIS SORT OF, YOU KNOW,
IMAGE OF I'M EARNEST AND
I CARE ABOUT CHILDREN,
AND THERE ISN'T MUCH
MORE THAN THAT.
THERE AREN'T ANY RISKS THAT
WE HAVE -- THERE ARE NOT ANY
RISKS THAT WE'VE SEEN.
IN FACT, I'LL COME BACK TO
THIS ISSUE IN TERMS OF
THE HARRIS TAX SCHEME, BECAUSE
IT WAS THE CENTREPIECE OF
THE COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION.
AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN PRESSED

- AND THIS HAPPENED JUST
AGAIN THIS WEEKEND.
DALTON'S ANSWER TO A GROUP
OF PARENTS IN LONDON AT
A CONFERENCE WAS NO, I
WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT
REVERSING ANY PART OF THAT
TAX SCHEME BECAUSE THEN
I WOULDN'T GET ELECTED.
HE ACTUALLY SAID
THOSE WORDS.

Steve says YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT
THE 30 PERCENT TAX CUT.

Frances THE 30 PERCENT
TAX CUT, YEAH.

Steve says THAT’S THE PART
THAT HE WOULDN'T REVERSE.

Frances AND, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK
PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SORT OF
SAY, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE.
YOU'RE SAYING YOU'RE GOING
TO SPEND MORE IN HEALTH.
YOU'RE GOING TO SPEND
MORE IN EDUCATION.
YOU'RE GOING TO DO ALL OF
THIS, BUT WHERE ARE YOU GOING
TO GET THE MONEY FROM?
WELL, SOME MAGIC PLACE THE
ECONOMY'S GOING TO GROW.
IF THE ECONOMY DOESN'T GROW,
DOES THAT MEAN THAT LIBERALS
WILL SUSTAIN THE CUTS IN
HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION?
THE CONCLUSION'S GOT TO BE
YES, AND I THINK THAT'S OUR
JOB TO GET THAT MESSAGE OUT.

Steve says ARE YOU PROVING
HIS POINT THOUGH?
WE'VE BEEN ON THE
PROGRAM HERE FOR, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT, 12 MINUTES SO
FAR, AND YOU'VE ATTACKED
DALTON MCGUINTY THREE TIMES.
I DON'T THINK YOU'VE SAID
MUCH ABOUT MIKE HARRIS YET.

Frances says NO, I SAID VERY CLEARLY
THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU
GET IS THE SAME THING.
AND THE HARRIS AGENDA IS
ONE THAT HAS BEEN VERY
DESTRUCTIVE TO
COMMUNITIES IN ONTARIO.
WE SEE, YOU KNOW, LOCAL
GOVERNMENTS HAVING LESS
ABILITY TO DETERMINE
THEIR OWN FUTURES.
WE'RE SEEING MORE USER
FEES IN THE HEALTH SYSTEM,
IN RECREATION, IN
MUNICIPAL SERVICES.
THERE'S A LOT OF DESTRUCTION
IN OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM.
WE ARE TALKING IN POSITIVE
WAYS ABOUT A POST-HARRIS ERA.
ALL I'M SAYING IS, YOU KNOW,
YOU GET THE SAME HARRIS
AGENDA WITH THE
LIBERAL GOVERNMENT.

Tim says THE DIALOGUE FOR
CHANGE IS NOT CONTENT.
WE'VE ISSUED...

Ruth says NOT CONTENT?
HAVE YOU READ IT?

Tim says YES, I HAVE, AND THERE'S
NOT CONTENT THERE.
I MEAN THERE'S A
SERIES OF QUITE...

Steve says I THINK THERE'S
TOO MUCH CONTENT.
IT'S A TYPICAL NDP DOCUMENT.
IT'S DRIPPING IN CONTENT.

Ruth says AND OVER THE NEXT
YEAR, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE
THE PRIORITIES
COME OUT OF THAT.
[All talking at once]

Richard says IF I MIGHT BE PERMITTED TO
GIVE THE NDP SOME ADVICE
WHICH THEY CAN TAKE...

Ruth says I ALWAYS LISTEN
TO YOU, RICHARD.

Richard says IS THAT ULTIMATELY I
UNDERSTAND, AS TIM POINTS
OUT, WHY THEY WOULD RUN
AGAINST THE LIBERALS, BUT
WHEN YOU GET TO AN ELECTION
CAMPAIGN THE NDP AND THE
LIBERALS WILL RUN
AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.
THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT.
THE GOVERNMENT HAS A RECORD.
THAT GOVERNMENT WILL TRY AND
RUN AWAY FROM THAT RECORD
AND ATTACK THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BUT BOTH OPPOSITION PARTIES
WILL FOCUS ON WHAT MIKE
HARRIS HAS DONE TO OUR
HOSPITALS, WHAT MIKE HARRIS
HAS DONE TO OUR EDUCATION
SYSTEM, AND THE KIND OF
POLITICS OF DIVISION THAT
HE PLAYS EVERY DAY WHEN HE
INCITES PEOPLE IN OTTAWA
AGAINST THE HIRING OF A
HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATOR, WHEN
HE TALKS ABOUT IMMIGRANTS
AND PAUL BERNARDO.
ALL THOSE SORT OF THINGS ARE
THINGS THAT BOTH PARTIES
WILL HAVE TO TALK ABOUT
BECAUSE THE PUBLIC WON'T
LISTEN TO A NEW DEMOCRATIC
PARTY RUNNING AGAINST THE
LIBERALS, OR FOR THAT
MATTER, THE LIBERAL PARTY
RUNNING AGAINST
THE NEW DEMOCRATS.
THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.

John says OR HIS POSITION ON ALL
THOSE ISSUES AND MANY MORE
ARE THE REASON WHY HE'S DOING
SO WELL IN THE POLLS AT THE
MOMENT, AND I'D SUGGEST TO
YOU THAT MAY BE THE CASE.
[All talking at once]
IF I CAN GIVE MY FREE
ADVICE TO THE NDP.
[Laughing]
NO, NO, NO.
BUT I WAS GOING TO
SAY POLICY DOCUMENTS
NOTWITHSTANDING, IT COMES
DOWN TO COMMON SENSE, OKAY,
AND WHETHER YOU LIKE THE
TERMINOLOGY OR NOT,
MY WORRY FOR THE NDP...

France says I DON'T LIKE
THE WAY YOU'VE PERVERTED
THE TERMINOLOGY.

John says MY CONCERN FOR THE
NDP IS -- LIKE I AGREE WITH
YOU ON THE LIBERALS AND I
THINK TIM'S ALREADY DONE
THAT IN THIS SHOW, AND
THE LACK OF SUBSTANCE AND
WAFFLING AND SAYING THAT
THAT'S WHAT MIKE SHOULD DO,
IS HE SHOULD RUN AWAY FROM
EVERYTHING HE'S DONE, AND I
THINK YOU'LL SEE THAT WHAT
HARRIS AND THE CONSERVATIVE
CAMPAIGN WILL BE ABOUT IS
ABOUT STANDING ON THE RECORD
MORE THAN ANY PREVIOUS
GOVERNMENT HAS CERTAINLY
IN ONTARIO IS THE
LAST TEN YEARS.
BUT FOR THE NDP IT'S THE
DANGER IS IN GOING OVER THE
TOP, TALKING ABOUT
DESTRUCTION AS IF WHEN WE
SAY DESTRUCTION, PEOPLE
WATCH THE NEWS EVERY NIGHT
AND DESTRUCTION TO THEM
MEANS SOMETHING BLOWING UP.
YOU DRIVE THROUGH TORONTO
THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF
THINGS BLOWING UP.

Frances says AN EMERGENCY WAITING ROOM
RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN
SEE THE DESTRUCTION IN
THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
IF YOUR KIDS THEIR CLASSROOM
DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES
THEY NEED THEN YOU CAN SEE
THE DESTRUCTION THAT'S
HAPPENING IN THE SYSTEM, AND
WHAT WE BELIEVE IS THAT THE
WORST OF THE IMPACTS
IS YET TO COME.
THAT WE'RE GOING TO
SEE MORE OF THAT.
IN FACT, I THINK THAT'S THE
ARGUMENT WHY IF YOU'RE GOING
TO TALK ABOUT A GOVERNMENT
STRATEGY AT THIS POINT IN
TIME, WHY WE'RE LIKELY TO
SEE AN EARLIER ELECTION
RATHER THAN A
LATER ELECTION.

Steve says CAN I JUST GET A
DATE FROM YOU ON THAT?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

Frances says WELL, I THINK THE LATEST
IS GOING TO BE THE SPRING.

Steve says SPRING OF '99.

Frances says SPRING OF '99.
I'M STILL KEEPING OPEN THE
POSSIBILITY THAT IT COULD BE
THIS FALL AND I'LL TELL YOU,
IN MY RIDING, I WAS THE
FIRST CANDIDATE IN THE
PROVINCE OF ONTARIO TO BE
NOMINATED ON THE NEW
RIDING BOUNDARIES.
OUR PARTY'S OUT THERE
NOMINATING PEOPLE ALL OVER
THE PROVINCE IN THE
NEXT TWO MONTHS.
WE'RE GOING TO BE READY TO
GO THIS FALL BECAUSE WE
THINK THERE'S...

Steve says THIS GUY'S NOT
GOING TO GO AFTER THREE
AND A HALF YEARS.
[All talking at once]

Frances says YOU NEVER KNOW THE NUMBERS ARE THE WAY IN
WHICH, YOU KNOW, YOU HEAR
OUR POLLSTER TALKING ABOUT
THEM TODAY, AND THE NEWS IS
ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE WITH
THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE
REST OF THE AGENDA.

Steve says IS THERE ANY WAY IN A
MILLION YEARS MIKE HARRIS IS
GOING TO CALL AN
ELECTION FOR THIS FALL?

John says THAT'S ONLY FOR THE
PREMIER TO KNOW.

Steve says I KNOW IT'S HIS
CALL, BUT THINK ABOUT IT
FOR A SECOND.

Ruth says WOULD YOU
ADVISE HIM TO?

John says I WOULDN'T ADVISE
HIM TO AT ALL.
I'D TELL HIM TO GO AS LONG
AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE I THINK
THAT YOU'RE -- RUTH,
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
ONE OF THE THINGS IS IT'S
EASY TO PASS THE LEGISLATION.
WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT THIS BEFORE.
THE HARD PART IS IN THE
IMPLEMENTATION AND EVERY DAY
IT LEADS A BIGGER CHALLENGE
THAT THERE MIGHT BE A WORSE
STORY BECAUSE OF SOME
PROBLEM WITH IMPLEMENTATION,
BUT I THINK THE LONGER
THE GOVERNMENT...

France says THIS IS
WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

John says BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO
BE PROBLEMS ALONG THE WAY.
BUT I THINK THE LONGER
THE GOVERNMENT TAKES TO
IMPLEMENT PEOPLE ARE GOING
TO SEE GREATER AND
GREATER SUCCESSES.
LIKE THIS FALL, IN HIS
EDUCATION SYSTEM, WHEN
THERE'S MORE TEXTBOOKS IN
THE CLASSROOM, NEWER ONES
THAN EITHER UNDER YOUR
PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS.

Ruth says AND EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT
THE MEMO THAT WAS SENT OUT
SAYING THAT EVERY MPP IS
GOING TO BE THERE FOR A
PHOTO OP PRESENTING
THE TEXTBOOK.
BUT THERE'S NO
LUNCHROOM SUPERVISORS.
THERE MAY BE NO
SPORTS IN THE SCHOOL.

John says YOU'RE ALL FORMER
SENIOR MEMBERS.
YOU'VE ALL DONE
PHOTO OPS.

Tim says THE REAL PROBLEM FOR THIS
GOVERNMENT IS THE OTHER SHOE
KEEPS DROPPING AND IT WILL
KEEP DROPPING FOR THE PUBLIC.
I MEAN I'VE GOT A CHILD JUST
GOING INTO THE PUBLIC SCHOOL
SYSTEM AND SHE'S
IN JK THIS YEAR.
WILL BE IN SK
NEXT YEAR.
Ruth says AT LEAST
YOU HAVE JK.

Tim says YEAH, AND WELL EXACTLY, AND
MOST OF THE PROVINCE DOESN'T.
AND WE'VE COMMITTED AS A
PARTY THAT WE WILL FUND
JK ACROSS THE PROVINCE.
THERE'S A CLEAR
POLICY FOR YOU.
THE OTHER PROBLEM YOU'VE
GOT -- AND THIS IS GOING TO
CONTINUE AS YOU LOOK AT -- I
MEAN YOU LOOK AT THE PROBLEM
THAT'S OCCURRING IN THE
LOSS OF AFTER SCHOOL SPORTS
ACTIVITIES BECAUSE OF THE
JOB AND THE EXTRA WORK
YOU'RE DUMPING ON
TEACHERS WHO ARE ALREADY
OVERBURDENED, TRYING
TO TEACH OVERBURDENED
CLASSROOMS ACROSS
THIS PROVINCE.
THE PHONY PROMISE OF AN
AVERAGE CLASSROOM SIZE.
WHEN PEOPLE SEE WHAT THAT
ACTUALLY MEANS, THAT THEY'RE
STILL GOING TO HAVE 30 AND
40 KINDS IN THE CLASSROOM
ACROSS THIS PROVINCE,
THEY'RE GOING TO GET MAD
AT THE GOVERNMENT.
AND THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF
THESE POLICIES ON A DAY TO
DAY BASIS ACROSS THE PROVINCE
IN THE MIDDLE CLASS IS GOING
TO BE THE GOVERNMENT'S
REAL, REAL DOWNFALL.

Steve says LET ME ASK FRANCES
LANKIN A QUESTION ABOUT OSHAWA.
OSHAWA IS A CITY THAT ALWAYS,
ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS
VOTED NDP.
AND LAST TIME THEY SENT
JERRY OUELLETTE, A
CONSERVATIVE TO
QUEEN'S PARK.
I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU'RE
GOING TO TELL THE PEOPLE IN
OSHAWA NEXT TIME AS
TO WHY THEY OUGHT TO
COME BACK TO YOU GUYS?

Frances says WELL I THINK PEOPLE IN
OSHAWA ARE GOING TO TAKE A
LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
TERMS OF THE HOSPITALS IN
THAT AREA, THE FACT THAT
THERE HAVE BEEN CUTS TO THE
HOSPITAL BUDGETS WHEN THERE
CONTINUES TO BE A HUGE
POPULATION GROWTH.
I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO
LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
THE DURHAM REGIONAL
CHILDREN'S REHABILITATION
CENTRE WHERE, YOU KNOW,
MONEY WAS -- GREAT FANFARE
PROMISED 600,000 DOLLARS PROMISED
TO THAT FACILITY, AND IT'S
BEEN YANKED BACK AWAY FROM
THEM AND STAFF ARE BEING
LAID OFF.
KIDS THAT WERE STARTING TO
GET SERVICE AND, YOU KNOW,
NOW CUT OFF THE LIST.
I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SHOW
THEM, YOU KNOW, IN THE AUTO
PLANTS, IN FACT, YOU KNOW,
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THEIR
COMMUNITY AS A RESULT OF
THIS TAX SCHEME THAT'S BEEN
PUT IN PLACE AND THE FACT
THAT THEIR KIDS AREN'T
BENEFITING IN THEIR
SCHOOLS OR ANYWHERE ELSE.
I MEAN THERE'S A LOT OF
POSITIVE MESSAGES FOR US TO
GO TO THE FOLKS OF OSHAWA.

Richard says THAT'S GREAT
QUESTION, STEVE.
BECAUSE THAT WILL BE FOR ALL
THREE PARTIES THE BATTLEGROUND.
IT IS FOLKS WHO LIVE IN
OSHAWA AND PLACES LIKE
OSHAWA, MIDDLE CLASS FOLKS,
WHOSE KIDS ARE, LIKE TIM'S
AND MINE, GOING INTO
THE EDUCATION SYSTEM.
ON THE OTHER END YOU'VE GOT
YOUR PARENTS PROBABLY ABOUT
TO MOVE INTO YOUR HOME
BECAUSE THEY ARE GETTING...
THEY NEED CARE.
AND SO THEY'RE GETTING
HIT FROM BOTH ENDS.
PEOPLE ARE CALLING THIS THE
SANDWICH GENERATION, AND I
THINK FOR ALL PARTIES THEY
WILL HAVE TO ACTUALLY TRY
AND TARGET MESSAGES DIRECTLY
AT THOSE PEOPLE BECAUSE
THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
TAKING IT ON THE CHIN RIGHT
NOW AND WHO ALL THOSE
INSTITUTIONS OR HOSPITALS OR
SCHOOLS ARE IN DANGER OF NOT
SORT OF MEETING THE NEEDS
OF THOSE FAMILIES.

Steve says THEY WERE TRADITIONAL BLUE
COLLAR NDP SUPPORTING
WORKERS AND NOW
THEY'RE 905-ERS.
WHICH IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT
KETTLE OF FISH, RIGHT.
905 IS TORY TERRITORY NOW.

Ruth says YEAH, BUT 905 IS
NOT HOMOGENOUS.
I MEAN THEY ARE PEOPLE
WITHIN 905 WHO ARE NO LONGER
SUPPORTERS OF THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK
OSHAWA PROBABLY IS A PLACE
WHERE BECAUSE OF THE
SPECIFIC CUTS FRANCES HAS
TALKED ABOUT, AND THE VOTING
RECORD OF THAT TOWN AND THE
UNIONIZATION OF THAT TOWN,
THERE WILL BE EVEN GREATER
DISENCHANTMENT THAN IN OTHER
PARTS OF 905.
IT'S NOT HOMOGENOUS EXCEPT
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE RESULTS
OF THE LAST ELECTION.

Ruth says YES.

Steve says THE TORIES WON EVERY SEAT
IN THE LAST ELECTION.

Frances says YOU KNOW, IN SWING
ELECTIONS, I MEAN TAKE A
LOOK AT THE
ELECTION OF 1990.
YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SEATS
THAT HAD BEEN HELD FOREVER
BY THE TORIES THAT NEW
DEMOCRATS WERE ELECTED IN.
WE'RE SEEING A GREATER
DEGREE OF VOLATILITY IN THE
PUBLIC AND THAT'S WHY -- I
WANT TO AGREE WITH SOMETHING
THAT RUTH SAID EARLIER.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
THERE IS NOTHING FOR CERTAIN
UNTIL YOU...
[Chuckling]

Tim says ALWAYS
STICKING TOGETHER.

Frances says THERE'S NOTHING FOR CERTAIN
UNTIL YOU GET THE ELECTION
WRIT DROPPED BECAUSE AT THAT
POINT IN TIME, PEOPLE'S
ATTENTION GETS FOCUSED
ON THE POLITICS OF THE
PROVINCE, ON THE LEADERS,
ON THE MESSAGES, ON THE
PLATFORMS, AND I THINK THEN
YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE
NATURE OF WHERE PEOPLE
ARE RELATIVELY CHANGE.

Steve says LAST 30 SECONDS.

John says SHE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
FIRST DECISION IN THE NEXT
ELECTION IS GOING TO BE
WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE
HAPPY WITH THE GOVERNMENT
THEY'VE GOTTEN FROM MIKE
HARRIS IN THE TERM, AND THEN
THEN THE SECOND CHOICE IS
IS THERE ANYBODY BETTER
TO VOTE FOR?

Tim says THERE IS ONLY ONE OPTION,
AND THAT'S DALTON MCGUINTY.

Ruth says BUT THE FIRST QUESTION
IS GOING TO BE AM I
PERSONALLY BETTER OFF AS
MIKE HARRIS PROMISED ME
I WAS GOING TO BE?
HAVE I HAD A TAX CUT?
HAVE I GOT A JOB?
HAVE ALL THOSE BUMS ON
WELFARE IN FACT BEEN DEALT
WITH AND AS THEY ANSWER THAT
QUESTION, MORE OF THEM WILL
SEE THAT THEY'RE NOT
IN FACT BETTER OFF.

Steve says OKAY, THAT'S OUR
TIME, FOLKS.
MANY THANKS TO ALL OF
YOU FOR COMING IN TODAY.
FRANCES LANKIN, TIM MURPHY.
WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

Francis and Tim says THANK YOU.

Steve says GANG, WE'LL SEE
YOU AGAIN NEXT TIME.
AND THANKS TO ALL
OF YOU FOR WATCHING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN, AND WE'LL
SEE YOU ALL NEXT WEEK
FOR ANOTHER EDITION
OF 4th READING.
SO LONG.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the
conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TV Ontario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #127 "On Their Mark"