Transcript: Show #99 "Centre Shift/Ministers & Hospitals" | Jun 29, 1997

The opening sequence rolls.
In animation, the title "Fourth Reading" spins against a red background. Then, snippets from the current episode play.

(music plays)

Steve Paikin says THIS WEEK,
SHIFTING GEARS.

A clip shows a man in his forties sitting outside of a building.

He says WHAT WE'RE SEEING
NOW, QUITE APART
FROM HOW POLITICAL
PARTIES OPERATE,
BUT HOW PEOPLE VOTE,
THEY DON'T WANT
TO BE TAKEN FOR
GRANTED ANYMORE.

Steve says WESTERN DEMOCRACIES
MOVE TO THE CENTRE LEFT.
WHERE ARE WE
GOING IN ONTARIO?

(music plays)

Steve and 3 guests sit around a table in the shape of a number 4.

Steve is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a black suit, over a dark gray shirt.

He says GOOD AFTERNOON,
EVERYBODY.
GLAD YOU COULD
JOIN US FOR
THE SEASON FINALE
OF 4TH READING.
THIS WEEK, A LOOK AT
WHETHER THE CONSERVATIVE
REVOLUTION, STARTED BY
MARGARET THATCHER'S
CONSERVATIVES, AND
BUILT ON BY MIKE HARRIS'
TORIES IS OVER.
TAKE A LOOK AT THE
WORLD'S DEMOCRACIES,
SOME MIGHT ARGUE THE
SUN SHINING ON AN ERA
OF CONSERVATIVISM
IS STARTING TO SET,
THAT NEW, MORE CENTRIST
POLICIES ARE BEGINNING
TO CARRY THE DAY.
IS THAT, IN
FACT, HAPPENING
AROUND THE WORLD
OR HERE AT HOME?
AND IF IT IS,
WHAT DOES IT MEAN
TO THE PROVINCIAL TORIES,
WHO JUST THREE DAYS AGO
CELEBRATED THEIR SECOND
ANNIVERSARY IN POWER?

Several clips show different politicians addressing the public.

Steve says THATCHER, MULRONEY, REAGAN;
THESE ARE THE FACES
OF CONSERVATISM THAT
DOMINATED THE POLITICS
OF WESTERN DEMOCRACIES
IN THE '80s.
BUT IN 1984, 42 YEARS
OF TORY DOMINATION
WERE COMING TO AN
END IN ONTARIO;
14 YEARS OF THOSE UNDER
A RED TORY PREMIER.

A clip shows Bill Davis talking to the press. He is in his sixties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair, and is wearing a dark blue suit, white shirt, and spotted black tie.
A caption appears on screen. It reads "Bill Davis. Former P.C. Premier."

He says AND I INFORMED HIM
OF MY DECISION,
A VERY DIFFICULT
DECISION,
TO STEP DOWN AS
LEADER OF OUR PARTY.

Several clips show politicians and journalists surrounding them.

Steve says THE PARTY
BRIEFLY TOOK A TURN
TO THE RIGHT AFTER
FRANK MILLER WON
THE CONSERVATIVE
PARTY LEADERSHIP.
BUT ONTARIANS
IMMEDIATELY REJECTED
THAT POLITICAL
SHIFT AT THE POLLS.
IT WAS DAVID
PETERSON'S LIBERALS,
WITH THE SUPPORT
OF BOB RAE'S NDP,
THAT TOOK POWER AFTER
THAT ELECTION IN 1985.

A clip shows a man in his forties walking into a building. He is clean-shaven, has receding brown hair, and is wearing a plaid gray shirt, and glasses. A sign over the door reads "The Globe and Mail."
A caption reads "Robert Sheppard. Globe and Mail."

Steve says ONTARIO POLITICAL WATCHERS
SAY WE'VE ALWAYS MARCHED
TO THE BEAT OF OUR OWN
POLITICAL DRUMMER.

Robert says WHAT YOU HAD IN THE
MID '80s WITH A BOOMING
ECONOMY AND THE END
OF THE DAVIS' YEARS
WAS A SENSE OF LET'S OPEN
THE DOORS AND WINDOWS
AND SEE WHAT
WE CAN FIND.

A clip shows George Bush giving a speech.

Steve says BUT CONSERVATISM
STILL REIGNED
UNDER SUCH LEADERS AS U.S.
PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH.
HERE IN ONTARIO, WE WENT AS
FAR AS ELECTING A SOCIAL
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT UNDER
BOB RAE; FIRST TIME EVER.

Robert says IT WAS A GOVERNMENT THAT
VERY QUICKLY TURNED
TO THE PHYSICAL
CONSERVATIVE SIDE
AFTER ITS INITIAL YEAR
AND ITS INITIAL BUDGET,
AND IT REALIZED I THINK
THEN THAT IT PROBABLY
MADE A MISTAKE IN
GOING DOWN THAT ROAD
AND CHANGED COURSES
ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

A clip shows Bill Clinton giving a speech.

Steve says THE PENDULUM
BEGAN TO SWING BACK
IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS.
AMERICANS CHOSE THE
CENTRIST GOVERNMENT
OF BILL CLINTON; MEANWHILE,
ONTARIANS CHOSE TO GO
MUCH FURTHER TO THE
RIGHT, ELECTING
THE NEO-CONSERVATIVE
GOVERNMENT OF MIKE HARRIS.
THERE HAVE BEEN
BRIEF RESURGENCES
OF CONSERVATISM.
THE REPUBLICAN TAKEOVER OF
THE AMERICAN CONGRESS
IN 1994, FOR EXAMPLE.
BUT THE DOMINANT TREND IN
THE POLITICS OF WESTERN
DEMOCRACIES NOW SEEMS TO
BE A SHIFT TO THE CENTRE
OR CENTRE LEFT.
THAT TREND BECAME CLEARER
WHEN BILL CLINTON WON
REELECTION OVER
REPUBLICAN BOB DOLE
IN LAST YEAR'S
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

A clip shows people cheering, and Tony Blair walking and shaking hands.

Steve continues AND MORE RECENTLY, AFTER 18
YEARS OF TORY GOVERNMENTS,
THE BRITISH ELECTED A NEW
LABOUR PRIME MINISTER
IN TONY BLAIR.
THE FRENCH FOLLOWED SUIT
BY ELECTING SOCIALIST
PRIME MINISTER,
LIONEL JOSPIN.

A clip shows a woman sitting on a chair, in a television studio. She is in her sixties, has short wavy gray hair, and is wearing a flowery black blouse.
A caption reads "Janice Stein. University of Toronto. June 11, 1997."

Steve continues POLITICAL ANALYSTS SAY
THESE SHIFTS IN POLITICAL
TIDES ARE A REACTION TO
FISCAL AUSTERITY MEASURES.

Janice says WHEN YOU'VE GOT TO REIN
IN YOUR BUDGET AND CUT
SPENDING, AND DO THE KIND
OF HARD ECONOMIC SURGERY
THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT,
IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT
THERE'S A MASSIVE PROTEST
AGAINST IT IN EUROPE.

Steve continues AND HERE IN ONTARIO,
WE ELECTED 102 LIBERALS
OUT OF 103 RIDINGS IN THE
RECENT FEDERAL ELECTION,
EFFECTIVELY SHUTTING OUT
BOTH RIGHT WING PARTIES.
BUT AFTER TWO YEARS OF
PREMIER MIKE HARRIS' BRAND
OF RIGHT WING POLITICS IS
ONTARIO READY TO FOLLOW
THE LEAD OF OTHER
JURISDICTIONS
AND SWING BACK TO
THE CENTRE?
HAVE VOTERS HAD ENOUGH OF
SPENDING CUTS LIKE
FRENCH AND BRITISH VOTERS?

Robert says THE RUBBER HASN'T
QUITE HIT THE ROAD YET.
YOU'VE HAT SOME EARLY
EXAMPLES OF IT,
BUT BASICALLY, WHEN IT
COMES TO CLOSING HOSPITALS,
CHANGING THE SCHOOL SYSTEM,
DOING ALL THE THINGS THAT
ARE IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE
AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO
VOTE ON, HOW THAT IS
GOING TO BE IMPLEMENTED,
HOW THAT'S GOING
TO BE MANAGED,
THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T HAD
TO TAKE THAT IN ITS HANDS
AND DEAL WITH THE HARD
ISSUES AND THE LITTLE
TRADEOFFS THAT COME ABOUT.

Back in the studio, Steve sits at the table.

He says SO IS THE SUN, IN FACT,
SETTING ON CONSERVATISM?
LET'S GET INTO THAT
WITH TONY CLEMENT.
HE'S THE PC MEMBER
FOR BRAMPTON SOUTH,
AND THE PARLIAMENTARY
ASSISTANT TO
PREMIER MIKE
HARRIS.

Tony Clement is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short brown hair, and is wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and flowery tie.

Steve says TONY, WELCOME
BACK TO TVO.

Tony says IT'S ALWAYS
NICE TO BE HERE.

Steve says NICE TO HAVE
YOU HERE AGAIN.
YOU KNOW OUR GANG HERE,
THE FORMER ONTARIO LIBERAL
PRESIDENT - THAT'S NOT,
THERE HE IS, THERE HE IS,
WE PROMISED WE WERE GOING
TO INTRODUCE YOU FIRST,
AND DAMN IT WE'RE GOING
TO INTRODUCE YOU FIRST.
THERE'S RICHARD MAHONEY,
FROM THE OTTAWA LAW FIRM
FRASER AND BEATTY, FORMER
LIBERAL PRESIDENT.

Richard Mahoney is in his forties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair, and is wearing a striped black suit, pale blue shirt, and patterned golden tie.

Steve continues RUTH GRIER IS
HERE, AS WELL,
FORMER NDP CABINET
MINISTER FOR BOB RAE.

Ruth Grier is in her seventies, has short white hair, and is wearing a blue blazer.

Steve continues AND THROUGH THE MAGIC OF
SATELLITE TELEVISION
AND CYBERSPACE, AT
QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY,
HERE IS HUGH SEGAL, LONG
TIME CONSERVATIVE PARTY
ACTIVIST AND
ADVISOR IN KINGSTON.

Hugh Segal is in his late forties, clean-shaven, with short side parted brown hair, and is wearing a black suit, black shirt, and glasses.

Steve says HI, HUGH.

Hugh says HI.

Steve says OKAY, LET'S GET
INTO THIS TONY.
IS THE SUN SETTING
ON CONSERVATISM?

A caption on screen reads "Tony Clement. Parliamentary Assistant to Premier Harris."

Tony says I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE
OF THINGS HAPPENING
AT THE SAME TIME.
NUMBER ONE, IF YOU LOOK
AT SOME OF THE RESULTS
IN EUROPE AND SOUTH AMERICA
AND AUSTRAL ASIA,
YOU'VE GOT A CASE WHERE
STATUS QUO GOVERNMENTS
HAVE BEEN KICKED OUT, AND
REAL CHANGE GOVERNMENTS
HAVE BEEN ELECTED IN A
LOT OF THOSE PLACES.
AND THAT REAL CHANGE
GOVERNMENT MIGHT BE
OSTENSIBLY A SOCIALIST
PARTY OR LABOUR PARTY OR
WHATEVER, BUT IF YOU LOOK
AT ACTUALLY THE POLICIES
THEY ARE PURSUING
AS A GOVERNMENT,
THEY ARE A LOT MORE IN
LINE WITH GETTING
AN ECONOMY COMPETITIVE.
LOWERING BARRIERS
TO JOB CREATION.
CHANGING LABOUR MARKETS
SO THEY'RE MORE FLEXIBLE.
LOWERING TAXES.

Steve says OKAY, BUT WHEN YOU'RE
SITTING IN CAUCUS WITH
YOUR OTHER 81 MEMBERS, DO YOU
GUYS SIT AROUND AND SAY,
HOLY COW, DID YOU SEE
WHAT HAPPENED IN FRANCE?
DID YOU SEE WHAT
HAPPENED IN BRITAIN?
WE MAYBE HAVE TO TAKE THIS
INTO ACCOUNT AND DO WHAT?

Tony says EVERYBODY'S ALWAYS LOOKING
FOR WHAT THE LESSON IS.
IN FACT, IT'S FASCINATING
TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING
AMONGST THE SOCIAL
DEMOCRATIC PARTIES,
THE PUTATIVELY SOCIAL
PARTIES IN EUROPE
WHO ARE SAYING, GEE,
TONY BLAIR GOT ELECTED
BECAUSE HE WAS
CENTRE RIGHT.
MAYBE WE SHOULD BE
REASSESSING SOME
OF OUR POLICIES?
CERTAINLY THAT'S HAPPENING
IN COUNTRIES LIKE SWEDEN
AND OTHER NORDIC
COUNTRIES, AS WELL.
SO IT'S A QUESTION OF WHAT
LESSONS DO YOU WANT
TO TAKE FROM SOME
OF THE RESULTS.
YOU CAN MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT
TONY BLAIR IS THE LOGICAL
SUCCESSOR TO MARGARET
THATCHER IN A LOT OF WAYS.

Ruth asks YOU CAN?

[laughing]
Tony says I JUST DID.

Steve says YOU'RE SAYING
HE CAN'T DO THAT?

Tony says THAT LABOUR GOVERNMENT
IS A LOT DIFFERENT FROM
A LABOUR GOVERNMENT YOU
WOULD HAVE HAD UNDER
MICHAEL FOOT OR JIM
CALLAGHAN OR HAROLD WILSON.

Steve says THAT IS TRUE.

The caption changes to "Ruth Grier. Former NDP Cabinet Minister."

Ruth says THAT IS TRUE, BUT
THEN WE'RE NOT IN
THE ERA OF MICHAEL FOOT
OR JAMES CALLAGHAN.
AND I THINK ANY PARTY
LOOKS AT THE ECONOMIC AND
POLITICAL CONTEXT IN WHICH
THEY FIND THEMSELVES,
AND HAS TO DEFINE
HOW THEIR VALUES
ARE TRANSLATED INTO
ACTION IN THAT CONTEXT.
IF THEY DON'T, THEN THEY
ARE ULTIMATELY DEFEATED
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
RELEVANT TO THE PEOPLE
OF THE COUNTRY
THAT THEY SERVE.
I GUESS I DON'T BUY INTO
LOOKING AT HUGE GLOBAL TRENDS.
I THINK THERE'S A
PENDULUM, AND NO MATTER
WHAT YOU CALL THE
GOVERNMENT, AS TONY SAYS,
GOVERNMENTS TEND TO
GO TOWARDS THE MIDDLE
BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE
MOST PEOPLE ARE.
YOU HAVE THE PENDULUM
SOMETIMES SWINGING
TOO FAR TO THE RIGHT AS I
WOULD SAY IT HAS DONE
IN ONTARIO, AND
SOMETIMES FOR SOME PEOPLE
TOO FAR TO THE LEFT.
BUT ULTIMATELY,
IT EVENS OUT.

The caption changes to "Richard Mahoney. Ontario Liberal Advisor."

Richard says I THINK TWO PHENOMENA
THAT BOTH TONY AND RUTH
HAVE TALKED ABOUT
THAT ARE VALID.
THE FIRST IS, LOCALLY,
HERE IN ONTARIO ANYWAYS,
AND TO A LESSER
EXTENT IN CANADA,
WE HAVE HAD NOW A NUMBER
OF YEARS OF GOVERNMENTS
OF ALL STRIPES, LIBERAL,
CONSERVATIVE AND NEW DEMOCRAT,
WHO HAVE HAD TO, FOR
VARIOUS REASONS,
FORCE FISCAL RESTRAINT
ON THEMSELVES
AND THE PEOPLE
THEY SERVE.
AND AS A RESULT,
PARTICULARLY MOST NOTABLY
IN ONTARIO, YOU HAVE SOME
FATIGUE OF THE CHANGE,
AND THE PACE OF
CHANGE, AND THE HARM
THAT HAS BEEN CAUSED.
I THINK THAT'S
WHY, YOU KNOW,
IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS
YOU'VE SEEN THE HARRIS
GOVERNMENT DROP
IN THE POLLS,
AND WHY YOU'VE SEEN THE
RHETORIC A LITTLE BIT
CHANGE TO A MORE
HUMANE RHETORIC,
AND HARRIS HAS TALKED
ABOUT THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION BEING OVER,
WHEREAS EIGHT MONTHS AGO,
THE REVOLUTION IS HERE AND
WE'RE MOVING ON WITH THAT.

Steve says LET ME FOLLOW UP
WITH HUGH ON THAT.
THAT WAS AN INTERESTING
COMMENT THAT
THE PREMIER MADE THE OTHER
DAY, HUGH, SAYING THAT
THE COMMON SENSE
REVOLUTION IS OVER.
WHAT DO YOU SUPPOSE
HE MEANT BY THAT?

The caption changes to "Hugh Segal. Progressive Conservative Advisor."

Hugh says WELL, I THINK HE WAS
PROBABLY SUGGESTING THAT
THE FIRST PART, NAMELY
MOVING AHEAD ON A SERIES
OF FRONTS TO ACHIEVE
GENUINE CHANGE IN RESPONSE
TO THE SITUATION FOUND,
THAT PART IS NOW OVER.
AND HE DID CONFIRM HE WAS A
PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE.
BUT I DON'T ACCEPT THE
PREMISE THAT ELECTIONS
ARE ABOUT IDEOLOGY.
RONALD REAGAN DEFEATED A
VERY NICE, AND VERY KIND,
AND VERY INCOMPETENT
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT
BY THE NAME OF
JIMMY CARTER.
Mrs. THATCHER DEFEATED A
VERY NICE, AND VERY KIND,
AND VERY INCOMPETENT
LABOUR LEADER
BY THE NAME OF
JIM CALLAGHAN.
I THINK PART OF THE
SUCCESS OF THE ONTARIO
CONSERVATIVES IN THE LAST
PROVINCIAL ELECTION
WAS BECAUSE, QUITE FRANKLY,
THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY
HAD A PLATFORM, HAD A
DIRECTION, HAD A PLAN,
AND THERE APPEARED TO BE,
I DON'T WANT TO BE UNKIND,
NONE OF THE ABOVE WITH
RESPECT TO Mrs. MCLEOD.
SO THE NOTION THAT WAS
AN IDEOLOGICAL ELECTION
IN MY VIEW IS JUST NOT
BORNE OUT BY THE FACTS.
THEREFORE, THE NOTION
THAT NOW ONE WOULD BEGIN
TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE
PRAGMATIC AREAS FOR
CONSOLIDATION OF POLICY,
AS WELL AS IMPLEMENTATION
OF CHANGES ALREADY
MADE, I THINK,
IS THE APPROPRIATE
CHANGE TO MAKE.
AND I WOULD POINT OUT
THAT JUST THIS WEEK,
THE MOST RECENT
ANGUS REID POLL
HAD THE ONTARIO
CONSERVATIVES BACK ON TOP.
SO IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME
THAT THERE'S ANY KIND
OF WANING LEVEL OF SUPPORT
FOR GETTING IT RIGHT,
DOING IT PRAGMATICALLY
AND DOING IT FAIRLY.

Richard says THAT'S TRUE, I
THINK, WHAT HUGH SAYS,
THAT HARRIS WON THE LAST
ELECTION BECAUSE HE HAD
A CLEAR PLATFORM AND A
CLEAR SENSE OF IDEAS,
AND ONTARIANS FRANKLY,
DIDN'T HAVE A CLEAR
SENSE OF IDEAS OF
WHAT WE STOOD FOR,
AND THERE WAS A LEVEL
OF DISSATISFACTION
WITH THE INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT
WHICH WAS THE NEW DEMOCRATS.
HOWEVER, WHERE I DISAGREE
WITH HUGH IS I THINK
IN THE MEANTIME, CERTAINLY
MANY OF THE HARRIS CONSERVATIVES
INTERPRETED THEIR
VICTORY IN 1995 AS BEING
A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT.
AND WHERE THEY WERE
RIGHT, I THINK,
IS THAT VOTERS OF ALL
STRIPES IN ONTARIO,
PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY
THEMSELVES AS NEW DEMOCRATS
ARE MORE LIKELY
TO VOTE NEW DEMOCRAT,
LIBERAL, ARE MORE LIKELY
TO VOTE LIBERAL
OR CONSERVATIVE, SAY THAT
THE ERA OF BIG GOVERNMENT
IS OVER, THAT THE ERA
OF A PROGRAM FOR EVERY
PROBLEM IS OVER, AND ALL
PARTIES REFLECT THAT.
TONY BLAIR'S ELECTION,
AND HIS CONVERSION
OF THE LABOUR PARTY, AS TONY
POINTS OUT, REFLECTS THAT.
WHERE I THINK IT IS
INTERESTING NOW IN TERMS
OF WATCHING THE TORIES IS,
IS THERE AN IDEOLOGICAL
BATTLE THAT GOES ON
WITHIN THAT HOUSE,
WITHIN THAT CAUCUS?

Steve says THAT'S A KEY
QUESTION, AS IS,
IF THERE IS A FATIGUE AMONG
THE POPULATION RIGHT NOW
FOR THE KIND OF AGENDA YOU
PRESENTED IN THE FIRST
COUPLE OF YEARS, WHAT
DOES THAT AUGER FOR THE
NEXT TWO YEARS LEADING UP
TO THE NEXT ELECTION?
AND THE POLL SUGGESTS
THERE IS A FATIGUE.

Tony says I DON'T MEAN NO BE
ARGUMENTATIVE –

Steve says BE ARGUMENTATIVE.

Hugh says BETTER YOU THAN ME.

Tony says LET ME FIRST AGREE
WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH HUGH
THAT PUNDITS AND POLLSTERS
AND COLUMNISTS LIKE TO TALK
ABOUT RIGHT AND LEFT,
BUT THE PEOPLE
DON'T TALK ABOUT
RIGHT LEFT.
THEY SAY, DO I ACCEPT THAT
THE GOVERNMENT IS ON
THE RIGHT TRACK, I.E. THE
STATUS QUO IS WORKING FOR ME
AND MY VALUES, OR DO I
WANT REAL CHANGE
FROM THAT STATUS QUO?
THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF
CHOICES THAT PEOPLE MAKE
IN THEIR OWN LIVES
WHEN THEY ARE CHOOSING
A NEW GOVERNMENT.

Steve says YES OR NO,
THOUGH, YES OR NO?
MIKE HARRIS IN THE FIRST
COUPLE OF YEARS DIDN'T
SPEND A LOT OF TIME
TELLING EVERYBODY
HE WAS A PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVE.

Richard says IN FACT HE NEVER
MENTIONED THE WORD.

Steve says THAT'S RIGHT, AND
NOW, HE SAYS IT.
I MEAN, THAT'S
A SIGNAL CHANGE.

Hugh says LET'S REMEMBER THAT A
LOT OF THE SOFT LIBERALS
WHO VOTED FOR MIKE HARRIS –

Richard says YEAH, THERE'S
A LOT OF LIBERALS
WHO VOTED FOR
MIKE HARRIS.

Hugh continues THEY THOUGHT THEY
WERE VOTING FOR
THE CENTRIST OPTION WHEN
COMPARED TO BOB RAE.
AND THEY WERE RIGHT.

Ruth says YES, AND DON'T FORGET
ALSO IN THAT CAMPAIGN
MIKE HARRIS PRESSED A LOT
OF VERY POPULIST BUTTONS,
WHETHER THEY
WERE, YOU KNOW,
EVERYBODY ON WELFARE IS
RIPPING OFF THE SYSTEM,
OR WHETHER THEY WERE
ALMOST RACIST BUTTONS
AS THE REFORM PARTY DOES.
AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE
NOW BEGINNING TO REALIZE,
AND WILL REALIZE MORE IN
THE NEXT TWO YEARS THAT
WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY
WERE GETTING AS A RESULT
OF THE CHANGE IS NOT
WHAT THEY'RE GETTING.
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE
THAT MUCH BETTER OFF,
NOT THE AVERAGE PERSON.
AND THEY'RE SEEING
THE DISINTEGRATION
OF THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET
THAT HAS BEEN A FEATURE
OF CONSERVATIVE, LIBERAL
AND NDP GOVERNMENTS
IN ONTARIO OVER THE
PAST 30 YEARS.

Tony says YOU ASKED A QUESTION
ABOUT MY CAUCUS,
OR OUR CAUCUS, I
THINK WE KNOW THAT
THE PLAN IS THIS:
THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS
WE'VE HAD TO SPEND A LOT
OF TIME WHAT WE CALL
UNDOING THE DAMAGE THROUGH
TAX CUTS, THROUGH GETTING
RID OF THE JOB QUOTAS,
THROUGH GETTING RID OF THE
NDP LABOUR LEGISLATION.
ALL THAT WAS THE AGENDA
OF UNDOING THE DAMAGE
OF WHAT WE CALL THE
TEN LOST YEARS.
THE NEXT TWO YEARS, A LOT OF IT
IS KICKING INTO HIGH GEAR,
EXPAND THE ECONOMY,
AND EXPAND THE GROWTH
AND OPPORTUNITY AND THE
JOBS PART OF THE ECONOMY.
SO THAT MIGHT SOUND
SOFTER TO YOU,
BUT THAT WAS ALWAYS PART
OF A FOUR- OR FIVE-YEAR PLAN.

Steve says WELL, I WOULD JUST LOOK AT
THE LAST FEDERAL ELECTION.
YOU GUYS OBVIOUSLY ON
THE TAX-CUT ISSUE
DID VERY WELL WITH IT,
PEOPLE BELIEVED IT,
YOU WON AN
ELECTION, YOU KNOW,
SIGNIFICANTLY IN
PART OF THAT TAX CUT.
AND JEAN CHAREST WENT
TO THE POLLS IN ONTARIO
WITH THE SAME THING
AND IT WENT NOWHERE.

Tony says AGAIN, I'M NOT TRYING
TO DISPUTATIOUS,
BUT PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE
US WHEN WE SAID WE WERE
GOING TO CUT TAXES BECAUSE
THEY NEVER BELIEVE
POLITICIANS WHEN THEY SAY
THEY'RE GOING TO CUT TAXES.
THEY BELIEVED THAT WE
BELIEVED IN CUTTING TAXES.
AND THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE
ANYBODY ELSE IN THE ONTARIO
PANTHEON BELIEVED
IN CUTTING TAXES.

Ruth says BUT THEY THOUGHT THE
RESULT OF CUTTING TAXES
WOULD BE PROTECTION
OF HEALTHCARE,
PROTECTION OF EDUCATION,
AT THE SAME TIME
AS TAXES WERE CUT AND
THE CREATION OF JOBS.
AND THAT'S WHAT'S
NOT HAPPENED.

Tony says A THOUSAND JOBS
A DAY RIGHT NOW.

Richard says BUT NOW PEOPLE ACTUALLY
IN ONTARIO NOWADAYS DON'T
BELIEVE YOU CAN DO ALL
THREE AT ONCE ANYMORE.
I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE
CHANGE AND WHY CHAREST'S
PLATFORM DIDN'T
CATCH ON HERE.
I THINK IF THERE'S A
REASON BEHIND WHY -
LOOK, I ACCEPT YOUR ANALYSIS
ABOUT HOW YOU THOUGHT
THE TOUGH DECISIONS WOULD
BE MADE IN THE TWO YEARS,
AND THEN TWO YEARS TO
RAMP UP TO AN ELECTION,
PREMIER'S SPOKEN
ABOUT THAT.
WHERE YOU COULD HAVE MORE
GOOD NEWS ANNOUNCEMENTS.
BUT FIRST OF ALL, YOU'VE
GOT MORE CUTS TO GO.
OBVIOUSLY TO
FUND THE TAX CUT.
THAT TAX CUT IS ONLY
HALF IN PLACE NOW,
YOU'VE GOT 50
PERCENT MORE TO DO.

Tony says TAX CUT PAYS FOR
ITSELF, DON'T FORGET.

Richard says WELL, THAT'S NOT TRUE, AND
THERE'S NOT AN ECONOMIST
IN THE COUNTRY THAT
WILL TELL YOU THAT.
A BOOMING ECONOMY
WILL HELP.

Steve says HANG ON, LET ME
GET HUGH SEGAL IN HERE.
HUGH WANTS IN.
GO AHEAD.

Hugh says I'M JUST GOING TO SAY
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM
ANY POLITICIAN HAS AS HE
OR SHE ENTERS THE LAST PART
OF THEIR FIRST TERM IS
WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE
BELIEVE THEY HAVE TRIED
THEIR VERY BEST
TO KEEP THEIR PROMISES.
IF THEY COME TO THE
FOLLOWING CONCLUSION,
AN EXPRESSION YOU
SOMETIMES HEAR
IN WESTERN CANADA - BIG
HAT, NO CATTLE - I.E.,
A LOT OF COMMITMENTS WERE
MADE, BUT NO DELIVERY,
NO SUBSTANCE, THEN A
POLITICIAN IS DEAD.
AND I THINK THE FACT
WITH ALL THE CHANGE
THAT HAS GONE ON, AND ALL
THE DISLOCATION THAT
THAT IMPLIES IN ORDER TO
MODERNIZE OUR SYSTEMS,
THE FACT THE ONTARIO
GOVERNMENT IS STILL
HOLDING AT ABOUT THE
38 PERCENT LEVEL,
AHEAD OF THE OTHER
PARTIES, IS, IN MY VIEW,
A TRIBUTE TO THE FACT
ONTARIANS BELIEVE
THE HARRIS ADMINISTRATION,
EVEN THOSE WHO DISAGREE
WITH IT, IS TRYING
TO KEEP ITS PROMISES.
THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT
ELEMENT OF CREDIBILITY
IN THIS PROCESS.

Steve says AGAIN, AS WE TRY TO
READ TEA LEAVES HERE,
AND LET'S JUST ACKNOWLEDGE
THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST
THAT THOSE OF US WHO WORK
AT TV ONTARIO HAVE ON THIS
ISSUE, PEOPLE ARE READING
TEA LEAVES TO TRY TO FIGURE
OUT WHETHER OR NOT YOUR
ANNOUNCEMENT THE OTHER DAY,
NOT TO SELL TVO OUTRIGHT,
WHICH SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT
WAS COMING DOWN, BUT RATHER
TO SEND IT TO A PRIVATIZATION
SECRETARIAT AND STUDY
WHETHER IT MADE SENSE
TO PRIVATIZE TVO, SOME PEOPLE
SEE THAT AS A BACKING OFF
OF THE IDEOLOGICAL CHARGE
THAT YOU CAME INTO OFFICE WITH,
FURTHER EVIDENCE
THAT THE TORIES ARE MOVING
CLOSER TO THE CENTRE,
FURTHER EVIDENCE
OF ANOTHER
INTERNATIONAL TREND.

Tony says CAN I REMIND YOU WHAT THE
TITLE OF OUR PUBLIC POLICY
PLATFORM, COMMON
SENSE REVOLUTION.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT
SERVICES ARE DELIVERED
TO THE TAXPAYERS BETTER
FOR LESS MONEY.
THAT'S THE JOB.
EVERY ITEM IN THE
ONTARIO GOVERNMENT
IS GOING THROUGH
A REVIEW.
WE PROMISED THAT
IN THE ELECTION.
WHAT WE'RE SAYING ABOUT
TVO IS NOTHING DIFFERENT
FROM WHAT WE SAID IN THE
COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION,
IF THERE IS A BETTER WAY
TO DELIVER THE SAME
OR BETTER SERVICES AT TVO,
AS WITH A MYRIAD OF OTHER
SERVICES, BETTER FOR LESS
MONEY TO THE TAXPAYER,
PUBLIC/PRIVATE
PARTNERSHIPS,
FULLY PRIVATE, OR
STILL FULLY PUBLIC,
BUT WITH A DIFFERENT
STRUCTURE, HEY,
WE'RE GOING TO
LOOK AT THAT,
BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE
ANY DECISIONS BASED ON
IDEOLOGY OR BASED ON SOME
PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS?

Ruth says TONY, WHAT COULD
BE MORE IDEOLOGICAL THAN
SELLING OFF WHAT IS A
PUBLIC SERVICE TELEVISION
OPERATION, AS
OPPOSED TO SOMETHING
THAT IS A COMMERCIAL
STATION?
I MEAN YOU ARE SAYING
THAT THE COMMERCIAL,
THE PRIVATE SECTOR CAN
DELIVER THE SAME KIND
OF SERVICE TVO DELIVERS
IN TERMS OF EDUCATION,
PUBLIC BROADCASTING?

Tony says I DIDN'T SAY THAT.
I POSED THE QUESTION,
FIRST OF ALL.

Richard says IN THE CAMPAIGN,
PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT
PRIVATIZING TVO, AND
STEVE'S QUESTION WAS,
ARE WE NOW TAKING A STEP
BACK AND APPLYING
AN ANALYSIS WHICH
TONY JUST IMPLIED,
WHICH IS WHAT
MAKES SENSE?
I WOULD SUBMIT IF YOUR
PRIVATIZING COMMISSION
DOES ANALYZE IT, THEY WOULD
ANALYZE THAT MAINTAINING
TVO IN PUBLIC HANDS
DOES MAKE SENSE.
WE HAVE A BROADCASTER THAT
HAS PROVIDED A SERVICE
TO ONTARIANS RIGHT
ACROSS THE PROVINCE,
THAT HAS CUT ITS COSTS
IN THE LAST FEW YEARS,
AND THAT ONTARIANS
WILL TELL YOU,
AND HAVE TOLD YOU IN
THE POLLS YOU'VE DONE,
THEY DON'T WANT
PRIVATIZED.
SO IF YOU ARE GOING TO
APPLY THAT ANALYSIS, TONY,
YOU'LL NO DOUBT COME
TO THE CONCLUSION IT
SHOULDN'T BE PRIVATIZED,
AND MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER
OPTIONS IN TERMS OF
BRINGING IN PRIVATE
SECTOR PARTNERS OR
UNIVERSITY PARTNERS.

Ruth says HUGH'S BURSTING.

Steve says I'VE NEVER SEEN
HUGH THIS POLITE.
GO AHEAD, HUGH.

Hugh says ONLY TO SAY IF THE
PRESIDENT OF TVO INDICATED
TODAY, AS HE DID, THAT
THERE IS GOING TO BE
A PROPOSAL THAT HE HIMSELF
WILL BE MAKING INVOLVING
A CONSORTIUM OF NON-PROFITS
WHO MIGHT OPERATE
THE NETWORK IN A FASHION
THAT WOULD BE CONDUCIVE
BOTH TO MAXIMIZED EFFICIENCY
IN THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE
QUALITY OF PROGRAMMING,
THAT INDICATES RIGHT THERE
AND THEN THAT THERE IS
MERIT IN RE-EXAMINING
HOW THINGS ARE DONE.
THE BBC IN ITS WISDOM
DECIDED TO SELL OFF
ALL ITS TRANSMISSION
FACILITIES AND TO LEASE
THEM BACK ON AN
AS-NEEDS BASIS.
THERE'S A SERIES OF WAYS
OF GOING ABOUT THIS.
I'M A BIG SUPPORTER OF
PUBLIC BROADCASTING,
BOTH OF THE CBC AND TVO,
BUT I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT
WE CAN BE INURED FROM THE
RESPONSIBILITY OF FINDING
THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY OF
DELIVERING THE HIGHEST
QUALITY SERVICE, AND NOT
MAKING IT THE SAME
AS OUR FRIENDS IN
COMMERCIAL BROADCASTING.

Richard says I AGREE AS
LONG AS IT REMAINS
A PUBLIC BROADCASTER.

Steve says BUT THE ORIGINAL
QUESTION IS,
IS THIS A SIGN THAT THE
GOVERNMENT IS "GOING SOFT"?
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE
THOSE ON THE CONSERVATIVE END
OF THE SPECTRUM WHO
THINK IT IS A SIGN OF THAT.

Tony says BOY, THEM'S
FIGHTING WORDS.
GOING SOFT.
WE'VE BEEN ACCUSED
OF A LOT OF THINGS,
BUT GOING SOFT HASN'T
BEEN ONE OF THEM.

Richard says EVEN I WOULDN'T
ACCUSE YOU OF THAT, TONY.

Tony says THANK YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Hugh says AS AN OLD
SOFTY MYSELF,
SOFT ISN'T ALWAYS BAD.

Tony says SOFT WORKS, DIDN'T
YOU SAY THAT ONCE?

Steve says BUT DURING
THE NEWS CONFERENCE
IN THE QUEEN'S PARK
PRESS GALLERY,
AND IT IS THEIR JOB TO
PROVOKE THE MINISTERS
INTO CERTAIN KINDS OF
ANSWERS, WE'RE ALL ACCUSING
THE MINISTERS INVOLVED ON
HAVING GONE SOFT ON THE THING.

Ruth says AS A SUPPORTER OF
PUBLIC BROADCASTING,
PLEASE GOD THEY HAVE.

Tony says AGAIN, WE'RE NOT
LOOKING AT THIS
WITH IDEOLOGICAL
BLINDERS.
WE'RE SAYING HOW CAN WE
DELIVER SERVICES IN OUR
ONTARIO IN A WAY THAT MAKES
SENSE FOR THE TAXPAYERS,
AND THE FINAL PRODUCT IS
SOMETHING THAT CONSUMERS WANT?
AND LET'S AT
LEAST DISCUSS IT.
AND THIS PRIVATIZATION
FRAMEWORK IS A WAY
TO DISCUSS IT.
THAT'S ALL IT IS.

Steve says 30 SECONDS LEFT.
GO AHEAD, RICK.

Richard says AND I GUESS WHAT'S MORE
INTERESTING IS IF TVO
IS AN INDICATION THAT MAYBE
IT'S LESS IDEOLOGICAL,
I GUESS WHAT
I'M NOT CONVINCED OF
ARE OTHER INDICATIONS IN
THE GOVERNMENT THAT
THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO
BE LESS IDEOLOGICAL.

Ruth says AND IF IT'S
LESS IDEOLOGICAL,
WHY DISCUSS IT IN A
PRIVATIZATION FRAMEWORK?
WHY NOT JUST DISCUSS MAKING
IT MORE EFFICIENT AS TVO
HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO
ITSELF OVER THE LAST
THREE OR FOUR YEARS?

Steve says AND IF I CAN FASHION A
GENERAL QUESTION COMING
OUT OF THAT, ARE YOU
GOING TO BE KINDER,
GENTLER TORIES OVER
THE NEXT TWO YEARS?
IS THAT WHAT WE
SHOULD LOOK FOR?

Richard says OR JUST
SOUND LIKE THEM.

Tony says NO, GOVERNING INVOLVES
MAKING, AS WE SAID,
WE HAD TO MAKE SOME
TOUGH DECISIONS
IN THE FRONT END TO GET
US ON THE RIGHT TRACK.
ONCE YOU'RE ON
THE RIGHT TRACK,
ONCE JOBS AND OPPORTUNITY
ARE BEING CREATED
IN ONTARIO AGAIN, THEN OUR
JOB IS TO MANAGE THE PROVINCE
OF ONTARIO IN A WAY THAT'S
IN THE BEST INTEREST
OF THE TAXPAYERS AND THE
CITIZENS OF ONTARIO.
SO YOU CAN INTERPRET
THAT HOW YOU WANT.
BUT THIS IS A
FIVE-YEAR PROGRAM.
IT'S NOT A TWO-YEAR PROGRAM
OR A THREE-YEAR PROGRAM.

Steve says OKAY, TONY CLEMENT,
BRAMPTON SOUTH MPP
FOR THE TORIES.
THANKS FOR BEING
HERE TODAY.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
LET US CONTINUE
ON WITH A SUBJECT
THAT WILL BE OF INTEREST
TO YOU AS WELL, TONY,
POLITICIANS AND ETHICS, ALWAYS
A COMBUSTIBLE COMBINATION.
AND WE SAW AN EXAMPLE
OF IT THIS PAST WEEK
AT QUEEN'S PARK.
THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
CHASTISED MUNICIPAL
AFFAIRS MINISTER AL LEACH
FOR WHAT HE CALLED,
"A FLAGRANT BREACH OF
PARLIAMENTARY CONVENTION."
LEACH WROTE TO THE HEALTH
SERVICES RESTRUCTURING
COMMISSION ON BEHALF
OF HIS CONSTITUENTS.
THE OPPOSITION WANTED
THE MINISTER FIRED.
THE PREMIER HAS
SAID, FORGET IT.

A clip shows Dalton McGuinty talking in the legislature. He is in his forties, clean-shaven, has short side-parted brown hair, and is wearing a black suit, striped white shirt, and spotted black tie.
A caption reads "Dalton McGuinty. Liberal Leader."

He says THIS GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN
TODAY HOISTED ON ITS OWN PETARD.
IF IT IS, INDEED,
AN ARM'S LENGTH,
QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY, AND
THE INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
HAS, IN FACT, MADE THE
FINDING THAT THIS MINISTER
IS IN BREACH OF THE LAW,
THAT HE HAS CONTRAVENED
THE ACT THAT GOVERNS
OUR BEHAVIOUR IN THIS
LEGISLATURE, THEN YOU
HAVE NO CHOICE, PREMIER,
BUT TO STAND
UP, ONCE AGAIN.
TELL US THAT YOU ARE GOING
TO ASK FOR THE RESIGNATION
OF MINISTER AL LEACH.

A clip shows Mike Harris in the legislature. He is in his late fifties, clean-shaven, with short gray hair, and is wearing a gray suit, white shirt, and spotted black tie.

He says I THEREFORE ASK THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL TO MEET
WITH THE OFFICE OF THE
INTEGRITY COMMISSION
TO CLARIFY THESE ISSUES
FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL
MINISTERS, AND ALL MEMBERS
SO ALL OF US KNOW HOW,
AND UNDER WHAT
CIRCUMSTANCES WE CAN
REPRESENT THE INTERESTS
OF THE CONSTITUENTS
WHO ELECTED US.

A clip shows Al Leach in the legislature. He is in his seventies, clean-shaven, with short white hair, and is wearing a black suit, white shirt, and dark gray tie.
A caption reads "Honorable Al Leach. Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing."

He says I ACTED IN GOOD FAITH.
THERE WAS NO INTENT
ON MY PART TO TRY
AND INFLUENCE
ANYONE, Mr. SPEAKER.

Back in the studio, Steve sits at the table with Ruth, Richard, and a TV showing Hugh.

He says OF COURSE, THIS IS ONE
OF THESE ISSUES THAT
HAS EVERYONE IN THE
LEGISLATURE IN A TIZZY,
BUT LET'S SEE IF WE CAN
JUST SORT OF FIGURE OUT
FACT FROM FICTION
RIGHT HERE.
IS THIS OFFENCE SIGNIFICANT
ENOUGH, GENUINELY,
YOU'VE BEEN A CABINET
MINISTER, RUTH,
IS THIS SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH
FOR A MINISTER TO RESIGN?

Ruth says WELL, LET ME SAY THAT I
FIND SOME OF THESE RULES,
WHICH I KNOW WE LIVE BY,
TOO, REALLY DIFFICULT.
I MEAN, AS AN MPP,
YOU ARE SOMETIMES,
ONCE YOU'RE IN CABINET,
PLACED IN A POSITION
OF NOT BEING ABLE TO
ADVOCATE ON THE PART
OF YOUR CONSTITUENTS.
WHICH YOUR
CONSTITUENTS SAY,
WHAT'S THE GOOD IN HAVING
YOU THERE IF YOU CAN'T
CARRY OUR CASE FORWARD.
SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT
TO KNOW WHERE THAT LINE
SHOULD BE DRAWN.
BUT I WOULD ARGUE
THAT HAVING DRAWN IT,
THEN IT OUGHT NOT
TO BE CROSSED.
AND OBVIOUSLY, Mr. LEACH,
AS OTHERS DID, CROSSED IT.
AND I GUESS WHAT STICKS
IN MY CRAW IS THE FACT
THE STANDARD IS
SO DIFFERENT,
I MEAN, THE ACCUSATIONS
AGAINST OUR CABINET
MINISTERS AND THE
FACT THEY RESIGNED;
WHEREAS HERE WE HAVE THE
INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
HIMSELF GRATUITOUSLY
SAYING IT'S NOT
AN OFFENCE WORTH
A RESIGNATION.
AND I FIND THAT A
REAL DOUBLE STANDARD.

Steve says SO THE QUESTION
THEN FOR HUGH IS,
IS THE PREMIER SMART
TO KEEP THESE GUYS
IN CABINET, AS HE HAS SO
FAR BECAUSE THEN NOBODY
CAN COME UP TO HIM
LATER AND SAY,
LOOK AT ALL THE CABINET
MINISTERS YOU LOST?
WHAT DO YOU
THINK OF THAT?

Hugh says MORE IMPORTANT
THAN THAT, STEVE,
I THINK IT'S A
TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE
MISTAKE TO HAVE A
RULING BY THE INTEGRITY
COMMISSIONER, WHICH
PROVIDES A NEW DEFINITION FOR
WHAT CONSTITUTES AN ARM'S
LENGTH, QUASI-JUDICIAL BODY.
THERE'S A BIG
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
BEING ARM'S LENGTH AND
BEING QUASI-JUDICIAL.
QUASI-JUDICIAL IMPLIES
PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL
JUSTICE, PEOPLE
REPRESENTED BY COUNCIL,
DUE PROCESS, NONE OF WHICH
IS NECESSARILY THE WAY
THESE ARM'S LENGTH
ORGANIZATIONS THAT
ARE MAKING POLICY DECISIONS
ARE BEING ASKED TO OPERATE.
I THINK THE NOTION BECAUSE
THERE HAS BEEN A NEW
DEFINITION GIVEN BY THE
INTEGRITY COMMISSIONER
IN GOOD FAITH, ONE SHOULD
THEN ON A RETROACTIVE BASIS,
TELL A WHOLE BUNCH
OF PEOPLE WHO WROTE
HONOURABLE LETTERS, ON THE
RECORD; THEY WERE HIDING
NOTHING ON BEHALF OF
HOSPITALS IN THEIR
OWN CONSTITUENCIES, AS
EVERY MPP WAS FREE TO DO,
THAT THEY MADE A TERRIBLE
MISTAKE AND THEY HAVE
TO RESIGN, I THINK,
WOULD BE INSANE.

Steve asks RICK, WHAT
DO YOU THINK?

Richard says I GUESS, TO HUGH'S POINT,
OBVIOUSLY THIS POINTS
TO THE BASIC FLAW IN
THE IDEA OF THINGS
LIKE THE HEALTHCARE
RESTRUCTURING COMMISSION.
WE'VE TALKED ON THIS
PROGRAM BEFORE,
ON THE ONE HAND THEY WANT
TO TAKE THE POLITICS OUT OF IT,
BUT WHAT THEY REALLY
WANT TO DO IS TAKE
THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR
MAKING, WHAT ARE ADMITTEDLY
INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT
DECISIONS AWAY FROM
MINISTERS AND PUT
THEM IN THE HANDS
OF THIS COMMISSION.
HUGH'S RIGHT.
EVANS HAS DECIDED THAT'S
A QUASI-JUDICIAL FUNCTION
RATHER THAN AN "ARM'S
LENGTH FUNCTION."
I THINK THE REALITY
IS THESE COMMISSIONS
ARE NEITHER
FISH NOR FOWL,
SO EVIDENCE HAS
DRAWN THE LINE.
HE HAS AN ACT TO
DEAL WITH.
HE HAS INTERPRETED
THE ACT, IN MY VIEW,
PROBABLY CORRECTLY.
AND DALTON MCGUINTY
IS RIGHT.
THE GOVERNMENT IS HOISTED
ON ITS OWN PETARD.
THAT DOESN'T IN ANY WAY
TAKE AWAY FROM RUTH'S POINT,
WHICH IS SHOULD THE
ACT BE THERE IN THAT WAY
IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND
IS IT WRONG FOR AN MPP
TO WRITE ON BEHALF OF
HIS OWN CONSTITUENTS?
AND I MUST SAY CLEARLY
THE LAW HAS GONE TOO FAR
ON THIS, AND MPPs SHOULD
NOT BE PREVENTED FROM
DOING THINGS LIKE THAT.
IT'S JUST THAT IN THIS
CASE, THE LAW IS THE LAW.

Steve says DALTON MCGUINTY WAS
UP IN THE HOUSE, THOUGH,
SAYING YOU GUYS, THERE'S
THREE OF THEM NOW,
THERE'S LEACH THE
COMMISSIONER RULED ON.

Ruth says DIANE CUNNINGHAM.

Steve continues AND DIANE CUNNINGHAM AND
BOB RUNCIMAN WHOM
THE PREMIER NAMED AS HAVING
DONE THE SAME THING.
MCGUINTY GOT UP AND
SAID YOU THREE
HAVE BROKEN THE LAW.
TECHNICALLY, I
GUESS, THEY HAVE.

Ruth says THEY HAVE, AND
THEREFORE THEY SHOULD
NOT BE IN CABINET.
BUT IT ALSO POINTS TO
THE WHOLE FOLLY OF,
AS RICHARD HAS SAID,
SETTING UP THIS OTHER BODY
TO MAKE THE DECISIONS
BECAUSE THE MINISTER
OF HEALTH WROTE
WITH CONCERNS ABOUT
THE SAINT LOUIS DE
MONTFORT DECISION.
SO IS THIS ARM'S LENGTH
MAKING THE DECISIONS
OR IS IT NOT?
AND GIVEN THE COMMISSION
IS ABOUT TO ANNOUNCE
THE RESTRUCTURING IN
BOTH TORONTO AND OTTAWA,
I THINK IT'S REALLY
UNFORTUNATE THAT THEY
DID NOT RESIGN
HAVING INTERFERED,
WHETHER THE
RULE WAS RIGHT,
OR WHETHER THEY DID THE
RIGHT THING OR NOT,
I THINK THE PERCEPTION
IS, NO MATTER WHAT
THE COMMISSION RECOMMENDS,
THAT THEY'VE IN FACT
HAD AN INFLUENCE.

Hugh says BUT LOOK, IT'S A LONG LIST
OF PEOPLE THAT BROKE THE LAW.
THE PRIME MINISTER OF
CANADA MADE REPRESENTATION
WITH RESPECT TO MONTFORT.
FEDERAL MEMBERS OF
PARLIAMENT MADE REPRESENTATION
WITH RESPECT TO MONTFORT.

Ruth says THE LAW DOESN'T
COVER THEM, HUGH.

Richard says DOESN'T
COVER THEM.
THEY'RE NOT THE EMPLOYERS
OF THE RESTRUCTURING
COMMISSION,
HUGH, IN FAIRNESS.

Hugh says BUT THE POINT OF THE
MATTER IS YOU CAN'T HAVE
A PROCESS WHERE AN
ETHICS COMMISSIONER
MAKES A RULING WHICH
STRIKES EVERYBODY AS
A NEW TYPIFICATION OF THE
NATURE OF THE PROCESS,
AND THEN HAVE PEOPLE WHO
FELL ON THE OTHER SIDE
OF THAT RULING BEFORE THE
RULING WAS MADE, RESIGN.
I THINK NOW THAT THE
RULING HAS BEEN MADE,
EVERYBODY HAS TO
UNDERSTAND HOW THAT AFFECTS
APPROPRIATE COMPORTMENT.
BUT THE NOTION OF
MAKING PEOPLE RESIGN
FOR RULES THEY DIDN'T
KNOW EXISTED AT THE TIME,
I THINK IS UNFAIR.

Ruth says BUT HUGH, I THINK IT SPEAKS
TO SOMETHING FAR MORE
FUNDAMENTAL WHICH IS
THE DECISIONS TO CLOSE
HOSPITALS AND
RESTRUCTURE HEALTHCARE,
HAVE GOT TO BE IN A
DEMOCRACY POLITICAL DECISIONS,
AND CAN'T BE HIVED OFF
TO SOMEONE ELSE
TO BE DONE SOLELY ON THE
BASIS OF DOLLARS AND CENTS.

Hugh says AND I
AGREE WITH THAT, RUTH
BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT
DUNCAN SINCLAIR
AND HIS COMMISSION DECIDE
ON A BINDING BASIS,
THE GOVERNMENT WILL PAY
THE POLITICAL PRICE
FOR THOSE DECISIONS ONE WAY
OR THE OTHER IN THE POLLS,
EITHER UP OR DOWN, AND
THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.
THEY CREATED
THE COMMISSION,
THEY SHOULD BE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE FOR ITS DECISIONS,
AND THEY SHOULD PAY THE
PRICE ELECTORALLY,
EITHER UP OR DOWN,
DEPENDING ON HOW
THE VOTERS RESPOND.

Ruth says I AGREE.

Richard says I AGREE, AND THEY OUGHT
TO PAY THE PRICE FOR THAT
BECAUSE THEY ARE THE
PEOPLE THAT WE ELECTED,
THE PEOPLE OF ONTARIO
ELECTED TO MAKE
THOSE DECISIONS
ON OUR BEHALF.
AND IF WE AGREE WITH THEM,
WE WILL RE-ELECT THEM.
AND WE IF DON'T AGREE
WITH THEM, WE WON'T.
I'VE MADE MY
DECISION ALREADY.

Steve says WELL, I'VE MADE
ANOTHER DECISION.
I'M RE-ELECTING ALL THREE
OF YOU FOR NEXT YEAR.

Richard says GREAT.

Ruth says THANK YOU.

Steve continues I WANT TO THANK RUTH
GRIER AND RICHARD MAHONEY
IN BODY, AND HUGH SEGAL,
IN SPIRIT ANYWAY,
OVER THE LINE IN KINGSTON
FOR HELPING US THROUGH
THIS PAST SEASON UNDERSTANDING
A LITTLE BIT MORE
ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON
DOWN AT THE PINK PALACE.
MANY THANKS TO
ALL THREE OF YOU.

Richard says THANK YOU.

Ruth says HAVE A
GOOD SUMMER.

Steve says A GOOD SUMMER
TO ONE AND ALL.
WE HAVE, UNFORTUNATELY,
ONE SAD PIECE OF BUSINESS
TO ATTEND TO ON THIS
PROGRAM, AND THAT
IS TO SAY GOODBYE
TO LARRY GROSSMAN.
AS YOU KNOW, THE FORMER
PC PARTY LEADER AND LONG TIME
CABINET MINISTER DIED OF BRAIN
CANCER THIS PAST WEEK.
HE WAS JUST 53.
I KNOW I SPEAK FOR MANY
PEOPLE IN THIS BUILDING
WHEN I SAY HOW UPSET AND
SHOCKED WE WERE TO LEARN
OF LARRY'S PASSING.
HE HAD BEEN A FREQUENT
GUEST AND PANELIST
ON THIS PROGRAM.
WE HAD COME TO DEPEND ON
HIS WIT AND INTELLIGENCE.
LARRY, IF I MAY SAY, MADE
OUR PROGRAMS SPARKLE.
AND WE'RE GOING TO
MISS HIM VERY MUCH.
WE LEAVE YOU WITH SOME OF
THE TRIBUTES PAID
TO LARRY GROSSMAN
THIS PAST WEEK.

A clip shows a woman in her forties talking with the press. She has short wavy blond hair, and is wearing a black blazer over a black blouse, and glasses.
A caption reads "Janet Ecker. Social Services Minister."

She says HE WAS A MAN WHO MANY
OF US WERE VERY PROUD
TO SERVE WITH.
I THINK, IN HIS DAY, HE
WOULD HAVE MADE A FINE,
FINE, PREMIER.

A clip shows a man in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair, and wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and striped red and purple tie.
A caption reads "David Peterson. Premier of Ontario, 1985-1990."

He says HE WAS CAPABLE,
HE WAS TOUGH,
HE WAS HARD WORKING, HE
WAS ON TOP OF THE ISSUES,
VERY AMBITIOUS.
AND I THINK I'D HAVE TO
SAY HE WAS A POLITICIAN
TO BE RECKONED WITH.

A clip shows a man in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short white hair, and wearing a black suit, white shirt, black tie, and glasses.
A caption reads "Bob Rae. Premier of Ontario, 1990-1995."

He says EVERYBODY HERE
LOST A FRIEND.
HE TOUCHED ALL OF US
WHETHER YOU AGREED
WITH HIM ALL THE
TIME OR NOT.
HE WAS A
TERRIFIC OPPONENT.
HE FOUGHT WITHOUT
ANY FEAR OR FAVOUR.

A clip shows a man in his late sixties, clean-shaven, with short white hair, and wearing a blue suit, white shirt, and spotted black tie.
A caption reads "Bill Davis. Premier of Ontario, 1971-1985."

He says LARRY WAS VERY MUCH A FREE
SPIRIT IN THE EARLY DAYS,
AND VERY MUCH
HIS OWN PERSON.
THIS WAS ONE OF
HIS ATTRACTIONS,
AT LEAST I FELT SO.
HE HAD CAUSED A FEW
PROBLEMS FOR
THE GOVERNMENT OVER
DOCTOR'S HOSPITAL,
IN SPITE OF THE FACT A LOT
OF PEOPLE SAID THAT
MIGHT HURT ONE'S POLITICAL
CAREER, TO THE CONTRARY,
IT SHOWED ME THE KIND
OF DETERMINATION
IS IMPORTANT IN
SOMEBODY WISHING
TO SERVE IN
PUBLIC LIFE.

A picture appears on screen. It shows a man in his fifties, clean-shaven, with short wavy gray hair and glasses sitting on a couch.
A caption reads "Larry Grossman. 1943-1997."

A production of TVOntario. The Ontario Educational Communications Authority.

Watch: Show #99 "Centre Shift/Ministers & Hospitals"