Transcript: Show #125 "Tuition Deregulated" | May 17, 1998

The opening sequence rolls. Music plays as clips show politicians and the Canadian
stock market in session, and an animated number 4 appears.

Steve says THIS
WEEK, THE HIGH COST
OF HIGHER LEARNING.

A clip shows protestors picketing about education, then changes to a woman
speaking.

Alejandra says DO I MORTGAGE
MY EDUCATION,
AND IT'S LIKE
A RISK VENTURE,
PLANNING IN ADVANCE
TO MAKE MONEY
IN ORDER TO PAY
BACK A HUGE DEBT.

Dave says ACCESS WILL
NOT BE DENIED.
THE VERY FIRST PRIORITY
HERE IS ANY STUDENT
WHO QUALITIES
MUST BE ACCEPTED.

Steve says DEREGULATING
UNIVERSITY TUITION FEES
IN TORY ONTARIO.

Steve, Ruth, Jim, Richard and Hugh sit with two guests around a table in the
shape of a number 4. A logo on screen reads "4th reading."

Steve is in his early forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's
wearing a dark red coat over a black shirt.

Steve says GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYONE,
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
AND WELCOME TO THIS
EDITION OF 4TH READING.
IT IS A DREAM OF MANY
A MIDDLE CLASS PARENT.
YOU'VE PUT A LITTLE
SOMETHING ASIDE EVERY
MONTH FOR YEARS WITH
THE HOPE YOUR KID
WILL BE ABLE TO GET
A POST SECONDARY
EDUCATION SOME DAY.
HE OR SHE HAS WORKED
HARD TO GET THE GRADES
TO GET INTO MED
SCHOOL OR LAW SCHOOL,
BUT IS THAT DREAM
STILL ACHIEVEABLE?
THE GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED
TWO WEEKS AGO IT WAS
DEREGULATING TUITION
FEES FOR PROFESSIONAL
FACULTIES AND POST
GRADUATE STUDIES.
UNIVERSITIES HAVE
RESPONDED ALMOST
IMMEDIATELY BY HIKING
THOSE FEES BIG TIME.
THE GOVERNMENT SAYS NO
STUDENT WILL BE DENIED
AN EDUCATION FOR
FINANCIAL REASONS.
OTHERS AREN'T SO SURE.

A clip shows students protesting in the street with pickets.

Steve says
NEARLY 200 STUDENTS
BLOCKED TRAFFIC
IN DOWNTOWN
TORONTO THIS WEEK.
THEY WERE PROTESTING THE
GOVERNMENT'S DECISION
TO DEREGULATE POST
GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL
TUITION FEES.
STUDENTS SAY TUITION
FEES COULD SKYROCKET,
EVENTUALLY SHOOTING
UP TO 11,000 DOLLARS
FOR THE MEDICAL PROGRAM AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
THEY SAY IT WILL SCARE
SOME STUDENTS AWAY,
AND LEAVE OTHERS SADDLED
WITH MASSIVE DEBTS TO REPAY.

Alejandra Bravo is in her twenties and has wavy brown hair and wears a blue
vest.

The caption appears on screen and it reads "Alejandra Bravo."

Alejandra is shown walking into a building.

Alejandra says I'M 27 YEARS OLD.
I HAVE A TWO-YEAR-OLD
DAUGHTER.
OVER THE LAST SEVEN
YEARS I'VE BEEN WORKING
TO SUPPORT MYSELF.
AT THIS POINT, I'M FACED
WITH THE SITUATION
OF HAVING BEEN ACCEPTED
INTO LAW SCHOOL
AT OSGOODE HALL, AND
THEN NOT KNOWING
WHAT THE TUITION WILL BE SET
AT BECAUSE OF DEREGULATION,
AND BECAUSE IT'S
SUCH A LATE POINT.
I WANT TO GO
TO LAW SCHOOL.
IT'S SOMETHING I
KNOW I'M ABLE TO DO.
I WANT TO DO IT.
I THINK IT WOULD BE
GOOD FOR MY FUTURE,
THE FUTURE OF
MY DAUGHTER,
BUT DO I MORTGAGE
MY EDUCATION?
IT'S LIKE A RISK
VENTURE.
PLANNING IN ADVANCE TO
MAKE MONEY
IN ORDER TO PAY
BACK A HUGE DEBT.

Steve says UNIVERSITIES SAY
THE PROBLEM IS SIMPLE.
THEY HAVE TO INCREASE
TUITION FEES TO MAKE UP
FOR PROVINCIAL CUTBACKS.

Derek McCammond is in his sixties and has a gray beard and is balding with gray
hair, he wears a white shirt with gray stripes and a gray tie.

The caption changes to "Derek McCammond. Vice-Provost, Planning and Budget, U of
T."

Derek speaks to the camera.

Derek says THE REVENUE FROM THESE FEE
INCREASES WILL ENABLE US
TO STOP DETERIORATION OF
THE PROGRAM THAT
WOULD HAVE RESULTED FROM
THAT GRANT REDUCTION.
AND ALSO TO BEGIN
THE REINVESTMENT
IN THESE PROGRAMS TO
ENHANCE QUALITY.

Steve says THE MINISTER OF
EDUCATION SAYS HE WON'T
CHANGE THE POLICY,
DESPITE OPPOSITION
FROM THE STUDENTS.

The caption changes to "Dave Johnson. Education Minister.

Dave is in his fifties and has brown hair that is parted on the side and a black
blazer, white shirt and tie with silver circles.

Dave says AGAIN I WANT TO STRESS
THAT I'VE HAD THE ASSURANCE
OF THE COUNCIL
OF UNIVERSITIES
THAT ACCESS WILL
NOT BE DENIED.
THE VERY FIRST PRIORITY
HERE IS THAT ANY STUDENT
WHO QUALIFIES
MUST BE ACCEPTED.
THEN WE HAVE TO SIT DOWN
AND FIGURE OUT WHAT SORT OF
FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE
DOES THIS STUDENT NEED?
BUT ACCESS WILL
NOT BE DENIED.

Dalton speaks to the legislature.

Dalton is in his forties and has brown hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a
purple blazer, lilac shirt, and black, yellow, and purple square printed tie.
The caption reads "Dalton McGuinty. Ont. Liberal Leader."

Dalton says YOU HAVE INCREASED
TUITION FEES BY A MINIMUM
60 PERCENT, IN SOME
CASES THEY'RE GOING UP
TO 100 PERCENT IN
CASES OF DEREGULATION.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED
NEW STUDENT ASSISTANCE.
WHAT HAPPENED?
NORMALLY PEOPLE ARE
CONVERTED ON THE ROAD
TO DAMASCUS: YOU LOST YOUR
SOUL ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS!
WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR
INTEREST IN STUDENTS?

Steve says ALL RIGHT, ARE THE TORIES
SHIFTING THE COST
OF HIGHER LEARNING
FROM THE GOVERNMENT
TO STUDENTS THEMSELVES?
LET'S TAKE A LOOK INSIDE
OUR FACT FILES AT HOW
THESE PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN
FUNDED SINCE
THE TORIES CAME TO POWER
THREE YEARS AGO.

A slate appears under the title " 4th Reading Fact File: University Operating
Grants." It reads "95-98: -$296 m."

Steve says TORIES HAVE CUT 296 MILLION DOLLARS IN UNIVERSITY OPERATING GRANTS
FROM 1994, 1995, THAT’S THE YEAR BEFORE THEY CAME INTO POWER TO TODAY.

A slate appears under the title " 4th Reading Fact File: Student Supports" It
reads "95-98: +$390 m."

Steve says ON THE OTHER HAND THEY HAVE INCREASED THE AMOUNT AVIALBLE FOR STUDENT
SUPPORT THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHICH IS STUDENT LOANS BY 390 MILLION DOLLARS.
THAT’S THE KEY DIFFERENCE,
OF COURSE,
THE UNIVERSITY GRANTS ARE
MONEY THE GOVERNMENT PAYS
OUT ONLY, STUDENT
LOANS ARE MONEY
THAT IT GETS BACK
IN LOAN REPAYMENTS.
THEORETICALLY, ANYWAY.
THOSE FIGURES, BY THE WAY,
COURTESY OF THE MINISTRY
OF FINANCIAL
PROVINCIAL ESTIMATES.
ALL RIGHT, WITH US TO TALK
ABOUT THE NEW REALITIES
OF FINANCING
HIGHER EDUCATION,
HERE'S ROB PRICHARD.
HE'S THE PRESIDENT
OF CANADA'S LARGEST
UNIVERSITY, 53,000 FULL
AND PART-TIME STUDENTS,
THAT'S THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO.
WELCOME TO YOU.
IT'S NICE TO
HAVE YOU HERE.

Rob is in his forties and has blonde hair that is parted to the side and is
clean-shaven. He wears a black blazer, white shirt, and blue ties with white
designs.

Rob says THANK YOU,
STEVE.

Steve says YOU KNOW OUR GANG OVER
HERE FROM THE OTTAWA
LAW FIRM, FRASER AND BEATTY,
THERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY,
THE PAST PRESIDENT OF
THE ONTARIO LIBERALS,

Richard Mahoney is in his fifties and has gray hair and is clean-shaven. He
wears a gray blazer, a light blue shirt and a blue patterned tie.

Steve continues MAC PENNEY FROM
GOVERNMENT POLICY
CONSULTANTS, LONG
TIME TORY SUPPORTER,

Mac is in his fifties and has gray hair and is clean-shaven. He wears a black
blazer, white shirt and black tie with silver diamonds.

Steve says AND RUTH GRIER, FORMER
NDP CABINET MINISTER
DURING THE BOB
RAE YEARS.

Ruth Grier is in her sixties, with short white hair. She wears a orange long
sleeved shirt with a red and orange scarf and light pink purl bulbous earrings.

Steve says ACCESS SEEMS TO BE KEY
FOR EVERYBODY RIGHT NOW.
AND PEOPLE ARE FREAKING
THEY'RE NOT GOING
TO BE ABLE TO
AFFORD TO GO.
ARE YOU TELLING
US HERE TODAY,
NO STUDENT WILL BE DENIED
A SPOT AT UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO IF THEY'VE
GOT THE MARKS,
BUT THEY HAVEN'T
GOT THE DOUGH?

The caption changes to "Robert Prichard. President, U of T."

Robert says GUARANTEED.
GUARANTEED IN WRITING,
EVERY SINGLE STUDENT
AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO -
WE GUARANTEE WE WILL
PROVIDE ACCESS
TO WHATEVER FINANCIAL
RESOURCES THEY NEED
TO MEET THE COST OF COMING
TO THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO,
TO THE EXTENT IT'S NOT
PROVIDED BY GOVERNMENT
FINANCIAL AID PLANS.
WE WILL DO IT.
IT'S THE FIRST
CLAIM ON OUR BUDGET.
WE'LL PUT 55 MILLION DOLLARS
INTO OUR BUDGET
FOR THIS PURPOSE.
55 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
FOR THIS PURPOSE.

Steve says WHAT'S YOUR
BUDGET THOUGH?

Robert says THE BUDGET IS
600 MILLION DOLLARS.
55 MILLION DOLLARS OF THE 600 DOLLARS
MILLION IS FOR STUDENT AID
TO MEET THIS
GUARANTEE FOR EVERY
SINGLE STUDENT,
GUARANTEED.
NO EQUIVOCATION.
GUARANTEED.

Steve says THAT WILL DO IT?

Robert says THAT WILL DO IT.
AND IF IT WON'T DO IT, FOR
ANY REASON IT WON'T DO IT,
WE SAY IT'S THE FIRST
CLAIM ON THE BUDGET,
IT COMES RIGHT OFF THE
TOP OF THE BUDGET
UNTIL IT'S MET THE NEED
OF EVERY SINGLE STUDENT.

Steve says IS THAT A GRANT
IF YOU'RE A LOAN?

Robert says IT'S A GRANT IF YOU'RE AN
UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT,
IT'S A COMBINATION OF
GRANT AND LOAN
IF YOU'RE A
GRADUATE STUDENT.
AND IF YOU'RE IN A
HIGH-INCOME PROFESSION,
IT'S A LOAN BUT WITH A
PROVISION THAT IF
YOU GRADUATE, SAY IN
MEDICINE OR LAW,
AND GO INTO A
LOW-INCOME CAREER,
SAY YOU GO WORK IN A
LEGAL AID CLINIC
INSTEAD OF IN A
CORPORATE LAW FIRM,
WE'LL GIVE YOU
REMISSION OF YOUR LOAN,
IF YOUR INCOME STAYS LOW
BECAUSE YOU'VE CHOSEN
A LOW-INCOME CAREER.

Steve says WHY DON'T STUDENTS
BELIEVE THAT?

Robert says STUDENTS
DO BELIEVE IT.

Steve says THEY'RE PROTESTING IN THE
STREETS BECAUSE THEY'RE
WORRIED THEY'RE NOT GOING
TO HAVE ENOUGH DOUGH
OR BE IN TOO MUCH DEBT BY
THE TIME THEY GET OUT.

Robert says LET'S KEEP IT
IN PERSPECTIVE.
OVER 95 PERCENT OF THE
STUDENTS IN UNIVERSITIES
IN ONTARIO NEXT YEAR WILL
PAY 2 DOLLARS A DAY OR LESS
MORE THAN THEY DID THIS
YEAR FOR UNIVERSITY.
OVER 95 PERCENT OF THE
STUDENTS, FOR STARTERS.
SECOND, I BELIEVE
MOST STUDENTS,
STUDENTS ARE SMART.
STUDENTS KNOW IT'S
IN THEIR INTEREST
TO GET THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE
QUALITY OF EDUCATION.
OUR APPLICATIONS
KEEP GOING UP.
OUR APPLICATION IS UP 10
PERCENT TWO YEARS AGO,
10 PERCENT AGAIN LAST
YEAR, UP AGAIN THIS YEAR.
STUDENTS WANT A VERY
HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION.
AND THEY KNOW IT'S
REASONABLE TO PAY A FAIR
SHARE OF IT, AS LONG AS
THE GUARANTEE I SPOKE OF
THAT EVERY SINGLE STUDENT
IS GUARANTEED IN WRITING,
WE WILL PROVIDE FOR ALL
YOUR NEEDS, GUARANTEED.

Steve says OKAY, RUTH, EVERY
GOVERNMENT IN THE PAST,
YOUR GOVERNMENT, RICHARD
MAHONEY'S GOVERNMENT,
THE LIBERALS WHEN
THEY WERE IN POWER,
INCREASED TUITION FEES.
EVERYBODY DOES IT.
WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THE
WAY THESE GUYS ARE DOING IT?

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says I THINK WHAT'S DIFFERENT
ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW
IS THAT IT REALLY IS
A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT
IN MAKING EDUCATION
A PRIVATE MATTER,
AS OPPOSED TO A PUBLIC
RESPONSIBILITY.
WE REALLY HAVE UNREGULATED
USER FEES AT THIS POINT.
AND THE UNIVERSITIES
ARE PICKING UP
WHAT WAS GOVERNMENT'S
ROLE, AND ASSURING,
AS ROB IS SAYING
U OF T IS GOING TO DO,
THAT ACCESS IS
NOT DIMINISHED.
SO THAT HAS SHIFTED FROM
BEING THE GOVERNMENT'S
RESPONSIBILITY TO
THE UNIVERSITY
IN THE PRIVATE SECTORS.
AND WHAT INTERESTS ME
ABOUT ROB'S COMMENTS
ARE U OF T WITH ITS SIZE AND
RESOURCES CAN MAYBE
GIVE THE GUARANTEE
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT,
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE
OTHER UNIVERSITIES?
CAN THEY ALL SAY
THE SAME THING?

Robert says EVERY UNIVERSITY.
IT'S JUST A MATTER
OF PRIORITY.
WHAT PRIORITY TO
ASSIGN TO STUDENT
FINANCIAL AID?
AND IF YOU MAKE IT
YOUR TOP PRIORITY
AS A UNIVERSITY, IF YOU
SAY IT'S OFF THE TOP
OF THE BUDGET, IT'S
GUARANTEED, IT IS GUARANTEED.

Steve says NOW, YOU'RE ALSO THE
CHAIR OF THE COUNCIL
OF ONTARIO UNIVERSITIES,
SO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF
THE PICTURE ACROSS
THE WHOLE PROVINCE.
HOW BIG A PRIORITY ARE
OTHER UNIVERSITIES
PUTTING ON THIS AS WELL?

Robert says EVERY UNIVERSITY IS
REQUIRED, BY LAW,
AS A MINIMUM, TO TAKE
30 PERCENT OF EVERY NEW DOLLAR
OF TUITION FEE
REVENUE AND GIVE IT
TO THE STUDENTS FOR
STUDENT FINANCIAL AID
BASED ON NEED.
IT'S A MATTER OF LAW.
THE POLICY REQUIRES IT.
EVERY UNIVERSITY IN
ONTARIO IS COMMITTED
TO THE PROPOSITION THAT NO
QUALIFIED STUDENT
WILL BE DENIED A PLACE
BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE
ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES
SHE NEEDS.
WE DON'T DO IT ALONE.
THE GOVERNMENT MAKES A
MASSIVE INVESTMENT
IN STUDENT FINANCIAL AID,
BUT THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.
ON TOP OF THAT, EACH
UNIVERSITY IS PUTTING
ITS RESOURCES NECESSARY
TO MAKE THIS GUARANTEE.
WHEN THE MINISTER SAYS
WE'VE GIVEN THE GUARANTEE
FROM THE COUNCIL OF
ONTARIO UNIVERSITIES,
WE HAVE GIVEN
THE GUARANTEE,
WE'LL LIVE BY
THE GUARANTEE.
THIS POLICY WILL
WORK.

Steve says I WANT TO FIND
OUT FROM RICK.
WHERE DID YOU GO
TO LAW SCHOOL?

Richard says UNIVERSITY
OF OTTAWA.

Steve says DO YOU REMEMBER HOW
MUCH DEBT YOU WERE IN
BY THE TIME
YOU GOT OUT?
ABOUT 13,000 DOLLARS,
AS I RECALL.

Steve says SO HALF AS
MUCH AS STUDENTS
WHO GRADUATE TODAY
ON AVERAGE.

Richard says YEAH.

Steve says AND IF YOU'RE A
LAW STUDENT TODAY,
PROBABLY WAY
MORE THAN THAT.
THE AVERAGE IS
25 GRAND TODAY.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ont. Liberal Advisor."

Richard says THAT'S RIGHT.
IT'S ONLY GOING TO
INCREASE BECAUSE
THESE FEES ARE
BEING DEREGULATED.
THE QUESTION IS, RUTH
DID SORT OF IDENTIFY
THE ISSUE, WHERE ARE WE
GOING TO PUT THE BALANCE
IN THIS TRANSFER?
AS GOVERNMENTS
WITHDRAW, I MEAN,
EVERY UNIVERSITY IN
THIS PROVINCE HAS HAD
ITS FUNDING CUT.
UNIVERSITY OF
TORONTO, FRANKLY,
HAS RESPONDED IN A
COURAGEOUS WAY TO BE ABLE
TO MAKE THAT GUARANTEE.
THAT GUARANTEE, FRANKLY,
NEEDS TO BE EXTENDED
ACROSS THE PROVINCE, NOT
JUST BY UNIVERSITIES,
ALTHOUGH I APPLAUD
THAT U OF T DID IT,
BUT ALSO BY GOVERNMENTS.
ONE OF THE THINGS
FEDERAL AND PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING
TO HAVE TO DO IS SAY
TO MIDDLE CLASS PARENTS
THAT YOUR KIDS ARE
GOING TO HAVE THE
CHANCE THAT YOU DID.
THAT WE'RE GOING
TO MAKE SURE,
WHETHER IT'S THROUGH
SAVINGS PLANS,
WHETHER IT'S THROUGH
LOANS, GRANTS,
WHATEVER HAVE YOU, THAT
WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE
THAT YOUR KIDS HAVE THE
CHANCE TO GO TO SCHOOL.
YOU WON'T HAVE TO
MORTGAGE YOUR FUTURE.

Steve says EVERYBODY
IS SAYING THAT.

Richard says THAT LOAN THAT THE
STUDENT GRADUATES WITH,
WITH AT LEAST
BE MANAGEABLE.

Steve says BUT RICK, HIS GOVERNMENT
IS SAYING THAT,
HIS UNIVERSITY
IS SAYING THAT,
EVERYBODY IS SAYING THAT,
BUT THERE STILL SEEMS
TO BE A GREAT DEAL
OF CONSTERNATION
IN THE AIR
ABOUT THIS.

Richard says I THINK U OF T SAID THAT.
FRANKLY, I DON'T THINK ANY
PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENT
YET IN CANADA HAS YET TO
MAKE THAT GUARANTEE BECAUSE
WE'RE NOT YET IN THE
POSITION TO DO THAT.
BUT PEOPLE ARE MOVING
DOWN THAT ROAD.
AND THE QUESTION IS,
AT THE END OF THE DAY,
ALSO THE QUESTION IS,
HOW DO YOU DELIVER
THAT GUARANTEE?

Robert says BUT THERE ARE MORE
STUDENTS THAN EVER
PARTICIPATING IN
UNIVERSITY TODAY.
FAR MORE IN YOUR
GENERATION AND MINE,
TODAY, ARE GOING
TO UNIVERSITY.
THERE'S FAR GREATER
DEMOCRATIZATION OF ACCESS
TO OUR INSTITUTIONS
TODAY THAN THERE WAS
AT ANY TIME IN
OUR HISTORY.
THERE'S BROADER
PARTICIPATION,
THERE'S GREATER
OPPORTUNITY FOR YOUNG
PEOPLE TODAY THAN
THERE WAS AT ANY TIME
IN OUR PAST.
YOU TALK ABOUT
25,000 DOLLARS AVERAGE DEBT,
YOU GAVE THE FIGURE.
FIRST OF ALL
IT'S NOT TRUE.
THE AVERAGE DEBT FOR PEOPLE
WHO HAVE DEBT IS $17,000.
AND SECOND, LESS THAN HALF
THE STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE
FROM UNIVERSITIES
HAVE ANY DEBT.
IT'S JUST UNDER 50
PERCENT HAVE ANY DEBT.
SO THE AVERAGE DEBT OF ALL
STUDENTS IS ABOUT 8,000 DOLLARS.

Steve says SO WHERE IS THIS 25
FIGURE COMING FROM?
BECAUSE IT'S OUT THERE
ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Richard says THIS NUMBER IS
THROWN OUT.
IT IS NOT
BASED IN FACT.
THERE IS NO STUDY OF
ANY SUBSTANCE
THAT WILL SUPPORT IT.
WE'VE DONE A CAREFUL STUDY
OF THE ACTUAL DEBT
OF OUR STUDENTS, NOT THE
RUMOURED DEBT, AND 17,000 DOLLAR
IS THE AVERAGE DEBT
OF A GRADUATING STUDENT
WITH A FOUR YEAR DEGREE.
AND LESS THAN HALF THE
STUDENTS THAT GRADUATE
ACTUALLY HAVE
ANY DEBT AT ALL.

The caption changes to "Mac Penney. Ont. PC Advisor."

Mac says I THINK IT'S ALSO
IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND
THAT ACCESS CAN'T BE
THE ONLY GOAL
OF THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM,
OR THE COLLEGE SYSTEM.
THERE HAS TO BE A BALANCE
NOT ONLY BETWEEN SOURCES
OF FINANCING BUT BETWEEN
ACCESS AND QUALITY.
THE STUDENTS DON'T
ONLY NEED ACCESS
TO AN EDUCATION,
THEY NEED ACCESS
TO A QUALITY EDUCATION.
AND TO DO THAT, IT'S GOING
TO BE NECESSARY, I THINK,
OVER TIME, AND CERTAINLY
OVER THE LAST DECADE
WE'VE SEEN IT, TO ADDRESS
THE FUNDING ISSUE
IN TERMS OF BOTH
QUALITY AND ACCESS.

Steve says YOU DISAGREE
WITH YOUR PREMIER.
YOUR PREMIER SAYS -
OUR PREMIER SAYS -

Richard says IT’S HIS
PREMIER, ACTUALLY.

Steve says THERE'S NO RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN THE AMOUNT
OF MONEY YOU SPEND AND THE
QUALITY OF THE SERVICE.
IN OTHER WORDS WHAT
HE'S SAYING IS,
IF I DOUBLED U OF T'S
BUDGET TOMORROW,
THAT WOULDN'T MAKE
IT TWICE AS GOOD.
HE'S PROBABLY RIGHT
ABOUT THAT, ISN'T HE?

Robert says A LOT OF RESPECT FOR THE
PREMIER AND HIS JUDGMENT,
BUT ON THIS ISSUE,
HE'S NOT CORRECT.
THE BIGGEST SINGLE
PROBLEM AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO IN TERMS OF
PROVIDING AN EDUCATION
OF THE HIGHEST
POSSIBLE QUALITY,
COMPETITIVE WITH THE BEST
EDUCATIONS AROUND
THE WORLD - BECAUSE DON'T
FORGET, OUR GRADUATES,
THEY DON'T JUST NEED TO
COMPETE WITH THE STUDENT
THEY SIT BESIDE
IN THE CLASSROOM,
IN A GLOBAL ECONOMY,
THEY HAVE TO COMPETE
WITH STUDENTS FROM
AROUND THE WORLD,
AND OUR BIGGEST DIFFICULTY
IN THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO IS WE SPEND TOO
LITTLE TO PROVIDE
AN ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING
QUALITY OF EDUCATION.
FOR EVERY DOLLAR WE SPEND
AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO, THE
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN,
ONLY 250 MILES AWAY, PUBLIC
UNIVERSITY SPENDS 2 DOLLARS.
FOR EVERY DOLLAR WE
SPEND AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF TORONTO, THE
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA
AT BERKELEY, 2 DOLLARS,
AT UCLA, 2 DOLLARS.
SO OUR PROBLEM IS HOW TO
NARROW THAT GAP THROUGH
GOVERNMENT INVESTING
MORE, THROUGH THE PRIVATE
SECTOR INVESTING MORE,
THROUGH PHILANTHROPISTS
GIVING MORE, AND THROUGH
STUDENTS PAYING A FAIR SHARE.

Mac says AND I THINK THE SORT
OF FUNDING FORMULAS
WHICH HAVE BEEN RECENTLY
ANNOUNCED BY THE MINISTER
MAKE SOME EFFORT TO
ADDRESS THOSE DEFICIENCIES
IN THE CURRENT SITUATION.
THEY ARE LINKED
SPECIFICALLY TO NOT
ONLY HIGH DEMAND PROGRAMS
IN HIGH DEMAND AREAS,
COMPUTER SCIENCE
AND ENGINEERING,
BUT THEY REQUIRE
ACCOUNTABILITY
ON THE PART OF THE
INSTITUTION TO JUSTIFY
THEIR EXPENDITURES IN
TERMS OF BETTER COMPUTERS,
BETTER LAB EQUIPMENT,
MORE PROFESSORS
IN THE CLASSROOMS,
MORE TUTORIAL ABILITY,
BETTER LIBRARIES.
SO IN TERMS OF THE QUALITY
LINKED TO THE DOLLAR,
I THINK THERE'S
AN EFFORT THERE,
AND WE MIGHT ARGUE ABOUT
WHETHER IT WAS ENOUGH
OF AN EFFORT, OR
QUANTITATIVELY IT SHOULD
HAVE BEEN MORE, BUT I
THINK IT'S CERTAINLY
A STEP IN THE
RIGHT DIRECTION.

Richard says MAC, WE ARE IN THIS
PROVINCE, ACTUALLY,
HEADING IN A DIFFERENT
DIRECTION THAN MOST
OTHER JURISDICTIONS
IN THIS COUNTRY,
IN FACT IN NORTH AMERICA.
ALTHOUGH UNIVERSITIES ARE
NOW GOING TO GET A LITTLE
BIT MORE ACCESS TO SOME
ADDITIONAL DOLLARS
THROUGH TUITION
FEE INCREASES,
ONTARIO HAS NOW DROPPED
TO LAST IN PER CAPITA
FUNDING FOR THE POST
SECONDARY SECTOR IN CANADA.
WHEREAS SINCE THE HARRIS
TORIES HAVE BEEN IN POWER,
WE'VE CUT TRANSFERS
TO UNIVERSITIES BY
15 PERCENT, IN THE STATES
THEY'VE GONE UP BY 10 PERCENT.
I WAS VISITING SOME
FRIENDS IN THE STATES
LAST WEEKEND, AND I WAS
LISTENING TO THEM TALK.
THEY'RE BOTH
WELL-EDUCATED.
ONE HAS A DOCTORATE
IN PSYCHOLOGY,
THE OTHER ONE
HAS A MASTERS,
THEY ARE COMING TO GRIPS
WITH THE FACT THEY
WON'T BE ABLE TO SAVE
ENOUGH FOR THEIR KIDS.
THEY ACTUALLY SAID TO ME,
OUR KIDS AREN'T GOING
TO HAVE THE
CHANCE WE DID.

Steve says YOU KNOW THE IRONY?
THE IRONY OF THIS IS
THAT AS THE PROVINCIAL
GOVERNMENT CUTS BACK
MONEY TO YOUR UNIVERSITY,
YOUR FUNDRAISERS HAVE
NEVER HAD IT BETTER.
THEY'RE RAISING HUNDREDS
OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

Richard says BECAUSE
THEY HAVE TO.

Robert says STEVE, FUNDRAISING CAN NEVER
SUBSTITUTE FOR ADEQUATE
AND REASONABLE PUBLIC
INVESTMENT IN HIGHER EDUCATION.
HIGHER EDUCATION IN CANADA,
PARTICULARLY IN ONTARIO,
IS A PUBLIC UNDERTAKING.
IT'S OF ENORMOUS BENEFIT
TO THE STUDENTS,
BUT OF ENORMOUS BENEFIT
TO THE PROVINCE,
AND ALL THE PEOPLE
OF THE PROVINCE.
AND WE MUST GET
A COMMITMENT.
AND I HOPE PEOPLE FROM
ALL THREE PARTIES,
ON A NON-PARTISAN BASIS,
EACH PARTY WOULD COMMIT
ITSELF TO SAYING
ONTARIO WILL SPEND,
ON ITS STUDENTS, AT LEAST
AT THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
UNDER THE TORIES OF
THE EARLIER PERIOD,
BEFORE THE PETERSON
GOVERNMENT,
WE WERE EIGHTH OUT
OF TEN IN CANADA.
UNDER THE LIBERAL
GOVERNMENT,
WE WERE EIGHTH OUT
OF TEN IN CANADA.
UNDER THE NDP WE
FELL TO NINTH,
AND UNDER THE CURRENT
TORY GOVERNMENT,
WITH THE COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION,
WE FELL TO TENTH
OUT OF TEN.
THREE PARTIES IN ONTARIO,
OVER MORE THAN 15 YEARS,
WE'VE LANGUISHED BETWEEN
EIGHTH AND TENTH OUT OF
TEN IN CANADA IN SUPPORT
FOR OUR UNIVERSITY STUDENTS.
WE SHOULD BE AT THE
NATIONAL AVERAGE.

Ruth says I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU
THERE OUGHT TO BE
A PUBLIC COMMITMENT
TO EDUCATION,
BUT I REALLY CAN'T
RECONCILE THAT
WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING
WITH THIS CURRENT MOVE,
WHICH TO ME IS A SHIFTING
OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY
FROM GOVERNMENT TO,
AS I WAS SAYING,
THE UNIVERSITY AND
THE PRIVATE SECTOR.
AND I GUESS WHAT ALSO
BOTHERS ME ABOUT IT
IS I THINK IT'S GOING TO
LEAD TO A GROWING DISPARITY
BETWEEN ONTARIO'S
UNIVERSITIES.
U OF T CAN ATTRACT THE
BRIGHTEST AND BEST,
AND HAS THE RESOURCES
AND HAS THE SIZE.
DO YOU REALLY FEEL THAT
THE WHOLE QUESTION
OF QUALITY THAT MAC WAS
TALKING ABOUT CAN BE RETAINED
IN THE OTHER
UNIVERSITIES THAT
ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE
THE ADVANTAGES OF U OF T?

Robert says RUTH, AGAIN, ONE COULD
IMAGINE IT MIGHT WORK OUT
A BIT DIFFERENTLY AT
DIFFERENT PLACES,
BUT WHAT DID THE
GOVERNMENT DO?
READ THE BUDGET THAT
CAME OUT THE SAME DAY
AS THE TUITION POLICY.
THE BUDGET SAYS WE'RE
PROVIDING 29 MILLION DOLLARS
OF NEW BASE INCREASE MONEY
TO THOSE UNIVERSITIES
LEAST ABLE TO RAISE
MONEY FROM TUITION.
THIS IS THE BIGGEST
INCREASE IN OPERATING
BUDGET FOR THOSE
UNIVERSITIES SINCE THE 1980s.
SO THE GOVERNMENT HAS
SIMULTANEOUSLY MADE
A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT,
OF WHICH U OF T GETS ZERO,
QUEEN'S GET ZERO,
MCMASTER GETS ZERO,
BUT UNIVERSITIES
THAT MIGHT HAVE MORE
DIFFICULTY, PARTICULARLY
IN THE NORTH,
THEY'RE GIVING VERY
SUBSTANTIAL BUDGET INCREASES
TO THEM, MUCH
LARGER INCREASES THAN THE
FULL INCREASE WE'LL
GET FROM TUITION.
SO IT TAKES A BALANCE
OF STUDENT SHARE,
PUBLIC INVESTMENT,
PRIVATE GIVING,
SUPPORT FROM ALL
THE DIFFERENT -
SO WE HAVE QUALITY AT
EACH OF OUR UNIVERSITIES.
DISTINCTIVE, AT EACH,
BUT QUALITY AT EACH.

Ruth says THAT 29 DOESN'T
COME NEAR TO MEETING -

Richard says WHAT IS A FAIR SHARE?
WHAT SHARE, WHAT
PERCENTAGE SHOULD
STUDENTS PAY?
HARRIS SAID, I THINK,
DURING THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION THAT HE
FAVOURED A TUITION FEE
INCREASE UP TO 25 PERCENT
OF THE BASE OPERATING COSTS.
WE'RE NOW AT
30 SOMETHING.
WHAT IS A FAIR SHARE?
WHEN I WENT TO SCHOOL,
I THINK IT WAS 13
OR SOMETHING.

Robert says PERSONALLY, I'D LIKE THE
SHARE TO BE AS LOW AS POSSIBLE.
I BELIEVE POWERFULLY
IN PUBLIC INVESTMENT
IN OUR CAUSE.
BUT EVEN MORE POWERFULLY,
I BELIEVE
IN THE IMPORTANCE OF
THE STUDENTS GETTING
A VERY HIGH QUALITY
EDUCATION.
AND THAT'S WHAT
STUDENTS BELIEVE IN,
THAT'S WHAT THEIR
FAMILY BELIEVE IN.
WE'RE MOVING UP MEDICAL
SCHOOL TUITION BECAUSE
MEDICAL STUDENTS ARE ONLY
PAYING 10 PERCENT
OF THE COST OF
THEIR EDUCATION.
SO WE'RE MOVING
IT UP RATHER MORE.
WE'RE FREEZING TUITION
IN OUR TRANSITIONAL YEAR
PROGRAM, WHERE WE'RE IN
A DIFFERENT SITUATION.
WE'RE TRYING TO
NARROW THE BAND.
AND IT'LL BE SOMEWHERE,
VARY FROM UNIVERSITY
TO UNIVERSITY, BUT WHAT WE
NEED IS THE FLEXIBILITY,
PROGRAM BY PROGRAM
TO MAINTAIN QUALITY,
AND THEN WE NEED STRONG
PUBLIC INVESTMENT.
I HOPE ALL THREE PARTIES
IN THE NEXT PROVINCIAL
ELECTION, I HOPE, WILL
STAND FOR THE PROPOSITION
THEY WILL MOVE US TO
THE NATIONAL AVERAGE
OF PUBLIC SUPPORT.
HE'S WORKING HARD.

Steve says LET ME TAKE THIS QUESTION
TO THE NTH DEGREE,
WHICH IS TO SAY, IF
YOU'RE A YOUNG PERSON
IN ONTARIO RIGHT NOW,
YOU CAN GO TO SCHOOL,
PUBLIC SCHOOL, FOR FREE,
FROM KINDERGARTEN TO OAS.
WE ALL AGREE THAT ONE'S
ACADEMIC EXPERIENCE
OUGHT NOT TO END THERE.
AND WE ALL AGREE LIFELONG
LEARNING HAS NEVER BEEN
MORE IMPORTANT THAN
IT IS RIGHT NOW.
SO WHY ISN'T UNIVERSITY OR
COMMUNITY COLLEGE FREE?
COULD IT BE?

Ruth says IT IS IN SOME
INDUSTRIALIZED JURISDICTIONS.

Steve says IT'S NOT HERE.

Robert says BUT THERE'S NO
JURISDICTION IN THE WORLD
WITH HIGH QUALITY,
REALLY HIGH QUALITY
POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION
WHERE TUITION IS FREE.
THE REALITY IS, HAVING
THE STUDENTS PAY A SHARE,
THE GOVERNMENT
PAY A SHARE,
ALUMNI PAY A SHARE, A
SHARED APPROACH
IS THE ONLY APPROACH
THAT'S BEEN FOUND THAT I'M
AWARE OF WHERE YOU GET
ABSOLUTELY HIGH QUALITY.
AND THE JURISDICTIONS THAT
HAVE TRIED TO HAVE
FREE TUITION, LIKE UNITED
KINGDOM, LIKE FRANCE,
LIKE GERMANY, THEY ARE
PROGRESSIVELY FINDING IT
IS UNSUSTAINABLE, AND
THEY'RE INTRODUCING
TUITION FEES TO
ENHANCE QUALITY.
WHAT WE NEED IS TO MIMIC
WHAT IS DONE BEST
IN THE WORLD, WHICH IS A
SHARED ENTERPRISE
BECAUSE THERE IS BIG
BENEFIT TO THE STUDENT,
THERE IS BIG BENEFIT TO
THE COMMUNITY
AND TO THE PROVINCE.
BOTH SHOULD CONTRIBUTE.
BOTH SHOULD CONTRIBUTE
A FAIR SHARE.
AND THE TRICK IS TO
MAKE SURE ENOUGH IS
CONTRIBUTED BY EVERYBODY
TO REALLY GIVE
OUR STUDENTS EDUCATIONS
THAT ARE COMPETITIVE
WITH THE BEST.

Ruth says I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THE
BALANCING AND WITH
THE SHARING, I THINK IT'S A
QUESTION OF HOW MUCH.
AND THE OTHER POINT WE
HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT
IS THE RAMIFICATIONS OF
THIS FOR EVERYTHING ELSE.
I MEAN, IF A SURGEON IS
LEAVING POST GRADUATE
STUDIES WITH A HUGE
DEBT, AND MOVING INTO
A HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
WHERE COSTS ARE CAPPED,
HOW IS HE GOING TO
PAY BACK THE DEBT?
THERE'S GOING TO BE -
THIS IS THE BREACHING,
OR THE CHANGING OF A
DIRECTION THAT I
THINK IS GOING TO
HAVE RAMIFICATIONS
FOR HEALTHCARE AND
OTHER THINGS.

Steve says LAST 30 SECONDS TO
PRESIDENT PRICHARD HERE.
I WISH EVERY GRADUATE OF
EVERY ONTARIO UNIVERSITY
HAD THE KIND OF
OPPORTUNITY THAT LIES AHEAD
FOR THEM AS SURGEONS
GRADUATING IN ONTARIO HAVE.
IF WE CAN PROVIDE THAT
KIND OF FUTURE INCOME
PROSPECT FOR ALL
OUR STUDENTS,
WE'LL HAVE A
VERY, VERY, VERY
SUCCESSFUL PROVINCE.
THIS IS A KEY ISSUE.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
THAT WE GET A COMMITMENT
ACROSS THE BOARD TO
INVESTING ADEQUATELY
IN PUBLIC HIGHER EDUCATION
TO GIVE EVERY KID
IN ONTARIO THE
OPPORTUNITY THEY NEED.
AND I HOPE THAT'S
SOMETHING NDP, LIBERALS,
AND TORIES ALIKE CAN
COME TO SUPPORT OVER
THE WEEKS, MONTHS,
AND YEARS AHEAD.

Richard says AGREED.

Steve says OH, ON THAT NOTE
OF RARE CONSENSUS,
LET'S THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR COMING IN
AND SPREADING
THE GOSPEL.

Robert says STEVE, THANK YOU
FOR HAVING ME.

Steve says THAT'S ROB PRICHARD,
PRESIDENT OF
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO.
COMING UP, LIBERAL
POLLSTER TELLS IT LIKE IT IS,
AND THE LIBERALS
MAY NOT LIKE IT.

The caption says "Michael Marzolini. Liberal Pollster."

Michael is in his fifties and has brown hair that is slightly balding and is
clean-shaven. He wears a black blazer, white and gray-stripped shirt and color-
patterned tie.

Michael says WHAT HAS FIRST GOT TO HAVE
HAPPEN IS THAT PEOPLE
HAVE TO BE REALISTIC IN
THEIR INTERPRETATION
OF WHERE PUBLIC
OPINION IS IN ONTARIO.
THE LIBERAL ARE
MARGINALLY AHEAD.
THE VOTE IS, IN
FACT, PARKED.
IT'S A TENTATIVE
BENEFIT-OF-THE-DOUBT
TYPE OF VOTE.
THE PEOPLE ARE WAITING
TO BE CONVINCED.
YOU CAN'T EXPECT THAT VOTE
JUST WILL ELECT YOU
INTO A LARGE MAJORITY, OR
EVEN A SMALL MAJORITY.
AND THE LIBERALS HAVE A
HISTORY, A TRADITION,
OF HAVING TAKEN
POLLING RESULTS
AND PUBLIC SUPPORT
FOR GRANTED.
1990, 1995, THEY
CANNOT DO IT AGAIN.
WE HAVE TO FIGHT
FOR THAT SUPPORT.

Steve says MICHAEL MARZOLINI FROM
THE POLLING FIRM POLLARA
WHO TOLD LAST WEEKEND'S
CONVENTION OF ONTARIO
LIBERALS THEY'RE NOT SO
FAR AHEAD OF THE TORIES
AS WAS PREVIOUSLY
THOUGHT.
MARZOLINI'S POLLING
PUTS THE LIBERALS
AT 45 PERCENT, TORIES
BREATHING DOWN THEIR NECKS
AT 42 PERCENT, NDP A BAD
THIRD AT THE MOMENT.
WHICH RAISES THE QUESTION;
WHY DOES THE LIBERAL
POLLSTER GO BEFORE A
LIBERAL CONVENTION,
WHERE PRESUMABLY THE
IDEA IS TO GET PEOPLE
ENERGIZED AND REVVED
UP, AND TELL THEM, YES,
YOU'RE IN THE LEAD, BUT
IT'S AWFUL SOFT NUMBERS,
AND DOESN'T
MEAN ANYTHING?

Richard says BECAUSE IT DOESN'T
MEAN ANYTHING,
AND BECAUSE THEY ARE SOFT
NUMBERS, AND BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, POLLS
OF ANY TIME,
THIS LONG BEFORE AN
ELECTION CAMPAIGN
REALLY DON'T TELL
YOU THAT MUCH.
THEY MAY TELL YOU LEVELS
OF DISSATISFACTION
WITH THE GOVERNMENT.
THEY CERTAINLY DON'T TELL
YOU ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT
PEOPLE ARE LIKELY TO DO
IN AN ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
ELECTION CAMPAIGN WILL BE A
DIFFERENT FRAME FOR PEOPLE.
THEY ACTUALLY PRESUMABLY,
BY THE TIME WE GET THERE,
WILL HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND
OUT WHO DALTON MCGUINTY
AND HOWARD HAMPTON ARE,
LOOKED AT PERHAPS
WHAT THEY STAND FOR, AND
COMPARED THOSE WITH
THE RECORD OF MIKE HARRIS.

Steve says WAS THE IDEA TO SHOCK
YOU GUYS OUT OF WHATEVER
COMPLACENCY YOU MAY HAVE
FOR BEING IN FIRST PLACE
AT THE MOMENT?

Richard says AND MAKE SURE THERE IS
NO COMPLACENCY FOR THAT.
BECAUSE I MEAN EVERYBODY,
ALL THE COGNIZANTI,
NOT JUST THE LIBERALS,
BUT ALL THE COGNIZANTI
IN THE PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
SAID WE WERE GOING TO WIN
THE LAST ELECTION WHEN WE
WERE AHEAD FOR A YEAR OR TWO.
Steve says AND THE ONE
BEFORE THAT, ACTUALLY.

Steve says AND THE ONE BEFORE THAT,

Richard says AND THE ONE BEFORE THAT WHEN WE ACTUALLY
WERE IN GOVERNMENT.
I MEAN I ACTUALLY THINK I MEAN, IT'S FRANKLY
REFRESHING.
I MEAN, LIBERALS,
OF COURSE,
TELL IT LIKE IT IS,
BUT IN THIS CASE,
WE ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE
TELLING IT LIKE IT IS.

Steve says DO YOU BELIEVE
THESE NUMBERS?
THE NUMBERS OF ALL
THE DIFFERENT POLLING
COMPANIES OUT THERE
ARE NOT THE SAME.
WHO DO WE BELIEVE
RIGHT NOW?

Mac says I THINK WE MIGHT WANT TO
THINK ABOUT BELIEVING
JOHN DIEFENBAKER'S
OBSERVATION THAT DOGS
KNOW WHAT TO
DO WITH POLLS,
AS A STARTING POINT.
I THINK THERE
MIGHT BE MORE,
A FAIR BIT OF POLITICS,
AS WELL AS POLLING HERE.
AND Mr. MARZOLINI
AND POLLARA
ARE A VERY
WELL-RESPECTED FIRM.
AND I'M SURE THE NUMBERS ARE
METHODOLOGICALLY SOUND.

Steve says SO WHAT'S THE POLITICS
THAT'S GOING ON HERE?

Mac says I THINK THE POLITICS COMES
DOWN TO TWO OTHER NUMBERS
FOR THE LIBERAL PARTY.
THAT'S '90 AND '95.
AS RICHARD SUGGESTED, IN
BOTH THOSE CASES, IN '90,
AND '95 THE PARTY FORGOT
YOU HAVE ELECTIONS
TO CHANGE POLLS,
NOT CONFIRM THEM.

Steve says AS IN 1990, AND 1995,
AND THE ELECTION
RESULTS THEY HAD.

Mac says THAT'S RIGHT.
AND I THINK YOU HAVE
ELECTIONS TO CHANGE POLLS,
NOT CONFIRM POLLS.
I AGREE WITH RICHARD.
I DON'T PUT A LOT OF
STOCK IN A POLL TAKEN
THIS FAR IN ADVANCE
OF THE CAMPAIGN.
I THINK THOSE ARE
INTERESTING NUMBERS.
I THINK THEY ARE HIGH
FOR BOTH PARTIES.
I THINK THE ACTUAL SUPPORT
NUMBERS FOR BOTH PARTIES
ARE LOWER THAN THAT.

Steve says HAVING SAID THAT, YOU'VE
GOT TO BE ASTONISHED
AT THE FACT, EVEN IF
THEY ARE REMOTELY CLOSE,
YOU'VE GOT TO BE
ASTONISHED AT THE EGGS
THIS GOVERNMENT HAS BROKEN
OVER ITS THREE YEARS
IN POWER, AND IT'S
NOT AT 15 PERCENT IN
THE POLLS WHERE YOU MIGHT
EXPECT IT TO BE
IF YOU READ THE NEWSPAPER
HEADLINES EVERY DAY.
THEY'RE AROUND 40.

Ruth says THERE'S A LARGE RESIDUAL
SUPPORT FOR WHAT
THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING WITH
THE QUALIFICATIONS THAT,
I DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE
DOING ON HEALTHCARE,
OR SOMEBODY ELSE THINKS
THEY'RE GOING TOO FAST,
TOO FAR.
AND THE ONE POLL YOU HAVEN'T
MENTIONED IS THE COMPAS ONE
THAT CAME OUT LAST TUESDAY
THAT SAYS THAT HOWARD HAMPTON -

Richard says IS GOING TO SWEEP
TO A MAJORITY.

Ruth says IT DOES NOT SAY THAT, BUT
IT DOES SAY THAT HAVE
SHOWN SIGNIFICANT GROWTH
AND ARE NOW AT 17 PERCENT.
BUT I THINK THERE'S SUCH
VOLATILITY IN ELECTORATES
THESE DAYS, SO IT REALLY
IS SOMEWHAT MEANINGLESS.
SO I WOULD AGREE WITH
MAC AT THIS POINT.

Richard says THE POLLS ARE
INTERESTING.
EVEN THOUGH THOSE NUMBERS
OF WHO YOU'RE GOING
TO VOTE FOR AREN'T
RIGHT, THERE'S LOTS
OF INTERESTING
INFORMATION THEY GIVE US.
I AGREE WITH YOUR OBSERVATION,
THAT ONE OF THE STORIES
OUT THERE IS THE TORIES
ARE AS HIGH AS THEY
ARE OUT THERE GIVEN THE
HORRIBLE JOB I THINK
THEY'VE DONE OVER
THE LAST TWO YEARS.
AND EVEN IF YOU DON'T
THINK THEY'VE DONE
A HORRIBLE JOB, THERE'S
BEEN SOME PRETTY
TOUGH STUFF OUT THERE.
INTERESTING THING,
TOO, THEIR CORE,
WHICH IS ABOUT
32 PERCENT,
THEY'VE NEVER REALLY
DROPPED BELOW THAT
SINCE '95, IS HOLDING.
AND IN THE LAST
COUPLE OF MONTHS,
MARZOLINI'S NUMBERS, UP
UNTIL THE LAST COUPLE
OF MONTHS, SHOWED THEM
IN THAT 32 TO 35 RANGE.
THEY NOW SHOW THEM
IN THE 40 TO 42 RANGE.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY
A BIT OF A BUMP.
NOW, ONE WOULD THINK THAT
THE REASON FOR THAT BUMP
IS NOW FOR TWO MONTHS
WE'VE HAD GOOD NEWS
ANNOUNCEMENTS, AND WARM
AND FUZZY CUDDLY MIKE,
AND ALL THAT
SORT OF STUFF.
SO PEOPLE ARE SORT OF
EASING UP A LITTLE BIT.
BUT NO MATTER WHAT
THE PHENOMENON IS,
THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE IS
THE ONE WE KEEP OBSERVING
ON THE SHOW, THE EXTENT
PEOPLE SUPPORT
THIS GOVERNMENT, EVEN
THE 32 PERCENT CORE,
IT IS IN ITS BROADEST
DIRECTION IT TAKES.
THEY ARE STILL VERY,
VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
HIS TREATMENT IN
HEALTHCARE.
THEY ARE VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT HIS
TREATMENT OF EDUCATION.
THEY GIVE IT HIGH
POINTS ON THE DEFICIT,
WHEN ACTUALLY THIS
GOVERNMENT STILL HAS -
IT'LL BE THE LAST
GOVERNMENT PROBABLY
IN THE COUNTRY TO
REDUCE THE DEFICIT.

Ruth says THE POINT YOU
MADE IN THE BEGINNING -
SORRY, I GO FIRST,
THEN YOU GO.
REALLY, NOBODY KNOWS
EITHER OF THE TWO
OPPOSITION LEADERS.
SO THERE ISN'T AN
ALTERNATIVE OUT THERE.
Steve says THAT'S WHAT
ELECTIONS ARE FOR.

Richard says AND THAT'S WHAT
ELECTIONS ARE FOR.

Ruth says AND I MEAN THE LIBERALS
HAVE HAD A CONVENTION.
WE'LL BE HAVING A
CONVENTION THE WEEKEND
AFTER NEXT, AND THAT
WILL GIVE PRESUMABLY
SOME GREATER VISIBILITY.
AND THE CLOSER WE GET
TO AN ELECTION THE MORE
VISIBILITY THERE WILL
BE FOR BOTH OPPOSITION
LEADERS, AND THAT WILL
PERHAPS REDUCE THEM DOWN
TO THE 32 PERCENT, AND
SHAKE AWAY SOME OF THE EXTRA.

Mac says WHAT I FIND INTERESTING
THOUGH IS THE OBSERVATION
ABOUT THE CORE VOTE,
WHICH IS QUITE ACCURATE.
STATISTICALLY ACCURATE.
I DON'T THINK THE
GOVERNMENT'S GONE
BELOW THE CORE VOTE.
THE OTHER THING IS IF IN
TWO WEEKS OR TWO MONTHS
OF MIKE LIGHT, AS
YOU WOULD PUT IT,
MOVE THEM FROM 32 TO 42,
WHAT WOULD TWO YEARS DO?

Richard says I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER
TO THAT QUESTION,
BUT ANSWER WOULD BE IF
SOMEBODY BEATS YOU OVER
THE HEAD FOR A HAMMER
FOR THREE YEARS,
AND THEN STOPS, YOU MIGHT
GO, HEY, THAT FEELS GOOD. RIGHT.
THEN, IN THE DAYS
FOLLOWING THAT YOU MIGHT
THINK I GOT A LOT OF
BUMPS ON MY HEAD,
AND THEY REALLY,
REALLY, HURT A LOT,
AND YOU START THINKING
ABOUT THE BUMPS RATHER
THAN THE GUY WHO STOPPED
BEATING YOU OVER
THE HEAD WITH A HAMMER.
SO WE'LL SEE.

Ruth says I LIKE THE PHRASE
MIKE LIGHT THOUGH.

Richard says L-I-T-E, I THINK.

Steve says THAT'S OUR TIME
FOR THIS WEEK.
MANY THANKS TO EVERYBODY,
MAC PENNEY, RUTH GRIER,
RICHARD MAHONEY.
AND THANKS TO ALL
OF YOU FOR WATCHING.
I'M STEVE PAIKIN.
SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

Music plays and the end credits roll, as Steve and the rest continue the
conversation.

Queen's Park Bureau Chief, Susanna Kelley.

Producer, Erica Balch.

Director, Michael Smith.

A production of TVOntario. Copyright 2002, The Ontario Educational
Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #125 "Tuition Deregulated"